Learn True Health with Ashley James

On Learn True Health, Ashley James interviews today's most successful natural healers. Learn True Health was created for YOU, the health enthusiast. If you are passionate about organic living or struggling with health issues and are looking to gain your health naturally, our holistic podcast is what you have been looking for! Ashley James interviews Naturopathic Doctors and expert holistic health care practitioners to bring you key holistic health information, results based advice and new natural steps you can take to achieve true health, starting NOW! If you are sick and tired of being sick and tired, if you are fed up with prescription drug side effects, if you want to live in optimal health but you don't know where to start, this podcast is for you! If you are looking for ACTIONABLE advice from holistic doctors to get you on your path to healing, you will enjoy the wisdom each episode brings. Each practitioner will leave you with a challenge, something that you can do now, and each day, to measurably improve your health, energy, and vitality. Learn about new healing diet strategies, how to boost your immune system, balance your hormones, increase your energy, what supplements to take and why and how to experience your health and stamina in a new way. Ashley James from Learn True Health interviews doctors like Dr. Joel Wallach, Dr. Andrew Weil, Dr. Deepak Chopra, Dr. Oz, Dr. Joseph Mercola and Dr. Molly Niedermeyer on Naturopathic Medicine, Homeopathy, Supplements, Meditation, Holistic Health and Alternative Health Strategies for Gaining Optimal Health.
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Now displaying: October, 2019
Oct 31, 2019

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Modified Fasting



  • What is modified fasting
  • What is autophagy
  • Is fasting safe?
  • While our bodies are going through a fast, our bodies are trying detox and cleanse and heal
  • Four day modified fast before chemo for cancer patients
  • Fasting decreases inflammations
  • Intermittent fasting is offsetting the damage to the liver and kidneys
  • Atkins and keto is the same diet
  • Diabetes is manageable
  • If weight loss is a goal, you could do modified fasting once or twice a month
  • Other benefits of modified fasting
  • Refeeding process
  • Hormone balancing effect
  • Book: How to Get The Health Benefits of Fasting Without Going Hungry
  • Antibiotics wipe out good bacteria
  • Who shouldn’t do modified fasting?
  • Eating small meals in a window of 12 hours


In this episode, Robyn and I will talk about modified fasting and its benefits people who are undergoing cancer treatment, people who are trying to lose weight, and people who are experiencing hormonal imbalance. Robyn also shares with us how fasting decreases inflammation and the other benefits of modified fasting.


[00:00:00] Intro: Hello, true health seeker and welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health Podcast. You’re going to love today’s interview with Robyn Openshaw. She’s giving us a free copy of her book. To download her book, go to That’s fastbook. As in it’s a book that teaches you how to fast. But it’s also a fast read. So it’ll be easy for you to remember

Now, Robyn talks about her Flash Fast. And to get the listener discount on that, go to That’s /flashfast as in a very quick fast, Flash Fast. All those links are going to be in the show notes of today’s podcast as well. So if you’re driving or exercising or running around and you don’t have a pen, you can always jump to the beginning of this episode to hear those links again or go to the show notes of this episode to grab them.  

I definitely want to grab that book though. I could not put it down. Robyn sent me a physical copy of it. It’s 70 pages long. So you can finish it in one sitting. And I just couldn’t put it down. It was a really good book. It’s well-written. It’s an easy read. And it is chock full of science and the data. And she is referencing the latest studies showing how we can fast in a way that is the healthiest, that staves off disease. People are seeing now – it’s amazing, people are actually reversing MS, autoimmune disease. There are cases of cancer being reversed. People are reversing type 2 diabetes. We are able to heal our body and do it in a way that triggers our own body’s self-cleaning mechanism called autophagy.

So we get into that in today’s interview. You’re just going to love it. Please share this interview with your friends who have struggled with metabolic syndrome, who struggled with losing weight, balancing hormones, autoimmune conditions, type 2 diabetes, as we talk about how they can utilize a specific type of fasting that isn’t removing food from their diet. It’s utilizing food in a certain way that triggers the body’s own self-cleaning mechanism. And the mechanism the body uses to repair and heal.

So I know you guys are going to love today’s interview, please share it with your friends because I want to get this information out there. There are people who are suffering like I was suffering for so many years. All through my 20s, I was so sick with six different illnesses. And I reversed them naturally with food and with lifestyle changes and supplements. And I wish I’d had this information that you’re about to learn today. Because it would have definitely made my journey a lot smoother and my healing a lot quicker. I know that we can get this information out there and help a lot of people to heal and support their body’s ability to heal itself. Enjoy today’s interview. Thank you so much for being a listener. And go to fastbook to get Robyn Openshaw’s free book that I’m really excited that she’s giving it out to everyone so we can get this information out there and help as many people as possible to learn true health.

Welcome to the Learn True Health Podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is Episode 390.



I am so excited for today’s guest. We have back on the show with us Robyn Openshaw. She’s Green Smoothie Girl. You can go back and listen to our Episode 178 where she taught us the high vibration foods that bring in the nutrients and the energy, and the vibration that brings in vitality, and to do away with the foods that lower our physical vibration. And it was a phenomenal interview. Actually, that was the interview that convinced my husband to go from basically being an Atkins style meat eater to a complete vegan whole food plant based overnight. I came out of that interview and told him what you said. And he said, “I am never eating meat again.” So that is a pretty powerful interview I have to say. And then you came back on the show, Episode 358, to teach us about how to protect ourselves from EMF.

What I love about learning from Robyn Openshaw and she has a wonderful podcast called Vibe, published 16 books, and just constantly coming out with great information. Robyn, you are who I want to be when I grew up. So I just love that you are pulling in the data, the research, the science and showing people how they can change every single aspect of their life, emotionally, mentally, physically to optimize every part of your being to living truly healthfully in a joyful way. So I must thank you so much. I know my listeners love learning from you. And as always, it’s a pleasure to have you back on the show.


[00:05:18] Robyn Openshaw: It’s so nice to be here again, Ashley. And that is high praise. And as you know, I’ve told you this a long time ago, I have a secret fantasy that we co host a podcast one day. I don’t know how to make that happen. It’s just a little throwing that out there.



[00:05:30] Ashley James: That’d be awesome. We have to figure it out. That’d be super great. When you are with your tribe, when you’re with the people that are on the same path, it feels so good. And I know my listeners feel that way, too, being part of the learn health community because they’re finally finding the people that are all really, really interested in gaining health. But not just physical health, all aspects of life. And you exude that. I love following you on Facebook. I recommend listeners check you out and follow you on Facebook. Because the stuff I learned for you every day is wonderful. And you give such great advice. And you ask such great questions. And make us all think, think about the things in our life. Instead of being the ostrich and just digging our heads in the sand and wanting to be put back in the matrix, we have to open ourselves up and start advocating for ourselves.

Now, today’s episode, I have been really excited to do because fasting has sort of become a buzzword. But there’s a lot of misconceptions. There’s a lot of misinformation. And for some people, there’s a lot of fear and belief that we can’t do fasting, especially if someone has an illness like type 2 diabetes. There’s an idea that we can’t do any form of fasting. And that just is not true. And there’s lots of studies to prove that. And you’re here today to make sure that you clean up all the misconceptions, do all the myth busting, and show us how we can utilize fasting to support absolute optimal health.



[00:07:01] Robyn Openshaw: Yeah. It’s a big question. Basically, is fasting safe? And should people be afraid of it? I think mostly people are afraid of fasting because they’ve never – I learned this on a speaking tour. I spoken 450 cities in six years. And I had many, many people tell me they’ve never missed a meal. And that was shocking to me. And I don’t know why it would be. Because I was raised in a very small community of – well, not really – I think there’s, like, 12 million Mormons worldwide. But I was raised Mormon – or LDS is how they prefer to be called. And we’ve fasted for 24 hours the first Sunday of every month. And so for me, it was just no big deal. Not that it’s fun. It’s not fun to go a whole day without food or, let alone, a week without food. And the most I’ve done water fasting is 12 days without food.

But I think that because we live in a time for the first time in the history of the world where people don’t just naturally go without food for long periods of time because we’re not hunter gatherers. And we don’t have droughts and famines. We have just food anywhere all the time, inexpensive food. Even people who are in poverty, many of them don’t, in North America at least, want for food. I mean there’s food banks, whatever. So just most people haven’t gone without food. And that’s not true. The thing to think about here is that maybe the most powerful thing that people were doing for their health, for literally thousands of years, was something they’re doing unintentionally, which is they just would go hungry. I know we’re going to get into why fasting is possibly the most health preventative, disease preventative thing you can possibly do.

But I agree that it’s scary to think about not having food for a week. In the last four years, I’ve done four different water fasts that were between seven and 12 days. And I don’t go out there and talk on radio shows and podcasts about that because I know that nobody else is going to do it. It’s going to be, like, one in 1000. I mean, it’s kind of like my job to research and write about and publish my own experiments when it comes to health and wellness. And sometimes I do my own trials of people. We’re going to get into, hopefully, my own trials of people doing modified fast. But I really wasn’t out there saying everybody should do, like, seven day or 12 day water fast like I’ve done. But even though I’m open to it, and I was raised fasting once a month, I flew to Texas to stay at an ashram just to literally have the temptation removed. It’s not easy. It is not easy to fast. I would agree with that.

And I do want to say since you mentioned diabetes that people who are on some diabetes medications really do need to be careful about fasting. You can’t just take those medications and go and start water fasting for days, or a week or two at a time. You really do need to have some good guidance from your practitioner. And a functional medicine practitioner is going to be a lot more likely to guide you. But there are some contraindications. Most people can fast, no problem. But people are a lot more toxic than they were even a generation ago. You know, it’s no joke that we have 80,000 chemicals approved for use in our air, food, and water. And they’re all in our organs now. And we all have pretty extraordinary levels of heavy metals. Any anybody who’s tested for that knows that we all pretty much have a variety of heavy metals that are highly toxic. So we have risk factors that maybe two generations ago people didn’t have.

But what’s cool and what we’re going to get into today, I know that’s what you want to talk about, is a way that we can fast and that we can get all the benefits of it without just going cold turkey and having nothing but water for a week.



[00:10:48] Ashley James: Absolutely. I’ve done a variety of fasts. And you’re right about the temptation to try to do what only fast at home. Well, still cooking for my husband and our son who’s young, he’s four. But he was a little bit younger when I was doing some water only fasting. And just to be around food is difficult the first few days. And then after that the hunger goes away. But I think the first two or three days can be the hardest in my experience. But also then you have to be resting. If you’re water only fasting, you can’t necessarily get up, get the kids ready, make their lunches, take the kids to school, go to work, work a full day, come home, handle the chores. Just everything that we need to do, all the energy we need to put out there. While our bodies are going through a fast, our bodies are trying detox and cleanse and heal. And so we really have to take a break from life and schedule a time to just maybe lie on the couch or go for a gentle walks or read and not really do a lot. And that is not necessarily reasonable to ask the modern mom or dad right now.

But these modified fasts where you we still get the benefits of the water only fasting are much more doable for the average person. I’d love for you to get into how did you get all this research? And how did you get excited about teaching people about fasting? What happened? Because you’ve been fasting, I think you said, since you were eight. That’s when in the LDS church, eight year olds on the first Sunday of every month spent a whole day not eating or drinking. So that’s just been part of your life. But at what point did you start to get into the science of wanting to then teach people how to fast in a way that’s modified so that they can still get the benefits and still actually do it and make it realistic?



[00:12:52] Robyn Openshaw: Yeah. So my exposure to fasting early on, it was really for religious reasons and cultures since the dawn of time have fasted for spiritual purification. And the basic concept is – and anyone who is exposed to these religions or these philosophies, this will be no surprise – that as you humble the body and, like you mentioned it, that if you water fast, you can’t go out and play a tennis match. I’ve done two modified fast in the last two months where I went out on day two and on day three of my modified fast and played a competitive match and they were both in July and August in the Utah desert heat, middle of the day.

This is not something I would have ever scheduled myself for doing a water fast. And so when I fly to this ashram to water fast to basically get away from my refrigerator and my car – like you can’t even get an Uber there. You’re literally out in the middle of nowhere. I pretty much lie in bed. And I might go for, like you said, a slow walk. I mean, I’m not a competitive athlete. And I play sports between one and three hours really every day besides Sunday. And I’ve always done that. And so for me to be so incapacitated by water fasting, you’re right, I would literally have to take time off work or take a week off work or, like I said, I did I did it for 12 days once. And I did it because there has been more and more actual published clinical research of how powerful fasting is.

For instance, my friends who own True North in Santa Rosa, California. If I were going to go water fast again, I would go there. Because you’re getting medical supervision there. I knew I could do it. I knew I was healthy. So me flying to the ashram in Texas is fine. But I don’t recommend it to people. Because they don’t have any real oversight medically. And some people really should be watched over and your vitals taken twice a day and all that. But they’ve taken 20,000 people through a water fast and if people are into that they should totally do it. However, what I found is the vast majority of people won’t do it. So I was becoming aware.

And then Yoshinori Ohsumi, Japanese researcher in 2016. I’m talking this is new information. This is literally less than three years old. He won the Nobel Prize in Medicine for discovering the mechanisms of autophagy. And I became just as a researcher – and my full time job is research and health and wellness and I’m an author of 16 books. And I became completely obsessed with this idea of autophagy. And I especially been preoccupied with it, because I researched cancer a lot. I have a lot of history of cancer in my family going way back. And I’ve always wondered, like, “What would I do? What are the things that I would do if I had cancer?” And then my cancer research all over the world, a lot of these doctors highly recommend fasting. And so I was curious about the mechanism of it.

Well, when autophagy was discovered and quantified, what we learned is that when we deprive the body of food, when the body is not in a fed state, when it is a fasted state, the body shifts its energy. It no longer has to spend 65% of its energy metabolizing food and taking this raw input and taking it through a lot of different processes so that it becomes mitochondrial energy. We’re talking about the very end points of what that food is going to eventually do. So you free up the body from what it spends 65% of its energy doing. Ad guess what it does, it doesn’t take a nap. It goes into repair and clean up. And we could call that process autophagy, which means self- eating.

And in the process of autophagy, the body’s immune system mobilizes – highly, highly mobilized killer T cells and white blood cells. White blood cells and stem cells are mass produced. And the body goes into tearing down broken parts. On the cellular level parts of cells are stripped down, broken down, metabolized, recycled. But also on an organ level and a systems level,your pancreas, for instance – and this is really exciting for diabetics, pre-diabetics, all of us considering that there are people projecting that by 2050 every single one of us will be diabetic if we keep going at the rate we’re going of diagnosis – the pancreas actually strips down broken parts and rebuilds. And those beta cells become more insulin sensitive. So we literally regenerate parts of the pancreas, functions of the pancreas. We become more insulin sensitive. And there are multiple human and animal trials showing that just from modified fasting, not even going completely without food.

And really what I want to talk about is modified fasting because everyone can do it. And doing it a few days a month is the most powerful thing I’ve discovered in my lifetime of being a health and wellness researcher, the most powerful thing could possibly do to avoid disease, to reverse the effects, the ravages, the symptoms of disease. I mean, I’ll tell you what I think is the most mind blowing thing they’ve discovered is, is repairing myelin sheath – rebuilding myelin sheath. I mean, there are millions of people suffering with Parkinson’s and multiple sclerosis. And all timers. We’re not we’re not getting on top of these problems at all. And the methods of Western medicine are doing nothing for us, for people with Huntington’s disease and ALS. I mean, what a nightmare of a disease. But multiple sclerosis, it’s where you’re developing these lesions in the central nervous system and the myelin sheath is eroding. Well guess what? A few days of doing a modified fast in both animal and humans, we’re seeing rebuilding myelin sheath. That’s unbelievable.



[00:19:11] Ashley James: I love it. It is so mind blowing. I actually had Dr. Goldhamer on my show, Episode 230. And he’s the founder of the True North Medical Center that you mentioned. And he said autophagy happens on day three of fast. And then on day five of fast they see a huge spike in stem cells, the body repairing itself .Which is brilliant. It’s like a self-cleaning mechanism. It’s our own self-cleaning mechanism that the autophagy is digesting pathological tissue, bacteria, and viruses, and also cancer, and unwanted cells that are kind of broken or scar tissue, even cysts. And they’ve seen cystic breasts or cystic ovaries that diminished. So the body’s just digesting scar tissue and unwanted tissue, unneeded tissue.

And then after it does the self-cleaning mechanism then it has this boost in the human growth hormone and in the stem cells. Which actually, what I found fascinating is it protects us from losing muscle mass. Because I think that’s a big fear people have is that they’re going to waste away. “If you lose weight on a fast, it’s just your muscle you’re losing. You’re not losing any fat. You’re just losing your muscle.” That’s a fear people have. And yes, we might have it. There’s a very small percentage of muscle that is lost. But then there’s a protective mechanism that kicks in that stops the body from using muscle as fuel in a fast. And I thought that was really interesting. and he published a study, Dr. Goldhamer, showing a woman who came in with end stage cancer. And 30 days after fasting with him walked out with zero cancer. She went and got scans before and after her 30 day stay there at the clinic. And he published it. And that is just, like, mind blowing because no oncologist is going to tell you, “Why don’t you try fasting?”



[00:21:08] Robyn Openshaw: They’re not. I think they’re going to be. The functional medicine doctors are and they’re putting cancer patients on. And I think that we’re going to see an explosion in this with anybody who’s open to functional medicine, nutritional medicine, are going to start putting people on a modified fast before chemotherapy. And this isn’t even released yet. But Dr. Valter Longo – you’ve mentioned our mutual friend Dr. Alan Goldhamer, and his work is some of what I cite in my new little book. I know you’re going to offer it for free to your readers. You can literally read it in an hour and you get an overview of all of the health conditions that the modified fasting research is showing is super, super beneficial for. And it runs the gamut.

And I want to talk about cancer right now for a second since you brought that up. Because I’m actually telling you this before this clinical trial comes out. But Dr. Longo is the main researcher at USC’s Longevity Institute. And he and Sebastian Brandhorst are behind a lot of the clinical trials. They’re just going to town on all these different, very specific disease states that they study. What happens when you put people on three, four or five days of modified fasting? Johns Hopkins has some great stuff that I also quote in this little 70 page mini book in reversing asthma.

But let’s go back to cancer. The animal studies, usually any hypothesis comes, then you go to an animal study. And then when animals see a major reversal in disease, then you take it into human trial. And that’s what they’re coming out with. They’re going to be recommending a four day modified fast before chemo, because what they found in animals and apparently the human study that they’re coming out with, also really, really exciting results. But three different major mechanisms. Actually, there may be a fourth or fifth. But how it helps cancer patients is several fold. And that is if you deprive the body of food, then the cancer cells and these colonies of cancer cells – and usually by the time somebody is diagnosed with cancer that cancerous growth has developed a vascular system and it’s threatening an organ system. Usually by the time it’s detectable, you’ve got that.

And anybody listening to this, it’s like, “Oh, this doesn’t apply to me. I don’t have cancer.” I don’t want to be Debbie Downer here, but we all have cancer. And most of the holistic cancer doctors I’ve studied with all over the world – which is more than 20 of them- say that your body develops a detectable cancer condition several times during the course of a lifetime. But your body metabolizes. So your body is metabolizing cancer everyday. About 50,000 aberrant cells. Cells that were healthy and mutate. And that could be because of exposure to low grade radiation that we all have from the electromagnetic pollution in our life. It could be like garbage foods we eat. It could be stress. There’s a lot of reasons why cells mutate. We’ve got 50,000 cancer cells forming every day in the average person. And your body is metabolizing it all the way until it isn’t. And when the cancerous growth starts to get the upper hand and the immune system starts to function in a more and more dysfunctional way, so just imagine your immune system is getting weaker, the cancerous growth is getting stronger. Once it’s over about a million cells, that’s when it becomes detectable. That’s when it potentially could compromise some functioning of an organ system.

Well, one thing that happens when you go into autophagy and also ketosis, by the way, when the body is in a fasted state is that cancerous cells can’t put up a shield. And sort of when they when they go into chemotherapy, they’re going to drown in those chemicals. The cancerous cells become more vulnerable as a result of the modified fast. And the healthy cells in the fasted state can put up a shield of sorts. And they become more resistant to chemotherapy. So that’s one of the ways that modified fasting is useful.

Another way that it’s useful is mass production of stem cells increase, like you mentioned, of human growth hormone. Another way that it’s beneficial is that the immune system is strengthened. In a fasted state your white blood cells become very, very active. And other components, the lymphocytes, the killer T cells, like I said. And they all become highly mobilized. They’re hungry. They’re not sluggish. They’re not overfed.

And so we’re going to wait and hear what all the details are of what Longo is coming out with. But he’s basically recommending a four day modified fast now, apparently, for people going into chemotherapy. And so I would be surprised if the oncology industry can continue to ignore the benefits of fasting. Now, I’m not saying a stage four cancer patient who is in cachexia where the body is metabolizing muscle. There’s probably a contraindication for some cancer patients to fast, especially to do a full blown water fast. When they’re in cachexia and the body is sort of breaking down muscle quite quickly, usually, they have people eating extra protein and trying to put on weight to stem that process.

But you’re right, a lot of people are thinking that if – they think a couple things about if they’re fasting. They think that it’s going to slow down their metabolism. And Dr. Jason Fung has proven that, in fact, when you fast or when you do a modified fast for several days, your body’s metabolism actually increases. And people are worried that their body is going to break down muscle. Listen, trust your body to be smarter than that. Your highly intelligent body knows when it’s cleaning up. It knows what to throw out and what to keep. It knows the weeds from the cultivated plants. It knows to not go after healthy muscle tissue. Healthy muscle tissue is extremely durable. Now, it might grow go after some broken down muscle tissue. Because like every other tissue and organ in the body, there’s old skin cells. There’s old cells and tissues that need to be broken down. That’s the muscle tissue that is going to break down.

And let me mention another thing, because you mentioned breaking down muscle tissue and that people are afraid of fasting for that reason. You know what? Another thing that happens is, you know, were studying 2500 people right now who are just starting into our three day modified fast and following our protocol. But before I ever went to a larger group like that, we put 100 people through our Flash Fast, which is a three day modified fast. And it follows all of the science. It follows all the research. Because I collected it all. I analyze it all. And I was like, “Okay. Here are all the principles that all of these researchers like Longo and Brandhorst are using in their clinical trials. They’re getting such great results. And we got to follow that.

In fact, we’re doing one better than they are. Because Longos’s fasting protocol isn’t even organic and ours is organic. So we put 100 people on this three day modified fast and the average weight loss was four pounds. And several of that first group of 100 lost 6.4 pounds. That was the highest we saw. Several people lost that much. Now, you’re going to hear that. And you’re going to say three days of eating – we kept it under 800 calories. And we put them on five mini meals a day so that they never got very hungry. Their average highest hunger level was 3.4 on a scale of 1 to 10. That was their self rating. So you got to ask yourself if you’re scared to do a modified fast, if you’re scared to do a three day modified fast. And you’re like, “Oh my gosh. I’m going to be so hungry. And I won’t be able to exercise. And I won’t be able to take care of my kids. I won’t be able to work.” I’ve done it nine times. I’ve done the Flash Fast nine times. Like I said, I’ve played my competitive sport. I work out every morning. You can do that. I don’t know I would tell everybody to work out super hard. But you can totally be active while you do it. Well, 3.44 average hunger level of scale 1 to 10.

But here’s what I wanted to say because people also think, “Oh, that’s just water weight.” And I want to point out what we’re talking about when we lose water in fasting. We’re not talking about dehydrating the body. When the body releases fluids in the fasting process it’s because of wide scale healing of inflamed tissues. And if you imagine an inflamed cell or an inflamed organ, if you want to go bigger, if you want to step up the ladder and think of an inflamed organ. Imagine that that organ has billions of cells that are trapping fluids because they’re inflamed. So just imagine the outside of the cell is kind of red and angry and injured and trapping fluids. Well, when the fasting process allows you to heal inflammation – and by the way, in that first 100 people we put through the Flash Fast, 100% of them said that they noticed inflammation decreasing or disappearing. And I’m talking about puffy circles under your eyes. I’m talking about joints that hurt. Those are the things that people tend to notice when it comes to inflation. Those are things you feel.

Well, if you’re feeling that your joints hurt, you can guarantee that there are billions of cells that are injured. And so when the body goes into this repair mode and you lose some of that water weight – because I would agree that a minority of that 6.4 pounds is going to be water weight. – what it is, is those inflamed cells healing and releasing dirty fluids. And so it’s not water you want. That water that you’re releasing is dirty fluids from inflamed cells. And it’s a good thing.



[00:31:58] Ashley James: I love it. I love that you can do – anyone can do your fast, the three day modified fast. Even people who are diabetics because they’re not starving themselves. And they’ll have enough energy to still go to work, take care of the kids. Maybe they’ll need to just rest a little bit. Maybe they can’t run the marathon that day. But you still play tennis while you’re on your modified fast. So it just shows that – and the fact that the hunger levels are under four out of ten is phenomenal. But during the three day fast, people are getting great results.

Now, those listeners who have heard other maybe interviews from other people about the ketogenic diet, I know I was on the ketogenic bandwagon early on in the show. So back in, like, before Episode 100 maybe I was talking about ketogenic. And I was doing ketosis. I thought it was the best thing in the world. And then I went to my Naturopath – my husband and I were doing it for a few months. We went to Naturopath and my husband who had had perfect blood pressure developed dangerously high blood pressure. And then we did some more blood work and urine analysis. And it turns out the ketogenic diet had damaged his kidneys severely. And I had an inflamed liver that was very angry and enlarged. And so we found out. And it took me a while. It took me being really diligent with the Naturopath and getting on the protocols. And completely getting off of the ketogenic bandwagon and getting on a whole food plant based healing plants protocol to heal my liver but and to heal my husband’s kidneys and his heart.

And that’s when I woke up and went, “Wait a second. Everyone is kind of this fad.” This ketogenic diet is this big fad and I’ve been promoting it because I’m listening to all these people who also think it’s amazing. And people get some good results during a ketogenic diet. But there are some big negative results that you can get. And so then that’s when I started to look into interviewing whole food plant based people and started to see the light. So some people who are listening go, “Hey. I’m doing ketosis right now. I’m getting great results.” Or, “I’ve done ketosis. I got great results.” But your diet is not this 90 or 100% fat fast. Like some people say they’re fasting but they’re eating coconut oil a day long. Can you just clarify the for us that you could get into ketosis when you’re fasting, even water fasting, you don’t need to eat fat. But that your program is not a ketogenic diet.



[00:34:53] Robyn Openshaw: No, it’s not a ketogenic diet. And I’m really troubled by this fad. And people always push back when I post science about the danger of the ketogenic diet. I mean, US News and World Report every year since this became sort of the reigning fad, it sort of took the limelight away from the Paleo diet, that was the rain raining fad before that. There’s a panel of nutrition experts that collaborate and they rank all the fad diets. The ketogenic diets always almost dead last, it’s like in the bottom three of almost 40 diets that US News and World Report ranks every year. And they don’t just look at do people lose weight. Although it actually does pretty poorly there, too, compared to many other approaches that are more sustainable, that are more healthy, that are more useful in your heading on out to the rest of your life and how you can eat for the rest of your life.

But I have a theory and it’s a theory based on my life’s work of studying nutrition. That if people do well on the ketogenic diet – and generally people do well for a short period of time and they get over committed to it if they lost some weight – if they lost some weight, it becomes religious for them. They’re not listening anymore. It becomes like this very emotional thing. Like, “I lost 10 pounds. Therefore, it’s a good diet.” Well, you can lose ten pounds doing the cotton ball diet, too, or the Jelly Bean diet. But here’s the thing, I believe – here’s my theory – that if people do well on the ketogenic diet and they haven’t yet evaluated how devastating it is for the liver to have to metabolize more fat than the human liver was designed to be able to break down and deal with, that’s just the 70% average ratio of fat that people on the ketogenic diet are eating is really, really hard on the liver. And I’m very sorry that that happened to you. And your husband, I am sorry to say, I’m not surprised. But my theory is that people are, to the extent people are doing well and there’s lots of stories like yours. And there’s course like all the keto rash and the bad breath and the bad smells and all the things that happen when you put your body in a really unnatural state and it’s really struggling. Those are all signs of struggle. It’s not a good way to treat your body. They’re doing well not because they’re over eating fat. If they’re doing well, it’s because they skipped a meal.

The intermittent fasting is a great idea and that is offsetting the damage they’re doing to their liver and kidneys. And the other thing that’s offsetting the damage they’re doing to their liver and kidneys is that if you take someone on a standard American diet, where they’re drinking rock stars or their eating Pop Tarts for breakfast, or they eat a candy bar with every lunch and dinner or whatever it is, whatever your dietary sins are, potato chips, you name it. If you take them off of those things because as bad as I think the ketogenic diet is for over feeding fats and that people say, “Oh, I ate good fats.” Yeah, but you still can’t eat 70% fat and expect your liver to keep up it’s not designed for that. You have to know a little bit about the liver to go into an unnatural state of eating like that. But I really believe that getting people off the processed food and the intermittent fasting is why they’re actually pretty bad diet. They’re overeating fats diet is why they might lose weight or why they might feel better. It’s because they got rid of the processed food. It’s really that simple. And unfortunately, because they get people off of sugar, and stimulants, and alcohol while they’re doing the “keto diet.” The overeating of fats gets the credit for that that it doesn’t deserve.



[00:39:01] Ashley James: Right. And now, the science will eventually catch up and will eventually see. But it’s so new as a fad. We have to remember that it was designed to mimic fasting for epileptic children that were unresponsive to drugs. And its beneficial for a very small percentage of the population. And that these children, in the quality of their life, is significantly lowered if they’re not in a state of ketosis. They created the diet originally, the ketosis – the ketogenic diet originally was created because these doctors were doing fasting with children. They were doing water fasting and they found that the children – because going into a natural state of ketosis when we’re not eating anything – that their epilepsy would get better or significantly lowered amounts of seizures. And then they had to figure out how to modify it so they could still eat because they – I don’t know what it was but legally they couldn’t do fasting with children or something. That’s why the diet came out of basically trying to mimic the benefits of fasting. It’s like why people going after the copycat? Just go to the original source and do a fast and get the benefits from it.



[00:40:25] Robyn Openshaw: Yeah. And you said eventually science will catch up. And I’m glad to hear you being bold and speaking the truth. Because it’s not popular right now to be a critic of the darling diet of the day. But let me just say, because I’m a lot older than you, that the science already did catch up with the last time keto was around with a different name. They put lipstick on a pig, it’s still a pig. The fact of the matter is that it’s the Atkins diet but you add intermittent fasting. Actually, it’s a better diet than Atkins was. Because Atkins in the early days was like eat unlimited hamburgers and cheese, you just can’t have the bun. And for God’s sake don’t have any fruit. And most of us are aware of how Atkins diet went down is lots and lots and lots of studies of people who had done it off and on for years. Here’s the thing, you can’t really separate out the all the animal products that people are in Atkins from keto. It’s the same thing. You can say, “Oh, that was higher protein and this is higher fat.” Keto is higher fat. But you’re really splitting hairs. And if you take a look at what the diet was they were actually eating on Atkins and the diet people on keto, it’s the same diet.

And Dr. Atkins because he was so under fire for the nutritional deficiencies that people on his diet had. He sold people over 60 different supplements. So it was brilliant in terms of a marketing plan. And that people buy his diet and then they were really suffering. And they smell bad. And they were losing energy. They could hardly function. And so he would sell them a whole bunch of supplements. And people did lose weight. And so they just thought, “Oh, this is the price I have to pay, I guess, to lose weight. And people will do anything to lose weight. That’s why diets are billion dollar industry.

But we already know what happened because there’s lots and lots of published studies. I mean, Colin Campbell wrote the Low Carb Myth. Ari Whitten, Dr. Wade Smith wrote Low Carb Fraud. Michael Greger wrote Carbophobia. And these are just digests of all the published research that came out after 15 years of the Atkins diet. It got run off the stage by science. So exactly what you just said. All we have to do is go back and look at the high levels of diabetes that people who did Atkins for long periods of time had ongoing. They had been paying the piper for that. They still are for years and years and years. Much higher rates of heart disease, much higher rates of cancer.



[00:43:07] Ashley James: One final thing I want to say about that diet where it’s a low carbohydrate – and these are the good carbohydrates, like the healthy potatoes and vegetables and fruit, and legumes. Really cleansing and healthy for the body filled with vitamins and minerals and phytonutrients and anti-cancer properties. So when you’re eating a diet that’s almost nonexistent, no carbohydrates. And then you’re just consuming fat and animal meat, which is carcinogenic. And there’s a lot of research that shows that. They’re eating that way. Of course, blood sugar, like A1C hemoglobin – I used to be type 2 diabetic and I healed myself with food. And so I’m really passionate about this.

Because people when they go to their MD are told that they will have diabetes for the rest of their life and they manage it with drugs. But there’s no drug on the market to cure diabetes. You can manage it. And yet if you were to walk out of that doctor’s office and go to a holistic practitioner, they would say to you, “Of course type 2 diabetes is reversible. It’s reversible in a few months, a matter of months. Let’s get you on a healing lifestyle and healing protocol.” And so on a ketosis or an Atkins or ketogenic high fat diet or an Atkins high fat and protein diet, of course, your blood sugar levels will come down. You’re not consuming any carbohydrates. But it is doing damage throughout the body. And it is not addressing the insulin resistance. The insulin resistance actually becomes worse for many people. And then if they go back to eating the standard American diet or just even start eating fruits and adding some carbohydrates in, they will quickly see that that diet did not help them to reverse the diabetes. So they’ll become they’ll be just as sensitive to carbs if not more.

So we have to look at how can we help the body come back into balance. Don’t do extreme things. Some people think fasting is extreme. Fasting is a natural state that we’re used to. And like you said, only up until recently we’ve had access to food for three or more meals a day. But fasting is something that it’s a natural state. This is a natural thing the body wants to do. And when we can aid it, either by doing modified Flash Fast, which is that 800 calories a day – very specific calories, not just inner calories of donuts a day. The coffee and donut diet. It’s not the coffee and donut fast. But that we can take our body back into this natural state of self-cleaning – the self-cleaning protocol to clean out the cancer cells, to clean up the water. And the fact that just in three days, the 100 people that you did this experiment with that 100% saw a decrease in inflammation and a decrease in overall that that water that was in their organs and in their tissue because of the inflammation was able to be released is phenomenal.

So how did they feel after the fast? And obviously they weren’t that hungry. They was less than four to ten, that’s just totally fine. That was the most they were ever hungry was like 3.6, you said on average. But how did they feel afterwards?



[00:46:41] Robyn Openshaw: Yeah. I feel like a million bucks afterwards. In fact, I didn’t intend to do the Flash Fast nine times in the last three months. It’s just that I feel like one million bucks. And then so like, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, I do it. And I’m going and I’m playing 90 minutes of tennis with my team. I generally will do 45 minutes of cardio as soon as I wake up. Sometimes that night, I’ll go to a hot yoga class. Now, I’m not saying everyone should do that. That’s my normal lifestyle.

The point is, I have been astonished doing it that I don’t have to stop doing that kind of thing. But everyone has their own reaction to it. And we have just tons and tons and tons of people filling out the questionnaire and telling us their results. I mean, people who are seeing their hormone systems balanced. And they go into their next period and they can’t believe that they haven’t had a period like that for ten ears. They just sail through it without the headaches, without the PMS. without the cramps. We have people reporting similar things to what we’ve read in the scientific literature which led me to develop the Flash Fast regarding stabilizing their mood. That’s a huge issue for people. And people are embarrassed to talk about it because they don’t want to talk about that they have a hard time controlling the ups and downs in their moods. So we have so many of us who struggle with anxiety and depression.

And those were some of the exciting things that I had read in this just avalanche that’s coming out especially through Longo and Brandhorst at USC about the many, many categories of health benefits from just doing a modified fast a few days a month. We have people who are doing it now monthly. Especially people who have weight they want to lose. If weight loss is a goal, you could do it once a month, you can do it twice a month. There’s no contraindications for that. There’s no problem with that. Like I said, I’ve been doing it three times a month. If you had a few glasses of wine on the weekend and you wake up on Monday morning, you don’t feel great, instead of it taken two days to feel great, do that modified fast and your body regenerates the liver so quickly. You can’t believe how good you feel by the end of the day, Monday. Now, are you going to be hungrier than you are when you eat your normal 2,000 calories or whatever it is? You are. You are. I no longer dread it now that I’ve done it nine times. Like, I don’t even dread it. It’s not difficult. I know exactly what I’m going to eat. I have my five mini meals. And I like them. They’re delicious. They take two seconds to prepare. And so I mean, some of them take two minutes to prepare. And some of them it’s just a bar made from greens, seeds, nuts, vegetables, and fruits. And so that one doesn’t take any time at all to prepare.

But people are reporting to us that they feel energetic, they feel light on their feet, their joints don’t hurt, their brain the pistons are firing. They don’t have that cognitive delay and the sort of mental slowness. Especially after you come out of a weekend, people tend to let down a little bit on the weekend. But the cognitive, the mental clarity, and energy effects of doing a modified fast are super exciting. Before I put the flash [inaudible 00:50:14], before I started doing my own research, there were some trials where the clinicians who ran them found that fasting, also modified fasting, between days two and seven, people in these studies – there are also animal studies so they’re observing behavior instead of self-report – they have an improvement in mood. They have an increase in alertness. And they have a sense of serenity. Those three big things are things that we are now from our first 2,500 people just now going through the process. They’re reporting to us and it’s beyond exciting.



[00:50:59] Ashley James: I love it. What about this fear that after doing a three day fast, we would rebound and overeat? As a – I don’t know – as a way of reacting to it. So it’s like if I eat very little for three days, aren’t I just going to eat more the next few days? Some people are afraid. Maybe they’re overeaters or emotional eaters or they binge eat. And they’re worried that by restricting that they would then binge afterwards. What’s been the experience with your cohort?



[00:51:30] Robyn Openshaw: The interesting thing is that with dieting, we know that that happens. There have been lots of studies that show that people just go face first into a plate of nachos when they’re done. But I want to, first of all, tell you academically why not to do that. But I also want to say that even with water fasting, I didn’t do that. You talked about this stomach shrinking and other phenomena that make you actually not super hungry after a fast. I haven’t experienced that at all. There’s one study that track people doing a monthly cycle of modified fasting who kept the weight off. And they followed them, so in six months – they continued to lose weight, they did not regain it.

There are a bunch of studies – this is one of the things that I think is most exciting about modified fasting – where the insulin sensitivity and other health benefits are long term. The myelin sheath, for instance, these are long term health gains. This isn’t like a little shot in the arm, “O, I eat fewer calories. Of course, I feel better because I lost four pounds or whatever.” The kind of work that the body is able to do when it’s in a fasting state is very restorative. It’s very reparative. And it’s not like we do it once for three days and call it good for life. However – and I’m really advocating for people doing it once a month. Once a month, if you have weight to gain. If you’re completely healthy but you’re just doing it as a preventative, at least consider doing it quarterly.

We at Green Smoothie Girl, we actually feed a child in Zambia through Mothers Without Borders. I’ve supported Mothers Without Borders for many, many years. And I talked to my followers about Mothers Without Borders all the time. They do such amazing work around the world. But specifically, we feed a child in Africa for three days. And we’re talking about AIDS orphans in a place where there’s no public education. And so they’re provided education and food. And for one Flash Fast that when you eat less for three days, I feed a child in Africa for three days in your name. But there are long term weight loss. If you lost an average of four pounds a month doing a three day cycle, potentially that’s 48 pounds in a year just doing a modified fast three days a month. You’re not even addressing the rest of your diet. Now, if the rest of your diet isn’t good, we highly recommend, of course, to a more whole foods plant based diet.



[00:54:15] Ashley James: Refer to Robbins other books.



[00:54:18] Robyn Openshaw: Yes. I don’t want to imply, “Hey, keep your crap diet and just do a three day modified fast.” However, we all live in the real world. I just got back from five days in Cancun with my children who are college students. And I can officially report I did not eat a perfect diet there. And I love that I have a quick reset. I mean the liver is the most regenerative organ we have. And it’s also super, super scary when we turn it to rubber. Or end up with fatty liver disease. It’s hard to come back from those things. But you know what? When we do little fine tuning once a month, I think it’s extremely powerful. I can absolutely tell that my liver is serving me well after I do this three day process. I’m just on point. I find my words quickly because I have to. I have 25 employees and I’m constantly in the media and I need to not be on a decline like most people are in their 50s, at my age.



[00:55:22] Ashley James: Do you find or have people reported that after the three day modified fast, that they are more satiated from eating. That they really do feel like their stomach may be shrunk. And that they’re not – they find that they can eat smaller portions or happier with that. Or is there any kind of reporting on that? I just wonder if the reason why they lose that four pounds on average in those three days but then it stays off. If it stays off then, eventually, they do this fast three days once a month for every month. Eventually, they’re losing fat. Not just water weight because they’re hopefully eating a good diet. They’re losing the inflammation. And you said, it’s restorative, long lasting results. And if they do it consistently, like maybe twice a month or once a month, then eventually they’re losing fat. And I’m just wondering if the reason why it stays off is that it helps to reset our relationship with food. And also physically we just feel satisfied and fuller quicker.



[00:56:34] Robyn Openshaw: I have definitely gotten that feedback from hundreds of people who’ve done our 26 day detox. With the three day Flash Fast, I don’t know that I have longitudinal enough data or enough data to be able to say that yet. But I haven’t heard people say they want less food after three days. But I do not have the experience myself personally. And I also haven’t heard that the flip side is true, which is that they just want to eat everything in sight. You don’t come out of it the next day wanting to eat like crazy.

And here’s what I wanted to say before. I’m glad that what you just asked me reminded me this. I want to talk about the refeeding process. Because there’s if you do a three day Flash Fast and if people are willing to do six days, do two of them back to back. Our Flash Fast costs 30% of what ProLon is. ProLon is the company spun off by Dr. Longo and those guys who the researchers. I don’t know if he owns it or he just endorses it or what, but it literally costs $225 for five days. Ours is like 40 bucks for three days. It’s less than some people are spending at Starbucks. It’s like $13.33 a day. And ours is organic. And there’s isn’t. And I actually like their product. I don’t understand some of the stuff in it like the glycerin drink. I don’t want to drink glycerin. I don’t understand why I have to drink glycerin. Orange flavored glycerin, no less. I mean, I love what they’re doing. And I love Longo’s research. I don’t really understand the ProLon protocol. I don’t understand why it has to cost $45 a day. So I saw that and I was like, “God, I love the idea.” And some people will go and figure it out themselves. And we’re happy to help them with that, too, figure out how to do what – Longo calls it fasting mimicking diet. And you notice I haven’t said that because he has that trademark. But that’s what is in his book. I call it modified fast. I think that’s a simpler, more intuitive concept.

Basically the same thing. But he is very adamant about this. And I think it’s important to bring up that when you take your body deep into autophagy, three days doesn’t take you deep into autophagy like a 12 day water fast does. But it does get you into autophagy. So when your body goes into breaking down broken parts, Longo talks about the metaphor of the wood burning train. So when I interviewed him on my podcast, he said imagine with fasting – or what we’re calling here modified fasting -he says fasting mimicking diet -imagine that your body in a fasted state is like a wood burning train. And you aren’t going to get to the station. You realize you’re going to run out of fuel in the fire. And you’re not going to make it to the station. So what do you do? You rip out a couple of chairs. So you rip out some of the wood chair. Some of the ones that look like they’re old anyway. And you chop them up and you throw them in the fire. And that way you get to the station. Well, then you get to the station and you got two missing chairs. So you have to rebuild them. And that’s the metaphor for what’s going on if you do the three day modified fast.

If you’re feeling ambitious, if you’re trying to reverse a chronic illness like diabetes or MS or whatever your specific reason is, those folks who are trying to reverse a chronic illness they’re really suffering from, those are the ones who are more likely to be willing to do two Flash Fasts in a row. If you’re willing to do six days, great. Go for it. Flash fast was built to be something that anyone will do. I have talked to – it’s about one in ten that I’ve pulled very, very, very informal research here. People who tried to ProLon and most of them dropped out after day three. I, personally, did three days and I couldn’t take it anymore. And I went back and did another two days later. I never finished –



[01:00:40] Ashley James: Of the ProLon. Not of your program. Of the ProLon which has weird chemical glycerin flavored stuff and not whole foods, not nutrients.



[01:00:49] Robyn Openshaw: Yeah. And his is a five day. His is a five day. And my own informal research says people don’t finish the five days. The Flash Fast is built for three days. Anyone will do it. Virtually, everyone finishes our three day Flash Fast. If you want to double it and do six days to get into deeper states of autophagy, go for it. There’s no contraindications for that. It’s inexpensive to do.

However, here’s the thing I want to say about refeeding, where you get to the station, you get to the end of the three days. Now, it’s time to rebuild. You have to be aware that after all that effort by your body in autophagy to break down broken parts in cells, broken, defective, old parts of organs, aberrant cell clusters like small cancer clusters. Your body broke all that down. Now, it needs to rebuild. And so for however many days that you did that modified fast, that many days afterward, consider your body to be in refeeding mode. And you want to make sure that you give your body really quality materials. Because that old saying of you are what you eat is never more relevant than we were talking about the refeeding process after a fast. And so you don’t want to do a Flash Fast for three days and then go out and have nachos and beer for your next meal. You don’t want to ask your body to rebuild tissues out of garbage. So the materials you want to use are primarily greens, vegetables, fruits, legumes, whole grains, nuts and seeds. So plant-based whole foods.



[01:02:42] Ashley James: Exactly. And then we could also choose to do it in the form of smoothies or soups or stews, which are very gentle. Very gentle on the on the gut. I like refeeding in a way that is moist food. Just taking your favorite vegetables and blend it into a soup or a stew and add some legumes to it. I did that this morning. I took a wonderful soup that we made. It was just very basic broccoli, potato, onion, cauliflower, water. Boil it then hand immersion, blender it. And that is the foundation. Either I just drink that. I warm it up and drink that. Or I’ll add – this morning I took that as the base and took a bunch of – I had leftover sweet potatoes, leftover [inaudible 01:03:31], leftover mushrooms, and leftover zucchini and threw that into the soup. And so it became a nice kind of fix stew. And then leftover brown lentils and added some – there’s no salt seasoning from Costco, which is really, really delicious. It was something like 23 herbs I think are in it. And it tastes so good. It tastes really, really good. But it’s very gentle and moist. So it’s hydrating to the body and really gentle on the gut. Potato is really good for supporting the microbiome, the good bacteria.

And this type of fast doesn’t really drastically affect the microbiome. Water only fasting kind of kills off a lot of the bacteria that we have to rebuild. But this doesn’t do that. How about people who have SIBO or gut dysbiosis or Candida, what kind of results do they see on your protocol?



[01:04:32] Robyn Openshaw: I don’t have data like that. We’re too new out there with our specific three day Flash Fast. However, there is evidence that fasting can help repair or seal up that leaky gut disorder. Ad when you starve the body for a period of time, you’re also starving the yeast. And when the body goes into autophagy, we’ve mentioned that it goes after cancerous growth. We’ve kind of focused on that. But also the body can then really go after viral colonies and bacterial overgrowth. Most of us have bacteria and viruses. If all of us got full panels of blood testing, a lot of us would find out we have a Subclinical Epstein Barr. A shocking number of us would find out that we have Subclinical Lyme Disease. We would find out a lot of things that would be disturbing. I know this because I take people to Switzerland and actually get these tests.

And I have found out my own low grade bacterial and viral load that you only think that you “have something” like the flu or whatever when you become ill and you’re in bed. Well, guess what? If your immune system is struggling against a high burden of bacterial and viral load, it just has a hard time doing stuff like staying on top of cancer growth. And another couple of examples that you’re bringing up is, like, that small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. In autophagy, the body goes after that stuff. In fact, when I went to – the last time I was at that ashram in Texas, the fourth time I went, there was a gentleman there named Eric, who had been in the hospital for a month on antibiotics. He had been on antibiotics after antibiotic and it was because he was a heroin addict for many years. I want to say, like, 12 years. He was about my age. And the man looked nine months pregnant. And he showed up in a total desperation because he couldn’t eat anything without looking nine months pregnant. He was thin guy. He was, like 6’4″. And he’s a pretty fit looking guy. He had given up meth a long time before. But because he was so sick from his drug use, he ended up in a MRSA infection. And they just had to just nuke him with every kind of antibiotic there is. So here he has no good gut bacteria. He’s just a disaster. And his long term effects of that, even though he hasn’t done street drugs since then, is that anything he ate would blow his belly up. And he would have all this pain and swelling. And that’s why he looked, well, maybe eight months pregnant. And I actually have a picture of him in a video masterclass I did about our detox. Well, this guy was there too fast for two weeks. And he was there to starve out the bad bacteria that had totally taken over his whole GI tract. And he left there. He texted me weeks afterwards and he said, “I still feel like a million bucks. It’s just a miracle.”



[01:07:51] Ashley James: I love it. Oh, it’s so cool. So many people are suffering with gut dysbiosis and Candida or small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. And this is such a gentle way to get rid of it. Because you go to – even [inaudible 01:08:08] doctors they’ll bombard you with these really powerful herbs to kill it. And then you’re dealing with that and you’re dealing with the die off and it doesn’t feel very good. But this is a natural way to, again, self-cleansing. And it’s part of that – almost like a parasite cleanse, the microscopic parasites. It really does feel like we should be doing this on a regular basis to do that self-cleaning. I mean we take our car through a car wash, especially in the summertime. We’ll pay good money to keep our car clean, to keep our carpets clean, to wash our clothes, or even take our clothes to the dry cleaner. We pay good money to look clean on the outside. But what about on the inside? And that’s what this is. This is just the self-cleaning.

What about those with autoimmune conditions? A lot of listeners have Hashimoto’s and other autoimmune conditions. I know MS is considered an autoimmune condition. And it’s amazing to see that people are able to rebuild myelin while doing a fast. Have you heard any information about people with autoimmune, specifically seeing good results?



[01:09:23] Robyn Openshaw: Yeah. And diabetes too. Yes. There is quite a bit of evidence starting to emerge. And I think that Longo and the researchers at USC are taking on more clinical trials with humans for autoimmune. But you can actually break down broken parts in some of the glands and the organs as well. That’s the principle behind it. That’s the mechanism. And help rebuild a healthier thyroid. Help rebuild a healthier pancreas. I mean, when the liver and the pancreas are rehabilitated and can release enzymes appropriately, when the thyroid is regulated and in balance and producing the right amounts of hormones at the right times, that’s when we see this hormone balancing effect. So there are some exciting, new emerging data points that lead to, my great hope, that as we all embrace a few days of modified fasting – if you don’t want to go cold turkey and do water fasting, then don’t. But that’s one of the major benefits that researchers are discovering is that, your hormone system balances itself. And that’s pretty exciting for people who are on chemical or synthetic drugs.

I mean, I’m a fan of the bioidentical approach to hormones. But what if you could actually clean up these organs and glands that produce the hormones in the first place? What if we could, in the process of autophagy, eliminate a lot of the toxic body burden that keeps our thyroid and many other upstream and downstream organs and glands functioning properly? So they’re just not always doing so much battle. I love the idea when I’m fasting of the fact that I’m just stripping it all down, stripping down the garbage. And I’m enhancing and rebuilding and strengthening the various parts of my immune system that I need to keep me strong going into healthy aging.



[01:11:37] Ashley James: I love that you brought up balancing hormones. And we have a Facebook Group, the Learn True Health Facebook Group. And several members have shared recently their dilemma that they’re on the birth control pill to regulate their period. We have some mothers sharing about their daughters, their teenage daughters who are having too heavy of a period or periods are lasting longer than two weeks. Or the PMS is so drastic, they can’t go to school. And so the doctors put them on the pill to regulate it. Which I’ve had several interviews about the damaging long term effects of being on the pill. And that is definitely worth listening to. You can go to and in the search box type in birth control or the pill and find those episodes. It’s really good for us to fully be informed before we get on any medication, both natural and pharmaceutical. But especially pharmaceutical because it is man made. We have to really acknowledge that there are always side effects.

Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could arm these women with a way to balance their bodies in a completely natural way? I mean, you’re saying that even as simple as a modified fast could support their hormones, could support their endocrine system to come back into balance.



[01:13:05] Robyn Openshaw: Yeah. Absolutely. Because there’s two things to look out. One is your body isn’t producing the right amounts of hormones that are all in the right proportions to each other. Because just throwing some Cytomel at it – or what’s the other one? Not Synthroid. Cytomel and Synthroid, yeah. Just throwing some Synthroid at is not actually solving the problem. But fasting has the capacity to get at the actual problem. The actual problem isn’t just misfire of specific glands that are supposed to serve you. But it’s also the fact that those glands are drowning in chemical toxins, which is another one of the virtues of just stop eating for a few days or eat a lot less.



[01:13:54] Ashley James: Now, I loved your book. You’re giving it to the listener for free. I loved it. I couldn’t put it down. You said we can finish it in an hour. I just didn’t want to put it down. It’s a really easy read but it is chock full of really good information and constant references to the studies. So it’s not just your opinion. It’s not a fad thing. This is absolutely 100% science based. And it’s a really well-written book. And the fact that you’re giving it to us for free is even better. Listeners can go to to get the free ebook.

And then and I want to talk next about your Flash Fast program. Like you said it’s about $40 for three days, which would save me money. Because I’m pretty sure I spend more money on groceries just for myself. More than $40 in three days. So that is probably saving a lot of people money to even just do it, like you said, for three or six days. And listeners can check that out by going to And all these links are going to be on the show notes for today’s podcast at

How many times in a row would it be safe to do your three day fast? Like you said someone could do it for three or six days if they bought two kits and did it back to back. But let’s say someone wanted to just – I don’t know – do it for 12 days or entire month. At what point do you think people should take a break from it?



[01:15:22] Robyn Openshaw: Yeah. So far we’ve only had people who do two of them back to back. But we just released this product two months ago. And I did it because I was so excited about ProLon having read Dr. Valter Longo who deserves a ton of credit for discovering how powerful modified fasting is. And by the way, the name of the book -just so you guys know why I’m saying, “Hey, this is worth an hour of your life to read this.” It will totally deeply commit you to the idea of fasting. The book and Ashley is giving you a link to get it for free. And we send you with your first Flash Fast. We send you a printed copy of it. But it’s called How to Get The Health Benefits of Fasting Without Going Hungry. And Longo deserves so much credit. He’s got a bee in his bonnet about what does it do for this? What does it do for that? What does it do for this other thing? And I think he’s especially going to really enhance the lives of cancer patients. I mean, his animal study, he did a modified fast on all these mice before he then put them through a cycle of chemotherapy. And after, I think, it was four days of modified fasting, he put the mice on. The ones who got the chemotherapy without fasting first, they were all dead. And the ones who did the four day modified fast cycle before chemotherapy, they were all running around in their cages. So that’s what made him go, “Okay. We got to go take this to human beings.”

But I didn’t love his program. And I didn’t understand why when you’re eating less than 800 calories a day. how does it cost $45 a day? I mean, I could eat in a restaurant for breakfast lunch and dinner for that amount and so much packaging – incredibly much packaging. So I was like, we already make at Green Smoothie Girl, we make these products. They’re organic. They’re plant based. We’ve made them and tweaked them and gotten feedback from our followers for years. And I was like, “Okay. If we put this, this, and this and single serves.” And so we tested the heck out of it. I’ve been working on this for a year. I was like, “How can we bring the cost of this way, way down? ” And read the book, you can do a fast yourself. It’s not for everyone to have it be super, super easy. But on the other hand, it’s not for everyone to have to cook their vegetables and prep it and take it to work and all that.

So it is a little bit higher in protein than your average vegan diet. There’s a significant amount more protein in there. But it’s whole food plant based. One version of it has some bone broth in it. And the other version is 100% vegan. And so you can choose whichever one you want. All of them right now are shakes and bars and sprouted flax that you add two shakes. So everything in, all of the ingredients are superfoods, greens, vegetables, fruits, nuts and seeds. That’s the end bone broth in one of the kits. And so for the vegans, don’t buy the one with bone broth in it.



[1:18:30]  Ashley James: But the bone broth is really healing for gut especially if you know you have leaky gut or gut dysbiosis. Any autoimmune condition, just automatically assume you have leaky gut. It’s just really good to just start with healing the gut. So even if you have like distension, like you said that guy who’s thin but he looks seven months pregnant. Anything that has to do with healing the gut and if you’re not vegan, go with the bone broth because it is so healing for helping to close up those gaps in the in the microvilli.



[01:19:04] Robyn Openshaw: There’s twice as many people choosing the bone broth one than the vegan one. And my assumption is, it’s because that’s the number of people who are noticeably suffering from gut issues. I mean, anyone who’s been on antibiotics in the last 10 to 20 years, most people haven’t really recovered from that. It takes some serious work to recover from antibiotics. And I mean, the average American is being prescribed an antibiotic every 11 months at this point. Actually, that’s American children. I don’t imagine that American adults are much different. So antibiotics, they really wipe out whole swaths of those good bacteria that keep us in balance so that our immune system can do its job. Most of the immune system is in the gut, which I’m sure you’ve said that like 20 times in your – what have you done, 500 episodes now, Ashley?



[01:20:00] Ashley James: We’re approaching 400 episodes. But yes, I believe it’s something like 70% of the immune system is surrounded by the gut. It surrounds the gut and there’s an absolute relationship between gut health and immune health. And you can’t fix one without the other. You have to address gut health. And what’s wonderful is a whole food plant based diet has all the wonderful prebiotics to support bringing the good cultures in. And a fast helps to starve the bad stuff. So we can do this . We don’t need to be on crazy medications. We can do this naturally.



[01:20:41] Robyn Openshaw: And I wanted to mention that too. Is if you’re interested in rehabilitating gut health, you got to eat starchy foods. And so these foods are high in fiber. I mean, it’s really very simple. People think they need some kind of medication and to go to the functional medicine doctor to rebuild their gut. But please don’t forget the key in all it, most people are not going to bring their gut health back just by taking probiotic, even if it has prebiotic. Even if it’s alive. Like, I’ve done Facebook demos where I show several brands of probiotics and most of them are dead. Most of them won’t culture milk. But even if you get a good living probiotic and it’s really broad ranging. It has a bunch of different types of probiotics and it’s got good prebiotics for it to feed on. You still need to eat that the bulk. You need to eat the fiber so that there’s something in the gut for the probiotics and the cultured foods that you might be eating to build on. And if you eat the standard American diet, it’s extremely scarce in that fiber. I mean. average American is getting 11 grams a day of fiber. And you got chimpanzees who might eat hundreds of grams of fiber Their gut isn’t a whole lot different than ours. And so we’re very, very similar to the primates. And so 11 grams. I mean, just your court of green smoothie a day, you’re going to double your fiber right there. So habits like that. Veg salads, sweet potatoes, rice, regular potatoes, they’ve been demonized but they’re really great for gut rebuilding. Starchy foods, they’ve gotten a bad rap because the last two fad diets are anti-carbohydrate. But you know what? That’s a lot of why everybody’s suffering with gut issues is there’s people scared of carbohydrates. That’s where the fiber is, friends.



[01:22:44] Ashley James: These are foods that support a healthy gut biome. So people are on at least one antibiotic a year and then they’re not eating any foods to help support healthy gut bacteria. And then they end up with a slew of medical conditions. Because if we cannot digest and assimilate our nutrients, we can’t build ourselves. And what’s really interesting is that the healthy gut bacteria actually help us. There’s about between two and three pounds of bacteria in our body that isn’t us. Like, cells that aren’t us. It’s just pretty crazy how much of our gut health has nothing to do with us. These are bacteria. But that they are part of our digestive process that without them we could not assimilate and absorb nutrients. So we need them. This is a symbiotic relationship. We can’t be sterile. We need to think about there’s an entire colony inside us that helps to break down and assimilate and absorb nutrients.

What’s really interesting is if you go on a farm and eat, let’s say, strawberries. You pick them right out of the ground. It’s all organic. There’s bacteria on the strawberry. And when you eat it, it gets into your gut. It starts to populate in your gut. That bacteria on the strawberry that’s native to being on the strawberry helps us to break down assimilate the nutrients from strawberry. So the more variety of fruits and vegetables we eat, especially fresh ones – organic and fresh and as fresh as possible right from the ground. So that’s why farmers markets and having your own garden if you can or finding friends that do have their own garden and eating foods that are still alive will also help to repopulate the gut. But then also help you assimilate that food. That’s why people have done studies where they ate nothing potatoes for a year and they weren’t nutrient deficient, which is mind blowing.

I love that you brought up fiber. I’ve had a man on the show twice and he has been doing – he spent $20,000, he’s a school teacher. But his is a masters in acupuncture but now he’s a school teacher. But his passion is doing fasting and proving that fasting is healthy. So he spent about $20,000 of his own money doing these blood tests every six months. Retests the PCBs and bisphenol A, and all of the toxins, glyphosate, all these toxins that are on our food and in our water and air. And he tests his levels. And he’s doing these 30 day fast and then testing to see how long these – how much progress he can make. And what he noticed is that, you do a long fast once a year and he’s a vegan. He eats whole food plant based. So he’s always eating cleaner. He was eating organic. But he still had these high levels of heavy metals and pollution, basically, in his body. And he noticed that he was getting kind of good results. But then he decided to do, “Okay. I’m going to do a fast and sauna.” And then he would watch and see after every six months taking his blood work. And he’d see that was getting even better results. Then he added something to absorb the toxins in his gut. Which he had an activated charcoal and he got the best results. So the best results, absolutely, sauna therapy and fasting. He did like a big fast once a year.

But using activated charcoal during the fast because our liver takes toxins out of our body when we’re fasting, puts them in our bile, and then shoots them into the small intestine is trying to get rid of them. But the problem is our body wasn’t designed to recognize all these toxins. And so to make itself more efficient, the body then reabsorbs the bile. And with all the toxins back in – reabsorbs most of it and reuses it. Because bile is kind of costly for the body to make.

And so fiber, if we did a kind of detox like a modified fast which is your – I love your product, specifically because it’s high in fiber. Fiber binds to and stores and holds onto the bile so that we cannot reabsorb those toxins of the body’s trying to get rid of. And that’s why I really love your fast because people can do it and still go to work. They will still have enough energy to get through the day. In fact, they start feeling even better. They’re dropping inflammation and water weight so they’re noticing that they have less aches and pains and they have more mental clarity. They’re probably saving money. Because saving money on food while still eating, like your 800 calories of organic food. And then their body is – the fiber is able to pull out the toxins and get them out of us while also the same kinds of fiber also supporting the healthy gut biome. So there’s just so many reasons why someone should try your Flash Fast. Are there any reasons why someone shouldn’t do it? I mean, we just really want to be up front. Is there other people for whom this wouldn’t be good for?



[01:28:10] Robyn Openshaw: Pregnant and nursing women. Nursing being like when breast milk is most of the babies calories. When baby is recreationally nursing later, probably not a problem. But pregnant nursing moms, stage 4 cachexia patients, people in renal failure. People on diabetes medications, you got to work with your doctor. You can go to your doctor and say, “I want to do this fast. What do you think?” And have your doctor watch your meds because you’re probably going to – and this is not me saying to get off your meds, okay? This is like, talk to your doctor, do not go off of your medications without the competent care and oversight of a doctor you trust. But the research is showing that people are getting off of diabetes meds. There are clinical trials showing that people reversed the symptoms of both type 1 and type 2 diabetes I mentioned that one study shows regeneration of the insulin producing beta cells. And then a 2017 study and this is animal study, but four day modified diet triggered changes in mice. That led to – I’m reading from the book here – led to pancreatic beta cell regeneration and the return of insulin secretion. These are changes that correspond to the reversal of type two diabetes. And so I think that diabetics should be completely fascinated by the idea of a fast. I wouldn’t go do a water fast while you’re on meds. So with that one with diabetics, I would say work with a practitioner. I’m not saying don’t do it. I’m not saying do do it without any worries in the world. I’m saying do it with some advice from your practitioner.



[01:30:15] Ashley James: Absolutely. I love this. I had a client who was very thin and she wanted to reverse some blood sugar issues but she was-  she really couldn’t afford to lose any more weight. And so this idea of water fasting scared her. And she actually called Dr. Goldhamer and talked to him. And he said he did not recommend that she did a water only fast. He recommended that she did a modified fast, exactly like you’re saying. That she can still gain the benefits, the healing benefits to her pancreas and her insulin sensitivity through the exacting – through of the what you’ve designed the Flash Fast where there’s a modified calories. But the calories are designed to be healing for the body.



[01:31:02] Robyn Openshaw: Well, a lot of people who are underweight, like people think, “Oh, you just have a quick metabolism.” No. I’m sorry to say that a lot of the people in our culture who are underweight – and watch them, watch them eat. I mean, unless their gut hurts, which some of them have gut dysbiosis so bad that they literally don’t enjoy eating because eating hurts. But besides the fact that some of them are eating less because eating causes suffering for them because of their gut dysbiosis. The other thing that’s going on is that food just goes right through. And people know that. Even people will just be like, “Oh, food goes right through you.” And they may have diarrhea and they’re not absorbing the nutrition.

But here’s the thing about a modified fast, it allows that leaky gut to repair, to seal up. And if that happens, then you can absorb nutrition better. And you can, therefore, achieve a more healthy weight. So all the people – the two-thirds of America that is overweight looks at the skinny people and they assume that skinny people are eating less food than they are or eating healthier food than they are. And the crazy thing is that the people who are thin – anywhere from thin to super thin – the vast majority of them are actually thin to super thin for the exact same reasons that two-thirds are overweight. Is that the food they’re doing is doing so much damage but just it’s a flip side of the same coin. So don’t assume that the thin people are healthier than overweight people.

The fact of the matter, certainly there are people who are thin because they eat a very disciplined diet, of course, or very healthy diet. But there’s a significant number of them who are actually not absorbing nutrition. So I am not surprised that Dr. Goldhamer actually recommends that because – then you can get some of that gut sealing effect and that gut healing effect. And so you can absorb nutrition and get up to your healthy weight. Because a lot of people are underweight because they aren’t getting the nutrients they need even though they’re eating the food.



[01:33:12] Ashley James: I love it. Now, listeners can get the free book to learn more about how to do this Flash Fast by going to

Tell us a bit about the Flash Fast, which I think that the majority of listeners will just do it. Just buy the kit. You’ve made it incredibly affordable. It’s all very healthy ingredients and organic and just follow your program for three days. So it’s like this no brainer. They don’t really have to do much. Like you said, it’s a maximum two minutes of preparation to do their mini meals. And they can do it any day of the week and still maintain going to work. So it’s not disruptive. So tell us a bit more about the specific things they would be doing during the day with your kit.



[01:34:06] Robyn Openshaw: Yeah. I like to do it Monday through Wednesday. Like I said, I’ve done it nine times the last three months. And some people might say that’s kind of obsessive. But I’m the researcher who flies to Texas and sits in an ashram and doesn’t eat any food for 12 days too. And some people call it biohacking. I call it experimenting for science. You’re going to get this kit. We’re giving your followers on the link that you give them $10 off their first kit. The retail price is $70. You can get $10 off your first kit or you can get $30 off or 43% off if you sign up for Subscribe Instant Save. So subscribe Instant Save means that every single one that you get is $40, just $30 off. You also get the book in that first package How To Get The Health Benefits Of Fast Without Going Hungry.

You get a little one page insert that tells you not only how to do it, which is like, so easy. But you also have a couple several recipe ideas in the right column telling you ways that you can make it taste different. You can add handfuls of greens, you can add up to two vegetables a day, which I kind of highly recommend. At the beginning of my three day Flash Fast on Monday morning, I’ll steam a whole head of cauliflower and I’ll steam a bunch of asparagus. Now, why cauliflower and asparagus? Because those are the vegetables I like best. So I’m talking about non starchy vegetables. So you can add up to two servings. And the reason for that is that your five mini meals give you 650 total calories. And the research coming from all these different institutions, especially USC, are showing that you can eat up to 800 calories a day to get the benefits. I would love to tell you that men can eat a different number of calories than women. And I would tell you that if I had seen the published evidence about it, but I haven’t seen anybody do that study yet. So unfortunately, right now, all I can tell you is a maximum of 800 calories so you can add to non-starchy vegetables. Like, I do the asparagus. I’ll also cut up a cucumber. You can do stuff like that unlimited. You can cut up a cucumber. You can add handfuls of spinach. You don’t have to do any of those things.

You could also instead of the vegetables, you could add one fruit. And I like to sometimes do my one fruit being a banana. It’s an organic banana. And all this is in your kit – all these little tips. But I cut an organic banana with the peel into my little shake. So my little superfood shake that’s superfoods and plant based proteins. And it’s got some little bit of fruits and vegetable extract, blend that up with a handful of greens. Sometimes I do two. Sometimes I do my two shakes at once. That way I only have to whiz it up in the blender once. But I’ve got two meals. And then I just have it there at my desk or in the fridge to just get my other one out. And then you have a bar that’s super delicious. And you’ll probably, at the end of your Flash Fast day, “I want these bars. I want to have them for my kids. I want to have them in my purse.” They’re the healthiest bar that you’ve ever ordered. And again, organic, everything in it organic. The whole bar is certified organic. And again it’s vegetables, fruits, superfoods, nuts and seeds. Delicious.

Pretty soon we’re coming out with two soups. And they’re high protein plant based soups. And I think they’re quite lovely and quite delicious for those who want something hot in their Flash Fast. But anyways really quick, really easy. I like to do it Monday through Wednesday. You could do it any day that works for you. The reason I like Monday through Wednesday is I don’t really have a social life then. I’m pretty much just at home working. And I don’t have to say no to business lunches or whatever. If somebody reaches out to me for a business lunch, I say, ” Sure. Thursday or Friday, what works?” And if people reach out to me wanting to go to dinner, I’m like, “Sure. Anytime on the weekend.”

And so let’s see what else should I tell you. So keep it under 800 calories. Keep it 90 to 100% plant based. Keep it organic. Make sure it’s high in fiber. Make sure, for satiety purposes, you’re eating small meals in a window of, at the most, 12 hours. So I’ll eat it like 9:00 a.m. And then my last meal will be like 6:00 p.m. The only time I get significantly hungry – if you just follow the plan, eat the five mini meals, space them out. The only time I get really hungry – and again, I probably only get really hungry because I am playing sports every single day that I’ve done the Flash Fast, all nine times. But I get hungry about 9:00 p.m. So you know what I do? I go to bed early.



[01:39:00] Ashley James: Yes. Yes. That’s so good. I love that. Those are just two tips that you could do every day even without the fast. love starting my day – I’d say about four days a week, I start my day off with steaming a pound of vegetables, non-starchy vegetables and that’s what I eat first. And then when I’m hungry next, I’ll just eat like potato, brown rice, beans, something like that. But I I’ll start my day with a pound. And pound sounds a lot, but it’s maybe two-and-a-half cups. It’s not that much. And I actually really enjoy the flavor. But you can always add herbs, super simple seasonings to it. But I noticed that when I start my day off first thing in the morning, obviously, a glass of water and then steamed vegetables and eat them, my body buzzes. It buzzes. It has energy. It just feels – it really rewards me almost immediately. I can feel it working. I can feel the difference. And then going to bed at 9:00 is like magic. It’s magical. And people will stay up crazy late. And right around 10:00 p.m. is when our cortisol kicks in. So we have that second wind. And if we stay up until 10:00, that is that magic moment where we have now screwed ourselves for good sleep. It really does.

Because we’ll stay up watching TV or looking at our phone or computer. But at 10:00 p.m. – I don’t know if people noticed – they got like a second wind and they’re like, “Oh, I’m not tired. I don’t need to go to bed.” And then it’s like midnight. Because the body goes, “Oh, we’re up late because we have to run away from the bear. We have to survive some kind of situation where we need to be awake.” Because why on earth would we be awake at this hour if it wasn’t for the fact that we needed to fight the bear? And so the body turns on the stress response and stops making melatonin and just get this kick of cortisol. So if we can get in bed by 9:00 and, hopefully, fall asleep soon after, then our body goes into deep restorative sleep. We don’t have that exhaustive spike of cortisol. And then we can wake up maybe a little bit earlier and get all the things you wanted to do done at the end of the day. Just do it at the beginning of the day. But it’s so healing to do that. So I love those two points. I think we should do them anyway regardless of if we’re doing the Flash Fast or not

Now, you talked about this subscription where someone can get it once a month so that they can do this healing, especially people have weight loss or really long term health goals. What’s the feedback you’ve been getting by people who’ve been doing it for more than one month?



[01:41:50] Robyn Openshaw: Well, I mean, we only released it the end of August – end of August? End of September? So we don’t have longitudinal data. So I can’t say. However, the studies that Longo does tend to be one cycle a month. And I’ve seen some of the other researchers, like Johns Hopkins, some of those researchers, they don’t all do the exact same thing. But I see these health gains coming out. Basically, what I’m seeing is a once a month and some cases with significant illness, I’m seeing them putting subjects on a twice a month cycle of modified fasting. Now you have to be fairly motivated to do a three day Flash Fast twice a month. So you know, either you’re just a person who loves little health experiments – like I do – and you’re really super committed to your health. Or you have a significant health challenge. So if that’s you, if you’re in either one of those categories, and you’re like, “Yeah, I will. I’ll do it once a month.” I highly recommend people get on a once a month modified fast to really gain all the health benefits of it. And with weight loss, there’s no reason why you can’t do it twice a month.

And I think I failed to answer your question earlier when you asked, how often can you do this? Honestly, you could do it long term. I mean, listen, there are prisoners of war who lived like 10, 15 years longer than the average person. And they think it’s because of low calorie, like chronic long term calorie restriction. I mean, did you ever read that novel Unbroken? About that prisoner of war, Louis Zamperini. He just died not long ago. Just a fantastic book. Laura Hillenbrand wrote it. She’s the same author of Seabiscuit. But this guy, Louis Zamperini, who was an Olympic runner and then he went to World War II. He ended up in a concentration camp – not a concentration camp. That’s an obviously –



[01:44:00] Ashley James: Prisoner of war camp?



[01:44:02] Robyn Openshaw: Prisoner of war camp. Thank you. And the Japanese fed him nothing for four years. He would volunteer to do laundry all day so he could lick the starch off his fingers from the spray starch cans or whatever. So these are people who are chronically calorie deprived. And obviously, we’re not going to do that. Obviously, you’re not going to go four years with essentially no calories. But the guy lived to be, like, 90 something. And obviously that is a case study and it proves exactly nothing.

But if we know one thing about longevity, it’s people with chronic calorie restriction. So there is no contraindication for people to eat 800 calories or less for a long period of time. And if you don’t feel well, that’s how you know to stop doing it. I don’t think I’m really going to have a whole lot of people who are going to suddenly eat 800 calories or less for long periods of time. But if you did it twice, if you did it three times in a row – I mean I’ve done water fast for 12 days. And it’s the deeper states of autophagy. I mean, Dr. Thomas Lodi, the Columbia train medical doctor, the first thing he wants people to do when they’re diagnosed with cancer is go do a 30 day water fast. Literally eat nothing for 30 days. So I’m not worried about people doing the Flash Fast too many times because, remember, you’re getting nutrient dense food, you’re getting 800 calories. You can pretty much do anything.

I met a woman, she’s a medical doctor. She came to my Swiss retreat that I’ve been doing for eight years. She had my Swiss retreat two summers ago. And her husband who was also a medical doctor had not eaten any food for 70 days. He went to work, the whole thing. He lost like –  I don’t even know how many pounds – somewhere around 100 pounds, maybe it’s more like 70 or 80. But did not eat food for 70 days. And she said he’s felt completely fantastic.

And people who are really into water fasting will tell you that you know when it’s time to stop fasting, it’s when you don’t feel good anymore.



[01:46:05] Ashley James: I love it. So yeah, so doing three day stints a few times a month of 800 calories. The very specific calories that are dense nutrition and high in fiber and organic and non-GMO, and really super foods and designed to nutrify the body, nutrient dense calorie restricted. That is in no way going to throw someone into some kind of deficiency. The blue zones – a lot of them – these blue zones where they’ve documented people living with almost no disease well into their hundreds. They all live in a calorie – they have calorie restriction. They have times of famine where they fast because that’s what they have to do. Or they only eat one meal a day. So we’ve never seen a gluttonous society eating thousands of calories a day every day, several meals a day, live longer disease free than the rest of the population. That’s part of this habit. This health habit is part of long term health.



[01:47:16] Robyn Openshaw: Right. None of the blue zones eat to excess. And all of the blue zones eat 90 to 100% plant based. And a lot of people want to ignore that because they’re – not only a lot but maybe even a majority of health and wellness experts out there, they want to just – the denial about the massive body of evidence that says we’ve got to eat mostly plants. I’m not going to say all because I don’t think the evidence proves that we have to eat 100% plant based to be healthy. I don’t think they reprove that. I, personally, rarely eat animal products. And if I do It’s generally because I’m out traveling or whatever. But the longer you do it, the more you just don’t resonate with those animal products anyway. Like, eating animal flesh just doesn’t appeal to me anymore after, literally, decades of not doing it. It doesn’t smell good to me. It doesn’t look good to me. I don’t crave it. I, certainly, in my 20’s was eating as much of it as anybody was two times a day, probably.

But yeah, the blue zones eat 90 to 100% plant based. They eat clean, close to the land, not sprayed, not processed kind of food. And  they had periods where they eat less. And they probably are a lot more in tune with their body because they’re not constantly upping and downing.

You said do people have negative reactions. And I do want to say this, because we have a Facebook page with two health coaches who support our Flash Fasters. And not all the 2,500 people who’ve gotten themselves a Flash Fast in the last month since I told my audience about it – a month to two months as I told my audience about it. Not all of them are in there. But I think close to 1,000 are now. And the one thing is the caffeine drinkers. Because we tell them during that three days, if you want best results get off the caffeine. Well, here’s the thing, if they go off the caffeine right at the same time that they do the Flash Fast, they’ll tell us about their headache. And it’s a little bit frustrating to me, because I’m like, “Well, it would be really great if you could have gotten off the caffeine a few days before.” So that’s what we recommend. But then people don’t do it. Because I swear, you can’t you can’t pry coffee out of some people’s cold dead hands. It’s become this American staple. Like, what is it? Two-thirds of Americans drink an average of two cups of coffee a day. Maybe it’s even worldwide. I think it’s literally like the Western world. And so coffee is such a staple.

But here’s the thing, if you want your ducts to dilate, you want the most amount of detoxification during the period of time that you’re dedicating to the Flash Fast, best if you’re not coming off of coffee where your neurological system is going to be reactive. As your body is like, “Oh good. She’s not dumping caffeine into here anymore.” Which is dehydrating by the way and which it dilates some vessels. I mean people like what it does for their digestive system. But the long term effect is energy depleting. And it’s dehydrating. And we are trying to hydrate and to dilate and relax ductwork to allow for the flushing of the kidneys and the flushing of the liver. And so we ask people to stay off the coffee. If you’re like, “No, can’t do it.” Then do the Flash Fast with the coffee. I would rather have you do the Flash Fast with coffee than not do it at all. However, if you’re willing to go off the coffee for a few days first so that you realize that it’s your coffee withdrawal or your caffeine withdrawal. It’s not a Flash Fast doing that to you. That’s where my frustration comes in.



[01:51:03] Ashley James: Absolutely. My husband was addicted to coffee. He was drinking 90 ounces of it a day. And this was the strong stuff. We’ve been married for over 11 years and he kind of jokingly complains that I’ve taken everything away from him. Because when I met him he was drinking three Monster Energy drinks a day, venti coffees from Starbucks, he had some other unsavory habits with tobacco and sugar, addicted to ice cream. And so just the standard guy thing. He was a carpenter. And he was, you know, just the standard guy thing. Eating only meat and fries and nachos and cheese, things covered in cheese. So I don’t think I ever seen him eat a vegetable until I came into his life. And so I started with sugar. I took away sugar from – when I say take away, I showed him. I showed him the light. And he decided to do the challenge and try life without sugar, seeing how bad it was. He just didn’t know. And so we got rid of sugar then we got rid of ice cream addiction. And that was fun. I used an NLP technique called Like to Dislike. I neurologically made him be repulsed to ice cream and he couldn’t walk down that aisle in Albertsons for over a year without feeling like he was going to vomit. So he just completely gave up ice cream cold turkey, which was great. And then giving up dairy. And then giving up fried food and tobacco and alcohol – that was another one. He would drink beer every day and so that was gone.

And now finally, he’s like this clean vessel. Ad caffeine was the last thing to go. I mean, he held on to it. He got rid of all that stuff over the last 11 years. And he’s just this clean vessel that just needs nothing but plants. And doesn’t have any vices at all. He doesn’t touch processed food at all. But he was still doing coffee and so we got rid of coffee. And his headache lasted two weeks constant. And so I read up on it because I was a little worried. And it says basically after – if you really are this consistent coffee drinker and you get off of it, the blood vessels in your brain contract or dilate or they do something where they’re just like freaking out. And so your brain is just getting an abnormal blood flow. And that’s what’s causing the headache. So it’s an abnormal blood flow to the brain. And he pounded back the water and just powered through it, went cold turkey. Because he’s one of those guys, he’s either on or off. There’s no just turning it down a little bit. He’s either doing it full blast or he’s not doing it at all. And probably, why it was so easy for him to go vegan just total overnight transformation.

But now he doesn’t need it. He doesn’t need it. And his sleep is better, obviously. But he just notices his heart rate, his respiratory rate, everything is an optimal levels, and he sleeps better. And he now has – this is the funny part – he now has more energy. And that’s because it does, like you said, we think it gives us energy, gives us that boost, but it really exhaust our adrenals. And so when we need an energy boost at our house, we steam a pound of vegetables each or we make a smoothie. And we noticed that our body feels vibrant and gets a jolt, like a really cool rising in energy from these nutritious foods. So I love your protocol because even on your Flash Fast we can be raising and elevating our energy levels using non-stimulants. Using food, which is what our body supposed to use to make energy from.



[01:55:07] Robyn Openshaw: Yeah. Exactly. I mean, how impressive. How impressive that he got off all that stuff. I mean, he basically went from one end of the spectrum to the other. It’s really, really inspiring. It’s too bad he didn’t do a documentary about it. I mean, it’s like my friend, Drew Manning. I don’t know if you know him. But he’s here local. And he’s a longtime friend of mine. And he wrote the book Fit To Fat To Fit. And he was like this body builder. He was a personal trainer. And he purposely gained 70 pounds. He went and did all this national media about it. He purposely gained 70 pounds to feel what his clients felt. And then he lost it again. He’s a super ripped, super gorgeous guy. And then he went and did that. And he just kind of showed how he gained the weight. He just went face first into a giant – an entire box of cereal in the morning. And giant burgers and fries at night, and whatever. So your husband did the exact opposite. And it’s really inspiring because it just goes to show you that these things that we think make us happy, like, “Oh, I need sugar because it makes me happy.” Or “I need alcohol so that I can do social things.” My guess is he probably still does social things without the buzz and that’s really –



[01:56:24] Ashley James: Well, he’s a high introvert. So alcohol was never social to him. It was all an escape. And so we’ve had long talks about – me too. I mean, It’s both of us have been on this health journey. But we both talked about why do we use this? What is it giving us? Why is it this crutch? So whether it was sugar or overeating or emotional eating, or whether it was the Starbucks or the alcohol or tobacco or whatever it was, it was why do I run to this? And what is it masking? And since we removed it – also, we didn’t have this crutch. So we both had to talk about, “Well, what kind of strategies can we build on our life now that allow us to face things instead of put our head in the sand and kind of numb our emotions.” So we do a lot of processing and talking together. And that, I guess, has made our relationship even stronger.

So my thing has always been like, we’re on this health journey but health isn’t just physical, it’s emotional. We have to address the emotions because there’s absolutely – you can’t remove emotions from food and substances that we constantly use. And the way food is designed nowadays, it’s hyperpalatable and designed to hijack the brain. And so we often we’ll go to food. It’s socially acceptable to go to McDonald’s and have a shake when we’re feeling upset with our boss or when we’re feeling dissatisfied with our life purpose. Instead of actually face it. So we’re using food as a drug. And we use these substances every day, like coffee or alcohol or like legal substances every day, and now, of course, pot is legal and other substances are becoming legal. And so a big part of my healing journey has been to remove what’s unhealthy but then also face why I was using it in the first place. And so my husband has been doing that as well. And it’s been a wonderful journey.

I love you, you know, you point out that you’re kind of experiment on yourself. I’m always experimenting on myself too. And that’s what’s been so great is that when we’re willing to do these experiments and we’re willing to change our diet and try new things that we often find ourselves. We get to strip away so much that isn’t us anymore and it’s not serving us anymore.



[01:58:39] Robyn Openshaw: Yeah. I love that.



[01:58:42] Ashley James: You’re Flash Fast is wonderful. I really do love it. Everything in it is delicious, by the way. So I am a really big fan of it. And I love all the products you’ve created. I think you’re just stand alone. Your bars are delicious and they’re these whole food – superfood bars. Your smoothies are wonderful. I love everything that you create because you are so diligent to make sure that every ingredient is clean. You don’t just put a filler in there just because it’ll make it cheaper or save you money so you can make more money. You really are ethical. And so I love your products. And I’ve gotten to know you and know that as you stand as a very ethical person and I trust everything you put out because of that.

You had shared with me, I think back in September or August, you shared with me a testimonial of someone who it blew my mind. I love this testimonial. Do you have any testimonials on hand or that you can remember you can read off the top of your head of people who’ve had outstanding results working with your Flash Fast?



[01:59:53] Robyn Openshaw: Oh my gosh, I’d have to go into Facebook and read them. But people who get their Flash Fast, we immediately put them in the Facebook Group. It’s a closed group but anybody who buys a Flash Fast, we want them in there so they can go through the experience with other people and see the experience they’re having and ask questions. And I have two help coaches in there. You know what? I could go in my Facebook Messenger right now. So the testimonial that you’re talking about that I sent you is a woman named Dolores. And she said, “End of day three on the Flash Fast. and what a miraculous three day Flash Fast it has been. I had my three shakes with added organic kale, organic mixed berries, ginger, and turmeric. I had my bar and an organic apple and organic banana every day. I have been pain free in my hips and knees since hour 15 of the fast. I’ve been in intense searing chronic knee and hip pain 24/7 for 15 plus years. And it’s gone just like that. I feel like I’m dreaming. and if I am, I don’t want to wake up. I’m beyond thankful.”

So yeah, that testimonial that I had sent you, I had to think for a second what I sent you because we see a lot of these. Although, that one was really quite astonishing. I mean 15 plus years of pain, zero relief whatsoever. And 15 hours and her pain disappeared. It didn’t come back after day three. She reported back to us, she said, “I’m completely astonished. I still have no pain.” I think the point here is – and it’s a great one to end on – is that the body knows what to do. And the body needs the raw materials. It needs a little space and time. And that’s what you’re giving the body as a little space and time. A little breather to instead of having to do all the urgent tasks that are coming at you in your work  – and anybody who works for a living can relate to –  they get urgent stuff coming at you all day every day. And when you have some space and time and those tasks – that would be food coming in are not there – then you can turn to those important but not urgent tasks. And that’s what the body does. It immediately turns to those long overdue maintenance projects and gets it done.



[02:02:14] Ashley James: I love it. Awesome. Thank you so much, Robyn Openshaw for coming on the show again. It’s been such a pleasure having you on. These two hours just flew by.

Get the free book. Listeners, please go to and get that free ebook. And also by the Flash Fast. Do it. Check it out. I actually prefer doing your flash, fast getting the kit versus doing it myself because then I have to calorie count and restrict myself and try to stay under 800 calories. Then there’s temptation. Whereas if I have your program, it’s like, “No. I’m just following this.” So it makes it really clear cut. And then I could just do it and forget about it. I don’t have to put a lot of mental energy into it. So that’s why I love your program. It just saves me my mental energy so I can just focus. Just do what you put in front of me, do your kit, and follow the protocol. Like you said, it has one card, basically. Do this, do this, do this, do this for three days. And then and then reap the rewards, reap the benefits. So listeners can go to to get the – was it $10 off their first kit and try it for themselves.

And I’d love to hear what you think of it. Of course, we’re going to talk about this in the Learn True Health Facebook Group. I want to know what you guys think and what kind of benefits you’ve seen from doing this kind of fasting.

Robyn, I definitely want to have you back on the show. Anytime you want a platform to come share and teach, you are always welcome. Thank you so much for coming on the show today and sharing with us the Flash Fast.



[02:03:57] Robyn Openshaw: My pleasure. Thanks, Ashley.



[02:04:00] Ashley James: Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition? And how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity? Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business, support people in their success? Do you love helping people?

You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program. And it really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over 100 dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition. But from the standpoint of how we can help people to shift their lives and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health.

I definitely recommend that you check them out. You can Google Institute for integrative Nutrition or IIN and give them a call. Or you can go to and you can receive a free module of their training. So check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in. Be sure to mention my name, Ashley James, and the Learn True Health

Podcast because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program. And I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information.

We need more health coaches. In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctors offices. You can work in hospitals. You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help your local schools shift their programs to help children to be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success in their health goals.

There’s so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach. So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. Mention my name. Get the best deal. Give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon.  The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month. So you’re going to want to call them now and check it out. And if you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.

Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price? For high quality supplements and to talk to someone about what supplements are best for you, go to and one of our fantastic true health coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are the highest quality and the best price. That’s That’s Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program.


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Oct 30, 2019

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Nootropics For Pain Relief



  • What Nootropics and different Nootropics for pain relief
  • Different natural pain relief supplements
  • Benefits of using lion’s mane and where it’s from
  • Benefits of encapsulating own supplements
  • Benefits of kratom and other uses for kratom
  • What rhodiola rosea is and other uses
  • Benefits of using PQQ
  • Benefits of using CBD oil and its difference hemp oil
  • How NAC works
  • How to get consultation from David Tomen and what you get from his consultation


In this episode, David Tomen will share with us today about different nootropics for pain relief. He shares where each nootropic is from and what other benefits does the nootropics have aside from pain relief. He will also share with us different scientific studies and researches that support the use of nootropics for pain relief.


[0:00] Intro: Hello true health seeker and welcome to another episode of Learn True Health Podcast.      

Today’s a really exciting interview for those who are looking for pain relief naturally. David Tomen, the Nootropics Expert is back on the show with us. We do mention a bunch of supplements and herbs that you can use to support yourself. One of them being CBD. My favorite company to get CBD from is I had the founder on the show. You can listen to that episode by searching CBD on my website We have a coupon code from them. They’re very generously giving us a big discount to all the listeners. So go to and use the coupon code LTH at checkout.

Why I like their CBD? It is organic, it is very clean and they guarantee that you will pass a drug test because it is just pure CBD. Now they will be coming out in the future with a whole plant supplement which has all the other wonderful phytonutrients in it that are also very healthy and supportive. So just go to their website, check it out medterracbd.comYou can also listen to the episode I did on that. I have several episodes with doctors and experts in CBD so you can fully dive into understanding that whole wonderful world. David Tomen talks a lot about different herbs. Some of them are controversial and that’s okay because he is all about the science. So on his website,  , he sites every single scientific study and research paper when he discusses different herbs and supplements so that he can site exactly the dosages that you can safely take. Thank you so much for being a listener.

If you haven’t heard already, because I have mentioned it in the last few episodes, we are coming out with a very exciting membership the Learn True Health Home Kitchen membership. You will be able to join it and learn how to cook delicious, healthy whole food plant-based meals for you and your whole family. So if you’re looking to go completely plant-based, that will be a fantastic resource for you. Or if you just love to learn how to introduce more wonderful vegetables into your diet and eat even healthier, you will absolutely love our membership. Go ahead and join the Learn True Health Facebook group by searching Learn True Health on Facebook and go to and join our newsletter so you will be abreast of all of the news that comes your way as we launch the new membership. We’ve been filming and it has been so much fun. I can’t wait for you to learn all these delicious whole food plant-based recipes. Have yourself a fantastic rest of your day and enjoy today’s interview.

Welcome to the Learn true health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is episode 389.


[0:03:29] Ashley James: I am so excited today to have back on the show, David Tomen. He is the He was on the show in episode 362 and 374. If you haven’t listened to those episodes, you definitely have to go back check out David Tomen’s story as to why he became the nootropics expert. For those who don’t nootropics are and are just getting into, this is their first taste of the David Tomen experience. David, can you start by sharing what are you nootropics?


[0:04:00] David Tomen: Hi Ashley.


[0:04:02] Ashley James: Hi.


[0:04:03] David Tomen: Thank you for having me back. Nootropics are any type of dietary supplement that helps your brain.


[0:04:09] Ashley James: Exactly. So, all the good stuff that supports the cardiovascular system to the brain that supports the balance of chemicals in the brain. Everything that just supports the neurological system


[0:04:22] David Tomen: What makes your brain work. Yeah. Our brain is, as far as I know, is the most complex thing in the universe that we know of. The deeper I get into the neuroscience the more, I’m no longer blown away just because it’s just so incredibly interesting and deep and we’re a long way from figuring it out. But the little bit that we have figured out, the neuroscience that I have available now and that I’ve got thousands and thousands and thousands of links to clinical studies and all the stuff that I’ve done on is just supporting what we already, we know that this stuff works and now we’re starting to understand why it works.


[0:05:17] Ashley James: Yeah. That’s so cool. I love it. Well, people have been using for thousands of years, have been using herbs, natural nootropics. Now we’re understanding why they work. That’s pretty amazing. Everything from mushroom and herbs, minerals to how now we see why these supplements are supporting the body and supporting the neurosystem in a really positive why. I think they just recently came out with some discovery about the brain that I found fascinating. You probably already heard of it but there’s a type of cell in the brain that is responsible for cleaning up the old tissue. We really want these cells to be happy because when those cells are not happy, they actually start to digest healthy tissue in the brain. One thing that causes them to go haywire and digest healthy tissue in the brain is lack of sleep. Have you heard of this, that lack of sleep causes the brain to basically eat itself? So something as simple as sleep is highly supportive of brain health. So, of course, that’s one thing that you teach is all the things on your amazing website, how we can maintain a lifestyle to promote the best brain health possible.


[0:06:45] David Tomen: Including how to get a good night’s sleep.


[0:06:47] Ashley James: Yes. Exactly. Because there are nootropics to support help us –


[0:06:51] David Tomen: To help us sleep.


[0:06:52] Ashley James: Yeah. Something as simple, almost everyone know what melatonin is, is melatonin a nootropic?


[0:06:57] David Tomen: Yes. I consider it a nootropic but I wouldn’t use melatonin. The reason why is because melatonin is, well it goes 5HTPN then serotonin and then melatonin. So your brain naturally produces melatonin, but when you go to buy a melatonin supplement, almost every single melatonin supplement on the market is synthetic. The chemical process that they go through to make melatonin is just scary reading the thing. The other thing that they found out, well a couple of other things. The melatonin supplements, they’re dosed too high because you only use like 0.5 to 0.8 of melatonin naturally. These things are like 3 mg, 5 mg, 10 mg so they’re way, way overdosed. But the other thing is that the label doesn’t jive with what’s in the capsule. Somebody actually did a clinical study and they bought a bunch of melatonin supplements. I actually linked to this in one of my posts. They bought like 25 different melatonin supplements. Then they tested them in a lab to find out how much melatonin was in each capsule. What they found out that it ranges anywhere from -75% to 450% more than what was stated in the label.


[0:08:24] Ashley James: Wow.


[0:08:26] David Tomen: So, if you buy a 3 mg melatonin supplement and the thing is actually got 50 mg of melatonin in it, you can really mess yourself up. The other thing that they found is some of these manufacturers were actually putting serotonin in the supplement which is not even legal.


[0:08:47] Ashley James: Wow.


[0:08:51] David Tomen: Yeah. So don’t buy a melatonin supplement. Use something natural like tart cherry juice which is a natural source of melatonin. It’s a lot gentler and it will help you sleep.


[0:09:01] Ashley James: That is so true. I love tart cherry juice. It really does knock me out. That’s so funny. I also found that chlorella and spirulina, they also help the body produce melatonin because of the amino acids in it I guess. That’s pretty amazing that if I eat them I get better sleep or if I take tart cherry juice I get better sleep.


[0:09:26] David Tomen: It’s just a gentler way of introducing melatonin into your system.


[0:09:32] Ashley James: I love that. We weren’t even going to talk about sleep but I was just so fascinated by what I heard that when we don’t get enough sleep our brain digests itself. Since we’re all concerned about dementia, so many of us have seen our grandparents or are parents go through dementia or aunts and uncles. It is something that we want to obviously avoid and prevent. We can prevent it with natural medicine and understanding the nootropics that we can use to support the brain. Now, one thing that I’m interested in is helping the listeners who are in pain. Because when we are in pain, we are willing to do anything to be out of pain. I know you have a personal experience of that. Would you like to share to the listener what has happened recently?


[0:10:19] David Tomen: Four weeks ago I had my second major back surgery. It’s a laminectomy. The neurosurgeon did a couple of other things where five years prior to this I had a spinal fusion. So they put two rods attached by two screws each. So two rods and four screws in my lumbar between L4 and L5 to fuse those vertebrae together because they had degraded so much that I almost ended up in a paralyzed in a wheelchair because it had just worn out. So five years later, well this started about two years ago, the pain started to come back. Went and did the scans and discovered that the section right about that is falling apart. You know how you can look at a CT scan and an MRI of your spine? You know how your spinal column comes down? It’s nice and clear all the way down. That’s the nerves come down from your brain. The section between L3 and L4 was black. Completely black. I was in excruciating pain. So, what the surgeon did is he went in and he went in and scraped that all out and he cut off some bone. You can imagine the kind of pain that leaves you. Now, fortunately for me, I had extraordinary sciatic pain dealt down both legs down to my toes. That’s gone. But now I’m just dealing with where the surgery was done and that’s getting incrementally better a little bit day by day. I honestly think that I’m recovering a lot faster from this kind of major surgery than most people do just because of the stuff that I’m taking.


[0:12:12] Ashley James: Oh, I bet. Has the surgeon noticed that your healing has been faster?


[0:12:17] David Tomen: I haven’t talked to him since he did the surgery four weeks ago. I see him in a couple of weeks. It’s just never occurred for me to ask him.


[0:12:30] Ashley James: Well, that would be interesting. Did you expect me to have healed this far along or how many weeks did you expect this to heal? Because I have heard of other people that have been on really good supplements and really good diet and that they’ve impressed the surgeons greatly with their quick ability to heal. I even know a guy who broke both legs. He changed his whole diet to make sure it as mineral-rich, vegetables, and he healed his legs weeks, weeks before the doctors expected him to make a full recovery. He made a full recovery weeks and weeks before. It was funny because all the doctors were saying, ‘you can’t speed up your bones healing by eating better.’ Yes, you can. That’s so funny.


[0:13:25] David Tomen: I’ve got a friend in Los Angeles that owns a nootropics company. It’s one of my favorite nootropics stacks. Within the last year, he was in a major traffic accident. He just broke a lot of stuff. It was supposed to take him, the doctors told him it was going to take him eight or nine months to recover. He did in seven weeks.


[0:13:51] Ashley James: Nice.


[0:13:53] David Tomen: Just using the supplement that he sells. One of the things that I love about the supplement that he sells is it’s loaded with lion’s mane. Lion’s mane mushroom and lion’s mane mushroom just heals nerves. That’s one of its big claim to fame. They actually did a, there was a lion’s mane mushroom, I think it was someplace in Malaysia. They studied on rats in the lab. I kind of cringe when I think about how they did this, but they cut the gluteal nerves crippling the rats so the rats couldn’t walk. Then they fed them lion’s mane-laced water for the next two or three weeks. Within two weeks, these rats were walking again because their gluteal nerves had mended back together again and healed.


[0:14:53] Ashley James: That is so cool. It’s so cool. The animal cruelty is horrific but the results are great that they made a full recovery because of lion’s mane. Yeah, I just yesterday made a soup. I was shopping at our local coop called PCC. The beautiful mushrooms. All the wonderful mushrooms they have this time of year. Fall is so great for mushrooms. So, I’ve got lion’s mane. I’ve never had lion’s mane fresh before and I got lion’s mane, shiitake, oyster and chanterelles and onion, carrot and celery. I went home and I cut everything up and put it into my big, big, big, big soup pot. I simmered it for a few hours and I added some herbs like sage and thyme and rosemary. Oh my gosh. This soup is amazing. It felt so healing and so supportive of the immune system. That’s why I was doing it. It was immune system tea or like a soup. That’s like an immune system soup. Now you’re talking about how it’s healing or a startup to the nervous system so that’s even better. Maybe I’m a little smarter today.


[0:16:07] David Tomen: You probably are. Absolutely.


[0:16:12] Ashley James: So what did you do after the surgery to support yourself in decreasing the pain because obviously, your body is going through healing a wound, a big wound. There’s a lot for your body to heal and in the process, you must be in pain.


[0:16:28] David Tomen: Incredible pain. One of the things that I found is extremely effective it was kratom, which is really really controversial these days because the states are trying to ban it because they say it’s an opiate and it’s really. But it acts like an opioid receptors. I find that for me, kratom affects different people in different ways, for me it takes about 8 grams of kratom equals about 10 mg of an opioid, a prescription opioid. That’s how powerful it is. But people use kratom for not only pain but they use it for insomnia, they use it as an anxiolytic, my wife uses it to help her sleep. Then she uses a different strain to help her wake up in the morning. There’s a lot of different things you can do with this herb. The thing is that it’s completely natural. It comes from a tropical deciduous tree that’s native to the coffee family in Southeast Asia where they’ve been using it for thousands of years. The workers there use it as a natural remedy. They make tea out of it. They use it throughout their workday for energy and for pain relief.


[0:17:50] Ashley James: It’s related to the coffee plant so there’s some natural caffeine in it, right?


[0:17:56] David Tomen: There’s no caffeine in it.


[0:17:57] Ashley James: Oh, there’s no caffeine. That’s very interesting.


[0:17:58] David Tomen: There is not. But what it does is it affects the dopamine D1 receptors in your brain which helps boost energy. It also affects serotonin in norepinephrine pathways in the central nervous system. So that’s where you get relief from anxiety and depression. It’s an agonist of three different opioid receptors in your brain, which is where the pain relief comes from.


[0:18:29] Ashley James: Fascinating. Yeah. I was a little wary about kratom when I started to see these signs pop up in all the smoke shops. Not that I frequent smoke shops but you know, I’m driving by them. They have this sign outside that says, ‘Kratom sold here.’ I’m thinking, anything that a smoke shop sells is probably not good for you, right? So my red flags were up. But then I watched the documentary, A Leaf of Faith on Netflix. It’s still on Netflix. I really recommend watching A Leaf of Faith for anyone who is battling pain or has a friend or family member that’s battling pain or opioid addiction because it is a fascinating dive into the political fight on kratom and how many people are seeing results. Then, we question why if it’s all-natural and people actually get off of pharmaceutical drugs, because they get relief from kratom and there’s no deaths and overdoses. It doesn’t harm people like drugs do so it’s safe and natural and doesn’t profit the pharmaceutical companies. Then why is the government trying to shut it down but totally fine with pharmaceutical drugs that might hurt people?


[0:19:41] David Tomen: Because it’s a direct competitor to prescription medication.


[0:19:46] Ashley James: There’s a little conspiracy theory there. We got to question everything. We should always do our research and look into things to see if it’s right for us or not.


[0:20:00] David Tomen: There’s tons of misinformation out there. They’re saying they’re trying to ban it because it’s an opioid. It’s not. It’s a partial agonist of certain opioid receptors but it’s not a true opioid. In fact, it’s not an opioid. It doesn’t cause the respiratory effects that a prescription opioid does which is the reason why you can overdose on it. People do get in trouble with it for a couple of reasons. One, because its popularity has exploded that everybody and his brother is selling it. You can buy it in the local gas station which I do not recommend that you do because people are putting into these capsules stuff that should not be in those capsules. Yeah. It’s scary. You can physically get yourself in a lot of trouble if you don’t get the real stuff. So you just have to be very, very cautious about where you get it from.


[0:21:02] Ashley James: Where do you get it from?


[0:21:04] David Tomen: I use a company in Oregon called Phytoextractum. There’s another company in Pennsylvania that my wife gets it from and I can’t remember the name of the company, but I’ve got a link to Phytoextractum in my kratom review on the website. We’ve been buying it from them for years and years and they’ve been consistent. They test their stuff every which way because they’ve gotten into trouble one time. You know when one stuff is contaminated with salmonella? They said, “That will never ever happen again because our reputation is too important.” So now they test everything. They’ve got several different strains of kratom but it’s all absolutely pure. So, we buy the powder and make capsules out of it. But people also make out of it. When we first started using kratom, I didn’t know how to make capsules. So I would just put two or 3 grams in a yogurt and that’s how I would consume it which is fine. Now we make our won capsules.


[0:22:19] Ashley James: Right, because you get a jar of this powder. It’s a leaf, right? Or is it a –


[0:22:25] David Tomen: No, it’s a leaf. It’s just the leaf. So they just grind up the leaf so it’s a fine powder. Some people say you can smoke it. I wouldn’t smoke it. I don’t see the point in smoking it. I don’t know why you would smoke it. I don’t see any benefit in smoking it. You want to swallow the thing and digest it. That’s how you get the most benefit from it. Yeah. Just stick it in some yogurt or put it in some juice or a smoothie or make capsules of it. Learn what the different strains are and what they do. Then choose the strain that other people say helps them with the sleep or helps them with anxiety or helps them with pain. I find there is one strain in particular that helps me with pain.


[0:23:16] Ashley James: What strain is that?


[0:23:20] David Tomen: It’s just called Bali. It’s called Green Bali. The one from Phytoextractum. There’s another one called Red Bali that my wife uses to help her sleep. She doesn’t like using Ambien so she uses that instead. You see testimonials over and over and over and over again where people are using it to withdraw from opioid addiction, which is amazing. It really is amazing. I’ve actually got a link to a clinical study wherein the lab, they help people withdraw from opiates with a lot fewer withdrawal symptoms just by using kratom.


[0:24:11] Ashley James: Is that because it comes in and attaches with some opiate receptors? So it helps in that way?


[0:24:18] David Tomen: Yeah. It just attaches to them in a different way. I think on a different area of the receptor. A neuroreceptor is just not a neuroreceptor. There’s actually different attachment points. Kratom seems to attach to a different part of the opiate receptor than what prescription opiates do. According to the studies that I’ve seen, that’s how it works. I’ve never ever gotten high out of it, ever.


[0:24:50] Ashley James: That was my next question. What does it feel like to be on kratom?


[0:24:54] David Tomen: Less pain and less anxiety. You’re just in a better mood. You know, people talk about getting high off of it. I don’t know how to do it. You would have to use so much of it that I just like they’re talking 25 grams kratom and I just can’t imagine consuming that much. You take a 00 capsule. If you cram it, jam it jam it really really full that’s a gram. So that it’ll be like swallowing at least 25 or 30 capsules all at once. Why you want to do that, I have no idea.


[0:25:45] Ashley James: What’s the dose that you take for your pain right now managing your pain for the surgery that you’re recovering from?


[0:25:53] David Tomen: 8 to 10 grams.


[0:25:55] Ashley James: So, you make your own capsules. It’s about the size of your regular supplement capsule?


[0:26:01] David Tomen: Yeah. A large capsule.


[0:26:03] Ashley James: Okay. So a large supplement capsule. How many of those a day do you take and how long does it last?


[0:26:08] David Tomen: It lasts for about four hours. Depending on the level of pain, anywhere from 8 to 12 capsules.


[0:26:16] Ashley James: Every four hours?


[0:26:18] David Tomen: No. I do probably twice a day. Sometimes once a day.


[0:26:20] Ashley James: Maybe two to four capsules twice a day?


[0:26:25] David Tomen: No. I would do like eight capsules at once. Like in the morning maybe in the afternoon another eight capsules.


[0:26:37] Ashley James: That sounds like maybe a tablespoon of the powder I mean just to give us an idea.


[0:26:44] David Tomen: You know, people talk about tablespoons.


[0:26:48] Ashley James: I think a tablespoon is half an ounce like a shot glass, I think.


[0:26:54] David Tomen: I got a little scale by Blade that measures milligrams so I know what a gram looks like in powder piled on a scale. But if you fill up one of this 00 capsules, you’re looking at about 750 to 800 mg if it’s not packed too tight, 800 mg of powder. So, how much would that fill up a tablespoon? I don’t know. I never tried.


[0:27:20] Ashley James: Or like a regular-sized soup spoon. I’m just thinking like if someone could have an understanding of how much they’d put in their smoothie if it would be like just a spoonful.


[0:27:31] David Tomen: The best thing to do Ashley is to get one of those little scales.


[0:27:35] Ashley James: Got it.


[0:27:36] David Tomen: They’re $10.00 on Amazon, $10.00 or $12.00. The one that I have is made by, yeah it’s called Blade. It takes two AAA batteries. You switch it on and you pile some powder on it. It tells you how many grams it is or how many milligrams. Right down to the milligram.


[0:28:06] Ashley James: Got it.


[0:28:06] David Tomen: So I used to measure stuff like that but now I just kind of eyeball it because I know how much would a gram looks like.


[0:28:14] Ashley James: Right, and you figured out how much of that goes into the capsules. So it’s about eight capsules every four hours.


[0:28:22] David Tomen: I started out with a 20, what is it 20 or 25 capsules? Just this little capsule machine. That’s what I used for years. Now I’ve got one that does 100 capsules.


[0:28:33] Ashley James: You have a machine? Wow. I used to, when I was a kid, my first naturopath was Dr. D’Adamo, the creator of Eat Right for your Blood Type Diet. After seeing him, our whole family changed the whole diet and went dairy-free, wheat-free, sugar-free, yeast-free all that. He sent us home with a big powder because he had a compounding nutraceuticals clinic basically. So he compounded all of the nasty tasting, he just said drink it and I couldn’t handle it because it was raw B-vitamins you’re trying to get a 6-year-old to drink raw B-vitamins. I was brave. I chugged it and it felt it’s the most horrible taste ever.


[0:29:18] David Tomen: Well, that’s another reason why you want to encapsulate because it tastes like crap.


[0:29:22] Ashley James: Right. So he said, ‘you’re not going to drink it? We’ll make capsules.’ My entire childhood I made these capsules by hand. There was no machine back in the 80s to make our capsules for us. So I’m just laughing now that you can go on Amazon and buy a machine to make your own capsules because I sat there by hand for hours making our supplement capsules.


[0:29:42] David Tomen: You can get a 100-capsule machine from anywhere $14.00 to $20.00.  


[0:29:51] Ashley James: That is so great.


[0:29:52] David Tomen: You can buy the capsules now. You can buy the capsules either joined or separated. The separated capsules are a little bit more expensive because they have the short end in one bag and the long end in the other bag. So you just dump on one side of the capsule machine, you just dump a pile of the long part of the capsules and you shake it around and it slides into the holes. Then you dump off the excess back into the bag. Then you do the same side for the short end and then you just dump the powder on top of that. Use a credit card or something like that to spread it around to fill up the capsules. You get a little tamping thing to tamp it down then you fill a little bit more, tamp it down, fill a little bit more. Then you just put the top on and you squeeze it together. Take it off and capsules.


[0:30:42] Ashley James: That sounds so cool


[0:30:42] David Tomen: It takes me 10 minutes to make 100 capsules.


[0:30:47] Ashley James: Oh my gosh. That is so neat. To think of all the things that we could take. One of our listeners, Naomi, bought some herbs because she wanted to do her own parasite cleanse. She didn’t want to pay the big bucks to the big companies. So she got ground up and all organic and all good stuff, all the herbs. The clove and all that stuff. She made all her own capsules. I just thought how ingenious is that? If we cannot necessarily afford to take these herbs and buy them from the companies that are obviously making a profit, we cut out the middleman and go find where we can find the organic, high-quality herb ourselves and make our own capsules. But we should always make sure that we’re not taking too much, right? We should really be careful about the quality and the chain of custody. That there’s no mold on it. There’s lots of things that we need to do. If we’re going to make our own capsules, we have to really make sure that at every step in the way, that what we’re putting in our capsules is safe and clean. That’s why I like buying from companies because they’ve done the testing. I always buy from supplement companies that have done the testing for me.


[0:32:01] David Tomen: Some of these companies you can go to their website and actually download a certificate of analysis for specific batches. The certificate of analysis is just, it’s a third-party lab that test whatever is in those capsules and they tell you on the certificate of analysis exactly what you’re getting. So look for companies that are willing to do that. Or you can either download it from their website where they say that it’s available if you ask their customer service. But I encapsulate all kinds of other stuff for a couple of reasons. One, it’s less expensive like L-Tyrosine is a precursor to dopamine and [unintelligible] adult ADD. I use stimulants so I need to raise my dopamine so I use L-Tyrosine or N-Acetyl-L-Tyrosine. It’s better for me to get the powder because it’s cheaper and I make my own capsules. The other reason I like making my own capsules because I don’t want any “other ingredients.” When you take a look at a supplement label, you look down at the end of the supplement label and there is this part that says other ingredients. You see things like magnesium stearate and titanium dioxide and dicalcium phosphate and silica. I don’t want that stuff because not only is it not what I’m setting out to put in my body but this stuff is actually bad for you. Like magnesium stearate for example. Nearly every single supplement that you find on a shelf in the local vitamin shop has gotten magnesium stearate on the label. Why? It’s because it’s used as a flow agent. It helps speed up the encapsulation process. It stops the powder from sticking to mechanical equipment, right? So it’s helping the manufacturer but it’s not helping me.


[0:33:58] Ashley James: What are the negative effects of taking it?


[0:34:01] David Tomen: It suppresses your natural killer T cells which is a key component of your immune system. You don’t want to do that. Titanium dioxide is another classic one that you see on nearly every supplement. They used it to make things look more appealing color. The problem with it is that it leads to mitochondrial dysfunction. It damages astrocyte cells which prevents them from being able to absorb glutamate. So that induces oxidative stress and that causes mitochondrial damage. Another one I just came across that’s a little bit less. You don’t see it as often but it just happens to be on a nootropic stack that I’m reviewing right now that will remain nameless until I publish this thing but it’s called dicalcium phosphate. Dicalcium phosphate is used to help bulk out stuff like as a filler. So if you’re selling a supplement that’s 5 mg, you know how big 5 mg is?


[0:35:09] Ashley James: It’s small. Tiny.


[0:35:13] David Tomen: It’s teeny, teeny, tiny, right? You can’t get a 5 mg capsule. You won’t be able to pick the thing up. It’s so small. So they’ve got to put a filler in to fill the rest of the capsule. You can use things like rice flour, which is fine. But these guys use dicalcium phosphate. The thing is produced from either sulfuric acid or hydrochloric acid.


[0:35:38] Ashley James: What does it do to the body?


[0:35:44] David Tomen: It’s often radioactive.


[0:35:46] Ashley James: What?


[0:35:47] David Tomen: Yeah. Well, it’s just hopefully your body just excretes it without doing any damage. But you’d really don’t want that thing going through your system.


[0:35:56] Ashley James: So besides rice gram what are some safe fillers? There’s one supplement I take that uses cinnamon as a filler. I mean it’s a blood sugar support. I don’t take it.


[0:36:07] David Tomen: Yeah, yeah. Something like cinnamon would be fine. Rice flour is fine. I mean, there’s only a couple of fillers that are natural. The encouraging thing Ashley is that this has been so pervasive for so long that now, once every two or three weeks I see a new supplement company pop up. So I take a look at their label to see what’s there. I find that a couple of them are producing a nootropics supplement that have no other ingredients which is a miracle. That’s one of the reasons why I love Opti-Nutra that makes Mind Lab Pro and Performance Lab line of supplements is because they don’t have. The only other ingredients are the capsule, which is made out of tapioca, and sometimes rice flour as a filler. That’s it. There’s no other ingredients. That is still very, very unusual. So that’s the other reason why I make my own capsules because I don’t have that stuff in there.


[0:37:14] Ashley James: Very cool. Now besides kratom, what other supplements are you taking to support the reduction of pain as your body is healing from the surgery?


[0:37:27] David Tomen: That’s the main one. There’s a lot of other stuff that is helping that too. I use Mind Lab Pro every day and that’s got lion’s mane in it. So we already talked about lion’s mane and we know how that helps your body heal. There are others and pine bark extract. Pine bark extract comes from the French maritime. It’s called French Maritime Pine Bark. It’s native to the Mediterranean region. The extract of that pine bark holds a thing called proanthocyanidins. It does all kinds of things. Improves blood flow in your brain which means your brain is getting more oxygen and more nutrients but it also helps tame inflammation. When you tame inflammation you reduce pain because a lot of pain comes from inflammation one way or another. So pine bark extract helps in that. My very first experience and I just thought of this when I was researching when I was getting ready for our talk, my first experience with a  nootropic for pain and I didn’t realize it was going on at the time and a couple of years later I realize what was going on. Choline citrate. I used to go to a rheumatologist. Because I’m a writer, I have excruciating should pain. The kind of shoulder pain that massages hardly helped. The doctor used to take big needles and inject stuff into my shoulders to try to help me relieve the pain and it wasn’t working. I was just in excruciating pain. But at the time, I realize I needed to boost acetic choline in my brain. One of the easiest ways is to do that. One of the cheapest ways to do that is with choline citrate. All it is choline combined with citrate which is an isocitric acid. The choline and the citrate combined, they contribute to the synthesis of acetic choline in your brain. The other thing that it does for some reason is it helps relieve muscle pain. I find that you have to take quite a bit of this stuff. Like typically, other acetic choline precursors like Alpha-GPC or CDP-Choline you take 350 mg or 600 mg. With choline citrate, you would take like 5 or 6 grams because it’s not very bioavailable. But choline is an essential nutrient. I find that when I was using it I would have less muscle pain. I didn’t realize that until I started researching how it worked in my body. I went, ‘Oh, that’s the reason why I’m having less pain.’


[0:40:55] Ashley James: Cool. So you think your body was deficient in it?


[0:41:00] David Tomen: Yeah. I know it was.


[0:41:02] Ashley James: So, does choline deficiency cause muscle pain?


[0:41:07] David Tomen: Well it can because acetic choline is your body’s signaling neurotransmitter. When you move your finger, that signal is acetic choline. Any muscle movement is signaled by acetic choline. So if there’s not enough acetic choline, what’s going to happen? You’re going to have slow reflexes, your brain’s not going to work as well and your muscles aren’t going to work as well either. There was a clinical study that researches found that providing 2 grams of choline prior to exercise prevented a fall in choline levels and raised choline levels above baseline values for up to two hours after exercise. The researchers found that choline citrate and choline bitartrate were equally effective as well as their two inexpensive supplements that you can buy. One randomized placebo-controlled study found improvements in running times by a significant amount over a 20-mile course when compared to those that were using a placebo compared to the people that were using choline citrate or choline bitartrate. So the dosage of choline citrate is 500 mg to 3000 mg per day.

So the other things that you can use for pain is Holy Basil. Holy Basil is it’s a member of the mint family. It’s also called tulsi or the incomparable one in Hindu. I mean they’ve used it in Ayurveda and the Greeks, the Romans, the Siddha, the Unani. They all used the Holy Basil for things like anxiety, cough, asthma, diarrhea, live dysentery, arthritis, eye diseases, eye [unintelligible], indigestion. I could go on and on and on. Even snake bites. Snake and scorpion bites and malaria. But they found that Holy Basil also helps back pain. It’s probably because Holy Basil is a very very potent antioxidant. It’s a natural COX-2 inhibitor. There are studies that show that some of the compounds included in Holy Basil including eugenol and rosemarinic acid have been compared to ibuprofen, naproxen, and aspirin in their pain-relieving qualities which is pretty amazing.


[0:44:09] Ashley James: How do we take Holy Basil? Is that like an extract, an essential oil?


[0:44:17] David Tomen: You can use in essential oil but I’ve got more experience and I think that it’s easier to note how much is in a capsule of an extract than it is in an essential oil. So the recommended dosage for Holy Basil extract is 300 to 2000 mg a day. You can also make Holy Basil tea just by pouring boiling water over fresh Holy Basil leaves and let it steep for five minutes. Of course, you don’t know how much you’re getting when you do it that way but it works.


[0:44:56] Ashley James: Yeah. It’s fairly safe to make teas. It’s hard to overdose or take too much of it from tea.


[0:45:02] David Tomen: Yeah. It’s highly bioavailable when you do it that way too. But I like capsules. I like extracts because I know exactly how much I’m putting in my body.  Rhodiola rosea is German researchers found that rhodiola works really well for pain, headaches, [unintelligible], hemorrhoids. They use it as a stimulant, as an anti-inflammatory. I’m trying to remember why rhodiola works so well for pain because I’ve only studied it for how it works in the brain. One research team found that rhodiola increased the number of neurons in the hippocampus in the people that they were treating. When you increase the number of neurons, of course, your cognition is better ad your memory is better. It plays a role in saving injured neurons in the hippocampus. Some of the neurological diseases that we’ve talked about earlier come from problems with the hippocampus. You can prevent it at least in part by using something like rhodiola rosea which helps save injured neurons.


[0:46:32] Ashley James: Yeah. I’m remembering that you have a whole article on recovering after stroke. Preventing stroke obviously, but with someone who had a stroke that there’s nootropics to heal the brain after a traumatic brain injury. We’ve talked about that in our past episodes.


[0:46:52] David Tomen: Taurine is an amino acid that is used by athletes. It’s also found in things like Red Bull. But most people find that using taurine, they’ve got sharper eyesight and their muscle pain is reduced and they’re less depressed. Any insulin resistance that’s present goes down.


[0:47:21] Ashley James: That makes me wonder if someone who has taurine deficiency would their insulin resistance get worse? Would their eyesight get worse? When you say things get better because someone takes taurine.


[0:47:36] David Tomen: Probably. It kind of like makes sense doesn’t it?


[0:47:39] Ashley James: It’s a nutrient deficiency that’s causing these problems?


[0:47:43] David Tomen: Yeah. So you just have to try. If you’re lucky enough to figure out what that nutrient deficiency is. If you can’t figure it out then you just start experiment with different things using a, you know doing a search of a site like Nootropics Expert and finding things like, ‘oh, okay. I’ll try taurine.’ They also found that taurine supplementation works for treating autism.


[0:48:17] Ashley James: Why is that?


[0:48:19] David Tomen: Autism spectrum disorder is thought to be associated with oxidative stress caused by your active oxygen species. So it kind of makes sense that oxidative stress is a potential target for therapeutic intervention for autism. Researchers in New York tested 66 children aged 1 ½ to 11 ½ years who are diagnosed with autism. The controls in this study were kids with their healthy siblings and parents.  The studies found that 21 out of 66 autistic children had low taurine concentration in their blood.


[0:49:13] Ashley James: What about the researchers’ families? Did the families also have?


[0:49:17] David Tomen: No. They had normal. Normal taurine levels. So the researchers conclude that the data implied that taurine may be a valid biomarker for at least some contributing to autism. So will it help? Don’t know. All you can do is try it. I’ve consulted with a couple of parents with kids that have got autism and that’s one of the things suggested. I’m not sure. I haven’t got any feedback from them yet on whether it’s helped or not.


[0:49:50] Ashley James: Interesting. I just did an interview yesterday with the doctor who created the GAPS diet. Dr. Campbell-McBride, Her diet is about healing the gut to heal the brain. She’s a neurologist. She healed her son’s. When her son was 2 years old had autism. He totally healed his gut with his diet and his autism went away. So she’s had really great success having reverse autism. Her diet is so high in these amino acids like taurine because the first phase of the diet, we shouldn’t even call it a diet. It’s a really strict program that lasts 1 ½ to 2 years. Then they kind of get weaned off of it because their gut is healed. Then they go back to almost all food after that. But the first phase is just bone broth basically and meat broths high in these amino acids. She had children that has completely reversing autism. I wonder if that’s one of those things that they were really deficient in those amino acids. That was what was –


[0:51:01] David Tomen: It sounds like it.


[0:51:03] Ashley James: Yeah. Interesting.


[0:51:05] David Tomen: Another thing that you can use for pain is PQQ. PQQ is you often see it combined with CoQ10 because those two help make ATP for healing mitochondria. We also find that PQQ promotes the growth of new mitochondria in the brain. It’s the only supplement that we know that does that. It helps grow neurons because it boosts the production of nerve growth factors in your brain. But we found that if you’re dealing with fibromyalgia you might get some benefit alleviating your chronic pain with PQQ. There was one clinical that the researchers concluded that supplementing with PQQ improves C quality and duration, mood improved due to less fatigue and appetite and pain all showed improvement.


[0:52:15] Ashley James: Cool.


[0:52:17] David Tomen: Yeah. Another one that we haven’t talked about is CBD oil.


[0:52:21] Ashley James: Yeah. I was just waiting for that. A lot of people have good results.


[0:52:27] David Tomen: Yeah. A lot of people do. I don’t use it. I’ve tried it a couple of times because I’m using other stuff it kind of for me it was like eh. But so many people report benefits with CBD. It kind of makes sense. CBD is one of at least 120 phytocannabinoids found in the cannabis sativa plant. Cannabidiol is extracted from cannabis or marijuana in industrial hemp where it’s synthesized in the lab. Both hemp and marijuana are versions of the cannabis sativa plant, right? The thing is that CBD does not have the same psychomimetic or mind-altering effects as the main plant compound found in this plant THC.


[0:53:27] Ashley James: Right. So kids can take it. All adults can take. You can take it. You can take it and drive you’re not going to get high. You’ll feel relaxed.


[0:53:36] David Tomen: Actually, CBD is used to help counter the mind-altering effects caused by THC.


[0:53:42] Ashley James: Right. Yes. When people overdose on marijuana and they’re like tripping hard and they’re freaking out if they take CBD they’ll come down really fast. They’ll come back to earth.


[0:53:55] David Tomen: So, it primarily comes from cannabis flowers and the leaves of the marijuana plant. Hemp oil comes from the seeds of the marijuana plant but it doesn’t offer the same therapeutic benefits as CBD oil so don’t make the mistake of some company. Because this market too has just taken off in the last couple of years. Since the farm bill that was passed I think in December that took hemp off of, it’s no longer a Schedule I substance. People are advertising just hemp or in hemp oil as CBD oil and it’s not. CBD oil and hemp oil are not the same thing and they should not be confused. You won’t experience the same benefits with hemp oil as you will with CBD oil. SO you’ll pay more for CBD. That’s why you can buy hemp oil so cheap. CBD is a lot more expensive.


[0:54:56] Ashley James:  I’ve seen these companies that are like pain cream companies. They’re like, ‘Now, with hemp oil.’ I feel so angry about that. They’re just throwing in an oil it’s just from the seed, which you can go to Costco and buy the seeds. They’re great to eat. They’re delicious. They’re good to put in smoothies or on your salad. They’re great healthy fats. That doesn’t contain the CBD that we need, in the levels that we need if someone wanted to use it for pain relief. So just having hemp oil added or pain cream is really doing nothing for you. It’s like adding salad dressing to your pain cream. It’s not the same.


[0:55:44] David Tomen: It helps to know why CBD oil is more effective. CBD oil can be used as an antidepressant because it enhances serotonin and glutamate signaling via the 5-HT1A receptor which is a serotonin receptor. It also helps enhance GABA which is one of the reasons why CBD oils have been found to help in epilepsy in reusing seizures. Some of its antipsychotic effects are related to increasing levels of anandamide. It acts on CB2 receptors. They’re specific cannabinoid receptors in your body in your brain particularly in your brain that only respond to CBD, not the hemp. So CBD acts on CB2 receptors to produce an anti-inflammatory response in brain immune cells. The anti-cannabinoid system is they’re still trying to figure out exactly how it works.


[0:57:02] Ashley James: Just like we’re trying to figure out how the brain works, right? It’s all this new stuff about the brain.


[0:57:05] David Tomen: The anti-cannabinoid system is a group of receptors located throughout your body and brain. It consists of signaling molecules in the receptors. It’s CBD that attaches to endocannabinoid receptors, say that fast. There’s CB1 and CB2 receptors. CB1 receptors are found primarily in the brain and central nervous system and is the main molecular target for the endocannabinoid anandamide which is produced in your body and the THC you get from cannabis. The other main endocannabinoid is called 2AG which is also produced in your body and the CBD which you get from cannabis. So both 2AG and CBD are active at both the CB1 and CB2 receptors. CBD cannot bind directly with CB1 receptors like THC can. But CB2 receptors are mainly expressed in immune cells in your body which is probably one of the reasons why it helps boost your immune system and it helps reduce pain.


[0:58:22] Ashley James: So good take preventively now as we’re coming into what they call flu season. Make sure that we’re adding healthy levels of CBD to our regular routine. Would you recommend that?


[0:58:38] David Tomen: And NAC.


[0:58:40] Ashley James: NAC. I love NAC. Yes.


[0:58:44] David Tomen: N-acetyl cysteine. I use 600 mg of NAC three times a day and I find that whenever everybody else is getting the flu or a cold in my family, I seem to not get it. It’s probably because I’m using NAC consistently and I have for years.


[0:59:03] Ashley James: You need to start slipping NAC into your family’s smoothies.


[0:59:07] David Tomen: Yeah. Okay. Why does that work? It works because NAC is a precursor to glutathione. So it’s a potent antioxidant and anti-inflammatory and it’s a free radical scavenger. It also modulates glutamate levels and dopamine release in your brain which also helps people with adult ADD like me. It helps reduce irritability, anxiety, and depression. This is one of these supplements that I think everybody should be using.


[0:59:43] Ashley James: Absolutely. I use it for my liver and I notice a great difference when I use it. My son, I put it in his smoothies. Our naturopathic pediatrician has him on it. What’s really interesting is he had a really stuffy nose, this was I don’t know maybe a year and a half ago, two years ago something like that. He had a stuffy nose and she’s like, ‘Oh, yeah. You take NAC.’ It blows out stuffy noses. It makes all that mucus move again. So we got him on NAC and right away, his sinus is drained. I thought that was the coolest thing. So love NAC. What is it derived from?


 [1:00:26] David Tomen: It’s an acetyl group added to l-Cysteine. You get l-Cysteine naturally from eating things like ricotta and cottage cheese and yogurt and pork and chicken and turkey, duck, wheat germ, granola, oat flakes. They just add an acetyl group to l-Cysteine. L-Cysteine is a naturally forming, naturally occurring amino acid. Your body seems to readily accept it like that and separates the l-Cysteine to use to help boost all kinds of things including glutathione. It helps regulate the amount of glutamate in your brain. It influences the amount of dopamine available in your brain and it keeps dopamine receptors healthy, which is critical for somebody that’s ADD or ADHD that’s using stimulants that is not easy on receptors.

Another study with 30 adult male [unintelligible] of rats. They divided them into three groups. The control group received distilled water. The second group was given Aspartame. The third group was given Aspartame and NAC. Oral administration was done in the morning daily for 90 days. The study found that NAC affected brain deriving tropic level factors. It blocked COX-2 and PGE2 enzymes. It reduced the expression of interleukin 6 and tumor necrosis factor A inflammatory cytokines in the rat’s cerebral cortex. They found that NAC replenished glutathione levels. So the researchers concluded that NAC prevented neurotoxicity and improved neurological function. It suppressed brain inflammation and oxidative stress.


[1:02:34] Ashley James: So cool. We should all be on that.


[1:02:37] David Tomen: I know.


[1:02:38] Ashley James: Right. One of our listeners, Mike, wanted to know if you could talk about neuropathy? There’s different qualities of pain, different kinds of pain. You mentioned the pain like muscle pain. Now, your pain is very unique in that you’re healing a surgical injury. Other pains can be chronic. We have neuropathy where people often feel it in their limbs or in their extremities, their feet and their hands. Do you have any suggestions around helping neuropathy?


[1:03:17] David Tomen: I haven’t done a ton of research into it, but I think fibromyalgia is probably included in that area. I’m hypothyroid. One of the things that I have to deal with for years was fibromyalgia but I don’t anymore. It just went away. What I found after years and years of research was that one doctor, I think it was Brownstein, found that when they brought T3 level, thyroid T3 levels up to optimum, fibromyalgia went away. That’s probably what happened with me. When I finally got my thyroid levels where they were supposed to be, just fibromyalgia went away. I imagine, just to remind everybody that I’m not a doctor. I don’t play one on TV. I’m just an ordinary guy that has figured some of these stuff out by reading tons and tons and tons of clinical studies and trying these stuff on myself. But it seems to me that what we just talked about with NAC, things like COX-2, all the inflammatory enzymes and the expression of things like interleukin 6 and tumor necrosis factor A, all of these are inflammatory cytokines. They probably somehow contribute to neuropathy when they get out of wack, right? That just makes sense to me.


[1:05:11] Ashley James: Right. One of the naturopaths that I mentored with, Dr. Wallach who was a pathologist and a veterinarian and a research scientist before becoming a naturopathic physician says that. He has an interesting perspective because he was a pathologist so he’s used to looking at disease tissue on a cellular level under very big microscopes. He says that neuropathy is a combination of inflammation to the nerves and the nerves inability to regrow the myelin sheaths. So it’s a lack of the essential fatty acids, the healthy cholesterol needed to regrow the myelin and the constant bombardment of inflammation and oxidative damage to the nerves. So when we look at what is a really common illness that also has neuropathy is diabetes. Out of control diabetes either type 1 or type 2. When we have high blood sugar, and even someone who’s not diabetic but has extended periods of high blood sugar, high blood sugar causes a huge amount of inflammation and free radical damage to the body. Also, just the amount of damage over time leaves the limbs having less and less healthy blood flow. So now you’ve got nerves that have less good nutrients coming to them and constant bombardment of damage. The damage is more than the body can repair. Every time the body goes to repair it, it can only repair at 10% versus all the damage happening. So those who are able to their diabetes or type 2 diabetes are able to get their type 1 diabetes totally under control through nutrients, through good food, and through supplements are able to bring their body back into balance. They can reverse neuropathy. That neuropathy is reversible after they heal the root cause. So Dr. Wallach talks about giving the body the essential fatty acids it needs because 70% of the white matter of the brain is made of cholesterol. So we need to make sure that we’re feeding the body with healthy fats and obviously make sure that digesting and absorbing them. Because that’s a big problem that people are fat-deficient aren’t digesting. Maybe they don’t have their gallbladder. They’re not eating the right fats. They’re not digesting them and they’re not absorbing them. Then the body can’t utilize them. Make sure we’re doing things like the NAC and the other nootropics you’ve mentioned that help with decreasing inflammation and also being the free radical scavengers to mop up and soak up those free radicals so that we can put the fire out. It’s about putting the fire out instead of treating the smoke.


[1:08:19] David Tomen: And also I think it’s giving your body the nutrients that it needs to regrow myelin.


[1:08:25] Ashley James: Yes. Right.


[1:08:26] David Tomen: The only way that you can create myelin is with vitamin D, vitamin B12, vitamin B9 or folate, vitamin B8 or inositol, vitamin B6 pyridoxine and thiamin. [Unintelligible] is another one contributes to the synthesis of myelin. Those are the main ones. I think ashwagandha too contributes, you know what, I just found out conditions of chronic stress and excess cortisol your brain’s neurons are coated through sheath and myelin so this doesn’t count. Those are the main vitamins that your body needs for your body to actually synthesize myelin.


[1:09:30] Ashley James: Now, we really need to look at making sure that we’re getting the full spectrum of all 90 essential nutrients. All the vitamins, minerals, amino acids, fatty acids. That we’re eating a diet that supports, we’ve talked about this in our previous episodes, but eating a diet that’s supportive of the neurological system and the body as a whole. Also practicing a lifestyle that supports the neurological system like getting enough sleep and getting out of stress mode. Getting into the rest and digest the parasympathetic neuro-response of rest and digest so that the body can heal and focus on healing. So there’s a lot that we can do naturally in our day to day lifestyle. Every meal we have can support our whole body. Also, the supplements that we take throughout the day. I love that there’s this resource because I consider you a research scientist. I mean you’re an autodidact. You’re self-taught but you pour-over, you’ve spent hundreds of hours poring over all the research. If you go to an MD or you walk into a medical office and go to a doctor, they’re highly trained but do they spend hundreds of hours poring over the latest research? They probably don’t.


[1:10:47] David Tomen: No because they haven’t gotten time too. Some of them aren’t just interested. Others just, when you go in to see a doctor, how often does it take for you? You show up for a 1:30 appointment and you actually see the doctor at 2:00 or 2:30 because he’s just slammed. When is he going to have time to research? These people just haven’t got time to spend time researching this stuff. We’re kind like on our own with a lot of this.


[1:11:20] Ashley James: That’s why we’re all listening to this interview right now because we’re on our own. I mean obviously, we want to have doctors in our corner. They’re on our team but we have to take them off the pedestal and say, ‘I’m the employer. You’re on my team. You’re not the boss. I’m the boss. You’re going to help me inform me on my health. But I need to go collect other information too like listening to this episode to support my health.’ Now, this episode’s not meant to treat anything. I don’t normally do a legal disclaimer because common sense, this is information. You take this information. You keep educating yourself. You obviously talk to your doctor before changing any supplements. Talk to a doctor that’s trained in supplements like a naturopathic physician for example.


[1:12:04] David Tomen: They do exist.


[1:12:06] Ashley James: Right, they are amazing. If there are not in your state, you can tell a medicine. I’ve got lots of interviews with naturopaths that would love to talk to you. We always want to consult a doctor especially if it would in any way interact with a medication we’re on. That’s something we’ve talked about David in our past episodes. That you also dive into the research about these nootropics, these supplements and how they can interact in a negative way with certain prescriptions. Also, there’s some that interact in a positive way.

There is a naturopath, one of them that trained me in my past, talked about whenever he had to prescribe a drug would prescribe all the nutrient cofactors that would actually make the drug more efficient. So he would prescribe a smaller dose. So let’s say for example he had to prescribe metformin, I really really really hate metformin for many reasons. But let’s say he did that. He would also prescribe, he’d look at what does metformin, for example, decrease in the body? Let’s say it decreases B12, right? So just like cholesterol-lowering drugs which do damage to the liver and force the liver to create less cholesterol. That’s how they work. They actually damage the liver. They also hurt the mitochondria and decrease our CoQ10. So you have to take a CoQ10 supplement with them. So he’d look at what does this drug reduce in the body so we have to supplement that. But then you’d also have to look at what would increase the effectiveness of the drug? So it might be certain minerals or certain whatever would help the receptors, right? He found that he could make drugs more efficient with over the counter supplements.

That’s really interesting because then it brings us back to if the body becomes more efficient when we take vitamins and minerals and essential fatty acids and amino acids. If we take these over the counter supplements from really high-quality companies obviously. And the body becomes more efficient and has less and less disease or less and less symptoms. This is where I keep going. It’s like the deficiency is causing the illness and yet we always run to a drug, this is what we’re trained to do, run to a drug to mask a symptom. This is what our MDs are trained in, masking symptoms and managing symptoms with drugs but not getting into the root cause.

Back in the 50s there’s a doctor, and you can find this on wiki really interesting, the doctor was able to turn type 2 diabetes on and off in rodents, I think it was rats, by removing chromium or adding chromium to their feed. Thus concluding that chromium deficiency, which is a trace mineral, causes the insulin to not work correctly with the cell. So chromium, vanadium aspartic acid, bitter melon, cinnamon. These are all supplements that we can take to support making insulin work correctly with the cell. I know a type 1 diabetic that was able to reduce his insulin by 75% after getting on those nutrients.


[1:15:34] David Tomen: Isn’t that amazing?


[1:15:35] Ashley James: Amazing.


[1:15:36] David Tomen: Wouldn’t it be wonderful that every doctor did this? But they don’t. So it’s up to us.


[1:15:39] Ashley James: But the information’s out there.


[1:15:41] David Tomen: It’s up to us to get this information and help the doctor heal our bodies.


[1:15:47] Ashley James: Right. Right. Exactly. So that’s my little, ‘be sure to work with your physician and make sure to do your own research before you go take any of this.’ Right? This is all just for information because we want to help you to make more informed choices. Now, on the topic of pain, I have to share something really exciting that happened the other day. Had a friend come over to do a little playdate with our kids, our kids are all the same age. I have one kid she has a bunch. She is back up and walking after being basically bed-ridden or couch-ridden for months. She was in a horrible accident and broke both of her ankles. She has this big wicked scars on both sides of both ankles. We didn’t get into the details as to exactly how it happened but she had lots of surgeries to correct it. She was on crutches for a long time. Finally, she’s up to walking but she says she can’t even clean the house or do the dishes in the kitchen because she really can’t stand for long periods of time before it is hurting again. She really doesn’t want to take any opioids and she was really clear about that. I had with me the magnesium soak that I believe in. I know magnesium is great for pain. If the body is deficient in magnesium it’s hard for the body to turn off the pain receptors to shut the channel and stop sending that signal. So I get her to soak in magnesium and she almost cried at the end of it. She said, “This is the first time I’ve been out of pain since before my accident. I have been in months and months of pain.” She couldn’t believe it. She texted me hours later she goes, “I’m still out of pain. I have to get some of this stuff. I can’t believe it.”

So something as simple as soaking in magnesium can, again it comes back to, it’s not that magnesium stops pain. It’s that if the body’s deficient in it then our pain can become exacerbated because the neuro system is not working correctly. Magnesium is what the nerves, magnesium, and calcium are needed for the nerves to send proper signals. Yeah. I know you talked about magnesium and the importance of it on your website as well.


[1:18:10] David Tomen: I do. I love stories like that. I love them.


[1:18:14] Ashley James: Isn’t that cool?


[1:18:15] David Tomen: Yeah. I need to start collecting more testimonials from the people that are coming to Nootropics Expert and months later going, ‘Wow. My life has changed.’


[1:18:28] Ashley James: Well you have a bunch of them on your website. What I love about your articles is at the bottom it’s like blog style and that people can leave comments. It’s very active. We have that on as well but yours, yours is very active. Lots of people sharing their testimonials on your website. So it’s fun to go through and read it. But it would be great if you were to kind of compile them into like a little testimonials section because it brings people hope. Hope that they can heal their bodies. I was really sick. Really, really sick like in my 20s. If I had that resource to show me that there’s hope, it would’ve accelerated my willingness to dive into this world. It would’ve accelerated my motivation to see that there’s hope. It really helps us to start behaving in a positive way and moving in this direction. So I think it would be beneficial to do that. The next time we have you on the show you could come and share some of those stories of success.


[1:19:35] David Tomen: All right. Let me do that. It’s funny, I was booking a bunch of consultations and one lady from, I don’t know where. Someplace in the world, I don’t know where she is. Russia? I don’t know where. I don’t remember. But I sent her a message saying, “This is what. How to prepare for this consultation. This is what I expect from her.” Her response back to me. The very last sentence before sincerely or thank you or whatever, I finally have some hope. Now, it just brings tears to your eyes when you see stuff like that.


[1:20:13] Ashley James: You’ve been doing a lot of consultations lately. We were talking about that before we hit record. I’d love for you to share because you were telling how cool it was. Like how many people you’re helping one on one. Can you walk us through what it’s like working with you?


[1:20:29] David Tomen: You can book for half an hour or an hour. I charge $100.00 for a half an hour, $200 for an hour. Why would you want to do this? You’ll save time trying to figure this thing out on your own. You can save yourself money because you’re going to avoid trying the wrong supplements. You just don’t blindly walk to the Whole Foods and stand in front of the vitamin shelf and ho, ‘what am I going to get?’ You stay safe by avoiding interactions with prescription meds that you’re on. And you just have more confidence in what you’re putting in your stack together or your supplements together. You just feel more confident in what you’re doing. You’ve got the peace of mind that somebody’s got you back. So that’s why you want to do something like this. People just ho to, I use Calendly to book this. There is a link on the website. If you go to the menu Store dropdown menu consultations. You just click on the link for consultations and you book a time. I ask you to send me a list of the supplements that you’re currently taking. The list of medications that you’re currently on. What your health issues are that you’re dealing with and what you would like some help with. What your goals are for that session. I spend a couple of hours after I get those notes I spend a couple of hours in research finding what the best recommendations are for that person. Then we spent half an hour, typically an hour is better for the first consultation. We talk about how to deal with whatever it is that they’re dealing with. After the consultation, usually, the next day, I send the, one or two pages of notes from that call with just notes of what we talked about so that they’ve got something to refer to. So they know if we talked about they know they need to get this and this and this, they don’t need to take notes during the call because I already have that and I’ll send it to them afterward. So that’s what you get with a consultation.


[1:22:48] Ashley James: Right. So if they want an hour with you it costs $200.00 but what they’re actually getting is about five hours of your time because you spend a few hours before and a few hours after the consultation. First, you do all your research for them. Then you talk to them and consult them. Then afterward, you compile all the information together into an email, into an actual plan for them. So that’s probably about five? That sounds like about five hours that they would get out of you for that $200.00. That seems very reasonable.


[1:23:24] David Tomen: It’s one of the reasons why I don’t promote consultations very much or very often just because it’s so time-consuming for me. But people do find it really, really, really helpful.


[1:23:37] Ashley James: Well, I know that someone’s nerves are probably going to want to talk to you now that we’ve let them know about it.


[1:23:45] David Tomen: I would love to. Just tell them that Ashley sent you maybe I’ll be even nicer. It’s just I’m nice all the time. Yeah. Just send people over and I’ll help them if I can.


[1:23:59] Ashley James: What’s that sound?


[1:24:01] David Tomen: Rain. It just started raining, pouring over here. I live in South Florida by Miami and when it starts to rain here.


[1:24:11] Ashley James: It sounds wonderful now that I know that it’s rain. I thought it was like a monster coming to attack you. I was like, ‘what is that sound?’


[1:24:17] David Tomen: When it rains here, it rains.


[1:24:19] Ashley James: It sounds like something from that, remember that TV show Lost? I was like, ‘what is going on?’


[1:24:26] David Tomen: Yeah. When it rains here it pours.


[1:24:27] Ashley James: Well, beautiful. I do have a healthy level of jealousy that you live in gorgeous, what is that Miami that you live in?


[1:24:34] David Tomen: It’s north of Miami.


[1:24:36] Ashley James: North of Miami, beautiful area. We talked about grounding and earthing, you and I. You said that you go barefoot with your dogs when you walk them because you can 12 months of the year in Florida.


[1:24:53] David Tomen: Although it does get kind of chilly in January and February.


[1:24:56] Ashley James: Don’t even. I’m sorry but you can’t say that to someone who lives in Seattle and grew up in Toronto. It gets below freezing twice in the last week here. So you can’t say it’s called there when people aren’t wearing parkas and boots and winter jackets.


[1:25:16] David Tomen: Well, you can tell who the tourists are and the snow burns are because it’s 50 degrees outside and us, we’ve all got winter coats on. These people are walking around in t-shirts and shorts.


[1:25:27] Ashley James: Yes. Yup. I remember, when I was a kid we went to Mexico and it was 15 degrees Celsius. Let’s see here, 60 degrees Fahrenheit. All the locals were wearing two sweaters. They didn’t know what to do with themselves. I’m walking around in shorts and a t-shirt going, ‘this feels so good’ because I came from -30. It’s so funny. Are there any nootropics that help people with temperature?


[1:25:54] David Tomen: L-Tyrosine


[1:25:56] Ashley James: L-Tyrosine. So if someone is always feeling cold or has cold hands, cold feet should they try taking L-Tyrosine?


[1:26:04] David Tomen: It just seems to help with when you’re in a stressful situation. Athletes used them. It helps them with endurance. Particularly weather-related stress. They perform better when they’re in cold weather in sports when they’re using something like L-Tyrosine.


[1:26:27] Ashley James: Interesting. Well, you got to get your whole family on that for the winter.


[1:26:32] David Tomen: Yeah. When it drops down to 50 degrees here.


[1:26:34] Ashley James: Yeah, 50 degrees. I dream of 50 degrees in the winter. David, it’s been such a pleasure having you back on the show. I always love it when I get to talk with you. Is there anything that you’d like to say to wrap up today’s interview or any homework you’d like to give us?


[1:26:51] David Tomen: Help your doctor help you. Really. There is just so much information that’s available now. It’s sound information. It’s real information. I mean, I mention this earlier. I’m not a doctor. I don’t play one on TV. I research this stuff. But this stuff is real. It’s available. You can find it out for yourself. One place that you can use as a resource is because there’s hundreds of hundreds of hundreds of pages that you can use to research. You can get my book, Head First, which is nearly 600 pages of everything. It’s like a brain repair manual. You can also get a free download of Secrets of the Optimized Brain, which is a little e-booklet, 75 pages. All that is dietary supplements that help the brain nootropics. There are probably 70 or 75 in that 75-page booklet of what they are, where they come from, how much you take, what kind you buy. So that’s free. That’s a free download. Just this help is available. Just reach out for it. You can fix yourself.


[1:28:12] Ashley James: Wonderful. There is hope. Thank you so much David Tomen for coming on the show today.


[1:28:16] David Tomen: Thank you for having me back.


[1:28:18] Ashley James: All the links are going to be on the show notes of today’s podcast. It’s my pleasure. Thank you. We can’t wait to have you back on the show.


[1:28:25] Outro: Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition? And how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity. Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business and support people in their success? Do you love helping people?

You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program. And it really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over a hundred dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition. But from a standpoint of how we can help people to shift their life and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health. I definitely recommend you check them out. You can Google Institute for Integrative Nutrition or IIN and give them a call. Or you can go to and you can receive a free module of their training to check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in. Be sure to mention my name Ashley James and the Learn True Health podcast because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program. And I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information.

We need more health coaches. In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctors’ offices, you can work in hospitals. You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help your local schools shift their programs to help children be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success and their health goals. There are so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach.

So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. Mention my name, get the best deal. Give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month. So you’re going to want to call them now and check it out. And if you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.

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Book by David Tomen

Secrets Of The Optimized Brain (E-book)

Head First – The Complete Guide to Healing and Optimizing Your Brain with Nootropic Supplements  (Ebook)


Check out other interviews of David Tomen!

Episode 374: How To Improve Brain Cognition With Nootropics

Episode 362: Nootropics

Oct 25, 2019

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Dr. Trent's site:



The Weight Is Over


  • It is important to prepare your own food
  • The Weight is Over book
  • Figure out the pain generator
  • Lack of mobility and inflammation
  • Hobbies are important factor in health
  • Benefits of family dinner
  • History of food and stress
  • Cortisol and melatonin rhythm
  • Parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system
  • Weight loss becomes a side effect of better health
  • Intermittent fasting is the healthiest style of eating
  • Eighty percent of our nutrition should be plant based. Twenty percent animal based
  • Vegans have low inflammation
  • Every person needs to find that balance for themselves
  • Vitamins from plants, fruits, and vegetables runs the entire human body
  • Research what food does, what vitamins are, where they come from, and how they integrate and interact inside your body


00:00:00 Intro: Hello, true health seeker. And welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health Podcast. You’re going to love today’s interview with Dr. Trent Mozingo. He’s a wonderful doctor that has a fantastic book. And he teaches so much in this episode. You’re just going to love it.

Well, I can’t contain myself anymore. You know, I was going to keep the secret a little longer but I just can’t contain myself anymore, especially after I recorded this interview today with Dr. Trent. And we discussed some key absolute fundamental things to creating health and reversing disease. Or the major thing, obviously, is the food you put in your body and what you cook. And the fact that you do cook your own food, that you do prepare your own food is so important.

So if you’ve been listening to reason episodes, I’ve hinted at the fact that there’s something really exciting I’ve been working on. There’s been a project I’ve been working on for a while now and I’m about to launch it. I am so, so, so excited to bring it to you. It’s so neat. There’s so many listeners have reached out and asked for this. I’m going to create a membership site that is incredibly affordable. I’m going to teach you whole food plant based cooking so that you can learn how to get more vegetables into you and into your kids and into your husband and into everyone in your family. I’m partnering with a friend of mine who’s a fantastic cook, who is also whole food plant based. And he has three kids that are eating her food. And man, if you can get kids to eat this way and you can make it delicious and fun, then the whole family wants to eat it. So together, the two of us, are teaching in this membership site how to cook whole food plant based diet.

Now, that doesn’t mean you can’t eat meat. That just means you’re going to learn how to eat more vegetables, more legumes, more beans, and all the variety – wonderful variety of vegetables that are healing. We’re going to have a whole section on healing foods and healing recipes. And we’re going to have a whole section for holiday meals. And whole section for if you just feel like cheating but you still want to eat healthy, super, super delicious desserts and snacks that are still incredibly nutritious and healthy. And then there’s the kind of the bar food when you just want to make some fun stuff and going over to a friend’s house or they’re coming over your house and you kind of just want to pass just like how everyone else eats. But you wanted, like, sneakily still eat healthy, but have it be yummy, we’ve got some of those recipes too.

So we’re teaching how to cook, so people who don’t know how to cook – people have been requesting. like people have been telling me, listeners have been telling me, “I would love to do this but I have no idea how to cook. And I’m just afraid I burn water. I’m just afraid of getting in the kitchen.” So were going to hold people’s hands. And then we’re also going to, for those who are great in the kitchen but just need a little help with recipes and ideas and menu plans, to transition into a healthier holistic way of eating that actually helps heal the body. Then this is going to be for you too. So it’s for both kinds of people, the people with no experience in the kitchen and also the people who have lots of experience but need to adjust their lifestyle into a healing diet that’s also delicious and also is realistic.

Because I’m a mom and I work, obviously, so I’m busy. And so is my partner, Naomi, who is the mom of three and so she manages a busy lifestyle and manages to cook all the meals at home. And a whole foods plant based diet that’s holistic and healing for the whole family. And being able to cook for different palates and different food sensitivities is really important. So we teach that. Also, it’s gluten free. It’s an anti inflammatory diet and anti-disease diet. But it’s done in a way that is very simple. So all recipes are quick. All recipes are delicious. And also we teach how to do it in a way that saves money, saves time, makes it delicious.

And we have menu plans. We have grocery lists. We walk you through everything that’s really important. Cookware, the essentials, the things that you need in your kitchen, how to use them. And also food prep, how to cook once every three days. So you’re just cooking – you’re getting into the kitchen once and you’re actually making enough food for several different meals that pair well together and it tastes delicious.

So that is what I’ve been working on. And I’m so, so excited. We’re going to be launching it soon. And there’s going to be a discount for the listeners, obviously, for you guys, right when we launch it. I want to make sure that I gift you guys. But it is more making sure that everyone can afford it because I want everyone to have access to this information in a way that supports all of you. And I’m really, really excited to bring that to you.

This is something that when you shift your diet to healing foods and you feel good after every meal, but not only that, you feel good the next day when you jump out of bed and you go, “Wow. I have more energy today. Like, I don’t feel aches and pains. I feel great.” And then a month later, you’re just like you can’t believe, like, maybe your headaches have gone away or your endurance goes up. Maybe you’re just happier. Things shift when you feed your body and you nourish your cells, everything starts to get better. And that’s what I really want to share with you is this way to do it. In a fun way that is manageable as a busy parent. That is manageable. And and I we teach how to feed everyone from a toddler all the way up to the grandparents. So everyone in between.

And of course, we’ll take requests for recipes. If you guys have a specific style that you want, all the listeners and the members can reach out and definitely request certain foods as well. Because we’re always expanding the types, the styles of recipes that we’re creating. So that’s going to be available soon. And if you want to be the first to know, so you get in – you become one of the founding members of our wonderful new membership . We’re calling it Learn True Health Home Kitchen. And if you want to be part of Learn True Health Home Kitchen, then join the Facebook Group, the Learn True Health Facebook Group. And also join my email list. You can just go to and the pop up comes up within a few seconds, put your email in there. I promise not to spam you. You will get a few emails because that does send out some emails with videos that we made with Naturopaths that teach the foundations of health. And it’s all free. So join the email list and then when we officially launch Learn True Health Home Kitchen, you will be the first to know and you can join it.

I am just so excited to bring this to you. This has been a long time coming. So now is the time. And it’s perfect because Thanksgiving is around the corner, Christmas is around the corner, all these great holidays where wouldn’t you like to feel better the next day. Wouldn’t you like to wake up the day after Thanksgiving or the day after Christmas, the day after New Year’s and feel healthier than the day before? Instead of feeling food coma. And some people kind of dread the holidays because it’s stressful. And we stress eat. And we just don’t eat healthy. But wouldn’t you like to eat really delicious food that actually builds your health and builds you into a better body in 2020. Wouldn’t that be wonderful? Well, that’s what we’re going to do together. Awesome.

Enjoy today’s interview. Thank you so much for being a listener. Thank you so much for sharing these episodes with your friends and family. And helping everyone we love to build healthier bodies.

We have over 37 trillion cells in our body. And everything we eat goes into building healthy cells or sick cells. And I want you to build 37 trillion healthy cells in your body. And we’re going to do that with food, lifestyle, and we’re going to figure out and learn from all these wonderful interviews just like today with Dr. Dr. Trent Mozingo. We’re learning how we can learn true health. Enjoy today’s interview.

Welcome to the Learn True Health Podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is Episode 388.

I am so excited for today’s guest. We have with us Dr. Dr. Trent Mozingo, who by far has the most beautiful last name I’ve ever heard, Mozingo. We will never forget that. Dr. Trent Mozingo has written an amazing book called The Weight Is Over.

And he was just telling me a little bit about it. And I said – I practically wanted to yell, stop, stop. We have to hit record. This is so amazing. I can’t wait for the listeners to hear about it. Dr. Trent, welcome to the show.


00:09:39 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Thank you. Thank you for having me on your show.



00:09:41 Ashley James: Absolutely. I want to jump right into your story first, because I want to know and I want the listeners to know what happened in your life. You know, growing up that led you to want to become a holistic doctor and help people heal in this way.



00:09:59 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Well, that’s a – it’s an interesting question. Because I grew up a farmer in southern Indiana. I had no idea the value of growing up raising our own food, raising our own beef cows, or own eggs, or garden, canning, freezing for the winter. I grew up eating from the soil to the table at my house. And when you’re in that as a child, you don’t have a clue that is really fueling a healthy human body. Certainly, I never got sick much as a kid. I never thought much about it. But as I was growing up, my family and I did everything on the farm. We did all our own mechanics. We did all of our own growing, raising, butchering. We pretty much did everything to keep us alive for the winter.

But as a kid, for some reason, I decided I want to be an anesthesiologist. I was about five. I don’t why. But I want to put people to sleep. And I don’t know where that came from. But my dad would drive around everywhere and he’d make me tell the neighbors what I want to be when I grow up, anesthesiologist. And that carried on until I was about 16. And I was in a major car accident. And they did surgery. I broke my jaw on the front and the sides. Smashed a bunch of teeth. It was a pretty bad accident. And I went into surgery and I met the anesthesiologist. Nice guy. I told him, “That’s what I want to be when I get older.” And he’s kind of run down a little bit what he does. And I was a 16 year old kid, I didn’t know much about it.

But as I was starting to go under, he’s sitting there beside this computer with that beeping noise in a hospital that beep, beep, beep. And he’s reading a book. Ad my surgery was four hours and I thought, “Man, he has to sit there and keep me alive for four hours.” And that sounds terrible. I don’t do that anymore. So I decided right then anesthesiologist is a no for me. But during the recovery of my accident, dental work – I had extensive dental work for a year – my back was stiff and sore. But my cousin was a chiropractor in Greensburg, Indiana. Not far from me. And I went and seen him. And 16 years old, he’s the happiest man I’ve ever met. He loves his job. He’s got a really nice car. I said, “John -” that’s his name – “John, how do I become a chiropractor? And he said, “I went to Purdue. Then I went to Palmer College of Chiropractic.” And I did just that.



00:12:31 Ashley James: Well, tell me a bit about your results. Take me back to that time that you’re in pain and you see your family member who’s a chiropractor. What was your first adjustment like?



00:12:44 Dr. Trent Mozingo: It was amazing. I felt – I mean, one adjustment, I felt a lot better. I was 16. And as a chiropractor now I know the youth they do adapt to an adjustment a little bit better than an older person. Because there’s no muscle tension, less muscle tension. No degeneration. There’s no arthritic changes. So a kid will respond a little bit better to an adjustment than an older person. But I felt amazing. And again, it was a lot of how I felt when I was left. And I didn’t know anything about chiropractic at the point. I just knew he loved his job. And he was excited to go to work every day.

And as a farmer, it’s hard work. And my brothers are both in the construction industry. They were working hard. And I was an employee for both of their businesses. One does heating and air and one does excavation and trucking. So I knew the hard work of going out doing the construction side of life. And I was pretty good at school. So I wanted to go to college. I was the first one on my family to do so. So it was more just I want to find a career that you love. And my cousin loved it. And I felt great when I left so I thought that is perfect for me.

But as I got to school, my thought process has changed a lot. I learned what chiropractic is. And I learned what holistic health care is. It really – I changed my scope of practice of chiropractic while I was still in school. I realized I didn’t want to be just a chiropractor. I want to do something with this inflammation epidemic going on, which is how I got to where I’m at now.



00:14:24 Ashley James: Right. Well, so I think that there’s some common misconceptions about what chiropractic is. Can you take a moment to just explain and set the record straight for us. Some people listening have never seen a chiropractor. They’re afraid that it’s just popping and cracking of joints. And a lot of people do go to chiropractors but they still don’t really, maybe, fully grasp what it is doing when you’re seeing chiropractor and having an adjustment.



00:14:51 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Okay, so I am a science based human. Left handed, live in my right brain. I can’t get out of the analytical life. So chiropractic, there are two styles for the most part. There’s traditional chiropractic that does uses more of like a energy chiropractic adjustments release, increase nerve flow to increase systemic function. And then there’s the science based chiropractic – which I practice, evidence based chiropractic – that I’m more of a pain management doc with my chiropractic care. I do some organic referral pain pattern adjustments. But for the most part, for the majority of patients – I should say – go to the chiropractor for pain. Neck pain, back pain, headaches, that’s the most common reason people go. And that’s the most common reason I see patients.

So what I do is it’s a very systematic physical exam to figure out what is their pain generator? Is it a spinal segments not moving correctly? Aberrant motion? Is it a muscle strain? Is it a ligament or connective tissue injury? Is it a disc injury? So through a series of ortho exams, I can diagnose a patient with, “You have a spinal fixation with lumbar para spinal muscle facilitation.” That sounds technical but really it just means the back is stiff and their segments aren’t moving as they should. So the adjustment is designed to take a spinal segment. We have quite a few of them. There’s seven in your neck and 12 in your mid-back and five om your low back. Find out which one’s not moving properly amongst the others around it. And then you put, what they call, a high velocity, low amplitude adjustment or just the chiropractic adjustment. You put an impulse into that segment and you increase mobility. That is the gold of the chiropractic adjustment, is increasing segmental mobility.



00:16:58 Ashley James: But there’s something that happens when that mobility is dampened. The sort of minute impingements of the nerves leaving the spine can affect our organs and thus can affect how our entire body functions. Can you talk a little bit about that?



00:17:19 Dr. Trent Mozingo: That’s more traditional style of chiropractic. And it does make some sense. But what really happens is inflammation happens. So when you have a lack of mobility, so the segments moving amongst each other is good news. So when you move your joints, it lubricates them. It decreases swelling in them. So when the joints get stuck together, they become relatively minorly – or excuse me – minutely inflamed. And that builds pressure in the synovial joint. So the adjustment, when you actually hear the pop of an adjustment, that’s actually relieving that pressure. So that swelling and inflammation is actually what can affect the nerves leaving the spinal segments.

And also motion blocks pain. It’s another really intricate part of chiropractic care. So think about if you slightly pinch your arm or slightly burn your arm or slightly smash your arm, you rub it. That’s what people do. A natural thing is you just rub what hurts. Everyone’s done that, right? So what you’re doing is you’re actually increasing, what they call, mecanorreceptores. The vibration moves faster to the brain, then nociceptors or pain receptors. So what you’re doing is actually in the brain blocking pain. So the motion that put into an adjustment blocks that pain reception. Does that makes some sense?

So that is part of the power of the adjustment is, one, it blocks pain. Two, it can increase mobility to later down the road decreases the growth of inflammation, the increase of inflammation of the joint. And increased mobility always feels better, which is my favorite part of a chiropractic adjustments. I just feel better.



00:19:13 Ashley James: So my husband had AFib where his heart was beating regularly and it was really scary. And the first time we had it, we weren’t woke yet. We were still in the allopathic system. So we went to the hospital and they put them him beta blockers. The beta blockers didn’t work. I mean, his lips were blue. And it was really bad. They were like, “You know, this is going to create a blood clot if we don’t manage this.” They had to reset his heart like it was scary, scary to see. And then our cardiologist said, “You know, it’s probably holiday heart. You’re under stress.” Well, we hadn’t realized – it hadn’t clicked with us yet. My husband, we just moved. And he had single handedly carried all of our furniture into the 26 foot Penske and driven across the country.

And so he carried a ton of weight on his back. And then drove in a bumpy truck for a few days. And then when we got to where we’re living in Seattle, he unloaded the entire truck on his back. And a few days later, woke up with AFib. It went away after we had the visit to the hospital. A few years later, maybe even just a year later, we had a six year old girl sitting on my husband’s shoulders bouncing as we’re going for a hike with the girl’s mother. And a few hours later, actually, he woke up. It was in the middle night with acute AFib. At this point, we’re seeing a Naturopath. And so the Naturopath was like — this is an old school Naturopath. He said, “Well, AFib, a lot of times if it’s acute like this, it’s actually -nothing is wrong with the heart at all. And it’s an impingement in your thoracic spine. That there’s a nerve that innervates the heart that comes out of the thoracic spine. And you need to go see a chiropractor. You need to do some hot and cold compress, hot and cold showers and compresses on the back to flush the system, flush the inflammation. And go see the chiropractor.” And sure enough, the AFib went away.

And then we had – he had a third episode when we were doing CrossFit. A few years later, we were doing CrossFit and he was lifting the – he never lifted in CrossFit and felt really proud of himself. And then woke up that morning with AFib. And again, we’re like, “Okay. This is a sign.” We went to the chiropractor and we’re like we need to do something about this. So we ended up doing traction for him. Really helped traction and rebuilding his skeleton, you know, getting the nutrients. And we did lots of diet adjustments and got really on board with the holistic health along our journey. But it’s been years, years, years, years and he hasn’t had any AFib because we get regular chiropractic care. And he takes supplements to fill in the gaps with minerals. And he eats a whole food plant based diet.

And it’s just amazing because he would be a candidate for a pacemaker because three acute episodes of AFib is enough to be a candidate for a pacemaker. And so many people go that route not knowing that nothing’s wrong with the heart. But that they should really make sure that they’re decreasing inflammation, having a good diet, and seeing a chiropractor – a good chiropractor. Have you ever seen that in your practice?



00:22:36 Dr. Trent Mozingo: So yeah. And where my practice has taken – so when you think about – I’m a biochemistry guy. That’s where the book came from. That’s where my office is pointed at is, first we address biochemistry, which is food. I fell in love with biochemistry when I was in chiropractic school. And it was my favorite thing to learn, is how the human body uses food.

So more importantly, the way you describe that is the heart is a muscle. It’s what it is. It uses the same nutrients for the most part that your bicep does to move your arm. The nutrients, B vitamin complex, minerals that every muscle uses to contract every single time has to come from our food. As you lift a lot and you carry a bunch of furniture, you have a heavy CrossFit workout, without eating during that time, your body is going to deplete from the water soluble, B-vitamin complex. And you will become deficient. A deficient muscle will work unorganized. That is where I would push into the cause of that AFib is more of a B complex deficiency in the heart muscle, which beats a whole bunch of times. It contracts and relax 70 times a minute.

So an overall deficiency is, I would say, it’s an easier way to reproduce that symptom. So I say that because evidence based medicine requires that. Not every person with AFib gets a mid- back adjustment will see a positive change. So that’s where I lean into. I need to know what is more concrete that if I do this to every patient, I will get the same result. So that’s where I study nutrition. Because every human muscle needs the same nutrition. And if you’re deficient in it, you will have the same symptoms.



00:24:54 Ashley James: Uh-huh. I love it. Well, we have to address it as a whole. We can’t just say – like my husband didn’t only get a thoracic adjustment. It was a lot of a lot of change. But the table that you lie on at home that does traction on the back. He was changing his diet, which was decreasing inflammation. He was going more and more into a healthier diet. And then getting the adjustment through changing the diet and then adding supplements when needed. He was addressing those nutrient deficiencies, which is muscles. And heart being the most important muscle was deficient in. So you’re making sure that you’re looking at the person as a whole and their nutritional needs being the most important need of the body.



00:25:43 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Absolutely. I mean, there’s two things that are – the only things we take in is our food and our emotion, stress. And you have to get those right is the most important.



00:25:56 Ashley James: And stress is really hard because we don’t feel it until we’re about to break. People think stress is an emotion. “I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m doing fine.” And the body is freaking out because they’re constantly in stress mode. What do you do as a chiropractor to help your patients to manage stress?



00:26:17 Dr. Trent Mozingo: So as a chiropractor, the adjustment will help with physical, mechanical stress. Lack of mobility in any spinal segment will create stress which will create inflammation. So that’s one thing. But lifestyle change is really a major part of my system. Is, you have to figure what’s pushing you down and then work on it. And unfortunately for most people, it’s their 9:00 to 5:00 job.  They don’t love it. That’s hard because you can’t quit your job. You have to keep working. We have to keep making money to live. So finding a hobby,

finding something that fuels your body with joy is a very important factor in health. You can eat clean all day long. But if you hate your life, you’re going to suffer from health issues. So you can’t just address one part of it. You have to get your whole mind, body, spirit.



00:27:21 Ashley James: I would add to that. Find a hobby that includes a community. Isolation can really increase stress. So if you have a job that is not bringing you joy and that’s stressful or your job – maybe you love your job but it’s stressful. So you have stress and you can’t change your job. It’s one of those things that we’re like, “No. I’m not changing my job. It does give me a certain amount of stress whether I like it or not. Whether I like my job or don’t like my job, it does give me stress.” So in your free time, it’s like what can you do? And I would say, if you can find a hobby that brings you joy and brings you a new community. Community has been shown to decrease stress and also decrease depression and suicide. And increase a sense of well being. There’s even studies that show it increases longevity.



00:28:09 Dr. Trent Mozingo: I would agree with you 100%. Something as simple as family dinner.



00:28:15 Ashley James: I love that you mentioned that because we’re jumping into – I want to transition into talking about your book. Family dinner, you know we used to eat in front of the TV. So unhealthy and yet so many of us do it. And so we bought – we went on – I think it was Craigslist at the time. But now, it would be Facebook Marketplace or Offer Up. But we went online and we found a beautiful used table. It was just gorgeous. A gorgeous wooden table with a with a leaf so we can we can expand it for company. And we bought these IKEA chairs, used also, which was so great because we spent like so little money and got this beautiful dining room set. And we chose to have family dinner there. And it really made a difference.

The desire to cook a whole foods from scratch, the desire to feed my family. My friend, Naomi, says – and I love it – she’s a great cook. She goes, “I don’t like cooking but I love – ” and it brings me joy – “I love knowing what’s going into my children.” And so for her, the joy comes from – not necessarily comes from cooking itself. You don’t have to love cooking. But you’ll love sitting down at the table and nourishing and nurturing your family and having that beautiful family time and knowing that you’re feeding their 37 trillion cells. Goodness, right? And for me, I love cooking. It’s so much fun. I’m fine if I burn something in the kitchen because it’s just I’m big on just science experiments. I’m like Edison. I just learn a new way of not how to do it. But explore in the kitchen and I love coming up with these great recipes. I love coming up with these delicious meals that are also really healthy that my four year old will eat and my husband will eat.  And that that fills me with joy.

And sitting down at the table and spending that 20 minutes at the table, a-half-an-hour at the table with the family is priceless. There’s no amount of sitting at a TV and eating dinner that it would ever fulfill. And what I noticed – and there’s been studies done – that we actually consume less calories and more densely nutritious food when we cook it and sit at a table and eat it versus sitting at a computer or at the TV when we’re distracted. And we’re not we’re just eating – we’re eating as a habit without even really tasting or being present to it. And so when we’re present to our family and present to our food sitting at a table, we’re nourishing our body, we’re decreasing our stress but we’re also consuming less calories. And we’re listening to the thermostat of our body tell us that we’re actually full when we’re full.



00:30:56 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Sure. I mean, you’re describing is you’re getting back that positive relationship with food. Because our culture has misconstrued the idea that food is about quantity at a cheap price. And the birth of the buffet, if you will –



00:31:27 Ashley James: And the Dollar Menu.



00:31:28 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yeah. We have an idea that food is just there to fill our tank and we keep moving forward. We have lost that bond and intimacy between this food that you’re sticking in your mouth is literally what builds your human body. You are nothing more than accumulation of everything you’ve eaten to this day. How good did you do?



00:31:57 Ashley James: Right. We need to remember that. We really need to remember, everything goes into our mouth is building ourselves. I mean do we really want ourselves built out of McDonald’s or some kind of box cereal? I just look at – oh, I look at all those aisles. I’ve said this on the show before. But my first awakening to healthy eating, my first awakening, I was really sick. I had polycystic ovarian syndrome, type two diabetes, chronic adrenal fatigue. I had chronic monthly infections for which I was on constant antibiotics for. So I was a mess. I could hardly function in life and I was in my 20s – in my 20s. And I was significantly overweight. And I was told by an endocrinologist I would never have kids. I didn’t fertility. And my husband, he was fairly fit because he was a carpenter but he had issues as well. But he was more functioning in the world than I was at the time. And this was back in 2008.

We watched one of the health documentaries on Netflix, like Food, Inc. or Forks Over Knives. And we heard shop the perimeter of the grocery store. And it was just like this new idea to me. Like, “Oh, you mean don’t go down the aisles and eat packaged food.” And I know that sounds so obvious now. But to a 20 year old with, like, six health problems, that wasn’t obvious advice. And so we chose to eat organic and shop the perimeter of the grocery store. And at the end of the month – the first month, I was amazed at how much square footage in the grocery store is completely useless crap.

It was just like, “Wow. We really don’t need to go down any of these aisles.” Maybe the bulk section for brown rice or lentils or something, right? Or maybe the spice section, which could be like a bulk section also for some grocery stores. But other than that, you just don’t – maybe some canned goods once in a while, like canned tomatoes. Single ingredient canned food is fine. But other than that, there’s no going down these aisles.

And in my first month of doing that, my chronic infections went away. And I thought if I can affect my health with one change to my diet, what else can I do? And that began my journey many, many years ago. So shifting that idea of what is really food? And do I really want to build cells out of what I’m eating today? And the meal that’s in front of me, this Dollar Menu or whatever, do I really want to build cells out of this?



00:34:33 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Sure. I always say, the biggest struggle we have as a culture in regard to our health is just the mixed emotion of who’s responsible for it. We have lost that self-responsibility. We don’t take responsibility for our health anymore. We wait until we’re sick and then we expect some doctor to fix it. And the perception that the only way to fix a problem is with a medication is being sold to everyone. And they’re buying. Everyone is buying in. And it’s costing – I think our healthcare costs over 1.3 trillion a year now.



00:35:18 Ashley James: Our nation and other nations like Canada, Australia, they have a little bit of a different medical system, obviously. But their numbers are not great either. But ours, the United States, spends the most out of every nation. Spends the most on healthcare and actually has the worst healthcare from all the industrialized nations. It’s just like the outcomes are horrible. And yet we’re spending the most. So the system is broken. It doesn’t work.

Most of my listeners have awoken to this. They understand this concept. Most of them – because they’re listening. If you’re listening, you’re taking responsibility on some level for your health because you’re willing to educate yourself and you’re excited to. And my listeners are really passionate and excited to learn from experts like you. So we do have a bit of a different demographic for people who are listening, which is great.



00:36:12 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yes. And there’s a lot more resources coming out that are opening so many eyes to this change – this beautiful change in healthcare in general from this reductionist alopathic thing to taking control, learning what food does. And that’s really to be one of those resources. That’s the reason I wrote the book in the first place. I was doing consultations for patients trying to explain this to them. And it would take an hour, two our consultations, and I was going to go broke. But it was my passion. So I had to figure out a way for people to learn what I – for people to gather what I’ve learned. All the pieces of this puzzle I’ve put together. So that’s where I started to write this book. And I was never a writer. I didn’t even like English class growing up. Like I said, I’m left handed. I was great at math. I’m not much of a writer. So to write a 350 page book, it took me some time but it really turned out pretty good. And as a resource, it really helps just nail it down, figure out why, what’s going wrong, and how to fix it.



00:37:21 Ashley James: So tell us about your book. Since you basically have compiled everything that you took. It would take like an hour or two hours to teach individual clients. And you compiled it into a book that you wish everyone knew. Don’t you just want to just download your book into everyone’s brain? Wouldn’t that make such a big difference in this world?



00:37:42 Dr. Trent Mozingo: It would be so easy because getting people to read a book these days is also difficult. YouTube is there. And that’s another avenue I plan to take to do some more audio ideas.



00:37:56 Ashley James: Have you recorded an audio version of your book?



00:37:59 Dr. Trent Mozingo: I’m working on it. I want to do it myself just to make it feel more genuine.



00:38:02 Ashley James: You should. Yeah. Totally do it yourself. You know what I love? I love it when authors go off script. Like, you’re reading your book and then all of a sudden you just get this idea in your head. And you’re like, “You know, I’m just going to tell them some stuff.” And it’s totally cool. I love the doctors that do that. The listener still gets the whole book but you get a little bit added things come to your mind and you just want to add in some stuff. I love audiobooks like that because they feel so genuine. They really feel like you’re just sitting with the doctor. So anyway, that’s my two cents when you finish recording your book.

And let us know when you finish recording your audio book and you release it. Or maybe we’ll have you back on or something to promote it and let us know about it. Because there are some listeners who won’t read books that they’ll definitely listen to them.

Now, your book is called The Weight Is Over. And you started telling me about it. I’m like salivating when you’re telling me about it. I got so excited. Like Pavlovian response to something exciting. You started by painting this picture. What happened to our food history? Like, what happened to food? I was just telling a guest or a listener this morning in the Facebook Group – in our Learn True Health Facebook Group – she said something like, why is it that my grandmother who raised – I don’t know how many – she said raised, like, seven children, for example. She’s like, why is that my grandmother who raised a bunch of children and my mom raised a bunch of children, they didn’t have these resources like the Learn True Health Podcast to help them? But they didn’t have the illnesses that we have and our children have. I keep thinking, how did my grandmother do it with seven or nine kids? But she also didn’t have all the problems we have. What has gone on?

And so I kind of went on a rant about like, well, in the last 30 years, there’s over 30,000 chemicals in our food that our body doesn’t even recognize. Think about everything in our environment that has completely changed.  And we just have so much artificial chemicals in our water and air and food that our body doesn’t even know what to do with. And then, of course now, it’s all hyper palatable, highly processed foods with salt, sugar and oil. And that just leads us down a really destructive path as we can see.

So I’d love for you to teach us something from your book. Tell us about the history of food as it relates to our health. Obviously, because food is our health, as you’ve pointed out. It builds our cells. And what’s happened in the last hundred years or so that has made it so that we are so sick now?



00:40:35 Dr. Trent Mozingo: That is the principle of the book is to help people to learn how the human body works. I grew up on a farm, we talked about that a bit ago. But the education that I got growing up actually played a huge role in my ability to write this book or even understand what I understand as far as the human body. Is because being the youngest of four children, my two older brothers were seven and nine years older than me, they were like my mentors. And my parents gave us a ton of responsibility. We had to fix things. So if it broke down, we didn’t have enough money to pay someone so we had to fix it. So most important education I got growing up is I learned how to figure out how things work. And that is the most valuable factor in trying to fix something. You can’t possibly fix a problem on a tractor or a wood splitter or a weed eater until you know how it works.

So as I got into chiropractic school, I realized that figuring out what is wrong with a patient, figuring out diagnosing a problem, is nothing more than clicking in your brain how the human body works and what would happen if it wasn’t working properly. That would be a symptom. Like a tractor not running would be a pretty serious symptom. You had to figure out what is wrong the engine. If someone’s thyroid gland wasn’t functioning properly, their metabolism was slow. I needed to know how the human body worked in order to be able to give them a possible probable fix.

So as I was researching biochemistry and how the human body worked, all these things started to link together. So that’s really where the book goes to, is teaching you how every human function is linked together. You can’t just break apart one part.

So I started to also learn that nutrition played a major role. And then I could see the writing on the wall that everyone is becoming overweight and diabetic, for the most part. And other conditions like Fibromyalgia is skyrocketing. And hypothyroid function is skyrocketing. And Synthroid is becoming the most prescribed medication in the country. And so I started to link these things together.

And as I started doing research on what happened, that really broke it open for me how food is the reason. And so I started to figure out what diets work better. And I started to write about them, you know, intermittent fasting or Mediterranean or keto diet or Atkins diet, all these different diets and why they don’t work. So that went into my research as well.

So then I started the link back to the history of mankind. As the human body was developed, we only had two stresses back in, we’ll say 180 A.D. Two stresses is all we had. We had to find food and we had to stay alive. Not get eaten as prey. That’s it. Finding a mate was another part of it but it wasn’t really a stress. That was the three functions of life is, finding food, not getting eaten as prey, and finding a mate and reproducing. Those are our three functions.



00:44:01 Ashley James: And we also had community. We lived as a tribe. We’re tribal people. We weren’t nomads. We lived as a community. So we didn’t have the stresses that we do now, like a mother isolated, having no help taking care of a newborn. We had the entire community. The tribe took care of all the children with the parents. And we also leaned on our sisters and our brothers and leaned on our aunts, leaned on the whole community. So that decreases stress a lot when you grow up as a tribe.



00:44:32 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Sure. And there were no lights. There were no televisions. There was no freezer. So food was very fresh, which was a great thing. Meat was very fresh because it was killed and eaten within a week. And when night fell, you fell asleep. When it was dark, you went to sleep. When the light came back, when the sun comes out, you woke up. And as I was studying that factor, then you can go into the cortisol and melatonin rhythm, if you want to. Where cortisol peaks in the morning. That gets you up and gets you ready for the day. And melatonin drops off. And then as the day goes on and you exercise, cortisol drops and melatonin spikes and makes you fall asleep and it happens daily. But that’s with a normal rhythm. That’s following daylight and dark.

Since then, we have TV shows on until 1:00 in the morning. Or night clubs open until 2:00 in the morning. And it’s just a totally different world. But more importantly, the food was very fresh. And we didn’t have a job. We just had to find food or do the community whatever your task was. It wasn’t like a job where you make money.

But around the 1800s, the industrial revolution happened. And farmers stopped – through the 1800s, one farmer would raise the tomatoes, one farmer would raise the pigs, one farmer would raise eggs, and you would share. That was another community thing. A very positive thing. You had a little general store, you trade, you had barter. That was life then.

But during the industrial revolution, everything changed. Because instead of that bartering system, instead of waking up every day with only a job to either help the community or feed the community, you had to go to work. Factory life became a thing. Services became a commodity. You had to make money then, to buy food.

And that really changed our perception of what food is. We went from a life centered around creating your food to nourish your body and your family and your community to a life of you go to work to buy food to feed your family.

And during that time people stopped really, like said, lose that intimacy with food. Where when you go to work – most people when they go to work, they don’t love their job. They can only wait to lunch. But it’s not because they get to nourish their human body with food. It’s because lunch means leaving work for 30 minutes or an hour. That is a very unhealthy relationship with food.

They’re not thinking that, “Okay. In one hour, I get to go and fill my body with B complex vitamins from a green leafy salad.” They think, “I want something quick so I can sit in my car and be out of work for 30 minutes.”



00:47:40 Ashley James: Or they’re looking to satisfy joy. That’s what I did for many years. I was really leaning on food for emotional support. So going to In and Out or going to Jack-in-the-Box or KFC or going out for sushi or Chinese food or pizza, you know, just all those fun foods was about fun and joy. Because that would help me decrease stress because it’s like a drug. You get to have an escape. It’s like I just was shooting up heroin going through the drive thru. It was like shooting up my own little drug. Because that would be that little break. That little 30 minute break was fun. Finding the pleasure in food. And that decreases stress temporarily. But then you’re right back at work and now your body’s inflamed from that horrible food. So now it increases more stress and it’s this vicious cycle.



00:48:42 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Sure. And then really, where we went as a country went wrong was in 1977. So during the 1900s, the industrial revolution, again, food started becoming processed. The people that were trying to keep it from being processed were being hushed by the powers that be, that being the people that are making money from food.

So the FDA was developed around 1900 or 1912, I think it was. There was a guy named Wiley – Dr. Wiley. He’s actually from Indiana. Not far from where I’m from. Interesting. But he started to discover how when you start bleaching wheat, you increase health problems. So he was against wheat being processed. It’s supposed to be aged. And the powers that be hushed him. And then he got kicked out of the FDA and the new owners took over.

But more importantly, in 77, a guy named George McGovern had a committee to try and stop processed foods. His committee was developed in the 60s. There was a CBS airing, I think it was, it was called Hunger in America, where Northern Alabama, Northern Mississippi into West Virginia, that little area there, was starving. They were underfed. There was no industry there. As the industrial revolution came about there wasn’t any food there because the local stopped growing food. And there wasn’t a lot of money to buy food so people were actually starving. Well, the government stepped in and they started a committee with Senator McGovern and he created the WIC program. The food stamp program to help those families at the areas. And it worked. They’re no longer hungry. Food stamps was a beautiful thing. It helped the people that couldn’t make money anymore – or couldn’t make enough money – I’m sorry – to feed the family as it should. Ironically, those areas are now overweight – the most overweight area in America.



00:51:00  Ashley James: Right. Because food stamps were – you couldn’t even buy potatoes with food stamps. You couldn’t buy healthy wholesome foods. You couldn’t buy fresh vegetables. And it was just – it’s like packaged. They wanted you to buy the Kellogg’s and the the Kraft.



00:51:24 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Our government subsidized food but they only subsidize the processed food that was making the food industry lots of money. They didn’t become overweight until many years later. So this a total afterthought. There’s no way to project that because at this point, in the 60s and 70s, they still thought that this food was perfectly safe and healthy. We were still being taught that this food is safe and healthy. But in 77 people started becoming overweight. During the 60s and 70s, the rest of the country we’re becoming unhealthy. Cancer levels are going up. Diabetes levels were going up. Heart disease was a big one that was going up. So Senator McGovern, also at that point, started to say that the government should step in and educate properly on healthy nutrition.

Unfortunately for us, he listened to Ancel Keys. If you know who that is. He did a seven country study, it’s called – where he cherry picked seven countries that showed that fat was the devil. And Senator McGovern listened to him. There was another guy doing research, named Yudkin, who was saying sugar is the devil. And Ancel Keys had a louder voice. So he hushed the Yudkin guy.


00:52:48 Ashley James: It’s so amazing when we look at history and it’s just one person. People sometimes feel powerless. Who am I? There’s billions of people and who am I to make a difference to this world. This, this story is an example of how one person can influence millions of people’s lives for generations. If you listen to Yudkin, how much different would the world be if we had reduced our sugar intake in the in the 70s and 80s and 90s, all the way to the day. If we had reduced our sugar intake versus making foods artificially low fat which then you put more sugar in, right?  Oh my gosh, that is just amazing. One person.



00:53:38 Dr. Trent Mozingo: And mainstream government talk was about how cholesterol was raised because of animal fat instead of sugar. But even worse for us as a country. Senator McGovern had the right idea. He made the McGovern Report and it was designed around just cutting calories. We’re eating too much. We need to eat healthier and more whole foods. More fruits and vegetables. And they’re shut him down. The powers that be, the medical in the food industry, shut it down because that, in 1977, they got shut down. And then his committee got shut down. And in the 80s, 1981 or two, that’s when we got the food pyramid. That is where the special interest of the food and pharmaceutical industry took precedence over American health in 1977. And if you look at any chart, you can look at any of them, diabetes prevalence, ADHD prevalence, inflammation in general prevalence, heart disease prevalence, all of them. If you look at them on the chart, they are steady until about 50. And they climb a little bit. In 60, they climb a little bit. In 70, they climbed. In 80, it skyrockets.



00:54:53 Ashley James: When the little climbs are the transitioning from the single income family where the mother stays home and cooks meals from whole foods. And that in America and other industrialized nations where we could afford to have, most of the time – obviously, there’s exceptions to the norm – but most of the time, the husband went to work, the mother stayed home and cooked. Or if the mother had a job as well, there was an agreement that the family ate at home. Eating at restaurants was a rare treat. And that there was no such thing as like, delivery pizza. I mean, really think about the 50s. we’re eating, we’re getting together and sitting down as a family and we’re eating our meals. In that these meals, we know what all the ingredients are.



00:55:43 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Absolutely. And since then, it’s gotten – I mean, it just gotten worse.



00:55:49 Ashley James: Right. The invention of the microwave dinner, the frozen dinner, right? Was that in the 60s that that came into play? The family would then just get these little frozen dinners and put them in the oven.



00:56:00 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Sure. TV dinners.



00:56:02 Ashley James: TV dinner.



00:56:03 Dr. Trent Mozingo: And they showed the commercials eating in front of the TV on your TV tray. That became normal. And it made sense for people. It was easy, quick, fast. You can get back to work and make more money. Where you buy an expensive car and house but don’t buy expensive food, that is our culture. And it is creating this epidemic.



00:56:27 Ashley James: It just slowly — if we caught it in the 60s or 70s, if we’d caught it, instead of going fat is bad for the last 40 years. If we had gone highly processed sugar and probably processed food is bad and stick with how we ate in the 40s and before that, we would definitely have significantly less disease. Do you think – I mean, this is a conspiracy theory. But do you think that the pharmaceutical companies influenced – really helped try to influence the Food and Drug Administration and try to influence the government to create the food triangle, the food pyramid, in order to create disease? Do you think that it was really conscious? Like, “Look, if we do this we’re going to create more disease and sell more drugs. So we really need to push this agenda.”



00:57:29 Dr. Trent Mozingo: I would say they had an agenda to make money. That’s the best way I can explain that. I can’t say that they wanted to make people sick. But they wanted to sell medicine. I think they genuinely thought their medicine helped. Again, the pharmaceutical industry never sees the whole big picture. They see a problem. They try to fix it with a synthetic idea. They try to synthesize health. They genuinely think they’re doing it right. It’s just that they’re wrong.

So they’re trying to fix an issue without cutting off the source of the problem, I guess is the best way for me to explain that. because the source of the problem continues to make them money. And the source of the problem continues to make the food industry money. So what they’re doing is basically in this big cycle of I make money. You make money. I make money. You make money. I make money. You make money. People are staying alive. The longevity –



00:58:35 Ashley James: Long enough for them to make money. They’re staying alive long enough to make money. But our longevity is going down that –



00:58:47 Dr. Trent Mozingo: We have started [inaudible 00:58:48].



00:58:48 Ashley James: Right. We started to go where our children will not – like they’re saying, on average, our children will die before we die. If we live to our 70s, our children are going to live to be 60, basically. It’s going downhill. They’re seeing a decline in our longevity. So we’re really, really going the wrong direction. But we’re seeing that one in three people will have a diagnosis of cancer in their lifetime. That 70% of people have a weight problem. One in three people have pre-diabetes or a diabetic. There’s a major chronic epidemic of – over 70% of adult Americans are on at least one prescription medication. And that it’s being taught that that is normal.

I rarely see MDs. I go to a Naturopath. But I went to an MD yesterday for a checkup – a female checkup, which I’m happy to go to because I really like her. But I don’t buy into any of the – you know, like she said, “I’m going to be 40 soon so I should get a mammogram.” And I almost laughed so hard. I’m like, “Yeah. That’s not going to happen.” And then they offered me the flu shot. They offered me the flu shot and then took my blood pressure, which was really laughable. Because I became so irate them offering me the flu shot and then they took my blood pressure. So my blood pressure was through the roof, which was really funny. Because a week ago when I had it at my Naturopath’s office, it was like 110 over 70. But in the MD’s office, it was like 137 over 93. And I’m like, “Yeah. Because you just offered me a flu shot.” Really, they do that in that order. Offer them a flu shot then quickly take their blood pressure while they’re still upset and then get them on blood pressure medication.



01:00:28 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Oh, yeah. You can take this, It won’t hurt you. That’s what they’ll tell you.



01:00:31 Ashley James: Right. Exactly. Yeah. So they were shocked because the nurse was asking me some details before the doctor comes in the office. “And what medications are you on?” Because I had written zero on the form and she didn’t believe that I was on zero medications. I think she asked me three different ways. I’m like, “I’m 39 years old. I’m not on any medications.” And she couldn’t understand it. Like, it didn’t make sense to her. Because every single person that goes in the office is on at least one medication. Because it’s rare, it is rare to be healthy enough to not need a medication. And that is the state of our health right now. So you help people heal their bodies with diet. You help them bring their bodies back into balance and get off of medications healthfully because their body has come back into balance. And what we’re being taught in the mainstream by our by our MDs – and they’re lovely people by the way. Like, this MD I went to yesterday, I love her. She’s a great OB-GYN. And I really, really love her for that specialty. But I would never take food advice, for example.

You just have to know. You don’t go to your mechanic and get carpentry advice, right? You don’t go to your carpenter and get electrical advice, unless that’s their specialty, unless they actually know what they’re talking about. You go to the right professional for the right information. And she is wonderful in what she does in her specialty. But our MDs are taught that food plays a very minor role in our health. And we really need to manage our health with drugs. Because that’s their education. So we have to know to go to the right doctor for the right information. And when we go to a chiropractor, we’re actually getting more science based nutritional information from our chiropractor than we ever would from an MD. Because don’t you have at least an entire year of nutritional training in school, whereas MDs have something like eight hours.


01:02:34 Dr. Trent Mozingo: There’s always some – okay. So nutritional training, that’s hard to explain. Because you can’t just train someone on nutrition. You have to train them on what nutrition breaks down into. So what foods break down into is what’s actually important. Whether it’s minerals or amino acids or proteins or whatever.

So in chiropractic education, this is the most important factor here. MDs are doing everything that they’re taught. They’re not doing anything wrong. They’re doing what they’re trained to do. They’re trained in a reduction style thought process. What they’re trained to do is come up with a symptom, figure out a test to pinpoint exactly what is wrong and only address that. They keep blindfolds on how the integration and interconnection of the human body works, which is why we have specialists. We have a kidney doctor, a heart doctor, and oncologist doctor, an OB-GYN. They’re trained for one specific thing. And that doesn’t work.

Because for example, blood pressure, it goes up. So we send people to cardiology. Makes sense, right? Why wouldn’t you send them to a Nephrologist for their kidney? Because a kidney plays more role in blood pressure than your heart does. Your heart is just pumping the stuff. The kidney is actually what retain water and keep your volume. Those things always blow my mind. Which is why when you go to an orthopedic doc when you have swollen lower leg, they never really address the kidney function. They’ll send you to a heart doctor. In reality, it’s usually the kidneys are not releasing the right amount of water. You’re retaining it. Your blood is pooling. And then secondary, you can do a cardio.

So in that thought process, they are missing all of these big pictures. Which is why when you go to one doc, you get a med for blood pressure, which jacks up your kidneys. Then you go the next doc and get a medication to help your kidneys function. And all the while these medications are being processed by the liver and messing it up too.



01:05:02 Ashley James: Does high blood pressure medication harm the kidneys?



01:05:06 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Well, it changes the way they function. A water pill, for example, it opens the kidneys up. It makes you pee more. So what they’re doing is they’re synthesizing another function. They’re basically altering another function to help the one function that they’re trying to treat, which just creates another dysfunction. Then they medicate for that which creates another dysfunction, which is grassroots marketing. They’re going to get you on three meds, not one.



01:05:35 Ashley James: They’re forcing – forcing the body to do something. And it’s the hubris of the pharmaceutical industry and the pharmaceutical trained doctor to believe that we are smarter than the body. Right? Because I’m going to take a drug and force the body to do something, which then has all these other disastrous effects because we’re not getting to the root cause. And we’re really just still treating symptoms.



01:06:07 Dr. Trent Mozingo: They’re trying to supersede the majesty of nature. The body created itself from two cells. And they’re trying to think that their medication is necessary. I don’t understand that thought process. Your 37 trillion cells from two. And you think your body is deficient on blood pressure medication? I can’t perceive that.



01:06:33  Ashley James: So when you have a patient come in with high blood pressure, what do you do?



01:06:38 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Talk to him about what’s going wrong. So that’s the beauty of the second section of the book. I go through in detail how everything is connected and how everyone is at the same – they’re on the same slippery slope. And that goes through the functions. So I teach you how food works inside your body. What happens when you don’t eat the right food inside the body? And I’ll also explain to you how the medical system is doing it backwards? That section too. And if you want, I can explain to you how we are at the level we are in a very systematic way.



01:07:15 Ashley James: Please.



01:07:18 Dr. Trent Mozingo: So again, I studied how the human body works. I can’t fix it until I know how it works. So I realized that it’s all a very fluid motion. When you eat, it goes in your digestive system. Makes sense. Well, your digestive system is made to break down proteins, fats, and carbohydrates. That is all. Your mouth breaks down carbohydrates and fats. There’s enzymes released in the mouth to break down carbohydrates and fats. And it breaks down fats. Because if you ever pick up a steak, you get slime on your hands. Right? And you can’t get that slime off.



01:07:55 Ashley James: You mean raw? Are you talking about raw? If you touch raw chicken or –



01:08:00 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yes. If you pick up a fish, it’s slimy. And you can’t get that slime off your hands until you do soap. Well, you didn’t have lipase in your mouth, your mouth will stay slimy. That’s what’s it there for, to clean your mouth. That’s an interesting thought.

So you have lipase and amylase. I think that’s the one in the mouth. That breaks down carbohydrates and fats. Now, amylase is in there or the carbohydrate breaking down enzymes, I think it’s amylase in the mouth. It’s there for a reason. So it’s monitoring how much sugar is coming in. It’s a monitoring system. If you have a food that is only carbohydrates, which is a fruit or vegetable or grain, they won’t have much fat so the lipase won’t be usable. So the body knows carbohydrates are coming. So the mouth is now signaling the pancreas. “Look, pancreas. We have sugar coming.” Sugar is coming, you need to get ready with some with some insulin. Get ready. Get it. Chew it. Swallow it. It goes to the stomach. Pancreas kicks in.

If you eat something and it’s a fish or meat, it’s going to be fatty. It’s not going to have any carbohydrate in it so it won’t register that for the pancreas. But it’s going to tell the pancreas we got fat and protein coming. “All right. Pancreas, you gotta get ready because that releases protein digestive enzymes. Also liver and gallbladder, you gotta get ready because you’re going to release bile to break down the fat.”



01:09:29 Ashley James: I love that you’re painting this picture. Because we don’t chew our food enough. We really don’t. Especially if we’re eating in our car, like you said, that quick lunch break or we’re sitting in front of the TV, we just don’t chew our food. It’s so funny. I’ve seen this on so many Facebook Groups that I’m in for health stuff where people go, “In the toilet, I saw -” you know, whatever they ate, they’re like “- does that mean I’m not digesting?” And everyone is saying, “You’re not chewing your food.” We think that we’re basically swallowing food whole and that our gut is supposed to digest it. But the major part of our digestion starts with chewing.

And so how many chews do we do? Like, I’ve heard 20. I’ve heard someone say 50. How much should we chew the food until it’s properly digested? Like, the process of digestion starts in the mouth.



01:10:22 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Sure. The mouth is setting your digestive system up for what is coming. It’s getting your body ready. So chewing is a time. It’s a monitoring system. There’s no one size fits all amount of chews per food because some things are chewier than others. Some of them are pretty soft and you can kind of squish them with your tongue on the top of your mouth. I do that a lot with fruit, because my teeth are really sensitive.

So after you chew and you swallow, the body has already figured it out. “Okay. I got proteins, I got fats, and I got carbs coming.” That’s what the mouth tells it. So it drops into the stomach. Or or the stomach is a very, very, very, very, very, acidic place. Hydrochloric acid and pepsin are released from the stomach lining to continue to break down the proteins. They’re very hard to break down. It needs to be super acidic in the stomach to break down food. Now, it’s made to break down proteins, fats, and carbohydrates. When you put chemicals in your stomach, your stomach can’t break it down. It doesn’t know how. It’s like putting vegetable oil in a gasoline car. It’s not going to turn out very good for you. It doesn’t know how to burn it. It doesn’t know how to metabolize. It doesn’t know how to break it down. So that’s when we get acid reflux. The stomach acid is ineffective. So your stomach acid falls. The levels fall. Your stomach becomes basic. Not too acidic. It becomes too basic. Now, there’s only two directions for food to go, down the small intestine or back up.

Well if it’s not digested, the small intestine doesn’t want it. It can’t break it down. And this is bad news across the board. So acid reflux. You want to regurgitate back out. That’s what the body is trying to do. Get this junk food that you just stuck it out. The medical world says, “Let’s just shut that function down. Let’s use antacids.” This is a terrible idea.



01:12:19 Ashley James: Because the problem in the first place was not enough acid, not enough digestion in the stomach, and not enough digestion in the mouth. I was just thinking as you’re talking about chewing, it’s like people who have weak digestive tracts, who have constant problems with bloating or gas or diarrhea or constipation or problems with GERD, with acid reflux, that if they spent more time chewing – my mom would light candles turn on classical music, and turn off all the lights in the kitchen where our kitchen table was. And she would have a bunch of candles lit on the table and she would set an atmosphere. Which is so funny because I was a kid and my dad doesn’t care at all. But my mom was, she found that it would help her digestion if she set the ambience to just take a breath, calm down, and set the atmosphere for digestion.



01:13:16 Dr. Trent Mozingo: That’s a fun fact. Because you’re describing the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system. You can’t digest in the sympathetic nervous system.



01:13:25 Ashley James: The fight or flight response.



01:13:26 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yeah. The fight or flight response will shut off your internal organs to put more blood flow and energy to your muscles so you can run or fight. So she’s calming herself down to get into that parasympathetic rest and digest system. And that does make a lot of sense.



01:13:42 Ashley James: And it also helps us chew because now we’re calmer. And now we’re not trying to race through the meal. So we’re willing to sit there and chew and then swallow and enjoy the company we have and enjoy the food. But also your taking the extra time to tell the pancreas and tell the stomach and tell the liver and gallbladder to get ready to digest and assimilate the food.



01:14:12 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Sure. So as it keeps moving down the digestive system, the stomach’s got to work. It’s the most important thing for digestion is to liquefy your food. It needs to be liquefied for the most part before it hits your small intestine or else we’re going downhill fast. So antacids are, in my opinion, the worst thing you can stick in your mouth. You shut off the stomach acid, you are going to have problems. Fun fact, I have never had a fibromyalgia patients come in my office that doesn’t have a history of antacid use.



01:14:47 Ashley James: Yeah. That makes sense.



01:14:49 Dr. Trent Mozingo: And that’s actually what really got me thinking about this inner connection is fibromyalgia. And I’ll explain that in a second. So as the time goes on and the body is starving, right? This is one of the main problems of our overweight epidemic. We are starving for food because, actually, we’re starving for nutrients. Because there’s none in our food. So the body is just constantly saying, “I need vitamins and minerals. You’re giving me zero vitamins and minerals.” Your muscles need them every day, every second, every cell, trillions of them need them all the time. And we’re giving them zero. I have patients that come in and have zero, zero whole foods in their diet every day and drink nothing but soda, no water. And I explained to them, “Have you ever fed your plant Coca-Cola?” And they said no. I said if you do it, it will die. And they don’t like that conversation.

So water is very essential. But you can’t drink a lot of water when you’re eating either because that will also increase the base level in your stomach. Decrease the acidity. Because water is pretty much even base – a neutral base. So anyway, as we get hungry and the body just starts to do whatever it can to let this junk food go through the digestive tract. We don’t have an enzyme in our pancreas to digest chemicals. We can’t. It just doesn’t work. So all things considered in the small intestine is where your nutrients are absorbed into the body. Not the large intestine. The small intestine. The large intestine – Dr. McBride talk to you about it. I heard your podcast. – that’s the most important as far as that GAPS diet. The large intestine is more of your immunity, more of your brain connection. But small intestine is actually the workhorse. It’s the one that brings your food into your body.

And it comes in through the portal vein. The mesenteric veins around every bit of the intestines and they filter straight through to the liver. So as we eat this junk food, our digestive system crashes. We have digestive distress from constipation to diarrhea to gallbladder dysfunction to pancreatic inflammation, pancreatitis, if you will, all these things are major problems in the digestive system. But unfortunately, the bad stuff gets through. And the liver becomes toxic. This is the main problem for most folks. Because liver becomes inflamed and your midsection grows. Fat around the liver.

Fatty liver disease is bad. And it’s an epidemic. But more importantly, drug induced liver injury is more prevalent than alcohol now.



01:17:46 Ashley James: Well, like Stanton’s are so, so, so common. Cholesterol lowering drugs. But no one takes the time to learn how they function. And when people learn how they function, they’re really motivated to not get – not beyond that and to get off them and to change their diet and lifestyle to create healthy cholesterol. Because we don’t just want to lower cholesterol. That’s such a misnomer. In fact, triglycerides are the marker, really, that we need to look at. But to have healthy levels of cholesterol, we need a really clean healthy diet and good – moving our bodies in a way that brings us joy every day. And that really helps bring cholesterol back into balance. And obviously, avoiding processed foods that raise the blood sugar like flour and sugar itself.

But what people don’t know is that these cholesterol lowering drugs how they function

because people think magically – just magically, they lower cholesterol. But what they’re doing is they damage the liver on purpose. They’re like punching your liver and they damage your liver on purpose to the point where you’re liver ceases to function correctly, because our liver makes 30% of our cholesterol. If someone eats a diet with animals in it, 30% of your cholesterol on average is made by your liver. If you eat no animals at all and you’re eating no cholesterol, your liver produces all of your cholesterol. If you’re like a raw vegan or something and you’re getting absolutely no fat whatsoever, I mean you’re just getting such a small amount of fat from fruit basically, those people have healthy cholesterol levels. But they’re not eating any because their liver produces cholesterol. And so the majority of our older population is automatically put on Stanton’s.

There’s a few people on our Facebook Group have said – in the Learn True Health Facebook Group have said that when they went into the hospital, they were automatically given cholesterol. The people that get admitted to hospitals are automatically given cholesterol  lowering medications, given Stanton’s. And what the Stanton’s do is they bruise and harm the liver to the point where the liver ceases to function and ceases to make cholesterol. But that does nothing to stop you from eating cholesterol, which isn’t necessarily bad. And that’s a whole myth busting. We could have you back on for an entire episode around that. And it doesn’t necessarily affect the damage done by the – so triglycerides being you’re seeing damage being done. It’s like seeing the smoke, right? They’re altering the smoke. They’re not they’re not putting out the fire. And in fact, they’re making a whole new fire in the body. So there’s a lot of myth around cholesterol. But you’re saying that the pharmaceuticals people are on are damaging the liver, are clogging it up, and are causing fatty liver syndrome more so than alcoholism causes fatty liver.



01:21:00  Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yes. Yes.



01:21:00 Ashley James: My mom died of liver failure. She died of liver cancer.



01:21:06 Dr. Trent Mozingo: I’m sorry.



01:21:06 Ashley James: So I personally have seen how quickly someone can go south when their liver is compromised, you die quickly. It is a painful and quick death within a matter of weeks the more and more it gets compromised. If our liver is compromised, we are guaranteeing that we’re having a shorter lifespan that is going to be filled with more problems down the road. So we want to protect our liver and not damage it permanently from years of pharmaceutical use.

And when I say pharmaceutical use, there’s always that caveat of pharmaceuticals that save people’s lives and that’s been phenomenal. We’re obviously not – there’s no dogmatic thinking here. If there’s a drug to save your life, I want you to be alive. But if there’s an unnecessary drug that people are just being put on because that’s just what doctors do. All the doctors are putting everyone on sentence because that’s just like the new thing that they’re all doing. And it doesn’t actually help you.

And I’ve had four cardiologists on the show, all of them reverse heart disease with diet. All of them. And they all say, all four of them have said that Stanton’s do not prevent heart disease. The only thing they’ve seen in studies is that Stanton’s, after your first heart attack, if you then get on Stanton’s, can marginally prevent the second heart attack.



01:22:40 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yeah. I read that study. You know what I think? It actually works to marginally prevent the second heart attack is having a heart attack.



01:22:51 Ashley James: Right. Because it wakes them up and go, “Oh. I lived. I should really start shaking myself.”



01:22:54 Dr. Trent Mozingo: “Hey, I probably should do something here.”



01:23:00 Ashley James: That’s so funny. And then they’re taking that data and going, “It was the Stanton’s that’s helping.” That’s so funny.



01:23:07 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yeah. So the liver, again, you’re right. It’s so vitally important. It’s actually the only organ that can regenerate. If you [inaudible 01:23:20], it will grow back. It’s amazing how the liver works. So as I talked about in this book and further down this rabbit hole, digestion is number one. When it goes down, you’re going slippery slope. And it’s a very slippery slope. Because the liver becomes toxic. Because your digestive system starts letting junk through. So your liver becomes jacked up on high fructose corn syrup. And it’s in everything.

Which is why everyone has liver dysfunction and digestive dysfunction and low thyroid function. Everyone that’s overweight, this is where they’re at. Their doctor can run tests all day long and say, “Nope. Your TSH levels are fine.” Which is a total joke of a test as far as thyroid function goes. But if your body temperature is under 98.6, it’s not good news. Your metabolism is slow and it’s because of liver dysfunction and thyroid dysfunction. And I say that because the thyroid actually functions in the liver. They’re connected. This is a connection, I don’t help people to understand.


You go into a doctor’s office and they prescribed you Synthroid and they don’t ever address your liver enzymes. They’re doing you a disservice, because the thyroid gland releases two hormones, T4 and T3. T4 has a longer shelf life than T3. It will last longer in your body. T3 is the usable form of thyroid hormone. T4 is not. The thyroid makes T4. The T4 goes to the liver to be converted into T3. And that is part of cholesterol metabolism to make your human body up the

temperature, your thyroid function. So when your liver is fatigued, your cholesterol metabolism is wrecked, and not helped by Stanton’s drugs, your thyroid function decreases. So your metabolism decreases and weight gain becomes inevitable. You can’t help it.


And this is where I start to pound the idea is like, standalone weight loss is never going to work. You have to address functionality in your human body. That will make you lose weight as a side effect, for the most part.



01:26:35 Ashley James: I love it. I love it weight loss becomes a side effect of better health.



01:26:39 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yes. Better liver function, better thyroid function. Because your liver has to help the thyroid regulates body temperature. So any person listening, if you check your body temp and it’s way under 98, you got some work to do. That’s  a good place to start. That’s a good starting point to say, “All right. It’s time for me to make some changes.” Because you need your body temp to – you need your body temperature to be where it’s supposed to be to burn calories at rest, which is the most abundant form of calorie usage of the day. Your exercise only counts for like 10 to 20% of your calorie usage. So you need to use it through normal metabolic function.



01:27:24 Ashley James: That sounds similar to Dr. Wilson. I had him on the show. He figures out if someone’s having thyroid problems by having them take their temperature consistently throughout the day for a few days. And if they’re under the norm, then – their thyroid problem might not even show up on blood work because he talks about how it might be the receptors. That the thyroid is working but that their thyroid receptors are off and so he’s looking at temperature to see what’s going on. And if our the temperature is low, then that’s a sign that something – somewhere in the undercurrent system, whether it be the receptors or up in the thyroid or up in the pituitary – hypothalamus pituitary access somewhere along the way, there’s something going on.

But you’re saying, we need to look at what’s coming in our body three times a day, which is the food we’re eating. And we need to look at the liver because the liver is compromised drastically because of our diet. And most people are on some form of medication or have been on medications that if the liver is compromised then we’re not digesting, we’re not detoxifying, we’re not metabolizing. It’s just everything gets clogged up in the body. And if we can’t get rid of the toxins, it gets stored in the fat cells.



01:28:49 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Sure. And then we got more problems for the thyroid gland. And which another reason – I mean, more reasons that’s becoming such mainstream epidemic of low thyroid function is toxicity, as you just mentioned, is huge. So the thyroid gland, it makes two hormones, like I said. Those hormones are consisting of two amino acids, iodine and tyrosine. These two things come from your food. They have to come from your food. Iodized table salt is what the medical system designed back in the 60s to prevent goiter. I wouldn’t [inaudible 01:29:27] but there was goiters everywhere and they put iodine in a table salt and the goiters went away. That’s important. That’s how important iodine is. If you’re iodine deficient, your thyroid will become distressed. We don’t eat enough fish or seafood, where iodine is naturally coming from. Tyrosine comes from green leafy vegetables and animal meats. We don’t eat enough of those and our digestive systems aren’t able to break them down when we do anymore. So you’re deficient in tyrosine as well.

You can’t make a thyroid hormone without the building blocks. So there’s a major problem we have. More importantly, iodine is halogens. There’s other halogens on the periodic table. If you’re familiar, there’s fluorine, there’s iodine, there’s bromine, and there’s chlorine. Well, chlorine is in our drinking water. That’s bad. Because iodine and the other halogens will block the uptake of iodine. They’re like all brothers and sisters fighting. So if you’re toxic in chlorine, you won’t be able to uptake as much iodine as you would like to. So chlorinated water is bad to drink. Also bleached wheat flour, white bread is bleached. That’s also toxic for your thyroid gland.

Fluorine, which is found in Teflon, which is why it’s bad to eat scratched Teflon, or things cooked in a scratched Teflon pan.



01:30:55 Ashley James: Let’s just agree that any nonstick Teflon surface is bad for us no matter what. Because you can’t guarantee that you’re not going to scratch it. And the off gas – when you would have heat them it off gases and that’s dangerous.



01:31:09 Dr. Trent Mozingo: There’s a great documentary called, The Devil We All Know. It was on Netflix. And it goes into – I think it’s 3M is the company that was creating nonstick stuff. And they were pumping the waste into the rivers. And it’s unbelievable how many people are affected. It went all the way – they put so much in the rivers it back fed up river into the Ohio and all the way down the Ohio River Valley. And as I watched this, I thought, “Well, fluorine flooring is terrible for your thyroid gland.” Everyone in the Ohio River Valley – I think, lymphoma is another major problem from fluorine.

There’s like lawsuits up and down the Ohio River Valley of people dying from liver disease, liver – no. I’m sorry – thyroid disease, thyroid cancer, and lymphoma from this fluorine being pumped in. It’s a great documentary I suggest everyone watch that.

And then we also have bromine which is in flame retardants which is also on stain resistant stuff.



01:32:11 Ashley James: So you’re getting – yeah. You’re getting the children’s clothing that’s stain resistant. And their winter clothing is covered in it.



01:32:19 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Toxic for the thyroid gland.



01:32:19 Ashley James: Oh my gosh. And then their mattresses are covered in – flame retardant mattresses. Your carpeting has it. Your coat has it. That’s why when they do testing, they find that the air quality in your home or in your office is ten times more toxic than if you live downtown. Imagine the pollution of living downtown in whatever major city. That pollution is actually fresher air and better for you. Someone living homeless is breathing better air than you are in your home. Because we’re breathing in the flame retardants and all the off gassing.



01:32:58 Dr. Trent Mozingo: It’s on automotive seats. So every road trip, you pound that stuff in your body. And worse off, it’s vital for infants in neural development. Thyroid function is. So we’re putting flame retardant clothes or stain retardant clothes and these kids and its destructive to their thyroid gland, which is an important factor in neural development. It’s huge. Everything is so related to our health. And we are just waiting to go to the doctor and figure out what med we can take. You know, it’s crazy.



01:33:31 Ashley James: I love that you’re pointing out these different things and not only are in our food but in our air that bind to the receptors. So they’re invasive. They’re something invasive that is clogging up the receptors in our cells. So the cells cannot receive the T3 –  the healthy thyroid hormone that it needs to receive. And thyroid affects all the cells. It’s not just one or two things. I mean, it’s affecting everything. It’s telling the whole body what to do in terms of metabolism –



01:34:06 Dr. Trent Mozingo: It’s like your body’s thermostat. It’s your entire body’s thermostat to run your temp. It what it does.



01:34:12 Ashley James: Another thing is that 25% of our TR is converted in the gut. So if you have dysbiosis and you’ve been on antibiotics and you have poor gut health, you’re not converting your T3 enough. Now you’re, 25% less T3. And then also your serotonin, which is converted in the gut. So we see that people have depression and they have mental health issues. That the mental health issues are sexually symptoms. So maybe they get a diagnosis of bipolar or depression, but they’re actually symptoms of a physical root cause.



01:34:54 Dr. Trent Mozingo: And it’s the same thing. I mean, what causes the dysbiosis? What causes poor normal flora is the same thing. It’s poor diet choices which wreak havoc on the digestive tract, which jacks up the small intestine, and allows it to start having a bad bacteria overgrowth, and then it shoots on down. CBOE, there’s a huge study, everyone’s talking about CBOE is correlated with fibromyalgia. And I can’t explain to these people, no. The CBOE is not causing fibromyalgia. What’s causing CBOE is the same cause of fibromyalgia. It’s we’re eating poor  foods and we are vitamin deficient. More importantly, for fibromyalgia, is B2 and B3. Those are what are tasked in the – I think it’s the pyruvate chain – to take lactic acid out of the muscles.

And if you can’t do that, you basically have muscle soreness all the time. And if you’re deficient, you can’t do that. So the fibromyalgia epidemic is basically after a workout muscle soreness, they’re stuck with that.



01:35:54 Ashley James: Right. Because their body is not converting the lactic acid.



01:35:56 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Back. Yes. It’s not coming out of the muscles. Sure. So that’s the first major principles of the book is the digestive system matters, the liver is huge, and if it’s wrong, your thyroid gland goes wrong. But then it goes in to tie into stress and the adrenal glands. Because stress sends out cortisol, which also goes to liver and also shuts off thyroid function.

So if you’re stressed, your metabolism slows down. People that are stressed all day at their job, have a slower metabolism and they can’t help it.



01:36:31 Ashley James: I love learning this. It really freaked me out that when we are in stress mode and it’s healthy to have a good stress response. Because if there’s, all of a sudden, a boulder on the highway, I want my freaking adrenaline to go up. I want to be able to maneuver in a split second. I want to be able to look around, put on my signal, and safely avoid that boulder. But then I want to just, like, chill and my body goes back into the parasympathetic nervous system response of rest and digest. And it’s done. So I want to be able to jump into stress mode to survive and then come back into relax and healing mode as often as possible. Coming back and staying in healing mode as often as possible as long as possible.

But what’s interesting is that when we have cortisol, when cortisol goes up, which is like we say adrenaline. When cortisol goes up, when the stress hormone goes up, it tells the pancreas to produce less insulin to drive blood sugar up and keep it elevated to ensure that muscles –  to run away from the – muscles have this energy. And now we have prolonged high blood sugar, which causes body wide systemic inflammation and damage to all the cells. So just by having a stress response – having too much stress response, basically living in stress mode, we’re causing damage to every cell in the body.

That’s just amazing how – now, it would work if we were living in the woods and chilling out and only in stress mode when we had to run away from a bear once in a while. That would work because I want to be able to like outrun that bear. So I want my pancreas to do that. To produce less insulin, to artificially keep the blood sugar high,  to be able to keep the nutrients so that my arms and legs don’t run out of sugar so I can outrun the bear. So we want to outrun the bear and survive to live another day. So it’s okay that in those two minutes of running and climbing a tree or whatever I gotta do to get away from that bear or fight it that I am able to shut off every other process in my body that isn’t essential to surviving the next two minutes. But we live in that state constantly. So we’re actually damaging our body constantly because we’re not in a healing mode. We’re in a fight or flight mode. I mean, our body is really intelligent. But we’re the ones that are driving the bus. So we’re making the decisions that keep us in that fight or flight response. And then of course, the foods we eat are then triggering stress response as well.

I know it’s a little bit doom and gloom what we’ve been talking about. But I want the listeners to know there’s this beautiful sort of light at the end of the tunnel or beautiful –  it’s like the light that – the rays of light are parting the clouds. The fact that you are in control is just the hope that we want to give you and let you know that yes, there’s toxins in all the materials in our house that we need to really be aware of. The cleaning formulas, off gas, even what’s underneath our sink right now is off gassing is creating toxins in our environment. But we have the ability to control it so we can get a healthy mattress. Or we can choose furniture that doesn’t have flame retardants. And we can choose natural cleaning products. So we can take active steps, just baby steps, one at a time to make sure the air in our house is clean. The water that we’re drinking. Maybe get a Berkey or get a reverse osmosis. Get something that’s making sure the water is clean. And then choosing organic food as much as possible. Choosing whole foods as much as possible.

And now we’re going to get into food next because I want to know what your take is on what a healing and a healthy diet is. But the fact that you have control. And no matter what your budget is, there are lots of home remedies on YouTube. Learn how to make your own cleaners that are really effective, that are nontoxic. You can save money. I can’t believe how much money I’ve actually saved eating a whole foods plant based diet that’s organic. So there’s a way to save money and do this as well. There’s so many things you can do. Just take the baby steps. And every time you make a better choice, you know you’re going in the right direction for your liver, for your thyroid, for your gut. Just baby steps everyday. Take the right step every day to build back a healthy body.

So yeah, there’s a lot of dangers out there. And a lot of things that – we could focus on the negative and the fear mongering. But I want to leave listeners empowered and knowing that they’re in control. And ultimately, they’re going to create a healthier life because of the things they’re learning from you today. So a lot of my listeners have dysbiosis and have shared with me that they have symptoms of small intestinal bacterial overgrowth.

And it then becomes this question like, do they get on the FODMAPS diet or the GAPS diet or some kind of diet to starve the bad bacteria. Or do they really just get on some herbs and kind of like nuclear bomb the bad and the good bacteria. Wipe them out with olive leaf extract or whatever and all those different herbs and then rebuild. What’s your take on how someone can come back from dysbiosis?



01:42:06 Dr. Trent Mozingo: So my system, what I focus on is less of the large intestine, more of small intestine function. But yeah, so there’s things that help combat those. I’m not an herbalist. I am not good with those. For me, you need to go to a specialist. You need to go to a Naturopath or someone that they work with herbs all the time. Because they can be pretty anecdotal. They can pack a lot of punch. So doing that correctly is pretty important in my opinion.

But starving the bacteria, it’s not hard to do. The bad bacteria thrives on sugar. So first cut that out. That’s number one, any liquid calories cut that out. You’re going to help a bunch in that regard. Green leafy vegetables are tough to digest for the people that have digestive distress. And it takes time to get back.

Through my system, I let everyone know that their health status – their current health status is not forever. Your health is constantly on a sliding scale. Every single thing, every single choice, every meal, every day a stress or day of joy, it slides that up and down on a scale of zero to 100. That’s how my brain works. Say you fill up my long quiz – it’s on my website – and it tells you how healthy you are on a scale of zero to 100 based on symptoms alone. So you get 65%. That’s not terrible. It’s not great. But I want people to know that that’s where they’re at right now. And every positive choice that you make, whether it’s clean eating or going for a run or picking up a new hobby at the community center, anything you do to make you a positive shift in your health, you’re going to slide up that scale. You’re going to feel less symptoms. You’re going to feel better overall, which should be everyone’s goal. More energy, feeling better.

So that’s a great point that you make, there is light at the end of the tunnel. If you make more good choices than bad, you’re going to slide in a positive shift on your health status. And that is what I teach everyone. Is they are control of every choice they make. I can explain to them what happens when they make the wrong ones. And I can also explain to them the beauty of making the right ones, the right choices, the right nutritional changes.



01:44:43 Ashley James: So those are good for people who have the dysbiosis. What about people that just really want to eat healthy and want to just make sure that what they’re doing is optimal for longevity. Like you growing up, hardly ever get sick. Obviously, you never needed a flu shot growing up. You hardly ever got sick. You just went to bed when the sun went down and woke up with the sun. And your family made food and lived on the farm .And you knew exactly what was going on. You’re playing going into feed your cells.



01:45:18 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Sure. It starts with your mentality. Two, you have to have a goal, a plan. And that’s another great thought for anyone that’s trying to do nutritional changes is plan your food. Don’t wake up in the morning not knowing what you’re going to eat that day. Because that often pushes us into that frenzy and we make poor choices. So planning your meal plan for the week is pretty important. And also going to the grocery store and buying your food instead of just saying, “Oh, I’ll just grab something for lunch tomorrow at the restaurant.” Plan it out. It starts there.

So positive thought process is also vital for anyone’s health. I stay positive all day every day. I never let myself get down. And that fear mongering, like you spoke of, that is the medical systems way. They love to doom people into saying, “I’m diagnosed with this.” Or “I’m diagnosed with that.” You’re in control of any dysfunction in your body. You just got to figure out how to fuel it and get the right advice to go in that direction.



01:46:27 Ashley James: So can you paint the picture of what it looks like for the average American to transition off of the standard American diet and eat a diet that supports their body?



01:46:40 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Okay. So all the research that I’ve done – again the book is called, The Weight Is Over, because there’s a lot of people out there trying to lose weight. That’s the idea but they’re trying to do it in a healthy way too, I’m hoping. So the healthiest way to eat – and if you want to talk about the hormones involved, I can – but intermittent fasting is the healthiest

style of eating. It basically simulates. Back I talked about at the beginning of time, that hunter and gather style. Food is not always available. Food should not always be available for the human body to thrive. It needs to be hungry a long time. That’s where intermittent fasting comes in. There’s several different ways to do it. You can do a 16 hour fast or 18 hour fast or 12 hour fast or 24 hour fast. Figuring that out is on the individual. So when you are fasted, your body will release the human growth hormone, that is your anti-aging hormone. That is why people that eat less calories live longer. There’s studies that show that. It increases longevity.

So whole food intermittent fasting is how our human body is designed to eat. Not chemicals, intermittent fasting. A Snickers once a day is intermittent fasting. Whole Foods after a fast is how we’re designed to eat. I also feel that animal meats are supposed to be eating after exercise. So think about the hunter and gatherer, berries and roughage was always readily relatively available because you could gather a bunch. But a protein source in animal, you had to go hunt it, you had to find it, you had to gather. You had to, basically, run, catch it, shoot it, stab it with a bow, whatever you had to do. So it was vigorous exercise prior to that treat of an animal meat. So I like to only eat my meats after I exercise that day.



01:48:37 Ashley James: So you’re really only eating maybe one meal a day with meat. And you’re not necessarily eating meat every day.



01:48:44 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Eighty percent of our nutrition, in my opinion, should be plant based. Twenty percent animal based.



01:48:50 Ashley James: Right. A few people I’ve had on the show, like The China Study, which is like this big meta analysis. But Dr. Joel Fuhrman says if we can make 10% of our calories being animal products or less, then they see that that creates longevity and less disease.



01:49:16 Dr. Trent Mozingo: It’s true to some regards. But there’s also the Eskimo community that eats nothing but fish and meat. And they live very healthy, low inflammation lives as well.



01:49:27 Ashley James: But they don’t have longevity on their side though. They don’t live to be like 90 or 100 years old. So in terms of disease-free and longevity, because those are the – we could eat the Eskimo diet and will be really low in disease but we won’t live to be 100, basically.



01:49:45 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Okay. Fair. That’s a fair point with that study. But I mean, climate would probably play a role in there too. They’re also cold all the time. That would be difficult.q2

But something that also – I mean the temperatures you’re exposed to plays a pretty big role in your health too. And sunlight and vitamin D and things like that.



01:50:05 Ashley James: Sure. Absolutely. I love my Sunlight and Sauna.



01:50:09 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Absolutely. It’s cleansing. So whole food, 80% nutrition, in my opinion, is vegetable based. If you don’t exercise, you don’t need as much animal fat as well because your muscles don’t need to grow as much. That’s really what animals are for is to support muscle growth.



01:50:28 Ashley James: Interesting. And I’m not here to be controversial at all because I don’t believe in diet dogma. I want a healing diet for people. And what a whole food plant based, no animal diet is going to be really healing for some and not for others at that period in their life. So it’s like you just have to know what your body needs. But it’s a really interesting documentary. You may or may not have seen it, it’s new. It’s just on Netflix now called the Game Changers. The world’s strongest man who has been a strong man his whole life – his whole adult life, he gained 30 pounds of muscle after going vegan. And he has been vegan for 12 years. And he, actually, as a vegan broke the world record carrying 1200 pounds 33 feet. So it’s interesting that it breaks that misconception that we have to eat animal protein to build healthy muscles. But I respect the value in some of the amino acids you’re saying are readily available from those meats after exercise.



01:51:39 Dr. Trent Mozingo: And I discussed in the book, if you can live in a vegan life, you’re going to be low inflammation. But that also doesn’t mean – you can be a vegan and eat nothing but crackers. That’s not –



01:51:49 Ashley James: Or Oreos. Oreos are vegan. And vegan doesn’t mean healthy whole food plant based. No salt, sugar, or oil would definitely mean healthy. 



01:51:58 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yes. There’s a new documentary also called Fat, it contests that a little bit. It’s really good. It’s very informative on children with, I want to say – there’s a study that shows a high – keto diet would help with – I can’t remember the condition the child had but it cured them. So again, every person needs to find that balance for themselves. What makes them feel good? If you don’t feel good eating something, you probably shouldn’t. Pretty simple logic there.

I also studied under there – read the book of Dr. D’Adamo, the Dieting For Blood Type. Pretty interesting stuff. I’m a type A blood type, which means I should be relatively vegetarian based in it. I actually do thrive on a vegetarian based, very minimal animal fats. But I grew up on a beef farm. So that was hard for me to give up. That’s all I knew. So I can I can only eat steak once a week, usually. It’s the time I’ll eat an animal or – excuse me – a red meat.

But chicken, fish, I digest pretty well and it feels pretty good. And I feel pretty healthy with that. But yeah, it’s 80% plant based for me. But there’s some people that are different. And you got to figure that out.



01:53:19 Ashley James: So I was looking at our genetics. Genetics don’t – it doesn’t mean that we’re helpless because we have genetics. Because some people say, “Oh, the reason why [inaudible 01:53:30] is genetic.” Or the reason why you have – you know, eczema is genetic. It’s the gun but it doesn’t pull the trigger. Your body is going to respond to nutrient deficiency in a predictable way. You can look at if your entire family is vitamin D deficient or your entire family is calcium deficient or EFA deficient, your entire family kind of develops this set of diseases because that’s like the weak links in your genetics. Versus another family who develops a different set of illnesses with a deficiency or with different stressors. But it doesn’t pull the trigger. So that means we have to know our genetics so that we know how to prevent it by eating for health.

I had Mariel Hemingway on the show, who’s the granddaughter of Ernest Hemingway. And she’s had seven suicides in their family, including, of course, the famous American author, Ernest Hemingway. So growing up, it was her – from a very young age, it was her motivation to constantly look at how could she make her entire lifestyle be about physical health and mental health. So she journaled and went to therapy. Her genetics say that – and mostly everyone in her family has depression or suicide or bipolar or alcoholism or drug addiction. So addiction and mental illness are rampant in her genetics. But that doesn’t mean she’s going to have it. It means she knows that if she’s deficient or if she goes and eats the standard American diet, that that’s her genetic predisposition is to have those problems.

Whereas someone else’s with someone else’s genetic makeup, they might have developed type two diabetes. She would develop suicidal thoughts and depression with the same stressors on the body. So we have to understand that genetics don’t cause it. It doesn’t cause our problems. They are the blueprints. And just like some people are just more muscular than others. And some people can put on more muscle than others. Just genetically, the whole family’s really muscular. And all they have to do is just do light exercise and they’re really muscular versus this other family that’s maybe, better at endurance sports.

So it’s like we see the gifts in our genetics but also see that the gift is that you use your genetics as a motivation. Like, everyone in my family had a heart disease and so I’m going to use that as my motivation to prevent it through following this lifestyle. Especially reading your book, The Weight Is Over, which I think is brilliant. I think it’s beautiful. I think it’s actually really obtainable. Like you said, it was hard for you to really cut back on red meat or give it up entirely. A lot of people don’t want to give up their meat. And I was one of those people. My husband went vegan overnight. I had a guest on the show and she said a few key things and he said, “I am never eating meat again.” And he was the guy who ate nothing but meat. To get him to eat a vegetable was ridiculously hard. And then he just overnight said, “You know what? I just heard enough. I’m never eating meat again.” And he loves it. He loves not eating meat. He loves legumes and beans and nuts and seeds and vegetables and fruit. And he thrives on it. And he’s so happy. He’s happier. He’s calmer in his own body. He’s just a happier person. You just notice he’s happier.

I like that you said we really need to be science based because we can all be on, like, the cheese cracker diet or the coffee and cigarette diet. And it’s like you know what? Feeling good – there’s two kinds of feel goods You said we should always feel good on our diet. You know what? You can feel really good on a McDonald’s diet. You can feel really good in the moment. You can be jacked up on sugar. Because it’s fun. It’s fun to eat that way in the moment. You can feel good but do you feel good the next day? Do you feel good waking up in the morning? Do you feel good going to bed at night?

So I would say that, does your diet make you feel good even three days after eating that food? And instead of the feel good in the moment, it’s like, do you feel good all the time? And do you have less inflammation and better digestion? Is your health improving? If your diet is improving and building upon your health, then good. But I love that you said, have 80% of your diet be plant based because we need to get the fiber and vitamins and minerals. We just can’t get that from eating the standard American diet.



01:59:03 Dr. Trent Mozingo: No. Nothing processed is going to have it. And if it has any vitamins, it’s been synthesized and put back into the – synthetic vitamins are just pumping into the junk food. So it doesn’t really count anyway. Vitamins from plants, fruits, and vegetables it runs the entire human body. You have to have them.



01:59:27 Ashley James: What did you eat for breakfast this morning?



01:59:30 Dr. Trent Mozingo: I usually do a smoothie in the morning. Spinach, typically carrots, some strawberries. I use a protein powder from a company that I use a standard process. It’s pretty clean protein powder. And I blend that up with water. It’s not very delicious.



01:59:48 Ashley James: It’s not?



01:59:51 Dr. Trent Mozingo: No. No. But I can eat anything. So it’s not really too big of a deal for me. Once you start getting to that eat for health – but then there’s also days when if you think that you have to eat super healthy all the time, it will make you crazy. So there’s a cheat day every once in a while too. But I eat very healthy 90% of my time.



02:00:09 Ashley James: If you could figure out how to make your cheat meals actually healthy, like I’m – oh man. I have made some really cool desserts. Sweet potatoes, bake some sweet potatoes and then put them in a food processor with raw cacao powder. And if you need, you can add some dates or you can add some date syrup or just a little stevia. But oftentimes the sweet potatoes are sweet enough. And it’s like chocolate. It’s a chocolate pudding and my four year old loves it. And I’m just laughing because I’m feeding them healthy food.

And then another one is just making – you can take avocado and blend it with the raw cacao powder. And that makes a delicious mousse. And then the third, I’m, of course, just going on basically it’s like making mousse with chocolate. But that’s my thing. That’s what satisfies me.

You can also do it with tofu. You can take silken tofu and blend it with raw cacao powder and some stevia or some maple syrup, if you want. If you’re okay with that with a little bit of sugar. Oh my gosh, the kids love it. It tastes amazing. So yeah, there’s things that you can do and you can take sweet potato and black beans and mix them with stevia or maple syrup or whatever sweetener. I prefer stevia. You can do dates. Mix it with some raw cacao powder and bake it and it becomes like brownies.



02:01:38 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yeah. I’m not very adventurous in my food. I stick a bunch of vegetables on a plate and I put some fruit on top of it to make it a little bit better and I eat it. I am the most boring cook in the world.


02:01:52 Ashley James: I love getting creative in the kitchen. But I love to fake cheat. So it’s still healthy food. I still feel good the next day. But once in a while, I get that feeling like I cheated. But it’s not cheating at all. My friend, Naomi, makes the most amazing – she makes a cashew cream and then we dip fruit into it or vegetables into it and it tastes like it’s made from heavy whipping cream but it’s made from cashews and it’s amazing. Oh yeah, so good. And the kids love it. And then they’re like eating more fruit. Not like you need to get the kids to eat fruit. But it is really awesome.

So yeah, there’s some fun ways to still be whole food plant based or still be – eat a whole foods diet. That is fun. So that’s the thing. That’s what I love to look for is, how can I make this enjoyable for the family? But you’re right, most of the time I eat – like my plate is just a bunch of vegetables and I’m happy with that. But once in a while your brain just really wants to break. When we go to the movies, I always pack food to go into the movies because it smells so good at the movie theater. You want to just have their canola oil, GMO canola oil covered popcorn. And then you’re eating glyphosate. And then the next day, I can feel it. I can feel the inflammation from all the junk food eating at the movies. So we pack in. I’ve never had a problem, by the way. I never ever had a problem bringing my own food into the movie theater and my own beverages. I just bring a big thing of water.

But we bake some chickpeas. So you’ve cooked them. They’re already cooked. And then you bake them with seasoning, like Mexican seasoning or whatever. And so they’re dry, but you pop them in your mouth like their popcorn. And it’s so much fun. It’s so easy. And then I usually do cut up vegetables and some kind of hummus or just a bunch of cut up vegetables. You can cut up zucchini, so that’s carrot –  so it’s like crackers. And then you can make little sandwiches, like zucchini sandwiches like the little cracker sandwiches with some hummus.  So there’s like fun things that you can do that you still feel like you’re getting snack food but it’s whole foods. And the best thing is the next day when you wake up in the morning, you jump out of bed and you feel like every cell in your body is singing. You just feel like you’re on top of the world because you just nourished every cell in your body. And instead of creating inflammation and disease.



02:04:18 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yeah. That’s a powerful thing. It really is.



02:04:23 Ashley James: Since coming out with your book, and obviously, you’ve had your clients read it, and you’re promoting it, and you’re getting great feedback. Can you share some stories of success of people that have read your book and implemented your program?



02:04:38 Dr. Trent Mozingo: For me, I track for patients. I actually make patients track everything on their own. Giving themselves the responsibility back. I want them to understand what their weight which way it’s moving, how many bowel movements they’re having a day, what are the consistency of their bowel movements. And those that are really needing a lot of help, I make them check their blood sugar every day. I think the funniest thing to fix is probably IBS.



02:05:05 Ashley James: Yeah. No kidding. Because they’re really suffering.



02:05:08 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Everyday those patients are in distress. They don’t know when it’s going to come. But they know they better have a restroom very close. And to hear them tell me, “I no longer have to stress. I know in the mornings I wake up, I’m going to have a nice healthy bowel movement.” That, in my opinion, is a life changer for these patients. Changing someone’s blood sugar is important, health wise. But it doesn’t change. They’re just overall daily life, like removing that digestive hysteria. And it goes away pretty quick. Like you said, if you organize your food and you get your body rejuvenated and your digestive system healed, it works pretty quick. And helping people lose weight, it’s always fun. But that real stress relief is what I like.



02:06:02  Ashley James: I love it. I love it. Do you have any homework you like to give the listeners today?



02:06:08 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Homework? That’s good. I think I would tell a patient or a person or a listener – I don’t know if they’re doing it yet – but meal planning is the most important thing. And it sounds like if you have recipes on your Facebook to go there and find them because they sound delicious. And plan to put some of those in there. But I think that the most important homework is try to do as much research about what food does, what vitamins are, where they come from, and how they integrate and interact inside your body is pretty important as far as learning how to fix yourself is first learning how your body works. And that education is valuable for family, for your kids, for everyone.


02:07:02 Ashley James: Some people aren’t motivated to themselves but they’ll do it for their kids.



02:07:07 Dr. Trent Mozingo:  And they should.



02:07:08 Ashley James: Our kids are not going to do it. We say they’re going to do what we do. We have to be the example of health for them. And for moms, we often will put our health last. We’ll shovel food in our mouth in between like standing up by the sink. In between feeding one kid and feeding another and getting them better ready for bed. It’s just the standing over the sink shoveling food into our mouth is not dinner. And it’s not a meal. And it’s not even a snack. You’re not even digesting and absorbing that food because you’re still in stress mode. We need to carve out time for ourselves. It is that story of putting the oxygen mask on ourselves first. It is not self-indulgent. It is necessary. If you love –  of course you love your children. But if you want to be here long term because raising children and helping your family is a marathon, not a sprint, then we need to do the self-care everyday. We need to do self-care.

And it’s not self-indulgent, it’s not egotistical. It is needed. That taking care of you is taking care of your family. Because if you’re down for the count, no one’s getting fed. And I saw that in my mom, she ran herself ragged and she was bedridden and sick with the flu, because she wouldn’t even take care of herself. And then she got Candida because her doctor put her on months and months of antibiotics because she wasn’t willing to just sit down and relax. And that’s what led us to –  when I was six – my mom took a Naturopath that actually was Dr. D’Adamo, the writer Your Blood Type Diet. He was my Naturopath when I was six. And I had this entire shift where he said, “You’re O blood type, you’re allergic to wheat, yeast, milk, and sugar. Get it out of your life.” And so we went home and my mom threw it all out. And I grew up on soy milk. And from the age between ages six and 13, I had zero illness, I had full health and vitality. And then I rebelled. I was 13. I was pissed off at the world and my parents. And I ate all the Halloween candy. And I went to a new school with the cafeteria and I just started eating all the cafeteria food. And all it took was one meal a day, that lunch, eating that crappy, crappy cafeteria food.

I gave myself disease b the time I was to 20. Basically, I ate healthy breakfast at home. I ate healthy dinner. But that lunch every day, I gave myself lifestyle and diet – diseases caused by diet. But then I didn’t have the wherewithal. My brain was full of junk and brain fog. And it took me my entire 20s of suffering to turn it around. So by the time I was 26 or – sorry – 28 is when I went – I had that wake up call and started to shop in the perimeter of the grocery store. And now I’m almost 40. So I had that sort of like ill health in my early years. Then many years of health following exactly what you teach. And then I went back to eating the way everyone else eats but only one third of the time. So we can’t just eat a healthy breakfast and a healthy dinner and go out to McDonald’s. I always pick on McDonald’s. But go out to some restaurant one meal a day and think we’re building our body healthfully. It has to be every meal to be able to build health.



02:10:46 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Stay focused, that’s for sure. Food and mentality too. That’s also just important having a positive outlook, positive thoughts, positive people around you with the same ideas and plans.



02:11:00 Ashley James: Brilliant. Beautiful. I know we’ve covered so much. Is there anything left unsaid? Anything you want to make sure that you let the listener know to wrap up today’s interview?



02:11:14 Dr. Trent Mozingo: I think just make sure they know they’re in control of their health. Not their doctor. Not their personal trainer. No one. It’s on them to really take control.



02:11:23 Ashley James: Awesome. So the listeners who get your book, of course, the links are going to be in the show notes of today’s podcast at The Weight Is Over book by Dr. Dr. Trent Mozingo. I love your last name. We’re all going to remember that name. Mozingo. Now, your website is That website and the link to your book is going to be in the show notes for today’s podcast. It has been such a pleasure having you on the show today. And you’re welcome back. I bet we could talk about a few more fun topics.



02:11:54 Dr. Trent Mozingo: I think we could talk forever it sounds like. That’s great.



02:11:57 Ashley James: That would be wonderful. I’d love to have you back. Thank you so much. It has been such a pleasure having you on the show today.



02:12:03 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here.



02:12:05 Outro: Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition? And how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity? Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business, support people in their success? Do you love helping people?

You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program. And it really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over 100 dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition. But from a standpoint of how we can help people to shift their life and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health.

I definitely recommend that you check them out. You can Google Institute for Integrative Nutrition or IIN and give them a call. Or you can go to and you can receive a free module of their training. So check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in. Be sure to mention my name, Ashley James, and the Learn True Health Podcast because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program. And I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information.

We need more health coaches. In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctors offices. You can work in hospitals. You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help your local schools shift their programs to help children to be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success in their health goals.

There’s so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach. So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. Mention my name. Get the best deal. Give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon.  The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month. So you’re going to want to call them now and check it out. And if you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.

Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price? For high quality supplements and to talk to someone about what supplements are best for you, go to and one of our fantastic true health coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are the highest quality and the best price. That’s That’s Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program.


Get Connected With Dr. Trent Mozingo!


Facebook – New Start Health Center

Facebook – Dr. Trent Mozingo



Book by Dr. Trent Mozingo

The Weight Is Over


Recommended Reading by Dr. Trent Mozingo

Start With Why by Simon Sinek


Oct 20, 2019

The Homework:

1) Check out meditation videos by Forrest Knutson on YouTube:

2) The Magnesium Soak! Visit and use coupon code LTH for our listener discount.

3) Check out Ashley's Free Your Anxiety Course!

Get Eliot's books and listen to his podcasts here:


Inner Power


  • You’re not alone. Community plays an important role in helping people with anxiety or depression to get better. Nobody ever has to be alone.
  • You’re not a victim of your circumstances. You can’t control your circumstances. You don’t have control over others.
  • It’s okay to fail. We learn the best through failing. Nobody learns from success.
  • Give even through the worst times, it’s when you have to give the most because what comes back to you is going to be so much better than what you give.
  • Don’t die for your beliefs. You have to be willing to be wrong. Be willing to change your mind because we keep on learning.


In this episode, Eliot Marshall shares with us ways on how he deals with his anxiety. He tells us martial arts has helped him to stay calm in the very worst moments of his life and how teaching martial arts while having anxiety saved his life by giving the most of what he could for his students.


[0:00] Intro: Hello true health seeker and welcome to another episode of Learn True Health podcast.

Today we have a wonderful guest. You are going to love Eliot Marshall. He’s such a genuine soul with a beautiful voice and I just love his heart. I know you will love his stories and his passion and compassion today listening to this wonderful interview. Interestingly enough, he asked me, I asked him to give us some homework and he asked me for some homework. So, I want to make sure that you know about these three resources that I shared with him.

One is for mediation, I know it’s a really big buzzword and we can just break it down and make it really simple. So many people find that meditation is helpful to them. So if you want to experience the benefits of meditation but you don’t know where to start, I recommend a free resource. Someone I’ve had on the show before who’s actually a really close friend of mine, his name is Forrest Knutson. You can find him on YouTube by searching Forrest Knutson. His website is thatyogiguy. He teaches. He’s made so many great videos and he teaches how to meditate in a very easy way. He utilizes neurofeedback and neuroscience. So he’s all about the science around what happens to the brain when we quiet the mind and also what happens to the nervous system taking us out of the stress response, which is very helpful if we’re looking to decrease the physical effects of anxiety and also decrease anxiety itself. So I recommend that as a resource.

The next thing I really recommend for anyone who’s experiencing problems with sleep or problems with anxiety or panic attacks is soaking in magnesium. If you’re a first-time listener, I have several interviews about this talking about the science behind magnesium. You can go to my website, type in magnesium and listen to my episodes about the magnesium soak. We actually absorb grams of magnesium when we do this soak. It is through and we were given a coupon code LTH, as in Learn True Health, to receive the listener discount. So go to, type in the coupon code LTH and get the jug of magnesium soak. Listen to the episode first so you understand all the benefits and how to soak in it. Our body actually absorbs grams of this magnesium and people, we have hundreds of listeners shared that they have better sleep, significantly less anxiety and that they have a greater sense of well-being. It really does make a difference especially when we’re magnesium deficient.

The third I recommend, I teach an entire course, it’s an entire month-long course, on eliminating anxiety and all the neurolinguistic programming tools that will allow you and empower you to no longer have anxiety. You can go to my website and in the menu click on in the Anxiety there. You’ll see more information about it. I really recommend my course for anyone who wants to significantly reduce stress, anxiety, panic attacks, worry or if you just are really interested in personal growth and you want more tools on your tool belt. It is a fantastic course. I make it affordable for everyone to be able to learn these tools in such a way that it will empower them.

So those are my three recommendations for people who want to decrease stress and anxiety in their life. Check those out. Enjoy today’s show. Thank you so much for being a listener. Thank you for sharing this episode with those you care about especially those who you know have some issues with anxiety, with worry, with depression. We can get together as a community and support each other. That’s what we need to do. No man is an island. We need to get together and support each other and do that by sharing episodes that’ll help each other and sharing what has helped us. Letting our friends and family know that we’re struggling too and we’re there for them. The more that we put down our guard and be vulnerable with each other and we share with each other that we care for one another, the more we can make a difference in this world. Recently, data from the CDC that was published shows that the suicide rate for generation z, this is the generation between the ages of 10 and 24 years old, has increased by 56% percent between the years 2007 and 2017. Suicide is now the second leading cause of death for generation z. This is a major epidemic. We need to do something right now. The only way we can make differences as individuals. So as individuals, all of us together can support each other by sharing this episode with those we care about and using the tools that Eliot teaches today. Just being there for each other, just reaching out to those we love and letting them know that we’re a should that they have and letting them know that we want to hear them and listen to them and that they’re heard. Also letting them know that we’re struggling too. Just that amount of communication could save someone’s life. So that’s why I’m so honored to be able to publish this episode today because my hope is that we can spread this message and turn this ripple into a tidal wave and help as many people as possible to learn true health.

Welcome to the Learn true health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is episode 387.


[06:13] Ashley James: I’m so excited for today’s guest. We have with us Eliot Marshall who has an amazing story. What I love is he’s here to teach us how to find our power. As I’ve said on the show before health, a lot of times we look at physical health but health is not always just physical. Our mental and our emotional body and our energetic body all play a role in creating our physical health. We need to be able to create that inner power, that inner motivation, that inner strength, we need to cultivate that so that we can go out and do the things that support our life, our health physically but also our joy in our life. Eliot, it’s such a pleasure to have you here today.


[06:55] Eliot Marshall: Thanks, Ashley. Thanks for having me on. I could not agree with what you said more.


[07:00] Ashley James: Absolutely. Now your website is Of course links to everything you do, it’s going to be in the show notes of today’s podcast Eliot, you’ve got two podcasts that you do. You wrote a book. You own six gyms. You’re a professional fighter. It’s just like the list goes on and on and on.


[07:23] Eliot Marshall: I had a massive breakdown four years ago. I had a massive, what I like to call spiritual mental breakdown/spiritual awakening. I wasn’t paying attention to those things that were so important.


[07:36] Ashley James: We’re definitely going to dive in to your story. It sounds like you found your power though.


[07:41] Eliot Marshall: Yes. You know, I’m still gathering it. I don’t believe in ever reaching the top of the mountain.


[07:49] Ashley James: We’re never done, right?


[07:50] Eliot Marshall: We’re never done. The day I stop grinding is the day that they put the dirt on me. That grind might change. I don’t know what it’s going to look like that whenever –


[08:01] Ashley James: Yes. You get to the pearly gates and Jesus is like, “Alright, put you to work.”


[08:09] Eliot Marshall: Whoever it is up there, you know. Whatever it is. I’m never too concerned. I used to be super concerned with it. Now, I’m not concerned with it at all, I believe that we’re experiencing both heaven and hell while we are alive. So, I’m not sure what happens to me after I die. I guess I don’t even really care. I do care about what I do while I’m here on this earth.


[08:39] Ashley James: What a beautiful dichotomy to hold in your mind the idea that we’re going through heaven and hell at the same time. That we can learn and grow and utilize both experiences or both perspectives to help propel us forward and help others as well. I think we find really true joy when we reach out and help others. Our ego drops away. We’re in the now. We’re totally in that moment. You love helping people too. That’s why my podcast is Learn True Health. It’s not like achieve true health and then you’re done. It’s Learn True Health and keep learning and keep learning and keep learning. So, we’re going to learn from you today, Eliot. I’d love for you to start by sharing your story. What happened in your life that lead you to be such a wise soul?


[09:26] Eliot Marshall: I’ll start with I was born to an African-American dad who grew up very, very poor and White-Jewish mother whose parents, my grandparents, survived the concentration camps. So, I had a very interesting upbringing. We lived in this really small town. You know those towns where like they know when the kid’s born that he’s going to be the quarterback of a high school football team and a homecoming king? Like everybody knows that. That’s my town. I didn’t fit in very well. Looking back on it, it worked out great for me. In it, it sucked. So then, I would say grandparents, my mom’s parents had a huge, they had a very huge influence on my life. I saw them three times a week. There was a common thing. That common thing was Hitler will be coming again. I didn’t know that it was difficult. I didn’t know the effects that all of that had on me. It obviously played a role.


[10:45] Ashley James: Did you feel persecuted or ostracized for?


[10:49] Eliot Marshall: Yes. I had no friends. I had two friends my whole growing up, maybe three. That was pretty much the extent of it.


[10:58] Ashley James: That lack of acceptance must have really played into the belief that Hitler was coming back for you as a child growing up. That fear, you didn’t feel accepted by your community. If you’re community is already rejecting you then that fear that the holocaust is going to happen again was really real for you, really palpable.


[11:15] Eliot Marshall: Yes. There whole life was set for it to happen again. When they died, my sister lives in that currently, when my grandmother died at the time we went downstairs, it was 2000 and there was sugar and flour and stuff from 1979. We were ready. We were definitely ready.


[11:42] Ashley James: My aunt was a prepper back in the 70s. Until the day she passed away, she did the same thing. She filled her entire basement with canned goods. I understand that. I didn’t understand at the time but then I started to get. That’s a reality.


[12:02] Eliot Marshall: It’s a reality. Look man. We stole. I remember crawling in farms, because I lived in South Jersey where there’s a lot of farms, at night and going to get cucumbers. We didn’t need to steal. There was no necessity for us to steal. That’s just how they survived, my grandparents, right. Like okay, well let’s go. We didn’t steal massive things. We stole 10 cucumbers, which I’m not condoning it. I’m not saying that this was right or anything like that but that was the mentality. That was the concentration camp mentality. You have to survive. For me, I think it’s kind of what triggered my anxiety because I was always like, “Well man, what am I surviving from? It seems pretty good. I’m never hungry. Why should we be scared?” It triggered this from my life, like this. Like what’s coming down the pipe. Then it came a couple of times as an older. The first time I was 19 years old. It was pretty bad. The second time I was 21 and it was bad.


[13:22] Ashley James: When you say it was bad, were these events or were these panic attacks?


[13:26] Eliot Marshall: Yes. Acute anxiety episodes that lasted for about six to nine months. Then, up until this point you’ll never know what’s coming. Up until this point, my worst one was in 2016. It was, that was my dance with the devil. That was my dance with the devil.


[13:51] Ashley James: Were they provoked like something happened that triggered it or just out of nowhere, you’re like sitting at home eating dinner and then boom?


[13:58] Eliot Marshall: This last one, in 2016, I just got back from 2 weeks in Maui and my life was perfect. My businesses, I had two at the time, they were successful. I had a great wife. I had a great house. I had two great kids. I’m by no means like a gazillionaire but I didn’t, like if I want something I could do it. We’re not talking like Bugattis and private jets, right. We’re talking like normal everyday people stuff. If I wanted to go out to a nice dinner I wouldn’t even think about like what to save. I’ve none of that going on, nothing. My kids are healthy, my wife’s healthy, everything’s perfect. Literally two weeks in Hawaii, comeback jetlagged and that’s what did it. Just a little jetlag and then I didn’t sleep for five days. Maybe let’s just say somewhere between four and eight hours of sleep in five days.


[14:55] Ashley James: Sounds like it’s related to your stress response.


[14:57] Eliot Marshall: Yes. Probably. I mean at this time when I go back and look at it, I was consumed with looking at the numbers at work. How many members we had. I was consumed.


[15:15] Ashley James: You have a degree in math, right?


[15:17] Eliot Marshall: Yes. I have a degree in math but don’t ask me any hard questions coz I got punched in the head for a living for 10 years. So that’s always part of it, right? I’m like, “Man, is this the CTE?” because I couldn’t tell you how many, I mean concussion every day. I got punched in the head twice a week every week from 2005 until 2011. I’m not talking about punching the head by a five-year-old. I’m talking about punch in the head by 250-260 pound man.


[15:53] Ashley James: Your neurological wiring growing up was this fear that the third world war is about to happen, the holocaust is about to happen again. Then you have like a million concussions. So there might be some little bit of brain injury that you’re healing from.


[16:16] Eliot Marshall: You know, my brain looks good on MRI. Like obviously I’m not stupid. So I was always making sure if things like that. I had a brain MRI, I don’t know two years ago, my brain looks good. The real problems are what you can’t see on an MRI.



[16:31] Ashley James: Right, because that’s structural. The structure of the brain isn’t really how the brain works.


[16:36] Eliot Marshall: Like Aaron Hernandez, when he died it was the worst case of CTE that they’d ever seen. A lot of people think the guy’s a terrible human being but I mean how much can we blame him?


[16:50] Ashley James: Right. It’s the same for people who have a mental health condition. You can’t hold something against someone who’s schizophrenic or bipolar. They’re going through something. So, we have to take that into account and hold empathy and forgiveness. So what happened then? So after your last biggest in 2016, your biggest breakdown, how did you recover?


[17:22] Eliot Marshall: I realized that the way out was in.


[17:26] Ashley: I love that.


[17:27] Eliot Marshall: I’m going to try my very best not to sound super conceited here. For my schools, I’m the one that’s made it the farthest. I’ve won almost everything else there is to win. I made it to the UFC, which is like the crown jewel. If there’s a crown jewel for martial arts it’s did you fight in the UFC? I was not a champion but that’s like a marker that most people, almost no one gets to have especially 10 years ago. I’ve competed in everything. I’ve won. So people are like looking at me like, “Okay. That’s the mark.” I was just real honest with people. I was like, “Look, yeah I might be your mark but don’t worry, I struggle too just like you guys. So I’m going to be okay. I have great friends that help me. I have all of the tools necessary to get this done. I just want all of you to know,” and I said this in front of the class one day. I like pulled everyone in right in the middle of my hell. I said, “I want all of you to know that if this is for you too, if this is what’s going on, you’re not alone. You’re not alone. We’ll all get through this together because that’s what we do as a community. We lean on people and we’re strong for ourselves and for others as well.”


[18:59] Ashley James: Did anyone come forward and say-?


[19:02] Eliot Marshall: Yes, a bunch. I’m like a professional therapist now, Ashley.


[19:09] Ashley James: I love that.


[19:11] Eliot Marshall: That’s what got me to write my book and start this podcast that I have. My original podcast called the Gospel of Fire. The book is by the same title. So yes, that’s what got me to do all of it was my, I won’t even say my path to overcoming because I don’t believe in overcoming. I just believe in the moment, right now because this is all we’ve got.


[19:37] Ashley James: You know if more people were to stand up and say to their friends or their community, “I’m going through depression and I want to let you know. Let’s get through this together. If anyone else is going through depression, let’s talk about it or suicidal thoughts or anxiety or fear. If we were to instead of all be locked away in our houses, you know if you look at neighborhoods today –


[20:05] Eliot Marshall: On our cellphones.


[20:05] Ashley James: Right, we’re all locked away on our cellphones.


[20:08] Eliot Marshall: In our houses on our cellphones.


[20:10] Ashley James: Right, right. We’re so isolated. We’ve really created a society in the last generation that’s very isolated. The best thing for mental health is to do it as a community. I did this really amazing interview with this guy who travel around the world to study these techniques that are actually working at helping end addiction and helping end like mental health issues like depression and people who –


[20:44] Eliot Marshall: What’s his name?


[20:47] Ashley James: I will remember.


[20:49] Eliot Marshall: Is it Johann Hari?


[20:50] Ashley James: Yes.


[20:53] Eliot Marshall: I’m trying to get him on my podcast because he wrote those two books are amazing.


[20:57] Ashley James: His books are amazing. Yes, I had Johann on. It’s funny because he was like –


[21:01] Eliot Marshall: So his book the one Lost Connections and that’s about anxiety and depression, right? The other –


[21:07] Ashley James: I had him on the show right as his second book came out. So we talked about both of them.


[21:10] Eliot Marshall: That was Lost Connections.


[21:10] Ashley James: Right, we talked about both of them.


[21:12] Eliot Marshall: I hit him up. He’s writing a third book right now. He’s like, “Give me six months and I’ll do it.”


[21:19] Ashley James: Sweet. Well, he’s a great guest. I’ll vouch for you.


[21:23] Eliot Marshall: Yes. I love his books.


[21:25] Ashley James: He shares his stories.


[21:29] Eliot Marshall: Chasing the Scream because that was the one about addiction. So, Chasing the Scream is about addiction and then Lost Connection was the one about anxiety and depression. My favorite part of that book was the apple. Did you read the book, Lost Connections, did you read it?


[21:44] Ashley James: No. I did the interview.


[21:47] Eliot Marshall: He tells this story where he’s in, I don’t know, Indonesia or somewhere. He gets sick. He eats this apple and he gets sick like really, really sick. They didn’t know that it was the apple yet. So, he’s telling the story and he’s vomiting everywhere. He barely stayed alive. He’s finally in the hospital. He’s like, “Can you please just give me something for this?” They’re like, “No, we can’t because we don’t know what’s wrong yet. We need your nausea so we can help you.” Sometimes, we need our anxiety. I need my anxiety so that it can help me. It can point me in the direction that I need to go to find my power.


[22:29] Ashley James: Yes, because if you keep going down a path, like focusing on what you don’t want to have happen in the future, the anxiety gets worse and worse and worse. So like, okay I’m going down the wrong path. Let me start going down the right path.


[22:40] Eliot Marshall: Or you could drink it away, right?


[22:43] Ashley James: Sorry?


[22:43] Eliot Marshall: We can drink it away with alcohol. We can drug use it away with a whole lot of things, right. Then all we know, I think we both know that what happens is it comes back and it just keeps coming back a little worse and a little worse and a little worse.


[22:59] Ashley James: Yeah. He shared some stories about people who, when they got together as a community to support each other that their depression went down significantly. That even people who were, you know contemplating suicide stop contemplating suicide. The idea that bringing together community to support each other does so much for mental health. Things just simple like volunteering. Doesn’t have to be, it could be any kind of volunteering. It could be any kind of volunteering like volunteering at a cat shelter or a dog shelter or volunteering in a soup kitchen or whatever kind of volunteering. The fact that you, they say that the number one thing if you’re depressed, go volunteer. Be part of a community. People start to care about each other and help each other. That they just show unanimously people have less depression and less suicide. Less of being trapped inside yourself when you do things like get into community and volunteer.


[23:59] Eliot Marshall: That was my whole goal of my book. First one. So I was introduced to this lady. Her name is Erin Weed, she’s amazing. She does public speaking. I thought I was going to do the whole public speaking route. She does this thing called the Dig. She finds one word that describes you. My one word is power. So that’s why Find Your Power. But what we got to, she was like, “Man, I really don’t know if the speaking route is your way yet because 1) you curse a lot. But I think you’re amazing. And your people.” I’ve been pretty good so far. What are we, 20 minute, 30 minutes in and I haven’t done it.


[24:40] Ashley James: You’re doing a really good job. You caught yourself. There is an s word. You almost said it. I was like, smooth.


[24:48] Eliot Marshall: Yes. My wife says this about me, I’m like a fungus. I just grow on people. So, that’s why she was like, “Look, you need to start a podcast so people could get to know you. You need to write this book.” The company, she gave me this company. Man, they charge $25,000. $25,000 to write this book. I’m sitting there thinking. I’m like damn it, $25,000, that’s a lot of cash. How do you get an ROI in $25,000 for a book? Because I got to split with Amazon and this and that, right? I’m not Johann Hari. I’m not a New York Times bestseller already and all this stuff. Then I had to rethink it. I had a moment where I was like, man, what if I write just the most amazing book. What will make it so amazing is that one person will contact me and say that I saved their life. If that happen, if one person just hit me up on I I’d have Instagram or Twitter, wherever and said, “Yo, dude. I was getting ready to check it out and you made me not.” I was like, damn, I’d have to write another one then because a life is for sure worth $25,000.


[26:02] Ashley James: So did you do it with them? Did you spend $25,000?


[26:04] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. I did it. My ROI is ridiculous. Because I had gotten more than one. My ROI has been ridiculous.


[26:14] Ashley James: So you really helped save people with your book.


[26:17] Eliot Marshall: Yeah and like the whole, we found this why in the academies that I own, you know. We had this, it’s just nobody ever has to be alone. I know I teach martial arts. I teach this violent thing. I have UFC fighters. We’re trying to beat each other up. That’s what the goal of the whole thing is on the outside, on the outside. But man, what it really teaches you, what Brazilian jiu-jitsu really[y teaches you. Do you know anything about it?


[26:46] Ashley James: I studied martial arts when I was a teenager and the early 20s.


[26:51] Eliot Marshall: Okay. So, what it does, so Brazilian jiu-jitsu is a grappling art where we submit each other with joint locks. The whole position is controlled. Like a joint manipulation of a major joint like your knee or your elbow and chokes, strangulations. We get to practice at full speed because when you lock my arm out straight I can be like, “Oh man, that thing’s not going to go any straighter.” So I tap. Right? So I’m trusting you with my life and you’re doing the same for me. The choke is the same. The better you get, you get to learn how to like be in this submission holds and kind of deal with like, “So, I’m getting choked and I feel this. This is very uncomfortable but I just have to stay really calm. Because I know that freaking out is not going to get me out. So the calmer I stay right now the better I’ll be able to process how to deal with this arm around my neck. It’s not all the way locked in. Like I could still breathe and blood is still flowing through my brain. I’m okay.” How do I stay okay? But those moments. That’s really hard. It’s super hard. It takes a long time how to stay calm in that moment of being strangled. That’s what martial arts and specifically Brazilian jiu-jitsu is teaching us in my opinion is it teaches us how to stay calm in the very, very worst moments that our life is going to bring on us.


[28:19] Ashley James: Well, because your body perceives a choke hold as a threat. It wants to go into fight or flight to try to save your life. But being in fight or flight shuns the blood away from logic centers of your brain. So now you’re not, hopefully have some kind of muscle going but you really don’t have clarity of mind when you’re in fight or flight.


[28:42] Eliot Marshall: Well, everyone goes into fight or flight in the beginning. If you came into a jiu-jitsu class today, I put my arm around your neck and you’re going to be like, “Oh, God.” You’re going to freak out. Everyone just goes bananas for the first couple of years when they’re getting choked. Then they tap. You go and you start again. That’s the beauty of it though is it goes through like this human lifecycle. Like you’re born, you get to live and fight. That’s the fight and then man you die. You get choked out. Then you get to live again. Then you get to be reborn. You get to try it again. You get to try a little different this time. Like, “Okay, this time I’m going to do this.” You can see whether it works or it doesn’t work. But it’s really safe because you put your partner’s taking care of you. Like I said, his life is in your hands and your life is in hers. So, it doesn’t matter. You build this insane trust with somebody else because you have to do this really hard thing, beating each other up. But you have to do it safely. Because most of my students are not trying to be champions. We have schools littered with somebody who goes to work all day and then has two and a half kids and a white picket fence, right? Like the average American. That’s who we teach. Yeah, we have phenomenal champions as well, but who we teach is, like who we really teach, is you, Ashley. Are you married?


[30:11] Ashley James: Yes.


[30:12] Eliot Marshall: And your husband and your kids. That’s who we teach. You have zero goals of being champion. But for some reason, you keep walking in. You keep doing this really weird thing like Fight Club.


[30:24] Ashley James: You create a community. I loved my martial art family. It was so cool. We’d go out to dinner together after most workouts and hang out and huge amount of bonding. You really, really start to care for these people because you’re right. You’re putting your life in their hands. They’re putting their life in yours. You develop trust really quickly. There’s a great amount of respect. Did you start to notice, like when you dived into this community, that you were getting emotional healing from being part of a community that was so accepting of you and helped you to drop your guard?


[31:08] Eliot Marshall: So, I didn’t notice it until later. You know, I really didn’t notice it until one of my students passed away to be honest with you. He passed away. It was at the end of my stint, of my acute nine months. Let’s say, it was much greater. It was down the road. I didn’t cry yet. I hadn’t cried. I was sad but I didn’t cry. He was poor, his very poor. Their family was poor. They couldn’t afford to like give him a service or anything. So we brought them out to Colorado, because they weren’t from here. We, at the school, we just paid for everything, right. Like plane tickets, we just took care of it. So, I had to say something. I had to give a eulogy. I absolutely lost it standing up there. I was baffling, crying, sobbing buffoon. What I realized was that man, over the last two years that my students saved my life. Because I was like, “Come on man, you got to show up to teach your class. You got to show up. When you go teach that class, it’s got to be the best class possible.” Like every class has to be amazing. That was my goal through the day. That’s how I got through the day. Then just more people showed up for me, more people showed up for me. I was trying to give the most that I could. Just by them coming, they gave me the greatest gift that they could ever give me. So, they saved my life. I didn’t really realize it until like that moment, standing up there. I was sobbing. His mom was there, my students, a bunch of my students. I was a mess. I was a mess. But that’s when I realized that all we have to do is give. If we just give, even in the worst times, even in the hardest times, that’s when you got to give the most. Just give. Give to other people. What comes back to you is going to be so stupidly much better. You can’t, I don’t even know how to explain it. Like I don’t even know how to explain it.


[33:42] Ashley James: Well, you showed up for them. You kept putting, you kept getting up every day, getting out of bed, putting on your clothes. That was your motivation to keep going, right? In the hard times, was making sure that you brought your everything to the lessons that you’re teaching them. But if you didn’t have your students there for you, you weren’t having a reason to live at that point, right?


[34:09] Eliot Marshall: Right, yeah. Look, I had a great wife and kids but like they were like the root of my anxiety. Mine is all around sleep. So, I freak out with the sleep. So I was like, man I’m not going to sleep and then when I don’t sleep I’m going to go crazy. Renee is only going to put up with this for so long and then she’s going to leave me and then she’s going to take the kids. But then I’m going to go more crazy. Then I could just play this circle in my head. It was awful. Like I said, it doesn’t go away. It gets quieter but it doesn’t ever go away from me. So, I couldn’t lean on my family. That sucked, right? Because normally that’s what you do. You lean on your family and I couldn’t do that. Because they were like, the one thing my oldest would do, I think he didn’t understand it. I don’t think he knew at the time. But right when we were tucking them into bed, I would get into bed with him, I would like lay down. Sometimes I’d be like losing it. Maybe he could feel it, he would just like put his hand on my back. That always helped a little. He’s like my mini me, you know. I had to, for the most part, lean on something other than my family, my at home family. I had to really lean on my students. My mom and dad lived and my sister, they lived in New Jersey so I could lean on them a little bit. I wasn’t worried. They weren’t part of the anxiety. A lot of therapy. I go to therapy every week. Still, to this day, every week I go talk to my therapist.


[35:56] Ashley James: That is so healthy. I think e most well-adjusted people go to therapy. The old paradigm is, you know, therapy is for crazy people. It’s just like, you know what, therapy is for people who want to be mentally strong. I have a friend who said this. I guess she’s a millennial, she’s like an older millennial. But she said this on Facebook, she said, so she’s a chef. She’s a personal chef in Seattle so she like caters to people. One customer will be paleo, the next one will be vegan, the next one will be raw vegan, the next one’s like I don’t care, I just want to do delicious, the next one’s calorie restricted, the next one’s allergic to garlic. I mean it’s just like the list goes on and on. So, she has to like balance in her mind.


[36:38] Eliot Marshall: I hate this by the way. Starbucks is who did this to us. Okay.


[36:44] Ashley James: She has to balance in her mind all these different diets and really caters to their taste. Maybe one doesn’t like Indian and the other one does. So, she’s really good at that. She has a daughter who’s about four and a wonderful boyfriend. She also has a horrible commute because Seattle has really bad traffic. She really seems like she got her stuff together. She said this on Facebook the other day, “If you think I’ve got my stuff together, I wouldn’t have my stuff together for the three times a week I go to therapy.” She’s like, “There’s nothing wrong with me mentally and we need to break away in society from this idea that we go to therapy when there’s something wrong.” You go to therapy to make sure that you can keep it together. She says that that’s how she maintains an incredibly successful business and she’s an amazing mom, an amazing girlfriend. She’s got everything together because she goes to therapy three times a week. She says she would’ve exploded and probably killed everyone by now if it wasn’t for the fact that she goes to therapy. So I just, I love that. That idea that you find the type of therapy, you find the type of therapist that really jives with you and you do it because it allows you to stay sane.


[37:55] Eliot Marshall: This is how I like to put therapy. This is my best analogy. You brush your teeth every day, twice a day?


[38:01] Ashley James: I’d hope so.


[38:03] Eliot Marshall: Why?


[38:04] Ashley James: So my teeth don’t rot out of my head.


[38:07] Eliot Marshall: Okay. So if you ever get to the point where your teeth are rotting out of your head, is brushing your teeth going to do anything?


[38:12] Ashley James: No. You got to go to the dentist at the point.


[38:14] Eliot Marshall: You have to go take these drastic measures, right? You have to take these drastic measures. You’re in crisis. How about you just brush your teeth every day and I probably could guarantee you that that won’t happen.


[38:26] Ashley James: Right.


[38:27] Eliot Marshall: I go to therapy like I brush my teeth. So I can stay out of crisis.


[38:33] Ashley James: What kind of therapy because there’s so many different kinds? You know what kind you work with?


[38:38] Eliot Marshall: We did a lot of CBT. Now, cognitive behavioral therapy. Now, look for me, I just need a verbal vomit to be honest with you. Because I have a lot of people that lean on me. We have seven schools. We’re about to open our seventh school. They’re all run by my best friends. Every single one of them. I don’t do –


[39:03] Ashley James: To be the boss of your best friends can be kind of stressful.


[39:07] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. So, I’m not really the boss. I’m kind of the boss but we have like a CEO and CFO. We’re charging, we charge. We don’t do this like most martial arts schools. Like every single one of my students knows that if they need something that I’ll be there. I hope they know. If they don’t know, I hope they listen to this podcast and they know that. Well that pressure, that’s a lot of pressure. So I have go talk about that. I have to go get my feelings, how I’m feeling out. I can’t hold it in because I know what happens when I hold it in. When I hold it in, I can just play this loop in my, I caught myself again, I can play this loop in my head. Just go and go and I’ll be, you know. I can start in the North Pole and I’ll end in the South Pole and that is awful.


[40:03] Ashley James: So when you sit down and you just get to verbal vomit all the stuff that’s in your head out, after you get it all out and while you’re talking, because I bet the therapist doesn’t really say much. Do you start to really hear the patterns and hear your own limiting decision and hear. You’re like, “Oh, wow. That’s where I’m coming from. That’s interesting.” You’re practically doing your own therapy.


[40:31] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. I do a lot of my own therapy. But I need her. I can’t do it, all right, I’m sure I could. But I love her and we only talk once a week. We do not, I don’t get coffee with her. Nothing. I don’t even know when birthday is and she probably doesn’t even remember when mine is. That’s perfect. Right? That is absolutely perfect. I don’t want it differently because it will ruin what we have. Sometimes we’ll be going and then she’ll go like, “Oh, that doesn’t make, can you sake that again please?” I’m like, here we go.


[41:10] Ashley James: That’s awesome. So she’s kind of like a coach in a way?


[41:12] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. She’s a coach. She‘s this 70-year-old lady. I don’t want to talk to a dude. If I need to tale to a dude, I’m going to call one of my friends. I tried a duded and it just didn’t work. I was like, man, I’m not telling you anything. No, no. I’ll sit here and do this hour because I’m paying for it but it’s going to be the last time we talk. I just, for some reason, the book that I wrote, I need a lady. They get it out of me the best. I don’t know what it is.


[41:43] Ashley James: Well, as long as they get it out of you. It sounds like one of the key, so far what I’ve derived is, to find your power, involve community and get therapy. Does that sound about right?


[41:58] Eliot Marshall: Yes. That sounds about right. But we’re going to take a hard left turn here if you want. Everything in my life that happens to me is my fault. You can’t be a victim. Extreme ownership. You can’t be a victim. Extreme ownership. Like Jocko Willink book, Extreme Ownership, is amazing. Everything in my life is my fault and then I have it tattooed in my arm in Greek because it was first said in Greek. The impediment of action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way, Marcus Aurelius. The obstacle is the way. So, if it’s hard, amazing.


[42:40] Ashley James: I was in a lot of landmark education classes. Have you ever heard of them?


[42:48] Eliot Marshall: No.


[42:49] Ashley James: They started back in 60s. They called themselves Est and then they transformed and called themselves landmark. There are personal growth and development classes all around the world. That’s one of the first things they focus on is being a cause in your world, being responsible for your world. Not that it’s your fault. So, this beautiful woman, she’s like 6’ tall. Gorgeous African-American, long hair, always wears these amazing suits that just like, she’s always so beautiful. She stood there. I was at a talk, a landmark education talk in Atlanta, Georgia. She stood there in front of hundreds, hundreds of people and she said, “I take responsibility for the Holocaust. I take responsibility for slavery.” People are like, what? This is charged. What are you talking about? She’s like, “Just hold on. If I am responsible for who I am in the matter, then it does not have power over me.” I get to dictate how my life goes. It has no power over me.


[44:06] Eliot Marshall: Nobody has my day, Ashley. It’s mine and nobody else’s. So, I like to listen to a lot of people. One of the people I like to listen to is ET, Eric Thomas, motivational speaker, black guy. He’s like,  “Man, you’re damn right I’m an African-American man in America. You’re damn right there’s racism.’’ He’s like, “My dad left when I was a kid. I didn’t graduate high school and my mom did everything she can but she was a crack addict. So what? So what? It’s on me man. It’s on me. Of course that’s not fair.” Now, on the flip side of that, those of are who are fortunate has to do everything we can to help the less fortunate. So, I play this dichotomy. It takes, I’m glad you do long podcasts because if I just hit one side of, people are like, “Oh man that guy sucks.” It’s your fault then no. It is my job to sprinkle, I’m going to steal on Obama line here, to sprinkle as much luck dust on as many people as I possibly can. However, when I’m talking to that individual person, my job is to be like, “No, this is on you.”


[45:29] Ashley James: You’re not a victim of your circumstances.


[45:30] Eliot Marshall: You’re not a victim of your circumstances. You can’t control your circumstances. The only thing you’ve got is you. If you want to sit here and mope and cry and everything else and it’s not my fault. Man, if it’s not your fault, if it’s someone else’s fault, you’re screwed because you can’t control other people. I can’t get my wife, could you imagine for you to try to be like, you know what’s your husband’s name Ashley?


[45:59] Ashley James: Duffy.


[46:00] Eliot Marshall: Duffy. It’s amazing. I’m going to try to get Duffy to not be mad at me ever. You would either go to the loony bin, right? You would either go to the loony bin or you’re just screwed. How could you possibly do that? Man, what if Duffy wrecked the car, his mom died, something else happen and you come home and you were supposed to clean the kitchen. The day went to crap. You didn’t know. He didn’t know. The kitchen, the house is destroyed. You’re not home. He walks in. He’s mad at you. Could you imagine? Not of that was your control over that day and you’re going to try to control Duffy? Come on. You’re screwed if you want to deal with other people. It’s on you. It’s on you. You’re not a victim.


[46:56] Ashley James: It’s what we do in that moment. So your husband’s angry, it’s what we do in that moment. Do we play the victim? Because that’s not going to solve any problems at all. Do we divert lame? That’s not going to solve any problems at all. But listening and taking ownership and say, “Okay, now what? Now what can we do to solve this problem. Let’s work on it together.”


[47:20] Eliot Marshall: I was going to say, I don’t love my wife for all the good times I have with her. Like man, do you know how many good times, and I’m not talking about sex, you know how many good times I have with so many people? I have so many good times. You love them for the awful ones. Like the three in the morning, both kids vomiting. Like mad at each other. Nobody’s doing what we want to do. Then the morning comes and everyone’s still sitting there. That’s where like the sword is forged, you know. The love is forged in those moments. It’s not forged when you’re out at the best dinner ever and you’re walking holding hands at the beach and madly in love. Man, no way. I mean, sure that’s great, but that’s not when that. The sword is just molded in this hard, hard steel. In my opinion, that’s not when that happens. If you’re single, for all the single people out there right now, man, if you’re dating somebody for a week and they’re like, “Yo, let’s go to Hawaii on this amazing vacation.” You’re going to say, yes but you don’t love them, right? You don’t love them yet. So why do you love people? You love them for the hard times and that they’re there for you, the community, the connection, right? You know. So I have six rules for my kids. This is my second book, the Six Rules of Life for you and your Kids. The last rule, rule number six is we ride or die. If my brother goes down, then I go down. That’s what real love is.


[49:10] Ashley James: So you don’t let tattle tailing in the house I bet? You get your kids to help each other.


[49:16] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. I don’t listen to it, but obviously they’re children. So, it doesn’t affect the decisions that I’m going to make with what happens next. No way. Their job is to love each other more than they love me and their mom. That’s how I want it. Because they’re going to most likely and hopefully outlive both of us. That relationship has to be stronger than the one that they rely on us for. I know, right now, they rely on us for a lot. But they can’t so hard because they have to take care of each other. They do. It’s really amazing. It’s really sweet, you know. My kids were just at a birthday party, a sleepover. My 6-year-old, I have a 9 and a 6-year-old, my 6-year-old it was his first time that he was sleeping at somebody else’s house and it wasn’t the neighbor right across the street. So he thinks the neighbors across the street I mean. So we have this 1950s relationship with them. We don’t knock on each other’s doors like if I need eggs, I don’t ask for eggs. I just walk in the house, go in their refrigerator, grab some eggs. If they’re not home, I have the code to their door. I’ll unlock it and get the eggs. I won’t even have to tell them. It’s vice versa. Everything’s the same. So this was the first sleepover where it wasn’t that family. So basically his second family. He had a little trouble and his brother was there. The way it went down is he got into bed with his brother and they just slept together. His brother took care of him. All of his brother’s friends were there because it was his brother’s friend’s birthday. So, there were like seven kids there, eight kids. All of my eldest son’s age. The reason my youngest son was there was because the birthday boy has a brother who’s their age and they wanted him to be occupied and not be in his brother’s way. So it worked out perfectly but then come sleep time, he’s never slept anywhere else before especially not away from his mom and dad and especially not where his not very comfortable. They know the rule, rule number six man. They take care of each other. They have to take care of each other.


[51:40] Ashley James: That’s awesome. So we got to take care of each other but we need to take that responsibility. I like that dichotomy again. We’re 100% accountable for everything that happens in our life and we need to help those who are struggling. We need to build community. I was just thinking, I have a friend who was born with intense dyslexia. He wasn’t diagnosed just because of the time of when he was born. I think he’s about 50 now. He went through school as intense dyslexic but he was not diagnosed until two years after graduating high school. His mom is an art teacher. So his mom helped him to pour in his creative outlet into things because he had a hard time reading and writing. Of course, getting through high school not being able to learn to read and write is very, very hurt. I’m just thinking like, someone who, like you use the example of a man who is African-American whose dad left whose mom was a crack person and had a lot of crap happen. It’s like, he’s like his not of a victim of circumstances. Yes, there’s definitely bias against me, the racial bias, bias around my upbringing, right? Then my friend over here who is extreme dyslexic. Both scenarios, they could have said that they’re a victim of education system. They’re a victim of the government. They’re a victim of societies’ bias against them. They could’ve bought in the victim hood and not made a life for themselves. But they both just worked even harder than everyone else in order to grab the joy and the life that they want. You know what? They’re probably happier because it was probably harder for them and it makes it even sweeter. That’s like, where going to come back to that idea that we’re in heaven and hell at the same time. Because when you don’t have to work for something to earn it, that doesn’t actually bring happiness.


[54:06] Eliot Marshall: No, it brings nothing.


[54:06] Ashley James: It brings nothing. But when you have to work your butt off to get something that brings you the most joy ever. So, yeah, we have to work our butts off. No one has it all. It’s like someone might be a certain race but the other person has a learning disability or the other person has a physical disability. Like everyone’s got something going on. Someone has, you know, bipolar. Everyone has something. Everyone has their hell. Everyone does. It doesn’t make racism right. It’s not right. That’s how we as a community need to help.


[54:46] Eliot Marshall: And we don’t. Sorry, go ahead. You go. I just thought about something.


[54:50] Ashley James: I was just saying that we need to, we obviously as individuals need to help as many people as possible, right? Because if we don’t want a world where there’s racism anymore, then we need to be that example as individuals to help that. But everyone is going through their own personal hell. Everyone has their demons they are facing. Everyone has their struggles, right? So, if we own it and then we plug in to community and help other people and other people help us, I love that idea. Taking ownership but at the same time helping other people because we need to help. Everyone has an imbalance that they’re dealing with.


[55:32] Eliot Marshall: We don’t need to compare. Mine doesn’t have to be worse than yours. Yours doesn’t have to be worse than mine. We don’t need to do this. We are where we are. Your hell is hell right now. My hell is, I don’t need to be well, let me tell you. Let me tell you about mine was. That’s unnecessary. The last little part here I think that helps me go through my life with this dichotomy is I don’t believe in the self-made man or that term is something man or a woman. It doesn’t exist.


[56:10] Ashley James: Because it took more than one person?


[56:13] Eliot Marshall: Man. So, I mean, for example this guy Eric Thomas. He’s like the number two. He’s an amazing motivational speaker. Did he invent the internet? Because that’s what made him be able to do it. It’s the internet.


[56:33] Ashley James: Right. So someone who’s a famous author, like he didn’t invent books. Tony Robbins didn’t invent infomercials.


[56:42] Eliot Marshall: No. Did you invent the author? Did you invent the printing press? No. Because that’s what did it. Without the printing press your author, your amazing writing skills, out the window. How many millions of people, billions of people came before you who tell way better stories in a way better way but there is no such this as the printing press? But now, while you‘re alive, there’s this printing. All of a sudden you did it on your own? Come on.


[57:09] Ashley James: I love that because we often will look at these people who have really made it. They made it. Like Tony Robbins has made it. He’s like a billionaire. He has made it. He’s helped so many people. You look at him and you’re like, “I could never do that.” But that’s like the little voice.


[57:26] Eliot Marshall: Yes, yes. That might be right. Hold on. You might not be able to be Tony Robbins. You know what I’m not? I’m not Lebron James. I’m not 6’8”. I am not a physical specimen that Lebron James is. That might be what I am. That’s okay. That’s okay. But there’s something that I could be Lebron Jamesesque at. I could be amazing at something. That’s what we have to realize. We’ve got to stop this comparison. Like, man I want to be like Mike. Yeah, me too. I want to be like Mike my whole life. But it didn’t work out. So what? So what? I’m going to be better than Mike at what I do. I’m going to be amazing at Eliot. That’s what I’m going to do. I hope that my amazing at Eliot shows everyone else who’s a fat Jewish black kid growing up with no friends. I hope everyone that sees that can go, “Oh man, I could be amazing too.” Because I don’t believe personally, I don’t know we might differ here, I don’t believe in free will. I believe we are a product of our chemical makeup and our life experience. We can’t touch our chemical makeup. So, there’s medicines and things that we could do to do that. But that is what it is. However, my job is to touch people’s life experience.


[58:55] Ashley James: I’m curious. Can you explain what do you mean by we don’t have free will?


[59:02] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. So, it comes down to things like choice. We make choices all the time. Every day we make a choice. Am I going to have apple juice or orange juice, bla bla bla? Can you think of a movie for me?


[59:16] Ashley James: The Game Changers.


[59:18] Eliot Marshall: Think of another one.


[59:19] Ashley James: Rambo.


[59:20] Eliot Marshall: Okay. So, why did you think of the Game Changers?


[59:23] Ashley James: Because I was just telling my doctor about it today.


[59:27] Eliot Marshall: Okay. So, you already had that conversation.


[59:28] Ashley James: Yup.


[59:29] Eliot Marshall: Then why did you think about Rambo?


[59:31] Ashley James: I guess because the Game Changer is about a bunch of athletes and Rambo is also a muscular guy.


[59:37] Eliot Marshall: Right. So, all on the same realm.


[59:39] Ashley James: Yup.


[59:39] Eliot Marshall: Why did you make that choice? Did we free to make that choice or did it just pop in your head?


[59:45] Ashley James: I mean, I know a lot of movies. I do. But those two popped in my head.


[59:49] Eliot Marshall: It just popped and you can’t even explain to me why.


[59:51] Ashley James: I can’t, no.


[59:53] Eliot Marshall: Were you free or did it just happen?


[59:55] Ashley James: I think it just happened.


[59:57] Eliot Marshall: So, at what choices that we make in our life do all of a sudden does this innate you take over and start making that choice?


[1:00:06] Ashley James: Well, I think consciously when I catch myself –


[1:00:13] Eliot Marshall: I couldn’t have asked you a simple conscious question.


[1:00:17] Ashley James: When I have to really consciously go, okay, this is a healthier choice for me to make. So, if I’m in the kitchen.


[1:00:25] Eliot Marshall: Sometimes you eat ice cream don’t you? 


[1:00:28] Ashley James: Yeah. Because I go, okay. We’ll just do it. But it’s plant based, there’s no dairy in it because that would hurt. But yeah.


[1:00:40] Eliot Marshall: Are you a Buddhist?


[1:00:43] Ashley James: No. I’m allergic to dairy and I’m plant-based.


[1:00:47] Eliot Marshall: Right. But still, the choice, it’s really this really weird thing. Like I said, we make choices all the time but if you could –


[1:01:02] Ashley James: But who’s making the choice? Who’s making it, right? Like what’s the –


[1:01:06] Eliot Marshall: We are. We definitely are. We definitely are making that choice but we couldn’t make another choice in the moment is what no free will means to me. Because of our chemical makeup and our past experience. That’s what lets me do the whole no blame no credit thing.


[1:01:21] Ashley James: Well, you’re also stopping yourself from shaming yourself or holding on to guilt.


[1:01:29] Eliot Marshall: Shaming myself and/or others. Even like the Murderer. It helps me have a little empathy for the murderer because if I can say, ‘man, if my life was that life, that’s where I’d end up too.’ I’m not better than that guy. Now, it will be really hard for me to get there right now. It will be really hard for me to be poor and broke and homeless right now, currently. That would take some major screw ups. Is screw up a curse word?


[1:01:56] Ashley James: No.


[1:01:58] Eliot Marshall: Okay. Nice. Okay. That would take some major screw ups on my part. This would take me years to bring me to mess this up bad currently. But man, let’s rewind 20 years. Let’s go put myself in the veteran, Vietnam veteran or the Iraq veteran or the whatever war veteran. Let me live his life and let me kill some kids, possibly, and then see where I go. But we don’t like to think like that. We like to think like, no man. This you could probably handle that but we’re not talking about this you. We’re talking about a different you. A totally different you. So, that what allows me to have a lot of empathy and try to be like, “You know what, I’m not better than anyone.” At the same time, no one’s better than me.


[1:02:54] Ashley James: There’s a principle in neurolinguistic programming that everyone is doing the best they can with the resources they have available.


[1:03:06] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. You think anybody wants to be a crack addict? I know what I’m going to do today. I’m going to wake up and become a crack head. No one has ever said that. A lot of people smoke crack unfortunately, right? A lot of people smoke crack and do terrible awful things and make terrible awful decisions. They’re doing the best they can at the moment.


[1:03:40] Ashley James: What’s the advice you have for people who really want to turn their life around for people who have just come to the conclusion that the direction they’re going is not the right one for them? They see themselves going down that really dark path.


[1:03:52] Eliot Marshall: Amazing, good for you. Yes. Amazing. So, now we can start. Now we can actually start to do something. Because you’re saying, I want something different. Until you say that, nothing’s going to change. I mean everyone, probably everyone listening if it’s adults, knows somebody or maybe is that person who is an addict, right? How much talking to an addict can you do to get them to change? Nothing.


[1:04:25] Ashley: They have to be ready.


[1:04:28] Eliot Marshall: They have to want it. I know sometimes they go, ‘oh man, that’s rock bottom,’ and then nope. We don’t l know what rock bottom looks like. But once you see it, once you are lucky enough, and I said lucky enough, to get a glimpse that you want something different for your life. Now we can do it. In my opinion, the way it’s done, is with mindfulness. We have to learn to be in the moment. We have to just be still and be in the moment. The way I do that is with meditation. I meditate every day. That’s where I start. That’s what I recommend for everyone to start when somebody asks me for some help is I say, “Hey, let’s try this mediation thing.”


1:05:15] Ashley James: How did you learn to meditate?


[1:05:17] Eliot Marshall: So, religions never worked for me. It may never. I hope I’m going to come off like I’m going to bash religion here because I don’t want to. The whole sin thing doesn’t make sense in my mind. It doesn’t make sense to me. Like I was born. So you’re telling me I was born terrible? In my opinion, if you tie it back, it always ties back to some even or something that 10,000 years ago, five, whenever you choose the religion and the event that happened. Man why is that messing with me? Why am I paying that price? Do I do things wrong? Of course I do things wrong. So, the traditional Christianity and Judaism and Islam, they just don’t work for me because I can’t rationalize it out. Sometimes, the eastern religions, they go a little better for me in my head. Not so much the religion of them but the practice of them. Because you lose the self especially in Buddhism. How do we lose the self? We start losing the self by realizing literally just one single moment. I’ve been able to realize moments in my life a couple of times like where I’ve had just this, so when you fight professionally, when you walk into that cage and that cage door gets locked, there’s only you and another dude in there. You’re not thinking about anything else. Dinner is not going through that head. Nothing. My children are not going through my head. My wife and my mom, nothing. Then there’s even just more stillness. I can remember the very last fight that I had. My nickname’s the fire marshal. Then my coach, he will just call me as fire marshal. He sat down on the stool. I was probably, it was either I was tired or I was losing one round a piece. He looks at me and he goes, “All right fire marshal, we all know that this could be it for you right here.” I mean we’re in the middle of chaos. It’s chaos. A fight is just chaos. Literally, if that person were to kick my head off, they would do it, right? I just remember this piece came over me. This absolute calmness. I went out and I had the best round of my life against the best opponent I ever fought. [Inaudible] It was just this amazingness. I never got to do it again because that was my last fight. So, those moments. If we can start to realize them a little more, how do we recreate that? You recreate that by focusing on your breath, by realizing that all we have is right now and just digging deeper and deeper into that.


[1:08:43] Ashley James: I love it. That was so cool. One of my best friends is a master create yoga teacher. Create yoga is not the stretchy kind of yoga. It’s the stretch your mind kind of yoga. I’m going to hook you guys up. I’ve had him on the show before. He’s coming on again. His name is Forrest Knutson. He figured out. He lived in a monastery for several years. He was a monk. He’s been meditating since he was a teenager. He grew up in Idaho and he felt like, well everyone was drinking beer and driving trucks, he was meditating. He did not fit in. So he escaped to California and lived in a monastery for many years as a monk. He figured out a way of using biofeedback to go deeper into meditation and to go actually get into those data waves and stuff like that. So he’s all into the science of how to maximize mediation. I think that you guys would really get along. Actually, you might want to have him on your show actually. He’s so, I mean he’s meditating his entire life. What you described is really non-threatening for people who have never meditated. Okay, I’m just going to breathe and focus on the now and get that all that I have is right now. Okay. I’m just going to breathe and be in the now.


[1:10:05] Eliot Marshall: You can’t mess it up. If you sit there for 10 minutes, you did it. Yes, your thoughts go all over here and there, wherever. Yes, sure. Okay. A little stillness in your d ay. I’m reading Ryan Holiday’s new book Stillness. It’s amazing. Just have some stillness every day where you just sit there and breathe. Because our days are chaos. We’ve done this to ourselves. Society has done this. You said you have two kids. How old are your kids.


[1:10:39] Ashley James: Oh, I have one.


[1:10:41] Eliot Marshall: One, I’m sorry.


[1:10:42] Ashley James: She’s four and a half.


[1:10:42] Eliot Marshall: Four and a half. Like you’re here, you’re there, your husband, your job, your podcast, your this, your that, right? Then your phone rings, that damn cellphone. Because it never leaves you alone or did you choose to have it never leave you alone. Because you actually respond. I do the same thing. I’m as guilty as everyone. I choose to respond. One of the best things I ever did was turn that damn thing on silent. I’m not a slave to it as much. Every bit it makes like beep, beep. What’s that. Oh, a notification. Oh, Instagram. Oh, Facebook. Oh, my email. Oh, this. Oh, that. We try to say these stuff in the name of protection and security. The kids are at school so I have to have my phone on. Man, our parents didn’t have cellphone. Somehow, when I got sick at school, they found my parents. My parents came and got me. I was never stuck at school for days upon days. We do all of this in the name of security. It’s just not true. There’s not more child abductions now than there was before. So why do you have to track your kid on the cellphone?


[1:12:11] Ashley James: Did you find that your anxiety went up when you find yourself at the peak of phone notifications?


[1:12:21] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. I had to turn my phone off. Yeah, I had to stop screen time. I get 6 o’clock at night, the phone had to be done. I mean, I can do it now, I do better with it now. It doesn’t bother me as much. I didn’t have my phone on silent so every single time that thing beeped there was something for me to respond to. It’s not true. It’s just not true. Can you imagine 20 years ago? How old are you, Ashley?


[1:13:01] Ashley James: I’m going to be, I’m 39 1/2.


[1:13:03] Eliot Marshall: We’re the same age. When’s your birthday?


[1:13:05] Ashley James: March 7, 1980.


[1:13:05] Eliot Marshall: I’m July 7, 1980. Look it up. We’re like almost exact dates. A 7th. So we’re the same age, right? When you are 15 years old and somebody left the house, where did they go? They just disappeared in the ether, right.


[1:13:26] Ashley James: We just managed to find each other.


[1:13:30] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. But somehow it all works out. Mom came back with groceries and dad put them away.


[1:13:41] Ashley James: Life without cellphones was fantastic. It was weird. Every time we drive somewhere, I’m like, how did we get places without gps? I don’t remember. I don’t remember. But I remember driving to addresses that I’d never been to. How did we get there? How did we know how to get to places?


[1:13:59] Eliot Marshall: I try to do it now. As soon as I drive to a place, so I do a couple times with the gps when I go places. Then I turn the gps off and go, ‘okay, I’m going to try to remember things’ like you remember things. You should be like, okay dude. So you’re going to get to my house. After you take that left you’re going to take the third right. It’s going to be by the Shell station. You had to like do this. That’s exactly how we did it especially when we were kids and we were riding bikes.


[1:14:26] Ashley James: It’s like a whole skill that we don’t have anymore.


[1:14:31] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. It’s a whole skill. That’s important to keep. Look, I don’t want to just hate on social media and cellphones because it gives us the connection that we need. You and I, we couldn’t be doing this or have scheduled this or anything without social media and things like I’ll call. Because I call this social media and email is social media in my opinion. So, it’s not all terrible. But we need to have this balance. There has to be a little ying and yang. No victims but everything is your fault, but you got to help somebody.


[1:15:08] Ashley James: I love it. I love the constant dichotomy is great. It actually, you have to have higher thinking. You have to have developed higher mental thinking to be able to hold two opposing thoughts at once.


[1:15:22] Eliot Marshall: Because they oppose. They definitely oppose. I’m a math major. For me I think this is why getting to the religion a little bit. When it never worked there comes a point where the thought can’t be opposed. That has to just be true. That doesn’t work for me. Because everything in my life is falsifiable


[1:15:49] Ashley James: Question everything.


[1:15:53] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. Question it but you could prove it wrong to me. I wouldn’t die in the single one of my beliefs. I could be so wrong.


[1:16:03] Ashley James: Yes. You’re willing to be wrong. You’re willing to change your mind. I love that. I was so hardcore keto I don’t know three ago. Like this is the best diet in the world. I can’t believe it. A few months later, I’m like, this is really bad. What was I thinking? To be able to go, you know what, there’s some diets are really good for some people at that one point in their lives and then three months later it might be like a poisonous diet for them or a different person. It’s about finding the right diet for the right time for the needs of the person. But not buying into any dogma and so being willing to be wrong. Like I love that you say don’t die for your beliefs. Oh my gosh, people do that all the time.


[1:16:54] Eliot Marshall: Not a single one. Not to get political. I’m not going to judge you at all based on this question but are you pro-life or pro-choice?


[1:17:01] Ashley James: That’s a really, really hard question. It’s something that I’ve grappled with for a really long time. I thought when I was a teenager that I was 100% pro-life. Then I found out after my mom died my dad, the night my mom died my dad sat me down. Why he waited until she died I guess it was her wish. He said, “Do you know that you would have been an abortion? If I wasn’t pro-life…” I was like, what? My dad said to me, your mom never wanted you to know. I said to her, “No. We’re going to get married.” He completely stopped being a bachelor. He lived such a party lifestyle and he said, I love this unborn child in you and I’m going to raise her or him, because they didn’t know. He was just so, he loved life. My dad has passed since but he loved life so much and he loved people so much. He was so firm that life is so precious. That really laid an impact on me. I’m like, yeah. I can’t impose my will on anyone. So for me it’s like my body. Life is precious. I can only say pro-life in my womb because that’s the only womb I control. I wouldn’t impose on anyone else.


[1:18:27] Eliot Marshall: So the only reason I ask is because so many people, let’s just say, ‘okay, I’m pro-life but then I know that you would be pro second amendment. Then you would be pro this or pro that or against this or against that. Because we are so divided.


[1:18:46] Ashley James: Right. The second someone is pro guns. That must mean they’re this, that must mean they’re that.


[1:18:51] Eliot Marshall: That must mean they’re pro-life. If you’re pro-gun you’re pro-life. That is such crap. That is total crap that this is where we are.


[1:19:03] Ashley James: The reason why they created a two-party system, if you look at it, it’s to keep people fighting each other. If you keep the masses fighting each other they will not rise together.


[1:19:14] Eliot Marshall: Right. Because you think the other side is so terrible. If you voted for Donald Trump you are such an awful person. I can’t even be friends with you anymore. If you voted for Hilary, oh my God, her emails. We just hate each other. We just absolutely hate. Man, the day I lose a friend because of who they vote for, I have a huge problem. I have a huge problem. I’m not friends with anybody because of who they vote for.


[1:19:51] Ashley James: There was a time when I was in high school, this was in Canada, so socialized medicine –


[1:19:56] Eliot Marshall: I thought so. I thought so.


[1:20:00] Ashley James: House about. I don’t see anymore. So when I first moved here, my coworkers beat the eh out of me within one week. Every time I said eh they’d go turn on me and go b, c, d. About a week after that, it’s a habit for us to say eh. Anyways, I don’t say eh, I can’t shake the house or the about. So in Canada, I was really proud that I wasn’t afraid of shots, getting any vaccines. So I’d be the first in line. In high school, they didn’t need our parents’ permission, I got like the hep b, hep c whatever. I got a bunch of those vaccines. I got a bunch of whatever. A flu shot weren’t really big then. They were just starting to come in but I was super proud of getting them. I was first in line. I would pull up my sleeve. Yeah. Give me extra. Give me more. Give me three vaccines. Come on. I’m not afraid. I love shots. I was so pro that. Then I started to learn more and more and more about pharmaceuticals. Now, I look back, I was a completely different person than what I am now. My beliefs system, thank God I didn’t hold on to a belief system just for the idea that it was part of my identity because I have the exact opposite beliefs that I did when I was a teenager.


[1:21:24] Eliot Marshall: If I die thinking what I think right now, oh my God. Let’s just say I got to 80, if I die thinking what I think right now in 40 years, what a waste of time. What a waste of time. That means I learned nothing. It means I read no books. It means I did no study. It means I did no self-exploration. I did no growth. If I die like this, if this is where I end. Man, what a waste of time.


[1:21:56] Ashley James: I love that attitude. It’s like, ‘challenge me, challenge my belief system. Let me expand my mind.’


[1:22:04] Eliot Marshall: Please. So jiu-jitsu for me, that’s my rule number one is, me and my kids, have to jiu-jitsu because it’s ever changing. The way that you have to deal with it is ever changing. You get a live response, like in the moment. You get showed how wrong you are all the time. You have to adjust to that person. Oh, did that wrong, oh did that wrong. If you bat, when I say bat if you’re successful at 25% of the moves that you try in jiu-jitsu then you’re amazing, you’re a world champion because you’re just wrong all the time. But you get good at being wrong. You get good at adjusting. You get good at not caring about, who cares because all I do is mess up. It’s what I do better than everything else in the whole world is mess up.


[1:23:01] Ashley James: That is so cool. That concept of like if you’re actually getting it right 25% of the time you’re like a world champion. So there’s a lot of like getting it wrong and that’s okay because that’s actually good because you’re learning from each instance. I know so many people who are afraid to cook in the kitchen, are afraid to really expand their palette because you know, what comes down to it, they were never comfortable failing in the kitchen. They burnt something once, their spouse didn’t like what they cooked or whatever. It’s like this mental block.


[1:23:37] Eliot Marshall: Then they might tie their identity to it.


[1:23:39] Ashley James: Right. I’m not a cook. I’m not good at cooking.


[1:23:41] Eliot Marshall: Then they tie their ego to it. Their ego gets in the way. But if there is no self and there is no ego then how could get in the way? Right? How can it get in the way? So, if we can work on this then we can just be outside of it a little bit then maybe, possibly we can learn how to cook. Because come on, make a meal and you’re telling me you’ve never had a bad meal before. We’ve all eaten at McDonald’s.


[1:24:06] Ashley James: I was never afraid to burn things in the kitchen. I was never afraid to mess up. I was like six or seven years old, my grandmother was teaching me how to cook. She was a German Polish background so she’d perogies and shortbread cookies and this amazing chicken soup. I just loved making things in the kitchen. You know, I burnt so many things. That was just part of the process. My friends love, love eating at my place because I cook really, really healthy delicious food. But I just don’t have a fear of failure because I always am pushing the edge of the limits of what I can do. My husband’s like, “You experiment too much.” Because there’s a potential, there’s always like that fear factor. He’s looking at me, about to put the fork in his mouth, is this going to be bad, is this going to be good? I don’t know. Because when it’s good, it’s really good but I’ll serve anything even if it’s bad. So it’s just he does not know what he’s getting. I experiment. Just last night, we were over at our friend’s house. He was like, “You’re food is always good.” He looks at me. You experiment too much. I’m like, ‘That’s because Naomi only serves you the success stories. She doesn’t serve the failures.” Naomi’s like looks at him and goes, “Yeah.” We fail in the kitchen so we can learn how to make stuff better. That’s just how we succeed. But we don’t see them as failures. It’s like science and it’s an experiment. Then we go, ‘oh, less garlic, less thyme next time.’ I’m going to just do this next time or I need to set the temperature at this. It just becomes this continues ebb and flow of learning and growing the culinary skills.


[1:25:49] Eliot Marshall: There’s a saying in business. Hire slow, fire fast. That’s what you have to do because you have to realize your failure then let it go, right? I hired the wrong person, now am I going to hold on to this? Because now, again it’s going to be me who failed because I hired that person. It’s going to be me who failed because I burnt the food or I did this or I did that. Again, this all comes back to you and your ego and yourself. If we can get rid of this idea, if we can just lose this idea because we know that our ego is the enemy, then, that’s another Ryan Holiday book sorry. I steal everything, nothing is original. Somebody did it better.


[1:26:36] Ashley James: You should. Because you package it better.


[1:26:42] Eliot Marshall: I work on my spiel. I’m even doing it without cursing, look. I’ve never done this before.


[1:26:48] Ashley James: You’re doing amazing. You need to like hit the road. You need a whole show.




[1:26:56] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. We’ll get there. It’s okay. It really is okay that we fail. It’s the most amazing thing that we can do is we can fail because it’s just like courage. Courage is not, not being afraid. Courage, here comes one of my rules again, rule number four is being afraid and still doing it.


[1:27:21] Ashley James: It’s owning your fear.


[1:27:22] Eliot Marshall: It’s saying yes, I’m afraid. But you know what it’s not going to do? It’s not going to stop me. Failure is the same. Of course I’m going to fail. Man, there was this one time we were doing this thing for one of the schools. We spent $26,572.00, I remember the exact amount. It took nine months for them to build it out and then implement it. You know how fast we realized it sucked and wasn’t for us?


[1:27:53] Ashley James: I don’t know.


[1:27:54] Eliot Marshall: One week. One week. They were sitting there looking at each other going, damn it. But it’s not for us. It’s not who we are. It’s not our culture. It was so bad for us that we could see it. We had to let it go. Almost $30,000. But what would’ve been worse is just try to shove that crap down our people’s throats. What would’ve been worse is to put that out into the ether and put that out into the public so people could see that this is what we’re doing and this is how we are. That would’ve been worse because that would’ve compromised my soul.


[1:28:41] Ashley James: Or to have not taken any action in the beginning. If not done it for fear that it wouldn’t work out. Then always sit there wondering, what if I had?


[1:28:54] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. Wish I would have. What if and wish I would have are two words that I won’t say back to back.


[1:29:08] Ashley James: Unless you’re saying I won’t say them.


[1:29:09] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. But I won’t go, ‘what if this happens, what if the sun doesn’t come up tomorrow?’ All the evidence says that it will but there is this possibility. Now, am I going to live my life as what if the sun won’t come up? No, and wish I would have? I’m going to grind until the day I die.


[1:29:29] Ashley James: Awesome. It does take that conscious effort to catch yourself and go, “Oh, there I am shooting myself. Now I’m going to choose a healthier thought process.” It takes time to rewire the brain. The neuroplasticity of rewiring that brain. It does take that repetition of catching ourselves when we’re shooting ourselves and go, ‘all right, new way of being. New way of thinking.’


[1:29:56] Eliot Marshall: So there’s this competition called ADCC. It is the Olympics for grappling, for jiu-jitsu. I’ve been trying to get into this, you have to qualify or get invited, and I’ve been trying to get into this since I was 21 years old. It was the only thing in my professional career that didn’t accomplish. I got into everything else like I said. Man, this year I got in. I got an invite. At this old man age, I was the oldest guy in the whole competition. Look, there was no dreams of winning. The people that win these are 20, right? It’s like the Olympics. They dedicate their whole lives to this that I don’t dedicate. They train like I work. I train like they might actually work. If I get two hours in a day, that’s amazing. I can’t do that every day but they do. Now what got me good enough for me to be able to qualify is peace of mind. Like a different thought of how to compete. So, anyway, I get in and I have a two-time champ in the first round. It’s invite only. It’s 16 people per division. Only happens once every two years. It’s literally the Olympics. I was like, ‘you know what, I’m going to try this move right away. I’m going to sit down and I’m going to boom, I’m going to try to hit this move immediately. It’s a high risk, high reward move. I didn’t do it for the reward of it. I did it for the risk because I knew it was going to get this idea that I had to be perfect in the match out of my head right away. Immediately. I mean, look, I guess if I pulled it off I’d be on a highlight reel for the rest of my life pulling it off. I was also taking this risk that I was going to be on a highlight reel messing it up for the rest of my life. Where we landed was somewhere in the middle, more towards the bad end. It went very poorly for me. Then I’ve had to recover. I had to work my way out. Look, I didn’t win. But it got me out of the idea of I have to be perfect. Because I went into that and I was like, ‘you know what, I’m going to kill or be killed. I’m really going to go for it.’ Because I don’t want to have a boring match. I don’t want to have a match where like – right?


[1:32:32] Ashley James: You didn’t play it safe.


[1:32:33] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. If I get killed, even at the end I was like, ‘I’m losing right now.’ I was down on points. I was like, ‘I could stay right here,’ and you never want to get finished, right? That’s when you always have to tap. That always sucks. It messes with your ego. In the moment, I was like, ’okay, here I go. I’m going to take this risk.’ Because the only way that I could actually possibly still win is to now take this next major risk of possibly getting finished. I happen. I got finished because the guy’s amazing. He’s a multiple, he’s like a 5-time, 6-time world champion. So, it is what it is. I’m 40, right? But I was super proud of myself for keeping the kill or be killed mentality all the way through the match. I blew it immediately. I didn’t go ten seconds without an absolute epic fail. Then it had no bearing in the match. I recovered to the point where it was mutual again. The score still stayed 0-0. So, yeah. Fine.


[1:33:42] Ashley James: That is so sweet. I love recovery stories. I love it.


[1:33:47] Eliot Marshall: That’s what we have to do.


[1:33:48] Ashley James: Shaking it off and like mentally recovering is a skill. Like how quickly can I bounce back? Another landmark forum experience after my mom died¸ I went and retook landmark forum which is like their foundation weekend course. That’s the course where they have you get that I’m the cause of everything in my world. People are fighting it. They’re like, ‘what about rape?’ they’re bringing out all the really, really dark stuff. By the end of the course they get it. That it’s taking responsibility so that nothing else have power over you. Then when you’re in that mentally position, you position yourself as being responsible for everything in your world. Then you are at cause in your moment. Every moment you’re at cause creating your world. So a victim of rape is no longer a victim of rape. They’re being a cause in their world. They get to decide how they move forward with their life and not allow that act that happened to them to continue to affect them years later. They’re going to seek healing.


[1:35:02] Eliot Marshall: How long are you going to take that person rape you?


[1:35:04] Ashley James: Exactly. It’s not condoning it. It’s bad. It’s horrible. It’s wrong. They should all be castrated. Seriously, maximum penalty. The person who had it happened to them, they have the power to become empowered. To find their power, right? So, anyways, that’s like the first step in the forum. So, it’s a freaking heavy weekend. I went. I would drove all the way to Montreal with a few of my friends. One of the oldest forum –


[1:35:37] Eliot Marshall: Where in Canada are you from?


[1:35:38] Ashley James: I’m from Toronto. Yeah. I’m from North York. One of the oldest forum leaders who have been doing it for like 30 years, I asked him. I’m like, ‘You know, I just lost my mom a few months ago and I’m really depressed. I’m grieving really heavily and I want to, I just couldn’t get out of this loop. I want to make sure I’m grieving healthfully.’ He told me a story. He goes, ‘You know, I was leading a landmark forum,’ he was leading this class for hundreds of people. It was a really big class. They only had like 15-minute break. So he comes out and it’s his break and he’s drinking some water or something. He gets a phone call and his brother had just died of a heart attack. His mind just starts going off. He goes, ‘I thought about our last phone call. I can’t remember if I said I love you or not. I didn’t say I love you. We had a fight. It just started vicious cycle over and over again.’ He started feeling guilty and shame and blaming and agree. His mind was just messed up like anyone would be to get the news that their brother had died. He only had 15 minutes to recover and go back on stage because the lives of these people are at stake, right? They’re all there to get a transformation for their life. He can’t just check out mentally. So he had to like seriously have a moment just like you did where it’s like he had to recover. So he caught himself. This is what really hit me is that even the healthiest people in the world, the healthiest people in the world still would catch the cold once in a while. But it’s how fast their body heals. It’s how fast their body gets over it. So they might have a fever, go to bed with sniffles and wake up the next day and be totally fine. Whereas the average person is in bed for a week or two, right? It’s not that we’re invaluable. It’s not that you get so good at personal growth that you never fail or never slip up. It’s how fast you recover. So he share the story of how he was able to recover from that. He said to himself, he just got in touch with what so, with reality. What is real in the now? He said to himself, ‘I miss him. I love him. I’m sad,’ about his brother. I can’t remember his brother’s name. He’s like, “I miss Tom. I love him. I’m sad. I miss him. I love him. I’m sad.’ Any other thought was not what so, it wasn’t real. It was a made up story. He didn’t know I loved him or it’s my fault. I should’ve done this. I should’ve done that. All of that was just tripping him up. But if had just gotten in touch with the what so, what so is I miss him, I love him, I’m sad. That’s what kept him present in the moment. Then he recovered. Then he got back on stage and he led an amazing weekend for those people. Some people might say he wasn’t grieving healthfully or he was like shoving it down. He wasn’t ignoring his feelings. He was owning them. He wasn’t pushing them away. He is in them. He went through them just like you said, go through it. He went through it. He owned. He recovered. He said, eventually the sadness went away. Then he just said, ‘I miss him, I love him.’ He said, ‘he’s gone. I miss him. I love him. I’m sad. He’s gone. I miss him. I love him. I’m sad.’ Then eventually it was, ‘he’s gone. I miss him. I love him.’ That really helped me with my grieving because it’s like, yeah I had so much going on in my head about blaming myself. I mean my mom died of cancer. I was 22 years old and yeti felt like it was my fault or I could’ve done so. If only I had done this. If only I had done that, right? So I had to own what so and then really get all that stuff that’s not so is not real and stop holding it against myself. I love that your story shows that in the most intense situation. You chose to do something completely ballsy and you’re totally okay that it messed up because you recovered really quickly mentally and it’s all mental, right? Because your game is in your head. So you mentally recovered and you physically recovered and then you like shook it off and you kept fighting.


[1:40:06] Eliot Marshall: So for me, we have to practice, right? We have to practice for when the big moments come. Like when your mom dies and your brother dies. Because let me tell you, you know when it’s not a big moment? Who the world champion is. What’s your favorite sport?


[1:40:25] Ashley James: Hockey?


[1:40:27] Eliot Marshall: Hockey, who won the Stanley cup in 2011?


[1:40:30] Ashley James: Oh geez, I have no idea. I’m not great.


[1:40:33] Eliot Marshall: Hold on. I love jiu-jitsu. I love jiu-jitsu. Guess what, I don’t remember who the world champion was either. Okay. Because how can it actually matter? If we don’t know who the very, very, if we have to Google who the very, very best was at said activity in that year, at that moment, then it can’t really actually matter. So what is the point of this? The point of this is for me to go out there and practice being in the moment. So even if I would’ve won that match it still wouldn’t have mattered because what’s going to matter is my kids going to need me at some point. My kids going to need me maybe on my worst day. When my mom dies or something and I’m going to have to show up. I still going to have to show up. So that’s the practice that I’m doing. These tough moments that I choose to put myself in, come on. You think somebody cares who wins a barely legal street night on a Saturday night? No. Nobody cares. Because if they did they would remember them all but we sure do remember the times when we really needed somebody. So those are the moments I’m practicing for. Those are the moments that I’m always practicing for. That’s why I choose to do really hard stuff. I like hard stuff. I like working out really intensely. I know about the physical benefits. Yes. I like the mental benefit.


[1:42:08] Ashley James: I actually got to hang out with Marilu Henner a few times. She’s an actress. She was in Taxi. She was on the Apprentice. I thought she was really good on the Apprentice. She has this crazy ability that she has photographic memory but you can tell her what happened on May 7, 1982. She will tell you everything that happened, or you could say to her if you’ve met her a few times, tell me every date we ever like every period in time we ever met each other. She just remembers dates and what happened on each day. She’s a really cool public speaker. We had an opportunity to hear her a few times. We were actually in Cancun with her at one point. She has this thing where she says, ‘Choose your heart.’ She has a whole spiel obviously that comes with it. But the point is choose your heart. Don’t sit there and worry about stuff and try to stay safe and try to keep comfortable, right? Because the more we try to stay safe and keep comfortable the more uncomfortable and unsafe we’ll be down the road.


[1:43:32] Eliot Marshall: God, it’s so terrible. It’s so terrible what we do though, right? It goes back to our kids. You know, all the stuff we do to make our kids safe.


[1:43:40] Ashley James: Then we’re just making them unsafe because we’re making them so naïve and so sheltered.


[1:43:45] Eliot Marshall: So sheltered. I read this great book. It’s called the Coddling of the American Mind by Jonathan Haidt. It’s got this amazing line in it. ‘Are you preparing your kid for the road or are you preparing it the road for your kid?’ We know we can’t prepare the road for the kid because we don’t know what the road looks like. You can’t prepare it. It’s impossible. So you have to prepare the child. You have to prepare the child and you. Where we blow this is that our kids’ failures are our failures. That their sucking at soccer is us or their bad great at school. So what did we do? We stopped keeping score and we stopped giving them grades. You’re child’s four, I don’t know how many sports she plays yet or if she’s into them. But let me tell you, the no scoreboard thing is terrible. It’s awful. You should see what happens. Because we have to options with the no scoreboard thing. If we don’t want to keep score, then we also have to teach our kid not to count. Because if they can count, they’re going to keep score. Since there’s not a board that says the score, they scream the score out. God forbid it’s a blowout. ‘It’s 42-2.’ Because they’re counting. If the actual 42-2 is just right on the board, they wouldn’t count.


[1:45:22] Ashley James: And rob it in each other’s faces?


[1:45:24] Eliot Marshall: No. it seems like they’re robbing it in each other’s faces when they’re screaming 42-2 but they’re not. They’re just counting. They’re just counting. It seems that they’re bragging but they’re six and they’re five so you practice what you’re learning, right? You’re learning how to count and stuff in school so that’s what you’re doing. Now, look. If you just put the scoreboard up there, they wouldn’t do it. It wouldn’t seem like bragging. They wouldn’t be screaming at each other. None of this would be going on. We could actually talk to our kids about, ‘hey Canan,’ that’s my oldest,  ‘this is how you deal with winning by that much. Hey Canan, when you’re on the other side of 42-2, I know that feels really bad. So now we’ve got some chances that we can make. So we can either quit and give up or we can try to learn how to play basketball better. Now look, I won’t even say quitting and giving up isn’t your thing because maybe you have two left hands and you can’t dribble and athletics is just not right for you. Maybe art is or maybe this is. But let’s go find what you’re great at. That’s okay. I’m find with it. We’re not quitting this season. You chose to play basketball so we’re sticking out. I get it. Not for you man. So, I know I loved basketball but that’s okay that you don’t. What are we going to do for you to be amazing? This has nothing to do with me.’ So all of this prepare your kid for the road stuff it’s all back on us. We just can’t handle our kids sucking.


[1:47:04] Ashley James: It’s robbing them of how learning through failure. It’s robbing them.


[1:47:11] Eliot Marshall: Have you learned any other way?


[1:47:13] Ashley James: No. I do not learn from success. I learn from failure and then I tweak and I go, ‘oh that worked. Okay, keep doing that.’


[1:47:20] Eliot Marshall: How’d your child learn how to walk?


[1:47:21] Ashley James: Right. A lot of wobbly.


[1:47:23] Eliot Marshall: He just failed. A lot of wobbly, right? It does this rock thing. It does shoulder to shoulder, on its back and then it can roll over. That took a couple of months. Then he or she does this thing where they start to get up on their hands and knees and they slip out. Then they do this thing where they get up on their hands and feet and they rock back and forth like they’re getting ready to crawl. They do that for a couple of weeks, right? This was my two anyway. Then they crawl and then they fall over. Then they get back up. Then they start to pick themselves up on objects like on couches. This is where things get really bad because now they’re about to be mobile. You can’t just put them down anymore. They won’t be in the same spot when you get back. Then they start crawling or walking along a couch. Then they get really brave. They get really, really brave. They let go of the couch and then what happens? They fall. It doesn’t stop them. Somewhere along the line we do something to them that stops them with their learning that they think that this doing poorly is really, really bad. It’s just not. It’s just a lesson. Man, sometimes you got to say, ‘Hey Johnny, that wasn’t good.’ You cannot say, ‘Johnny, that wasn’t good,’ and then walk away from them. You have to say, ‘Johnny, that’s not good. I’m going to be here with you until we figure out either how to make it good or how to change directions. But I’m not leaving you. I’ll never leave you. So let’s do this. Which one?’



[1:49:08] Ashley James: I love it. I love it. Own failure. Be excite about it so we can learn it. Learn from it and grow from it and be willing to push ourselves outside of our comfort zones to be okay with the failure. I know it sounds cliché, but it’s like that is the most joy you’re going to get. I played softball and our team came in dead last. I mean I don’t think we won any games. I look back at that so fondly. I had so much fun. We just tried our hardest, you know. We weren’t crying. We weren’t butt hurt. We were hitting the balls as much as we could and running as fast as we could. We just really sucked and that’s okay. I look back on the times I played softball and I had so much fun. I noticed I was a bit better at the end of the season, right? If we probably kept going year after year we would’ve improved. It’s okay. It’s okay to not be perfect. It’s okay to burn something in the kitchen. It’s okay to not be able to run the marathon.


[1:50:27] Eliot Marshall: Then there’s Tiger Woods, right. There’s Tiger Woods who had an overbearing dad who pushed him into this. I’m reading this chapters in Stillness. His dad was intense. There’s a Tiger Woods chapter. I mean his dad in his swing while he was swinging he would through change at him and hit him with things. He called him a little n word. ‘You little n word.’ He made Tiger into this stone cold killer that Tiger Woods became. But it wasn’t enough. It wasn’t enough. Tiger is probably the best golfer that’s ever played. He’s for sure made the most money and what happened? It just fell apart. It fell apart. How did he get it back? Because he just got it back in the masters this year, right. He went a decade without winning a major. What changed? He changed. He started to love people. He started to love the crowd. He used to hate the crowd. Hate them. Hated the other players on tour because that’s what his dad made him into being. Then he saw how wrong it was. He reconciled with his ex-wife. I don’t mean reconciled like they’re back together. They’re not back together. They’re able to co-parent, which is what’s more important than that, right? That’s the biggest thing that that guy has to fix. That relationship with his ex-wife so that they could actually be good parents together. Because there’s going to be times, who’s going to be at the graduation? Mommy or daddy? Man, that’s awful for a child. That’s what he fixed. I mean this story to me is one of the most amazing stories there is. Then he was able to come back. He was able to do what he did at the masters. Look at what it did for us. It’s the first time since September, since 9/11, right? Since 2001 that every single person watching something agreed. On Sunday, everyone wanted Tiger to win. That’s what was amazing. Because damn, we love a success story. We love the success story of Tiger. But man, do we love even more to watch someone fall and then rise again. That’s the Jesus story. We love it. We eat it up. We love to watch it come true, He couldn’t have done that without totally breaking himself down. That’s what he have to do. Then look what it did for us. It was amazing. People that don’t even like golf were sitting in bars watching Tiger Woods cheered like they’ve been cheering for him since 1997. Because it’s amazing. It gave you some hope that as a 40-year-old that you could reinvent yourself. That it’s not over.


[1:53:59] Ashley James: Brilliant. It’s never over.


[1:54:02] Eliot Marshall: It’s over when the dirt comes on top. My eyes closed.


[1:54:08] Ashley James: When they put you in the ground, then it’s over.


[1:54:09] Eliot Marshall: It’s over you know. Until that point, we need to thank the people that came before us and live for the people that our coming with us. For me, I just did something that was really interesting. Like I said, my grandparents survived the holocaust but I’m not religious. If you ask me what I am, I’m Jewish because of them, because of their suffering. Last Wednesday was Yom Kippur and you’re supposed to fast on Yom Kippur. I’ve never fasted before. But man, I felt the need to fast and I’m going to fast every year on Yom Kippur until it ends and it’s for them. It’s to pass on my family’s tradition. I told this to all of my students, I told all my students on Tuesday night because it was Tuesday night to Wednesday night. I said, ‘look guys, I’m going to fast tomorrow because my grandparents survived the camps. What happened to my grandfather while in the camps, he swore that when Hitler came, I know we started with this, that his family was always going to get out. He was going to make it so that we would be okay. His blood would always be okay. That man saw everyone die. Like when the ghettos were raided, that was it. That was the last time he saw any of his family. He had nine brothers and sisters, a mom and dad, everything. That was done. That was the last. It was over. He then saw his wife die before him. His oldest child, my uncle died before he died. Then he died finally. So the blood that he didn’t see die was my mom and me and my sister. I can remember my whole life, he just wanted me to do something like financially secure. Do this, do this, right? Like so that I could be be my own boss. He fought me the whole way in this martial arts thing. I always said I was going to open my own martial arts school. He fought me the whole way. Then, when he was dying, I went and took my oldest son because my oldest son was a baby at the time and I took him to see him. So that he could see him before he died. He got to meet him. My wife took my baby and left. It was super obvious that this was going to be it. This was going to be the last time that I saw my grandfather. We started crying, my mom started crying. He looked to my mom and he said, “Just give him whatever he wants. Give him whatever he wants when he wants it.” So, he died with a little bit of money on him, look, just like a little bit. What it did was that my mom did it. My mom gave me that money and that’s what opened my first school to let me buy into that school. I don’t have anything in my life without that, without his sacrifice. Without his whatever it is that he did. So, I’m going too fast. I’m not fasting every year because I believe in any of that stuff. I’m fasting for them. Again, it comes back to people. Help people and pass it along. Because what he did for me, I can’t pay that back, right? I can’t pay that back. It goes back to everything that we were talking about, right? That terribleness of the concentration camps. What it lead to was this amazingness that I have with my jiu-jitsu schools. That’s what ended up saving my life, right? That’s what saved my life when it went dark for me. The awfulness. So, when we talk about the holocaust and things like that. We’re talking about ownership. He just said, ‘look, of course it’s not his fault.’ He’s going to make it so that nobody, his blood doesn’t ever have to deal with this again. Now I get to have this amazing thing that I have. This community of martial arts. It’s more than a community of martial arts. It’s a community of family where man, I get to employ my best friends. They don’t have jobs, they have careers. They have careers. They’re never going to go do anything else unless they want to. They’re going to be able to take care of their families, you know. That’s all because of this awful thing that was the holocaust. That’s why all of this happens. So, for me a little bit of suffering and a little bit of sitting back, realizing that one day a year, I can handle that.


[1:59:03] Ashley James: You said you can’t pay him back but you can pay it forward


[1:59:06] Eliot Marshall: The only thing I can do is try to make more people be as lucky as I was from that moment. Everyone that comes in contact with me, I just want them to be so lucky. I want them to be like, ‘God man, I’m going to find my power.’ Because look, from the holocaust to here. You can draw the line. You can draw the line of my family from one of the most awful things that’s ever happened in the history of the world to where we are today. To where I am today. It’s a straight line. You don’t even have to make a turn.


[1:59:43] Ashley James: I love it. That’s brilliant. Thank you so much Eliot Marshal for coming on the show today and sharing some sage, sage wisdom with us. It’s been a real pleasure hanging out with you today. You’ve given us a lot to chew on.


[2:00:02] Eliot Marshall: Just hey, you can do it. You can do it. If you’re one of the ones suffering, just know you’re not alone. If you’re not one of the ones suffering, go make someone’s life better. Just watch what happens. Don’t worry about your life. If you’re not suffering, then man, your life’s doing pretty good. So go make someone else’s life better and then now we’re talking. Thank you so much. I mean, I love this two-hour thing because we got to really talk.


[2:00:39] Ashley James: Yes. Awesome. It’s such a pleasure having you on the show Eliot. You’re welcome back anytime. This was great. Of course the links to everything Eliot Marshal does, his books and his podcasts are all going to be in the show notes of today’s podcast, Eliot, is there anything that you’d like to say to wrap up today’s interview? Any final homework that you want to give us.


[2:00:56] Eliot Marshall: I would like you to give me some homework. Is that okay?


[2:01:00] Ashley James: Oh my gosh, I have homework for you. Are you ready it?


[2:01:02] Eliot Marshall: Yeah.


[2:01:03] Ashley James: I was going to do it when we’re done recording. I’m going to hook you up with my friend Forrest Knutson. His website is That Yogi Guy. He has a ton of videos on YouTube. Really entertaining because he wants to obviously people to actually watch them. So, he makes this entertaining videos teaching create yoga, which is again not stretchy yoga but like mind stretchy yoga. So, I’m going to hook you up with Forrest. You should chat with him. He loves teaching people how to make meditation even deeper and fast and even better at it. Then I’m going to put you in touch with some of my content for eliminating anxiety because these tools, these neurolinguistic programming tools are outstanding when it comes to just bending the mind so it focuses on what you want instead of what you don’t want to get to the root cause of anxiety. The last thing I was going to turn you on to, because a lot of people get really good results with this, I’m sure you take supplements and all that. Magnesium is the most important mineral in the body for everything. It has 1,800 processes, enzymatic processes they’ve figured out that the body needs magnesium for. So it’s more important than calcium but when we’re deficient in it, which a lot of people are, we actually can have physical anxiety and be in stress response easier. You talked about sleep. People who use this magnesium noticed better sleep, deeper, more restful sleep. So people who are deficient magnesium, I mean it’s over 200 symptoms of magnesium deficiency but sleep problems is one of them. Anxiety is another. So, it’s really hard to get enough magnesium orally because of how the gut works. It just goes out the other end really quickly. So, IV has been sort of the best way but no one’s going to go into a doctor’s office every week and like go get intravenous magnesium. That’s just not economical. The other way is this concentrated liquid from the Zechstein Sea in Scandinavia that contains not only magnesium in its most absorbable form for the body, but also other co-factors. So, you take this concentrate and you put it in a little water and put your feet in it. You soak for an hour and you could be like doing a podcast right now with your feet soaking. I always do it when I’m doing something else too. I’m in the desk or I soak when I’m in the sauna. It’s not like you’re sitting there going, ‘darn, I have to soak and I have nothing else to do.’ That doesn’t ever have to happen. You could always do it while you’re doing something.


[2:03:47] Eliot Marshall: We don’t live in that world anymore.


[2:03:48] Ashley James: We don’t live in that world, no. People have done, it’s thousands of people, have done the blood test called the magnesium RBC test where they their magnesium before and after 30 days soak challenge. Their magnesium goes up to healthy levels. So they’ve done all kinds of test on it. But it’s really, really cool. So, I’m going to hook you up with the magnesium soak that I love. 3, Bowen, who I’ve had on the show several times, created it after she was 78 pounds, having 30 seizures a day in a wheelchair. She tells her story. It’s really amazing. Magnesium was a major major part of her recovery. That’s why she created the company. The company she was sourcing from, they started their quality went down so she decided to make her own. So, she gets it from the Zechstein Sea. She sells it in liquid form, not in the flake. People go, ‘You could save money by using flakes.’ It’s not the same. They’ve chemically processed it. They’ve taken a lot of the co-factors out. It does not raise magnesium RBC levels the same. So people get a really, really positive difference. So, I’m going to hook you up with Kristen Bowen. Her website is That’s a mouthful.


[2:05:00] Eliot Marshall: Now, it’s okay. I’m stoked too. I’m stoked


[2:05:02] Ashley James: The listeners get a discount, LTH, gets the discount. I’m going to make sure. I’m going to send an email and hook you up with Forrest and hook you up with Kristen Bowen. Then I’ll send you some links for the free you anxiety. I have some interviews where I teach some of my stuff. Anyone listening that wants to know for more information, Forrest Knutson who’s an amazing meditator. He’s The magnesium soak, I’m totally, totally obsessed with. I’ve been doing it over a year. My son for example, they’re hyper. They’re three years old, right. He was three years old at the time. He’d always fight us to go to sleep. He’s an Aries if you know astrology. He’s just like, he’s all about being in the now and being awake 24/7. We put him through the magnesium soak in his bath. It’s not like he knew. It’s a blind test. He didn’t know we put it in his bath. He started to tell us he was ready for bed. He’s like, ‘I’m ready. Could we go read some books? I’m ready for bed.’ We’re like, ‘what?’ So it really, really works. A lot of my listeners said it really helped. So, that’s, coupon code LTH. The third thins is on my website, there’s a tab at the top that says, Anxiety or Free Your Anxiety or you can type anxiety into the search bar. You can get all my episodes where I teach. Then I have a class. It’s only a few hundred dollars where I teach 21 lessons between 30 and 45 minutes long, 21 of them. It’s just like for a few hundred dollars. It’s everything I’ve taught since 2005 with all of my clients who have amazing success with eliminating anxiety. So, those are my three pieces of homework I’m going to send you some emails.


[2:06:53] Eliot Marshall: I appreciate it. I was going to ask for it. I wanted to bring it up that way. Yes, I do take Lexapro. I’m trying to come off of it. We talked about it beforehand. I’m just trying to come off of it just to see what the work that I’ve done over the last three years has been like. Just a test.


[2:07:12] Ashley James: Test yourself and go. How far have I come?


[2:07:15] Eliot Marshall: Maybe the Lexapro allows me to really go far. That’s okay too. I’m okay with going back on in I have to. So I’m kind of in the middle of it. It’s not the most comfortable thing because there are some definite side effects to it. I would like to still keep going for a little bit and keep challenging. We talked about it offline but I think it’s really important for people to know online too. You are not suffering alone. Whatever you do, there’s this huge stigma around SSRIs and things like that. If you need you need it.


[2:07:50] Ashley James: It’s better to be on it and be alive and be thriving than to not be on it and to like go somewhere very dark.


[2:08:00] Eliot Marshall: We only get one chance at this beautiful thing that we call life. Man, to go through it. Yes, I do love suffering, but to go through it truly suffering like fighting everyday just to be alive. That’s not living guys. So, if you need help, get help. Please, in whatever way you need to. Thank you for the homework. I appreciate that.



[2:08:26] Ashley James: Awesome. Well Eliot, it’s going to be fun having you on the show in a year or two. You can let us know the follow up. How has it been? I like doing that with guests where they come back and they share like, ‘all right. Well I got off that med and this is what happened then. Then I wrote my book.’ Whatever. You’re going to share the updates because we’re never done learning.


[2:08:48] Eliot Marshall: Maybe I won’t be off.


[2:08:49] Ashley James: Maybe you won’t be off.


[2:08:51] Eliot Marshall: Maybe I won’t be off. That would be okay too. There’s no attachment to that, right? Everyone’s truth isn’t the same. So it’s going to be okay either way.


[2:09:04] Ashley James: I want to hear the update to your continuous journey because you’re constantly striving to grow. So, that’s always going to be an adventure to have you back.


[2:09:13] Eliot Marshall: Are you on Instagram Ashley?


[2:09:14] Ashley James: @learntruehealth


[2:09:18] Eliot Marshall: @learntruehealth. I’m going to follow you in a second. Oh man, I really enjoyed this. Thank you very much.


[2:09:25] Ashley James: Awesome. Thank you. It’s been such a pleasure having you on the show today and can’t wait to keep in touch with you and have you back on the show and have you share your continuous journey with us.


[2:09:38] Eliot Marshall: Sounds great Ashley. Have a great night.


[2:09:40] Outro: Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition? And how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity. Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business and support people in their success? Do you love helping people?

You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program. And it really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over a hundred dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition. But from a standpoint of how we can help people to shift their life and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health. I definitely recommend you check them out. You can Google Institute for Integrative Nutrition or IIN and give them a call. Or you can go to and you can receive a free module of their training to check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in. Be sure to mention my name Ashley James and the Learn True Health podcast because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program. And I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information.

We need more health coaches. In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctors’ offices, you can work in hospitals. You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help your local schools shift their programs to help children be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success and their health goals. There are so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach.

So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. Mention my name, get the best deal. Give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month. So you’re going to want to call them now and check it out. And if you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.

Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price? For high-quality supplements and to talk to someone about what supplements are best for you, go to and one of our fantastic true health coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are the highest quality and the best price. That’s That’s Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program.

Get Connected With Eliot Marshall!







Book by Eliot Marshall

The Gospel Of Fire

Recommended Reading

The Obstacle Is The Way by Ryan Holiday



Oct 15, 2019

Listen to all past episodes with Eric Thorton:



Microdosing Psilocybin Mushrooms Therapy



  • Microdosing psilocybin mushrooms for healing wounds and trauma unresolved by therapy
  • Where to find a doctor that support psilocybin mushrooms
  • Where to buy psilocybin mushrooms
  • Psilocybin mushrooms is not legal in every state or country
  • Factors to consider in using mushroom
  • Microdosing psilocybin reduces bipolar disorder and schizophrenia
  • Predatory energy
  • Looking at food and nutrients from a different perspective
  • Natural healing starts and will be with you for the rest of your life
  • Corporate thought forms
  • How important food is to our brain


In this episode, Eric Thorton will share with us today about microdosing psilocybin mushrooms and how it helps the body to heal physically, mentally, and emotionally. We will also discuss where to find doctors who support these mushrooms and where to find them.


[0:00] Intro: Hello, true health seekers. And welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health podcast. Today we have back on the show Eric Thorton. He has been a repeat guest. What an interesting, interesting guest he is. If you haven't heard of my episodes with Eric Thorton, I urge you to go back and listen to them. You can find all of them easily by going to and typing in Eric Thornton. And all of the episodes that we've been in will pop up on my website.

You may never have been to my website,, because most people do listen to the podcast through their podcast app. So gives you a lot of resources that you don't have access to when you listen through any of your podcast apps. So you can you can keep listening to your podcast app but be sure to check out because we transcribe our episodes now. We've been doing that for the last few months. Thank you so much to the transcriptionist listening to this right now and typing everything I say. I am truly grateful. It takes a lot of work to transcribe our episodes. But because so many of the listeners kept telling me that they would listen to episodes two or three times and take notes so that they could implement all of the wonderful learnings. I just knew that it would be helpful to you if we transcribed. So please go to and take advantage of the fact that we transcribed the episodes.

Also, there's some great resources there. I created a seven day course, a free course with Naturopaths that I just love. We filmed that here at our house and put those videos together for you. They're wonderful foundations of health videos. And it's all free. It teaches you some great information. And that is right on the front page so sign up for that.  Lots of great goodies on my website so check it out.

And you'll want to get on my email list because some time very soon I'm going to be launching a new program that will support you in your health in such a wonderful way. You're going to love it. And your whole family will love it as well. It's going to be just - I want to tell you more but I'm going to wait until we get closer to launch before I tell you. So this is just a little Easter egg right now letting you know that something really exciting is around the corner. And I can barely contain myself. And since you love this show, you're going to absolutely love it. I'm very excited to launch it for you.

So join the Facebook Group. Come join the Learn True Health Facebook Group for updates. Follow us on Instagram, Learn True Health, @learntruehealth. Follow us on Facebook. And also join the email list, go to and join the email list so that you can get updates when really cool things happen. I will let you know. Including the very exciting program I'm about to launch for you.

Enjoy today's interview. It's such a unique topic. It's so cool to explore these wonderful, unique perspectives. Thank you so much for being a listener. And thank you so much for sharing these episodes. And I have a feeling you're going to be sharing this episode with someone because it's quite interesting and remarkable. This concept of microdosing psilocybin mushrooms to be able to heal mentally and emotionally. And so we explore all that in today's interview.

Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I'm your host, Ashley James. This is Episode 386.

We're back here with Eric Thorton. We were able to figure out the audio issues from the last episode. So today we're sounding so much better than last time.



[3:52] Eric Thorton: Great to be here.



[3:53] Ashley James: Yeah. Great for me to be here, too, in your healing studio here in Cottage Lake, Washington. It is always a pleasure to be here and join you for another very interesting interview. And today is going to be -



[4:06] Eric Thorton: A little out of this world.



[4:10] Ashley James: A little out there, man. A little out there. When you first shared with me that clients of yours are using small doses - microdoses -



[4:19] Eric Thorton: Microdoses, yes.



[4:20] Ashley James: - of the psilocybin mushrooms. Psilocybin mushrooms, the psychedelic or magic mushrooms but microdoses under the care of a physician that they're having outstanding results in healing deep trauma - deep wounds and wounds and trauma that were unable to be resolved in any other therapy.



[4:49] Eric Thorton: Including here.



[4:50] Ashley James: And so your guides shared with you, right?



[4:54] Eric Thorton: Yes, I did.



[4:54] Ashley James: So yeah, I'd love for you to just kind of take us back to that moment when your guides first said, "Hey man. You need to do some shrooms."



[5:03] Eric Thorton: First of all, I've never done shrooms. So I was a little shocked. But I was working with a client who had done shrooms, just sitting talking with the client. And the guide to go, "You need to do that." And I literally - I was like - so they call that gobsmacked. I was speechless. It got me like, "Really?" And they go, "Yes. That will really help you out. You have some deep stuff that you've seen but you can't get to." And I go, "Okay. So if you recommended it." So then I found out the procedures and finding a doctor that did this and went to him. And we did this microdosing. I had five major breakthroughs, major breakthroughs, including one where I got - my little brother died when I was eight and I lost all my memory of that. I stuffed the memory so it was less painful. And so I didn't have any of the memories from eight backward. And they all came back to me. Every single memory. Including down to, literally, the smell of things. And it's all there. I can access any moment at any time. I was - I guess the word I used earlier, I was gobsmacked with that too. So anyway, so then I mentioned it and clients started to go, "Oh, yeah. Done that. Done that." I can find places and do their thing. Some recommended the doctor.



[6:35] Ashley James: When you said find places and do the thing, what do you mean by that?



[6:39] Eric Thorton: There are persons on their own. They can - I recommend the doctor and they've found places to get the doctor recommendation go to them. And then they found other places to buy the psilocybin in microdosing amount.



[6:57] Ashley James: So like Colorado where it's legal now, and Canada. Many of the states and many countries, it's not illegal even in micro doses. So we're having a hypothetical conversation right now because we are talking about a controlled substance for many listeners. We're depending on where they're located.



[7:16]  Eric Thorton: And I can't recommend that. I can recommend the doctor. But I can't recommend illicit activity. 



[7:25] Ashley James: Right. And the doctor you worked with is really going out there on a limb because he's working with a controlled substance.



[7:32] Eric Thorton: Yes. And in Washington State they - and Oregon, I understand, they're trying to pass that it can be used in therapeutic situations. Because as you've read, the FDA is studying them.



[7:45] Ashley James: Right. I have it up on my phone right now. About a year ago, the FDA approves magic mushrooms, the psilocybin therapy trial for treatment resistant depression. And there's tons of trials. That's just one of them that I wanted to quote because if you're doing microdoses, it's not like a street drug where your intention isn't to get high.



[8:05] Eric Thorton: Correct. You do it, actually, it's recommended that you take the microdose right before bed. Not when you're awake. And then the breakthroughs, sometimes they can come to you in a dream. But they usually happen a day or two, a week, or a month later. My last one was three months after I was done with the microdosing.



[8:30] Ashley James: That's amazing.



[8:30] Eric Thorton: It is. It's absolutely phenomenal. But all the things that I've noticed with clients who found their own route with that, it woke up past life for me. And I've done it and I facilitated that. And one client she said, it changed her personality completely. She was an anxious person all the time. Couldn't get out of it. And she's not now.



[9:02] Ashley James: So I did shrooms twice when I was a teenager. Right?



[9:07] Eric Thorton: That's two more times than I did it.



[9:10] Ashley James: For me, I mean, it was the point - it was with a bunch of friends. It was New Year's. The first time, I went over a friend's house and he's like, "Hey, I got these fun things to munch on." And then we watched some scary movies. And then I was super duper afraid. I think it was like [inaudible 00:09:29] was one of the movies. It was really scary. And then I went to bed and I was really grateful the movie was over. And that's it. But the whole point was to get high. And then the second time was we drink mushroom tea at New Year's, like 1996 or something. And that was, again - and that was a really positive experience. We all just hung out and laughed. And for me, that was a much better experience than a bunch of us getting really drunk. Because  I never liked alcohol. So you know, I felt like much more in control. But everything was just very pleasurable. But when you're doing the doses intended to get you high or hallucinate, do they still have the emotional breakthroughs or the emotional breakthroughs only happen in microdoses?



[10:19] Eric Thorton: Well, the emotional breakthroughs - there's several things that come into play here. One, you mentioned you did it when you were a kid. So someone went out and picked mushrooms. Well, that's a fresh mushroom. And it's inconsistent with the amount of psilocybin in it. There's many different types. In fact, all mushrooms have psilocybin in it. And fact is, it's recommended by the people I work with to cook even [inaudible 00:10:49] before you eat them because heat kills the psilocybin. So your psilocybin tea, you hardly have any psilocybin in it because the heat - it was hot water they put on mushroom, kills the psilocybin.



[11:04] Ashley James: And maybe that's why the second time was more enjoyable because it was -



[11:08] Eric Thorton: Because it was a smaller dose. And then there is of the types that you can find in nature. Ones that will kill you. And there's ones that I understand that's been my experience with clients, too, there's ones when you touch them, they give you a purple color. And when you touch them, they give you a black color. Well, they're both used to get high. But the ones that are with the black color are more for medical therapy. From what I was been told and my research online for things like Parkinson's and that type of therapy. Were the ones with the purple color, when they're fresh, are the ones used for psychological therapy. And now, I am not quoting anybody that's just been my experience.



[12:00] Ashley James: Right. Well, there's many kinds of mushrooms.



[12:04] Eric Thorton: And you can die from mushrooms.



[12:05] Ashley James: Oh, absolutely. If you go out and you start picking mushrooms -



[12:09] Eric Thorton: Right. So this is not for any endorsement of going out and picking mushrooms.



[12:13] Ashley James: Right. Unless you know what you're doing.



[12:15] Eric Thorton: Even then, your mushrooms are inconsistent. And so with the microdosing, they test the amount of psilocybin in naturally dried mushrooms. And then they grind it up to get the right amount in it for the medicinal side in the capsule. And so it's scientific. So you get the certain amount of psilocybin with every single dose. And when you go and you just take a fresh one, you don't know how much you're getting. So I have noticed, I have one client who found their way - God only knows - got ones with the black. And that, what I've noticed, causes the brain a lot of problems for a long period of time. And she noticed that too.



[13:05] Ashley James: What do you mean by problems?



[13:06] Eric Thorton: It caused her actually more anxiety.



[13:09] Ashley James: So there are side effects.



[13:10] Eric Thorton: There are side effects, right. And it caused her body feeling neurological problems. And found she got it from some weird source. And I just went, "What did you take?" Because they were showing me she was taking the wrong thing. And it's caused her problems. So we've been working with that.



[13:32] Ashley James: So your guide showed you that she was taking the wrong one.



[13:34] Eric Thorton: Yes. Right. And I didn't know the difference at the time.



[13:39] Ashley James: I wonder if there was mold. Like, if there's some kind of contamination. Was it the mushroom itself that was just not the right one for her? Was it contamination that was harming her?



[13:48] Eric Thorton: That, I can't answer. I have no idea. As the guide just said she took the wrong one. She didn't get microtherapy. She went and she got some from a person who grows them for his Parkinson's disease. And it was like, that's uncontrolled. There's no science in that. There's no measuring the amount. There's no looking for toxins in it. It's just picking it and putting it in your mouth. And that's not really - to me, that's not really a safe practice in any way, shape, or form.



[14:23] Ashley James: Right. My husband, the man sitting beside me right now - he's waving at you guys by the way. He's smiling and waving and nodding at the microphone.



[14:33] Eric Thorton: With a knowing in his eyes.



[14:34] Ashley James: He's very kindly saying hello with his eyes. He's shy. And you were just saying about when you were a kid, you'd go to Marymoor Park with your dad to do cycling and that you'd see all kinds of people picking mushrooms. And this is a big park in Redmond, Washington. And then, Eric, you mentioned that psilocybin -



[15:01] Eric Thorton: Psilocybin mushrooms, as far as the ones that you would use in therapy, grow - my understanding - is they grow where there are people. They don't just grow out in the middle of the woods where there's no people. Now, there could be many factors for that, like, you know, they grow if you have cows. They like cow pies. When there's people and herd of cows. So there could be reasons for that, that they like that type of an environment. And they're usually out in the open. They're not in the deep woods, the type that you would use for that. But I've never picked them. I've just been told and read that they grow where there's people because they're for people. They're designed for people.



[15:46] Ashley James: It's a beautiful metaphor.



[15:44] Eric Thorton: It's a beautiful metaphor, correct.



[15:47] Ashley James: Regardless of whether it's true or not, it's a beautiful metaphor. Because I've heard this from several experts that when you find a poison in the woods - so you come across a plant that would harm you - that nearby is the cure. That nature is in such balance that for animals and humans - us being also animals - that wherever there's a poison, nearby is the cure.



[16:12] Eric Thorton: That's [inaudible 00:16:12].



[16:14] Ashley James: Yeah. So the thought that these mushrooms that can actually help us heal anxiety and heal trauma from our past and allow us to access memories to work through them with a professional that these mushrooms grow near us.



[16:31] Eric Thorton: Right. So my sons found them in the front yard at certain years. I'm going, "Why only certain years?" You know, I don't know enough about the taxonomy of mushrooms to understand when they grow and when they don't.



[16:47] Ashley James: Or they're sensing your stress levels.



[16:50] Eric Thorton: Maybe.



[16:53] Ashley James: "Eric really needs these. Let's grow in the front yard."



[16:58] Eric Thorton: I've never done them recreationally. But mushrooms, from what I've seen with my clients, it gets into places that the conscious and current personality of the individual will not allow them to go. Period. End of subject. as far as normal healing, normal psychotherapy, and things like that. That's why the FDA is doing the research on anxiety. Because it allows the body to go there. And then you go with someone that can help you work through it, do the energetic work with it, and it's amazing what takes place. And I've noticed with the clients I've worked with, that they'll get effect without the work here that we do. But then we go in and get into this amazing spaces for these people to change who they are just almost overnight out of the issues that they have found detrimental.



[18:11] Ashley James: I wonder if the microdosing of the psilocybin affects neuroplasticity. So neuroplasticity being - for those who don't know - it's like if you've done a habit, if you've done a pattern in your life, whether it's an avoidance pattern or whether it's anxiety or depression, you do a pattern. Every time you do a pattern, the neurons in the brain wire in that way deeper and deeper and deeper. And it's harder and harder to break that old habit. Like someone who's smoked cigarettes for 40 years versus someone who just took up smoking can quit. They haven't ingrained the habits into their neurology on a deep level versus someone who smoked for 40 years. It's like part of who they are.



[18:57] Eric Thorton: Well, that's the mechanism. I guess they're trying to find it with the research. But it's got to be something like that. It's never really been looked at. The guys right now are semi-affirming. So you're on the right track.



[19:08] Ashley James: I feel like the word is neuroplasticity. That it's -



[19:12] Eric Thorton: So it allows access. So that would be allowing access to the neuroplasticity to get that to change. And they create a better environment for the changing of those things. That would make sense. It would have to be researched. And that type of thing, you could probably seen SPECT scans and such within the brain.



[19:30] Ashley James: Right. Did the guides have anything they want to share about this therapy or about this topic?



[19:37] Eric Thorton: I don't know how to answer that. Because I asked them questions and they affirmed we're not.



[19:41] Ashley James: Right. I know it's kind of like handing the mic off to the guides, "Here, just talk."



[19:45] Eric Thorton: They don't do that.



[19:46] Ashley James: They don't do that.



[19:47] Eric Thorton: Unless I'm in deep meditation with them then we have conversations. But from this point of view, it's me ask the question. And that's why it's so important for me to be able to verbalize and understand what's going on a little bit with the client so I can ask the correct questions to the guides. And as you know as an interviewer, one question leads deeper and deeper and deeper. And that's how it works with guides.



[20:15] Ashley James: That's very cool.



[20:16] Eric Thorton: But like they said, "Yeah. You're on the right track."



[20:21] Ashley James: With the neuroplasticity.



[20:21] Eric Thorton: With the neuroplasticity.



[20:21] Ashley James: Very cool. Yes.



[20:22] Eric Thorton: So it will be interesting to see what the researchers find.



[20:26] Ashley James: Right. Right. Well, you know, I hope that the drug companies are not just trying to do all this research so they can make an artificial drug they're going to charge $1,000 a pill for.



[20:38] Eric Thorton: You bet they are going to do that.



[20:42] Ashley James: I hope we'll have access to the natural psilocybin in the microdoses. So tell me about it. So you take the one capsule -



[20:51] Eric Thorton: You take one capsule right before bed.



[20:54] Ashley James: And you go to bed. And it's, again, a microdose that they've done in a lab. They've tested it. So it's like a certain milligrams or microgram.



[21:00] Eric Thorton: So it's consistent and there's no poisons with it. There's no fungus with it. There's nothing to - the theory is, there's nothing to give you that minimizes any reaction - adverse reaction you might have. And it's controlled because it will give you the same - the 300 milligram will be consistent, or 200 milligrams or 150 milligram, capsules will be consistent throughout your therapy. Where if you just took a mushroom, put it on its scale, and it said 300 milligrams, well, that's fine. But it's not consistent to the next mushroom and the next one.



[21:37] Ashley James: Well, because you don't know how much the active constituents are in each mushroom. So you do want to have the access to the ones that have been tested and impurity.



[21:48] Eric Thorton: Purity and source. So anyway, you do this every third day, so twice a week.



[21:59] Ashley James: So when you went to bed that night, were you a little nervous?



[22:02] Eric Thorton: Yeah. I've never done - I don't do things like that. I'm just not that kind of person. And it's like, it's fine. I think it's great when people do it. Because like I've worked with people with iowaska, you know, all the other POD and rest of the other ones. I forget. But I've never done them myself. And so I was a little apprehensive. And I just woke up and I didn't even know I took anything. I had no idea.



[22:27] Ashley James: You didn't wake up in the night or have weird dreams or you feel high when you woke up?



[22:32] Eric Thorton: No, no. Not at all. And I understand if you were to, you'd be within an hour of taking the actual dose. But it's -



[22:42] Ashley James: If someone took it during the day, would they felt high or is it certain microdose that you don't?



[22:46] Eric Thorton: I had one person said he felt kind of like he had smoked a little bit of pot. He took it during the day. And that was it. There was no hallucinations. There was no nothing. You just felt a little bit aloof. But that was it. So it was my fourth dose where I actually woke up and was like, "Oh, mushrooms." And I just went back to sleep. But the breakthroughs came the next morning or the next day.



[23:23] Ashley James: So take us back to the next morning. So after the first dose -



[23:27] Eric Thorton: After the first dose -



[23:27] Ashley James: - what was your first breakthrough?



[23:29] Eric Thorton: The first breakthrough was the second dose. And that's the one where the image that was given me was - which I mentioned earlier - the eight year old. But I was in a jar. And this little eight year old was in a jar on a shelf. And he was screaming to get out. And I'm going, "What?" So then I thought - and I heard from - so I heard the instructions to open the jar and let him out.



[23:59] Ashley James: When you hear instructions from your guides.



[24:00] Eric Thorton: From my guides. Right. And I said okay. So out pops this guy and he jumps - this is a vision I'm having. And he wants to come back. So then I did EMDR [inaudible 00:24:16] and talked about it and worked it through and brought him back in with the help of the guides. I couldn't bring him back in without the help of the guides. And when he came back in, doing the therapy, and writing and journaling, and really respecting the gift, that's when all the memories were set on the back.



[24:39] Ashley James: What's EMDR?



[24:41] Eric Thorton: Eye Motor Desensitization And Realization.



[24:43] Ashley James: Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 



[24:44] Eric Thorton: These are both - their hypnotherapies. And that was where then it woke up my working with it from past life. And then I got to see, "Okay. This is what has to be done for people if they're going to do this." And I thought, "Oh, well. That's never going to happen."



[25:07] Ashley James: What? Your clients aren't going to do this?



[25:09] Eric Thorton: They're not going to do this. They're not going to come in. They've already done it, found it themselves, har about it. But people are talking about this stuff now. And then clients are doing this stuff. And all of a sudden they're showing up at my door. And I'm like, "All right. Well, there you go." And I'm just working with the after effects of their decisions. And it's phenomenal breakthroughs. And it's helping people. They're doing it for depression for the study for the government. But my understanding and from what people are telling me, it reduces bipolar and schizophrenia for up to a year so you don't have to take the medication. And it's along the lines of LSD therapy. It's the exact same therapy. And you can also - I don't want to mention this one. But there is - ecstasy is a hallucinogen. And if when it's microdosed, it can do the same thing as LSD psilocybin.



[26:20] Ashley James: Well, they're doing this in Silicon Valley. They're doing this in San Francisco, in the Bay Area. It's big. It's big in the tech world. So I'm sure they're doing it here in Seattle. It's big in the tech world to microdose LSD, microdose ecstasy, microdose mushrooms in order to expand their mental abilities. There's this 19 year old that we follow online, who has made how much millions - millions of dollars now trading cryptocurrency. And he microdosed LSD and overnight was able to understand a whole new level of how the system works and how to trade. And then he teaches it. And that these people who are like -



[27:04] Eric Thorton: He's breakthrough.



[27:05] Ashley James: Well, he had a huge breakthrough. He's a 19 year old. He's never been trained in it formally. And he basically outsmarted all these guys who, like, have PhDs in math, who were able to - they developed this software to watch how the markets work. And he just looked at it on LSD and it was like seeing the matrix. But it was a microdose. It wasn't like full on, you know. I hear these stories all the time that people are using nootropics or using some form of - hopefully naturally derived -



[27:39] Eric Thorton: Hopefully.



[27:40] Ashley James: -- substance to expand that neuroplasticity for the desire to be even better at what they do in the tech world. And be even more creative.



[27:54] Eric Thorton: You have to be part of this. You said "their desire." That's very important, is you just take it recreationally. You're not directing the wisdom of the mushroom, those are the words I've used or I've been told. There's a wisdom. And recreational, well, it's going to give you recreational wisdom. But if you're going after something and you're open to it, and you journal about it, and you set intention before you even do the microdosing, that's when you get the effects. If apparently, the mushroom - or your brain knows, I guess it would be the call to wisdom of the mushrooms, but - okay. But your brain knows what to do with it with you setting the intention. So doing it recreational, like you had done twice, versus the guy you just mentioned, he had a purpose. So he was able to open up the neuroplasticity of that part of his brain. So from my understanding is that does need to be done. There's a procedure that's done. That is being mindful, setting intention, journaling before, journaling after, getting professional feedback. And that's what I've gotten from the doctors. And then we take it a step farther.



[29:21] Ashley James: Yeah, when people come to you -



[29:22] Eric Thorton: When people come to me we can get into that. Get in deeper and change and work with and create, if there's predatory energy, for example. It's not going to allow your brain to change. And if we can get rid of that then we're going to allow it to change. If there's a part of me where we did a little soul retrieval. We had to respect what took place, the severity of why that part of me was jarred or canned, whatever. And work its way back into my life where our normal journey doesn't get there, whether we didn't get rid of the predatory energy, the pain the child had, the trauma, the predatory energy from other people that were around me at the time, et cetera. It was all there in the jar. And when you pull that back out, you have to dissect it and get it down to the exact thing that you're working with.



[30:25] Ashley James: Right. And so that's why it's so important to work with professionals like you and the doctor that - hopefully, the doctor that prescribed is also a therapist so that they're able to help you process things. But it's important for you to have that intention journal and then work with someone like you who can help to work with them on the energetic level and process it.



[30:50] Eric Thorton: Well, at least recommend - because you're setting the intention, if you want psychological changes, you should be getting whether - you should be working with somebody to help you explore those changes so you can get them and access them. So if you're just taking them and not doing anything with it, you're not going to get the depth. Period. I mean, that's the fact of anything. Looking at a book doesn't get the information in your brain from reading the book. So it that same correlation. You've done it, you're looking at the cover, "Is that nice?" Some people might like to get high from it or whatever. But you're just looking at the cover of the book. It can show all sorts of details in the picture but you're not absorbing it. And so that's where the therapist comes in. And I can help people with that or find a therapist that's going to help you explore that.

My therapist, I'm bringing the breakthroughs into therapy to see if I can squeeze out a little more even. I mean, it's a different perspective. And as you know it takes a village. And I am a firm believer in that. So why not bring in to my therapist? And the therapist just went, "Yeah. That's great." So we're bringing a little more out of each thing. Because like the child that popped out that we pulled back, he was a full person. Somebody did some more therapy lately and it was sound therapy. Which might be someone you're interested in interviewing. But he looked at that moment. I brought it to him. And he goes, "Well, there's guilt there." And I go, "Huh. I never thought of that." And he goes, "I just see guilt. I don't know what it's attached to." But he goes, "I see guilt." And he did some music with it and it brought up - because I was born with these gifts on. I looked at it and I asked my guide, I go, "The guilt of this eight year old." And they go, "Well, an eight year old doesn't have guilt." I mean, they can feel guilty but they can't be guilty. They're still innocent.



[3:14] Ashley James: Well, what about survivor's guilt? When a loved one dies, we can feel guilty that we were the ones that lived and they died.



[33:24] Eric Thorton: But an eight year old doesn't have that depth. And I look back at that and there was no guilt. And there was afterward and there was guilt from the experience and the benefits that I got from that time of him passing.



[33:44] Ashley James: You felt guilty for gaining benefit from his passing?



[33:48] Eric Thorton: Yes. But not -



[33:50] Ashley James: As an adult?



[33:50] Eric Thorton: As an adult but not as a child. But of course, other people may have felt guilty because of the situation he drowned. And I took that guilt on. Because I am a healer. And it was from close loved ones. And I saw that and it was like, "Oh." I meditated. I went to my guides. They said - and had kind of conversation. I said, "Yeah. There is guilt. But it's not your guilt. You took it on." And then I looked at that and I felt it in my body. And sure enough, and I came out of this really bad spot I have in my back. And it was like - and then the muscle started to shift and soft it up, because I have muscle spasm in a certain area of my back. And that was just three days ago. And it's like I'm sleeping much better. And bringing this to and being honest and upfront with another practitioner, his point of view allowed access because I have a more verbal connection for me to go, "Okay. What is this?" And I was able to get a yet another benefit from the mushroom therapy. I can't say enough about it as far as for what it's helped me with.



[35:32] Ashley James: But it's not a cure at all. You don't just take it and then go about your business. It opens the door and you have to walk in and you have to got to do the work.



[35:42] Eric Thorton: You have to do the work.



[35:44] Ashley James: And you are like an amazing healer. And you're going to other healers because they're getting different - they're allowing different perspectives. And the guides are just going to do everything for us. You can't just sit there and be like, "Okay. Fix me." We can't give away our free will. We have to go and live and explore and connect with other healers and the therapist and they help us to - they help us to see deeper but we've got to do the work.



[36:14] Eric Thorton: We have to do the work. You mentioned free will and this is one of those pet peeves of mine. People go, "Well, it all has to be done in free will." Of what? People go, free will of the conscious personality, free will of the subconscious personality, free will of the child personality, or free will of the soul's personality. The body wants everything level, kind, sweet, everything. We all want that. But that's not the purpose of life. The free will we're looking at is to stay within the free will of the soul. It's not the free will of the body. And at first I didn't get that until I realized just how weak the body is. The body is a tool. And it keeps going to this place of neutrality trying to achieve that. It is in that process of trying to go there that we have the learning and the wisdom. And as soon as we get there, something else goes. Because if you're in that neutral place, you're in neutral.



[37:27] Ashley James: Homeostasis.



[37:28] Eric Thorton: Homeostasis. You're not growing.



[37:28] Ashley James: It's like purgatory. You're not growing.



[37:30] Eric Thorton: Right. You're not growing. You're sitting there not growing, what's the use? The soul is here to learn. So it's the free will of the soul that we look at. And this seems to - and I promote this in everything I do, it takes a village. And so you have to be able to go and sit there innocently with people and their gifts. And even when people call in, we check to see if I can be used to help there or not within their free will. And if they're not there, I don't know. They're not there or we're not a match. It's not, they're not there. It's just we're not a match.



[38:12] Ashley James: Right. You're not like, "You're not good enough for me."



[38:15] Eric Thorton: No. Sorry. If you implied that, I mean I didn't mean to say that. Butt it's like, "No. It's just we're not a match." My gifts - why spend the money where you're not going to get the most for your buck.



[38:25] Ashley James: I really respect how you work with people. So when my listeners call in before you guys work together because you can work through Skype very effectively.



[38:38] Eric Thorton: And we are doing in person [inaudible 00:38:40].



[38:40] Ashley James: Or people can come in person if they choose to, which is also great. But you're very effective over Skype also. Because it's energy work.



[38:50] Eric Thorton: It's energy work.



[38:50] Ashley James: But it's fun to see you in person. It's fun to be here.



[38:52] Eric Thorton: It is. It's fun to work with people in person. I love it.



[38:55] Ashley James: But when they call in, you meditate and it takes - sometimes it takes a few days. And you talk to their guides. And your guides and their guides have a little [inaudible 00:39:05] with you. And you figure out if it would be in their best interests to work with you.



[39:12] Eric Thorton: Right. And it's their best interest. And remember it's the best interest of the soul. It's not the body. What the body wants is different -



[39:23] Ashley James: Homeostasis.


[39:23] Eric Thorton: -- with homeostasis. It's not what the soul needs. So we see if this perspective can help them or not. Sometimes, I guess, you would call it - they say yes, but it will be limited. And so then I tell the patient that and the client that. And because of tightly held beliefs. So sometimes they say yes. But it may be just one session. Or yes, but maybe two sessions, or no. But it's pretty rare. But once in a while they do say no. And people that call in that just want a magic bullet to make everything better, well, sometimes that happens. But most of the time it's a little work. Yeah. So like you mentioned, a friend that had done the iowaska for a number of times to help her immune system. Well, it helped her. That's terrific. And there's no one in the US that probably would have recommended that as far as a professional doctor or somebody.



[40:40] Ashley James: Right. Yeah. She went all the way to Peru. And I just published that episode. But she went all the way to Peru and had like, I think, 27 doses of iowaska. She's on the mend. And she went for - she wanted to help her body, help her immune system, help her physical body heal. And then she started seeing emotional, spiritual energetic benefits from it as well.



[41:05] Eric Thorton: Right. Well, iowaska, it helps open us up but it's more of the consciousness. Versus I have found iowaska doesn't get in the same way as microtherapy. It has it's -



[41:21] Ashley James: Microdosing.



[41:22] Eric Thorton: Microdosing. Versus the major dosing, which gives you a hallucinogenic and body high and to loosen through all your whole body. You understand. But I worked with people who've done iowaska and they can get in trouble energetically. But we can also repair that and bring it back. And even make iowaska look at those journeys and see what benefit we can pull out of those. And sometimes it's pretty amazing. Sometimes I have ran into it that the person is just a drug addict and they're substituting ayahuasca for heroin. And it's like, "Okay. Well,  that's how deep they are and that's fine." But we're not going to pull anything else out of it. But if they had strong intention when they did it - personal intention - we can pull quite a bit out of the journey that they had in South America. I woke up past life where I've done this before with people, you know, 500, 600 years ago. So it's a different story today.



[42:29] Ashley James: So you were a shaman.



[42:30] Eric Thorton: I was a healer that did iowaska [inaudible 00:42:35].



[42:35] Ashley James: In the Amazon?



[42:36] Eric Thorton: Actually, it was in what would be -



[42:41] Ashley James: Central America.  central



[42:43] Eric Thorton: Kind of central - the Amazon Basin. And I remember the past life. But I didn't - it wasn't woken up as to what I did. And part of it was for people that were bipolar, had mental issues. We did. I [inaudible 00:42:58] journey and followed them through the journey and helped them through the journey. Where today's facilitators, they call them shaman. But they're not. They're facilitators. And so because of that, it can be a bit dangerous. And so I've never recommended it. I've seen people that have done it, then we've taken it and worked with it. But I've known people that have been damaged by it as well. Because the facilitators are trained and then they're given the title shaman. And they're not born a shaman.



[43:42] Ashley James: With their gifts on.



[43:43] Eric Thorton: With their gifts on. They are people that have learned techniques. And techniques don't get in there and can't work with hallucination. They can't work. They don't see what is actually going on in that person's mind to help them. To work with them in the little fine - working with them one-on-one and being there and see what they're seeing and experiencing what they're experiencing and refining it and telling them where to go and what to do and what to reach for. That doesn't happen in South America. Which is what I used to do a long time ago, you know, hundreds of years ago, was I would sit with each individual and work with them and literally be with them in there and experiencing what they're experiencing. But fully aware and conscious. And then we maximize it for them.

That was fascinating to see that. The level I did it in the past life. And then bring that to people after they were done with the experience. Because here, that's what we have to do. It's amazing how the little - the fine tuning that can be done which is very important. And you have to have a very amazing facilitator to do that that you can trust. Because they can fine tune it according to their ego. So they have to listen so that they will hear the other person's guides and say, "Okay. What do we do with this nuance? And what do we do with this nuance?" Because otherwise, they're working out of ego and they're going to install their - and they're going to see the individual who's working their problems as a problem when it's not. It's a beginning of a journey or a breakthrough.

But the person's own experience, the facilitator would say, "Oh. That's an issue. We must get rid of that." Versus the guy goes, "No. Okay. Now, let's take it to this step or this step or this step. So it's a very different experience, that's all I'm saying. When you're working and working with it very specifically and experiencing the same thing the person is experiencing.



[45:57] Ashley James: It's kind of frustrating, many of us can't talk directly to our guides like you can. It's kind of like, "What's the point of having guides if we can't talk to them?" Like, how do they guide us if we can't talk to them?



[46:11] Eric Thorton: Well, the interesting thing is, is my guides don't guide me. They'll tell me, "Okay. Eric, you're in danger" or something like that. Which is a great tool. There's no question about that.



[46:26] Ashley James: Because of life. 



[46:27] Eric Thorton: But with my problems, my personal problems, my human problems, they don't give me the answers. Because it's the journey that you find the answers. If they give me the answers, it's just like going through to the dictionary to learn how to pronounce a word. You try it three weeks later and you can't pronounce it again. Because you've just been given the answer. There's no wisdom with it to hold it in your brain. So that's what most people want, they want to talk to their guide so they can go, "Well, can you take care of this knee pain for me." And they go, "Oh, sure." Bam. And it's done. Well, what was the purpose of the knee pain them? So they've just eliminated the purpose of your knee pain, which was growth. So guides don't do that. Things that aren't guides will, but the guides will not do that.



[47:14] Ashley James: What do you mean by things that aren't guides?



[47:16] Eric Thorton: Predatory energy. They will give you answers to things. Like I had a client that said they went to this local guru. And they met each other at this meeting. And he said, "You and you have to get married." And they went and did it. Because this guru was popular. Oh, it was a marriage made in hell. And they didn't - they just learned how to be miserable. And I was like, "That was not a guide. A guide will not tell people to get married."



[47:55] Ashley James: Right. Because that eliminates total free will of the soul.



[48:00] Eric Thorton: Free will of the soul. And it causes karma. It causes sin. I mean they had a whole bunch - a whole slew of bad experiences. And I look at bad experiences as good because if you can turn them into something good. Well, I guess it did. It taught them that everybody out there who says they're a spiritual person, they're spiritual but who are they connected to? There's no discernment out there in the new age. And that was ego. And that's one of the ways you tell is, if they're making ego based statements when you're in therapy in doing that.



[48:39] Ashley James: I imagine most healers or therapists kind of are coming from ego.



[48:46] Eric Thorton: They are. Well, that's - even I have to go through my ego to do that. So it's a tough statement to make. But something that is trying to control is an ego versus something that is not trying to control is presenting.



[49:09] Ashley James: So presenting information versus trying to control your decisions around it.



[49:13] Eric Thorton: Correct. Taking away just providing miracle after miracle after miracle after miracle. That is pleasant for the human homeostasis. But it's not good for the soul's progression. Because you're taking away the wisdom or the purpose of the pain or suffering. Instead of using it and growing from it. So then the pain and suffering becomes irrelevant. And your body gets rid of it. And it's done. And it takes a little more time but it's the level that the healing took place is permanent at that point. Because nothing's coming back. So like if you go to someone who's healing with predatory energy, they'll make the statement, like we talked about earlier, "Well, if you don't heal it, you're at fault." That's an ego statement. And you're blaming someone and you're making them feel inadequate.



[50:18] Ashley James: This was a healer that was -



[50:20] Eric Thorton: That I worked with.



[50:21] Ashley James: That you worked with that was saying that if their clients didn't heal, it was their fault.



[50:27] Eric Thorton: It was their fault. And you run into a lot of that in new age. It's, "Well, you just weren't ready for it." That's a real common statement. You're not ready yet. And it's like, "Well, that's a cop out." You're not ready yet? Well, we look at that as, "Well, why not? What's blocking it? What do we have to learn first?" If we use the term, "So that they can be ready to fix that." And that's where we're very different, is people will come in with these desires and we find a way to - I'm lead a way to get to them eventually. Sometimes it's time to deal within exactly that versus you have to come around the other way and do the homework to get to the actual thing that originally they came in for. And so it takes effort.



[51:27] Ashley James: So everyone's ready.



[51:29] Eric Thorton: Everybody's ready.



[51:31] Ashley James: Everyone's ready, it's just -



[51:32] Eric Thorton: It's just finding the pathway.



[51:32] Ashley James: Yeah. Exactly. What do you got to work on - first, it's kind of like when a sweater becomes that big ball of yarn not like, you know, whatever. I have this big image in my mind of like this impossible, not of yarn. Like, anytime we've tried to make a sweater and then the cat got into it or something. And it's just this impossible giant. It's like, what string do we pull to unravel this mess?



[51:58] Eric Thorton: What's the right one? There's a word for it, I'm forgetting what it is. But just being able to uncover that key point. And that takes effort to get there. And then once you get there, the healing that takes place is permanent. And if you can't get there, it's not going to happen. Whereas someone with predatory energy might go, "Hit the key point, impress the person, how did you know that?" And then they feel better, they get a placebo effect. And then it comes back. And that's when the new age will often go, "Oh, you weren't ready yet. It's not me. It's you, basically." And the [inaudible 00:52:45].



[52:45] Ashley James: Which is installing guilt and shame.



[52:48] Eric Thorton: Guilt and shame and the theory of original sin, that we're not good enough. And to me, I mentioned earlier, I heard someone say one day that, healers create karma so you don't want to go to a healer.



[53:06] Ashley James: Don't go to a healer because it creates karma for you to go to a healer? 



[53:10] Eric Thorton: Right. And I'm like, well, I suppose if you got some new age point of view and you could cause healer for the karma - karma for the healer or the individual, either way. If you're making statements that make a person feel bad or inadequate.



[53:30] Ashley James: The healer is putting their garbage or emotional - their emotional baggage on to the client. And the client walks away holding on to negative beliefs about themselves that the healer either installed or reinforced. Then that is creating karma. And for listeners who haven't heard Eric in past episodes, Eric has gone deep into what is karma, how to work through it, what's it purpose. And so it's not necessarily the new age version or definition of what you think karma is. It's actually - it's quite different. It's quite interesting. I definitely recommend listeners to go to and search Eric Thornton in the search bar and listen to our past episodes together. Because we've gone into -



[54:18] Eric Thorton: They kind of build on each other.



[54:19] Ashley James: Yeah, they do. They do build - each talk has built on the next one.



[54:22] Eric Thorton: Right. So we're assuming each time that you've listened to the other episodes. Even we were talking about psilocybin therapy. Well, if it's done right, it really helps. If it's done wrong or not complete - I guess wrong is not the right word. Just not a complete - you don't have someone who can really dig in there and see what's going on -



[54:51] Ashley James: So if you're just doing it on your own, you order it from Canada and you start microdosing yourself.



[54:55] Eric Thorton: Right. You start microdosing yourself and you get all these effects and then they do away Then you've just proved yourself that psilocybin doesn't work. Because you didn't do something. That's why I recommend the therapy.


[55:09] Ashley James: Right. It's like saying a key to a host doesn't work because just having the key in your pocket doesn't open the door for you and let you inside magically. So it's opening the neuroplasticity but then you actually have to go in and do the work.



[55:24] Eric Thorton: Do the work. Find the wisdom. Find what it is that happened. It can be from past life. It can be - we've literally done repairs at past life that are depths that are phenomenal. How that past life affects the current life. And we couldn't get out of it before. And we go, it's just because that person's psyche is set up that way. It's not a right or wrong thing. It's just it's set up that way. So we couldn't get in there and now we could. And that being kind and gentle and bringing that up, finessing, listening for the wisdom, listening for the who, what, when, where and why. And so the person can absorb it, experience it, identify the habits. Part of neuroplasticity is identifying those habits and going, "Oh, I'm not there anymore." Giving them an opportunity to bring in another facet of their personality that they just discovered.

So you're replacing - which is what we're doing. It's like if someone has a habit in neuroplasticity, like we talked about, they do things a certain way because they've done it that way for 10,000 times. Well, we can identify that. We can look at it. You can look at the benefits, the non-benefits, et cetera. You can see it. You can roll it around. You can play with it. But until you get in there and actually look at why the habit formed in the beginning.



[57:01] Ashley James: What is it replacing? Or what is compensating for?



[57:05] Eric Thorton: What it's compensating for. Specifically what it's compensating for so you can recognize it inside of you, where are you finding it in your body. Recognize, we actually give you the words. And we go - we've done a little bit with you dusty. It's like we've given you a new place to go with the issue you have so that you can go, "Oh, there's the old issue. And this is the new habit." So it's the same type of thing. You have to dig back to find the old issue. Then you have to find what the guide say would replace it. And then you identify it and then you are in free will. Changing your free will of the body, the consciousness, and the soul.



[57:54] Ashley James: Can you give us an example of someone you've worked with that before they had the psilocybin and then something specific they're working on. Then after the psilocybin. Can you think of a client? Obviously, don't share their name. But think of something like they were able to resolve those habits.



[58:15] Eric Thorton: I had one client that had an issue came up and they called it gluttony. And I've had that for several people. And it's ,like, we saw where it came from, where the habit started. And what specifically triggers that emotional response in that person's brain. Now, we've gone back prior to that experience with them and with that. And we're able to look at it and see it. But we're not able to go there. So we've been -



[58:53] Ashley James: What do you mean by not able to go there?



[58:53] Eric Thorton: Well, we didn't get down to the very, very specific incident combined with this person, combined with a series of instances from past life. When they starved to death in a past life. Another one they were with a - I'm trying to remember here - with an extremely controlling situation where they were rationed food. And then in this life when they were an infant, they were left to be a little more hungry. And so when they were an infant, it triggered the past lives. Not even - they consciously remember it. It triggered the past lives and it formed this subconscious energy which they called gluttony. Because of the reaction to hunger from past lives in this life. Well, prior to that, we could see that mom wasn't really consistent with feeding the baby. And I could see that something from past life was there. But the guides - as I could see the distance. But the guides will say, "No. We're not there yet."



[1:00:18] Ashley James: And then after doing the microdosing psilocybin that person was ready to go there?



[1:00:28] Eric Thorton: And that person went there on their own and saw that experience. And then before they could go, "Yeah. My mom's ADD and blah, blah, blah." But they actually went there and they experienced it.  And it opened that porthole up. So when we came here, we saw the experience again. And then the connection to it and what tripped it for this major thing that happened when they were an infant, what tripped it. And that was the past life experience. And it brought forward frequency that allowed predatory energy into it. And that's when it majorly took on a role in that person's life. And they couldn't control their eating.



[1:01:09] Ashley James: So how long ago did you work with this person, weeks or months ago?



[1:01:15] Eric Thorton: That was four months ago.



[1:01:16]  Ashley James: And so you were able to go there with them, heal that release the predatory energy.



[01:01:22] Eric Thorton: And they're slowly losing weight.



[1:01:25] Ashley James: And do they feel now in control around food? Or has it shifted overnight? Or is it a process?



[1:01:32] Eric Thorton: It shifted overnight in that they felt - their report to me was that they felt even though they were still eating, it was more of a choice now. It's the choice started naturally coming in. And they didn't fear hunger. And they realized it just started coming to them, a lot of hunger is because we're dehydrated. And they just started naturally drinking water. It was a natural healing. And it just slowly started. I mean, they're still working it. But it's slowly started, the body looking at food and nutrients from a different perspective. Instead of panic about it, it's like, "Oh, well, let's look at that."



[1:02:14] Ashley James: And maybe I could drink a glass of water. Or before it was -



[1:02:18] Eric Thorton: But they just go for the glass of water. They sit with it. They said, "Oh, that's the glutton." And now this is a healthy person. So they sit with it. And then the right thing comes to them. And it's slowly - because they're not affirming the old neural pathways. They're now going, "Okay. There's the neural pathway that was set in, that's the glutton." Versus now the neural pathway is, "Okay. Well, we're not a glutton anymore so we got time." And then they just go and get a glass of water. They don't have to think, "Okay. I got to go get a glass of water." They just go and get a glass of water. Or they'll push the food away. And they put smaller servings on their plate. And that's a natural healing.

If you're fighting it all the time, then you're not healed. So that's the amazing thing. It's just a slow shift in their perspective of food. Because they don't have to keep reaffirming the pattern that was set when they were an infant. They could look at it and go, "That's not me. That came from a combination of past life and this life from circumstances that are beyond my control for this body. And now, I can relax about it. And go, 'Okay. So what's up?'" And they slowly just make different choices. And they've lost - I think they're probably up to seven or eight pounds now with no effort at all. Well, that's a completely flip of the situation. So they're now looking at - and they literally said they can push away." Oh, I've had enough of that."



[1:03:56] Ashley James: Well, the first time I worked with you, I mean, it was major. I think we did ,like, 12 different things. It was pretty big. But you removed three pretty intense predatory energies that I had since I was nine and it was blatant for me. It was clearly blatant. I've talked about it in past episodes. But what I noticed more lately, I'm really getting that I can only eat half as much as I used to. Like, I push the plate away or I'm not going for seconds or I'm taking a smaller portion. There's a restaurant I really liked because you can be whole food plant based at this restaurant. And it's a Mongolian grill, no oil, you can say no oil. And I go and I just get an entire bowl of vegetables and then choose if I want the garlic water on it or something. And they have brown rice. And in the past, I was able to eat three bowls and be like, "Okay. Now I'm full." Now I can barely finish. It's like, one and I'm full. I'm like, "Damn. I mean, this is an all you can eat place and I'm -"



[1:05:05] Eric Thorton: I got to get more. I got to get my money's worth.



[1:05:05] Ashley James: I got to get more. I paid for it. Right. I got to get my money's worth. But I eat one bowl and I'm like, "Whoa. Okay. I'm done." That was great. One bowl of vegetables and a little bit of brown rice and I am done. And so I sat there, I was like, "What has changed?" What has changed? And the only thing that working with you and removing those predatory energies. And it's just amazing that -



[1:05:28] Eric Thorton: Well, it was the predatory energies that kept you in fear going for more or thinking that way to set off your natural regulator. And it's like yours didn't require the mushroom therapy to get there. Which I've worked with a lot of people and it doesn't require that. Just that one person that did. But it's like, "Okay. That's a natural healing." It just starts and that will be with you for the rest of your life. And if you make a choice to eat a lot more again, that's still your choice. And in the end, you can undo - you not undo. You can create a new neural pathway if you want.



[1:06:01] Ashley James: I can choose. 



[1:06:02] Eric Thorton: You can choose.



[1:06:03] Ashley James: But if when we have predatory energies, it's like --



[1:06:05] Eric Thorton: You can't choose.



[1:06:07] Ashley James: Yeah. Our choice is being hijacked.



[1:06:09]  Eric Thorton: You're being compelled, I call it.



[1:06:11] Ashley James: Right. Yeah.



[1:06:12] Eric Thorton: It's like, "No, no. You need that. Oh, gosh." You just got to.



[1:06:16] Ashley James: And I think it's funny and I mentioned it in past episodes. But I really knew I had a predatory energy when a voice in my head said, "Go eat McDonald's." I'm like, "I eat whole food based. I have eaten McDonald's in nine years or ten years." And it was like, "Chicken nuggets." I'm like, "This is not me." When there's a voice in your head that doesn't align with your personality and it doesn't align with your choices then you know.



[1:06:45] Eric Thorton: And you have something else.



[1:06:46] Ashley James: But it could mask itself for many years. And I thought it was just me. I thought it was a part of me for many years until I changed so much consciously. And that part didn't change. And that the predatory energy didn't change. But I changed so much. So I went, "Wow, that's really not me anymore." And so why is this part of me still holding on to past me?



[1:07:11] Eric Thorton: Right. And you probably done a lot of therapy around it and nothing got there. But once we removed the predatory energy, then all that therapy you'd already done clicks in. Because it's still there in your subconscious mind. And all that therapy did help also make it so you could look at that and not take three bowls. It wasn't just removing. It was the other therapy you've done as well. And so that's, again, why we call this work inclusive. Is because everything you've done prior to that moment, to work, to gain wisdom for the thing that is bothering you. That's all wisdom you got from all the other therapy. If it's just this roadblock and we remove the roadblock, and it flows.

So for someone with years in the situation similar that hadn't done any work at all, they might have had to, we go in, we'd remove the predatory energy, they'd feel the difference. Then their eating habits would come back. And as they come in again and we take the next step and we start doing the therapy that you'd already done.  We start walking through them. What is this? What is this aspect of your personality? What is this thing that's compelling you? I see you had stress here and you ate here? What did it do? Where do you feel that in your body? Get the person back in touch with their body and get in their body's wisdom. Whether maybe the therapy that you had done had gotten you to realize the body's wisdom. Got all that stuff in place. It just could take effect. So that -- sometimes we have to teach the body new wisdom because they haven't got the therapy somewhere else.



[1:09:05] Ashley James: How many of your clients have done psilocybin or other forms of microdosing? Would you say it's like a really strong percentage of your clients?



[1:09:18] Eric Thorton: No. They're very small. The microdosing is a fairly new concept with it. I've worked with hundreds of clients who've done macrodosing.



[1:09:28] Ashley James: Does the microdosing help at all?  Or like you said, it's because of the intention. Their intention was to have fun, party, get high. The intention doesn't - but the substance, the psilocybin was still there. So does that, on some level, help with neuroplasticity? Or it does only help when its microdosed or only helps when it's microdose and there's [inaudible 01:09:48]?



[1:09:48] Eric Thorton: You don't have the deep breakthroughs where you can actually change overnight major personality conflicts. And sometimes with microdose - and you can also pick up the predatory energy from people when you're in that type of state. I won't even meditate in groups. And that's conscious meditation. You're going there and you're just blowing your psyche open, your soul open.



[1:10:20] Ashley James: What about yoga? What about doing yoga and a class?



[1:10:23] Eric Thorton: Yoga is a different intention. But some yoga people do try to get meditation in with it. And you can all share energy really easy. You're comrades in arms. Any group does that. And I just mentioned comrades. The army does it. It's one big intention. To create strength with their intention.



[1:10:42] Ashley James: Churches.



[1:10:42] Eric Thorton: Churches do that.



[1:10:43]  Ashley James: Yeah. The churches I've gone to, they do a lot of like silent meditation and prayer together.



[1:10:49] Eric Thorton: In Christianity, what is the cross? And it's literally, you know, I've got that thing hanging on the wall here which nobody can see. It's a vortex. The sign of the cross is a vortex. And the Catholic Church knows that. And they even create - at Easter time, they even put the symbol around the center of the cross. The square that's turned sideways with fabric making even a stronger vortex, which is that's a whole another subject. Sorry. We'll have to explore that someday.



[1:11:24] Ashley James: You can see the gears turning in my head like a million questions.



[1:11:28] Eric Thorton: Yeah. It's like, "Okay." But what you are doing is you are blowing open this consciousness and the subconsciousness with the psilocybin uncontrolled macrodosing. And putting the person very vulnerable to the other people around them. There are things - even in my past life when I did this, it was one-on-one. We didn't do it in groups. IT was one on one.



[1:11:54] Ashley James: Right. And just remembering the iowaska interview I just did, most of the time they're doing ayahuasca in groups. And they're all having really big experiences.



[1:12:07] Eric Thorton: They're having big experiences.



[1:12:07] Ashley James: The unconscious mind is blown wide open.



[1:12:09] Eric Thorton: It is. And it's - I don't want to rank on the industry as far as people do get benefits from it. But what is - I experienced that there's a lot more that we could get out - we could wring out of those experiences in the work we do here. And I see that people will take on very predatory energies. I had one young lady and she went with a friend to be safe and they were both raped when they were under the influence. And they don't remember it but they have PTSD from it. And it's like, what are you supposed to do with that? It's become an industry down there.



[1:13:05] Ashley James: Right. Teresa said that when you go to the airport in Peru or Brazil, other places, a restaurant in the Amazon that there are "shamans" standing there at the airport holding a sign. And people will fly down and then hire the shaman right there in the airport. And that she said that they'll put additional things - additional herbs -



[1:13:30] Eric Thorton: Lots of different herbs in it.



[1:13:31] Ashley James: - just to get the person high not to have the healing experience.



[1:13:35] Eric Thorton: Right. And if they want to take advantage of them and rape them, they can put a certain herb in there and they don't remember anything. And that's the risk. There is no regulation down there. It's my understanding the government has caused this. The governments have caused it indirectly because they're requiring these tribes to put in septic systems, put in water systems, and they all cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Instead of being nomadic, they have to not be nomadic in the Amazon forest. And they have to create sanitary conditions and they don't have cash. So they've had to do this to create a cash flow. And that was where it originally started. Where they started taking it away from the masters.

I'm not going to call them shaman. You can be a shaman. Not be a master. But the words are cheap. People can throw those words around anywhere. But not the authentic masters that were born with the gifts on that didn't have to learn anything from another shaman. That's someone born. They get it. Period. And there's very few of those around the world. And so there's two masters that did this but they had to come up with cash. So then they started teaching facilitators and calling them shaman.



[1:15:00] Ashley James: Do you think - and this is getting into a conspiracy theory. But do you think that the countries in the area did it on purpose to disempower the true healings because there's no government that actually wants their citizens to be awake and to be empowered. Those governments are afraid of their citizens so they want to keep them fighting among themselves.



[1:15:29] Eric Thorton: Subdued. Right. And subdued somehow. Distracted.



[1:15:29] Ashley James: Did they do that on purpose to stop people from becoming empowered? Or was it just coincidental that that was the result?



[1:15:40] Eric Thorton: Well, I look at a lot of things with conspiracy theory. And look at it and go, "Well -" it was Dr. Lim that I was talking to. And he said, "Well, it's like with the American Medical Association. There's no one person doing anything that isn't good intention. But their perspectives, their ideas with as good intention to help their clients gets them looked at. And then someone else modifies it again with good intention. And then someone else modifies that with good intention. And then someone else modifies that with good intention. And pretty soon you get a thing that comes up as evil.



[1:16:29] Ashley James: Well, I would say like -



[1:16:30] Eric Thorton: Where it isn't one person that's doing it.



[1:16:32] Ashley James: Well, but there's an organization, let's say the pharmaceutical industry has an intention. And they say "Okay. Lobbyists go. Lobby for this."



[1:16:41] Eric Thorton: But that's a corporate intention. 



[1:16:42] Ashley James: Right. But they affect the AMA all the time.



[1:16:45] Eric Thorton: They do. But the AMA still has to - they're doing it because they want to raise money. Because a corporation is for profit. So they're going there with the idea, "Okay. Let's do the opioid thing." Well, as far as the sales people are taught, "Well, this is good for everybody."



[1:17:07] Ashley James: Oh, so you're saying it's compartmentalized.



[1:17:09] Eric Thorton: It's compartmentalize. It's not one person which creates this whole thing - conspiracy - that is to be looked at as evil. This is what people look at the United States for. It's a corporate system. The corporates are for profit. Anything they can do to make money. There's no consciousness with that. Bu to sum total, we talked about corporate consciousness. There is in the end, a corporate consciousness. We call them thought forms.

When everybody as their thoughts to them, it creates something. It could be looked at as evil or can draw a predatory energy to that consciousness. And then it becomes a thing. And then it would be called an evil at that point. Because it drew predatory energy into controlling the populations. And it works out real well for the government. And the governments can start to create it. But the sales people, the people delivering it to the people, they don't have bad intentions.



[1:18:18] Ashley James: The individuals in the pharmaceutical industry are not bad people. Yeah, I've met the ex-sales people. They've got a spouse and family and kids and their moms and dads and they're not evil. But then they turned around one day and realized that what they were selling was harming people. And then they either chose -



[1:18:39] Eric Thorton: When they become aware of it, they change.



[1:18:42] Ashley James: And they either chose to stay or leave.



[1:18:44] Eric Thorton: Right. Right. If they stayed, then it would be conspiracy. But they chose to leave because they realized it wasn't. So that happens in this too. That's why I mentioned the government required these certain things for their benefit. They needed sanitation. They needed water. Well, that wasn't a bad person coming up with that. Because they couldn't be nomadic anymore because they were using the rainforest for palm oil. Sorry. And so it's not one person but it works for the government in the end.



[1:19:23] Ashley James: Right. Well, I mean if they had designed it in a way that what is more affordable than - right. So just looking at, because I think there's a correlation between what's happening in Central and South America with iowaska and what's going to happen in the United States with microdosing psilocybin mushrooms. And I see this correlation. Because, you know, history will repeat itself.



[1:19:46] Eric Thorton: Oh, definitely.



[1:19:47] Ashley James: Governments like to duplicate what happens? And so we're looking at -



[1:19:49] Eric Thorton: Correct. So does the medical industry.



[1:19:53] Ashley James: So countries look at each other and go, what worked? What didn't work? Let's repeat that. We want to have legal access to microdosing psilocybin mushroom like many people now have access to clean CBD or THC should they want that. And so what we want -



[1:20:20] Eric Thorton: You can go with THC. You can go to a facility that's monitored. And you know, it's not going to be laced with something else. So it's much safer and better for sleep or anxiety and the other. But it's not mixed with something else to get you hooked on it. And so it's just the product. So in that case, it's a good thing.



[1:20:42] Ashley James: Now, does pot - does marijuana have microdosing? Could it have the same neuroplasticity effects? Or is it just two different of a plant?



[1:20:54] Eric Thorton: Well, it's different effects. So you're comparing apples and grapes.



[1:20:59] Ashley James: And motorcars.



[1:21:00] Eric Thorton: Yeah. They're just different. So there are benefits, obviously, to THC and CBD and the different types of CBDs and other things.



[1:21:13] Ashley James: Cannabinoids.



[01:21:14] Eric Thorton: Cannabinoids and the -- I forgot -



[1:21:16] Ashley James: Terpenes.



[1:21:20] Eric Thorton: Terpenes. Terpenes. Yeah. And they're just discovering it in our country. They discovered it in other countries. But we have to rediscover everything in our country. But by allowing that in, then we start getting the benefits of it. And, of course, the corporations don't like that. So they want to take the active ingredients and either duplicate them or refine them and then patent that. Well, that's a corporation. That's not an evil. That's a corporation that -



[1:21:54] Ashley James: Wants to make money.



[1:21:54]  Eric Thorton: -- that is designed to make profit and give money to their people who buy their stock. That's not evil. But you get 50 corporations building on it. And pretty soon you've got something that's not THC anymore or not cannabinoids anymore. And you're creating something else.



[1:22:12] Ashley James: And then they lobby for certain laws. And then you know, if they're - that's the problem, we need corporations that want win-win situations and good for all. But we've talked about that before. I'd like to know, maybe you could ask the guides, are there other substances or other techniques that people could use to increase neuroplasticity likes psilocybin?



[1:22:39] Eric Thorton: Well, I mean, we've already talked about the LSD. We talked about iowaska.



[1:22:44] Ashley James: Right. But I mean, like a household - you know, some things that are legal or techniques.



[1:22:52] Eric Thorton: The guides are good. And I understand this. They're going careful because there are. But psilocybin is a poison. And in too much, it causes the wrong type. And the same with iowaska and things like that. They are little poisons. And if you get the wrong ones, even the wrong mushrooms with psilocybin, will kill you.



[1:23:18] Ashley James: Are there - so I'll reach out. I'll change my question. Are their natural and not poisonous supplements out there that can have the same or similar effects as psilocybin?



[1:23:35] Eric Thorton: Cheese.



[1:23:36] Ashley James: Cheese?



[1:23:37] Eric Thorton: Yeah.



[1:23:39] Ashley James: That's funny.



[1:23:41] Eric Thorton: Yeah. Cheese, fat. We get addicted to fat and it gives us an experience that's not us. It calms us. It makes us feel like we're coming out of euphoria. It changes who you are. It changes your body. And it's an addiction. Now, I don't know if you can microdose cheese and get a benefit from it. But we get addicted to foods the same way. Meat causes the same addiction. So does sugar. And these are stronger reactions. What it does is, it causes your body, the bacteria in your intestine to send a signal to your brain to tell you to get more of that. And it slowly changes your neuroplasticity of your brain. It's a slower product. But it is doing it. And so if you took that - the guys are agreeing with that - and you could slowly - if you gave a person piece of cheese and give them at that right moment, you could technically implant a new idea.



[1:25:01] Ashley James: That's funny.



[1:25:02] Eric Thorton: That's funny. And it is. And I've never been asked that question before. Never. And they're just showing me what food does. They literally show me, everyday stuff that you eat and how it creates these and creates the direction your neuroplasticity is going. Once you get addicted to cheese, cow's milk, the fats, it has changed your whole life. And not necessarily in a good direction.



[1:25:36] Ashley James: I did an episode on cheese. I really recommend listeners to and search. In the search bar, search cheese. Listen to that episode. It is so good. And it's a short one. But it's very impactful. Lots of great information. When I say short, I mean like 45 minutes is short to me. But it's a really good episode because - I want to say it was Dr. Bernard.



[1:26:04] Eric Thorton: So you actually interviewed somebody about -



[1:26:05] Ashley James: About cheese. It was Dr. Bernard. A really great guy in the whole food plant based world. He looks like 40. If you look at his pictures, you're like that is a handsome doctor. He's, like, in his 70s and he looks 40.



[1:26:18] Eric Thorton: That's phenomenal.



[1:26:17] Ashley James: Yeah. And he's whole food plant based, you know, vegan. And he wrote a whole book on cheese. And it's great because when - I mean, I know I'm lactose intolerant. I'm totally allergic to milk and I know I shouldn't eat it. But back when I did eat cheese, Duffy and I would sit and we go to Costco and get a brick of Tillamook and we just sit there and watch TV on like a Sunday afternoon and -



[1:26:44] Eric Thorton: Get high on cheese.



[1:26:46] Ashley James: We would literally get high on cheese. The two of us, we polish off a brick of Tillamook in a weekend. And we'd sit there and we slice off little thin slices at a time. Just like micro dosing one bite at a time. A whole brick of cheese, oh, man. That Tillamook. But it does. It totally affects the brains. So the whole interview was about how cheese - because concentrated addiction. It's those chemicals that affect the brain.

So Dr. Joel Fuhrman said something really funny. Because I've been studying diets. And I think many listeners would agree with me that when you start feeling really good on a diet, you think it's the right diet for you. We're basing it on our symptoms. So if we start feeling good like, "Oh, wow. I feel really good after that meal. This must be the right way to eat." So people don't go ketogenic. Man, after that the three eggs and bacon, I feel so - or whatever -



[1:27:49] Eric Thorton: Right. The fat.



[1:27:50] Ashley James: After that butter on my steak or after that Tillamook cheese, I feel so good. Or after that keto shake, I feel - people will say, I feel really good on fat or on cheese. And Dr. Joel Fuhrman, who I've also interviewed, said -



[1:28:06] Eric Thorton: That's why the keto diet is so popular.



[1:28:08] Ashley James: Right. Because the people feel really - people feel really good. But he says, "Listen. If you judge a diet based on how you feel, cocaine will make you feel amazing. It doesn't mean it's good for you." And I was like, "Oh my gosh." My entire world exploded - imploded at that point. Because I thought, I've been judging diets based on how I feel. And it's actually based on - it had to be based on, obviously, the science and what's going on in the brain and what's going on hormonally, and what's going on in the gut. And we have to look at that.



[1:28:48] Eric Thorton: If you did mushrooms everyday, psilocybin, it would do the same thing that cheese does. Because you lose the ability for the hallucinations with psilocybin. And all you get is a little bit of euphoric feeling from it, which is what cheese does. And at that moment, when you guys were doing those bricks of Tillamook, if you were listening to commercial, they're brainwashing you.



[1:29:15] Ashley James: Very interesting. So when we eat foods like cheese or highly processed hyper -



[1:29:21] Eric Thorton: Anything that's in the book, the Pleasure Trap.



[1:29:24] Ashley James: The Pleasure Trap is a great book. And I recommend getting the audio version of the Pleasure Trap because Chef AJ is the narrator. And I love her. She's great. I also interviewed her. That's a good episode as well. Because she shares how she healed her colon cancer with the whole food plant based diet. But also that she healed her food addiction with it as well. So that's a really good interview. Very interesting. I love how this conversation led to this because we are dosing ourselves daily with foods that are causing our brains to be more susceptible to receiving subconscious messages from marketing.



[1:30:13] Eric Thorton: What is yesterday? What was yesterday? That's a cheeseburger day?



[1:30:18] Ashley James: No.



[1:30:18] Eric Thorton: Yes. And what do they show? The thing you're addicted to in a cheeseburger the most is the cheese. Second is the meat. So they're showing the cheese dripping all over, blah, blah, blah. And it goes back to the feeling that you and Duffy had when you were eating the Tillamook. Just the implant from looking at that, associate it with that, and it goes into, and then you are brainwashed to go get a hamburger, and to have the meat, and to have the blah, blah, blah.



[1:30:51] Ashley James: So I just watched - my husband and I just went to a documentary. They had this one global event where they released this documentary called The Game Changers.



[1:31:01] Eric Thorton: I saw that.



[1:31:01] Ashley James: Did you go see it?



[1:31:02] Eric Thorton: Thursday.



[1:31:03] Ashley James: No. Monday.



[1:31:04] Eric Thorton: No. Monday. Were you there?



[1:31:05] Ashley James: Did you see it? We went to Northgate.



[1:31:07] Eric Thorton: We were at Redmond. Yeah. Phenomenal.



[1:31:08] Ashley James: Yeah. Wasn't it amazing? It was so good.



[1:31:12] Eric Thorton: I mean, I like it better than Forks Over Knives.



[1:31:13] Ashley James: It was the best.



[1:31:13] Eric Thorton: Because it's not convicting or micromanaging. It was just presenting.



[1:31:19] Ashley James: It was just presenting great information. 



[1:31:20] Eric Thorton: Great information.



[1:31:21] Ashley James: My husband I want to - I'm talking about him like a third person like he's not sitting right beside me. Because he doesn't have a microphone on. But we want to get it and get our family to watch it. I mean, it was great. We went with Naomi. Hi, Naomi. She's one of the listeners. And it was outstanding. What I loved the most was seeing that this woman was a cyclist and she went on the whole food plant based diet. And she was getting better.




[1:31:53] Eric Thorton: Olympic cyclist.



[1:31:53] Ashley James: She's an Olympic cyclist. But she was getting better and better times. And so they couldn't kick her off the team even though she was the oldest person who had ever been on the Olympic cycling team, I think ever.



[1:32:05] Eric Thorton: Right. Ever.



[1:32:06] Ashley James: She goes, "Just my times kept getting better and better so they couldn't kick me off. They had to invite me to the Olympics."  And she was 39-and-a-half. The oldest of anyone in her class who had ever cycled in the Olympics. And she won - she brought home the gold at 39-and-a half. There was a heavyweight or weightlifter dude and he was 40, and he brought home the gold, I think. And she talked about that when you drink beet juice before you workout, it increases your endurance something like 33%.



[1:32:43] Eric Thorton: It's a high dose. It's a high thing. Beet juice creates the environment for the most nitrous oxide. And causing the endothelium to shrink more blood flow to your legs, to your muscles, more lubrication to your myofascial so you can run faster and jump higher for longer periods of time. Your oxygen is better because you're getting more blood physically to the muscles you're using. It's phenomenal. And they show that. They show the scientific, the animation of it in that movie. And I've recommended to one person already. But the beet juice is the highest concentrate of what you need to do that. But close behind it are all the greens. And there's so many fruits, vegetables of all sorts. And that's why athletes are changing over.  How about the thing about what does gladiator me?



[1:33:44] Ashley James: Oh, that was hilarious.



[1:33:43] Eric Thorton: Barley and mushroom eaters.



[1:33:45] Ashley James: Yeah, yeah.



[1:33:46] Eric Thorton: Or barley something eater.



[1:33:47] Ashley James: It meant barley and green eaters - or no. Sorry. It was bean and green -



[1:33:54] Eric Thorton: Bean and barley. Bean and barley eaters.



[1:33:55] Ashley James: Bean and barley eaters. That was it. The word gladiator translated into - because the gladiators themselves who we think are -



[1:34:05] Eric Thorton: Meat eaters.



[1:34:05] Ashley James: We think they're meat eaters because they're these elite athletes from thousands of years ago were actually - were predominantly vegetarian.



[1:34:14] Eric Thorton: They could tell by the concentration of their bones.



[1:34:17] Ashley James: Yeah. So I found that the whole movie was fascinating. But how it relates to this discussion is, the neuroplasticity of the brain and our ability to heal. What I've seen over and over again is when people clean up their diet, and you can confirm -



[1:34:39] Eric Thorton: I totally confirm it.



[1:34:40] Ashley James: That when we clean up our diet, we remove the hyper palatable foods that are hijacking the brain and the gut. And the gut affects our brain because the gut produces our serotonin, our neurotransmitters. It also - and I just recently learned this because I'm taking a course through FDN. It's an advanced course through Functional Diagnostic Nutrition for health coaches. And I learned that 25% of the body's T3 is converted in the gut. So when we have this biosis, then you go to an MD and you say, "I'm really tired." Well, you're eating the standard American diet or the standard Canadian or standard Australian diet, whatever. You're eating the standard marketed to us diet. Processed food -



[1:35:20] Eric Thorton: Corporate diets.



[1:35:22] Ashley James: Corporate diet. We're eating the corporate diet, hyperpalatable foods of salt, sugar, and oil, and animal products, and flour. And we go to our MD because we're tired. The MD says, "Oh, well, you know, you're 40 and you're tired. And you have a few pounds on. So it's probably your thyroid that says you're tired." And then he sees your T3 is low and then he puts you on a synthetic T3. Meanwhile, your thyroid is fine. But it was your - I mean, it could just be, for example, your gut or your liver. Your liver plays a huge role in your in your thyroid hormones. But they don't even look.



[1:35:57] Eric Thorton: They don't. They don't because they don't want to undo their treatment system. The medical service system is where they make their money. I have to convince - one of the things that we do here is we look at the individual and what they specifically need. It all comes down to we all need to be whole food plant based. We're talking about that. But some people can get away with some meat. But there's nobody can get away with fat.



[1:36:26] Ashley James: The standard corporate diet.



[1:36:30] Eric Thorton: The standard corporate diet, nobody can. And they go, "Well, I'm not dying." It's hard to convince people that their thyroid will correct. Everything will correct if they give it the right fuel. And it's the same, we're talking about psilocybin therapy. It's the same with your brain. You give it the right fuel and it's going to change. It's going to change the neuroplasticity. That's why cheese affects that. That's why food affects similarly to hallucinogens. When you asked that question the guy just came and just downloading. He looks like, "Oh my gosh.



[1:37:06] Ashley James: Right. It's fascinating. That the brain - we can go out and we can get high off of legal food. But you're saying that the drawback -



[1:37:16] Eric Thorton: You don't get any higher doing microdosing of psilocybin than you do with eating Tillamook cheese. Literally, you don't get any higher. I mean, Tillamook cheese actually gives you this euphoric feeling that's amazing. Tillamook or any cheese. I'm not picking on Tillamook. Sorry.



[1:37:35] Ashley James: Oh, no. It's delicious.



[1:37:37] Eric Thorton: It's a delicious cheese.



[1:37:37] Ashley James: If you're going to do cheese -



[1:37:40] Eric Thorton: You do Tillamook. 



[1:37:43] Ashley James: And we should start thinking about flour, sugar, oil, and animal products like street drugs. Are you doing eggs? Are you doing eggs and cheese? I mean, it's like, are you doing meth? Right?



[1:37:59] Eric Thorton: That's what I do. That's what I do with my kids. So you're still doing me. Okay.



[1:38:04] Ashley James: And not a point of judgment but a point of awakening and recognition that these foods affect the brain. And we can affect that brain -



[01:38:16] Eric Thorton: And that's proven.



[1:38:16] Ashley James: - in a positive way or a negative way. It's proven. But I've seen it so many times with my clients that when they clean up their diet, they're able to do emotional healing work so much easier.  Because the inflammation is gone. The brain isn't hyper-excited from these foods. The brain isn't hijacked from these foods.



[1:38:39] Eric Thorton: Correct. Right. So I've noticed that with my clients that have taken the plunge and switched over to whole food plant based over the long term. We can get into very different spots. And one, the body is healing itself. And so we start taking the things that are preventing the body from healing itself. And we take away - and then they take away the food items that are preventing the body from healing itself or agitating the immune system. And all of a sudden their brain has time for other things. And their body has time for other things. And it's the priority. You're dying by eating the standard American diet, the standard corporate diets. And so your body has to put everything there, your consciousness there, your subconsciousness there to just stay alive. It's amazing what the body will do too. Because it will keep you alive going even though you're sickly for years and years and years and years. But your experience in life isn't good. You're just experiencing one negative situation to another with your health and your mental capacity. All of a sudden you clean up and the brain has time for spiritual growth.

And you were talking about conspiracy theory. And what the governments do and they want us unaware. When you're sick or sickly, you are obsessed with that. You aren't growing spiritually. So you take it and you become dogmatic. "Okay. I'm exhausted. How do I get to heaven? Okay. Do it this way." And there you go. Or you say, because you're tired, you're exhausted, you don't have anytime left to grow that way.



[1:40:19] Ashley James: And that and the food is what's making us exhausted, the corporate foods.



[1:40:22] Eric Thorton: Right. And if you look at the corporate food structure, there is intent with it because the corporation's want to sell you their products. But there's also that enough intent to create the thought forms, which bring predatory energy to it. And then we pick it up. And then we're being compelled. And the corporations love that part of it. Because they're selling more products. And all they care about selling more products. And they don't look at - again, corporations don't have morals.



[1:40:56]  Ashley James: I think we should ask ourselves - and this is the homework I want to give listeners. Ask yourself for the next week every day at every meal, "Am I compelled to buy this food and eat this? Or can I say no to it? Could I choose a giant bowl of steamed vegetables and just eat that?" And then if you're still hungry, eat something else. But if there's something in you that's compelled to drive to the drive through or compelled to go to the restaurant or compelled to buy the packaged food.



[1:41:26] Eric Thorton: Or compelled to not eat those vegetables. And not eat the fruit, not eat the potatoes that don't have everything all over them.



[1:41:34] Ashley James: Just the baked potatoes.



[1:41:36] Eric Thorton: The baked potatoes.



[ 1:41:38] Ashley James: Or the brown rice or whatever. But if there's something in you -



[1:41:41] Eric Thorton: That's going yuck to something is healthy.



[1:41:41] Ashley James: - that's resisting something healthy or that's compelling you to eat something unhealthy.



[1:41:48] Eric Thorton: There's something beyond you.



[1:41:51] Ashley James: It's not you. 



[1:41:52] Eric Thorton: Yeah. Your body wants what's healthy. I'll give an example with my wife and I. Sometimes we want to go out. That's a problem, right? We found the Mongolian grill, the ones that you're talking about. The normal one doesn't do it.



[1:42:06] Ashley James: It's called Iron Grill. We call it an Iron Gut. They only have two locations here, one in Mill Creek one and one -



[1:42:11]  Eric Thorton: Right. It's a privately owned one.



[1:42:13] Ashley James: One in Monroe. But all the other Mongolian girls are just oil and all this gross stuff.



[1:42:17] Eric Thorton: Oil over the place. They don't even use oil at these two.



[1:42:17] Ashley James: They don't even use oil. I love it.



[1:42:19] Eric Thorton: No oil at all. They don't put it on their grill at all. So we want to go out. So we go to PCC, which is a local coop. And we'll get salad again. And we sit down and we put our dressing up that we bring and we're sitting there going, "Okay. A salad." Take one bite and the body lights up. And you just want to eat that damn salad.



[1:42:46] Ashley James: Yeah. But the brain is going - 



[1:42:48] Eric Thorton: The corporate training -



[1:42:48] Ashley James: The corporate training is like, "No. Not salad again."



[1:42:51] Eric Thorton: I don't want salad.



[1:42:53] Ashley James: I don't like vegetables. This isn't fun.



[1:42:54] Eric Thorton: That didn't work for a caveman that needed to eat the vegetables all the time because there was often no meat. And they had to eat it. And they weren't picky.



[1:43:05] Ashley James: Right. Well, here.



[1:43:06] Eric Thorton: They just ate what was in front of them. But there wasn't the thought forms from the corporations. So they just ate it because it was there. You don't got a chimpanzee wanting the ripe banana. They want all the bananas. And because there's nothing compelling them to become picky and have just the right. So then they don't eat them. So it's a buildup of energy that has created - has brought in evil to it. And we call them corporate thought forms. And those influence in every way they can and they use food to enter your brain, the same way psilocybin does. And I just am fascinated by that. Give a whole new world of healing. The guide - your question did. Thank you.



[1:43:58] Ashley James: Well, you're welcome. But this is what I've been exploring on other episodes, it's been building up to this. This understanding of how important food is to our brain.



[1:44:07] Eric Thorton: It's huge. This, I know. It totally controls your brain, your mood, your hormones throughout your whole body.  And you can look at that - I mean that has become a conspiracy. That no one person did it. It's a corporate lack of value system. I have thought in the past that because we're all governed by the corporate laws of the world. And I have thought in the past that the corporate laws need to have a standard of morals that is required for all corporate law. And one of the morals is do no harm. Doctors have it. Now, they've bent out a bit. But they still have it. Corporate law doesn't have that. And if corporate law, if it had just that one sentence added to corporate law, how much would be different?



[1:45:27] Ashley James: Huge. It would take a lot more precautions.



[1:45:31] Eric Thorton: Right. Do no harm. Instead of allowing - they have a law - you know, the laws in our country allow us not to sue the pharmaceuticals individually. So it's okay for them to do harm. Because that's the only way they can do "science." And that's not true. But they just took away the morals from pharmaceuticals.



[1:45:57] Ashley James: Right. This was a while ago, but I interviewed a woman who called herself a water [inaudible 01:46:04]. And she's quite interesting but what she did professionally before she got into nutrition was she was a scientist for - I think it was Pringles or Doritos or one of those -



[1:46:23] Eric Thorton: Isn't that sad. The scientists for a food company.



[1:46:26] Ashley James: Yeah. It was like a Nestle. It was one of those companies. And her and her team had to make some kind of Doritos be hyperpalatable. They had to always invent new - and I don't know if it was actually Doritos. But it was some kind -



[1:46:45] Eric Thorton: Well, Doritos is very much there.



[1:46:47] Ashley James: And they had to figure out what they could do to just make this addictive. And I asked her some questions about that. About what the intention was behind it. Because she left - eventually left that career. Did she feel there was like an evil intention or intention to harm people? And she says not at all. She said the scientists on the team were scientists. And they were just looking at what could they do to make something really excite the brain. And it was cool. It was science. It was neuroscience. What could they do to put a chemical on the tongue and make the brain light up like cocaine? And that was fun for them. And they came up with all kinds of interesting chemicals and interesting fat and carbohydrate mixed with chemical ratios to make the brain light up ten times more than cocaine. So there wasn't a, "Hahaha. We're going to hurt people." It was more just like they were given a task, they're scientists. It was compartmentalize. And they had fun.



[1:47:52] Eric Thorton: [Inaudible 01:47:52] and compartmentalized.



[1:47:54] Ashley James: And they had fun doing it because that was their task as a scientist. And then of course, she saw the big picture and saw how much the food industry was harming people. And so her idea was to then focus on how to make foods delicious in a wholesome way.

But that that was her background. So I just thought that was really interesting that her experience wasn't that she didn't feel like the corporation was looking to harm people. It just wants to make money. But the problem is that they don't have the values or the morals behind it to not want to do harm.



[1:48:34] Eric Thorton: Well, if the confirmation bias - they call that - it's there just to look at the benefits of this. If they also were compelled to do no harm, they would have to look at the whole picture. And then they would discover what she discovered, and she could no longer be there. But instead, their confirmation bias, they're looking for this. This boxed in thing and it's framed in, this is all you're looking for so don't look for anything beyond that frame. Well, if the government said, "Okay. You have to look beyond that frame."



[1:49:06] Ashley James: Here are your constraints as a business.



[1:49:09] Eric Thorton: Here it is. You have to do no harm to the human body. No harm. And that includes anyone who does research on it can say, "Okay. That disodium phosphate that they discovered and Lay's discovered. Instead of monosodium glutamate, they put disodium phosphate in. And [inaudible 01:49:29] the chemical that does that." Well, what does it do to your gut? What does it do to - and there's other chemicals too. But what does it do to your brain? What does it - why is it doing that?



[1:49:38] Ashley James: So what does disodium phosphate do to the body?



[1:49:40] Eric Thorton: It's an addiction. And so they've eliminated monosodium glutamate because it got a bad name.



[1:49:47] Ashley James: Right. MSG is bad. But they just replaced it with something else.



[1:49:49] Eric Thorton: They replaced it with something else to drive you. And that hasn't been investigated yet. Only the benefits of it have been investigated.



[1:49:59] Ashley James: It's so funny because when I make home baked fries - so I don't fry it with oil. I cut up a potato. I bake in the oven. I can put a little nutritional yeast or Bragg's or something on it, you know, make it taste salty. And it's a potato fry or air fry or that kind of thing. You eat one serving, you're full, you're done. But if you were to eat potato chips -



[1:50:28] Eric Thorton: You eat three times as much or five times as much.



[1:50:29] Ashley James: - you can't stop because of the chemicals they put on it.



[1:50:33] Eric Thorton: And the combination of the chemicals. Exactly.



[1:50:36] Ashley James: And that's hijacking the brain.



[1:50:38] Eric Thorton: It's hijacking the brain.



[1:50:40] Ashley James: And bypassing the internal thermostat that says their full.



[1:50:43] Eric Thorton: Therefore they're doing harm. So they couldn't do that if that little law was there.



[1:50:50] Ashley James: Right. So we have to take it upon ourselves that law. We have to really recognize that corporations do not have that law. As individuals we do. Like, you can't go and do harm to your neighbor. You're in a world of hurt if you do. But a corporation can do harm to millions of people and get away with it. So we, as individuals, have to be informed consumers. Everything we put in our mouth, we have to be diligent just like you would with a supplement or the pharmaceutical. We have to choose to look at the side effects. Look at the studies. Look at where it came from. That's why a whole food plant based diet is so easy because it's like, "Here's broccoli."



[1:51:29] Eric Thorton: Yep. There it is.



[1:51:31] Ashley James: Three it is. It's safe.



[1:51:32] Eric Thorton: And if you can get an organic, better.



[1:51:34] Ashley James: Even better.



[1:51:35] Eric Thorton: Even better. And broccoli, some people it's not their favorite thing. But there's ways of dealing with that broccoli that can make it absolutely be whole food plant based and be delicious. I just discovered something last night. I'm going to mention it on your blog here so other people can do it. I was cooking them. I cooked greens. They were Swiss chard. And I put in a pressure cooker for four minutes with some water and some garlic and some smoke. And the Swiss chard -



[1:52:10] Ashley James: When you say smoke -



[1:52:11] Eric Thorton: Liquid smoke.



[1:52:12] Ashley James: Liquid smoke, okay. Tiny bit because that stuff is strong.



[1:52:13] Eric Thorton: A tiny bit. It's very strong. And so I just did that recipe up and I got done. It was a little bit bitter and I like bitter. But I thought, "You know, there's combinations that can do - that the human body likes. And we like sweet-sour, sweet- bitter, sweet- smoky. We like sweet with different combinations" And I thought, "Hm. A little bit of apple juice on this would be amazing." And oh my god -



[1:52:42] Ashley James: It was really good?



[1:52:43] Eric Thorton: It was amazing.



[1:52:44] Ashley James: Swiss chard is a little, too, like stringent for me. But if I did that recipe, I think I'd like it.



[1:52:50] Eric Thorton: I just put it on [inaudible 01:52:51] like you would vinegar on it or something. Abd [inaudible 01:52:55] apples. Well, let's put apple juice on it. It was like, "Oh."

And it's made it worth eating. I mean, it was delicious.



[1:53:06] Ashley James: That's awesome.



[1:53:08] Eric Thorton: I thought, "Oh. I must tell people that." So I'm going to sneak it in on my kids and see how they deal with it.



[1:53:18] Ashley James: Nice. I love taking - I mean when I'm really busy, I add - lots of grocery stores do this now. You can get organic pre-shredded vegetables and they have pre-shredded broccoli. So it's just totally shredded broccoli in a bag. And then I love mixing that with avocado.



[1:53:38] Eric Thorton: Oh, I have never done that.



[1:53:38] Ashley James: And then I just mix with my hands. I mix it all together. So there's no dressing needed. Just half an avocado or something and a bag of this stuff and mix it together. And then I'll throw in whatever greens I want. Because the salad or like a handful of sauerkraut - organic sauerkraut that I get from Costco. And it is an explosion of flavor. It's so good it takes you forever to eat because it's so much fiber. But it's so good.



[1:54:05] Eric Thorton: It fills you up though.



[1:54:07] Ashley James: It fills you up. All it will do is fill you up.



[1:54:07] Eric Thorton: Right. With no calorie or very low calories.



[1:54:09] Ashley James: Very low calories. It's healthy fats. And I love getting broccoli because it's so good for the body.



[1:54:16] Eric Thorton: Well, that makes no profit for a corporation. One of the combinations,people will use any excuse for bad behavior. So when I was walking out of that movie, The Game Changers, and this lady goes, "Oh my God. If everybody does this, there'll be unemployment everywhere." And I just went, "Well, if you're going to base your eating off of global employment, well, then fine. But guess what? If everything would shift -



[1:54:49] Ashley James: Right. Well, they said that if - I can't remember whether it was if America - United States went completely whole food plant based, really vegan, or if it was the whole world. I think it was just America.



[1:55:02] Eric Thorton: Just America.



[1:55:02] Ashley James: If America stops eating meat today, then we would clear up the entire - the size of the continent of Africa in terms of the farming that is required to maintain these animals. So it was something like one third of the world, basically, would be free to be forests.



[1:55:24] Eric Thorton: To grow vegetables and forests.



[1:55:26] Ashley James: Grow vegetables. But that only -



[1:55:28] Eric Thorton: Repairs it.



[1:55:28] Ashley James: That's only 20% of our farmland in the world is used to make non-meat.



[1:55:35] Eric Thorton: I think it's less. It think it's 15%.



[1:55:37] Ashley James: It was crazy. It was just crazy. So the numbers - basically, if we didn't grow meat, then the employment would be to grow vegetables, have local farms. I think there's a lot of benefits too. But that's fine if her first thought was all the unemployment. All those poor people that work in the meat factories, that's just the available job. They don't actually like working there.



[1:55:59] Eric Thorton: No. So anyway, it's a tough - these things that open up our brain for change are not only in our regular diet, but you can also do it, like we say, with microdosing. And we have to be very cautious when you open up our brain in our daily life to any thing. Like, I guess, I won't meditate in groups because we're opening yourself up. Well, that's the same with food -



[1:56:37] Ashley James: Opening ourselves up every day.



[1:56:38] Eric Thorton: Opening ourselves up every day.



[1:56:38] Ashley James: People that go hang out McDonald's together and eat a Big Mac, they're opening themselves up.



[1:56:42] Eric Thorton: So the same thing that cocaine does and things like that. And again, I remember the name of the book, The Pleasure Trap. And it's like, "Read it." You'll understand the chemical reaction going on. And it's very similar to psilocybin. And it's food. Every time you get mushrooms, you got psilocybin. And we all love mushrooms. And it's because it gives you that same non-high level, it gives you the euphoria that cheese and other meats and things like that will give you.



[1:57:16] Ashley James: So we can find in a healthy form, like mushrooms -



[1:57:19] Eric Thorton: Cook them.



[1:57:20] Ashley James: Yeah. Cook mushrooms. But if we ate raw mushrooms, would we get  - I mean raw Portobello, would we get neurological benefits?



[1:57:32] Eric Thorton: Well, it opens you up for suggestion. There's no neurological benefits to it.



[1:57:37] Ashley James: So eat a Portobello raw and then go to your therapist.



[1:57:41] Eric Thorton: Bring your Portobello to the therapists and eat it while you're - that is an interesting thing that would be worth investigating.



[1:57:51] Ashley James: Right. I'm going to eat a pound Crimini or Portobello mushrooms and then I'm going to come see you and see what happens.



[1:57:58] Eric Thorton: So that would be really interesting to investigate that, wouldn't it? But the guides just made that absolute correlation, you are opening up the power of - to opening up to suggestion. And that's what has to be so careful about psilocybin therapy.



[1:58:15] Ashley James: Well, no one wants to be duped. And we're being duped by marketing all the time. The thought forms, the corporate suggestions, we really need to sit back in quiet time. I think we need to reflect without a screen in front of us, without any media pouring into us. We need to sit quietly and journal and think about and contemplate this thought, "What are my beliefs and what are the beliefs that have been implanted in me from corporations -"



[1:58:51] Eric Thorton: Corporate interests.



[1:58:53] Ashley James: Corporate interests.



[1:58:54] Eric Thorton: Right. No morals. And if they do have morals, they've made them.



[1:59:00] Ashley James: And they're not our morals. But they've made them for the purpose of profit and power.



[1:59:07] Ashley James: Yeah. And we don't want to be duped anymore.



[1:59:10] Eric Thorton: We don't want to be duped. We're realizing that it does - how it does chemically, change the body to eat these foods of any sort. And the benefits and the control that can happen with that. And that's why I will work with people that do uncontrolled hallucinogenic stuff. Just like now, I got to look at it from food. That's going to be interesting healing sessions. But the uncontrolled and what's happened to them versus a controlled situation. And the benefits you can get from that.



[1:59:48] Ashley James: Controlled, meaning a microdose psilocybin mushrooms -



[1:59:52] Eric Thorton: With the proper therapy.



[1:59:53] Ashley James: - with the doctor, with therapy, with working with you.



[1:59:58] Eric Thorton: So that's where we need to go with this stuff. And that's where the benefit I've had with my clients.



[2:00:04] Ashley James: Well, it's just fascinating that people with schizophrenia are able to not have schizophrenic episodes. Is it lessened schizophrenic episodes or no schizophrenic episodes with psilocybin?



[2:00:16] Eric Thorton: From what I have read - because I've only had a couple patients that it has gotten rid of them.



[2:00:24] Ashley James: Gotten rid of the schizophrenic episodes.



[2:00:27] Eric Thorton: The schizophrenic episodes for a period of time. And  it's gotten rid of the bipolar behavior for a period of time. Now, if you're just getting the microdose from the doctor but not doing any of the homework -



[2:00:43] Ashley James: On emotional work.



[2:00:43] Eric Thorton:-  on the emotional work and things like that, what's firing up - because schizophrenia is fired off in the brain that can have schizophrenia. It's fired off by an emotional reaction. Well, if you can get to the emotional reactions, you're going to win the psilocybin therapy wears off a year later. You're going to have less things that trip you into the schizophrenic or bipolar episode. So you are healing it but you've got to do the work. Not just go down and get the thing once a year or once every six months, it varies from person to person. And just keep - you can, you can just keep doing that or you can do -



[2:01:20] Ashley James: But there's no growth in that.



[2:01:23] Eric Thorton: There's no growth. If you can find out what it's all about, why, what triggers it, then you are in control. Not the doctors. So that's where we go.



[2:01:34] Ashley James: Very cool. So for those who are interested in learning more about how they can work with you or discover a practitioner that will do psilocybin with them and microdoses in a safe environment and do the therapy, they can contact you, And that it's not legal in every state or country. So that's needs to be taken into account. But can get it.



[2:02:03] Eric Thorton: It's their decision.



[2:02:03] Ashley James: But there are people in different states that even though it's not legal can have access to it with certain doctors that are willing to go against the laws in order to help people. So this is sort of like - I feel like it's, like, ten years ago with marijuana. There's only a matter of time before it's going to be legal. And that people will be able to use it in microdoses for this this type of healing.



[2:02:32] Eric Thorton: For this type. You have to have the following.



[2:02:35] Ashley James: But what we can do now is look at our diet. Because it affects our brain. Every meal, every meal, every -



[2:02:42] Eric Thorton: Every meal, every snack. Everything you put in your body -



[2:02:44] Ashley James: Affects our brain.



[2:02:46] Eric Thorton: And it's different. One last thing here, it's different from one person to the next because of the way your body digests food. And how much damage there is to your digestive system. So you have several factors there. And that's why it's not just a one thing fits all.



[2:03:09] Ashley James: I'm reading a really interesting book right now. It's called The Metabolic Typing Diet. And I'm enjoying the story and the science. I don't necessarily agree with the diet because there's a lot of meat in it. But it's interesting what these doctors, these clinicians found is that we metabolize - people metabolize differently depending on their autonomic nervous system, depending on their oxidative stress, depending on their alkalinity. They found seven different key factors in the metabolism that determine how food affects us.



[2:03:46]  Eric Thorton: Well, and then you have to add in which they're not obviously not looking at yet, the psychology of it. And what we're talking about,  the addicting factors. So like I in the work here, we look at all of that for each individual. Different set of circumstances for everybody that comes in. Because I listen to their guidance. So we can take them through whatever they've chosen to do. If you look at it as an individual instead of a corporate formula, you're going to get far better care.



[2:04:22] Ashley James: Is there anything you'd like to say or share to wrap up today's interview? I think that the guides really want to make sure that we say to clearly package this interview.



[2:04:33] Eric Thorton: Well, let's look at how the things we put in our mouth affect our brain and our body and our digestion. And it affects every single person that is currently alive in the physical body.



[2:04:46] Ashley James: If you have a pulse.



[2:04:47] Eric Thorton: Yes. If you have a pulse, it affects you. Denial will get you nowhere. It keeps you right where you're at, which is fine if you're happy with it.



[2:04:55] Ashley James: I'll share this quick story. I just had a late night phone call with a friend. I called her as we were driving home, our son fell asleep in the car. We picked him up from grandma's after watching the movie The Game Changers, Monday night. Really good movie. It's coming out digitally soon so everyone could watch it. Everyone needs to watch it.



2:05:13 Eric Thorton: I hope so. Everyone needs to watch it.



[2:05:14] Ashley James: It was really well done. James Cameron, who's the guy that directed Avatar.



[2:05:19] Eric Thorton: And directing the new one currently.



[2:05:23] Ashley James: Right. Currently directing Avatar 2. He's the mastermind behind it. So it was really well done. Even people who are totally convinced they'll never give up meat, you should still watch it because it was very entertaining. But it was really funny too. But anyway, we're driving home and I immediately had to call a friend who's a - she lives in Texas. She lives in a hospital with her friend who is quadriplegic. And she's the caregiver for this quadriplegic who has had the same bedsore that Christopher Reeves died from. And the doctors and nurses are telling my friend you know - they keep reminding my friend, "Christopher Reeves, multimillionaire, died from this. Your friend isn't going to make it." April, the person who's experiencing the bedsore, she has been in three different facilities. And she'd be fine with me sharing this, I know that. I know her. And the first facility - so I sent them a blender and I said, "Put vegetables in the blender and feed April smoothies." Because she fell and broke her neck well down in Texas. And she can't really chew food. And so I sent them a blender and I said - because the hospital food is horrible, I said, "Just blend vegetables. Drink it." And so the first month, there was huge healing. And she just didn't allow April to have any of the hospital food. And they got the doctors on board. Just vegetables and smoothies and almond milk or whatever and drink it, and the healing was amazing. Of course, they're doing all their therapies on it.

And then they transferred April to a different hospital who, for one month, did not allow April to have any vegetables. They said no. They only gave her some kind of protein shake with fake nutrients in it. And she got worse. And then transferred to a different hospital, and now starting to get better again. And the whole time ,it's antibiotic after antibiotic. And all these - they're throwing everything they have allopathically. But the diet, she was doing really bad. Then got on the vegetables and the smoothie, started healing amazingly and responding to their therapies. Then was taken off that diet and started getting worse. Then was put back on the diet and started getting better.



2:08:04 Eric Thorton: Right. It's all because of antioxidants. We're the only mammal that doesn't produce antioxidants. We have to eat them. And they only come from fruits and vegetables. They reduce the oxidative stress. The body could heal even while sitting on the wound.



[2:08:20] Ashley James: Right. And it's just amazing that hospitals feed complete crap to people wanting them to get better.



[2:08:26] Eric Thorton: Right. It's just amazing that they do. There's nothing - there's no value to their food.



[2:08:33] Ashley James: So coming back to the original point, because people are interested in the emotional and mental healing that had taken place with microdosing psilocybin or at least curious to learn more about it, which they have today. But what's really interesting is that every single person has the power to shift how their brain heals or shift how their emotions heal through every meal.



[2:08:57] Eric Thorton: Every single one.



[2:08:58] Ashley James: Yeah. Very cool.



[2:08:59] Eric Thorton: It is. It's very cool. And I'm happy to be a part of whatever people want me to help them with.



[2:09:07] Ashley James: Yeah. I definitely recommend listeners work with you. I've had amazing experiences working with you as it has my husband, as it has my friends. It's a pleasure to be here again today, Eric.



[2:09:17] Eric Thorton: Always.



[2:09:18] Ashley James: Thank you so much for coming back on the show.



[2:09:20] Eric Thorton: Thank you for having me.



[2:09:21] Ashley James: Absolutely. And listeners can go to Learn True Health Facebook Group and type any questions you have for Eric because he's a regular on the show. And you guys can ask questions.



[2:09:30] Eric Thorton: I'd love to hear them. That's a great idea. I'd love to hear them. We could do a show just on questions people write in.



[2:09:36] Ashley James: Yeah. Awesome. All right. Terrific. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure being with you again.



[2:09:39] Eric Thorton: Thank you too, also. However you say that.



[2:09:46] Outro: Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition? And how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity. Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business and support people in their success? Do you love helping people?

You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program. And it really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over a hundred dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition. But from a standpoint of how we can help people to shift their life and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health. I definitely recommend you check them out. You can Google Institute for Integrative Nutrition or IIN and give them a call. Or you can go to and you can receive a free module of their training to check it out and see if it's something that you'd be interested in. Be sure to mention my name Ashley James and the Learn True Health podcast because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program. And I'm such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information.

We need more health coaches. In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctors offices, you can work in hospitals. You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help your local schools shift their programs to help children be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success and their health goals. There's so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach.

So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. Mention my name, get the best deal. Give them a call and they'll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month. So you're going to want to call them now and check it out. And if you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.

Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price? For high quality supplements and to talk to someone about what supplements are best for you, go to and one of our fantastic true health coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are the highest quality and the best price. That's That's Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program.


Get Connected With Eric Thorton!

Official Website



Recommended Reading by Eric Thorton

Educating the Souls, Spiritual Healing and our Eternal Psychology


Check out other interviews of Eric Thorton!

Episode 380: Understanding Your Aura

Episode 375: Spiritual Healing In The Real World

Episode 359: Lives Of Discovery

Episode 336: Energetic Boundaries (Part II)

Episode 335: Energetic Boundaries

Episode 327: Spiritual Healing

Oct 11, 2019

Become A Health Coach-Learn More About The Institute for Integrative Nutrition's Health Coaching Certification Program by checking out these four resources:

1) Integrative Nutrition's Curriculum Guide:

2) The IIN Curriculum Syllabus:

3) Module One of the IIN curriculum:

4) Get three free chapters of Joshua Rosenthal's book:

Watch my little video on how to become a Certified Health Coach!


More about Dr. Campbell-McBride:
BOOK: Gut and Psychology Syndrome
BOOK: Vegetarianism Explained
BOOK: Put Your Heart in Your Mouth


The GAPS Diet


  • GAPS or Gut And Psychology Syndrome
  • Diet as a natural cure for many psychiatric and neurological conditions
  • GAPS diet
  • Symptoms of GAPS
  • Normal and abnormal gut flora
  • Antibiotics in food
  • The body’s reaction to undigested food
  • Rebuilding the gut lining, heal and seal the gut wall
  • Sources of toxicity in the body
  • Babies are born with high toxic load and acquire abnormal gut flora
  • FPIES or Food Protein-Induced Enterocolitis Syndrome
  • Recovery by using the GAPS nutritional protocol
  • GAPS diet is for a lifetime
  • Allergies and the GAPS diet
  • The role of cholesterol and fats
  • Vegetarianism and vegan diet – Veganism is not a diet. It is a form of fasting
  • Eat when you are hungry
  • Trust, listen, and work with your body


Have you ever wondered how our guts play a major role in our body? In today’s episode, Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride will share with us GAPS, the normal and abnormal gut flora and how our body reacts to food.


[0:00] Intro: Hello, true health seekers. And welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health Podcast.

I am so, so honored today to have with us Dr. Campbell-McBride. She’s a nutritionist, a medical doctor, neurologist, and neurosurgeon. She’s the creator of the GAPS diet, which stands for Gut And Psychology Syndrome. Her diet heals the gut, eliminates leaky gut syndrome, and thus helps to heal the nervous system. Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride shares that the GAPS diet helped cure her first son of autism. She now widely promotes the diet as a natural cure for many psychiatric and neurological conditions, including autism, asthma, allergies, food sensitivities, ADD and ADHD, dyspraxia, dyslexia, depression, schizophrenia, Tourette’s Syndrome, bipolar disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, eating disorders, gout, and childhood bedwetting.

It is so fascinating to hear the relationship between gut health and our brain and our nervous system and our immune system. And you’re going to love all the things that Dr. Campbell-McBride shares today.

As you’re listening to this episode and if you really geek out on this kind of information, learning about different diets that heal the body in a certain way, and you want to learn more about all the dietary theories out there that helped to heal different issues in the body really using food as medicine, consider becoming a student at IIN, the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. This is the online school that I went to, to become a health coach. It’s a year-long training program designed for busy, busy moms and dads or busy working people that also want to learn this information. So they make it in a way that allows you to do it in your free time. Listen to these great audios and watch these videos that you can fit it into your everyday life.

And in the course of a year, you learn a hundred dietary theories and all the ways in which you can heal the body with food. You also learn how to help others. So whether you want to become a health coach to help others or just have another tool in your tool belt to help your friends and family and help yourself, IIN has an amazing program. It was really life changing for me and I’ve said this before in the podcast, I would have done the program just for myself. Just for the personal growth that it gave me. And then in addition to that, it added more tools in my tool belt to help others. So if you’d like to learn more information, you can go to That’s and it allows you to take one of their modules for free to see if it’s something that interests you.

If you have any questions about IIN or going through it as a student and want to know more about the experience, please feel free to reach out to me. You can reach out to me through Facebook and our Facebook Group, the Learn True Health Facebook Group. Or you can email me, and I’d love to answer any questions you may have about my experience about going through it as a student. There are actually dozens of people, dozens of listeners that have gone through their program and become health coaches that are also in our Facebook Group. So you can just post in our Facebook Group, the Learn True Health Facebook Group, any questions you have, and not only will I answer them, but others will answer it so you’ll get an even deeper picture of what it’s like to go through their program.

Excellent. Thank you so much for being a listener. Thank you so much for sharing this podcast with those you love. Please share this episode with the mothers and fathers in your life who have children who may have some difficulties with development or with ADD or ADHD, with allergies. This is something that is life changing not only for children but also for adults. I have a friend who this diet saved her life. Because those who have autoimmune conditions as well see great benefit from doing this protocol if they have leaky gut syndrome. So as you’re listening, you may also start to think about all the friends and family that would benefit from hearing this information. So please keep sharing and thank you so much for helping me get this information out there to help as many people as possible to learn true health.



[4:47] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is Episode 385.

I am so excited for today’s guest. We have with us – I feel like it’s I’m like in the presence of a Hollywood celebrity in the health realm – Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride. I have been a big fan of yours. Many of our listeners have been a big fan of yours. And one of my friends who is also a listener says that she would be dead right now if it wasn’t for your protocol. You literally saved her life. And she is the biggest fan girl. Her name is Caroline. She just loves you. So I just want you to know there’s a woman in Seattle who loves you so dearly. People around the world have shared that your protocol has changed their lives. I first saw you on Netflix, actually. The season two, episode one of the Paleo Way. And I was really confused because there are all these diets out there that totally contradict each other.

And what I really get about diets is that it’s about figuring out what your body needs right now. And you have such a scientifically sound protocol to help people heal the brain and heal the gut. You’ve created the GAPS diet. Your website is And we have all the links to everything that Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride in the show notes for today’s podcast Learn True Health. It is such a pleasure to have you here today. Welcome to the show.



[6:26] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Thank you for inviting me. I’m delighted to be here.



[6:29] Ashley James: Absolutely. And thank you for taking the time. Isn’t like 6:00 p.m. your time in London right now?



[6:35] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: It is.



[6:36] Ashley James: Excellent. Well, thank you. Good evening. And I’d love to start by hearing the story. What happened that led you to create the GAPS diet?



[6:50] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Well, I guess it was my fate to create it. Because when I was 18 months old, I fell ill myself and nearly died. I had the food poisoning in the crash. And the food was just going in and coming out. And I was losing weight and literally dying. Until my parents contacted my grandmother – my grandparents in the village who had a smallholding in the village. My grandmother took me there and she healed me. And later on I’ve learned what she healed me with was the GAPS diet, basically. That’s exactly what it was.


[7:28] Ashley James: I love it.



[7:29] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: They have their own – yes. They have their own animals. They have their cow and sheep and chickens and garden and bees and all of that and everything was natural. And my grandmother used to make her own fermented milk from her own milk – raw milk. So that’s what healed me. And then when I got married and moved to Britain, my first child was diagnosed with autism at the age of three. And I knew, I knew instinctively at that point that it’s coming from the digestive tract. Because he had severe digestive problems right from the beginning. So I knew that it’s the diet. That the diet has to fix it. That is the most important thing.

And of course, in those days we didn’t have internet. All I could do is go to the local library and ask for books or whatever. And I came across the specific carbohydrate diet. Because I went to a conference where Elaine Gottschall was speaking. And we made a professional relationship. We became professional friends. And I started that protocol. And then I’ve changed it, evolved it, adding what my grandmother would do. Adding the traditional diets to the traditional wisdom to it. And then my own patients have called it the GAPS diet, standing for Gut And Psychology Syndrome. That’s the abbreviation.

Later on, I’ve added another GAPS strip, Gut And Physiology Syndrome. Because initially, obviously, I focused on autism. And as I was working with autistic children, I realized that their siblings are not healthy either. They have digestive symptoms, they have allergies, asthma, eczema, many of them are clingy, many of them are hyperactive, many of them are fussy eaters. Fussy eating just universally present amongst these children. And I realized that these children are just as well as their autistic sibling is just that they’ve had a different pregnancy, different constitution so they’re not autistic, but they have problems which stem from the same place – from the digestive system.

And as I started putting whole families on the GAPS diet, on the GAPS nutritional protocol, the parents started recovering from chronic fatigue syndrome, from fibromyalgia, from multiple sclerosis, from allergies, from migraines, from chronic cystitis, from all kinds of problems. As well as the siblings and the autistic children. So I realized that this is one condition that indeed, as Hippocrates put it all those thousands of years ago, all diseases begin in the gut. Every one of them, chronic diseases. We’re not talking about acute situations, of course. We’re talking about chronic diseases. That they all begin in the gut. And that’s where the treatment has to begin.

What we have with these people, they have abnormal gut flora. Recent research discovered the fact that 90% of all cells in the human body are in our gut flora, 90%. So our human bodies are only 10%. It’s a shell, a habitat for this mass of microbes that live inside us. That’s our gut flora. And it is a highly organized microbial world in a healthy person with all kinds of microbes are present there. From the bacteria viruses, protozoa, archaea, worms, flukes, all kinds of things have to be there. Because they’re all part of the harmonious community of microbes. They plant each other. They harvest each other. They eat each other. They control each other. They don’t allow one another to get out of control and start causing trouble. And normally, when you have that balanced community of microbes in there, then you are able to digest the food properly and benefit from that food. And it protects you from all kinds of illnesses. It protects you from any kind of reactions of the immune system. Because 85% of our immune system is located in the gut wall.

Our digestive system is a major immune organ in our body. It’s the biggest and the most important immune organ in the body. So any kind of immune abnormality, whether it is a chronic inflammation, or allergy, or autoimmune disease, or anything else, or histamine intolerance or anything else. Look in the gut. Don’t look anywhere else. Look in the gut first. Because that’s where the majority of the immune system is. That is where all the commanding echelons of our immune system are. All the generals, admirals, officers, the commanding echelons. And that’s where all the major decisions are made, in the gut.

So what happens in GAPS people, they have abnormal gut flora. Because we live in the world, which is literally set on damaging our gut flora from the moment of birth even before then. Antibiotics, and not only prescription antibiotics but antibiotics in our food because majority of agricultural chemicals used by our industrial agriculture, which grows our plant foods and then feeds them to our animals and feeds cows and pigs and sheep and chickens with antibiotics on a daily basis. Because that makes them increase weight quicker, grow quicker, so it’s more profitable. So all the industrially produced food that you buy in supermarkets is full of antibiotics. Chemicals which are antibiotics in their nature. Every time we put food in our mouths, we eat antibiotics. Antibiotics kill bacteria. That’s all they can kill, bacteria. These bacteria were eating and controlling fungi, viruses, protozoa, archaea, and other things. When you knock them out, all these other creatures suddenly are not controlled anymore. The balance is gone in the digestive tract. As it is on the overgrow and instead of being a beneficial member of a balanced community, they suddenly become pathogenic. They become villains. They start producing toxic substances and they start damaging the integrity of the gut wall.

A gut wall in the GAPS person is like a [inaudible 00:13:51], it’s got holes in it. So food doesn’t get the chance to get digested properly before it absorbs through these holes into your blood and into your lymph. And then your immune system finds this undigested food in your blood, in your lymph. It doesn’t recognize them as food and attacks them. And this attack, first and foremost, manifests itself as a food allergy or intolerance. So that can show itself as any kind of symptoms under the sun. It can be a drop in your blood pressure. It can be a drop in your blood sugar level. It can be a migraine attack. It can be an asthma attack. It can be a skin rash. It can be a panic attack. It can be about cystitis or anything else. It can be a heart palpitations. Anything at all.

And the symptoms can be immediate or it can be delayed. So on any given day, you have no idea what you’re reacting to. You might be reacting at the same time to something you’ve just eaten for lunch plus something you’ve eaten yesterday plus something you’ve eaten several days ago plus something you’ve eaten two weeks ago. All these reactions overlap on top of each other. In effect, you’re reacting to pretty much all food that you’re eating. Because all food is absorbing partially digested, improperly digested. You’re absorbing a lot of food undigested and you’re reacting to it.

There are many laboratories in the world which now can do testing for you on this food allergies and intolerances. And they tell you to remove this food and remove that food. And I’ve lost count of people who have taken that out and they started removing foods and removing and removing, then finish up with virtually nothing left to eat. They’ve got a few, literally, a handful of foods that they’re eating and they’re still reacting. Because as long as you got this like [inaudible 00:15:44], you are absorbing everything undigested. You’re reacting to everything.

So in the GAPS nutritional protocol, I don’t even recommend doing this testing, particularly for people who have limited funds. It’s expensive to do testing. We work on healing and sealing the gut lining. We rebuild the gut lining for the person. Because the beautiful fact is that, human body doesn’t waste effort on healing sick cells or damaged cells. If a cell is damaged, if a cell is sick, it is killed and removed. And then new baby cells are to replace it. In order to give birth to this baby cells, building materials are required. And the whole process is ruled and orchestrated by the bacteria, by the microbes. Not just bacteria but the whole microbial community in the gut. This beautiful process is called cell regeneration. And it goes on in every organ, every tissue in the human body. In the gut lining this process is very fast, very rapid. The cells which line our gut will only live a few days. They have a very short life. And they get replaced all the time. New baby cells are born all the time.

The problem is if a person has abnormal gut flora, and it’s the gut flora that is in charge of this process, these newly born baby cells get damaged immediately as soon as they’re born. Even before they mutate and they’re unable to fulfill proper functions of digestion and absorption of food. So what we want to do, at the same time, we want to change the gut flora. We want to drive out pathogens. Replace them with the beneficial flora. Restore the diversity of gut flora. Restore the whole harmonious microbial community in the gut. So this process goes right and this baby cells do not get damaged. At the same time in order for the gut lining to give birth to trillions of cells every day, we provide concentrated amounts of building materials for the body to make the cells from. And that is what the GAPS diet provides for the person.

So in effect, what we’re doing, we’re building new gut wall for the person. We’re healing and selling it. So that is one aspect of what happens to Gaps people.

The second thing that happens to GAPS people, because their gut flora is abnormal, the food that comes along is digested by this pathogenic abnormal community of microbes. And they have their own metabolism. They convert food into wastes, various products. And these products then absorbed for the damaged gut lining and finish up in the bloodstream. Many of them, thousands of them, are done by poisonous pathogenic. They go into the bloodstream. They get distributed around the body and cause havoc in every organ and every tissue. At the same time, these microbes all of them have their own metabolism. They produce hormones. In fact, now they produce so many hormones in such huge amounts that now researchers in gut flora have pronounced our gut flora to be the biggest and the most important endocrine organ in the human body.

The flow of hormones that comes from the gut flora is enormous. And of course, when these hormones finish up in our bloodstream, they regulate our hormonal balance. They talk to your thyroid gland, to your pancreas, to your dreams, to your sexual hormones. And they upset it. They unbalance it. As a result, usually typically GAPS people develop low thyroid function. Their adrenal hormones all over the place. Cortisol is usually high through the roof. So these people are constantly in a stress response. They can’t sleep well. They can’t cope with their stress. They can’t cope with pressure. And their adrenals are not working very well. They get exhausted in this people. And so sex hormones are all over the place. Some are too high, some are too low, the whole thing is dysregulated. And that will produce perimenstrual syndrome. That will produce polycystic ovaries. That will produce dysmenorrhea and various other problems in that area. In men, it will produce also problems in that area. And infertility is one of those problems as well.

And I would mention another problem that I see because I work with children and have been working for the last, almost, 30 years. So many of these children still stay with me. I observe them for a long, long time. Many of these children with abnormal gut flora, have abnormal sexual development due to this flow of hormones. Hormones from their gut flora. Girls are not sure they’re girls. Boys are not sure they’re boys. There are some secondary sexual characteristics which are not quite right, not quite normal. And they’re abnormalities in this area due to this fact.

Another thing that this community of microbes produces in combination with the gut itself are neurotransmitters. We now know that almost 100% of serotonin is produced in the gut and then transported to the brain to be used. About 70% of dopamine is produced in the gut and then sent to the nervous system to be used. Almost 100% of GABA is produced in the gut. And many other endorphins and neurotransmitters. These are chemicals that our nervous system, the cells in our brain and spine, use to communicate between themselves and between each other.

And when the serotonin is low, if your gut is not functioning well, your gut wall is abnormal, it’s unable to produce enough serotonin. If your serotonin is low then you can’t sleep well, you become negative, and you become depressed. You don’t see any joy in life at all. Because to be positive, to be content, we need serotonin.

When there isn’t enough dopamine, it’s a motivational neurotransmitter, that’s another side of depression. When the person is just apathetic. They don’t want to get out of bed. They don’t want to brush their teeth, brush their hair, change their clothes, to wash themselves. What’s the point? This person has no dopamine. Not enough dopamine is being produced.

When there isn’t enough GABA, the person becomes anxious. That is the cause of anxiety in the person and panic attacks.

And the combination, all of these neurotransmitters are very powerful. They have many, many functions in many different organs, not only on the nervous system. They also affect the immune system. They affect how the muscles work and how many, many other organs in the body work. So it’s a disaster just these three aspects of the activity of the gut flora, abnormal hormonal flow, abnormal neurotransmitter flow, and thousands of poisonous chemicals absorbing. All of this situation turns the digestive system of a person into a major source of toxicity in the body.

While the food is not digesting properly, not absorbing properly, and the person developing multiple nutritional deficiencies. When you have abnormal gut flora, you can be eating the best diet in the world, the best quality food in the world. But you are unable to digest it properly, to absorb it properly. And this food is not really benefiting you as a result. So that’s what happens in the GAPS person.

The more we research gut flora, the more we research microbiome – that’s the new term that science has created – the more we realize that there is nothing sterile in the human body. We have microbes living everywhere. Our blood vessels are populated by microbial community. Our blood has microbes in it. Our heart, our lungs, our brain has microbes in it. Our abdominal cavity has its own microbial flora. The uterus in a woman, the tubes in the woman, the ovaries have their own flora. The flora is everywhere.

But the bulk of it, the headquarters of all these microbial community are in the gut. And I believe that it is from the gut that all the major instructions and data and information goes to the rest of the microbiome in the human body – from the gut. So when we fix the gut, when we turn that gut flora back to normal, and when they heal and seal the gut wall, everything else in my clinical experience just fixes itself in the body.

The person might come to me with rheumatoid arthritis. And when I asked them about their digestive system, they say, “Well, I’m okay in that department. No diarrhea, no constipation, no gas, no bloating, no pain. I’m all right.” But when we test their gut flora, we find that it’s abnormal. When we test the permeability of their gut wall, we find that it’s like a safe, everything absorbs undigested and it’s just the flow of toxicity coming through it. And when we put the person on the GAPS nutritional protocol, the rheumatoid arthritis disappears. The person recovers from this disease which is far away from the digestive system and nobody would connect the two.

The same with the mental illness with the brain. Look how high the brain is in the body and where the digestive system is. That is why for a long time nobody connected the two. And with the GAPS nutritional protocol, what we do – and my book has – the GAPS book came out first in 2004. And when it first came out, I lost count of mainstream medical professionals and professors and so on who were telling me that I’m absolutely crazy. That I’m off my rocker saying things like that. That autism has any connection to the digestive system. Or hyperactivity in children or anything else like that. Now we have a number of scientific studies published which are confirming that fact. So the science eventually caught up with us, which is great.

So what happens in an autistic child? From my point of view and from the point of view of many other holistic doctors that I know, ecological doctors, almost 100% of these poor little darlings, these autistic children in the world – we have an epidemic of autism – we’re born with a perfectly normal brain. These were perfectly normal babies.

But what happened to these babies? They acquired abnormal gut flora from the mother. We now know that the child starts acquiring gut flora during pregnancy in utero. Because the woman has uterine flora. She got the flora in her uterus and her placenta. The placenta is populated richly, apparently, by microbes. And that’s where it all begins. So the baby is born already with some microbes populating the whole digestive system, the skin of the child, the eyes of the child, the mucous membranes. But then a large percent of our gut flora comes in into the baby during the moment of birth if the child is born vaginally, if the child is born normally. Because vagina is richly populated area of the woman’s body. And that flora comes from two sources. It comes from her gut flora. So whatever gut flora she has, it travels out of her rectum, into the groin, and populates the vagina.

The second source is the father. If the father has abnormal gut flora, then he’s groin and all the organs in that area will be populated with that abnormal gut flora. And he shares that flora with the mother a regular basis through sexual conduct. So that’s how Mother Nature designed it. So both mommy and daddy pass their gut flora to the child  at the moment of birth.

If the child was born through C-section, then the flora is impoverished. That’s what research shows. That the diversity of microbes in the flora of these children is much, much lower. It’s impoverished because they didn’t go through the vagina. Therefore, it comes from the hands of people who look after the child, from the bottle, from the nipple of the mother. Because the milk ducts in the breasts of the mother are populated by and enriched microbial flora. So breast milk is a probiotic food. It’s rich in beneficial microbes plus all the necessary food to encourage the right kind of microbes to grow in the digestive tract to the child. So breast is still the best without a doubt. If the child on top of that is not breastfed, is bottle fed, then that’s another source of good gut flora eliminated in this child.

So why is it important to understand and know the parents pass their gut flora? Because that is where we find the source of this epidemic of autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, schizophrenia, diabetes type one, allergies, asthma, eczema, and under problems in our children.

About a third of Western children certainly in the United States of America are now being estimated that they will not outlive their parents. Children who were born in the last ten years or so. Because their constitution is so poor and their health is so poor. They just haven’t got the chance, this children. And unfortunately, that proportion of children is growing every year and the situation is getting worse every year. And the same with autism.

When I started practicing when my own child was born, we were diagnosing one child in 10,000 with autism. Today we’re diagnosing one child in 35. And scientists have already projected that line for them. And by 2025, between 2020 and 2025 in the English speaking countries which are on the forefront of this epidemic, they are predicting that one child in two will become autistic.

Half. The other half of our babies will not be healthy either. They will have ADHD, ADD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, schizophrenia, Oppositional Defiant Disorder. The list of various diagnostic labels is growing all the time. Epilepsy, diabetes type one is an absolute epidemic. Absolute epidemic. It is growing through the roof. Rheumatoid arthritis in our babies. Eczema, asthma, allergies, all kinds of health problems. And the proportion of these children is growing.

So what is happening and while this is happening? Before I talk about the health of the child in my clinic, I always talk about the health of the parents first and our grandparents as well, and all the siblings. And out of that information, a typical scenario has emerged. If the grandmother and grandfather were born, let’s say, after the Second World War, they’ve acquired normal healthy gut flora from their parents. Or maybe during the Second World War, they were born. And then antibiotics came onto the market in the 50s, maybe they had one or two courses of antibiotics which damaged their gut flora slightly. It didn’t have any effect on their own health, you know, because the human body is pretty resilient. And then they passed a slightly damaged gut flora to their children at the moment of birth, both the mother and the father. And then these children grew up in a very different world. They grew up in a world where antibiotics were given to them throughout their childhood and youth as sweets for every cough and sneeze, regular courses of antibiotics.

This was the time when the food industry flourished and appeared on the planet. And industrial agriculture appeared on the planet. And then the increasing number of agricultural chemicals being used, many which antibiotics in their nature. This is the time when junk food came onto the market. So a lot of these kids grow up on junk food, processed foods, full of antibiotics, full of chemicals. And then this is the time the generations where the girls will put on the contraceptive pill at the age of 15 or 16, which they took for quite a few years. Because this is the generation again where people started having children later and later in life. So the woman takes this pill for quite a while, quite a few years, before she is ready to have her first child.

Contraceptive pill has a devastating effect on the gut flora and on the immune system of the woman as well. So by the time this generation of people decides to have their first child, they got fully seriously damaged. And that is what they passed to their child at the moment of birth. So these children start their life from a very poor stand, already acquiring abnormal gut flora, abnormal microbiome of the whole body, from their parents. And what I see that every year, this situation is getting worse and worse, deeper and deeper. Those who had their first baby five years ago, passed a little bit better gut flora than young ladies who are having children this year or last year. And it’s accelerating. The whole thing is just accelerating. This is the epidemic of abnormalities in the gut flora that the GAPS epidemic. That is the root cause of all the other epidemics we have, autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, poor vision in the children, epilepsy, diabetes type one, allergies, and so on. And every year the situation is getting worse.


There’s another factor that joined in the last few decades, particularly recently in the last 20 or 25 years, and that is the toxic load that the baby is born with. It sounds cruel. It sounds unfair. But the way Mother Nature designed a woman’s body is that it uses pregnancy as a chance to clean up by dumping toxins into the fetus, into the baby. Our ladies nowadays grow up in the world, they are born into a world where vanity rules. We now have five year old girls dyeing their hair, doing nails, using makeup, all kinds of personal care products usually targeted at female population as well. All these chemicals, the personal care industry, the makeup, the hair, all of this sort of things. Human skin is not a barrier. It’s a sponge. It absorbs everything you put on it in seconds.

And our chemical industry to date has invented some 80,000 or something of new chemicals which don’t exist in nature. And this list is growing all the time. We haven’t even researched the majority of these chemicals. They are not safe. The human body doesn’t know what to do with them. They accumulate in the human body and the body just tucks them away somewhere so they don’t cause damage.

So by the time the lady is ready to have her first child and women have their children later and later in life, majority of women in the Western world now wouldn’t even think about it until they’re 30, even later sometimes. So the longer the woman waits, the more toxicity her body accumulates. And then as soon as she gets pregnant for the first time, her body thinks great, “I’ll clean up.” And it dumps the whole lot into the baby – into the fetus. If that toxicity is enough to kill the baby then the woman will have a miscarriage or a stillbirth. We have an epidemic of miscarriages. The statistics are also growing. But miscarriage is not a happy event. But it is a chance for the woman’s body to clean up. So for the following pregnancy, she’s cleaner. And she will continue having miscarriages until her body is clean enough to provide an environment for producing a viable body for her baby.

If the woman didn’t have enough toxicity in her body, then her baby will be born with a high toxic load, if it wasn’t enough toxicity to kill a fetus, the fetus has survived, but the baby will be born with a high toxic load. And that means this baby has a compromised constitution. This is not going to be a healthy person. A healthy human being born with a high toxic load. And indeed, if you look at the statistics of autism, of ADHD, and other problems, other health problems in children, the vast majority of them are first born in the family. Because the woman cleaned up on the first pregnancy. And the following pregnancies, she had a cleaner body for those and these children were born with a smaller toxic load. As a result, stronger constitution and stronger health, generally speaking. If a woman was exposed to some toxicity between pregnancies, which can happen in our modern world as well, then following pregnancy will also dump a lot of toxicity into the child.

So this is a double whammy for babies nowadays. They’re born with a high toxic load plus they acquire abnormal gut flora. So there are gaps this children. From my point of view, nobody’s researching this. There are no epidemiological studies done on this yet in the world. How many of our babies are born as GAPS? But from my point of view, a vast majority. A growing majority. It is hard to see healthy babies nowadays. Babies are affected in one way or another.

So what happens in this child? The child begins its life with abnormal gut flora. While the child is exclusively breastfed – breast milk is the best food for the baby for many reasons. First of all, it doesn’t mean digesting. It absorbs – the nutrients are all there ready to be absorbed and to nourish the child. It is perfect. Absolutely perfect. Secondly, the milk ducts in the breast populates a beneficial flora. So this is a probiotic food. So while we are exclusively breastfeeding, we are correcting the gut flora in the child getting it better a little bit.

At the same time whatever abnormal gut flora the mother passed to her child, she had for a while herself. So her immune system has developed some defenses against her own gut flora. She would have antibodies. She will have immune complexes against this microbes. And all of this immune complexes and antibodies will be flowing in her milk. Because milk of any animal is the white blood of the female with red blood cells removed. So everything that is in your blood, in the mother’s blood, will be in her milk. And that means all the immune complexes alive and active, alive and active hormones, neurotransmitters, microbes, nutrients and the right kind of biochemical forms so the breast milk is the best. There’s no doubt about it. So while the woman is breastfeeding, she passed her abnormal gut to the child but at the same time through her breast milk she’s providing protection for her baby. So the baby is protected.

The baby might have colic. Colic is the first symptom that the child has abnormal gut flora. It must not be ignored. It’s very important, Colic has become so universal that health [inaudible 00:39:13] pronounced it as normal. Because they just see so many babies with colic. It is not normal. It means that the gut flora is abnormal in the child and it’s producing too much gas. At the same time, inflammation sets in the walls of the digestive tract of the child. When the bubble of gas accumulates somewhere in the digestive tract, it stretches those sore, inflamed walls, and the child has pain. The child has cramps that is why the child is crying. And until that gas gets released, one way or another, or gas moved into a less painful area of the digestive tract, the child will be screaming. So this should be a signal to the parents that the gut flora is abnormal. We must do something to deal with the situation because if we don’t, later on, that can lead towards autism, towards another learning disability or epilepsy or allergies or [inaudible 00:40:05] or something else disastrous for the child. So that is the first thing that happens.

The child may have colic, the child may be crying, may have eczema. Because eczema is a GAPS condition. What happens? A lot of this toxicity that absorbs from the digestive tract has to be removed from the body somehow. And sweat is a major way to eliminate things out of the body. So when these toxins come out in sweat, they cause irritation on the skin. There is a flora on the skin. The microbes interact with those toxins. They try to initialize them, eat them, or maybe convert them into something even more toxic. That’s a possibility. And of course the immune system is going to join the whole party. When the immune system joins the whole party, that’s when you get the redness, the swelling, the itchy scratchy patches on the skin. Only when the immune system joins in. Because it’s not the toxins and not the microbes that caused the symptoms, It’s the immune system trying to deal with that situation that causes the red, the hot, the itchy, and the painful patches on the skin. So that’s what eczema is. The root of it isn’t the gut. That’s where the toxicity comes from. So when we heal and seal the gut, eczema disappears.

And I have thousands of children who healed from eczema very nicely when they followed the GAPS nutritional protocol. So this baby – let’s come back to this exclusively breastfed baby, the baby might be crying because of colic. The baby might have eczema. But the baby is growing, developing, nobody is particularly concerned. But when solids are introduced or formula is added to the breast milk regimen. And formula, now we have studies to show that even occasional bottle or formula changes the gut flora in the child towards pathogenic end.

So we really need to work on exclusively breastfeeding our babies and avoiding all commercial formulas because they do our babies no good. This is a dead powder made of processed synthetic things, which do nothing good for the baby whatsoever. So breastfeeding, breast is the best.

And many women who do not produce enough milk or have some problems with breastfeeding, they ask me, “What do I do? If I can’t feed formula, what do I do?” What we need to do in our human societies – modern human society is to resurrect thousands of years old practice. Because formula only existed in the world for a few decades. What did women do for thousands of years when a girl can’t produce enough milk for her baby? There will be other women around who are breastfeeding their babies, they will feed her baby for her. And that was called wet nursing. We need to bring that practice back. That is the only viable and the only proper thing to do for our babies. Not to run to the pharmacy and buying formula.

So what I recommend to all pregnant girls who go to antenatal classes, I tell them, “You single out. If you pregnant ladies there who look healthy, speak to them and say let’s form a group.” Because you never know what happens. Giving birth is the most dangerous thing a woman can do in her life. It’s completely unpredictable. You can prepare in the best possible way. You don’t know what’s going to happen. Really, it is from the experience of obstetricians. They will confirm that experience. “So let’s form a group, girls. If one of us cannot breastfeed for whatever reason, we will feed that baby, we will share our milk.”

Many women when they breastfeed produce so much milk, they can feed more than one baby. Definitely. I was one of those women. When I was breastfeeding my two babies, I could breastfeed five, no doubt about it. I had so much milk. And it was very, very rich. I would have been perfectly happy to share. So there are many women like that. And that’s what we need to do. We need to create these communities of wet nursing to support each other and to support our babies. Because no matter how clever and how well the formula is marketed, no formula in the world will ever come close to the quality of the breast milk of a woman. So that’s what we need to be doing.

And what happens to these babies with abnormal gut flora when the solids are introduced? That’s when their pathogenic microbes suddenly get the feast. You know, and usually it’s baby rice or processed powdered milk or anything else processed for these babies. And so they feast on that and they start manufacturing all their toxins and all the abnormal hormones go in and other things go in. And that’s where real problems begin in the child.

And many children nowadays instinctively learn that solids are not good for them. Anything apart from mommy’ breasts, everything else they just diffuse these babies. Because maybe when they were given the first solid or the first formula milk or anything else, the child got a tummy ache or maybe got a headache or maybe got pain in the joints or pain in the muscles. The baby can’t explain this to you. But the baby learns that anything but mommy’s breasts hurts me. I’m not going to have it. They refuse it.

It is rare for a human child to continue thriving exclusively on breast milk past the age of nine months, ten months, maybe on average. That’s when children start losing weight. And the development starts slowing down and everybody gets concerned. And that’s when the child gets diagnosed with failure to thrive in this situation. And the mainstream does all sorts of terrible things. These children have a tube through their nose and fed synthetic formulas through the nose and all sorts of things like that. And if that continues, the child will develop severe profound physical and mental disability.

What we do with these children, we put them on the first stage of the GAPS introduction diet. We start with meat stock for these babies. [Inaudible 00:46:22] boil chicken. We get organic chicken, boil the whole chicken in about two or three liters of water, and we start with that meat stock. The meat stock is warm. It is soothing. It is healing for this baby. So what the mother does when the baby is ready to eat, is not stressed, the baby needs to be happy and calm. There’s no crying, no pain anywhere. And before you give the breast to the child, you give the child one teaspoon of this warm chicken stock. Just put it in the child’s mouth and let the baby swallow it. What we’re doing with teaching the child that the spoon is safe. Because at some point the child learn that spoon is dangerous. That anything coming off the spoon gives me pain. I’m not going to have anything from the spoon or from the beaker or from the bottle or anything else. We’re re-teaching the child that the spoon is safe. And the beaker is safe and the bottle is safe by using this warm soothing healing meat stock.

And we’ll start with a small achievable target, one teaspoon before the breast is given. So before every breastfeeding, we give one teaspoon until one teaspoon is not a problem. Then we move to two teaspoons before every breastfeeding. Then three teaspoons and so on until we start using a bottle, start using a beaker, and the child has a good amount of this meat stock before every breastfeeding. When that’s not a problem, then we’ll take the skin, the fat, a little bit of brown meat of the wings and the legs of that chicken that we made the meat stock and blend into the bouillon into the stock. And this is only for soup. So we’ll make that soup gradually thicker and thicker and thicker. So the child is having the stock and and the chicken itself. And the most valuable parts of the skin of the chicken and the fat of the chicken and a little bit of brown meat. Not the breasts.

And then if that’s not a problem anymore and that has become a normal part of the child’s daily routine, having this little soup, then we start adding some vegetables to the soup. We cook them well. We start with non-starch vegetables. This is described in my book – in my GAPS book, that is part four there, about preconception and new baby. Where there is a diet on new baby. That’s how we deal with that situation.

Learning disabilities and other serious physical problems usually develop when breastfeeding stops in the baby. Because the breast milk was providing protection from these disabilities. Despite the fact that the child has acquired abnormal gut flora. The child has colic, has eczema maybe, has other problems, but as long as the breast milk is provided, it provides protection. Because we can’t live with colic and many parents wouldn’t mind – you know, I’m not so concerned about eczema even compared to autism. Autism was a far more disastrous situation than any of those other situations. So nobody wants that. So what I recommend for these families, if you know that your gut flora is abnormal, if you know that your child already has a colic, has eczema, or has something wrong with the gut flora, breastfeed for as long as you can. Two, three, four years. Even once a day, a little supplement of breast milk will do wonders. It will boost the immune cell status of the child. It will provide the right nutrition. It will provide healing substances for the gut lining. It will provide probiotic microbes for the child. Just don’t stop breastfeeding until you’re sure your child is doing well. And in the meantime, follow the GAPS nutritional protocol to heal the gut, to heal the immune system, to normalize and rebalance the hormonal system in the child, neurotransmitter production, and immune function. Everything in the child will straighten up on the GAPS nutritional protocol.

There’s another very serious situation that is fairly modern. It’s a new diagnostic label called a FPIES. There are now variations of this diagnostic label. And that is a Food Protein-Induced Enterocolitis in the child. Basically, what we have here, we have a child with such damaged gut wall with big holes in the gut wall. So all protein in this child absorbs undigested. And these are the children who are often exclusively breastfed. Breast milk goes in, diarrhea comes out, and the child i’s not putting weight, vomiting, diarrhea, vomiting, diarrhea. Everybody gets concerned. The doctors test this child and find that the child is allergic to all proteins on the planet. So the woman is told to stop breastfeeding. As a result, the child is put on an elemental soy formula, which is terrible. And the parents are told, “You can’t give your child any protein. Just give them some bold carrots or something. And that’s it.” And then, you know, the doctors tell them to look for veganism for the rest of their lives.

So what we do with these babies? I have a growing group of these babies in the world. We have now a support group amongst parents, wonderful mothers, wonderful, just absolute heroes mothers who have healed their own children and now helping hundreds of other babies in the world with this terrible situation.

We start with meat stock with these babies. Lots of protein. But what we’re doing with this meat stock, we’re building a new gut wall for the baby. And until that new gut wall is built, vomiting, diarrhea might continue. The child might continue reacting. But we have to, there is no other path, there is no other way. And this children do recover. They have to stay on the GAPS diet then pretty much for life. For many, many, many years until we’re absolutely sure that the person is healthy and robust. Only then you can try and introduce things which are not allowed on the GAPS diet. But there are now many children in the world who recovered from this condition. This are GAPSters children. And many other health problems. So this is the first year that we talked about.

Now let’s move into the second year of the GAPS children. That is the year when they develop autism, hyperactivity, dyslexia, dyspraxia, diabetes type one, and other learning disabilities and other physical problems. Because that’s usually is the year when the breastfeeding stops and the child is on solids. And the child can digest that food. Their digestive tract is a source of toxicity. How do babies learn? How do children learn how to be a human being in this world? Because they need to learn that sort of thing. They learn through using their senses, their eyes, the ears, their tactile sensitivity, their sense of smell, sense of taste, and other senses. So what does sensory organs do? They collect information from the environment. Just observe babies. They listen to everything. They stare at everybody. They touch everything. They take everything in their mouth. They’re using their sensory organs to collect information from the environment. And then this information is passed to the brain to be processed. And from this processing, the brain learns. Now, “This is mommy. This is daddy. This is a toy. I play with it like this. This is food I eat. These are the children, I copy them.” And that’s how human beings develop. That’s how a baby learns to be a human being.

But in our GAPS children, their brain is clogged with toxicity. That proof of toxicity coming out of the gut gets into the brain of the child and clogs it with toxins. This brain cannot process this information from the sensory organs appropriately. All this information comes into a mush, into a noise in the brain. And depending how much toxicity is in the brain, what kind of toxicity the character with, the child will develop symptoms. If it’s the most severe situation, the child will become autistic. If it’s less severe and there are bits and pieces here and there, the child may become hyperactive or develop attention deficit disorder or dyslexia or dyspraxia or schizophrenia, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, strange fits, strange ticks, and epilepsy.

Epilepsy is a safety valve for the brain. When the brain accumulates too much toxicity and it senses that this toxicity is physically damaging to the tissue of the brain. Remember, these children were born with a perfectly normal brain. This was a perfectly normal brain. But of course, years and years of bombardment of the brain by this toxins will cause physical damage to the brain. And a proportion of these children, the brain develops a cleansing procedure, a safety valve. It sends one electric discharge through or a number of electric charges, and burns the whole lot of toxins out. It cleanses itself. But clinically that manifests itself as an epileptic seizure. We have known that epileptic seizures are cleansing for the brain for the last 200 years from classical psychiatry. There are many descriptions of that and that’s what classical psychiatry understood. So the last thing these children need is another toxin added to the whole load of toxicity in the brain in the form of antibiotic medication. All it does is suppresses the brain activity. So the longer the child is on this medication, the more they are unable to learn and they become – they develop learning disability and they become just couch potatoes. Their personality changes in these children.

What we want is to subtract toxins from the brain. Not to add more. There are dangerous forms of epilepsy. But the child is having several grand mal seizures a day. That’s when the medication is life saving. Because an epileptic seizure can kill a child. But majority of children are not in that category. Majority of children had one seizure and then no seizures for many months. No epileptic activity for many months afterwards. And yet they’re put on medication. My dream is that one day our medical professional will be putting them on the GAPS state. Because I have many, many children around the world who recovered from epilepsy with the GAPS diet. Because what we do with the GAPS diet, the GAPS nutritional protocol will clean the gut, drive out pathogens, reestablish normal harmonious balanced community of microbes in the gut, and we heal and seal the gut wall.

As a result that wave of toxicity coming from the gut stops. And when it stops, the brain cleans itself. Human body has an amazing ability to clean itself. Every cell, every tissue has a cleaner in it, which is very busy and constantly cleaning itself. The headquarters of this cleaning detoxification system is in the liver and departments in every cell of the human body. So the human body and the brain has a beautiful ability to cleanse itself to get rid of toxicity. We just have to stop these toxins from coming in. And in order to do that, we have to heal the gut. Because if your tap in the kitchen is leaking and you have a puddle on the floor ,what do you do first? Do you start mopping the puddle or do you deal with the tap first? It’s a good idea to fix the tap first and then mop the puddle. So by fixing the gut, we’re fixing the tap in the kitchen – the leaky tap. And once the leak stops then we can mop the paddle and be done with the situation.

So as far as the brain is concerned, in my opinion, all mental illness – all of it – schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, addictions, depression, epilepsy, any kind of mental illness, panic attacks, memory problems are GAPS conditions. They’re all coming from the digestive system from my clinical experience, from everything I know, and all learning disabilities and children. So whenever there are any mental symptoms in any person, the first thing we need to do urgently, get on the GAPS diet immediately.

But when this river of toxicity gets to other organs in the body, it will cause disease on those as well. And number one thing that happens in many tissues and organs – and that is a collagen disorder. I call it GAPS collagen disorder. I’m finishing my second GAPS book, the Gut and Physiology book. Hopefully, it will come out next year. If I get enough time to see fit. And I described this condition in there – in that book. What happens? About a third of all protein in the human body is collagen. It’s an elastic protein that holds the human body together, pretty much. It’s made out of fibers, long fibers. The skeleton of your muscle, the skeleton of your bones are made out of collagen. All fissures, all ligaments, capsules of the joints, every joint and all the materials that the joints are made, the cartilage, the synovial fluid, the capsule of the joint, all the ligaments and all the supportive structures are collagen largely. So it is a very, very important part in the human body. The problem with it is that, it is an absolute magnet for toxicity for toxins. This toxic river that is absorbing from the digestive tract of a GAPS person. Many of these toxins are attracted to collagen. They attach themselves to these molecules. And that changes the three dimensional structure of collagen.

Our immune system goes around the body surveying it all the time. What it finds, this change molecules of collagen. It looks at them and says, “You’re not mine. I don’t recognize you as mine. You must be some something foreign that got in.” And initially the immune system would use off the shelf response which is always ready, always there on the shelf, and that is inflammation. It will cause inflammation in that area. What inflammation does, it kills the enemy and cleans the site.  That is its function. It will remove this toxicity. It will clean that place up. So if this influx of toxicity was temporary, and not very heavy, you may get about inflammation somewhere. And inflammation always comes with pain. It’s red, it’s hot, it’s swollen and the function is limited. So that might happen in your knee or your elbow or your thumb or your spine, in your – you’ll get lumbago, you’ll get a backache, back pain. That is a major, major cause of back pain because our spine is a whole collection of tiny little joints. It’s made out of lots and lots of little joints. The spine, lots of collagen.

But if this situation is not temporary, if this toxicity is coming all the time, and the immune system has been using inflammation for many, many days, the immune system will have enough time then to study these changed molecules of collagen and start producing antibodies against them. And you’ve got an autoimmune disease. That’s when your temporary bouts of arthritis turned into rheumatoid arthritis, osteoarthritis, or another form of autoimmune arthritis. If this situation happened in your lungs because the lungs are full of collagen, then you may get asthma, you may get obstructive pulmonary disease, or another problem with your lungs. If the situation happens in your heart, and the heart has lots of collagen in it because heart valves are largely collagen. The strings that are attached to the heart walls, the inside lining of the heart has a lot of collagen in it, and the muscle of the heart itself and the capsule of the heart,. Then you can get palpitations and you can get heart problems. So wherever this sort of situation happens, it becomes chronic and there is an autoimmune component as well as inflammation going on in the body.

Many of our GAPS children have that situation pretty much from birth. That is why these children usually have loose weak joints. They are double jointed. They have flat feet. They stumble on a perfectly level floor and hurt themselves all the time. These children, because their joints are loose because the collagen that is holding the joint together is being destroyed by our own immune system by autoimmunity. The [inaudible 01:03:01] has become loose in this person so these children and adults can develop hernias. All our organs inside our bodies are hanging on big sheets of collagen. These are the things that are holding them hanging in the right place. They all sag down quite often. They hang low and these people. And that can cause the problems with the function of these organs. And because our blood vessels are largely made out of collagen, these people get very weak blood vessel walls and they bruise easily.

There are many people with GAPS who say that, “I bruise so easily. I just pick something up and I’ve got a bruise on my hand.” I just have to bump a little bit into something and they get the great big bruise. The wall of your blood vessels is very weak because you have a collagen disorder. That’s what happens in these patients, they are called GAPS collagen disorder because the toxicity is coming out of the digestive system of the person.

Wherever these toxins get you, they will cause disease, neurological illness, multiple sclerosis, neuropathies, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, DM [inaudible 01:04:11] or any other neurological – chronic neurological disorder. Fibromyalgia can be put into that category as well because these people have neuropathies as well.

The skeleton of every peripheral nerve in our body is collagen. And if that collagen inflamed and under autoimmune attack, of course, there will be symptoms. There will be problems. I have many patients with neuropathies who have recovered on the GAPS nutritional protocol.

Energy production in the body also suffers when people have so much toxicity coming out of the gut. The energy in the human body is produced by organelles in every so-called mitochondria, our little energy factories. They’re very effective mitochondria. They produce a lot of energy per unit of glucose or unit of fat that they burn to produce energy. The problem is the process is dirty. The things that shoot out of these mitochondria into the cell are free radicals. This wild oxygen species which can damage a lot of things in the cell. Because this process was designed by Mother Nature over billions of years, the cell has a way of dealing with that situation. It produces antioxidants to deal with this free radicals immediately. It produces lipoic acid, glutathione, vitamin C, and other things, other antioxidants. And the whole thing is ticking nicely.

The problem is, our mitochondria very vulnerable to toxicity coming out of the gut. They get damaged by toxins. And many cells also die. Many cells in the body not only mitochondria but many cells in the body get damaged in the human body. So the energy production starts reducing. The person starts getting fatigue. The person starts getting tired from ordinary or normal activities. They have to rest and pace themselves. And what happens at a certain point in the body? There is a central command that comes from the brain. When the brain senses that enough cells in the body are dying from this toxicity, enough mitochondria being damaged, a central command descend from the brain to shut all mitochondria down. Why does that happen?

And that is the day when the person can’t get out of bed. They become more chair bound at that point. They can breathe. They can just about, you know, live, but they can’t do anything. They can’t function – these people – because there isn’t enough energy.

What happens in this situation? When many cells are dying in the body because of toxicity get destroyed. The human body has to produce lots of baby cells to replace them. Lots and lots. The body becomes broody. It starts producing lots of babies. In order to produce a baby, a cell has to unwrap its genetic material. Its chromosomes which are hidden inside the nucleus of the cell behind a very thick wall. Why it is hidden behind a thick wall? Because our genes, our chromosomes, are extremely vulnerable to free radical damage. And all these free radicals shooting out the mitochondria inside the cell, they can damage our genetic material. When the cell wants to produce a baby, it has to dissolve that wall, make its chromosomes make it inside the cell, divides them into two, build two nuclei, build a wall around those nuclei to protect them, and then divide and produce a baby – produce a baby cell. So while that process is going on, what the cells do? They shut down their mitochondria. They can’t allow them to work. They can’t allow this production of free radicals in the cell.

And while mitochondria are shut down, the cell uses a very old archaic way of production of energy, which comes from evolution, which will allow the cell to divide, will allow it to breathe, but will not allow it to do anything else. It’s archaic. It’s very old. It producers only a little bit of energy that’s not enough to really function to the full capacity. But because the cells divide quite quickly, it only takes a few minutes. As soon as the baby is produced, mitochondria switched on again. And this process worked for us beautifully for thousands of years, possibly millions of years. But what happens when the person is so toxic and so many cells are dying, and so many babies need to be produced? At a certain point, the brain perceives this situation. It keeps a tab on everything going on in the body. And with the central command, it shuts down all mitochondria. And the body starts functioning on that archaic, old way of producing energy in the cytoplasm of the cell. Which will allow you to breathe, to stay alive, but will not allow you to jump out of bed, to make breakfast for your children, to take them to school, to go and work, or do anything else. And this is chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, myalgic encephalomyelitis, and some other conditions where the person suffers from severe fatigue.


So how do we help these people? What do we need to do? It’s toxicity that’s killing them. And where is that leaky tap where toxicity is coming from? The gut. We need to fix that tap first. We need to fix the gut first. We need to be on the GAPS diet for many, many years. Sometimes for the rest of the person’s life. Because this is a very serious situation. Once we fix the gut and that waive of toxicity stops, the leaky tap is fixed. Then the body moves up the puddle on the floor. Removes the toxicity. And as the toxins are being removed from the body, the body becomes cleaner and cleaner. At a certain point the brain perceives that situation and it takes off that command, it switches on the mitochondria. And that’s a beautiful day usually for the person because they wake up in the morning and they’ve got enough energy to actually get out of bed and maybe go and brush their teeth, you know,  or brush their hair, or have a shower, or something else like that. The next day, a little bit more energy. Next week a bit more energy. And gradually they regain their normal energy production.

But in order to get to that point, to the point of actually producing energy, first we need to spend time on healing the gut. And that can take a year or a couple of years, it can take time, depending how severe the situation is in the human body. Generally speaking, with all of this severe chronic conditions, the disease has been building up and developing in a person in less. It’s like an onion this whole disease. First, the first layer was developed. And then the second layer developed on top of that. And then another layer. And the healing will go in the reverse order. The body will decide what’s the priority number one, then what’s the priority number two, was the priority number three. And the body has to deal with the priority number one first until it’s done. Only then the body can have a little break, a little respite. And that’s the time when the person feels really well. They really feel well. And then the body decides it’s good enough resources. Enough strength now to attack the layer number two, the second priority. And that’s when new symptoms develop. That’s when the person feels ill again.

Don’t be disheartened if you were on the GAPS nutritional protocol for a year and you got better, much, much better. However, not all your health problems are gone yet. And then suddenly you feel worse again. Your body got to the second layer of the onion. It’s dealing with another second priority. And it could not deal with it before because it had to do with the first priority first. And it’s your body that is doing the healing. The human body has a wonderful ability to heal itself. All the healing mechanisms are programmed into our body. All we have to do is allow the body to do that work without us attacking it with clever inventions, pharmaceuticals or anything else.

Just let the body work and give it all the resources. Give it the right food. Give it enough rest. Give it a positive mental attitude. Give it, maybe, meditation. Give it fresh air. Give it a nice gentle walk in the fresh air every day. And loving, nurturing environment. We each live [inaudible 01:12:44]. You need to have love around you. People who are positive and loving and supportive. All those aspects are important for healing for the human body.

The diet is a huge subject. We probably don’t have time for it in this interview. It’s described in great detail in my book, the Gut And Psychology Syndrome Book. And it’s also described in great detail on my website The diet, how to implement it. And GAPS nutritional protocol is not just a diet. It also has some supplements in it. And it has lifestyle changes. So it’s a problem. So the whole program needs to be done by the person.



[1:13:24] Ashley James: When you first did it with your son when he was three years old and he was diagnosed with autism and you started as we’ve started to really like dive into this for him and do this, the GAPS diet with him, what kind of changes did you see?



[01:13:40] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: He’s now an adult. He’s 26 years old now. And he’s fully recovered. He’s leading a normal life. So he was my first teacher. In fact, I believe that children come to us as teachers. We are just teaching them to mind and mundane things you know, how to dress, how to walk, how to drive and so on. While they teach us the most profound universal truths. They make us better human beings. They make us grow and force us to grow. So he was my biggest teacher in my life. And we started the diet when he was three. And by the age of five, he went to the mainstream school with support. About 95% of success we have achieved in the first two years. And then the rest, 5% of the healing, happened over the next five or six years gradually. They were the most difficult bits, obviously, to get rid of.

Apart from the GAPS nutritional protocol, we did the ABA program, Applied Behavior Analysis. And I’m a great advocate of this protocol of this program. Because what happens with autistic children, children learn certain skills at a certain age. That’s how our brain is programmed. From the moment of birth, from the moment of conception, we follow a certain program that has been put in, I don’t know when, I don’t know by who. Because it’s not just genetic. It’s not just genes. Far from it. So it’s a divine extremely complex problem. And as a child is born, they have to learn certain skills at a certain age. That’s when the program that you learn that. A certain window of opportunity. We have to learn to walk around the age of one. We have to learn to speak around the age of two. Then in the following years, we’ll learn syntaxes and grammar. And finally, of the language and social skills and the rest of it. And if the child missed that window of opportunity of learning that skill, they may not learn that skill themselves later on. You have to teach it. And you have to teach it. You have to break that skill into the tiniest possible steps and teach them systematically starting with the simple most fundamental step until that’s mastered. Then build on that. The second step then build on that. The third step. And the only problem that I know that is thorough like that, like a fine tooth comb is the Applied Behavior Analysis. There are other programs out there. But it’s only this protocol that, in my experience, produces the right results with autistic children.

So with these children, it isn’t enough to just fix the body. We have to teach them all the skills that they’ve missed. That is why the younger the child is when we put them on the GAPS nutritional protocol, the quicker they recover and the more fully they recover. Because first of all, the brain wasn’t bombarded that long with toxicity to cause physical damage to it. And secondly, because the child missed less on its development, less windows of opportunity have been missed by the child. It’s easier for them to catch up. Easier for them to fill those gaps. And that usually, you know, children recover fully up to the age of four-and-a-half, maybe maximum five. It’s very individual, obviously, in every child. Older than that, what usually remains? Some percent of it remains. Though I did have some cases where children recovered remarkably well,  95%, 90%, which is most grown. There was just some idiosyncrasies left, some quirks left maybe. But the child could function and live in this world and be a full member of the human society.

So it depends. It’s very individual. But at any age of autism, I will do the GAPS nutritional protocol. I will put these children and adults on the diet for the rest of their life. I used to say that children can come off the diet at some point. Now, with all the experience that I have accumulated I recommend everyone autistic child to stay on the diet strictly for the rest of their life. When they fully recovered occasionally, when you go on holiday, maybe you can cheat a little bit. But then when you’re back home back, back to normal, back to the GAPS diet because that would prevent any illnesses, that will prevent any relapses, that will prevent any regressions and any problems whatsoever. And just make this person very healthy and well and functioning. Functioning on the top of their capacity and developing on the top of their capacity.

So what I recommend to all parents, when something is wrong with your child, don’t wait for the diagnostic label. The label will do nothing for your child. It will not help in any possible way. And doctors can take a very long time – an awful long time to give you a diagnosis. Your parents, in your heart you know something’s wrong. You know something’s not quite right with your child. Start the GAPS nutritional protocol. Start the GAPS diet immediately. And chances are, in a few weeks there will be no need for any diagnostic label. If you’ve got an autistic child who is two or two-and-a-half, a few weeks thereof, you don’t even need to do ABA with them. They’re learning themselves. They’re diverting themselves. They’re off. They’re developing. Maybe we’ll need to work a little bit on some skills but not as intensively as the ABA requires.

So the younger the child is, it’s particularly good to start it when the child is 18 months old. You know, because even at 18 months old with autistic children, you already know something’s wrong. Something’s not quite working. The eye contact is not there. He’s not responding to his name. He’s not pointing. He’s not saying anything. He’s not understanding language. Not understanding commands. It’s clear, something’s not quite right with that child. Start the GAPS diet and chances are you will not needing a diagnostic label and you will not need to do anything else with that child.

Children with hyperactivity, with dyslexia, dyspraxia, and other learning disabilities do very well on the GAPS nutritional protocol with these children. Because there isn’t the same cognitive deficit in the child. He may not need to do any special teaching problem with the child. You just put the physical body right, clean up the brain, allow the brain to function the way it’s supposed to, and the child will be off developing, developing normally the way the child should develop.



[1:20:21] Ashley James: Brilliant. Now, I know in your book you have a chapter dedicated to children that are picky eaters, fussy eaters. Because I know parents are like, “Well, how am I going to get my kids to do this?” So I know that that’s in the book. I definitely encourage listeners to get the book.



[1:20:37] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Absolutely.  Absolutely. Fussy eating is a normal symptom on GAPS. It is a part and parcel of GAPS. What happens with these children? The food that they’re eating is converted into millions of toxic substances by the abnormal gut flora. But this microbes in the gut are clever. Part of that toxicity, they make in the form of endorphins. Chemicals that give the brain the pleasure signal. So the brain wants more. So your little adorable darling is a drug addict. The drug is produced in the gut by the abnormal gut flora for this child. So the child is trapped in the typical drug addiction, vicious cycle, when they love and want and limit their diet to the very foods that hurt them, damage their brain, and damage them, and caused their disorder. So if any of you ever read about how difficult it is to try to treat a drug addict, you would realize just how difficult it is to treat them. Your child is going to fight you every step on the way. Pulling a drug addict out of that vicious cycle is hard work. The parents must be united on this issue. The mommy and daddy, grandparents, grandmothers in particular, need to be united on this issue. It takes two adults in the first week or two to break the child out of that vicious cycle. And the child will fight you every step of the way. Be prepared for that. So you have to be strong. You have to stand there like a rock. And that grandma must be like a rock or a daddy or any other member of the family that is helping you.

So what we do, we sit the child down. We make that beautiful meat stock with the chicken or lamb or beef or anything else. And we sit the child down. One adult is standing behind the chair with a big smile on his face, making sure the child cannot leave the situation. The child cannot jump up and run away from the table. Just hold him down gently, nicely, with a smile. The mother is feeding. I will start with a small achievable target, one teaspoon of this meat stock for a reward.

For any child that is verbal and for whom any nonfood reward works, be it a computer game or a favorite video or a favorite book or a favorite game or horses around the house or peekaboo, whatever, whatever works for this particular child, use that as a reward. To swallow that one meaty little teaspoon of the meat stock. As soon as the child swallowed it, we’ll give the child the reward. But most importantly, this is reward has to come with over exaggerated praise from the parents. The parents to explode in happiness. Then you should give the child a complete circus performance in happiness. Throw him up in the air, kiss him, hug him, tickle him, whatever works and then let them go. Let them leave the situation. Let them wander around, play, whatever he wants for five minutes. After five minutes back to that chair, we sit down again, another teaspoon. And we work like that all day until the teaspoon is not a problem anymore wit the child. Quite often children love the circus from the parents so much. It’s so nice for them to have the circus. They will do just for that without any rules. That’s a reward enough for them. The circus from the parents, they always exaggerated praise.

When one teaspoon is not the problem anymore, the child just swallows it and gets the circus and gets the reward, we want two teaspoons for the same reward. And then three teaspoons. And then push and push and push more and more and more until the child has a whole bowl of this stock. And then we start adding that chicken to that stock. And then we start adding vegetables and the rest is history. We just keep working at it and your fussy eater that wouldn’t be anything but from his biscuits or his sweets or whatever it is, in a in a week will be eating everything including liver, fish soup, you know, anything. Absolutely.



[1:24:37] Ashley James: I love it. Now, what if the child or the adult is allergic to some of the foods on the GAPS diet. My son who – I mean I am absolutely going to put him on the GAPS diet starting today. He has asthma. Definitely induced by what he’s allergic to. He’s allergic to dust mites and there’s about seven foods he’s allergic to. We’re gluten free, dairy free household from birth. And he eats organic and he eats really clean. And so we’ve never – we couldn’t figure out why. And he had colic as a baby. And I couldn’t produce enough breast milk. So I got donated breast milk from as many mothers as I could. And when we ran out, we supplemented with formula but he had colic. Everything you said in this interview is exactly what my son’s been going through. And now here he is, four-and-a-half years old. He has asthma. If he’s a eats avocado or egg or has an exposure to dairy – because we’re allergic – the whole family is allergic to dairy – and garlic, fish, any kind of fish will throw him into an asthmatic attack and his histamines through the roof. So these foods that are very healthy foods, very healing foods, his body’s reacting to. So what do you tell parents when they want to put their child on the GAPS diet but they are allergic to some of these foods?



[1:25:59] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: The only allergy that we truly respect is anaphylactic typology, because that’s life threatening. It’s very, very dangerous. Or other allergies are due to the leaky gut. To that porous leaky gut wall. Obviously, if there is no anaphylactic reaction, let’s say, to dairy. And the only dairy that we use are well-fermented dairy that were ferment at home for 24 hours. When you ferment the milk and the milk is raw, it’s essential [inaudible 01:26:24]. It’s very, very important. When the fermented milk for 24 hours is predigested, the microbes in the milk they eat all the lactose because microbes like eating sugars, so that is a truly lactose free product. All the proteins, casein, the albumins, and other proteins are predigested, broken down in this product. So it is a very different product from milk, from any dairy that you bought or from a yogurt or [inaudible 01:26:53] that you bought in the supermarket, in the shop. When you fermented at home for 24 hours, it’s a very different product.

And with all of this, if there is something that your child reacts to, initially avoid these things. Because there’s enough other foods in the diet to focus upon. But then gradually try them. And first start with the ones which do not cause any anaphylactic reaction. Obviously, anaphylactic reactions need to be respected for quite a bit. But in about a year or so, the immune system will rebalance itself. We will nourish the immune system, nurture it, it will rebalance itself. It will be a completely different immune system in the child. And you may be surprised to find that when you try a tiny, tiny amount of the food that the child had an anaphylactic reaction to, there is no reaction anymore.

I had a number of children who recovered peanut allergy. Yes. Anaphylactic reactions disappear. They can also be healed. Because they obsolete sort of information that the body remembers. But the body recovers and it rebuilds itself and the immune system is very different in this children. So it is possible to recover even from those. But the reactions that non-anaphylactic, they’re all due to the leaky gut. Generally speaking, we ignore them. We ignore them and we focus on healing and rebuilding the gut wall.



[1:28:17] Ashley James: What about collagen powder? This is a big fad right now. Getting powdered bone broth and powdered collagen supplements. What do you think about those?



[1:28:30] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: I don’t. I do not like supplements, particularly. The only supplements we use in the GAPS nutritional protocol, [inaudible 01:28:36]. So described in my book. The supplement industry is a multibillion industry and they will all try to convince you that you need to take the supplement for the rest of your life and you can’t live without it. This meat stock that they’re making with joints and bones of animals will provide you in one bowl of soup with a whole bottle of those capsules of collagen.

Large amounts and it is natural and it is fresh and it is properly digestible. And it will it will do what it’s supposed to do in the body. And it comes with all the cofactors.



[1:29:14] Ashley James: I have a technical question about cooking. The chicken, for example, let’s say people are starting phase one with the whole chicken. Instead of slowly simmering it on the stove for several hours, what about using the Instant Pot? The electric pressure cooker –



[1:29:31] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: No, I don’t recommend that.



[1:29:33] Ashley James: You don’t recommend that. So you recommend just traditional. The old way. We got to do it the way grandma taught us.



[1:29:38] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Exactly. It’s two hours – for a chicken, it’s two hours. It’s not that long. You just put the whole chicken. It’s best to get also the neck, the head, the feet of the chicken. That would be wonderful. The giblets will be great to put in there. The whole chicken and about three liters of water to it, some salt, and simmer it for a couple of hours until the chicken is soft. You can eat that chicken. It’s delicious. And the stock will be clear absolutely delicious. Every child loves it once they’ve tasted it.



[1:30:09] Ashley James: And you don’t add any seasonings when you start. It’s just the chicken?



[1:30:13] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Just the salt. Just the chicken and the salt. And the salt needs to be natural. Himalayan Crystal Salt or Celtic salt, you know, natural unprocessed salt which has all the minerals in it. Nothing has been taken out of that salt. Completely natural. You can add some vegetables to eat at the beginning if you want to. You can add a whole onion, you can add the carrot to it if you want you to, to make that stock richer. Some people do that.



[1:30:46] Ashley James: Have you seen people heal things like diabetes, heart disease or issues of the gut like small intestinal bacterial overgrowth or Candida with this diet?



[1:30:54] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Absolutely. All those gut. I have written a book called Put Your Heart In Your Mouth. What really causes heart disease? What I explain what causes heart disease, because it’s not cholesterol and not animal fats the cause heart disease. That is all based on a faulty hypothesis, which has been proposed in 1953. And since then it was proven to be completely wrong, by solid, honest science. The problem is that, while the science was working on this hypothesis, a very powerful and very wealthy, commercial, and political machine grew based on this hypothesis. And it doesn’t allow it to die. It’s the machine that educates all the public.

So in that book, I explained the role of cholesterol, the role of the fats in the body. Cholesterol is something that we cannot live without. It’s one of the most essential molecules for every tissue, every cell in the human body, particularly for the brain, particularly for our hormonal system, for our adrenal, and for our immune system. It’s an absolutely essential molecule. That is why the human body has wonderful abilities to manufacture its own cholesterol. The headquarters of this is in the liver. The liver has a factory in it which manufactures cholesterol. And it is the liver that maintains the level of cholesterol in the blood of the person. And the liver works in connection with every cell, every tissue in the body. No healing, for example, can happen in the human body without involvement of large amounts of cholesterol and fats. Saturated fats in particular. Because they give stability to the cells of the human body. So the cell membrane, in particular. About 40% of our brain tissue is cholesterol. The other 40% is saturated fat. This structural elements of the human body.

So when there is any damage in the human body, maybe you had an operation or you’ve been to the dentist or you’ve hurt yourself, you have a trauma, something happened to you, healing has to happen. When you just went through a stressful period of time, stress causes a lot of damage in our tissues in the human body. No healing or repair can happen in the body without  large amounts of cholesterol and animal fats and proper fats. So any damaged tissue in the body sends a signal to the liver saying, “I need cholesterol. I need fats.” So the liver starts that factory inside itself. It manufactures cholesterol. It manufacturers triglycerides. These fats, packages them appropriately. Because these are fat soluble things. Our blood is water based. You can’t put fat soluble things into the water without packaging them appropriately. So cholesterol is packaged into LDLs, low density labor, proteins. And fats are packaged also into other [inaudible 01:33:37]. And these shuttles deliver this vital substances to the place of damage to heal it. That’s the healing. This is the most healing substances in the world.

And what do our doctors test? They test for these things in the blood and say, “Well, they’re high” or whatever. There are no really high or low standards of cholesterol. Whatever level of cholesterol is in your blood is the right level for you in that amount. It depends on what your body is doing. Because your body might be healing something, your body might be under stress, every stress hormones in the body is made from cholesterol. So when we’re under stress, stress hormones are required to deal with that stress. Your adrenal will send a signal to the liver, “I need cholesterol.” The liver will get into gear, produce it, package it, put it in the blood. Your blood will be delivering that cholesterol to adrenal and they’ll be converting it into stress hormones for you to cope with the stressful situation. So your blood cholesterol will be high. If you interfere with that, you will not be able to cope with stress. You will have a breakdown without these hormones. And many people finish up in that situation. There is no way of reducing blood cholesterol to a diet. That’s been proven in hundreds of studies. No way that diet has – you know, you can eat no cholesterol or no fat at all, your liver will just have to work harder to manufacture more. You’re not providing any help to your body at all.

And the only way to reduce blood cholesterol is to break that factor in the liver. And that’s what anti cholesterol pills do. That’s what they’re designed to do, to break that factory in your liver so it cannot produce cholesterol. That is why these drugs cause so many serious side effects. The major part of Alzheimer’s epidemic is due to Statin, the cholesterol pills. The hospital infection problem is due to Statin because the immune system cannot function without large amounts of cholesterol. It cannot. And what do hospitals do? Every person over 40, as soon as they arrived to the hospital, they’re put on a Statin. That’s a routine prescription. They don’t even measure blood cholesterol anymore.  They just put people on Statin straightaway. And that impairs their immune function. They’re unable to fight any infections. So people get infections in the hospitals. You get hospital infections as a result. There are many – memory loss is due to ubiquitous description of this medication.

So please read that book to understand what fat and cholesterol do. GAPS diet is very rich in cholesterol and in animal fats. Because when we analyze human fat, about 50% of your dry weight is fat. The other 50% of your dry weight protein in the human body. About 70% water. So we talk about the dry weight. So fat is a structural element of the human body, 50% of you is made out of it. So fats are not optional for humans. And when we analyze human fat in the laboratory, we find that in its biochemical structure, it’s very similar to fats in lamb, beef, pork, goose, duck, butter.

Plants have lots of fats in them but their biochemical structure is very different. It’s inappropriate for our fats for building our fats in our human’s body. They’re polyunsaturated. We need a little bit of polyunsaturated fats for the human body, omega fats, omega 3, 6, 7, 9 and so on. But we need them in tiny, tiny amounts. So when you eat enough, if you eat a fresh salad or you eat ed a handful of fresh nuts or oily seeds, you’ll get enough. Although you don’t need much of them.

The bulk of fat consumption has to come from animal foods. From animal fats for the human body. Because these are the only fats that are appropriate for our human physiology. They are structural. And they are functional for us as well. That is why GAPS nutritional protocol, GAPS diet is rich in animal fats.

The same with protein, when they look at the protein in the human body and analyze it in the laboratory, we’ll find that in its biochemical composition is very similar to proteins in meat, fish, eggs, and dairy. Plants are full of proteins. The most famous one is gluten. And the more research gluten, the more we realize nobody can digest it. No human being on this planet can digest gluten. It damages everybody. It’s just people don’t connect their piece of beloved bread with their arthritis or their migraines or their skin rash or whatever, psoriasis or whatever. People don’t want to connect because bread is addictive.

And this is just one protein that we’ve researched. Well, there are many, many other proteins in plants and all of them are indigestible for the human digestive system. This biochemical structure is very difficult for us to digest. And amino acid composition in this protein is inappropriate for building our protein or human protein. [Inaudible 01:38:37] amino acids are in excess and the amino acids are in deficit.

And that leads us to another subject here on vegetarianism. We live in a world of nutritional propaganda. And the latest fashion and propaganda promoted by all the governments in the West is that we all should become vegetarian and even vegan. This propaganda is political. It comes from the commercial sector of the world, which will gain huge profits if large parts of humanity become vegetarian and vegan. That is the agrochemical complex. And that’s where the propaganda originates from this sort of thing.

Plants are indigestible for the human digestive system. They do not feed us. They’re largely cleanses. The foods that feed the human body are animal foods, meat, fish, eggs, and dairy. And we discussed the protein and the fats in them that only animal protein and only animal fat are appropriate for building our fat and our protein. The very structure, the physical structure of the human body.

But there’s another aspect to it and that is the way the human digestive system has been designed. The scientific fact is that the only thing on our planet that can digest plants – that can truly digest plants, the only things, are microbes. And this is the fun that Mother Nature used in designing the digestive system of herbivorous animals, cows, goats, sheep, antelope, deer, giraffe, and so on. In order for these animals to digest the plants that they live on, it gave them a very special digestive system called rumen. A cow, the big belly of a cow, a large part of it is rumen. It’s a huge four chamber stomach. Four stomachs, really. And these four stomachs are full of microbes. The bulk of our gut flora lives in that rumen. And it’s these microbes which digest the grass for her. The cow herself is unable to digest grass. It’s the microbes that do the work for her. And then once they’ve digested all that grass, it’s passed into the intestines where the bulk of absorption happens. That’s where all these digestive elements then absorb.

We, human beings, do not have a rumen. We have a small stomach which produces hydrochloric acid, pepsin, and some other things. And the only things – the only food that these

stomach juices are able to digest are meat, fish, eggs and dairy. That’s a simple chemical fact. And if a human stomach is healthy because virtually no microbes in it, the microbial population is very, very sparse. Because hydrochloric acid just kills them. It creates a very, very hostile environment for any kind of microbes to survive in there. Because in a healthy stomach and a healthy person, when they’re hungry, the pH can be below one. It’s extremely acidic. It will kill any kind of microbes. Without microbes, we can’t digest bones.

So the only things that truly digest in a human stomach are meat, fish, eggs and dairy. Plants just sit there waiting for their turn. Not much digestion happens in plants. And then the whole thing gets passed into the several meters of intestines where absorption of food happens. And the only things that can be absorbed are the ones that get properly digested higher up in the stomach. And that is meat, fish, eggs and dairy. So in order to build – to feed the human body, the physical structure of our bodies, we need animal foods. The plants go through that whole intestines. They contribute some vitamins. They contribute some minerals. They contribute some phytonutrients. But they cannot contribute the bulk for building our physical structure, the protein and the fat. They cannot contribute those because they’re indigestible and they’re inappropriate for our physiology. And then the plants land in our bowel at the end of our digestive system, which is the equivalent of the rumen in the cow. That’s where the bulk of our gut flora lives.  And these microbes then digest the plant matter, break it down a little bit, give us some support.

But the difference between us and the cow is that her rumen is at the beginning of her digestive system. Where the grass is properly digested before it’s passed into the absorptive part of the digestive tract. In us human beings, our rumen is at the end of our digestive system. It’s too late now. The bulk of absorption already happened higher up. That is why we human beings derive our feeding and building nutrients from animal foods. So what do we eat plants for then? Plants are powerful cleansers, particularly when we eat them raw. They cannot build the human body to any degree but they keep it clean on the inside. They have antioxidants, phenols, phytonutrients, all kinds of things in there, which absorb and which keep us clean on the inside. That is why we eat plants.

Traditional cultures around the world through the research of Wesley Price and some other researchers who traveled around the world and studied traditional cultures, they all knew this fact. That is why they will spend extra effort on obtaining meat and fish and collecting eggs and milking animals. And they learned that plants don’t feed them, really, to any large degree. So they developed methods of making plants a little bit more digestible. And the major way they did it was fermentation.

Nontraditional culture would even dream of eating grains, for example, any kind of grain or beans without fermenting them first – thoroughly fermenting them. What are we doing with fermentation or [inaudible 01:44:36]? You know, some cultures [inaudible 01:44:38]. What do we do? We employ microbes to digest that plant for us before we put it into our digestive system. We’re doing exactly what the cow does in her rumen. It’s just that nature has already programmed that in the cow. Well, we don’t have a rumen. So that needs to be understood.

So it is possible to be a healthy vegetarians long as the person continues eating some animal foods to sustain the physical structure of their body. As long as the person eats plenty of eggs and plenty of high fat and full fat dairy every day, maybe fish occasionally, and maybe meat occasion. In cultures like that, traditional cultures exist in India where people – why do you think the cow is a sacred animal in India? Because they know that without a cow, they will perish, these cultures. She gives them milk, cheese, ghee, butter, cheese, you know, clean. And that sustain them. And also in India, all of these vegetarian cultures, they will have chickens and ducks and they have plenty of eggs. That’s where the feeding comes for them. And they’re not vegetarians by choice these people. The vegetarian is out of necessity, out of poverty. Because they didn’t have access to meat.  There are so many people in India. India has always been very densely populated. If they start eating their animals, they’ll probably eat them all in two weeks or something like that. So they had to – but when they get a chance to eat meat, they don’t say no to it. Or when they get the chance to get fish, they also cherish it and would eat it.

The western style veganism, the religious evangelical veganism, came with the books of Nathan Pritikin in the 1930s to India and created some following in India. But traditional Indians who are vegetarians, they are vegetarians out of necessity, out of poverty. Veganism is not a diet. It is a form of fasting. You’re not feeding your body to any degree. You’re cleansing, cleansing, and cleansing, and cleansing, and cleansing. Many people in our modern world are very toxic. They couldn’t do with a period of cleansing. And these are the people who when they go on a vegan regimen, they start feeling better quite soon. In the first few weeks, they feel so much better. Because a less toxic body feels much better than a toxic one. And also the removal the process junk, they remove the flour and the sugar, the bread, the pasta, and the cakes, and the biscuits, and the sugar. And any person who removes that feels better immediately. Not because of what they’re eating but because of what they’re not eating anymore. They feel better. And this is the time when they usually write the evangelical books and trying to convince everybody to become a leader.

But at a certain point, the body will finish cleansing and it will become hungry. It will give you a signal, “I finished cleansing. Now, feed me.” And the way the body will give that signal is by giving you a desire for a piece of meat, for roasted chicken, for a pot of green, for a piece of cheese, or something else like that. The problem is many vegans in our modern world follow this regimen for emotional reasons, political reasons, religious, ethical reasons and so on. They don’t listen to their body. They override that signal. They force their body to continue cleansing when the body really needs feeding. And that is when the body has no choice but to start cannibalizing less important tissues to feed more important issues, such as muscle. That’s when they start losing muscle, these people. Because the body breaks down muscle to feed the heart, the liver, the lungs, the digestive system, the brain, the more important organs than the muscle. And the person eventually develops [inaudible 01:48:24] degenerative disease. If the person pushes themselves long enough to veganism. So the veganism can be used as a cleansing fast, as a fasting procedure. But it must never be used as a long term lifestyle. We need animal foods as human beings.

I have many anorexic girls in my clinic and some anorexic boys as well. And what I discovered very quickly that more than 90% of these kids became anorexic because of misguided veganism and vegetarianism. Misguided vegetarianism has become a major cause of mental illness amongst our young people. Many youngsters destroy themselves through this propaganda, through this idea. And that spurred me into researching this subject thoroughly. And very quickly, I’ve discovered that there are no scientific studies we can really trust in this area.  All of them have been conducted by pro-vegan and pro-vegetarian [inaudible 01:49:22] manipulates it.

And the data has been specially analyzed. None of them can be trusted. They’re completely untrustworthy, all of these studies. Particularly the China study. The China study has been criticized very heavily already by many people. There are books written about it. Do not trust it. It’s a lie upon lie upon lie. And once I’ve discovered that, I had no choice but to go to basic sciences of biochemistry, of human physiology, of zoology, of animal physiology, anatomy, and clinical experience. My own clinical experience and clinical experience of other doctors. And based on all that research, I have written a book called Vegetarianism Explained. It came out in 2017. So for all those people who are really interested in this subject, please read that book. It will explain to you all the ins and outs of it so that you don’t get into trouble. It is easy to destroy your health and it’s not so easy to rebuild it. I know many recovering vegans and it takes many, many years to get even halfway to healing and rebuilding your body after several years of veganism.



[1:50:34] Ashley James: I’ve recently finished reading a book called the Metabolic Typing Diet. And in the beginning of the book, this doctor shares a story of his mentor who has since passed, was a dentist back in the 50s.



[1:50:51] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Yeah. Donald Kelly. Yeah, I’ve read that.



[1:50:53] Ashley James: Right. He had a really large pancreatic tumor that was sticking out of his gut. Everyone could see it. And the doctor said, “Go home and get ready to die.” And his mom said, “No. You are going to eat vegan.” Well, they did haven’t a word for it back then. “You’re going to eat fruits and vegetables and nuts and seeds and greens and that’s it. We’re going to get you on a vegan diet.” And within months, his pancreatic cancer had shrunk and eventually went away. And so he became a total cheerleader for this diet. And soon, because it was a small town, all the people are coming to him not for dental health but for diet health. And so he put everyone on this diet. Many people saw huge changes, wonderful healings. But there’d be a percentage – a  small percentage of people that would get worse. And he couldn’t figure it out.

Until one day his wife – and this is back in the 50s so, like, they didn’t have many regulations around chemicals. But she was exposed to paint fumes that were toxic and of course disrupted her liver and her mitochondria and everything. And she was bedridden and almost comatose. She was within days of dying, basically. Her body had shut down. And he tried giving her vegetables and fruit and nuts and he was trying to basically put her on the diet that healed her cancer and she got even worse and practically fell into a coma. And so he did the last thing he could possibly think of, “What’s the last thing I haven’t fed my wife is meat.” And he boiled some beef and started feeding her little spoonful’s and she started to get better. And within a day, she was sitting up in bed and he scratched his head and thought, “This is crazy. How come I cured my cancer with no meat? But 100% meat is what helped my wife get better.”

And so he basically sold his practice. Moved to Washington from Texas. And dedicated the rest of his life to studying diets and figuring out why is it that some people can heal eating this way and other people get worse and some people can heal this way. And that’s the big crux of it, is when do we do the GAPS diet? When do we do a vegan cleanse or raw vegan cleanse? When do we do a Paleo diet? When do we do these things to heal certain ailments?



[1:53:20] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Yes, of course. Every human being is unique. One size fits all doesn’t work. Every human being is unique. And depending if your predecessors were Eskimos or from Scandinavia or not somewhere, chances are you don’t need to eat lots of meat and fish and fat. But if your predecessors come maybe from some tropical areas of the world or Mediterranean basin, then you need to eat more carbohydrates. So indeed, every human being is unique. And that’s what this book on metabolic typing tries to assess and has a large questionnaire to help people to assess that.

And what it basically has created, that protein type people, carbohydrate type people. But the majority of people are in the middle somewhere. We’re all mix type. Most of us are mixed type. The only way for us human beings to really know what we need is to get back in touch with human with our body intelligence. Because it is your own body that is keeping lots of checks and balances up in the air every minute of your existence. Depending on what you do and depending on the season, on the weather, on your stress level, your age, and in women depending on the menstrual cycle, wherever you are in the menstrual cycle, depending on all these factors and parameters, your body needs a certain set of nutrients. And it is unique to you.

And the only way the body can let you know what it needs at any particular moment is by giving you desire for a particular food, which you must listen to. And then it’s essential for us human beings to smell before we eat and to taste. And then listen to our insights and our internal organs which will give us a feedback after we’ve eaten it, does this sit well or doesn’t it sit well. And every human being is unique and every day is unique and what satisfied you for breakfast may be repulsive for lunch and vice versa with the dinner. I have a whole – in the book Vegetarianism Explained, I have a whole chapter which is called One Man’s Meat Is Another Man’s Poison. What I explained to people how to get back in touch with your inner body intelligence. So you can feed yourself properly on a daily basis.

Because one day you wake up, depending on the weather, on your hormonal metabolism today, on what you have to do, whether you’re resting on holiday, whether you’ve got an exam coming at lunchtime, or something else, you may devour a full English breakfast. The next day you wake up, you don’t feel like a full English breakfast. You just – a yogurt and an apple will do. But later on – every time your body will give you a signal what it needs right now. And make no mistake, the human body knows the composition of foods on this planet. So if it needs, for example, so much protein, so much fat, so much B12, so much zinc right now, how can your body give you all that information? And even if the body knew how to give you that information, how are you going to go around accomplishing those proportions?

Well, the human body is kind,  nature is kind. It doesn’t ask us to do anything so complicated. It gave us tastes, it gave us senses, the sense of desire for a particular food at a particular moment. So whenever you have a moment to eat and you feel a bit hungry, ask yourself a simple question, “What would I kill for right now?” The answer will pop into your head immediately. And that food will smell divine, taste divine, and it will satisfy you. But after eating that food, you will not be looking for anything else, not snacking, not kind of still feeling unsatisfied. You can forget about the food for a while and go into something else. But if you feed yourself according to some book or some guru or something else, then you are you are likely to be going against your own body and what your body needs at that moment. And as I say, you need change every hour, every minute, all the time. It depends. It’s very, very unique. So no clever doctor and no laboratory and no clever book can ever design what you need to have for breakfast, what do you have for lunch, what you need to have for dinner, what you need to have in between, or whether you should have dinner at all, or whether you should have lunch at all, or not. Only your body knows that. And you need to get back in touch with it. Listen to it. Respect it. And do what it asks you to do. And then you’ll be fine. And I explained that in that article, please read that article.



[1:58:08] Ashley James: I’ll make sure that that is linked in the show notes. You brought up when to eat and sometimes not to eat. That’s an interesting concept because what’s really popular now is the idea of intermittent fasting where we don’t eat until, like, 10:00 a.m. Your book, I believe says, to not eat breakfast until 9:30. That can be very healthy for some people. What about people that wake up first thing in the morning ravished with hunger or maybe they have diabetes and they want to eat earlier, should they listen to their body or should they try to extend that fasting window to 9:30 or 10:00?



[1:58:47] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Intermittent fasting, it’s another fashion. It will pass. There are lots of fashions in nutrition. We have many fashions and now is the fashion for vegetarianism and intermittent fasting. It will pass. There will be other fashions coming in.

Listen to your body. Listen to your body on a daily basis. If you’re not hungry, despite the fact that the member of the family laid a huge dinner on the table, you don’t have to eat now. Listen to your body because you can burn yourself without food. And then it will not digest well and it will only cause disease. It will only cause problems in your body. Eat when you’re hungry. That’s right. Listen to your body. Your body is the expert. Not the book, nothing.

So if you woke up in the morning and you are, obviously, hungry, of course, have a full breakfast and ask yourself what you desire. Because it takes time for people to recover because processed carbohydrates that everybody’s lives on in the world – in the Western world in particular – are addictive. Sugar is the number one addictive substance in the world. The second most addictive substance is wheat flour. Particularly, modern commercial varieties of wheat which are 80 times higher gluten in them. So there’s highly addictive substances. And a lot of humanity is addicted to them. That is why they crave bread and they crave sugar and they drink soft drinks and so on. But if you get back in touch with your body intelligence – with your inner body intelligence, you will need to gradually distinguish is this an addiction or is this what my body really asks for?


[2:00:32] Ashley James: I love it. Yeah, we are addicted to those hyperpalatable foods, the salt, the oil, and the sugar. They mix them together and it becomes this wonderful concoction that makes the brain go crazy for it. So when we first start out asking what do we want, the brain is like, “I want pizza” because the brain wants its crack. It wants its drug. And so we have to heal the gut and start to calm down our senses and think about what is my body say it really wants. Not what do I -what drug of choice do I want? What hyperpalatable highly processed food do I want? It’s what my body really wants to nourish it and start to listen to that. I love it.

I could talk to you for hours. It has been such a pleasure to have you on the show. And I really, really would love to have you back especially after you publish your next book, which I hope that you get lots of time to be able to finish it. Because we’re excited to absorb your latest book. And of course all the links to all your books are going to be in the show notes of today’s podcast at

To wrap up today’s interview, is there anything you’d like to say to the listeners to complete the interview? Anything left unsaid or any homework that you want to impart on us?



[2:01:57] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: I would like to say that the human body is a miraculous creation. It’s a pinnacle of evolution on this planet. It has every mechanism of healing itself and maintaining itself, rejuvenating itself programmed into it. Trust it, and listen to it, and work with it, and never lose hope. I have seen so many miracles happening with the GAPS diet alone. Things that have been classified incurable people recover from. Diseases that have been classified as genetic because we don’t know what else might be causing it. People suddenly recover from them despite the fact that they’ve got the gene that the doctors have tested and found the gene and the person still recovers. So never lose hope. Never give up. If your doctor hasn’t got an answer for you, keep searching because the answer is probably elsewhere. So anything can be healed, I believe. And just trust in the human nature, in the Mother Nature, and in the design of the human body.



[2:03:08] Ashley James: Beautiful. Thank you so much, Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride. It has been such a pleasure having you on the show. You’re welcome back anytime.



[2:03:15] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Thank you very much. Thank you for listening.



[2:03:19] Outro: Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition? And how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity? Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business? Support people in their success? Do you love helping people?

You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program. And it really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over a hundred dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition. But from a standpoint of how we can help people to shift their life and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health. I definitely recommend you check them out.

You can Google Institute for Integrative Nutrition or IIN and give them a call or you can go to and you can receive a free module of their training to check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in. Be sure to mention my name, Ashley James, and the Learn True Health podcast because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out.

It really changed my life to be in their program. And I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information. We need more health coaches. In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctors offices, you can work in hospitals. You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help the your local schools shift their programs to help children be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success and their health goals. There’s so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach.

So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. Mention my name, get the best deal. Give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month. So you’re going to want to call them now and check it out. And if you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.

Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price? For high quality supplements and to talk to someone about what supplements are best for you, go to and one of our fantastic True Health Coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are the highest quality and the best price. That’s That’s Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program.


Get Connected With Dr. Natasha Campbell – McBride!

GAPS Diet Website

Gaps.Me Website



Books by Dr. Natasha Campbell – McBride

Gut and Psychology Syndrome: Natural Treatment for Autism, Dyspraxia, A.D.D., Dyslexia, A.D.H.D., Depression, Schizophrenia


Vegetarianism Explained: Making an Informed Decision



Oct 7, 2019

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Solving Women’s Health Holistically



  • What is Menopause and perimenopause
  • How Vaginal and Vulvar health is very important
  • How to have a healthy vaginal and vulvar health
  • An overall approach to your hormone health is definitely going to help the vaginal tissue, help the vulvar tissues.
  • Change your diet. Eat five cups of vegetables per day. Eat a diet that’s anti-inflammatory for you.


Did you know that having a good and healthy habit in your gut is as important as taking care of your feminine area? That it’s not just important feeling clean “down there” but making sure that it is really clean and free of infections. Today, Dr. Ginger Nash shares her expertise and experiences about feminology in the podcast. Yes, today’s all about us women.



[00:00] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is episode 384. I’m so excited to have back on the show with us Dr. Ginger Nash. She’s a Naturopathic physician and if you’re a long-time listener, you know that my favorite guest is a Naturopath. Dr. Ginger Nash was in episode 317 and she shared about hormone health and her specialty is helping women to balance hormones naturally without using replacements. Like hormone replacements, bioidentical hormones. She doesn’t use that. She helps us to actually help the body get so healthy that it has balanced hormones and today, she’s here to share so much more with us about women’s health. For the male listeners, you might want to listen just because you have a wonderful woman in your life this would be great to pass on the information or maybe to just the whole world going down the rabbit hole you’d never heard of. We’re pretty much going to focus on women’s health but I’m sure there’s some tidbits that men will enjoy. We’re going to let everyone listen. Just know that we’re celebrating women’s health today with Dr. Ginger Nash. Welcome back to the show


[01:21] Dr. Ginger Nash: Thank you, Ashely. I’m so excited to be back. I love your show.


[01:26] Ashley James:  It was such a pleasure having you on episode 317. I know my listeners just loved learning from you. Your website is or you also have another website which is You’ve done a lot of really cool things since we had you on the show. Like you created a course for women around vaginal health. We’ll definitely going to talk about that today. Since you’re on the show last share more with us. What’s happened in your life? What’s going on now?


[01:59] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. I’m a busy gal and I’m an Aries so I tend to take on some project but one of the biggest things is started working out of a another office. One of my offices is in New Haven, Connecticut. I joined another practice. My friend and colleague, Dr. Jaquel Patterson who happens to be the president of our national organization. The Association of Naturopathic Physicians. That’s cool. Jaquel and I have known each other for a number of years. She’s awesome and she bought a practice from a doctor. Dr. Darin Ingles and who really focused in Connecticut as you well know there is a tremendous amount of Lyme and other tech borne diseases and post Lyme syndrome. His practice is very much focused on Lyme and those pathogens which I am also familiar with but Dr. Patterson brought me on as a women’s health expert. I started doing some new therapies down there that I’m excited about and I’d love to share more about with you and your listeners. In two offices now, just making my life that much more complex and fun but it’s really great because as you know Ashley, Naturopathic doctors there’s just never a day where we don’t learn something new. Many days we learn many new things. The body’s so complex and there’s so much to learn and there so much in the world of natural medicine for us to continually investigate.


[03:33] Ashley James: You want to hire a doctor who loves learning and who’s constantly learning and staying up on the science and has their mind open. Wiling to keep looking. If you go to a doctor who’s a know-it-all who kind of goes, “Pft, diet doesn’t matter. Just take this prescription.” Whatever. They close you off. They go, “That doesn’t work. No, that doesn’t do anything. Doesn’t do anything. “ They’re not willing to even investigate or look or learn. Fire that doctor and go find a doctor who loves learning.


[04:07] Dr. Ginger Nash: I love your passion about this Ashley. So true.


[04:09] Ashley James:  Right? I think just like in the last day, I’ve had three listeners either private messaged me or in the Facebook group asked about this. It’s frustrating for me because we have been raised to put doctors on the pedestal and we give up our personal power the moment we walk into their office because we’ve been taught that they have all the answers and we don’t know nothing.


[04:32] Dr. Ginger Nash: Right. I say to people all the time, “You know your body better than I do but this is a journey we’re going to do together.”


[04:39] Ashley James:  Absolutely. You want to go to a doctor who scratches her head but goes, “You know what, I don’t really understand what’s going on in your body but let’s discover it together. I’m going to dive into the research. Let’s figure out how to support your body holistically. Let’s try get to the root cause.” I love that what you do when you work with women you don’t just go, “Oh, your progesterone’s low. Here let’s slap some cream on you and go home.” That doesn’t solve the problem. Why is the progesterone low? What’s going on in the body as a whole. That’s what you love to look at.


[05:07] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes, totally. Sometimes hormonal balances are part of a normal life cycle because as women, we certainly go through puberty and the we go through puberty in reverse which is menopause and perimenopause. Sometimes there’s things that are happening in the body that may be causing uncomfortable symptoms and discomfort but sometimes you have to normalize some of it and that’s a big role for me as a physician sometimes with women going through those big changes and post-partum is another major transitional phase in a woman’s life. For those of us that have had children.


[05:48] Ashley James: Something I hear is, women are going in menopause earlier and earlier in a very unnatural way because of the level of stress. Physical stress, emotional stress but also the stress of the toxicity in our life, the endocrine-disrupting chemicals are constantly exposed to in our air, water, our food. Even just touching a receipt, the bisphenol touching. Every time you pick up a receipt from the grocery store, you’re touching a chemical that is a endocrine disruptor. We’re exposed constantly to these stressors in the body and then with the emotional stress of having to manage our elderly parents for a lot of people, our children, our partner, our job. Having to manage everything and oftentimes putting ourselves last. All the stress is leading us into early menopause. Have you seen that in your practice?


[06:45] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. I really have. It’s amazing that you bring that up because just yesterday, I had a 42-year-old woman who does not have post Lyme syndrome or what I suspect in many others a lot of pathogens be that can sometime disrupt the endocrine system and cause premature ovarian failure. I see more and more women that in their early 40’s they’re really starting to show signs of perimenopause where the whole symphony of the female hormones, starting in the brain of course then affecting the ovaries and the adrenal glands. It’s also out of whack that women are experiencing much more severe types of symptoms at an earlier age. That’s a really good point, Ashley. That I definitely see in my practice. The topics are part of it too. Of course, yes, all the endocrine disruptors. There are over 50,000 chemicals that are in our environment that weren’t around a hundred years ago. Our genetics and our epigenetics can’t keep up. We’re just a lot more toxic obviously.


[07:57] Ashley James:  Recently the World Health Organization said that the world’s average is age 52 for going into menopause.


[08:09] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. I’ve read 51 actually.


[08:12] Ashley James:  Okay. Yes, 51. Women in the United States more and more and then in other industrialized nations. Where we are over toxic, overstressed and undernourished that we are falling into menopause 10 years early.


[08:30] Dr. Ginger Nash: Then sometimes, of course, women with endocrine disruptors, hormonal imbalances, more of inflammatory estrogen stimulation. They’re maybe more prone to fibroids or endometriosis which is more of an inflammatory condition than anything. If they have severe problems with their bleeding patterns. They get hysterectomy. Sometimes that can really throw women into premature menopause or if they’ve been diagnosed with breast cancer and then they’re treated with chemotherapy or these estrogen blockers. There’s all sorts of chemical interventions and surgical interventions that can make a woman, overnight her hormone levels can really plummet. There’s those types of phenomenon that are happening more frequently as well.


[09:26] Ashley James:  Maybe you can help us understand, should we try to stay off menopause as long as possible? Is it part of longevity that we stay in a premenopausal state or a perimenopausal state as much as possible?


[09:44] Dr. Ginger Nash: That’s a really good question. Of course, what happens technically with menopause is you stop ovulating. The role of progesterone, which is only produced after an ovulation once that corpus luteum starts secreting progesterone. The role of progesterone is hugely important women in terms of balancing out the amount of estrogen they have. Of course, if you’re overweight or you do have a lot of endocrine disruptor exposures or you’re toxic etc. You could have a lot more estrogenic activity, your receptors might be extra sensitive, etc. The lack of that progesterone is really what is a big part of the hallmark classic symptoms of menopause as much as the lowering amounts of estrogen and testosterone. It’s an interesting question that you bring up. In some ways, I’m 51 and a half. I’m still menstruating every month and in some ways, just intuitively in my body that feels right. It feels like my youth or my younger tissue levels of hormones and all that is being sustained. I feel like that does contribute to longevity. I agree it’s a probably a good thing, not that you can really stay off menopause naturally, it is a natural process. It is something to be embraced and something that women are really coming to terms within a positive sense. I’m happy to say. I think you know, if these unnatural processes give you a premature perimenopause or menopause then yes, that’s probably going to impact your long term health and your longevity because those hormones are incredibly important. Hormones are so powerful. They do so many things on so many tissues in the body. It’s really fascinating too because human women, I think there’s like a species of whale maybe sperm whales or killer whales. I can’t remember. Are the only species that go through menopause “early” because a lot of species they are able to bear children or offspring much closer to the point of their death. There’s been a lot of interesting conjecture about why that is for humans. We are one of the very few species that does go through menopause early compared to other animals. It’s interesting but we obviously have quite, humans are different in so many ways. We obviously have longer life span than many other animals.


[12:43] Ashley James: I guess my understanding about progesterone is that it’s a youthful hormone. That it helps to make sure that we have strong bones, you can fill in the details. What is it about before menopause these hormone levels that we have what is about these hormone levels that we want to keep as naturally balanced as possible to extend our life and to extend our youth so that tissues doesn’t sag. So that we look when we look younger but also that we have healthier bones. [Crosstalk]


[13:20] Ginger Nash: Yes, definitely. Estrogen is also the queen of female hormones and really important for longevity and youth. A lot of women who are afraid of gynecological cancer, breast cancer, uterine cancer, cervical cancer, they have missed conceived notions about estrogen because healthy levels of estrogen are incredibly important as are healthy levels of progesterone. These two hormones, you really can’t even separate them, Ashley. They’re both so important and they balance the relative balance of estrogen and progesterone is so important. This is why women have a monthly cycle. Where the first two weeks of the cycle is quite different than the 2nd two weeks of the cycle because the first two weeks are really driven by estrogen and 2nd two weeks after you ovulate is driven by progesterone. Progesterone doesn’t have a specific effect on the nervous system so it’s more of the calming hormone where the estrogen is more stimulating and problems of hyper estrogen can maybe even overstimulate the brain sometimes. Of course, if you have low estrogen you can have brain fog and memory issues and all of that. It’s really the relative balance and every tissues that had estrogen receptors also have progesterone receptors. Estrogen makes the uterine lining grow. Estrogen is our main growth hormone. It makes cell turnover in the breast whereas program maintains the uterine lining. Progesterone slows down the cell turnover in the breast. Every part of your body that’s being affected by estrogen it has a balancing effect from progesterone on that same tissue. It’s really critical to understand and like I said earlier, menopause is a natural part of a woman’s life stages just as puberty is when you’re having some cycles where you’re not ovulating in puberty necessarily. Right away, it’s considered normal for young girls up to 2 years to not have regular cycles. At perimenopause the same thing is happening. That’s really where all the symptoms come in at puberty and at menopause it’s because the body has to find and recalibrate that balance point between estrogen and progesterone again. That happens all over including in the vulva and the vaginal tissues, which is another important part of the body that really is affected by both estrogen and progesterone. A lot of women feel uncomfortable talking about this part of their body sadly. The word vagina, classic Eve Ensler. However, many years ago. Must be 20 years ago now.


[16:14] Ashley James:  Vagina monologues?


[16:16] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes, vagina monologues. She has to make a whole Broadway show just so people can say the word vagina. It’s great. I do think women are getting more comfortable. Really being embodied and that’s certainly part of my work in feminology is to help educate women about what normal function is for their body and really learning to listen to the signals from their body including the vaginal area and the vulvar area. One of the things that my college in feminology Dr. Tara Nayek when we did our little vaginal course which I love. She started out with terminology because a lot of women refer to sort of everything down there. Again, I’m doing the air quotes “down there” as the vagina when really the vagina is actually the canal that gets penetrated during sexual intercourse. It’s the vulvar area in the outside of the bodies that we have a lot more symptomatology and a lot more familiarity with. I do want to say just at the outset I think that was so great for Tara to bring that up. There’s a lot of confusion even just about the anatomy of our own bodies which is just so amazing. In 2019 we’re still –


[17:40] Ashley James:  It’s almost 2020. We don’t know our vulva from our vagina. But now we do.


[17:50] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes, totally. Some of the other stuff that we discussed in the course that was really fun to educate women about was how we had this whole, magical vulvar magical vagina because it is this amazing self-cleaning, self-lubricating and it makes it’s own hormones. It really has its own ecosystem. The vaginal canal. Women who have imbalances in hormones and women who have with chronic vaginitis like yeast or BV or chronic herpes conditions etc. they will tell you that when there’s imbalance and symptoms in the area in the body it could be incredibly uncomfortable and distracting making you feel like you can’t really think about anything else. There’s a lot of that going on in my practice certainly. I treat a lot of women with vaginitis and vulvodynia and problems in that area.


[18:54] Ashley James:  We want to get into that. I think it’s very interesting. You mention that when we have low estrogen that we have the brain fog. Interesting symptoms that I’ve have in the last is I’ll forget nouns. We’ll know it the certain time of month. My husband will look at me and be like, “Oh, all right.” Looking at the calendar, “Okay. It’s that time of the month again.” Because I’ll be like, “Can you please put that thing in the thing?” I can’t remember. “That thing, can you put that thing? Can you go get that thing and put the thing in the thing?” he has to guess what I’m saying because I don’t remember.


[19:26] Dr. Ginger Nash: In my house, we call that a Johnny. We just refer to everything as a Johnny when we don’t have the noun. Like, “Put the Johnny in the Johnny.” Over there by the Johnny is where the Johnny is.” [Laughter]


[19:36] Ashley James:  Until now when I learned that it’s actually a hormone thing. Interesting.


[19:41] Dr. Ginger Nash: Does it happen at the very end of your period or just a few days after your period is over –


[19:48] Ashley James:  It’s like sort of beginning of the cycle is when it’s happening the most.


[19:54] Dr. Ginger Nash: That’s when estrogen is the lowest.


[19:56] Ashley James: Right. I don’t find that I do it often in an interview which is great. I’m so thankful my brain doesn’t pay attention to my hormonal levels when I’m doing interviews. I’ll be get off an interview be like, “Honey, could you go get me that thing. The thing, the thing over there.” I do it less and less because I have been balancing my hormones more and more especially just the healthier I get this whole since starting the podcast I’ve lost close to 70 pounds.


[20:35] Dr. Ginger Nash:  Oh my goodness. Good for you. That’s amazing.


[20:37] Ashley James:  I’ve told my story many times but basically I’ve had chronic adrenal fatigue, type II diabetes, polycystic ovarian syndrome, and infertility and chronic infections. All through my 20’s and into the early parts of my 30’s and then I found natural medicine and started shopping the perimeter of the store.


[20:58] Dr. Ginger Nash: On the corner, one day and I bumped right into [Inaudible 21:02] in the corner.


[21:03] Ashley James:  Yes. Exactly. She said, shop the perimeter of the store and stop eating crap food. We ended up seeing Naturopaths and getting on this bandwagon and one thing led to another. My diabetes went away. My polycystic ovarian syndrome slowly got better. Everyone I talked to says, “Well, my doctor says I’m going to have it for life.” I’m like, “Yes, my doctor said I’m going to have it for life too but you know what I was seeing an MD, not an ND.” If you see and ND and you see a good ND, they’re going to say let’s see how much you can heal. Let’s get your body as healthy as you can.” All those problems I had are gone. We conceived our son naturally. I was told by an endocrinologist I was never going to have kids. It was all-natural.


[21:48] Dr. Ginger Nash: I hate when I hear that. That’s so awful.


[21:51] Ashley James:  Yes. For me, I’ve been doing this investing in my health for 10 years. I’m about to be 40 and I feel healthier and younger than I did 10 years ago. It’s worth it.


[22:06] Dr. Ginger Nash: It’s amazing. That’s totally amazing.


[22:07] Ashley James:  It’s worth eating healthy and taking supplements when needed making lifestyle changes and doing all the things we learn from guests like you. It’s worth it because 10 years, for now, you’re going to feel younger than you do now.


[22:18] Dr. Ginger Nash: That’s awesome. That’s so great. It’s really about learning and empowering yourself to take care of yourself and not putting giving your power away to a medical intervention and something that, I can’t believe it hasn’t even come up yet when I was talking about estrogen and progesterone balance and the impotence of those. Certainly any women who has been diagnosed with PCOS. It’s like, “Okay, you’ve have all these problems. What’s the solution from the mainstream medical model is to put you on the birth control pill.” What does that do about suppress all your hormones level? There’s very strong connection in the literature actually about longevity and anti-aging and all of that. Women are on the pill for 20-30 years sometimes. It’s unreal. This is just considered normal way to manage your symptoms but what you’re doing is you’re shutting down that entire endocrine system. That entire symphony of your hormones. That’s going to have huge effect on almost every body system. I’m so happy to hear that you were aware enough to take your health into your hands and really heal. Part of a Naturopath’s training is the patient is part of the journey as we said earlier but also just that we learned from our patients and that we need to empower them to take care of their health. That’s really amazing. I can’t believe you lost 75 pounds, that’s radical. Ashley. That’s so radical. You’ve had how may children?


[24:06] Ashley James:  One. One amazing son. We might have another one. He’s 4 and a half years old. He’s absolutely the light of our life and it was a very healthy, he was a very healthy baby. Everything was great. It’s just our focus is on supporting the body’s ability to maintain health and do that through food. It’s funny that we have this really interesting concept in modern-day society where we don’t see a connection bet what we put in our mouth and the cells that we grow. We were literally made of food. We started out as this 8-pound baby and we just ate and ate and grew but now as adults we just eat whatever we want. We eat the standard American diet and we don’t see that there is consequence to what we put in our mouth. Because we have this false belief that everything is safe. Otherwise, they shouldn’t produce things that aren’t safe.


[25:12] Dr. Ginger Nash: Do you know who Dr. Peter Osborne is? He’s done a lot of work with gluten sensitivity and celiac disease and I just listen to a friend of mine’s podcast. Excellent podcast. He had Peter Osborne on and was talking about the history of enriched grains in this country. How cereals became this huge part of our diet and how they were never really meant to be used in such high quantities but of course, because of monocrops and monoculture, agriculture and the way that it’s presented to us. I never really had made this connection before I don’t know if you have, Ashley but if you buy a loaf of regular bread which you probably don’t, I don’t usually buy regular bread but it’s like it will say enriched with B vitamins, thiamine, etc. that’s because the grains are not naturally nutritious enough. It’s not because these processes took them out it’s like cereals and grains. We need to be eating way more vegetables, way more whole foods. If you eat animal products from healthy raised animals not fed antibiotics and corn from the time they were born just to be slaughtered. That is not a healthy form of meat consumption and talk about endocrine disruption. The amount of hormone that you’re exposed to in commercially raised meat product and dairy is way beyond what you’d ever get in just exposures of lesser intensity. You’re absolutely right. The whole role of food in our health is just not acknowledged by medicine. Which is crazy right? It’s crazy that doctors literally tell people, “Your diet doesn’t have anything to do with your digestive problems. Not to mention your hormone problems.”


[27:21] Ashley James:  Right. In reversing type two diabetes which was – the first thing I reversed was my chronic monthly infections. Every month I was on antibiotics. The first change we made after watching, it was like Forks over Knives. It was in 2008. It was one of the first health documentaries that Netflix ever streamed. Streaming is like brand new. I think it was Fork over Knives or was it Food, Inc.? It was one of those two. I think we saw Food, Inc. in the movie theaters but any as back then we saw both of them. Between 2008-2009 they said, vote with your fork, vote with your fork. If you don’t like something in the industry like don’t put money in something you don’t like put money in the things you do like. Buy organic if you want to support organic. Then they said shop the perimeter of the store. I thought, “Okay, we’re going to give it a shot.” That month my infections went away. I thought, “I just made one change. What else could I change?” I gave my body over to the MD and they just kept giving me drug after drug and never telling me that I could stop the infections by not eating crap food. I wasn’t sitting there with a bunch of Oreos or Lucky Charms or whatever and Twinkies. I wasn’t sitting there with Halloween candy like every day. I was just eating how everyone else ate. That was enough to make my body unable to handle infections. After that then I reversed my type II diabetes and I did it totally with food.


[29:03] Dr. Ginger Nash: That’s amazing. I’m sure that all those antibiotics that you had taken that just makes you overgrow yeast and then if you’re sensitive to yeast then forget it. You’re just going to get inflammatory process after inflammatory process all over your body


[29:19] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes, exactly. Having to fight yeast infection and urinary tract infections at the same time. That made me want to look, “What can I do naturally?” because I didn’t want to have to keep going over and over again to get anti-biotic for this what seemed like that was a wakeup call for me when I saw my vagina’s out of balance. What’s going on? My vulva and vagina, right? Now knowing that there’s both those we should really address the whole thing. we’ve had people in the Learn True Health Facebook group, not people, we’ve had women talk about they have yeast infections and UTIs and what to do about it. There’s so much great holistic information out the. I definitely want to get into how we can create a healthier relationship with our vagina and vulva because you have such a great course that you created talking about microbiome and what we can do on a natural level. The reason why I shared my story is to illustrate that something as simple as food can really shift our health hugely. Traditional doctors like MDs who go to medical school, wonderful people, best of intentions, they’re great to go to when out needed drug, when we needed surgery or procedure but they don’t have any training in how to use diet in healing the body. Oftentimes we’re going to the wrong doctor. Going to a Naturopath to help us to heal the body is the right doctor to go to. There’s my little soapbox and getting off of it.


[31:07] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. Thank you. I appreciate people like you so much that have really taken it to wider audience. It’s not just Naturopaths talking to other Naturopaths and our patients. It really is a much bigger platform that you helped create Ashley. I think that’s great. We need to hear it from more people outside of the profession about what Naturopathic medicine can do for them. Thank you for the support.


[31:35] Ashley James:  Absolutely. I’m the biggest cheerleader, biggest fan of Naturopaths. You’ll ever have. You’ll ever have. Can you tell us in your experience working clinically helping women to balance their hormones? What kind of diet changes have you helped women make? That then you’ve seen in the bloodwork that their hormones became into healthier levels because of those diet changes?


[32:00] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes, that’s a great question. Hormones that we’ve talked about so far, estrogen, progesterone, testosterone are all the reproductive hormones. Of course, we’ve got the stress hormones. Cortisol, DHEA, etc. and then the hormones that food affects first and foremost, of course, is insulin and some of the pancreatic secretions that are immediately affected by your diet and this is why I’m sure Ashley, part of your journey in healing yourself of PCOS had to do with your insulin levels. I think a lot of people are familiar with the term insulin resistance. A lot of my dietary recommendations come from one of my main teachers who is Dr. Peter D’Adamo who is the doctor of blood type diet thing and I know you are familiar with his work as well. Lately, I’ve been thinking a lot more about Peter’s work because there’s this anti-lectin diet that’s out there in the world now. It just drives me a little baddy because the whole point of lectins is that they’re choosy. Some of them are actually beneficial lectins some of them are negative lectins and depending on what your blood type is.

Means there are certain lectins and foods which are basically sugar-loving proteins that can attach to our blood type antigen which is the sugar. Depending on your blood type antigen, different lectin can have different effects in your body. This is not the veal or anything. Some people have dramatic profound changes just from following a blood type diet. Other people need more tweaking and more finesse but the blood type is always someplace I start because it does mean a tremendous amount about who you are as a biochemical individual to know if you’re blood type O, blood type A, blood type B or AB. That’s always where I’m going to start with diet. Even if I don’t give somebody I use Dr. D’Adamo’s software the SWAMI genotyping diet software for people. In the beginning when I’m working with people, men and women I’m trying to address dietary issues. I may just make some broad stroke recommendations. I always start out with some of the very fundamentals of the blood type diet approach. I have just seen clinically over 20 years a tremendous amount of consistency with people who are blood type A cannot really digest red meat as well as people who are blood type O or B. That might be just one thing I start with.

It’s amazing and maybe you heard this a lot yourself because I know you’ve talked to a lot of people. It’s amazing how a lot of times people will say intuitively that they feel better when they’re eating more according to their blood type. That’s always the starting point or the jumping-off point. When it comes to hormones, one of the things that’s important in terms of hormonal imbalance is whether your gut is clearing the hormones properly. That’s phase three detoxification of all of our hormones. Starting with gut health is always a really commonplace and what’s one of the things that you do several time a day as a therapy for your gut is eat food. Food can be medicine. Food can be therapy. It’s not like I’m specifically saying, “Oh, eat this food which is good for your hormone.” but obviously, we want to minimize the amount of the inflammation in the gut. We want to minimize food sensitivity reactions. We want to minimize the destruction of the gut lining which lectins also play a role in the health of the microvilli in the small intestine which is where all your nutrients are absorbed. That’s always the jumping-off point. The real 30 seconds breakdown is type O’s are tend to be more carnivorous. Type A’s tend to do better with less animal proteins in their diet. Type B’s are what we call idiosyncratic omnivore. There’s some idiosyncratic lectin relationships. Then I’m always interested in looking at someone’s metabolic type. Layered on top of the blood type. For someone if I can use you as an example Ashley I don’t know what your blood type is but if you’ve got PCOS you’ve definitely got some thrifty metabolic tendencies. Meaning when your body is restricted from calories or if it’s eating a lot of empty calories, refined sugars and refined carbohydrates, it’s going to suck those calories away as fat for future times of deprivation. If you’re not giving your body good nutrient-dense foods if you have a thrifty metabolic type. You’re actually going to have a very hard time starving yourself into losing weight and you’re going to feel like crap. You’re going to be irritable, you’re going to be hangry, you’re hormone are going to be completely imbalanced. Your mood can be affected etc.

It’s really important to understand if somebody has that thrifty metabolic type to find the foods that are going to stoke the digestive fires and be healthy sources of calories and nutrients for that person. Depending on whether you’re a type O with a thrifty metabolic type or a type A with a thrifty metabolic type layered on top I would make diff kinds of food recommendations. One thing I can say across the board which I think you probably already know, hopefully, a lot of your listeners already know is that, the amount of whole foods, meaning vegetables and fruits and those types of high fiber foods are going to be excellent for keeping your hormones balanced because the fibers really feed the beneficial bacteria that help your body eliminate excess inflammatory estrogens and some of the excess toxins that are in your system that might be having that feedback to your hormonal balance as well. High fiber is sort of a general statement that I can make across the board that’s beneficial for both gut health and inflammation and the therefore hormonal health. Then also foods that are really beneficial to feed the beneficial bacteria. There’s a lot of types of probiotic supplementation out there that some of those things have the prebiotic fiber in them and healthy fibers and then there things like large arabino galectin and supplements but some of those things can actually just amplify the effects of a healthy diet. It’s always got to address the diet and the gut health no matter what the imbalance or chronic problem is.


[39:25] Ashley James:  How much fiber is a good – I mean not like I’m sitting there with Metamucil or flax going, “Well, I got to put another five tablespoons,” not like that but if we were to eat a pound –


[39:39] Dr. Ginger Nash: Five cups.


[39:40] Ashley James:  Five cups of vegetables a day?


[39:43] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. That or fruits because fruits are high in fiber as well. Blueberries are ounce per ounce one of the highest-fiber foods there are. That’s a good rule of thumb. It’s like five cups. Over the summer I lost some weight myself, I was perimenopausal as I’ve mentioned earlier. I’m still cycling but I had put on 10 pounds without really knowing it and then I stepped on the scale and I’m like, “Oh, that’s interesting. My pants feel a little diff.” I did actually start to measure out some of my foods just for a short period of time so I could really get an eyeball. It’s amazing if you start eating five cups of vegetables or fruits per day, your elimination system is going to definitely improve. Last year eating a ton of processed refined flour products which can certainly slow down the bowel movement and create more irritated mucus which can then give you some digestive problems. If you just simply add in foods and I really like to do that as well with my patient base because I like to focus on the things that are beneficial and use food as medicine rather than having people focus on a restrictive mindset all the time. If you just naturally start adding in five cups of veggies that’s going to be so much more filling that you’re just not going to eat as much as the processed refined foods. That’s a good blanket statement that I can make because really all the dietary advice I give is pretty highly individualized.


[41:30] Ashley James: Oh, for sure. Absolutely. Someone with small intestine overgrowth is going to have a totally different diet than someone who has GERD. Right absolutely.


[41:37] Dr. Ginger Nash: Except their vegetables. Yes, totally. Another cool little dietary thing before we leave that topic there is a great carrot salad recipe that I’ve recommend dot a lot of women. If you just grate some organic carrots, of course, they can be heirloom, they can be the regular orange ones whatever you like, a grated carrot with a little tiny bit of lemon juice, little bit of olive oil, sea salt or if you do apple cider vinegar in small amounts. Even some of the other vinegars that can be really excellent for helping balance your estrogens. That’s a little food thing that almost everyone can tolerate carrots. I haven’t met too many patients that are sensitive to carrots. Generally, that’s a rule.


[42:30] Ashley James:  Why is a carrot salad good for balancing hormones?


[42:34] Dr. Ginger Nash: It has a certain amount of fibers in it and it feeds some of those beneficial bacteria. It has an effect on the calcium d-glucarate in the gut which helps your body eliminate inflammatory estrogen. Isn’t that cool?


[42:49] Ashley James:  Yes, it’s very cool. Before we move on to the vaginal health, I definitely want to get to that. You mentioned gut-clearing hormones being phased three. For those who don’t know, can you just explain what that is? We hear that high estrogens really bad for us but we don’t know the difference between the estrogen the body makes and the estrogen the body want to eliminate?


[43:11] Dr. Ginger Nash: Right. Perfect. There’s three different major metabolic pathways or clearance if you will. It’s what happens in your liver to your hormones to help your hormones break down and be eliminated from your body phase one is the first phase of that process. Phase two and I don’t need to go into a big biochemistry lecture. Basically your liver had to go through phase one and phase two and then it kicks into the gut because the blood that circulates from the liver gets emptied into the gut. Then it’s phase three elimination or detoxification is what is related to the health of your microbiome and actually getting those hormone byproducts into your stool so that you can eliminate them. Some of the hormone testing that I use is a urinary metabolite testing. We can actually see how well those liver enzymes are doing in terms of eliminating the various estrogens and which pathway they’re going down because if you got a high – what’s called 4-hydroxy pathway, if you’ve got  a lot of the estrogens going down that pathway you’re going to be a lot more symptomatic.

The 16 pathway also gives you a lot of symptoms like PMS, bloating, the discomfort that a lot of women feel prior to their period and then the 4 pathways is the one that really is more inflammatory and does damage to the DNA. It’s sort of the pre-cancerous pathway. Then the two pathway is the pathway that you would like to see preferentially in a woman. You can do hormone testing through urine metabolites as I’ve said. We can see is your body doing a good job of eliminating these estrogens? Because as we have said from the beginning of the conversation, we don’t want to just have low estrogen that’s not good. Estrogen is really important and it’s especially important after we go through menopause because it is an anti-aging type of hormone in our bodies. Of course, we don’t want to get type of estrogen that’s going to lead to a breast cancer or another type of overgrowth of the cells in an unhealthy way where the DNA is damaged and you’re more likely to have a cancer formation.


[45:43] Ashley James:  Got it. So once a body’s done with the estrogen we need to clear it out


[45:49] Dr. Ginger Nash: That’s phase three.


[45:52] Dr. Ginger Nash: Right. What I hear is that when we have constipation for example or we’re just not having enough healthy bowel movement in the body that the gut reabsorbs and can actually reactivate the estrogen so we can become estrogen dominant because of our gut health, because of poor gut health.


[46:12] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes, we could recirculate the estrogens and if you’re taking hormone replacement even bioidentical hormones they can be problematic in terms of the recirculation and you can get elevated levels of certain hormones if you’re moving your bowels in a regular basis. Absolutely. Hugely important topic of healthy bowel movement. I talked to people about poop every day. [Laughter] “Hi, nice to meet you. Please take off most of your clothes so I can do a whole-body thermography scan and now we’re going to talk about your poop.” People have to get real conformable real quick. Actually you know, the health of the vaginal microbiome is related to this too. I think it’s really fascinating that the vagina which is designed to have something come in from the outside it’s an area that’s exposed. Its’ muscle membranes that are exposed to the outside world. It doesn’t have the diversity that the gut microbiome has. You actually don’t want a great diversity of flora in the vaginal tissue as you do in the gut. The effects of antibiotics or the effects of the birth control pill or a number of drugs event he effects of PPI’s and other things that are used to manage digestive symptoms can have a huge effect on not just the microbiome of your gut but the vaginal microbiome as well. You can get a lot of problem with overgrowth in both systems and you need to address them differently.


[47:56] Ashley James:  How do we address yeast infections or that would be the overgrowth right? We call that a yeast infection?


[48:02] Dr. Ginger Nash: Well, it depends because you can get overgrowth of other things too. Yeast is probably one of the most common organisms that we see overgrowing and not only that Ashley, it doesn’t always – again, it’s like I with everything was a little bit more simple but it’s not. Sometimes for a lot of women it, not a matter of how much yeast they actually have in their bodies. By the way, type O’s definitely have a higher what’s called candida carriage. We just have higher levels of yeast because blood type O antigen is a preferred food source for candida and other yeast. Type O’s might have higher levels of yeast but it’s also a matter of how sensitive the person is to the yeast in their system. This is going down a little bit of a tangent. I’ll get back to answering your question.


[48:58] Ashley James: I love this tangent. Keep going.


[48:59] Dr. Ginger Nash: That’s one of the things that I’m working with these new therapies and the office that I’m working in Fairfield, Connecticut now which is called Fairfield family health is doing LDA and LDI therapy. I don’t know if you’re familiar with these but they’re therapies that have been around basically since the 1950s. They have grown in popularity recently although they’re still pretty new to the world of natural medicine and they were created by medical doctors. What it is it’s immune desensitization or immune tolerance to various substances. You can do the treatment LDA for environmental sensitives for food sensitivities and you give a very small dose. This is why it just made so much sense to me once I started familiarizing myself with this and being educated and now I’ve listened to a tremendous amount of info I’m actually going to my first conference about this on Oct 9th. It just makes so much sense because it’s not a matter of having an infection of having toxins in your system that you can’t get rid of because you’re so overwhelmed with the environmental toxins like food toxins. It’s more a matter of your immune system getting caught in this vicious cycle of creating to something. This is where something like LDA can be really helpful because it gives you infinitesimal doses like homeopathic doses essentially. These substances that give your body a tolerance to various substances. Like I said, the LDAS are more for the environmental and the food sensitivities but the LDI is really the outgrowth from DR. Ty Vincent of LDI therapy and he’s turned it low dose immunotherapy and that’s using more specific pathogens. I’ve used candida and yeast and also I treat a tremendous amount of Lyme disease and co-infection and there’s an entire Lyme next so you can use this specific pathogens to break that cycle of sensitivity. It’s not like you’re using oregano oil or boric acid or diatomaceous earth or all this things that can kill yeast. you’re using something that actually helps your immune system become more tolerant to his thing that’s in our bodies. We all have yeast in our systems. It’s just a matter of have we been antibiotics ten times in the last ten years? Do we have this incredible overgrowth or do we just have a certain sensitivity to the yeast and that’s really what’s driving all of our symptoms.


[52:05] Ashley James:  Got it. If someone doesn’t have a massive overgrowth but if their immune system is mounting this massive response to a small amount of yeast which naturally occurs in all of us then it’s more about dealing with an allergy.


[52:20] Dr. Ginger Nash: Exactly. You can even use, it gets really deep. It’s a beautiful approach really and I love that Dr. Vincent is totally transparent about how we really don’t know like the science is not there. The research has not been done, there’s been advances in this type of therapy but we really don’t know. We think we understand what’s happening is that the substances that’s administered in this very small amount Is up regulating the T-lymphocytes and giving your immune system a chance to recognize if you will. This is something that doesn’t need to go crazy and attack. It’s giving you that tolerance and desensitizing your system to this particular substance. One of the things that I’m really excited about treating using this therapy is Hashimoto’s thyroid because there’s a pretty strong case and literature for a pathogen called Yersinia to stimulate to be the trigger to this autoimmune thyroid disease and we can uses LDI to again create a situation in the body where it’s not making the antibodies. You can see this with follow-ups, with blood tests for antibody levels you can see it with yeast. You can see it with Hashimoto’s. The ATA and the TPO anti-bodies you can see it with all the lime pathogens, abicia, Bartonella and I’ve also been starting to treat some women with herpes simplex virus that have had outbreaks of herpes for many years. When you know the offending trigger what the pathogen is that might be involved in any of these processes and certainly in terms of vaginal health and yeast overgrowth you can absolutely sue this type of therapy to desensitize the person to the yeast that is present.

You may also want to do some yeast killing. It depends that’s based on clinical context of “Did they get a wet prep? The gynecologist said, “You know yes, there’s tremendous amount of yeast.” or there’s BV or there’s others organisms or there’s just a lot of white blood cells which means it’s an immune-mediated inflammation and that can happen with chronic UTIs as well. That’s another thing that a lot of women struggle with this chronic UTIs and the more antibiotics they get put on, what’s going to happen? They’re just going develop more candida overgrowth and then that could potentially stimulate an inflammatory process. There’s a lot of creative ways to address this. I just love the idea of supporting the immune system because that to me is through Naturopathic medicine. That’s what we learned in school and what I was definitely reinforced with by Dr. Jaquel, my main homeopathic teacher was that we’re not born with this specific immune system, we have to learn as babies what is self first. Recognize what our self-tissues look like and antigens look like. Then our immune system has to learn specific defenses. Some of this process this immunological process gets really confused that’s why there’s so much autoimmune disease.

Again, we destroyed our microbiomes. We’ve been exposed to all this toxins. We’ve been exposed to all this antigens and climate change has encouraged the rampant spread of tech borne diseases and mosquito-borne disease and all that. As a population, we’re really dealing with a lot more chronic pathogens but even once we’ve cleared the infection stage, we may still have this immune process that’s continuing like a vicious cycle. It’s a really exciting time for me personally as a doctor because I, for many years used a number of complex homeopathic to support the nonspecific aspect of the immune system. With nutrient and with diet as well. I’ve done a lot with supporting the nonspecific aspects of inflammation and histamine reactions. Cytokines and all those kinds of things. Now I’m starting to use more of the specific antigens with it. It’s really been cool. I’m seeing some really great results already. It’s very exciting.


[57:17] Ashley James:  Yes. You mentioned all the things that have caused our immune system to go haywire in the last 30 years, what about vaccines? Now, by 2015 by the age of six children would receive 49 doses of vaccines. By the age six. A total of about 70 doses of vaccines are recommended by the time they’re like 21 or something like that. Whereas when I was a child, it was maybe 16?


[57:51] Dr. Ginger Nash: Wow. Yes. You know you’re going to drag me into the vaccine conversation.


[57:55] Ashley James:  No. I meant I don’t want to like – because that’s a whole episode onto itself but do you think that – [crosstalk] Yes, many episodes we could spend on that. Could you add that to the list of the things that are causing our immune system to not really understand how to deal with stuff? Like why is the autoimmune in the last 40 years has skyrocketed?


[58:19] Dr. Ginger Nash: That’s really the main thrust of what Dr. Jaquel taught me right when I graduated from Naturopathic medical school all the way back in 1998. My friend and I flew to New York in this French medical doctor came over and just blew our minds. That was the main thing that he would say. It’s not that vaccines cause autism or vaccines cause diarrhea or whatever. It’s that when they’re administered in such high amounts, they can overwhelm in certain individuals. They can overwhelm the immune system and it causes this perturbation in that natural process of what I just said the body’s ability, the baby’s ability really to recognize self from non-self. That’s a lot of information you’re putting into a little child. About from the outside not just the pathogens but all of the adjuvant ingredient and yadah, yadah. We don’t have to go down that rabbit hole. I’m sure you know a lot about it. I’m sure your listeners know a lot about it. Unfortunately, it’s become this insanely polarizing issue in our society and nobody can really even talk to each other about it. It’s really bad.


[59:36] Ashley James:  I’ve got a great interview that’s very balanced. Because people really want to get polarized. People really want to be for or against them. I have a wonderful interview that feels very balanced. Honors both sides. I’ll make sure I’ll link it in the show notes. He’s a pediatrician who has a very busy practice in Portland. I think he has three or four other pediatricians and a Naturopath. Sorry, MDs and a Naturopath and nurses all working with him. They have tens of thousands of patients and in his many years of working there, he has not had one case of full-blown autism because what he says is he does an altered schedule but 50% of his patients choose not to vaccinate because they are attracted to him because he believes in informed consent. Then he has the other 50% chose to do altered schedule. One dose at a time they come in for one and then they monitor and see how the child is. He has a very different altered schedule for those who choose to vaccinate. He wrote a book on it. I think it’s called Safe Vaccines or something like that. The second they see a regression in the child or any kind of reaction they stop. 100% stop vaccines and that’s it. No, this child is not a candidate for them. That’s how he prevents having vaccine injury in his clinic.

Before he started his clinic many years ago he worked as an early pediatrician. He was in a clinic where when children were talking or walking and then they had their vaccine doses and they stopped talking or walking, it was encouraged to keep going. Keep giving the doses. Keep going. He felt so bad because he felt as though he was part of basically causing vaccine injury in children. He would see it and he would argue with other doctors in the clinic because he was such a new doctor they’re like, “Who are you? Don’t question big pharma. Don’t question anything. Keep going.” He made it his mission to look into this. Anyway his whole thing is if you’re going to do vaccines here’s the safest way to do it based on his incredible met clinical experience. I love what you said that from birth we’re putting in this foreign antigens and foreign stuff in the baby and the immune system hasn’t even had the chance to learn who is self and who is not-self.


[01:02:20] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. The only defense that we have is – Dr. Nayek used to say it forces the immune system to try and create this specific antibodies before it’s really mature enough to do so. That’s why for me personally, like with my son, once he was 7 which is when naturally our bodies are able to form specific antibodies, I felt a lot more comfortable thinking about the vaccine question before he was 7. You really only have the non-specific immune defense which is inflammation and fever. That’s why so many people see their children get this incredible inflammatory conditions and of course, fevers after vaccinations. Not to mention what it’s doing to the microbiome. All of that


[01:03:16] Ashley James: I didn’t meant to go there. [Crosstalk] We had to cover that.


[01:03:24] Dr. Ginger Nash: Totally. It’s just one of these things that I don’t want to post on social media about it because you just can’t question anything without being accused of being this rabid anti-science, anti-vaxxer you know like crazy person. It’s awful that that’s where we’re at.


[01:03:43] Dr. Ginger Nash: That’s the problem. They’re using a strawman and a red herring, these linguistic fallacies to throw us off our game. The problem is we need to sit down and have an educated discussion about everything so that we can make a better future for ourselves and for our children. They want us fighting against each other because then we don’t if we’re fighting amongst ourselves we don’t rise up to make them change things. We’re fighting amongst ourselves and then we’re questioned a being like you said, anti-science or whatever. I’m not either side. I’m pro-kid and pro-health. Let’s just focus on supporting our body’s ability to heal itself. I really want to make sure we cover it. You created a course, now is this course available to purchase?


[01:04:38] Dr. Ginger Nash: No. It was actually just like a little – Dr. Nayek and I just decided we were going to do just a little like, “Hey, let’s just see how this goes in terms of giving women some information.” We have a Facebook group. We share a ton of content for free. It’s just part of building our tribe. Helping empower women, there’s always women that will need more specific support, we’re happy to have more patients from that community. Really at this point, I am just committed to sharing this information as much as possible. We created this little mini-course and we did our first one of vaginal health and we want to do another one about breast health coming up. Just get on our lists and you’ll find out about it. Go to our site band, sign up to any one of our free downloads and you’ll be on our email list. We don’t email more than I would say once a month which all of the marketing people say, “Oh, now you’ve got an email every week”. Don’t worry we’re not going to clog up your inbox with tons of emails. Yes, we did this course about vaginal and vulvar health just because as we said earlier, it’s an area of the body that a lot of women are googling about. They’re not actually talking to their doctors or talking to other women because it’s an area that a lot of women have a lot of shame around which is really sad but it’s the truth. We live in a patriarchal society and it’s interesting that we do refer to the area as our vagina because the vagina as I mentioned earlier is really just a canal that is penetrated in sexual intercourse. If you’re having sex with a man but it’s not –


[01:06:27] Ashley James: It’s not the fun part.


[01:06:28] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes, exactly. Even the way we speak about it and talk about it is informed by our culture but we wanted to do this be a lot of women do have vaginitis and we certainly talked about yeast vaginitis and certain natural supplements can be beneficial and sometimes over the counter stuff is fine. It’s not like you have to see a Naturopath if you have a single yeast infection but if you’re getting yeast infection after yeast infection and you can’t clear them and you’ve got another problems. Vulvodynia developing which is painful sex in the vulvar area which is again another thing that a lot of women struggle with. Then yes, you probably need some more focused support. Then of course, if you’ve had imbalances in the vaginal flora. This can lead to a more prone situation to develop bacterial vaginosis and imbalance in the flora can lead to symptoms. Discharge and discharge is normal for women. Vaginal discharge at different points in the month. You obviously discharge more when you’re ovulating. There’s that cervical mucus. Discharge that’s painful or irritating or discharge that’s itchy or causing itching in the vulvar areas then you may want to get checked out or discharge that smells a little off. All these things can be addressed certainly with natural medicine. I’ve had some funny home remedies that are totally safe. One of the things that I love to recommend to women that they can do especially women if you’ve had any kind of chronic yeast can cause almost even features where the tissues is actually splitting and tremendously painful. One of the best things that I’ve found that’s readily available and inexpensive is Ghee clarified butter.


[01:08:39] Ashley James:  Really?


[01:08:40] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. Ghee is super duper rich in butyric acid that where butter gets its name from. Butyric acid is used as enemas. Ulcerative colitis. Butyric acid has an amazing ability to heal up the mucosa of birth the gut and the vaginal tissue and the vulvar tissues. It’s totally safe and it smells nice. You can actually use Ghee topically. I know some women that have used coconut butter or coconut oil. I just tend to like the medicinal aspect of the Ghee a little bit more. Then there’s some other things I recommend like pomegranate oil is an amazing, safe, and natural constituent of some of the – I actually used a particular brand of products that I love that are formulated by a friend of mine and they’re called Curious Intimacy and she makes beautiful product that are all-natural, all organic. One of them, in particular, has a good amount of pomegranate oil. That’s long been known to have these potent antioxidant effects but it also reduces tumor necrosis factor activities. Tumor necrosis factor is a molecule that will damage again epithelial cells throughout the body, in the lining of the gut and the vaginal tract as well. It’s going to reduce inflammation that causes damage to the epithelial cells. You probably aren’t going to get the same effect from drinking pomegranate juice although pomegranate juice is also very medicinal as well. It feeds actually really beneficial bacteria in the gut. Pomegranates are wonderful foods for a variety of women’s health conditions but the oil, in particular, I really like to use for vaginal health.


[01:10:42] Ashley James: Topically?


[01:10:43] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. Topically. Then one of the other things that I like to do topically is cumin seed oil. If you do get it’s found as an essential oil and I believe if you put just one or two drops into a carrier oil like almond oil or even ghee or pomegranate I’ll if you get some pome oil. That can be really beneficial as an anti-yeast as is oregano. Oregano people take oral, encapsulated oregano oil which is wonderful for infections and yeast. That’s another thing that I’ve recommend to women. If you get essential oil just be sure you don’t put straight oregano oil or cumin seed oil on the vaginal tissues. You absolutely have to have a carrier oil. That’s something that I’ve recommended to women as well. It’s great because a little thing of essential oils lasts a long time you only need one or two drops. It’s not a drug. It’s not a pharmaceutical and it’s going to have any other side effects that some of the medicines that are used to treat yeast-like Diflucan which is a very common prescription from your gynecologist. If you’ve got yeast infection take one or two doses of Diflucan. Puts a little bit of stress in your liver if you don’t need to do that I’m sure there’s lots of listeners who would rather try something natural.


[01:12:23] Ashley James:  Absolutely. Then there’s more studies that are coming out. They’re showing that there’s several antibiotics that inhibit the body from producing collagen and that later on they’re seeing that aortic aneurysm and things like the Achilles tendon erupting.


[01:12:42] Dr. Ginger Nash: Oh, you’ve hit on one of my favorite topics, which is fluoroquinolones. Okay. So here’s a little story about Dr. Ginger. I was training for a half marathon and I was a chronic UTI sufferer. For many years I had [inaudible 01:12:57]. I carried myself into [Inaudible 01:12:59]. I tend it’s just one of my weak spots. I tend to get bladder infections. I’m training for this half marathon it’s during the summer that I training and I get totally dehydrated it was a really hot summer. This was a few years ago. A number of years ago actually eight. Anyway, I get a UTI. I do all of my usual stuff and it’s just not working, I can’t keep up and I can feel it. Sort of, I’ve had 2 kidney infections as well. I feel it traveling into my kidney. I’ve been training for this race for several months and I really don’t want to miss this race because I have a UTI or it’s going to my kidney because you feel really crappy when you’ve got  kidney infections. You get a fever and it’s very serious you need antibiotics immediately. I call my medical doctor friend and I say, “Can you call me in a script for an antibiotic? I have a bladder infection that I’m afraid is traveling to my kidney.” He’s a surgeon. That was a bad idea. He was being nice and doing me a favor but this is a lesson in like go to your regular doctors that take care of you and get prescriptions from people that know your comprehensive health history. He called in a script for Cipro.

I didn’t want to bother him and call him back. He’s a really busy surgeon so I took the Cipro and I ran the half marathon. I can’t believe I didn’t blow up my Achilles but I developed tendonitis in every major tendon in my body. I broke out in hives all over my back. All over my chest. I remember I was caught in traffic in 95. For those of you that live on the east coast 95’s middle name is traffic. I was caught in traffic and I’m looking in the rear view mirror and am like, “My face looks kind of weird and I’m itchy.” and I looked up my neck and I’ve got hives in my neck, hives on my back, hives all over my torso. Of course, my doctor wanted to put me on steroids I was like, “No way. I’m not going on steroids.” I developed this Cipro reaction and I’m sure it was because I stressed my body running the 13 miles and had been taking this medication which you are exactly right, it upsets the collagen. It actually disrupts the DNA and it can cause permanent disability in various connective tissues in the body.

That’s why the aortic aneurysm is coming to light. Those drugs are bad news. They should really be, I would be willing to back they’re going to get pulled from the market. I really strongly recommended if you have UTI if you need some antibiotics get some Bactrim. Get some milder antibiotics, Macrobid, etc. stay away from those fluoroquinolones. They’re really hellacious and some people have had permanent disability from them. I feel like managed over time to get over the tendonitis but I got a tremendous amount of neuromuscular work and bodywork. I was taking a tremendous amount of natural anti-inflammatories and it took me a long time and I still have it’s not my Achilles but on the lower right limb I have a tendon on the outside of my leg I think it’s my peroneal tendon or something like that. Not peroneal because that’s your peroneus muscle but the peroneus muscle which is a postural muscle that had a tendon still bothers me like on a daily basis. Those drugs are super-duper scary. A lot of people have reactions to them. 


[01:16:41] Ashley James:  We have to remember that every drug that’s been taken off the market for killing people was first approved safe. When we come back to that vaccine argument, everyone’s yelling it’s safe. We have to remember that every single drug that’s been taken off the market for killing and naming people was first absolutely 100% stamped safe. We need to have a little bit of paranoia to survive in this world. We need to question everything. Do our research. Be willing to go get a second opinion or a third opinion by different kinds of doctors. Be willing to take in different information and weigh it. Weigh the pros and cons and not just go with the flow. I like saying this in the show if you want to be a statistic, if you want to be the one in three people that dies of cancer or one in three people dies of heart disease, the one in three people that has diabetes or pre-diabetes or is obese. If you want to be a statistic, then do what everyone else is doing. If you don’t want to be statistic and you want to live to your genetic potential of 120 years old disease-free and healthy, then you’ve got to go against the grain. We’ve got to be the oddball that says no to gluten and eats organic and goes get put essential oils in vulva and vagina. Those kinds of things. We’ve got to be a little bit out there but were going to make sure if we’re going against the grain that we’re not going to be statistic. Can you share with us what we can do? Let’s say now we recovered from our yeast infection or from everything’s back to normal after using the Ghee or using all the wonderful things you’ve mentioned or maybe adjusted our diet. Maybe looked at some emotional work because I heard that there’s a connection between stress levels emotional levels when women feel betrayed by their partner for example or when they have an affair and they feel guilty or shameful around it that there is an increase in UTIs and yeast infections. Looking at emotional state and emotional stress like the body’s a whole lifestyle, the body’s a whole. Once we come back and we’re no longer infected. How can we support the vagina and vulvar to have a healthy microbiome?


[01:19:10] Dr. Ginger Nash: Actually great question. First of all, stay away from bleached tampons. Stay away from all the chemical that are in most of your run of the mill feminine hygiene products, investigate using more of cups if those are comfortable for you. You know other types of ways of managing your menstrual blood. If you don’t mind using just pads, use pads. Watch out for sex toys that are made from inferior quality materials. Latex is a common allergy but there’s definitely you get what you pay for in terms of anything you’re putting inside your vagina. Buy the high-end sex toys if you’re going to go there. It’s something to invest in. Those are two things. Then something really simple that gets overlooked too is just staying hydrated because the vaginal tissue is a sensitive ecosystem. When you get dehydrated there’s a really strong correlation for dryness and when you get dry, you tend to get more tissue damage and keeping your hormone’s balanced overall is really – our vaginas and our vulvas are obviously connected to our bodies. An overall approach to your hormone health is definitely going to help the vaginal tissue, help the vulvar tissues. Eating a diet that’s anti-inflammatory for you. Some of that I mentioned earlier is pretty individualized but there’s definitely some broad strokes that we’ve touched upon and you touched upon Ashely, which is great. Hydrogenated fats and refined sugars and refined flours are pretty much bad for everybody. High fructose corn syrup is not going to make your body a happy place. No matter who you are, what your blood type is, what your metabolic type is, no matter what. Simple things like diet and hydration also just be careful what you put on your body including your vaginal tissue and your vulvar area. I do tend to use a lot of products and certainly recommend to many women not to use soaps. There’s been a lot about the purel and anti-bacterial hand sanitizers. Same thing applies to anything vaginally. You really don’t want to try and kill the good bacteria there. Staying away from harsh chemicals and perfumes and synthetics on that tissue would be definitely an important thing. Also the classic, peeing after sex if you need to wash after sex. Some women I know definitely like to do a little rinse. The products that I mentioned earlier made by my friend Elizabeth Moriarty, Curious intimacy. They have a wonderful After Play products which you can use which is oils as well with some essential oils with some beautiful natural ingredients, that’s definite a way to be proactive and preventive in terms of getting yeast infections. One of the oils, the After Play has the black cumin seed in it. There’s a number of things to do just to keep things healthy and balanced and lot of that is just some of your basic Naturopathic recommendations. Definitely tampons do not use bleached tampons at all.


[01:22:57] Ashley James:  What about the organic they’re like, they’re white but they say they’re organic. Is that okay or they’re also bleached?


[01:23:01] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. They should say whether they’re bleached I think there are some tampons that are made from organic cotton but they’re still bleached. I wouldn’t like that. Bleach is definitely going to mess up your microbiome and cause pain for some women.


[01:23:22] Ashley James:  What about douching with yogurt? That’s kind of a home remedy I learned from my mom. I haven’t need to do it since I was a teenager I think I did it once because my mom was like, “This is what we do.” Is that helpful?


[01:23:37] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. I mean I wouldn’t call it douching per se because I think of douching as like washing but you could certainly do a yogurt infusion. I’ve actually along with the Ghee there something else I recommend to women that I didn’t mention already for yeast. The Ghee is more soothing and healing up the irritated the mucosal membranes. For yeast, you could actually nick a little clove of garlic and insert that too. You definitely want to be aware that it’s going to burn for a little bit. I wouldn’t necessarily do it many days in a row. I’m a little cautious about saying this in a public forum because I certainly don’t want anybody to hurt themselves but for most women that can be incredibly soothing and anti-infective as well.


[01:24:32] Ashley James:  I’ve totally done the garlic thing. You will smell like garlic. You’re going to walk around being like, “I’m smelling Italian food all the time.” This was back when I was a teenager but it worked.


[01:24:42] Dr. Ginger Nash: You should work up with the oregano essential oil and the garlic. It’ll be like a food fest.


[01:24:43] Ashley James: Right. Mix it with the oregano that’s so funny, yes. Absolutely. It has been such a pleasure having you on the show today. Two more quick things. One, colloidal silver for the vagina, vagina right? The canal. Would you say that that is a good thing to use if we’re looking to combat an overgrowth?


[01:25:08] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. I’ve never used colloidal silver vaginally. I’ve used it in the sinuses and in net pots and washes. I’ve used colloidal silver spray and I’ve used it orally for viruses and whatnot. I tend to think of the silver as anti-viral so it wouldn’t be the first thing I would think of vaginally but I’m sure it could be beneficial if that’s the main issue. I just tend to think of it more as an anti-viral than an anti-bacterial or anti-yeast.


[01:25:42] Ashley James:  It’s less likely we have a viral infection down there


[01:25:46] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes, it’s less likely. Usually, if it’s a viral thing, it’s a herpes virus and it’s going to be transmitted through the nerve tissue. That’s why viral infections are so painful because it’s affecting the nerves. Doing something topically in the vaginal canal isn’t going to be as effective as doing some antivirals that would hit the nerve tissue.


[01:26:09] Ashley James:  Yes. Man, I can’t wait to have you back on the show. Just keep coming back. You’ve got so much to share.


[01:26:13] Dr. Ginger Nash: Aww, thanks, Ashley.


[01:26:14] Ashley James: This is so much fun. Now I’m going to make sure all the links to everything that Dr. Ginger Nash does is in the show notes of today’s podcast at and and everything else. Your Facebook group. We’ll put all the information in the show notes today. To wrap up today’s interview, I’d love for you to share some homework. Give us some homework. What do you want us to do? Get us to go out there and do something for our health.


[01:26:41] Dr. Ginger Nash: I think that what I mentioned earlier about that five cups of vegetables a day. If you make one change in your diet. Just start trying to eat five cups of vegetables a day. Like I said earlier, fill you up it’s going to automatically decrease the amount of processed foods you’re going to want to eat because those vegetables are not calorically dense. They’re tremendously beneficial for all the fiber content, all the antioxidant content, all the nutrients, the micro-minerals. I particularly love to recommended seaweed salad to people because so many people are mineral deficient. I know you live in Seattle, you have all the good sushi restaurants around you. That’s a really wonderful source of micro-minerals. That would be a good way to go. Get eating your veggies.


[01:27:34] Ashley James: I love it. Get your veggies in. I start my day with one pound of steamed vegetables because it’s the easiest thing to do. I can throw either fresh or frozen I could just throw a pound that’s about two cups and I throw that in the steamer. Well, I have like this bamboo thing at the Asian market we got this really cool bamboo steamer and you just put it on top of a wok or a big pot. I steam it while I’m getting the family ready to go in the morning. I eat my 1 pound of steamed vegetables and if I start my day that way, I am so satiated and so balanced. When I wait until the end of the day to get my vegetables in it’s just like, oh whatever. I’m like, “Why make an excuse?” So I get my vegetables in as soon as I can. One pound of vegetables and then I get another pound either for lunch or dinner or I split it up. I just found to just steam it and then I could throw stuff on it. I could throw hot sauce on it or some coconut aminos or some Bragg’s amino liquid or nutritional yeast. Whatever or cayenne or smoked paprika and it might be the same. I could have broccoli for entire week if I wanted to if I got lazy but it always tastes different because I put different stuff on it. I do rotate my vegetables and man that has been a life-changer.


[01:28:54] Dr. Ginger Nash: That’s so great. That’s such a good tip. Thank you for teaching me that because I tell people that all the time about exercise if you exercise in the morning you’re much more likely to stick to an exercise regimen and it’s true for vegetables too. I can totally see. We have such a perturbed crazy understanding of what breakfast is in this country. Eat vegetables for breakfast. The five cups of vegetables but try to get at least two cups or a cup there least for breakfast.


[01:29:22] Ashley James:  Get two cups. Oh, come on. One cup is like a snack. One cup I could like – I eat one cup like popcorn. If I have any leftover vegetables because I try to not eat after dinner because it’s I don’t need to fill up on calories to go to bed. It’s not like I’m running a marathon in my sleep but if I feel like a little puckish or carve something I will eat steamed vegetables after dinner as a snack and it’s like, “Yes. You know what? If you’re hungry you’re hungry for vegetables. If you’re hungry and you say no to vegetables then you’re not really hungry.” I have to keep facing that. More and more vegetables. Five cups, that’s our homework. We’re going to go do it.


[01:30:05] Dr. Ginger Nash: Homework, assignment. Next time I’m on I’m going to check in on everybody. Make sure you report back to Ashley that you’re doing this.


[01:30:13] Ashley James:  Awesome. Thank you so much, Dr. Ginger Nash. It was such a pleasure having you on the show today. Can’t wait to have you back.


[01:30:20] Dr. Ginger Nash: Thanks so much, Ashley. Bye.



Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition and how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity? Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business, support people in their success? Do you love helping people? You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrated Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health-coaching sort of vacation program and it really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over a hundred dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition but from the standpoint on how we can help people to shift their life, to shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health. I definitely recommend you check them out. You can google Institute for Integrated Nutrition or IIN, or give them a call or you can go to and you can receive a free module of their training. So check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in. Be sure to mention my name, Ashley James and the Learn True Health podcast because I made a deal with them that they would give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program. I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information. We need more health coaches. In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctor’s offices, you can work in hospitals. You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help with your local schools shift their programs to help children be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them and their success and their health goals. There’s so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach. So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrated Nutrition. Mention my name. Get the best deal. Give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month, so you’re going to want to call them now and check it out. If you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.

Are you looking to optimize your health? Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price? For high-quality supplements and to talk to someone about what supplements are best for you, go to and one of our fantastic true health coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are highest quality and the best price. That’s Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program.


Get Connected With Dr. Ginger Nash!



Recommended Readings:

Our Bodies, Ourselves – Judy Norsigian

Wild Feminine – Tami Lynn Kent

Pussy: A Reclamation – Regina Thomashauer

Oct 2, 2019

The Three Products/Companies Mentioned In Today's Interview and How To Get The Special Listener Discounts:
1) Sunlighten Sauna - Give them a call and mention Learn True Health with Ashley James. They offer financing and have several light therapy systems, including a small handheld device and a portable sauna!

Here is the link to the Sunlighten Handheld Device:

2) The Magnesium Soak! Visit and use coupon code LTH for our listener discount.
3) Energy Bits and Recovery Bits Algae! Visit and use coupon code LTH to get 20% off! Buy the Recovery Bits for the detoxifying chlorella!
Dr. Joel Kahn:
Author 5 books all in the shop at my website


Sauna Therapy and Heart Health with Dr. Joel Kahn


  • Benefits of sauna therapy
  • Benefits of Magnesium soak
  • Benefits of ENERGYbits and RECOVERYbits
  • Plant-based vegan diet is good for heart health
  • Diet and fitness of mind and body are important
  • The science of light therapy for healing
  • Benefits of Infrared sauna
  • Waon therapy of Japan
  • Importance of light for our health
  • Benefits of near infrared sauna
  • Benefits of red light
  • Photobiomodulation
  • Sunlighten lumiNIR
  • Saunas and weight loss
  • Kahn’s three tips: meditation, organic chlorella, HIIT workout
  • Congenital heart conditions in children and adults
  • People should be concerned about their arteries
  • ARVC heart condition
  • Organ meats and processed fat to heal autoimmune diseases
  • Books and doctors that Dr. Kahn follows
  • Kahn’s homework for listeners


In this episode Dr. Joel Khan will share with us his three tips to a good cardiovascular health, the importance of light to our health. Ashley and Dr. Khan will also discuss the science of light therapy for healing and how important diet and fitness for our body is.

[0:00] Intro: Hello, true health seeker.

Welcome to another exciting episode of Learn True Health podcast. You’re going to love today’s interview with cardiologist, Dr. Joel Khan. He’s a very unique cardiologist. He’s been a plant-based vegan for over 42 years. And he has this unique perspective on the body. He believes the body has an amazing ability to heal itself. And we just need to support it with the right diet, nutrients, lifestyle. And that we can support the body’s ability to heal and prevent disease. And isn’t that wonderful? Don’t you want a doctor that believes that you can be healthy?

He shares a lot of great information today. We talked a lot about using heat therapy and the different spectrums of light to help the body heal. And he says so much in such a short period of time. There’s so many details. He opened up so many rabbit holes that I know listeners are going to think to themselves, “Man, I need to get a pen. I got to write that down.”

And I want to let you know that we actually transcribe our interviews. We’ve been doing that for the last few months. We hired two wonderful transcriptionists. And we have been transcribing all of the interviews. So a big shout out, thank you to the transcriptionists, who helped us to transcribe. Because our listeners really love going to And then you can click on the episode. And I know that everyone’s been loving being able to have access to all the transcripts. So that when a guest shares so much wonderful information, like telling us about what books we should read, and what supplements we should try, or what lifestyle habits, tips and tricks we should try, we want all the details. And instead of having to listen to the episode two or three times, you can go the transcript and find exactly what the doctor said, which is really exciting. So that is my gift to you, the listener, so that you can make sure that you take all this information and help to transform your life and the health of your whole family and everyone you love. So make sure that you take advantage of our transcripts by going to www.learntruehealth. com.

Now, in this episode we mention three things. So I want to make sure that I cover it in the intro. A lot of the discussion is about sauna therapy, specifically using sunlight. And Sunlighten is the only company I have found and I have looked that is ultra low EMF that is non-toxic. And it uses the full spectrum near, mid, and far infrared. So they’re absolutely wonderful. I highly recommend calling Sunlighten and in talking to them about their different systems. They have what’s called the Solo System, which is portable. So you don’t need – if you don’t have a lot of space and you can just tuck it away under the bed or tuck it away in the closet when you’re not using it. That’s a really great solution for those who don’t want the bigger sauna. Which I have the big one, the wooden one, and I love it. Basically, two people can fit in it. It’s kind of like having a TARDIS, for those who know Doctor Who. It does not look very big but two people can fit in it which is really cool. And it has the full spectrum of near, mid, and far infrared. And we’ll get a little bit into that in the show today. The benefits of those different spectrums. 

If you want to learn more specifically about Sunlighten, I did two interviews. One with the cofounder and one with their manager, Alicia. So Connie Zack being the founder. You can go to and you can search in the search bar for Sunlighten or for sauna and find those episodes. And enjoy learning more about why I specifically love Sunlighten as a company when it comes to doing sauna therapy versus all the other companies out there. I’m really sold. I’ve really enjoyed my sauna. And I’ve gotten a lot of great health benefits. It’s helped me with my detox tremendously. It’s helped me with my liver. I had liver problems and it really helped me with that, It helped me with my weight loss. So I feel it is high quality and very effective. So that’s Sunlighten. Give them a call. They give our listeners a great deal. They give us free shipping. And they also throw in something else that’s really cool. And the special kind of keeps changing just depending on what’s going on in the office there. But they always give the listeners a really great discount or really great special. So make sure that you mention Learn True Health with Ashley James so that you get our listener special.

Now, we mentioned two other things. One is the magnesium soak. You have heard me rave about it over and over again. And I love soaking in magnesium while in my sauna. You only need a few cups of water in, like, a foot basin. And it is so wonderful. It opens up all the circulation. It really aids in the detoxification and feeding your liver all those wonderful nutrients it needs to help you with detoxification. So it’s a great one-two punch.

And then the third thing, are the ENERGYbits. Actually, specifically, the RECOVERYbits, which is chlorella. Chlorella is an algae that chelates heavy metals. And so it’s wonderful to eat before you get in the sauna because it aids in binding to the heavy metals and releasing them from our body. It also helps with melatonin production so that it actually aids in deeper sleep. And I’ve done about five interviews I think on the ENERGYbits. So you can type algae into the search function in to be able to listen to those episodes where we talk about spirulina and chlorella and all their health benefits. And it’s just wonderful. You can go to and use coupon code LTH to get 20% off. And make sure that you grab a bag of the ENERGYbits for your daytime energy. They’re wonderful. They’re spirulina. They actually taste really good compared to all the other spirulinas out there. They don’t have any of the lead or heavy metals that other companies have been known to have. Because ENERGYbits does very rigorous testing. And they have a pure water source when they grow their algae. So lots of great information that you can learn by going to and typing in algae and listening to those episodes. But just try it and see how you feel. Buy a bag of Energybits, buy a bag of RECOVERYbits. And RECOVERYbits is for the detoxification. ENERGYbits is for energy. And they don’t have any caffeine. It’s just all algae. But it delivers to the body all the nutrients that it needs to make energy and support hormone health. And I could go on and on. So you can check out those interviews.

But those are the three things that we had mentioned in the episode. And I want to let you know that all three of those things you can get a listener discount for. So to get the magnesium soak, you go to and type in the coupon code LTH at checkout. ENERGYbits is and type in the coupon code LTH at checkout. And then for your listener discount for Sunlighten, call them up, talk to one of their wonderful salespeople, and mention Learn True Health with Ashley James for the listener discount. And if you have any questions about any of these because I use them all the time and my whole family actually. We soak in magnesium. We eat the ENERGYbits and the RECOVERYbits. And we sweat in our sauna – in our Sunlighten Sauna. And so if you guys have any questions for me and my experience, please email me, I’d love to hear from you.

Excellent. Enjoy today’s episode and have yourself a wonderful rest of your day.



[8:04] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn true health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is Episode 383.

I am so excited for today’s interview. We have with us Dr. Joel Kahn. He’s an amazing cardiologist. But even more than cardiology. Because I’ve dived into your interviews and some videos, you’re kind of going up against Joe Rogan in a very polite interview. I was waiting for the gloves to come off. It’s very interesting to be a plant-based cardiologist and help people to reverse disease naturally with natural medicine, with food because we can heal the body with food. And that you are surprisingly an expert in so many of these fields. Some of my listeners – so I told them I was interviewing you – said, “I love him. I love his podcasts.” And so I started listening to your podcasts. And it’s amazing just how much you read and how much you share with the listener. So I definitely recommend listeners check out Dr. Joel Kahn’s podcasts. It’s such a pleasure to have you here today.



[9:02] Dr. Joel Kahn: Well, thank you. It’s really a nice and sincere. A little different than the standard credential introduction. And that’s pretty cool. Yeah, I call it a p-cast. A little bit different than yours. I would never have stayed doing podcasts for two-and-a-half years if I was taking long periods to interview people. So I just talk for 20 minutes. I teach on some subject. I call it a p-cast. It’s like a P in the pod, as you know from listening. But anyways, enough about that.

But I do. At age 60, I have this insane hunger to learn and learn what isn’t whoo as opposed to science. And that can be really tough sometime. If we can acknowledge that there’s whoo whoo advice out there all over the place.



[9:45] Ashley James: I like that you brought up your age because if listeners go and check out and saw your videos, they’re going to look at a young man who looks about 40, who is incredibly handsome, has tons of energy, and looks like he could win a boxing match against anyone. Like, you just look so good. And then when you said you’re 60, I’m like, “I really don’t believe it.” So that’s the power of the whole food plant-based diet is we actually become more energetic and look younger and have less disease.



[10:16] Dr. Joel Kahn: Number one, you know, you’re just smothering me with kindness. I just told you before we went on, I’m going to be out in Seattle for a high level medical conference in a few weeks. Now we’re going to have to find a wonderful plant restaurant and go celebrate with your husband and all that. But I actually adopted a plant diet at age 18. It wasn’t a master plan. It was in the time that we had Veggie Grill and Beyond Meat and all the movement that’s going on now, good and bad. It was a college reaction to horrible food and a good salad bar. But that was the last burger chicken piece of turkey I ate was 1977. So you know, every inch of augury and other crucial parts of my body have been bathe in broccoli and cauliflower and rubella for a very long time. And I’m grateful that that was kind of a cork and kind of a twist of fate that in a cardiology career couldn’t have been a better plan if I have had the insight. But it was an insight. It was just a quick little college dorm survival play that I just never went back.



[11:20] Ashley James: And a friend in college who went raw vegan because he didn’t have a fridge. So he just bought a bunch of fruit, like apples and basically lived on it. And it turned out he became – it made him incredibly healthy. That was like, “Whoa. That’s a really interesting survival mechanism.” At what point in your career as a cardiologist did you realize that how you’re eating was the optimal diet for heart health?



[11:44] Dr. Joel Kahn: Yeah, it didn’t take long. I actually got into a quick little program at the University of Michigan [inaudible 00:11:49]. I actually was accepted to med school at 17 or 18. And began some medical courses that early. And I was eating plants. I didn’t talk much about it because there wasn’t really a platform. And I didn’t know it was a therapy. If I had dug a little deeper, but I had no Sherpa to guide me, I could have found Nathan Pritikin in the 60s and 70s. I could have found even a couple older pioneers that I now know and study and respect. But really, I started practicing cardiology. I was like this animal in the cath lab. You’re having a heart attack, you’re having chest pain, I have your balloon, I have your aggressive therapy seven days a week.

And three weeks after that, Dr. Dean Ornish, one of the most eminent and deserving of appreciation lifestyle medicine doctors, published a paper. And I mean, I’m three weeks. And this guy that the answer to heart disease is, you know, procedures and balloons. And he puts out data that says you can actually halt and reverse heart disease with a lifestyle that was centered on whole food plant-based.  And added two things I love, fitness and mind body, and yoga, socialization. And I said, “Wow.”

So I’ve literally taught thousands of patients every month of my career since I begun. And it’s all serendipity. I’m just very fortunate. And I am proud to say I kind of grew up in this movement. But it wasn’t exactly proofed inside. I didn’t have a psychic tell me to do this things. It just played out well. I could have, you know, read a paper about bacon and I would have been just messed up for the rest of my career. But I invested well in the plant-based movement in terms of energy and personal health.



[13:32] Ashley James: Well, and it shows. You’re now – is it 42 or 43 years that you’ve now been vegan? And I mean, I am blown away. But there’s the evidence for you. If we eat a whole food plant-based diet, the way down the road we’re going to look younger and feel younger. And there’s so much science now showing that it prevents and reverses disease. So you love diving into all these different topics. And we have some questions from the listeners that we’ll get to in a little bit.

But I wanted to dive into this topic of saunas and infrared and red light. Because Sunlighten Sauna – actually Alicia at Sunlighten is the one that hooked us up for this interview. And she said that you are an amazing expert at understanding the science. And I’ve been raving about my experience with my Sunlighten. It has really helped me in my health journey. And also using light therapy like red light therapy. But I don’t understand the science. And so I’d love for you to teach us a bit about it. What made you want to dive into learning about sauna therapy and using these kind of light therapies for healing?




[14:36] Dr. Joel Kahn: I took my nutritional knowledge and had my standard cardiology career and did that for a long time. Always offering these patients more than just prescriptions. But about ten years ago, I found a program at a university that you could call Integrative Cardiology. Like some people go back and get an MBA in the weekends at Harvard or whatever. I found the equivalent but it was in my field. But the integrated science based use of food and supplements and stress. And one of the topics was a presentation – several hours – on the science. And I stress, everything I do as odd as it is sometimes, is stimulated when I find that there’s actually science. It’s credible in hopefully multiple studies.

So about 30 plus years ago, and I can’t tell you who was the first that had the spark, but in Japan they started applying infrared saunas. So you’ve got your steam sauna at 180 degrees. A lot of health clubs. Some people have that adapter in their shower and they can make it all steamy. You’ve got kind of the dry Tucson, Arizona sauna with a little box in the corner. Some people have that at home.

And then infrared, it’s a little different. It looks like the wood box of an Arizona sauna. But in the walls are very special panels, infrared emitting panels. We have our – it doesn’t need to be real science-y. I mean, everybody’s sitting in a room right now that probably has a light bulb that’s emitting a spectrum of light. Some are purple, some are greens, some are red, some are blue, yellow wavelengths that make it look white in that combination. But it turns out that there is a slice of light energy called infrared. And we can’t see it. It’s not a visible light.

And these researchers in Japan built infrared saunas. Boxes that have these panels and emit infrared energy. And they would take various – first they did animal studies, which is ultra cool. And the animal study showed a beneficial response to blood vessel function, muscle function, the real basic chemistry. It turns out, we actually have receptors in ourselves. You know, you think we really are more like plants and we think we are like plants. There actually is a very cool science that actually says we’re not so different than the birch tree and the oak tree you might be seeing out a window, perhaps. But anyways, we have receptors in these basic models. And then they started studying sick heart patients in Japan. And these were in academic centers and they published data. You have high blood pressure, you use an infrared sauna. There’s a Japanese word called waon, W-A-O-N. It means healing warmth. And most of the literature anybody could put in their browser, waon, W-A-O-N, therapy and start reading about it. Fifteen minutes in an infrared sauna, usually about 130 hundred or 140 degrees if you give it time to heat up. Then these people would be wrapped up in towels, drink some water, and rest. Because they were not really healthy athletes. They were people with blood pressure and heart damage and heart attacks.

And over the course of 10 or 15 years, they showed that blood pressure responded; congestive heart failure, a really serious diagnosis, responded; artery measures showed improvement. They actually have done some modest sized randomized studies. Sick people got infrared saunas, sick people just got standard therapy, there was an improvement in survival and hospitalization. And in Japan, infrared sauna is used as a first line therapy right there with medication or surgery or whatever else you need. But God knows, until those few hours of lectures, I had never heard in any university -and I’m a professor at a university in Detroit – about any of this. And it’s easy. Now, read the literature, read the literature. It was real. And it’s been reproduced.

So most of us, thank goodness don’t have bad arteries, don’t have congestive heart failure. Most of us aren’t mice in laboratories. But you know, for many ways of supporting our health, I tell my patients, there’s two therapies you don’t know about probably. One a little pricier and one a little less pricey. They both involve using light to accentuate our health and accelerate our energy production and benefit our weight and benefit our skin and benefit our blood pressure. And the higher end one is to research and get a really good infrared sauna like Sunlighten makes. I have one in my bedroom. And their brand called full spectrum. And this is science again. But it’s far infrared, near infrared, and mid infrared in each of those wavelengths. When you turn it on, it’s hot, you can’t see the light waves but they’re there. Each of them has a different effect.

But the near infrared, which is abbreviated in the literature NIR, is really cool because that stuff really works on our muscles. And athletes, if any athletes are listening, many, many professional athletic teams will have various kinds of light therapy and infrared sauna. Because before an athletic event like a football game or after, before basketball or after, recovery pain or they call it delayed onset muscle soreness or DOMs can all be treated. And everything I just said has science and publications. It’s not again to whoo but just not very well known. And I got excited. So many, many of my patients do enjoy it. There may be some other benefits. So you know, we all know it’s the Debbie Downer talk. City water, air, plastics that wrap our burger, whether it’s a Beyond Meat burger or a Black Bean Burger, wherever you’re buying, all these chemicals, these endocrine disrupting chemicals are affecting our fertility and our thyroid and our weight. And one way to get them out – because it’s really hard to keep from having any of them, of course, we want to try and create a lifestyle where we don’t have plastics everywhere and exposure. Air fresheners and perfumes that are all affecting our endocrine system. Infrared sauna does cause you to detoxify and eliminate these better than just gym sweating.

You can imagine somebody did a study, “I’m going to run around a gym and collect sweat droplets from people at an elliptical. And I’m going to go to an infrared sauna room and collect sweat droplets from somebody just sitting still.” And there’s more toxins concentrated in the sweat from an infrared sauna than there are from exercising. And of course both are good. And there are even some gyms now that have put infrared panels in the walls of the gym so you get double whammy. But yeah, very cool stuff for the science of waon therapy and infrared sauna.



[21:24] Ashley James: You mentioned that we have receptors on our cells, is that to receive light? To receive infrared? Can you tell us a bit more about that.



[21:33] Dr. Joel Kah: Yeah. So just switching gears a little. Infrared is there but you can’t see it. Then there’s red light. Red lights, easy. I mean, it looks like the matrix. It’s bright. I mean, it’s the one with the one band of the full spectrum. And a prominent researcher at Harvard by the name of Michael Hamblin, H-A-M-B-L-I-N, PhD or MD – I think a PhD – has spent 30 years and many, many publications and textbooks that costs $700. The official name is Photobiomodulation, photolight bio or biology, and we can change our biology through light. But it’s often called the low level laser or red light therapy. But it turns out every one of us have, I think it’s fair to say, billions and billions of mitochondria in our muscles, heart muscles and skeletal muscles, particularly. They’re making all that energy. If anybody’s had the biology background, the ATP energy that keeps our heart strong and our muscles strong, and the rest.

And there is a receptor in the system that makes energy. It’s an enzyme called cytochrome c oxidase. And that receptor will respond to red light. And when it is exposed to red light, it will accelerate this process of making energy. It also creates more nitric oxide. If you ask an athlete who knew biology or a trainer, if you created more nitric oxide that was free to circulate and help an athlete’s blood vessels and you created more efficiency in making ATP in their muscles, do you think it would benefit an athlete either performance or recovery? And they think, “I got it. I’d pay a fortune for such.” It turns out red light does that. Proven. The science is known. And it’s a little different. When you get an infrared sauna, you’re getting near infrared energy. And it’s a wonderful thing and it will activate this receptor. But you also might want to explore the field of Photobiomodulation using red light.

So Sunlighten has this wonderful little handheld device called lumiNIR. There’s some things that red light does that go beyond near infrared and the combination is the powerhouse. I literally use a red light panel in my near infrared sauna and I get both. Because I wouldn’t be getting red light in my sauna alone.

But for all the listeners who want to keep their skin youthful, there’s an FDA approved. This is science backed by years of analysis. That it may promote collagen production, relieve aging spots, wrinkles in the skin. It’s the vanity part. But who doesn’t. You know, eating healthy is clearly beauty inside out is clearly real and the key. But I’m not against using safe therapies that keep us looking a little more youthful. So in the past 12 months, I’ve added red light therapy for 12 or 15 minutes a day. And it’s not tanning and you’re not going to burn yourself. And just another add on to health. It’s fascinating, you know, fascinating.



[24:38] Ashley James: Yeah. I have one of Sunlighten’s lumiNIRs. It’s a handheld device and they have those different attachments. You can do the blue light or the red light and depending on whether you want to support like a joint pain or you want collagen production. It’s very interesting. And I know Sunlighten and gives our listeners a discount. I’m not sure what it is but I’ll find out for the listeners. So bios photo modulation, you mentioned that it helps the body – helps the mitochondria to produce more ATP and they’ve been able to prove this. Or is it that it helps the production of nitric oxide.



[25:12] Dr. Joel Kahn: It actually does both. So if you really want to go deep – here we go. It’s called uncaging nitric oxide on this enzyme. Here, you got a muscle cell in your pectoral muscles because you like to do bench presses. In that muscle, there are thousands of mitochondria. And in those mitochondria, there’s a pathway to make ATP energy so you can lift those weights. The cytochrome c oxidase, for reasons I don’t understand, it actually takes and traps nitric oxide. And the nitric oxide doesn’t do what it’s supposed to do, which is keep your arteries youthful and prevent plaque. And it kind of clogs up the electron transport chain. So when you’re exposed to red light and infrared light, the nitric oxide gets bumped off and it goes and circulates and it does what it’s supposed to do. Suddenly this little fly in the ointment of making ATP is removed. So you actually get both benefits, which is crazy. I mean, it’s so crazy to think that red light and infrared light can do something that is – you know, I’m still blown away how advanced the science is. We’re talking thousands of research articles and basic science and human science. So there’s even reports – and this is science where I wouldn’t say it.

You know, how many people deal with Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, an autoimmune disease of the thyroid. There are small series that exposing your neck using a red light device like the lumiNIR converts your immune system. It’s called macrophage 1 or macrophage 2. But they stop attacking your own thyroid. And there are reports up substantial 30 or 40% of people no longer needing thyroid replacement after a while. Everybody needs to work with their healthcare team. Of course, their healthcare team won’t have ever heard of this. But if you do look online, Photobiomodulation Hashimoto’s, you can read about it. It’s real science.



[27:07] Ashley James: Oh, that is fascinating. Do you think it has something to do with the fact that it decreases inflammation?



[27:12] Dr. Joel Kah: It decreases inflammation by changing the activity of kind of white blood cell or kind of inflammatory. So I’ll call them back macrophage. Exactly.



[27:22] Ashley James: Because I know that in the 3-in-1 Sunlighten – not the handheld but the big Sunlighten Sauna that has the near, mid, and far infrared – that is incredibly anti-inflammatory to be in. That people notice decreases in pain and inflammation and joint pain. And then I’ve been told the lumiNIR – because I don’t have joint pain – but I’ve been told the lumiNIR has been really helpful for people with joint pain even when it’s like rheumatoid arthritis where there’s an autoimmune component. And you’ve seen the science to back this up.



[27:51] Dr. Joel Kahn: It probably is multiple pathways that lead people with fibromyalgia and more defined autoimmune conditions, like you mentioned, to respond to full spectrum infrared sauna. Because it probably is detoxification. Some will lose weight, which may help. And then finally, this nitric oxide, ATP energy, something like fibromyalgia, some people believe strongly is a mitochondrial energy deficit problem. So if you can safely non-invasively and frankly rather cost effectively deal with it, then you might as well just power up and get rid of the pain.



[28:34] Ashley James: Right. I love it. And you mentioned that saunas help with weight loss. I’ve used the sauna to help with detoxification because I was having problems with weight loss when it came to detoxification. My liver would get all really pissed off. I switched to a plant-based diet and everything’s working a lot better now that I’m doing that and doing the sauna. What can you share with us about, from the standpoint of heart health, cardiovascular health, and how saunas help with that, how does the sauna therapy, this heat therapy, help us with detoxification and weight loss?



[29:10] Dr. Joel Kahn: Yes. Well, it’s actually a very efficient way. It’s interesting. There’s some data that cold therapy is a very efficient way to accelerate your weight loss. So I have adopted this crazy habit I hate that after workout, I jump in the shower. And at least part of it, I douse myself and cold water. It does wake you up like no other. I hate everything about it. Because there’s nothing more comforting than a hot shower but a cold shower.

And on the flip side, the efficiency of burning calories in an infrared sauna is as high as many ellipticals and treadmills. And it might be roughly 500, 600, 700 calories an hour. So you know, it doesn’t replace – number one, if you’re a good athlete and you can really get good workouts, please do it. There’s all kinds of cardiovascular benefits. Some people have reasons that they can’t really get that high level workout. And many people do both. They’ll get the – you know, they CrossFit or the HIIT or yoga or whatever it is and then they’ll add in some saunas on top of it. So it can be very helpful with the calories in, calories out.

The calorie out part of weight loss, I had, unfortunately, in a medical conference, the misfortune of breaking a foot on an escalator two months ago. So I’ve had to give up – it’s recovering very well. But I’ve had to give up the treadmill, elliptical, Concept 2 rower, and all the things I like to do yoga. So I’m spending more time in an infrared sauna and been able to maintain my weight. I mean, a lot of upper body work and such. I shifted. But just a personal example, you know, add that in. And it may be too.

There’s this theory – this gets a little whoo – we really are exposed to a lot of garbage, pesticides, herbicides, these endocrine disrupting chemicals. And a lot of them do get – they’re fat soluble chemicals, particularly PCBs and DDT. And these things are unfortunately highly concentrated in fish. So fish eaters are much more exposed to these things. But you may need to get rid and reduce your burden on some of these chemicals to really lose weight. Because there’s like this battle, if I keep my fat, I dilute these chemicals and they’re less toxic to my physiology. And if I lose weight, and they’re all released in the bloodstream, I may feel bad. Kind of like the Keto flu or the kind of ill feeling that people get the first couple days of some kind of detox. So sweating them out as a real efficient way in a sauna to reduce your burden and accelerate weight loss. Now, everything I just said is a little blurry in terms of, “Do we absolutely know?” But that is a strong theory that people feel reflects life in 2019 and 2020.



[31:57] Ashley James: And it’s been my experience too. I kept hitting a wall. Every time I lose a few pounds, I get really over toxic and my liver would inflame. I went for ultrasounds and blood work and it was sure enough, my liver was really pissed. And my Naturopath didn’t know what was going on. He was trying to throw some supplements at me to support the liver. But I had to basically stop weight loss and then wait for it to calm down then start again. I was just sick of it. And so finally my niche process was like, “You really should get a sauna.” And that’s why I dived into studying all the different types of saunas. And I came across Sunlighten Sauna and discovered that that was my favorite out of all the other companies. Really low EMF, nontoxic. And then when I started using it, it was like a light bulb went off inside me. It was the total difference. I feel happier when I use it. I get better sleep. I don’t have my inflamed liver anymore. The weight loss has been consistent. So I’ve become this raving fan about Sunlighten. But again, I didn’t understand the deep science behind it. And so I love that you’re saying that the receptors in our body, the cells have receptors for light. And I’ve heard from other people that light is like a nutrient. And we are starving our body because of modern day society. We’re actually starving from the full spectrum that we need. So it’s like we’re nutrient deficient and the nutrient is light.



[33:23] Dr. Joel Kahn: So that that circles back to something I said a while about how similar we are to plants, which is a novel idea. But of course plants can take light and use them to stimulate the production of energy. It powers them. They have chlorophyll. There is a report in 2014 and I wrote a little blog about it back then. It was so interesting, it made some headlines. It wasn’t a human study but it was a mammal study. And we do not think that we can be out in the sun and create energy out of that process. We’re not plants. But that did occur in mammalian cells. And there may be a whole spectrum of we know light helps you make vitamin D, which is an important health supporting. Some people say hormone and vitamin. There is some data you can make more nitric oxide by being in the sun. And people that live in lower portions in the United States have lower blood pressure than people who live in northern portions. And it all correlates how many hours a day there’s sunshine. But whether we actually can energize and feel better, of course, intuition says, take a vacation in the sun. And it feels great. And it may be partly that we have still pathways that aren’t completely understood in these cytochrome C oxidase pathways may indeed be part of it. So it’s very cool.

And you know, as I say one of the easiest health blaze is to get more light or get more red light with dedicated products. These used to be extremely expensive. You’d have to spend $10,000 to 30,000 to go to a health spa or a dermatology office. But it’s much different now for way, way under $1,000. You got a great system.



[35:05] Ashley James: Yeah. I really like the lumiNIR and all that you can do with it with all the different attachments. Like you said, you can do the anti-aging. There’s an attachment specifically for helping skin with acne and healing the skin. And I really geek out on helping people with pain and decreasing pain and supporting healthy tissue. So there’s so many different benefits to making sure we’re exposed to light either getting out in the sun or getting in a Sunlighten Sauna. But being able to expose yourself to the different and full – as much as you can full spectrum of light. Now, I know we’re under a time constraint and I definitely want to make sure I get to the listeners questions because I posted on the Learn True Health Facebook Group some questions.



[35:50] Dr. Joel Kahn: Let me just – before we leave the sauna, let me just shout out three – again, I told everybody I already like science. So I’m going to give three very nonscientific tips here.



[36:01] Ashley James: Okay. Great.



[36:01] Dr. Joel Kahn: Well, the first one is okay. I do my meditation. Which isn’t absolutely regular but I do it in the infrared sauna. I call it saunatation. I’m already isolated. I’m already cleansing physiologically my body, why not cleanse some of the stress. So I encourage people that’s just a perfect place to do that. That’s number one. Number two, I actually do take a big handful of organic chlorella about half-an-hour before getting in the sauna. Because I want to be a plant. And I don’t know for sure if that works. But my blood level of chlorophyll is extremely high from taking 25 or 30 little tablets. Like anybody can buy of high quality chlorella. And it just feels good. And the third one, and please don’t do this if you’re not really healthy and know your status. There’s sort of this strategy, go do a HIIT workout for 10 or 15 minutes after you’ve taken a little handful of niacin, a B vitamin that makes you sweat and turn red. And you might feel very poorly on it so be careful. But it’s over the counter. You know, so take your knives and do your workout and pop in a sauna. You want to have a detoxifying sweat, you will have a detoxifying sweat.



[37:17] Ashley James: Very interesting. So you’re inducing the niacin flush. Is that like opening up capillaries around the surface of the skin?



[37:27] Dr. Joel Kahn: That’s exactly what you’re feeling on the surface of the skin. Clearly, if you’re not healthy, if you’ve had a bad reaction to niacin – I mean, it’s not a medical therapy and niacin is an over the counter vitamin. So I don’t think I’ve completely violated my Hippocratic oath. And I’ve done it a thousand times and so far still alive and kicking. But it’s an interesting little play.



[37:51] Ashley James: Now, I’m going to have to try that. I’ve definitely have some niacin here on the shelf. I’m going to have to try that for sure. I usually get the no-flush niacin. But to want to do it on purpose to open up all the blood flow to the surface to increase the sweating and detoxification, that sounds like a really fun experiment.

I’m kind of like — you know, you hear about this term biohacker. I love experimenting on myself in a safe way. You know, try it out. And I feel like my listeners do the same. They love trying different things, especially when they learn from great guests like you and seeing how it works for them. I have two more things to add to your routine – or one more thing for you to add to the routine is trying a magnesium soak while you’re in the sauna. And I’ll make sure I send you some information on it. But it’s transdermal. It’s a liquid. And you just put a few cups of water with a foot basin while you’re in the sauna, and you absorb a ton of magnesium. And so a lot of my listeners, including myself, love doing that in the sauna as well. And that also opens up the blood flow. And then my favorite – and I definitely encourage you to try it out – my favorite chlorella brand – I’ve tried a bunch of them – and I found that ENERGYbits, they make one called –



[39:06] Dr. Joel Kahn: That’s what I just swallowed.



[39:07] Ashley James: Yes. RECOVERYbits are my favorite because it tastes amazing. All the other ones kind of tastes fishy to me or stale. And ENERGYbits has been consistent with their quality and their testing. I’ve had Catharine Arnston, the creator of ENERGYbits on the show many times. And so yeah, we’re on the same page. I’m so excited to introduce you the magnesium soak. I’ll make sure I send you some information because I know that you’ll really enjoy adding that to your sauna routine and seeing how you how you feel about it.

So let me get to the listener questions because I know that we’re under time constraint and I want to respect your time. Daniela, first of all, says that your – she’s the one that said your podcast is absolutely amazing. So I want to shout out to Daniela. She was really looking forward to hearing our interview.

Naomi has a really interesting one. Her dad had a valve replacement surgery recently because of a narrow valve. And the doctor said it was congenital. But none of his symptoms started until he was 70. And they’re like, “Well, you know you were born with it.” But none of his symptoms started until his 70 and now they’re seeing narrowing of the arteries. Of course, that can be – as you and I know – corrected with wonderful whole food plant-based diet with no oil. What do you say to that when people say – when doctor said, “Well, that’s just congenital. You were born with it.” But the disease never occurred until they were much later in life.



[40:28] Dr. Joel Kahn: Go back to Daniela. Thank you, Daniela, for listening to Heart Doc VIP. Okay. I just wanted to say thank you to her because that was kind of you.

But to go to this question. There is a – the number one most common birth condition, congenital heart condition, is actually what her father had. The last valve of the heart when the heart pumps hard to get all the blood out to the body, it goes through a valve called the aortic valve. That looks like a Mercedes Benz or a peace sign, three little parts. They open, they shot. One person people are born where there’s two pieces, not three. It’s called a bicuspid aortic valve. It looks like your rear end. It has two pieces, not three. But we don’t call it a tush valve. It’s a bicuspid valve. Now, you can now call it a tush valve. And because it’s abnormal, 100,000 heartbeats a day. By the time you’re 40 or 45 or 50 or 55, there’s some scarring, some calcification. And the valve may no longer open enough so you start to get shorter breath, tighten the chest, dizzy. And at that point, you may need something done about it.

There’s nothing you can do about being born with it. It’s common. You might ask a doctor. There is some family history. So your listener might ask her doctor, “Are you sure there’s no murmur there when you listen to my heart with the stethoscope?” But there’s really no absolute necessity to make the diagnosis early, early. But they’re just finish it up. Occasionally with that valve – right above the heart is called your aorta. The aorta may be a little enlarged. That’s a little more important of a finding earlier in life. You shouldn’t probably be snapping or catching 300 pound lifts in CrossFit if you knew your aorta was enlarged. So it might be worth pursuing it with what we call an ultrasound of the heart or echocardiogram, if there really was any question your doctor thought they heard something or there really is a strong family history.

I’ll give you one last little tip because your listeners deserve the best of the best. There is a class of antibiotics – I’m totally shifting gears but I’m coming back to your listeners question. They are called fluoroquinolones. But you might know him by Cipro, ciprofloxacin, Levaquin, levofloxacin. These are actually the most commonly prescribed oral and IV antibiotics in the United States. It is now apparent after 30 years of using them, that they weaken our collagen. They cause rupture [inaudible 00:42:57]. Your Achilles can get inflamed or rupture after a seven to ten day course. But now in the last three or four years, your aorta, the most important blood vessel in the body, can get weakened and damaged after just a week or ten days on these antibiotics. And very recently, even heart valves, all of these structures are made of collagen. These antibiotics have – it took years to identify. It’s not common. But when you talk about tens of millions of prescriptions, if it’s only 1% or 1.5% of people, it’s still a lot of people. Which is why somebody like this father – I mean, anybody within a large aorta should now know that there’s FDA warnings about maybe not using this class of antibiotics that are used for prostate and urinary and bronchitis in the hospital and in the office.

I’ll say as I was just on the doctor show being interviewed on this topic, because it is really important and hot. And Drew Ordon, the plastic surgeon with the white hair and wonderful guy said, “I’m Levaquin right now for my prostate and this is scaring me.” And it is being recommended that you ask your doctor maybe shift antibiotics to another one.

So circling back to your question, it’s 1% of people born with an abnormal valve. It might also cause their aorta to be enlarged. If you knew your aorta was enlarged, you do not want to take these classes of antibiotics. And even if your aorta isn’t enlarged, for the sake of your Achilles tendon and other structures, you still might want to ask, ” Can I have a penicillin or sulfa?” Older antibiotic like Macrobid. These drugs have been out for decades. It’s interesting. It’s not the only drug. We’ve learned new things about old drugs that are frankly changing practice and fairly scary. Next question. Next question.



[44:50] Ashley James: Thank you so much for warning us. Kelly asks, “Are there any recommendations he has for children who are born with heart conditions such as ASD, PFO, etc.?



[44:59] Dr. Joel Kahn: These are interesting questions because, again, birth defects are rarely the common questions that are asked. I’m certainly welcome to have them. I mean, so you can -the second most common birth defect after the valve is a little hole in the heart called a PFO, Patent Foramen Ovale. Usually very innocent. And then there’s a larger hole called ASD, Atrial Septal Defect. And then there are more complex where it might be apparent before birth or at birth that this is a child that has serious problems, blue babies and developmental problems.

But you know, just like that listener’s Father, it took decades. There are people that have had this hole in their heart for it 20, 30, 40 years. And then they begin to get shorter breath or then they begin to get fatigue. So there isn’t a diet, there isn’t a lifestyle, there isn’t a sauna treatment for everything in life. You just need, at that point, good medical care. And sometimes ultimately, a procedure that more and more is not surgery. More and more, it’s some kind of procedure where they don’t have to crack your chest open.

But people should be much more concerned about their arteries getting clogged and the risk of heart attack and stroke. Because the frequency of that from age 35, 40, 45, and up is a thousand times more of a concern than finding out unexpectedly at age 70. You’ve got a valve or a hole in your heart issue. They’re all important.



[46:31] Ashley James: Right. That we can prevent heart disease with whole food plant-based diet with no processed foods would be much better for most of the population. And then there’s a small percentage that has a birth defect but could still – even with a birth defect, couldn’t we still optimize our heart health with a really good heart health diet?



[46:50] Dr. Joel Kahn: Yeah. Always. And there’s an insane number of reasons to as early as you can in life learn the clues. Don’t smoke, stay thin, get fitness, get sleep, manage stress, eat more fruits and vegetables, whole grains, and legumes. And anybody around you does. Be the champion of whole real foods from plant sources. Don’t smoke. If I said it twice, it deserves to be said twice.



[47:17] Ashley James: Don’t vape. 



[47:17] Dr. Joel Kahn: If nothing happens during your life, you’ve just probably added a dozen plus years of good health and reduce risk of diabetes, cancer, brain disease and heart disease. If something comes up in your life, you’re showing up in the best shape possible. So yes, we buy life insurance, we wear seatbelts, we wear bicycle helmets, we’re into the mode of taking certain precautions even though they’re relatively unlikely. Whereas, heart disease is incredibly likely and we neither look for it nor do we really work very hard to prevent it.



[47:50] Ashley James: My dad died of heart disease. My mom died of cancer. And that’s one of the biggest reasons why I do this show. I can’t save my parents. I don’t have a time machine. But I can help my listeners save theirs and save themselves. And we can. We can prevent and reverse disease and add years to your life with all the things you’ve talked about.

You know, we’re on a roll. Heidi says, “I have a question as well. My husband has a rare genetic heart condition called ARVC. His arteries are perfectly healthy but it’s electrical part of the heart that’s not. Do you have any advice for anyone with this condition?”



[48:26] Dr. Joel Kahn: Yeah. Again, an important but very unusual birth abnormality, the right side of your heart, it just doesn’t form normally. And it makes people prone to serious fast heartbeats that could cause you to blackout or worse. And you work with certain cardiologists called electrical cardiologists and sometimes you need that fancy pacemaker called a defibrillator. And they can be life saving for certain people.

And the same comment, show up to that challenge in life. You know, why is that gentleman’s arteries clean? And that’s a very complex question of genetics and lifestyle and fitness and all. But if you start eating plant-based at age 18, as I had the good fortune by luck, you probably are going to show up for that procedure with your arteries clean. And I know at age 60 mine are squeaky clean. There’s ways to get a quick CAT scan and confirm that and there.

So it’s always best. The best protection is to stay out of the hospital on as few medicines as you can with as few doctor procedures as you can. The number three cause of death in the United States is medical procedures and medications that go wrong. Number three causes of death are heart disease and cancer. So the best plan is not need to be there. And I run from hospitals even though I am part of them and I will say I’m on staff with them. But in terms of my own health, I do not trust what goes on in hospitals.



[49:56] Ashley James: Thank you. I love this. We have to walk that fine line of understanding when we want to go to allopathic medicine and when we don’t. This show obviously celebrates all the times we don’t want to go to allopathic medicine but allopathic medicine has its place. And if my heart was beating to the point where it’s blocking out, I’d really want to see a good electrical cardiologist. Is that what it’s called? I definitely want to go see a really good one.

But for prevention and for optimizing our health, then we can do it through diet. I interviewed Dr. Esselstyn and he has seen people with even four blockages in the heart, reverse it within months of going on a whole food plant-based diet, as you I’m sure have seen and know. So it’s just amazing what the body can do when we give it the nutrition it needs.

Teresa asks – she says, “Many of the autoimmune neuro disease experts insist on good fats in the diet. Added fats like ghee, tallow, lard and coconut oils, mostly for cooking and to drizzle over vegetables for absorption. I personally have trouble breaking down fats and proteins and I’ve had to take digestive enzymes with every meal. Is it really necessary to add all that extra fat for MS, ALS, and even Hashimoto’s? I followed Dr. John McDougall for years and felt great. But that was before autoimmunity. So she then developed an autoimmune condition.” And she says, “Also, the experts talk about organ meats for autoimmunity. What could replace a nutrient density in a plant-based diet?” So she doesn’t want to have to eat organ meats and all this processed fat but she wants to heal her body. Do you have any advice for her?



[51:37] Dr. Joel Kahn: Yeah. And I think it gets to just a fundamental question. Where do you get your advice? Do they have any conflicts in the advice they’re giving? And are they really trained to give advice? Because every trainer or every dietitian – at least a dietitian has some formal training if they’re an RD, every health coach can get a blog and YouTube and give advice. Go find me data that you need to eat organ meats to heal neurologic or autoimmune disease. And let’s talk about randomized studies that are out there.

And you know, not everything in the world that’s great has to be plant-based. So there’s so many reasons to talk about a whole food plant-base for the environment, for animal rights, and animal cruelty and suffering. And for the gigantic database that it is the best plan to preserve and protect your health in general and for both brain and autoimmune diseases.

I spent the weekend with Dr. Terry Wahls of HLS. And many people will know she’s a medical doctor with a breakout book called The Wahls Protocol a couple years ago. She’s redoing it right now. And she had disabling multiple sclerosis. She was an internist in the University of Iowa at the VA. And kind of created her own plan of hyper nourishment with ten servings a day of organic leafy greens and smoothies and salads and mushrooms and onions and garlic. And a few servings of animal foods during the week. Far less than the typical Paleo diet. Lots of omega-3 rich foods. And I was asking her by and she recovered her own health. She’s helped so many people recover. I mean, I’m not going to argue with her. She’s walking and riding her bike and she was in a wheelchair. I’m going to tell her diet is other than optimal. It worked out optimally for her and a lot of other people.

There is a similar plan that is all plant-based that’s taught by a physician in Houston, Brooke Goldner, G-O-L-D-N-E-R and her book called Goodbye Lupus or Goodbye Autoimmune Disease, her new book. So you can do it super clean whole food plant-based, super clean almost plant-based as Dr. Wahls teaches. But it’s not all that gook you talked about. And what I love about, particularly Dr. Wahls right now, she took her own personal health crisis and recovery. Her broad experience teaching other people within the VA and other medical systems in the University of Iowa. And now she’s actually doing prospective randomized published studies. You can’t jack with somebody who’s done that kind of science.

And I’ll say no disrespect, but it kind of is disrespect. Show me Dr. David Perlmutter’s prospective peer reviewed studies or Dr. Mark Hyman or Dr. Bill Davis. I mean, these are the giants of some of this weird stuff. I mean, bone marrow and bone broth. I know it’s trendy. But let’s talk about where we follow the typical scientific path of you got a hypothesis, you arrange a study, you do it, you publish it. Dr. Wahls sure [inaudible 00:54:32] has.

So my brain favorites are two neurologists by the name of Sherzai, S-H-E-R-Z-A-I. Which is Dean and Ayesha Sherzai, academic neurologists in Long Beach and Loma Linda with a book called The Alzheimer’s Solution. And I would follow their program for brain and neurological health in that book.



[54:56] Ashley James: Thank you so much. That was great. I love the books that you let us know about because those are going to be great guests for the show. I’m definitely going to ask them all to be on the show. And those will be great resources for the listeners as well. It has been such a pleasure having you on the show. I know time just flies. And I know you’ve got to go. Before you do, is there any advice that you’d like to leave listeners with or homework that you’d like to leave the listeners with?



[55:25] Dr. Joel Kahn: That’s an interesting question, homework, because that’s exactly the expression I use with my patients. So, “Here’s your homework. And I can’t do this all for you. And I can guide you to people.” I believe my opinion are credible and we should spend time. I mean, everybody should watch Forks Over Knives on Netflix. Or if there’s anybody left that has a DVD player. It’s still available. I give my patients the option of taking a DVD home or watch it on Netflix.

If you want to upgrade that, you might watch What The Health from 2017. And very soon you’ll be able to watch Game Changers. A new movie that was in the theaters that will be released on iTunes very soon. I mean, I’ve seen all those movies. You know, there are a lot of health movies that I don’t think represent fairly. But surely Forks Over Knives, which is Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn and Dr. Caldwell, I would certainly say, are fair.

Other homework, let’s see. You know, get familiar with It can be a slippery slope. But that’s the national library of medicine and 30 million scientific articles. You can’t get the full article on everyone but you can and a lot. And like, if you don’t believe me on red light therapy or photobiomodulation and Hashimoto’s, that’s where you go. You go there. And you know, it’s a little tough sometimes to read the scientific articles but that’s a good habit. I mean, you could, I will say, also, put it bone broth and health. That’s where you want to look. You’ll find nothing. Actually, you’ll find one article that says it’s dangerous and toxic in terms of lead levels in bone broth causing bones that your cooking to release some of the stored lead that is in them. But you know, these kind of habits is something if you really want to get as credible as you can. You might know learn simple skills to do.



[57:24] Ashley James: Oh, I love it. Yes, PubMed. Let’s advocate for ourselves by looking into the science. Absolutely. I went to the movie theaters and saw the Game Changers in the movies. And I went with actually one of our listeners who’s a friend of mine, Naomi. A big shout out to her. And the whole time we kept looking at each other going, “We have to get this person to watch this. Oh my gosh. We got to get our parents to watch this.” We can’t believe it. Like, I am so excited that October 1st when it comes out on iTunes, I’m going to buy the digital copy and get as many of my friends and family to watch it. And I really love that it just shows – it blows this idea that that [inaudible 00:58:01] totally out of the ballpark. And it shows that if you want to have really great sexual health and great muscle and great strength and endurance and all that, men and women get it from a whole food plant-based diet. That’s such a cool – and it is really a game changer. Dr. Joel Kahn, it has been such a pleasure having you on the show today. You are welcome back anytime you want to come share with our listeners. It was a true pleasure to have you today.



[58:30] Dr. Joel Kahn: Well, it is mutual fan club, mutual Seattle fan club. And yeah, I look forward doing that. I’d be happy to help you contact any of those other people if you want to get them on because I think your listenership would love them.



[58:43] Ashley James: Awesome. That sounds great. Thank you.




Hello true health seeker.

Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition? And how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity? Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business? Support people in their success? Do you love helping people?

You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program. And it really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over 100 dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition. But from a standpoint of how we can help people to shift their life and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health. I definitely recommend you check them out. You can Google Institute for Integrative Nutrition or IIN and give them a call. Or you can go to and you can receive a free module of their training to check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in. Be sure to mention my name, Ashley James and the Learn True Health podcast. Because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program. And I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information.

We need more health coaches. In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctors offices, you can work in hospitals. ,You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help your local schools shift their programs to help children be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success and their health goals.

There’s so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach. So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. Mention my name. Get the best deal. Give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month. So you’re going to want to call them now and check it out. And if you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.


Get Connected With Dr. Joel Kahn!





Books by Dr. Joel Kahn

The Plant Based Solution

The Whole Heart Solution

The No B.S. Diet