Learn True Health with Ashley James

On Learn True Health, Ashley James interviews today's most successful natural healers. Learn True Health was created for YOU, the health enthusiast. If you are passionate about organic living or struggling with health issues and are looking to gain your health naturally, our holistic podcast is what you have been looking for! Ashley James interviews Naturopathic Doctors and expert holistic health care practitioners to bring you key holistic health information, results based advice and new natural steps you can take to achieve true health, starting NOW! If you are sick and tired of being sick and tired, if you are fed up with prescription drug side effects, if you want to live in optimal health but you don't know where to start, this podcast is for you! If you are looking for ACTIONABLE advice from holistic doctors to get you on your path to healing, you will enjoy the wisdom each episode brings. Each practitioner will leave you with a challenge, something that you can do now, and each day, to measurably improve your health, energy, and vitality. Learn about new healing diet strategies, how to boost your immune system, balance your hormones, increase your energy, what supplements to take and why and how to experience your health and stamina in a new way. Ashley James from Learn True Health interviews doctors like Dr. Joel Wallach, Dr. Andrew Weil, Dr. Deepak Chopra, Dr. Oz, Dr. Joseph Mercola and Dr. Molly Niedermeyer on Naturopathic Medicine, Homeopathy, Supplements, Meditation, Holistic Health and Alternative Health Strategies for Gaining Optimal Health.
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Now displaying: 2023
Dec 14, 2023

Check out the EMF Protection Grounding Bags here at
And be sure to get your listener discount by using coupon code LTH


515: Tapping into Earth’s Frequency: Ancient Wisdom Meets EMF Stress Relief


Unlock the secrets of electromagnetic fields and their impact on our health as Ashley James, your devoted guide, navigate the terrain of modern technology with Justin Frandson, a seasoned athletic performance coach. This episode peels back the curtain on the unseen effects of gadgets we trust for well-being, revealing how they may inadvertently disrupt our body's functions. We don't just stop at problems; Justin brings forth a groundbreaking solution, offering a natural escape from the silent storm of oxidative stress through grounding bags that encapsulate the Earth's healing frequency.



  • Natural Solution for EMF Protection
  • Impact of Grounding Bags on Health
  • Benefits of Earthing and Grounding Mats
  • Discussion on EMF Exposure and Solutions
  • Effects of EMF on Human Health
  • EMF Sensitivity and Heavy Metal Detox
  • Grounding Bags and Faraday Bags
  • Transforming Health Through Non-Toxic Living
  • The Impact of Electric Cars
  • Dangers of Electromagnetic Radiation


Hello True Health Seeker and welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health podcast. Today we have with us an amazing guest. He's been an athletic coach to both professional and non-professional athletes for over 25 years and early on, as he was helping athletes to become the healthiest and best versions of themselves, he noticed that EMF exposure affected them, and a lot of athletes will wear these smartwatches and devices to monitor their heart rate and monitor their vitals and everything that they can see to squeeze out more efficiency in themselves as the athletic machine that they're creating themselves to be, in themselves as the athletic machine that they're creating themselves to be. And he noticed that all this EMF exposure to cell phones and electric vehicles and all the devices they were wearing was harming them, was actually suppressing their body's functions. We talk about some of these suppressions like that our mitochondria, the part of our cell that makes cellular energy, is affected by exposure to EMF. So my guest today discovered a natural solution that really rocks. I got to tell you I've had a lot of fun with the puns on this one. This is a technology that's 100% natural. I call it a technology because we're using it and applying it in a certain way. That would be considered a technology, in that we're using something from nature, applying it to help solve a problem, and this problem is exposure to EMF and also helping us to ground. 

I have several episodes with experts and doctors talking about the excess electrons that build up in our body when we don't spend time touching the earth. A lot of us do not touch the earth. Can you remember the last time you had your feet or your hands right on soil? We don't. We wear insulated shoes and drive around in insulated cars and live in insulated homes, and we very rarely touch the earth. So we build up these excess electrons in our body that are doing oxidative stress and free radical damage to us, increasing inflammation throughout the body. And using this all-natural solution today that we're discussing, you'll be able to protect yourself and your family from electromagnetic radiation and help them to release these excess electrons safely, healthfully. 

I love that it's 100% natural and it's super easy. You don't need electricity, you don't need to plug it into something and it protects you. It protects you from the EMF from cell phones, from computers, from Wi-Fi, and, at the same time, is helping us do earthing or grounding. If you want to check it out and get it for yourself. You can go to That's I got us a discount so you can use coupon code LTH. I love it when my guests do that for us. 

A few episodes ago, I had announced that I was writing a book and I am still writing the book. It's taking a bit longer than expected, unfortunately. I was hoping it would be published for Christmas, but my ultimate goal was that it would be published before January so that everyone could use it for their New Year's resolutions. This has been such an exciting journey. I've loved, loved writing this book because it's all the advice that I help my clients with, all the foundations of health, done in a really fun way that helps you to build health habits for the rest of your life. So keep an eye out, keep an ear out, listening for updates on that. It's going to be available very soon. I'm really, really looking forward to sharing it with you guys. Awesome, make sure you join the Learn True Health Facebook Group for updates. You can also go to and join the email list. I send out just a few emails a month. I promise not to spam you. I'll definitely be sending an email about my book, so be sure to check that out as well. Thank you so much for being a listener and sharing this podcast with those you care about. If you have an athlete in your life, if you have someone in your life who is worried about EMF exposure, or someone who's in pain or has problems sleeping, this helps with so many of these issues. I'm really looking forward to hearing from you guys how you experience this product and how it helps you in your life. Have yourself a fantastic rest of your day and enjoy today's interview. 

Ashley James (0:04:42.430)

Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I'm your host, Ashley James. This is episode 515. I am so excited for today's guest. We have a really interesting interview ahead of us. I just have a feeling we're going to have a lot of fun today. 

Justin Frandson, who is an athleticism performance coach and author and a waterman. He's introduced me to something that I did not think it was going to go this way, so just absolutely did not. When I first was introduced to Justin a few weeks ago by a mutual friend, a colleague that I highly respect, I was incredibly skeptical. I have to admit, when I read the email and looked into you, and I think it actually took me a week to reply because I sat with it and it's so out there, right. But then you know, I'm the biggest open-minded skeptic. So the skeptic took over and this just sounds crazy. And then the open-mindedness started melting in, but what if it's true? What if it is true? Okay, fine, it doesn't hurt to have a conversation. So I told you in the email, I'm a big open-minded skeptic. And I got to tell you like the little alarm bells are going off in my head, like this sounds whack, job, right. But you said there's a lot of science and studies behind it. And also I really trust the person that introduced us and they wouldn't have introduced me to something that was a scam, right, or something that was crazy. But coming into this whole conversation, I'm like how am I going to introduce this to my listeners? Like, hey, I want you to go buy this bag of rocks. And this isn't woo-woo, this isn't like crystal licking, this is not. I mean, and I love my new age brothers and sisters, but this isn't that. This is not I'm not asking you to you know be new age. This is grounded in a ton of science and studies. So, anyway, you sent me this bag of rocks. It's, it is actually. There's a purpose behind it. It's to help with EMF. 

And we opened the box and we grabbed the bag and I felt like the closest thing I could describe is I felt like I was in the middle of a thunderstorm, like the electricity in the air changed and I got lightheaded, but not in a bad way, like I wouldn't have fallen over anything. I just noticed like, wow, I'm feeling something. I'm feeling something incredible. Like if you had hooked me up to a device and turned on like a tens unit, but over my whole body, I would have believed you. But all I was doing was holding this bag of rocks. I'm like, this is wild, I'm feeling this. 

And I sat down, I drank some water and that that almost like just before lightheaded feeling went away. But it left the air charged and I felt more energized. And what I noticed almost immediately is I felt highly motivated and I actually ran back upstairs, got in the office and started working and I was just like, oh, I'm so motivated, I feel so good and I thought that's really interesting because I didn't do much with the bag other than like hold it for a minute and like talk about it with my husband, and I'll get to what I did wrong next. But I want to tell you the rest of the story. But I haven't even let you say hi. So, by the way, welcome to the show, Justin. 

Justin Frandson (0:08:26.550)

Oh Ashley, thanks for having me on. Keep going, I love the intro.

Ashley James (0:08:31.332)

Okay. Okay. So we take the bag and we've been feeling the effects of it. The whole time I'm going, I've got to tell my listeners, but how am I going to tell them? You got to try this bag of rocks. So we we put it by. We had it in our office all day, where we have all our electronics, right. We have multiple computers, 3d printer, the sauna and, the Wi-Fi, everything. We actually try to hardwire everything, but we do have Wi-Fi for some things and it just felt like it changed the energy of the office, which is really neat. 

Then we slept with it, not like hugging or anything. We put it beside our bed and we can't put it under our bed because we're on this antique oak thing that has drawers, and so we just put it up past the headboard, really close to our heads, but near us, and my husband, who has been recently snoring more than usual and waking me up, and then I tell him to roll over, and what I thought was so interesting is he went into a deep sleep and he didn't snore all night long and I woke up the next day going wait a second, I wasn't woken up all night with snoring, like that's cool. And my husband woke up, went whoa, I slept so deep last night, like that's neat. And I was talking about how well we've got to go lend this bag to so-and-so who has insomnia, and he's like I don't want to be without the bag. I want to sleep with it again tomorrow night and again tonight. So we've slept with it for a few nights. Every night has been deeper. My husband's snoring no longer wakes me up. I thought that was really interesting. 

If only for like the snoring, I would have bought this bag of rocks. If you told me I put a bag of rocks by your husband and he stopped snoring, I would have been, okay, I'm sold, but how neat is that deeper sleep. And I've got the bag right here and I'm holding it and I just get this like charge, like this feeling like it's something shifted. And so I want to dive into the amazing results, the clinicals or studies or whatever you've got. You told me you've got studies. You told me you got science. I want to hear it, but I did do something wrong, so here's my confession. 

When I was really excited opening my package, there was a smaller bag. It's like this little tiny bag that fits in your pocket, I guess, maybe just to carry around for EMF protection. And I didn't read any of the instructions. I just thought you're supposed to hold the rocks in your hands. So I opened the bag and then I proceeded to open the second bag that was the EMF bag or the Faraday bag, and then I opened the plastic bag inside and I held the rocks, and that might have been why I felt a little dizzy at first. And then my husband's reading over the instructions and it's like he said it says to not open the bag. I'm like oh. 

So my husband's like he really wants you to explain why not open the bag, and that's something you can tell us at some point. But I hope everyone is wondering. What I'm wondering is like what's up with this bag of rocks? How did you even get involved in this? Because again, I was very skeptical, like this guy makes a living selling people rocks right, and I mean, it's rocks you can't even look at cause they're in a bag, but they have an amazing impact on your health. So, yes, please tell us more about this bag of rocks. 

Justin Frandson (0:12:09.628)

Well, Ashley, you're so spot on and as skeptical as you were, I was the same way when I found out about how the rocks are deployed, the way they're deployed and how they work that way. And I was just going, Hey, this doesn't make sense. This doesn't make sense. But then all of a sudden I started using them, bring them into our home. The biggest thing that we saw at our home.

My wife was going through early menopause and she had night sweats and would wake up every night for three months and her menstrual cycle stopped for three months straight. And then once we loaded the house up with some grounding bags, everything normalized in her cycle return. And that's when I knew we had something really, really special, like more so than, oh, me just saying, oh, I slept great, which is huge in its own right.

Ashley James (0:12:59.786)

That's so cool. So grounding bags is probably easier to better portray it. Then just like go buy this magic box bag of rocks. It's a special kind of rock. It's not just any kind of rock when I opened that bag, which I shouldn't have, but when I opened the bag and looked at them, I'm like, I've never seen this mineral before. I don't recognize it. It's very interesting. So, tell us more about what it is. How does it work?

Justin Frandson (0:13:29.274)

So the same skepticism Ashley that you had I actually had to. And when I found out about these was from a doctor working with his patients and treating EMF electromagnetic field sensitivities, from non-native EMFs with these crystals, and I was working with another product that had crystals and copper in it, and I developed a reputation in Newport Beach, not only with working with athletes, but also going into homes and seeing the health of someone's home, and that was just huge because you got to check the environment and see how toxic it is and that because it directly affects our health. And so he had these crystals. 

We ended up bringing them into our home. My wife at the time was going through some early menopause and so her menstrual cycle stopped and she had night sweats and wasn't sleeping for literally three months straight and the cycle stopped for three months, and so we brought the crystals into our world and into our home and everything normalized. Her cycle returned after three months, and that's when I knew we had something really, really special.

And so I asked the doc. I said, hey, can I bring these to market? Are you going to bring it to market? He says, go for it. He was about to retire and he didn't want to get shut down anyways because this is a hot topic. And so we ended up bringing the crystals to market and they are really special. It's just not just any rock that you can go grab outside and bring into your home. 

Most of those have the human resonance. They have the healing pulse of the earth in it because it's earth's resonance outside. But ours have moisture properties with the magnetic, and the combination between the two of those, Ashley, is unbelievable for EMF protection. And you have to keep them sealed because they'll end up drying out over a period of time. And that's why no one's ever seen them or used them for EMF protection. It's because when they would mine them they would turn to dust over a period of time. So they do have a resonance. We call it the Schumann Resonance. It's that healing pulse of the earth, the magnetic properties with the moisture, is what makes them so exponentially powerful for electromagnetic radiation protection. 

Ashley James (0:16:13.331)

Got it. So that's the reason why you shouldn't open the bag. Cause it's the moisture that's escaping. So I'm going to reseal them and then it'll all be good. I'm kind of glad I opened it cause I got to see what they looked like. And I'm like, I've never seen these, these are a type of rock I've never seen before. So that was pretty interesting cause it wasn't like you're just going out in the garden and ha ha, I'm going to sell them a bag of rocks. No, it feels like I'm hooked up to a machine, like some kind of frequency device when I'm holding these and you have a whole system of how to use them or you tap them. Can you explain what happens when we tap the bag?

Justin Frandson (0:16:56.585)

Definitely. So we're taking the Earth's resonance, which is a natural field. It's a natural electromagnetic field. And we're bringing it into our environment to create a coherence between us and all the non-native wave forms in our environment. So there's definitely protocols that we recommend we go through. And the way we use them is you put one on your bed, you'll sleep up to three to 60% deeper. And so let me lean into the studies here because those are big numbers. I mean, 3% accumulated over a period of time is huge. 

Dr. Rodney White, his deep sleep was really disrupted. He was at 45 minutes consistently for forever. Like he's never been able to find an EMF protection product that can get it above that and he brought the grounding bags into his bed and you put it on or under your bed, just as long as it's touching the bed, you're good to go. He did a sleep test for three months straight. He couldn't believe it. He just kept testing it and the grounding bags allowed him to go from 45 minutes to a hundred minutes for three months straight. And when it dropped 5%, he would take it at the grounding bag outside every month and then recharge it for about 10 to 20 minutes by putting it out on the lawn outside. And that was it. That's all he needed to do is a passive test and his deep sleep improved about 60% consistently. And that's a third party independent doctor test. Dr. Barre Lando, he has Alfa Vedic, A-L-F-A-V-E-D-I-C. If you don't know him, I'm going to introduce you because you guys will love connecting. And he is absolutely brilliant. Actually, he's one of the most brilliant guys on the planet, huge voice in the health space. And he has these dual impedance antennas.

And so he measures your chi and as Bruce Lipton will say, your health lies in your chi and the chemistry in your body is secondary. So he measures the chi and any distortion and it can tell him exactly what's going on with you. What's wrong with your health. He’s the grounding bags. He tested, they clinically passively treated up to 91% of the markers that were off from EMF, which is huge, the lowest was 67% and she was the youngest in the field. And then her thymus was decharged. So the tapping protocol that I had you do where you take the bag and you put it, you know, over your chest, upper chest and tap on it. If we would have done that with her, I have a feeling the results would have been even higher on the way for him, but because it was a passive test, he didn't do that. It wasn't me doing it. It was all him.

So the grounding bags have just some incredible merit from a doctor's testing just outside of what the market's really shown to do and how well they work.

Ashley James (0:20:25.770)

So a few years ago, I interviewed Clint Ober, who I'm sure you know who Clint Ober is since you're in the earthing or grounding space, Episode 366. He has a really interesting story. He was hanging out in Sedona and he was watching these tourists get off the bus and he just had this aha moment because he looked at every single person wears rubber sold shoes, so they're insulated. And we're all driving around in insulated cars because the wheels are rubber..

And then we go into a house and largely where our lives are insulated and almost never do we ever touch the earth. And so he went back to his hotel room. He got a device that you can get at Home Depot to measure your voltage or your Watts or like, I don't know, I don't know anything about electric electricity, but basically measure your electrical potential versus the earth potential. And what he saw was that his body, which should be at earth potential, wasn't. And he thought, oh, this is interesting. I can't remember if he put it out the window or put it into the ground of the electrical outlet beside him, but he like taped it to his body.

And then the next day he slept with it. The next day he could have just went out and, slept on a rock. But I mean, he already paid for this hotel room, so why not?

And the next day he tested himself and he saw he was at earth potential and he felt good. And he thought, I wonder if there's something here. And he went up and down the coast, all the universities trying to get the professors to do studies on this. And they'll kind of laughed at him. And then he finally found some professors cause he funded it. He just was super interested in this concept of what would happen to the human physiology if we all took the time to get to earth potential to release the excess electrons that are built up in the body. 

Could this be man made, based on our lifestyle, man made free radicals that are bombarding our DNA, causing further inflammation in addition to the crap diet that Americans and now the rest of the world eat largely unless you're a health nut like you and I and our listeners?

And he finally found some professors that would do it and he invested in, I think it was 26 studies and they found like there was people with MS who went from being in pain in wheelchairs to like being out of pain and walking, because of how much this lowered their inflammation. And he just got super excited, but he invented these mats and everything. And the mats are kind of cumbersome. I got to tell you, you can't take them everywhere with you. You're only using it like in your in your bed or you're only using it in your office. And I liked the one in my office, but I found that the one in the bed, although my husband would sleep good, I felt like I was being hooked up to electricity. Like I just felt kind of a bit more jittery. And so I found that using the grounding mats were more of a daytime thing for me, not a nighttime thing. I didn't get the same feeling from your bag of rocks. From your grounding bag, I did not have that same jittery feeling when the mat was hooked up to the ground of the electrical outlet.

And I just wonder if it's because it's more natural, right? So, but I did interview Clint Ober. So it's a good interview for people who want to learn more about earthing and grounding in general. Cause you can also put your feet outside. But I was talking to a client the other day. I'm like, just go walk in the grass and she's like, but it's cold outside. I'm like, listen, just do it. And she goes, yes, I felt really good, but like, you have to do that every day. You got to go barefoot every day as much as possible. That might be nice if you're in Southern California, but like I'm from the North and we're not barefoot six months of the year.

And we're hardly as humans ever touching getting back to earth potential. And the question is, how long do you have to earth? Like do earthing, do you have to do it for 30 minutes, 60 minutes, how many times a day do you have to do it to maintain those results, right? And then I also have an interview, Episode 402 with Dr. Steven Sinatra on the heart health benefits of earthing or grounding. So I like the bag of rocks. What I like about it, this specific EMF rocks are, you can take them everywhere. It's super, super easy. You don't have to plug it into an outlet. I like that. Tell us a bit about how did it change the air in the room? Because it changes the entire atmosphere. Like it mellows everything out. I don't even have to be touching the bag but I have it in the office and I have been more productive in the last few days with this bag in the office than I have in months. It just shifts things. Is it because just by being in this room with me, it's protecting me from the EMF? Like, can you just explain this more?

Justin Frandson (0:25:53.671)

Definitely. Well, first off, Ashley, you have a gift, obviously, and the gift of awareness and the gift of feeling energy. And not everyone can feel the energy like you do and that shift in your environment. So some people call it a sensitivity, which it could be as well because we had to do some clearing with you on the tapping of it.

And, I too have that sensitivity, but it's more of a gift and awareness. And I'm so glad you brought up Clint Ober's name and his book Earthing, cause I give him so much gratitude for bringing this concept to the masses. I mean, he was the guy that really put it on the map and said, Hey, everybody, you got to get grounded by nature and get outside because that's how you heal and get rid of inflammation. And here are all these studies that go along with it. And I'm with you. I agree. I love his information. And just as I love Dr. Mercola's information on EMF and he wrote a book called EMF and the information spot on, but their products just aren't unfortunately, and when you're plugging something into the grid or to the electrical grid,

Remember, electricity doesn't travel in through the wires. It actually travels around the outside of them. So even though it's on a grounding plug, which is the bottom one, it's still getting all the electricity from the source. So you're literally charged to the level of the outlet, even though it's going to the ground outside. It's just too much. Electricity and technology is awesome for healing.

And we have to understand that when you use PEMF or sound beds, I use bioharmonic technology as Dr. Steven Schwartz, like one of my favorite products. So I'm on a sound bed. It's like you're inside of a speaker and the frequencies coming out of there are just so medicinal. I go into theta brainwave state just instantly. The list goes on and on. There's so much electricity out there.

When you use that, it's great for your body to jumpstart it and to kick it into healing mode. But when you're attempting to do that for EMF protection 24-7, it's a futile effort. You can't use electricity or plug something into it or manufacture a resonance to create a coherence. People are attempting to do it and they're marketing it as that it can, butI lean it back and ask the question, hey Ashley, do you like eating genetically modified food?

Ashley James (0:28:51.480)

No thanks.

Justin Frandson (0:28:52.216)

No way, none of us do. So why would we want a modified resonance in our environment? That's the net of it. So you asked how the crystals work. Well, there's this thing called the Schumann Resonance. It's the healing pulse of the earth and it's about 7.3 Hertz or waves per second. That's what the frequency is.

That's what we're putting in, that's what the earth has and where we've just captured a really special part of the earth with our coiloidal crystals that have moisture magnetic properties that can carry that frequency and help with EMF protection. When you bring that bag of crystals into your home, what it does is it creates a coherence between you and your environment. And we live in these homes, we call them homes, but they're actually electrical boxes, literally since 1889. We've put electricity in our homes. And before that, the flu, they called the flu the flu because it would fly in and fly out with solar flares. And not until electricity was put into the home was the flu here to stay. I mean, that's a huge, huge point. So even low-level EMF is affecting our bodies and everything, diabetes, Alzheimer's, cardiovascular, every major health challenge has gone up on the bar graph, like crazy. And obviously diabetes kind of took the cake, but I feel it's more of electromagnetic sensitivity and it jumped up so high because all the manufactured fake foods. But these resonances, they affect our body in such a huge way. And so that's part of the whole concept of understanding that when you can go outside into nature, you're going to be able to create a coherence. When you can bring the resonance of nature into your home, it's innately and naturally the most quantum natural way you could do it, create that coherence within your environment of your home or bedroom or office.

Ashley James (0:31:09.840)

What you just said reminded me of when I interviewed Arthur Firstenberg, who is the author of The Invisible Rainbow. That is a really good book and I highly recommend everyone read it. It’s thick, man. It's probably three and a half, four inches thick. It's a big book from what I remember. But the first chapter captured me so much. I had requested he be on the show. I hadn't even finished the first chapter yet. I'm like, this is amazing. And he outlines, he studied the history of electricity and I was blown away because what's really interesting is we've been using electricity for a lot longer than a hundred years especially in medicine. And so he talks about the history of how we've used frequency and electricity for a long time. There's good aspects around it, but he shows you just after that leap in technology, there was a major epidemic or pandemic.

So he came on the show Episode 445. And he talks about when we first went to 1G, like when we went from analog, it was in the 90’s. I think it was with ‘95 or ‘98. I can't remember the exact time, but it was the first time they turned on the switch in Manhattan and there was like a mini pandemic only in Manhattan. Nowhere else in the world. And all these health problems happened overnight the second they turn on that switch. And so you could clearly see it's like we're guinea pigs, right? And who's to say this is healthy, right? The FCC, right? Oh yes, so cell phones are healthy. And now we see that if you hold the cell phone to your head for three minutes, you're cooking your brain.

I never hold a cell phone to my head. You know, it's so damaging and we're going to see it a few years. I just know it. We're going to see. They'll finally we have studies coming out showing the damaging effects of having Bluetooth devices on our body or by our head, having cell phones on our person at all times, they already have this information, but it's not like super mainstream yet kind of like back when they did bloodletting with leeches, that was real popular. And they used lead and mercury in medicine and that was super popular. And then they used x-rays like willy nilly, like you could go into a shoe store and get your foot x-rayed every time you tried on a shoe to see if the shoe fit your foot.

Until they realize oh, that's damaging too. Oh, lead in gasoline, super healthy for you, right? Lead in everything until they finally realize that it's unhealthy. So we have a lot of devices. The thing is we have to remember that just because you bought it in the store doesn't mean it's safe. There's no vetting process. We are constantly being exposed to things that are just killing us. And companies get to make these products. They get to make products that hurt us.

They think they're going to get away with it. They don't look into the safety studies. There's companies largely are not ethical. It's up to the consumer to do their own due diligence. So that device you have in your pocket every day that you're scrolling on could be doing a lot of damage. And one of my guests, I can't remember which one, it might've been Dr. Steven Sinatra said that was really interesting. When you hold a cell phone, the mitochondria go to sleep. Wherever the cell phone is nearby. So if you're holding in your hand the cells of your hand, the mitochondria, they just go nighty night they go to sleep. And if you're holding it by your head, you now you're getting the 5000 mitochondria per cell to take a nap of for your brain. Your brain cells are not getting the necessary food they need.  It's just wild that we're being bombarded by this electromagnetic radiation, all these different frequencies, we have no idea what they're all doing to us. And especially when we mix them all together, like how many Wi-Fi signals and cell phone towers are all coming at us, right? And I used to live out in the country where you couldn't get cell reception and man, did I sleep good. Or anytime there's a notice when there's a power outage, as long as you're not worried about the power outage, right?

You sleep so good or go camping, right? You sleep so good when all the wifi shut off and all the cell towers are shut off or you're away from them. You're somewhere in the middle of nowhere. You sleep so good. So, you know, how many people are taking meds to mask the symptoms that EMF exposure is causing? So anyways, I want to talk more about the solution than the problem, but I think it's really poignant that we point out that there's a lot we don't know. Because it's invisible, we think it's safe.

Justin Frandson (0:36:22.958)

Yes, exactly. And let me share why you don't sleep with EMF.

Sound good?

Ashley James (0:36:29.164)

Yes, let's do it.

Justin Frandson (0:36:30.500)

Let's talk about this EMF stuff, Ashley, in a wave per second, because that's how we measure it. When you go to buy a meter, a EMF meter, electromagnetic field or frequency meter, the specific meters are designed to measure the speed of a wave length. So if you get a milligas meter, it's going to meter 50 to 60 Hertz or waves per second.

If you get a Stetzer electric meter, S-T-E-T-Z-E-R,, it's about 140 bucks, you plug it in the wall. That'll meter any static in the line, any dirty electricity in the 4,000 do about a hundred thousand waves per second spectrum. When you get an acoustometer, a one-directional wireless meter, it doesn't have to be one-directional. I like those, but they're measuring 50 million to billions of waves per second. And just to clarify, 5G is 60 to 90 gigahertz or billion waves per second. 

When we're sleeping, Ashley, our brainwaves state, we're in a delta or theta brainwave state. Our brainwaves states are one or below 1 to 8 hertz or waves per second. 1 or below 1 to 8. When our athletes are in the flow state with athleticism, they can't miss. Everyone calls it, they're in the zone. They're in an alpha brainway state about 8 to 12 Hertz or waves per second. Remember the Schumann Resonance of the earth, the healing pulse of the earth, 7.83 Hertz or waves per second. We rev one with the universe. 

Now the difference is this other stuff, it's way faster, but not only that, they're one directional wave forms or they don't work. So they end up being polarizing on our body. And that is the essence of the difference between us and non-native EMFs. They're not made the same as we are. And the most simple explanation, Ashley, is when you drop a pebble into a pond, does the wave splash of the pebble going into the water go in a circular direction equally in every direction, or does it go in a straight line to the right or left?

Ashley James (0:39:06.345)

Oh, yes. Yes, that nice, beautiful circular ripple.

Justin Frandson (0:39:10.611)

Why is that? Okay, that is because it's an unpolarized wave. It's the foundational framework of our entire living collective intelligence matrix of a universe and how we're one with the universe. We're also built on unpolarized waves. They distribute equally in every direction. It's not a one-directional waveform. They're called scalar waves. That's a framework for every waveform resonance on earth.

My energy field. they say, hey, stay six feet. Our biofield goes out about 6 to 8 feet from everybody all around us. It's not straight out of my right ear. You have to stay six feet away from my right ear, but it's not a one directional waveform. I'm not standing in the Schumann Resonance and getting grounded in one spot of the beach or the park and then step over the right and I'm not getting grounded in the other spot. It's not a one spot. It's a resonance that's unpolarized, that's everywhere, distributes equally in every direction. And so let me just stop there and then I'll go into the waves and particles and our atmosphere next.

Ashley James (0:40:25.190)

Okay, cool. Yes, the Schumann Resonance, super interesting. Episode 445, Arthur Firstenberg, he touched on that. And what's interesting, and I've heard this before, that when astronauts started going outside of Earth, they would start getting sick because they were not part of the Schumann Resonance anymore. We can't hear it because it's always there, right? It's ubiquitous with our life, we're all bathed in it. But when you leave the earth, you're no longer bathed in it. And we start getting sick, which makes sense. So we're separating ourselves from this Schumann Resonance when we insulate our lives, never touch the earth, and then surround ourselves with totally different frequencies that are drowning it out.

And no wonder, like in the book Invisible Rainbow, he outlines so many of these diseases that have risen. We can say physiologically like I see the clogged artery over here. I had an expert on my show who's a research cardiologist, he's the one that discovered the beginning of heart disease started 30 years before.

And it all starts with the inflammation. Well, what's causing the inflammation, right? Go even further. And with the studies that Clint Ober funded, we can see that by getting back to earth potential, we've removed the excess electrons that are causing the damage. So that's just on that level we're not even talking about. Now take it one step further and protect ourselves from these waves, right? The waves of these unnatural, non-native EMF waves that were constantly being bathed in from cell towers and all the electronics we're surrounded by. So back to the bag of rocks. The skeptic in me is going, alright, come on, tell us how the bag of rocks helps us because it's a bag of rocks. But seriously, I feel amazing when it's around. So, just by being in the room, how is it helping prevent EMF exposure?

Justin Frandson (0:42:52.766)

Because you're bringing nature's resonance into your home to create a coherence between you and your environment. And obviously there's some EMF in your environment that is a little strong for your biofield to take. And so you see it chemistry wise. And the person who said that your mitochondria gets disrupted right out of the gates is exactly right. Dr. Martin Paul of Washington State University talks about the voltage gated calcium channels breaking down. Let's break down those four words.

Those are voltage gated. That's a gateway for your mitochondria to get energy for your body. It's so simple. So right out of the gate, it disrupts our cellular health, our mitochondria function, where we get energy and it's an oxidative stress. It destructures water. It calcifies your pineal gland. So you're not going to get in those lucid dreams and be able to go into those more awareness states.

That's what we do every day is to help everyone learn and through experiences and getting out into nature to raise their level of consciousness. All that stuff is disrupted through EMF. And then it goes into more of the cognitive stuff. So you get into the lack of memory, focus, anxiety, more behavioral challenges, fatigue, stress, headaches, ringing in the ears.

Those are all level one EMS sensitivity. So we see it in such a broad spectrum. There's level two and three, which I'll get into in a little bit, but this stuff is a stressor. We don't typically see air, right? Unless you're in LA and it's all polluted. You don't see air. So you don't see these wave forms, but let's talk about our air.

Our air is ether or plasma waves and particles travel through it. That's how you're in Washington. I am in Southern California. We're able to communicate and have this awesome conversation that everyone's going to be able to hear across the world. So it's through wave forms and the wave forms traveling through this air, which is, particles and waves and when there's a shift in that, our bodies adapt. And as Arthur Firstenberg says in The Invisible Rainbow, before 1889, when there were a lot of people that got sick, it was from solar flares or cosmic shifts in our electromagnetic blanket of an atmosphere. And then once electricity hit our home, the flu was here to stay and then we had shifts where people adapted to bigger electrifications of non-native waveforms. So 1918, Spanish flu, they also introduced radio waves right at that same timeframe. So that's why a lot of people all around the world, even back then when they couldn't travel, they would get the same symptoms. Their bodies were naturally adapting to that frequency, that challenge, that new environment. And I have a flow chart from Dr. Darren Weissman. He developed the system called the Lifeline Technique, and he uses infinite love and gratitude to clear the body. And in his flow chart, one of the healing modalities is you go into waves and particles, or particles and waves, and it directly affects your REM patterns is the next thing.

So we know like even doctors that had no bearing on EMF, it's in their modality, their healing charts. And if it's cosmic or manmade, our bodies are still adapting at the level we're capable of when there's these big shifts. Then you had radio waves, then you had satellites, and then you had radar, World War II, and then what did we have last several years? And keep having, 5G. And they keep adding and adding and turning it up. And so when a lot of people get sick, it's too much of it. Like you fly in an airplane, there's so much EMF. I have clients that their glucose levels spike 200 points and they get a bloody nose instantly from flying an airplane. So we know that this invisible environment affects us. And we know that nature is designed to create a coherence when we can bring her resonance into our environment. Then the question is how much of it, how much of the earth's resonance do we need in our environment and what we've seen in the test show and we sell our grounding bags through doctor clinics all around the country. So that's where they're sold exclusively through. And there's protocols to dealing with it. So five grounding bags together will clear a 2000 square feet space. One is about 70 feet, and then you want it touching the source. So you want it on your bed or desk or car seat. If someone has solar, we want seven grounding bags together to clear 2000 square feet, because solar, they haven't figured out how to ground it. They just haven't, and it caused lots of static in the line. So every home that I've metered over the last decade that has solar has really high levels of dirty electricity. Then you go into the electric car thing, which is, ugh, it's insane. It's the most ridiculous product that's ever been made. Sitting on a massive battery is not good for your health. Pharma can't even make that up. It never will be and that's what they're deploying for families. And that causes 18% lower testosterone as guys and girls driving electric cars. So we got to look at our environment.

Ashley James (0:49:20.573)

Wow. I know people who feel sick when they get into electric vehicles. I have a friend who felt like his skin was on fire, like fire ants were biting him when he got into a Tesla. And we all have different ranges of our tolerance level, kind of like alcohol, right? You have that friend who could drink you under the table. Then, there's people like me, I don't drink alcohol for this reason, but half a beer. And I'm dancing on the table with the lamp shade on my head. So, I actually was a bartender when I was 19. A fun story. I loved having jobs as a kid. And so as early as I could back up in Canada, where I'm from, you can legally be a bartender at 19. I wasn't like doing it like under the table or anything but every summer I had summer jobs. Absolutely loved it.

I worked in so many industries, I learned so much, it was so much fun for me. And so as a bartender, I looked around and I'm like, I don't really tolerate alcohol that well, but then like having to babysit drunk people, not for me, definitely didn't want to drink alcohol, but watching people's alcohol tolerance is a really interesting observation to then correlate that to other tolerances like pain. Everyone has heard of different pain level tolerances and an EMF tolerance. And so you can have someone who could drive a Tesla and they're like, I don't feel anything. I feel great. I love my Tesla and I don't care that my testosterone is plummeted. And other people they get in one and they start feeling really sick. 

I did an interview a few years ago with Kellyann Andrews. She has an amazing ionic foot spa that removes heavy metals from your body, significant amounts of it. She was at the library and a woman is walking with a cane. And all of a sudden her legs just stop working. She falls to the ground like a marionette who had her strings cut. And Kellyanne is a nurse. So she runs over and she's helping this woman.

And the woman says, I don't know what happened. I'm really sensitive to EMF exposure. And, that's why I walk with a cane and usually my muscles stop working when I'm near EMF, but I'm not near any, and Kellyanne looked and walked around the desk that she had walked by and there was all the computer banks hidden right behind this desk or wall or something that this woman had walked by. And so Kellyanne brought her back to her house and gave her these treatments with the ionic foot spa called the platinum energy system.

And the woman left her cane at Kellyanne's house and Kellyanne had to chase after her running to her car saying, you forgot your cane, you forgot your cane. And the woman's like, oh my gosh, you're right. Wow, I feel a lot stronger. And so she proceeded to do more of these treatments and got all the heavy metals out of her and then she stopped being as sensitive. 

Well, when I had Dr. Klinghardt on the show, he talks about how we are more sensitive to EMFs when we have heavy metal toxicity. And who doesn't these days, if you've ever had a vaccine, you've had a heav metal of some kind put in you. But if you've eaten tuna or if you've eaten any kind of a large fish, if you drank from cans and I don't know, I grew up around lead paint. I have been dealing for years, very slowly, healthfully, gradually getting rid of my heavy metal toxicity. And every time I see a naturopath about it, they always look at my labs and look at me and go, did you grow up in a factory? Were you mining coal? Why do you have these? I'm like, I don't know. I think everyone has different levels of detox. So even if you didn't grow up near a factory, you're breathing in, it's in our air, it's in our food. Heavy metals are just part of life of this modern toxic life. And some people detox better than others. But if you have an accumulation of heavy metals, then they vibrate at the same frequency as the microwaves and the wifi, and they're vibrating in your brain and they're vibrating in your cells, and it's causing havoc. And so people who walk near the EMF, it's like it triggers all this metal inside their body that's now vibrating, and then they have these big symptoms, right? Whereas someone who's really clean and their body have safe levels of heavy metals or they have no heavy metals.

They seem to have a higher tolerance for how much EMF they can handle before they start to notice it. But EMF is unhealthy regardless of if you feel it or not. And that's something really important to remember because it's invisible. And if you don't feel it, you're less likely to do anything about it. Like, that's why high blood pressure is this silent killer. Because if you have high blood pressure, you don't really feel it until it's too late or until it's too high. That's being constantly bombarded by something that's doing this slow microscopic damage to us. And for some people like me, I am more sensitive and I can feel when there's shifts in the room. Like I'm holding my bag of rocks right now, feel amazing. And I don't think I've ever been in an electric vehicle before nor do I want to.

Justin Frandson (0:54:53.956)

Lucky you. Well, when, when I was interviewed by Tom Cowan several years ago, I forget what number it was, like conversation with Tom Cowan number 14. He talked about this kind of hitting his radar and his list. One of his clients or patients at that time was a electrician and he was also a surfer and the guy ended up breaking his arm and couldn't get in the water and surf anymore

but he had a metal plate put in his arm. And so he was out of the water, sidelined, but then he had a huge metal rod put in his body, and he started getting all these EMF sensitivity symptoms. 

And so Tom correlated the two, and he's like, you got to get grounded. You're like, you got to get back in the ocean. That's why you're getting all these symptoms. He was so toxic. And when you have more metal, whether it's from tattoos or metal plates or hips or shoulders, or vaccines or fillings or amalgams or what have you, you're going to definitely be more EMF sensitive. 

So you got to go through those detox protocols to flush and get the metals out. And you got to get grounded as much as you can as well. And then a subtle simple protocol that we use for radiation flushing is apple cider vinegar, bentonite clay and protease, which is a proteolytic enzyme. It's a digestive enzyme. And so the three of those together, just recommended amounts every day will help flush all that EMF internally out. 

And then you go through the tapping program with our bags where you tap on the bag and then you cover your eyes with the other hand and then teeth and then upper chest thymus and then intestine area, one at a time for about 20 seconds each. You'll feel your energy shift just as you did, Ashley, where you're flushing your biofield, you're clearing toxicity out of your energy field. It doesn't only get stuck internally with the heavy metal, but it also gets stuck in your energy field.

I mean, Eileen McKusick talks a lot about tuning forks and clearing your biofield through tuning forks sound therapy. She can clear generations out of stuck emotional challenges and such in there. And so, and the other part that I don't want to mention is she talks about the body in the best way. It acts like a body battery where we get a negative charge from the earth's resonance. We get a positive charge from the sunlight, the unpolarized light of the sun, distributes equally in every direction. 

We breathe in minerals. That's why Zach Bush says, hey, get in all these different microbiomes. They're great for you. Hopefully we get it from our food, right? The nutrients and the minerals. And then we drink the water for all that as well, plus the conductivity of it all. 

That's how our body battery works. If we're missing any one of those components, then those are gateways or opportunities. If our eyes get decharged, or our teeth get decharged or our thymus loses its polarity, we become a gateway for disease in the body.

Ashley James (0:58:24.734)

I, a year ago learned how to correct polarity and I've been doing it with my clients. I've done it with just about 150 clients in the last year. And one of my clients didn't even tell me half the things that she was suffering from. She calls me up. She leaves me a voice message. I still have it actually put it in Episode 500. We have a testimonial episode because she gave me permission to share it. And it was so cool. Cause I taught her how to correct her polarity.

And a few days later, she leaves me this message. And I remember when I first listened to it, I had it playing in the car. My husband's driving home with it with our son. And I have it playing and I'm just smiling ear to ear because it was the wildest thing. 

She goes, Ashley, I have to thank you because for the last six years I suffered from, and then she lists the weirdest symptoms and some of them you've mentioned because they're similar to EMF poisoning symptoms, right? Like she felt completely ungrounded. She felt dizzy. Anytime she went near trees or nature, it was weird. She actually had to unground herself. She felt safer when she was in a second story versus near the ground.

She grew a phobia, not a phobia to water, but like water made her feel sick. Things that were healthy seemingly made her feel sick because her polarity was completely reversed. So things that were good were like bad. And she had gone to doctor after doctor and healer after healer for years. And it was feeling so out of whack. She just had to lie down. She'd feel dizzy and weak.

Weird, weird symptoms. I taught her how to correct her polarity. Her polarity got corrected and she goes, it's all gone. All of it's gone. All of the symptoms I suffered from are gone. And that's how powerful it is to correct your polarity.

It's really interesting. Again, you can't see it. So it's like, it's invisible. So a lot of times we are very skeptical around these things, but we understand like, if you took a bunch of metal shavings, right. And put it around a magnet, you can actually see the polarity of the magnet, which is so freaking cool. It's called a torus where the shape comes out of one pole and goes around to the other pole, but it's three dimensional.

But the shavings, obviously, because the gravity isn't going to float. So you're just seeing it two-dimensionally on the table, right? You're not seeing the whole field, but that's our bodies too. We have like a North Pole and a South Pole and we have this, it's called a torus, the shape of the electromagnetic field that's coming out of our body.

Something like way back in the day, I went with a friend. I was like about 19 years old and I went with a friend to this. I don't know how to describe it because there was a psychic fair, but it was a classroom where he was teaching life skills that had to do with more on the esoteric side, but like, here's the science behind it.

And he says, okay, I'm going to show you that you have this electromagnetic field that you actually have. We call it in the new age, we call it an aura. But like in science, you're like, you have an electromagnetic field that we can actually measure. And because we have this energy field that comes out of our body.

And so he took, he took dowsing rods, which again, sound very woo woo, but I'll get to that in a sec. And he was about 25 feet away from this woman. He said, turn your back to me, just stand here on the stage. And he held these metal rods and he walked towards her. And then all of a sudden they move on their own. He's just very delicately holding them, balancing them in his hands. He's not doing anything with his hands and they just move.

And then he talks to her and he shares with her how to pull in and shrink her aura or her electromagnetic field. And he does it again. He shows that it's smaller than he says, now I want you to expand your consciousness, expand your awareness, make it really big. And they showed that she could do it like 50 feet if she wanted to. And then we all got to play with it. And you really, it's so cool because these dowsing rods actually do move on their own when you hit someone's field.

Now I wasn't thinking this was like magic voodoo new age stuff because I had worked with a plumber, we had a septic tank and it was the winter and he couldn't find the septic tank or the entrance to it and so he got his dowsing rods. He said, this is a plumbing tool here in Canada, up in the North, where we have to like find your septic tank in the snow. You grab dowsing rods because anytime there's moving water or a body of water or pipes in your house or electrical, you can find it by holding these two rods and walking across the electromagnetic field and the electromagnetic field will move them for you.

And so I got super excited. I took two hangers, bent them in the shape of dowsing rods. And I walked around my house finding all the pipes and all the wires. Cause it's so neat to have something move in your hands. I can't see it. You can't see the electromagnetic field, but you're surrounded, your entire house. Just like you said, your entire house is surrounded. Your entire house is surrounded with this constant bombardment of electromagnetic fields, whether it's a healthy one, like a water moving through pipe, that seems kind of benign.

But then there's all these wires and the electricity is moving on the outside. That's the electromagnetic field. So, it's so interesting that we have this energy field that is affected by everything around us, but our energy field is not just a few inches from our body. It's feet. It's feet from our body.

And it's part of us because we are electrical, right? God forbid, if you had to go to the hospital, they'd hook you up to electrodes and they'd measure the electricity in your body, whether it be your heart or your brain, to see how it's going, right? To see what's up, to diagnose things. So we don't have electricity running through us. We are not alive.

Do you have any more like science you want to share about the EMF rocks? Do you have any more science or studies or research? Because like the ancient wisdom bringing and then going, Hey, here's modern science to prove that this ancient wisdom, like the Schumann Resonance and we should be at earth potential, actually there's something to it, we can now measure it. There's something to it. I mean, we know we can feel it. But now let's prove it with science. So do you have any more that you can share with us?

Justin Frandson (1:05:07.872)

Yes, definitely. I mean, the first two right out of the gates that I shared are huge tests that I lean in on because everyone will feel the benefits in their sleep. I mean, that's where you'll see it the most. So 3% to 60% deeper sleep, barely and correct and passively up to 91%. I do pH tests and your pH will normalize. So I've done pH tests which is crazy. You go stand in front of a Tesla battery for solar on someone's home. That's right next to the smart meter. And for every minute that you're in front of that, you have to have 10 minutes away from it to clear it out. So it takes a little time to do the test, but the pH paper after you tap on the bags and stand from it, you have a better pH than when you started.

So, we've done med bed tests where you put it on a med bed and it actually grounds it out. We're talking about us carrying more voltage. We're not supposed to carry extra non-native electromagnetic voltage in our system, but most of us walk around with extra six volts or so.

So that's why it's so important to get grounded. So the grounding bags will help normalize that as well. We'll see it on EEG tests,that coherence that we're having, you'll have more normalized. The doctors do their own third-party tests. So I get a lot of results from doctors and just from their own testing to say, hey, one grounding bag kicks out about 70 feet, the five together is better.

Dr. Charlie Fagan-Holtz, who's one of the fastest growing doctors out there, huge following online course. He is amazing. He just upped our time to recharge the bags by putting them on the ground. He said 10 to 20 minutes, once a month before we never even recommending recharging the grounding bags. Cause when the crystals are in solid form, they're ground. And so there's bags, I still have in my house where we haven't re-grounded them. They're still working, they're still effective as long as they're in solid form. Once they lose their form, they lose their function, for EMF protection. But I've leaned in to a lot of the doctors because we sell them all through these doctor clinics, MDs to Chiros to Naturopaths, there's a ray of different doctors, acupuncturists and all, that do their own testing with it. And probably one of the coolest things I just went into the doctor this past week for a chest cold and I was in a toxic environment. I was at a trade show and then an event in Las Vegas for a week straights with secondhand smoke and not grounding, bad lighting, and I got up a respiratory thing. And so I go in to clear it.

And she's like, Oh, you're EMF sensitive. And I said, well, let me show you. The clinic sells my grounding bags. And so I said, go grab a grounding bag. So I went through the tapping protocol and it totally flushed the EMF out of the biofield. I wasn't sensitive to EMF anymore. And she was a new doctor to this clinic, so she didn't know all the protocols with it. She just thought you just passively place it on there. But the other cool thing is it's one of the only products on the market that's an active healing product where you can tap on it and actively flush and 10X your energy. How has you felt so much more productive when you tapped on it and wanted to go do stuff? That's what it did is it upped your energy field. It got the mitochondria to function. It created a coherence with our environment.

And probably one of the biggest messages that I think is the standout message for us in our talk today is having a coherence with our environment because our environment could kill us instantly or it could allow us to thrive. And we have to understand that we're one with our environment as nature.

And when we can get out into it and create that coherence, we're going to recharge our body battery and be able to heal. And it's really tough to heal when you're decharged. So it's one of the first missed steps of getting people to heal is to get outside in nature and reground. And then when we can't get outside, and if you're in the colder temperatures, touch a tree. If you can't go barefoot, hug it if that's your thing. Get into bodies of water. I do cold water therapy all the time in the ocean, no wetsuit, I'm in there for extended periods of time, no matter what the temp is. And so I'm putting the work, you guys, you got to put in the work and then bring that resonance into your home. And that's going to be huge for you. Bring that resonance into your home through the grounding bags.

Ashley James (1:10:27.871)

Now your website, listeners can go to as in, woohoo, it rocks! Also, they're also a bag of rocks. and coupon code LTH. There's a lot of really interesting stuff on your website. You have the tapping protocol on your website. You also have these Faraday bags. Can you tell us a bit about why someone should have a Faraday bag? What are they used it for? I mean, beyond the obvious, like put your cell phone in it, but like, what do you use these Faraday bags for?

Justin Frandson (1:11:01.435)

Yes. So this has been a crazy journey. I mean, literally just over a decade, I've learned that EMFs and how they rev differently than us and how we're one with our nature and because I had some sensitivity, I could feel it. If I had a really watch on my hand, I could feel the pain underneath it. I've had a lot of learning experiences over the years with EMF and what keeps turning into then it's like, okay, how does it affect our body? How does it affect our sleep? How does it affect your hormones? And so it's leaned in on the next topic, which is our privacy and our security, and these cell phones are designed to aggregate all your information at record speeds and send it to artificial intelligence and to learn so they can do surveillance marketing to sell you more products. 

Every app on your phone actually has about one to 15 trackers on it. It tracks your gate, how fast you drive it, knows all your pass codes and your bank accounts and literally everything about you. These phones are tracking at record speeds and learning from you. And so the Faraday bags are awesome because you can put your phone in it and ours are really inexpensive bags are $12 to $15 bags. The blackout ones are over several hundred dollar bags. 

And so ours, when we first made them a handful of years ago they would pretty much black out everything. Well, the telecoms up the signal strength of these devices. And so you're really carrying a high powered router in your hand. That's way over 2.45 gigahertz or waves per second in your hand. And so when I first made them, we test the phone and the phone wouldn't ring inside of them. Now they do. So frequencies go in and out of our Faraday bag. But when you put a positive polarizing charge of a cell phone in a Faraday bag, it squashes it to safe levels. 

And when you put good into it, it amplifies it of a negative charge and amplifies, so it's a crazy deal. But anyway, for purposes of putting a cell phone in the Faraday bag, it not only squashes it to what would consider safe levels, but what muscle testing considers safe levels. So I do lots of applied kinesiology. I've been muscle testing for over 30 some years.

Now, you can test when you're proficient at testing the body's reflexes and energy through applied kinesiology, you can test and showcase how our grounding bags work. But when you put a phone in the bag and seal it, even if the phone's ringing inside the bag, you muscle test strong. Just holding the phone outside the bag, you muscle test weak. So, we know that it's really beneficial for the body just to have it in the inside the Faraday bag and your phone will still ring most likely in it now with them turning up the signal strength. But what it does is it slows down that data harvesting, that aggregation of information. So the life of your battery lasts longer.

Ashley James (1:14:41.654)

Wow. Crazy. Alright, well I'm going to test that. 

Justin Frandson (1:14:49.460)

It's so fun. Yes, it's a fun task and those things are super slick. They're really effective, but we got to slow down this aggregation of information from AI that we're giving away our fingerprints, our palm prints, our retinas, our voice, our face. These are called biometrics. They're our single most unique identifiers and we're giving them away at record speed. So this whole concept is turned into security and privacy. Which I know you're a homeschooling mom, like these are huge, huge parts of our body sovereignty and our freedom that we're giving away at record speed. So the more we can slow down their aggregation of our information, the better off we will be.

Ashley James (1:15:36.336)

Yes, there's that idea of the track tracing and database as all, but I've got a lot of friends who are like, I don't care about doing anything wrong. So what? So they know why I went to Starbucks. So what? My biggest concern is that while it needs to send out these signals every nanosecond in order to track trace and database you, and these signals are harming you. So if the phone didn't do all this tracking, it wouldn't have to constantly send out information. 

We also have like smart meters, which I talked about Robin Openshaw on my show. We had a whole long discussion about how dangerous smart meters are and how unhealthy they are.

Gosh, I'm thinking back and I realized I probably have at least 12 different interviews with experts on EMF over the years. I have one guy who this was back in the fifties, I mean, we're in, the five hundreds now way back and like the first year I started the podcast seven years ago, his name is Sal.

And he's got like, I don't know, two PhDs in electric stuff. He's like electrical engineer, super genius. But he's hired to go around the world. People hire him to go test, just like you test people's homes. And there'll be people who are sick, and they don't know why they're sick. And they have him come in, and he finds out that it's because it's dirty electricity in their home, or the whole neighborhood is messed up because the electricity coming into the entire neighborhood because there's one transformer that's whacked and the electricity could still come in, but it's dirty electricity. It's at such a frequency that it's, it's causing people to literally be sick. And so he comes in and tries to clean everything up. And he says, you know, smart meters, big bad, super big bad. And we're being strong armed into agreeing to have them.

They are sending out constant pulses through the whole house. Like you have, it's similar to if you had agreed to have a cell tower attached to your house. It's sending out pulses through the entire house at your body all the time. We're being bombarded and maybe you don't have one, but maybe your neighbor does, it's just, we're being constantly bombarded. So we have to step up our game to protect ourselves. 

I was sick for many years. If you've listened to my show for a few episodes, you've probably heard me talk about it, but I was sick for many years and that's what really had me doubled down on making sure that nothing toxic came into my house.

If you're, if you're not sick, you just go to the store and you buy whatever laundry detergent that has all kinds of carcinogens, cancer causing chemicals and you just buy the Colgate or the Crest toothpaste because that's what's there. That's what you grew up on or all the commercials you saw and it says, Oh, dentists approved this.

And we just, we just buy whatever's ever on the shelf, like some kind of Arm and Hammer deodorant or whatever. And meanwhile, they're filled with heavy metals. They're filled with carcinogens. We kept coming back to this point of manufacturers make stuff that is going to harm you. They don't do safety testing on their products because there's no approval process for that. And the EPA, 90% of new chemicals and products brought to the market, the EPA rubber stamps anyway. 

I have a whole really interesting interview about that. If anyone wants to listen, I don't remember the name number of it right now, but it's a guy named Andrew. I'll remember it. He's a world's leading expert on green homes and getting non-toxic building materials. He's super interesting. 

It was BMW or Mercedes, I can't remember which one came to him to figure out a solution to make non-toxic adhesives for their vehicles so that they could import their vehicles. Their vehicle that was made in the US so they could import it into Germany because Germany has higher standards than America. A lot of European countries have higher standards and they won't allow these toxic off-gassing glues and adhesives into their country, but they were using them on the American vehicles because there's no standards. 

So, there's a lot of damage being done to us every day because we're breathing. If you can smell something, it's in your bloodstream. If you smell a fragrance, your liver is processing it in 15 minutes. And we're constantly being bombarded. So I was really sick for a long time. I did a lot to clean up my diet, to clean up my life. I got the majority of my health back fairly quickly using natural medicine. And I've been at it working ever since to just be tomorrow I'll be a healthier version I am today every day, every day, little baby steps, every choice I make, what I put in my body, the products I use on my body. I'm going to be a healthier version I am today. 

And, and just like using this bag of rocks, I’m like, how flipping cool. Like if it's 3% every day, I can't wait to see what my life is like in 30 days, 60 days, 90 days. And then you sent me, and thank you, you sent me your brand new toothpaste that you just created. It's very interesting. I use healthy toothpaste. I know the look on his face, no one can see him, but he's laughing. And you have beautiful pearly whites, by the way. Listen, if you're a health nut like me,

If you're addicted to wellness like we are, you're going to freak out for his toothpaste. Because what I noticed is it exfoliated my gums, not in a way that made left them raw. I was just like, I felt around my mouth. I'm like, wow, I feel like I just went to the dentist. Like my whole mouth feels really clean. And it, yes, it like exfoliated everything. Like it totally polished my teeth. It's soft enough that it wouldn't hurt it. But it takes off the plaque.

I know you say it's three ingredients, but like one of the ingredients is water, and you can't really count that as an ingredient since I'm putting water on my toothbrush anyway. So it's really two ingredients. And you've got this kind of clay, I want you to tell us a bit about it. And then you've got this very, very light peppermint, and it's actually really pleasant because there's no sweeteners, there's no, and it doesn't.

It's spearmint, but it's just, it's just so, so, so light. It's not overwhelming because all the toothpaste I use, which are all natural anyway, it's like they dump half a bottle of essential oils in it. It's like, here, you're like a little bit of peppermint. Try half a bottle. And usually it's too overpowering for me when I'm brushing my teeth with all these other natural toothpastes and yours is just subtle. There's no bad flavor. It's just, it's a neutral flavor. You got a little bit tiny, tiny

hint of spearmint, so that's wonderful. And then my whole mouth felt sparkling clean. So yes, tell us a bit about why you designed this toothpaste and why is it only three ingredients, but one of them is water, so it's really two ingredients.

Justin Frandson (1:23:05.621)

Oh, thanks. Oh, it's so fun. Well, we hand-mined crystal. So we have access to mines and one of the mines is pink Montmorillonite and we have one of the purest forms anywhere in the world. It's over 85% pure pink Montmorillonite. So just to let people know, bentonite clay is 8 to 30% pure Montmorillonite and we're over 85% pure Montmorillonite. So bentonite clay is kind of like just dirt and it's not great for you. I recommend it for, it's a great chelator, it's really easily accessible, but Montmorillonite is exponentially better. And so it's so mineral dense, that's why people add fluoride and all this other crap to the toothpaste is because there's no minerals in it, so they want to remineralize the teeth. You naturally get the minerals, the essential minerals, calcium and silica and all these natural minerals that you need for your body. And that's why guaranteed you feel like you went to the dentist and your teeth are cleaner than ever, but it's naturally done that way. So we just use Montmorillonite hand-mined crystals and a 300 mesh form. That's toothpaste mesh that's safe and, and smooth on your teeth. And then we add organic spearmint and we have a citrus blend as well. And then just water, so distilled water, clean water, and that charges them and they're amazing.

Ashley James (1:24:41.371)

It was Episode 59 with Sal La Duca. I looked it up. So Sal La Duca, that's a good one. That might've been my first episode diving into EMF. And he had some wild stories. And then Andy Pace Episode 453 on non-toxic homes and achieving a non-toxic home and work environment. If you're ever going to renovate your house or build a house, you've got to listen to that episode. You can contact him. One of my friends that I actually had on the show. And then we became friends. I introduced him to Andy.

And he got him, because his son had cancer and he's now completely cancer free. And his cancer had come back. The first time they did it like half natural medicine, half whatever the oncologist wanted to do. And then it came back and they went to the oncologist and said, if you don't mind just watching and waiting, we want to try it 100% natural. And they were able to get rid of this very aggressive form of childhood cancer in their son the second time 100% naturally. And they realized that they had to spend the rest of his childhood preventing it from returning. And so they went to Andy and said, help us build an EMF safe, non-toxic home, like ground up. And so he helped them choose every single building material. There's only a handful of companies in the world that build, that make paints and glues adhesives with nothing that off gases and he's got access to them. So, so that's Episode 453.

And recently I just published this episode, Episode 514 about Nano Silver. And I want to say if you are looking to add one thing or maybe trade out the water. I would consider playing with nano silver. Maybe trading out the water and adding nano silver liquid. You can listen to my Episode 514, they have something like 50,000 dental procedures done with this nano silver and there's almost no infections. They have major, major dental procedures where they're like removing teeth and or doing implants and the next day there's zero infection, zero pain, zero inflammation because of the power of the nano silver. But I'm really excited about the mineral that's in or the crystal that's in this the toothpaste that you created. Can you say the name really slowly so I can say it? What is it called?

Justin Frandson (1:27:12.184)

It's pink Montmorillonite. And yes, I've actually considered having colloidal silver in it as well. And, the cool thing is, our Montmorillonite is so pure. It doesn't do well with anything else and it doesn't need anything else. So we're just going to probably stay with this for a bit, see how it goes. Maybe in the future we'll add that in there, but right now we don't really have a need for it because it's just so effective.

Ashley James (1:27:45.564)

It doesn't need it. Yes, it is. It feels really good and I thoroughly enjoyed it. It felt like my gums were exfoliated in a good way. It felt so clean. It felt cleaner than my super healthy toothpaste that I've been using for years. So good job creating this. How did you figure out to create this? Cause if I was mining crystal, I wouldn't be like, aha, I'm making a toothpaste. Like that. How did you get there from there?

Justin Frandson (1:28:16.486)

Well, Montmorillonite's really powerful for a lot of different things. They use it in koi fish, cattle feed. You can drink the cloud water. You can drink water with white in it. It's just so nutrient dense for the body. It's such an amazing healer. You could put it over wounds or spider bites, but the pink's really great for teeth. And so just learning about the crystals and having the history with the owners with these mines we've learned a lot about how the benefits of it and how clear it is. And there's so many, products that throughout the years that we've rolled out the toothpaste one, lean oil, the MCT oils one that helps. Buffer the insulin spiking with glucose from EMF. 

I want to go back to your smart meter talk. Josh Del Sol did a documentary movie called Take Back Your Power. So I want everyone to make sure they watch that one. That one's huge on smart meters. There's sporadic pulses, like 7 to 15 second pulses, multiple bandwidths are receiving and sending every several seconds. So it's just really challenging on our body, but he

first saw everything that's going on and that was about at least 12, 15 years ago when he produced that movie, just unbelievable documentary movie.

Ashley James (1:29:51.031)

Yes, that's the thing. It's like, you feel like smart meters are new, but they've been pushing it for a while. I remember hearing about it 15 years ago and the whistleblowers came out then. And all the utility companies just push forward because it's going to save them money. So as long as it saves that money, it's either, but businesses are in business to save money and make money.

And at the expense of our health. So we just have to remember that all businesses are out. It's like their secondary gain is to destroy the earth and the planet and humanity as long as they make a buck at the end of the day, right? And I know there are ethical companies because it's the person behind the company, right? So that's why I love interviewing these small businesses. Hopefully it won't be small forever, right? Like one day there might be a bag of rocks in every home. Cause it's so cool. And it's also like really neat to have friends over and be like, here, hold my bag of rocks. See how you feel, tap it a few times. What a fun gift, what a fun thing to have. How many? So I've got this big bag and tell us about how we should go about using it. So I've got this big bag. We've so far been sleeping with it and then during the day we carry it into the office with us and just feel good having it near us or we're touching it. How would someone

take the small bag and put it in their pocket and just walk around all day or their purse or their car? Tell us how to maximize the usage of the EMF rocks.

Justin Frandson (1:31:33.949)

Yes, so definitely on we have the full size grounding bag, which is about one pound bag of crystal. Then we have a mini grounding bag. That's about two to three ounces that you put in your purse, your pocket, or a kid's backpack for on the go protection. So I carry it in my pocket. I put my phone on the outside of it. So that's the best way to carry it. It's great for a purse. You can do the mobile Faraday bag with your phone in it. So if a woman's carrying a purse and they have it over their shoulder and their phone would essentially be resting about at their liver area. They could do one or both. They could have their phone inside of a mobile Faraday bag and that would be more of a shield protection. But then to create a coherence, they would have to do it through actually going on and to having a mini grounding bag with them as well.

Ashley James (1:32:35.431)

Okay, so it's good to have a mini grounding bag to carry around with you. What about in the car? Should we have one in the car? So what if they have an electric car?

Justin Frandson (1:32:48.037)

Yes. Seven grounding bags behind the drivers. Seven. It's just like clearing a 2000 square foot house. Yes, so I could literally write a dissertation on driving an electrical car and how bad it is for us and the environment and how much of a storytelling that they've hoodwinked us on. Hey, let's invent a vehicle that we want to reduce the usage of electricity. Let's say it's better for the environment, but you have to use more of that electrical grid to use the vehicle. Just right out of the gates, there's just zero merit behind it. And then we're using coal, cadmium, mining, precious minerals, using way more of the coal to manufacture them.

It doesn't get more efficient when you drive it. You get 18% lower testosterone. I mean, this whole concept behind an electric car is crazy. And the amount of wattages that it uses to charge the thing is extensive. So, I mean, I could go down and talk about this whole topic for literally hours. It's that bad of a deal.

Ashley James (1:34:01.317)

It’s like 12 years of pollution to make one car battery for an electric vehicle. The amount of mining that they have to do, it's just the pillaging the earth. And it's in these countries where there's child labor and the horrible pollution caused by everything they do to get the materials to make these cars. It's such a scam. 

I mean, I love the concept of like, oh, imagine a world where just clean energy, right. And I want that, I want clean energy. I'd love it if we lived a hundred percent off of, I don't know, bio-thermal or something like that didn't have any negative effects on us whatsoever on our health. And this isn't a political issue. I don't care if you're on the left or the right or the middle or up or down. I don't care what political spectrum, whether you're a flat earther or globe person or whatever, this is not about that there's global warming because I'm like, let's just not even go there because it's politicized on purpose to keep us all fighting amongst ourselves. We can agree on one thing, 100% of everyone listening could sit here and agree on one thing, pollution is not healthy for us.

Now, how do we go about diminishing toxic pollution in our air and our water and our soil? That's another thing. But manufacturing something that causes more pollution in order to make less pollution? It's not there yet.

Justin Frandson (1:35:37.677)

And you're left with all these batteries. I mean, what happens to the batteries? They just a flashlight battery, a power drill battery, they don't last for very many years. What about the solar batteries and panels and electric car batteries? They just filling up our landfills with acid with dead batteries. So you have all the waste on top of the toxicity from the mining.

But the worst part is it's so bad for our health, the sitting on that battery. You have all the new cars, it's seven computers in every car at least. So you have a lot of electricity. And then now you have all this dirty electricity from that massive battery covering across the entire floorboard. And then you have all the self-driving capabilities. 

So all the wireless, you have all three electricity, magnetic resonance, dirty electricity and wireless, all of those three at the highest level. And you're literally cooking yourself and families. And to your point about your friends not being able to sit in a car. I can't sit in an electric car. My body aches. There's too much resonance in there. But I can feel that. And these are the things that most people, unless you're sensitive, feel, our bodies, the sounds that they make, I mean, this is crazy. So when that thing's making noise, when it's going forward or reversing or charging, these are the noises that our bodies hear. And these sounds that our bodies hear, plants hear, pets and animals hear. Most humans can't hear that bandwidth. But when I go, I live in Laguna Beach, when I go into our cove, into the ocean and go underwater, frequencies, they travel so well underwater. You can hear them. So I can hear when there's a dolphin in our cove. I can hear when the whales are swimming by our cove. And when there's an electric foil board, Ashley, it's like noise pollution. It's like someone put it on a static radio station and turn the volume up when I go underwater. It's so crazy. 

And from Arthur Firstenberg's work, he's saying they want to have entire internet of things in the ocean to protect us from tsunamis or whatever. That would kill the entire marine life. So we got to really understand the ramifications of electrifying our atmosphere and our environment at the levels that we're doing. We're seeing a lot of people got really sick from it. And keep getting sick from every notch above it. And I feel it's directly correlated from all the work that all these incredible doctors that we've talked that have shared about the environment and us and how we're one with it. I go into a smoke-filled casino and I don't smoke. Like my body's going to say, hey, you're going to adapt to that. So that's essentially how our body works. When you get in these polluted environments, we adapt, but now there's only so much of this we can take. We're already connected. 

They don't need 5G in third world country. They don't even have electricity in remote areas in the oceans, mountains, deserts, forests, pristine areas, third world countries. They don't even have electricity. Why do they need full surveillance and 5G and all that? They don't. They're marketing to sell us stuff to track trace. I feel as well, and to make us sicker quicker. So these aren't always enhancing. There's so much benefit we can get from certain products of it. But I really want everyone to learn what the stressors are, develop proximity protocols to them, and then get grounded by nature and use technology, not let technology use us and get out of this meta universe, like everyone wants to have a smart device on the wrist and say, oh, I did so many steps or oh, I slept good or oh, it's time to eat or whatever or I got this great workout in. Listen to your body, connect to God and listen to your body and how it feels. You'll know so much more. I don't wear a watch. I know what time it is pretty much to the about 15 minutes. Like all day, every day, even when I wake up in the morning by looking outside. Like I know exactly what time it is. So listen to your body, get connected, and your vitality, your health, your performance, all of it will exponentially increase.

Ashley James (1:40:43.320)

I want to go back to the cause, you really quickly went over some major things. I want to go back to the pH changes. To hold a bag of rocks or tap a bag of rocks, something that many of us, I'm sure are kind of laughing at. I know the skeptic in me is like you're a good salesman. You figure out how to make me hold a bag of rocks. To hold a bag of rocks and have your pH change is phenomenal. pH is the measurement of the loose hydrogen molecules floating around, bombarding. So to have lower pH is a way of measuring like the lowered oxidative stress, right? We want to be slightly alkaline. We don't want to be slightly acidic because there's a big difference between the two. Cancer thrives and loves an environment in our body that's leaning towards the acidic side. The homeostasis is slightly on the alkaline side. And if you can do something without putting anything into your body to change your pH. I know with the Platinum Energy System Ionic Foot Spa, we do a pH of our saliva before and after, and all you're doing is drinking water, you're not eating anything, but it takes 30 minutes of that machine and it’ll make your pH go into healthy ranges from slightly acidic to slightly alkaline. That's like a 30 minute foot spa where it's removing heavy metals and lactic acid and other things from the body. And what I love about the bag of EMF rocks is it's not plugged into anything. It's not technology. It's literally what God made us. God made us this earth, here, have a bag of earth and I can feel it. I mean, I'm holding it and I can feel it. So tell us just a little bit more. Can you talk a bit more about the pH change?

Justin Frandson (1:42:55.310)

Yes, definitely. So let me talk about the tapping first. The tapping is huge because when you grab a homeopathic tincture, what do you typically do is they say, Hey, tap on it, activate it to activate the molecules inside of it. That's what you're doing with the grounding bags. When you grab it, you'll tap on it. You're going to start to wake up the properties in there. You could kind of squeeze it, tap on it.

And that'll excite the molecules in there to say, hey, naturally do what you're supposed to do and create a coherence. And when you create that coherence, what's going to change in your body are all the different marker changes at the cellular level. So when inflammation goes down, if your radicals go down, that acidity level will start to change because you get out of the sympathetic nervous system state. When you're in fight or flight, your acidities can be like acidic, like crazy. So when you get back into the parasympathetic, the rest digest, heal, that area where you can start to sleep and get in those restorative sleep, your body's more in a homeostasis. So the body's going to show that in the chemistry of it. It's directly correlated from the energy field of your body. You can't have chemistry without energy. So it's all from the environment. And so when you can get grounded by nature outside or tap on the bags, create that resonance inside, your body is going to adapt and then you're going to see less and less of the symptoms. You won't be as nervous. You won't be as anxious. You won't be as stressed. Like literally, it's such a great calming.

You made the comment that you want to just hug the bag the whole time. And that just really says that your body's wanting to ground a lot more. And that's the benefit of the product. It'll help ground. Now, some other more severe symptoms, like a non-trauma concussion symptom would be like level two EMF toxicity. So they would have nausea, vomiting and rashes on the skin, seizures of grind their teeth down to nothing. I've seen that with clients where their head of the bed has been on the other side of two smart meters. They live in a front and back end unit in CDM. One kid has seizures, the other one in the same room grind their teeth to nothing. It was unbelievable. And the mom's like, we're organic, we're holistic. How does this happen? I'm like, well, this kid is sleeping on the other side of two smart meters. So that's radiation. So anyhow, we got a look at that environment and how it affects our body.

Ashley James (1:45:48.211)

Yes, that's huge. And again, invisible. You can't see it. You can't see the EMF exposure and therefore you you just don't know how much you're being exposed to or how much it's affecting your day to day life until you do something like earthing and grounding and you go, holy crap, I can't believe it. Like, I can't believe my husband did not snore for the last few nights because we had a bag of rocks by his head. Like, I'm never not sleeping with this bag of rocks.

Justin Frandson (1:46:19.087)

Well, I can't claim that it helps with snoring. That's from what you guys, I'll take it, but that's news to us, and that's great. I think definitely getting into the more lucid dreams will really is what we see and hear a lot of and how when you're in such a deeper state, maybe the breathing's just easier, I guess. I don't know if that's happening.

Ashley James (1:46:51.163)

Yes. I don't know. He definitely said he was in much deeper sleep. And I thought that was really cool. Now he's the kind of guy that he's always out of bed before I am. He just bounces out of bed. He needs less hours of sleep seemingly than I do. But since we've had this bag, he slept deeper. He slept longer.

And I think he's getting more of the rest his body actually needs. That's really neat. And even the other day, I said, that's okay. I'll get up and start making breakfast. You stay in bed. And I don't think ever happened in 15 years of marriage. So, it's definitely calming his nervous system. Yes. That's right. You said, this helps to get us out of that fight or flight mode. Well, it's totally doing that with my husband and I've just noticed I'm more motivated, happy, like clear-headed more get up and go like pep in my step so that's that's how reducing the EMF and grounding myself with the this bag of rocks has done to me so I guess it affects you differently depending on how the EMF stress is affecting you, right? And how being ungrounded or having excess electrons, having that excess voltage in the body, how is it affecting you when you remove it, get back to your natural state?

How do you feel at your natural state? And right now I feel motivated, happy. My husband's more relaxed and sleeping better and not snoring because he goes into deep sleep. So it's so cool. Of course, the link to everything that we talked about today is going to be in the show. So today's podcast at Justin, is there anything you didn't get to say or anything you'd like to say to wrap up today's show?

Justin Frandson (1:48:43.215)

I'm just so grateful for you having me on Ashley. Thank you so much for your awareness and your voice to help so many. It's awesome. I want everyone to lean in on their healing journey to look to nature, to get grounded by nature. It's free. Go outside, touch a tree, get barefoot, jump into a body of water, get into nature, breathe that resonance, get in the sunlight. It's healthy for you. It's good for you. And when you're turn your electricity off at night, get a timer on the Wi-Fi router, if you have Wi-Fi. Hardwire is best, but if you have it, get it on it. Get an electrician to get a switch on your electrical panel to turn the electricity off in your bedroom at night when you're sleeping. So the resonance of your bedroom is as close to nature as possible.

That's what we want. That's what we want to bring into our home and our life. And when we can do that, everything's going to be so much better in your world.

Ashley James (1:49:51.963)

Love it, love it. Thank you so much for coming on the show. And if you have any more studies or results or science or anything more in the future you want to come back on and share, we'd love to have you back.

Justin Frandson (1:50:03.839)

Thank you, Ashley.

Ashley James (1:50:05.145)

I hope you enjoyed today's episode with Justin. 

It was amazing, the things we talked about and all those other episodes that I referenced. They'll also be linked in the show notes of today's podcast at, so you'll be able to jump into those show notes once this episode is on learntruehealthcom and you'll be able to listen to them as well. Remember to check out That's, not because EMF rocks, but we want to get rid of the EMF with the rocks. And you can use coupon code LTH to get the listener discount. Have yourself a fantastic rest of your day. 


Get Connected with Justin Frandson!




Dec 5, 2023

Check out the nano silver we discussed: - I got you a discount! Use coupon code LTH at checkout.
Get Keith's book for free:


514: Nano Silver: Nature’s Answer to Microbial Threats

Unlock the secrets of nano silver with Dr. Keith Moller and Ashley James, as they explore the groundbreaking impact of this tiny powerhouse on health and medicine. Prepare to have your misconceptions about silver shattered, as we reveal its true potential in everything from enhancing antibiotics to transforming dental surgeries into pain-free experiences.


  • History and Modern Uses of Silver 
  • Divine Help and Hard Work
  • Antimicrobial Gel for Body Odor 
  • Quality and Dosage of Silver Spray 
  • Nano Silver's Anti-Inflammatory and Antifungal Effects 
  • Silver Containment in Glass or Plastic 
  • Nano Silver Ingestion Study Results 
  • Nano Silver Safety in Mammals 
  • Comparing Silver Types for Effectiveness 


Hello True Health seekers and welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health podcast. I am so excited for you to hear this episode. This episode is going to save people's lives. This is how important it is. So I'm going to be really quick. Two websites that you got to know about. One is to get Dr Keith's book for free. Now you can buy a hard copy of his book if you wanted to, but he gave his book to the world. It is And then you can use the coupon code LTH at That's If you'd like to purchase the Nano Silver that he talks about today. It's phenomenal. I am so excited. So, without further ado, enjoy today's episode. 

Ashley James (00.45.502)

Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I'm your host, Ashley James. This is episode 514. 

I am so excited for today's guest. I've actually been waiting a really long time to interview Dr. Keith Moller, who was referred to me by Tim James. Tim James, I've had on the show before I've been on his show. It's been wonderful. There's not like someone out there judging and deciding who's the top and who's the second leading expert and who's the third leading expert. But Keith, I think you're up there probably right up there at the very top, a leading expert in not only understanding silver when it comes to medicine, but Nano Silver technology and utilizing it for health, for wound healing, for the immune system. You've been involved in over 400 studies and just specifically around this topic of using silver.

I am so excited to dive into this. I've been using silver, not Nano Silver, but I've been using like colloidal silver, for example, for myself for over 25 years and absolutely love it. And then when I heard that it was kind of trash in comparison to Nano Silver, and it's like a totally different thing in comparison to this far superior medicinally product that we can get and use for our immune health. I was intrigued.

But there's a lot of controversy. There's a lot of misconceptions. A lot of people, you know, saw the blue man on some kind of talk show 15, 20 years ago and decided that, silver was bad for us, that it's a heavy metal, that we shouldn't use it in medicine, or shouldn't use it to help to support our immune function. And of course, MDs like to poo poo anything that isn't a pharmaceutical drug. And so there's just been a lot of misinformation, but considering how many studies, and this is just widely studied, there's so much great information around this. I'm very excited to have you today so you can share with us the benefits of Nano Silver and how safe it is and how effective it is. So welcome to the show.

Dr. Keith Moeller (03:08.264)

Ashley, it's a pleasure to be with you. And yes, we can go over all those things. I have worked for decades with some of the top scientists in the world, MDs, DOs, naturopaths, all groups of people, dentists, really all over the world. 

And what I find is that if you have doctors and groups that like to study, silver is very highly regarded. If you have the old time boys that, I learned it this way, it's gotta be this way and I can't add anything to that, yes, you're going to get nowhere. But if you really want to know about silver and the different types of silver, right? I think when you said, well, colloidal silver is actually junk. Let's do it a little better. 

Let's say that silver is like a piano, right? And with colloidal silver, regular ionic colloidal silver, what you're doing is you're playing with about half the keys. So can it make music? Does it function? Will it kill bacteria? The answer is yes. But it's a lot like a guy who walked up to me and he quoted a phrase that I've seen written a bunch of places and from most of the people who don't know anything about silver, he came up to me and he said, hey, do you know that silver will kill 650 disease organisms? And I looked at him and I said, you don't know the question.

And he looked at me a little frustrated and he said, what do you mean? It's not a question, it's a statement. I said, no, you have to know the question. And he said, okay, what is the question? And he was looking at me, a little like I was trying to be arrogant. I wasn't, I was just trying to teach him something. And I said, well, it isn't that silver will kill 650 disease organisms. That's not the question. The question is at what level, over what time period, with what type of silver can you kill that organism? I said, once you know all of those things, you become really useful. Up to that point, you're just taking a crap shot at it, right? Oh, I have this, I'm going to try this and hopefully it works. That's not the way we do business.

When you're talking about the scientific world and you're working with big institutions, you have to have the background data. If you're going to be successful at something, let's say you're doing a wound care product, which we have, right? We just got approval of the gel in Canada and we'll go over more of that later. But if you are going to make a claim on that, that it's antimicrobial, which that Canadian approval says, it's an antimicrobial and use it for cots, burns and wounds. If it's going to be an antimicrobial and you're going to make a direct claim, for example, on killing MRSA, Methicillin Resistant Staph Aureus, you have to know at what level that product will inhibit the growth and what level it will actually kill it.

If you know that, you can design a product that will be successful. And if you don't know it, you may not design the product to be successful. So if you have all that background data, then you're highly useful. Then you can accomplish some amazing things. And silver is incredible. 

I just read an article that was in PubMed. It was called The History of Silver. I actually wrote it yesterday, and I read it again this morning for the fun of it. Other people read books and magazines and that sort of stuff. I like tests, so I read and study. It just gives me a great feeling, and it allows me to get up every morning knowing that I can do good, right?

And so in this, it said that silver had been used for six millennia to prevent infections. That's a history of medicine. It was written in like, what, 2008 at some PubMed. But the fact is, six millennia, we're talking about thousands of years over time, and originally way back before antibiotics and all of that, right?

Silver over the centuries has been used in medicine, as a medicine, eating utensils, plates, cups, food containers, jewelry, money, coins, clothes, building materials, wound care, and as a disinfectant. And now after the centuries, and now we're in the modern day and we are so much better than those past people, right? We have so much more knowledge. We have the internet.

We have access to all this stuff. Now that we have access to all that stuff, silver right now today is being used in medicine, in eating utensils, in plates, cups, food containers, jewelry, money, clothes. In fact, clothes have gone nuts. They're embedding it in all sorts of clothes for nurses and military people so it can eliminate infections. And in building materials. They make carpets out of electricity or out of silver. They put threads in there because in these big computer rooms, it pulls all the static out. Silver is the number one conductor of electrical and thermal energy. And that gives it huge things. But the funny part for me is everything they used it for in the past, now that our civilization is so uppity, we've come so far.

We're still using it for all the exact same things. Why? Because it works. And now we can add to it all electronics and solar panels. Every day, every person that's hearing this uses mass amounts of silver. It's in every connection of your car. It's in the amalgams that they put in the wires that hook the wires together to circuits.

It's an amalgam of silver and other stuff. They use silver because it is such a great conductor of electrical energy. And they think that that's why it has some incredible abilities in the body as well. But all the solar panels, right? Electric cars, the most expensive batteries are all made out of silver. They use lots of it. So almost everything you do every day in the modern world, you're using silver. And it's an industrial metal and they use mass amounts of it. So it's really interesting that people just don't know all the things they do with it. But over time, it's still the same. I mean, you're talking about Aristotle, 350 BC. It's reported and it was in Nature magazine, but it reported that 350 BC, Aristotle was telling Alexander the Great, if you want to keep your men safe, you got to use silver to help keep your water pure. And then at 400 BC, you have Hippocrates, right? I think I love Bill and Ted and their great adventure, they called them Hippocrates.

Right? Made me laugh. But Hippocrates, and I'm not even sure I'm pronouncing it correctly, but the fact is that 400 BC, he describes in writing the antimicrobial effects of silver. He didn't use the term antimicrobial, but he talked about the fact that it would work as an antimicrobial. So the point is, we've known for a long time. And for the last 20, 30 years, we all got away from silver, right? We're still using it everywhere, but medicinally with the advent of antibiotics, people stopped using it as much, right? Before then, actually one of my favorite ones was that in a PubMed history of silver from 2008.

In the conclusion, it says silver is the most important antimicrobial agent before the introduction of antibiotics. So over the millennia, silver has been the most important thing to help humanity control infections, disease, germs, those types of things. Right. And there are literally thousands of products right now.

Hundreds, at least hundreds that are FDA approved silver products for use all over in and around the body. Devices, right? So we're after a bunch of new approvals right now that are FDA approvals on a new product. And it'll be really fun. So hopefully within about six months, we can have another one and go through all of those new uses.

But those are some of the most important things that we can get a handle on in medicine in the US. But the funny part for me is that now antibiotics are starting to fail, right? They are having problems. And so what are people actually going back to? Silver.

Ashley James (14:08.969)

Herbs and yes, looking for natural remedies.

Dr. Keith Moeller (14:13.045)

Yes, so they use a lot of herbs. Do herbs work? Sure. Where do you think the medicine came from? Almost every single medicine was an herbal ingredient before. And then the scientific boys figured out how to synthesize that and make it so it just had that one effect. Usually, they added in a whole lot of bad effects with that. Right?

But they took away the natural part of that and they just use it. So they lost the natural portion of that, but every single one of those that I'm aware of is all from the base of a natural product. But even if you're talking about antibiotics as they exist, right? In nature, they talked about a guy named Collins and Collins was using silver with Antibiotics, right? As an adjuvant to antibiotics, as an immune support with the antibiotic treatment. And what he found was that silver could in fact make antibiotics, and the quote is, ten to a thousand times more effective. So now you have silver helping antibiotics to become more effective.

We actually had a partner do a study on using Nano Silver with nineteen different antibiotics, seven different pathogens. Those are bugs like E. coli and I think there was a yeast like Candida and Staph Aureus and some nasty bugs. Three of them were multi-drug resistant strength.

And what they did was add the silver to the antibiotics to see how it worked. And in fact, out of 96 tests, in 94 of those tests, the silver made the antibiotics more effective against the pathogen. It has the ability to help eliminate the problem of the antibiotic actually becoming less effective. 

Ashley James (16:34.231)

What about if they just did silver? What if they didn't do the antibiotics and they just did the silver?

Dr. Keith Moeller (16:38.837)

Well, that's a different thing. Can you just use the silver? Yes, you can. And, will it work? There's thousands of studies that shows that it does. I have been involved in a whole bunch of those. I've been involved in ones with Texas Tech School of Med. And they're peer reviewed published studies if somebody wants to see them, we can send the copies. But we did one in direct comparison to Betadine. So we used a Nano Silver gel and did a direct comparison to Betadine. And in that study, we found that Betadine, which is used all over in hospitals even today as a disinfectant on the skin before they do an operation, right, to help keep you from getting that infection.

They disinfect the area before they cut into you. And in this case, we showed the Betadine was actually not very effective, that there were a whole bunch of bugs that were resistant to it. And it took a long time to kill. 

In that study, which is peer-viewed and published and available in PubMed, it showed that the silver could eliminate all those bugs, do it within minutes. And then we did a study where we used the silver with the Betadine. So synergistically together, and it worked incredibly well. So could you use it without it? Yes. Do you think you could change the hospitals and all those guys over from using the Betadine?

Probably not. But the reason why we did that study is we said, look, we can possibly bring out a Betadine 2 and then add the silver to it so it becomes more effective. So you have two problems there. One is the effectivity and two is the perception of the people that are working in the medical industry. So how do you make them both happy? You combine those two and that's why we did the study apart from each other and also together. Cause we have a greater chance of actually getting that into the hospitals as a cleanser for the skin, if we add them both together, because then we say, look, this is an improved Betadine that's more effective. And then they'll all go, oh yes, okay, we're good with that. And they'll put it right in. So it's all about knowing how to get something done, right? And trying to help people. I mean, the fun part, Ashley, is what if you got up in the morning and you actually believed that you could change the medicinal history of the world?

Ashley James (19:48.490)

Oh, dream come true.

Dr. Keith Moeller (19:51.026)

Okay? I actually believe that my team and I can help change the medicinal history of the world. And we are. Every day we work towards that. And we've been able to do a whole bunch of stuff that is stunning. And we'll get more and more of that out as we go. But we actually believe we can change the medicinal history of the world.

And we know we're actually doing it. We have helped hundreds of thousands of people over the last two decades, and it's getting more fun. There it is, growing like a weed. And as we get more and more data, it just becomes that much stronger. So we're after a whole bunch of approvals, and those approvals will allow us to do more and more.

And what we see is we think that we're the intersection between the natural products industry and also major med. We believe we can satisfy both. We believe we can make products that meet spec with the natural market that don't have the whole list of nasty side effects, right? Those things on TV, man, they just kill me.

I'm watching this thing on TV and they'll say, hey, use this for your psoriasis, right? And I'm thinking, oh, that's pretty good. They helped that woman get rid of her psoriasis. And then comes on the thing. Okay, may cause you to be blind, impotent, give you diarrhea, and death. I'm thinking, what the heck? I think I'll hang out with the psoriasis, right?

Ashley James (21:48.670)

Right? They call it side effects, but it's not side effects, it's effects. We have to think about that. They like to use language to limit the intensity of it. That's very manipulative. So when you say, oh, may cause these side effects over here that probably wouldn't happen to you, but no, they're actually effects of the drugs. And some people have it worse than others, but you really need to take that into consideration. 

And then drug interactions also cause a whole list of other effects on the body, because these artificial man-made chemical compounds are designed to suppress, to alter, to manipulate the body. Whereas nature, like bringing in silver, it's a complimentary to our body. It's almost like evolution versus creation, right?

 If you believe in evolution, we evolved with this. We evolved over thousands of years with silver, right? Versus man-made drugs that like, definitely did not evolve with this. It's only very recently did they introduce this into our genetics, into our body. And so it's very foreign, right? And from the creation side, God created us to have silver, right? So both sides, we can show that nature

has the answers we need. So I'm on that camp. I'd rather go with the science behind Nano Silver and supporting the body, but these drugs out there, and they're constantly creating new drugs, and you really gotta be discerning and cautious when it comes to anything new on the market, because remember every single drug that was taken off the market for killing too many people

was first approved, right? So we have to just have that memory. 

My mom died from a drug that was approved and then taken off the market while she was in the hospital dying from that drug. So we have to remember.

Dr. Keith Moeller (23:53.128)

Yes, that's crazy. I do have an interesting thing for you. I think you'll like this story. But one day we had a bunch of meetings with some of the top quantum physicists on the planet. And they were having a big meeting in Boston and my father and I were invited. So we're at this meeting and we go through and we'll have some comments about that on another day, but it was a fun meeting.

But at breakfast that morning, my father looked at I believe was the top physicist in the world at that time. His name was Hans-Peter Juer, chairman of the Max Planck Institute in Germany. And my father looked at him and said, Hans. And he said, yes, he said, can I ask you a question?

And he said, sure, go ahead. My dad looked at him and said, do you, as a scientist, believe in God? And Hans looked at him and said, let me explain something to you. And my dad said, OK. He said, all things in the natural world degenerate to their lowest form.

it's the way of science and the world. He said all things degenerate. So he said, if we take steel, for example, we take iron oxide ore and we pressure treat it with heat, we can make it into fine steel. And he said, we've made that into fine steel, right? And then he said, it spends the rest of its existence trying to get back to be an iron oxide rust.

He said it degenerates to its lowest form, but he said, if you look at the Earth and the billions, not millions, billions of systems that all have to work in perfect sync to make this Earth function so we can exist here, he said something or someone is in charge and keeps the Earth functioning at its highest level.

So he said, you call that anything you want. I don't care if you call it God, I don't care. But he said something or someone is in charge and keeps your functioning at its highest level. All these systems stay in concert with each other. And he said, it's not a few. He said, there are billions of intricate systems that make it function. And I sat there and I thought, that is an incredibly brilliant assumption from a scientist, right? So, yes, I believe that we have divine help and I believe that if we search and work, and my dad had an interesting sign on his desk and I loved it and I take it to heart, I still think about it. And I believe I actually have that after he died, I got that sign. But what it says is all things come to he who wait as long as he works like hell while he wait. And I think that's true. That's why every day I get up, I study more, I get into new tests. I have stuff going right now with scientists all over the planet. And it's way fun. I'm working with the dental group. And in the last 16 years, using a silver nano liquid, a 32 PPM liquid and a 32 PPM gel, we have completed more than 50,000 test procedures on people in the dental industry using silver in almost every one of the protocols. So the 50,000 are all protocols that use the silver.

So there are hundreds of dentists right now using these protocols that were developed by this group. And it's stunning because they're getting heal rates of half the normal time. You can pull wisdom teeth, use these protocols that they're doing in these clinical trials, and you have no squirrel cheeks, no pain, no inflammation by the next day. So yes, no dry socket, none.

No secondary infection.

Ashley James (27:47.376)

What about healing from early stage cavities instead of needing to drill or anything like that? Have they had any success with reversing cavities?

Dr. Keith Moeller (28:56.382)

Okay, so the answer is I don't know. I never make up anything, so if I don't know, I'll just say I don't know, I've never tested that. But I did do a paper with a whole bunch of really bright people. I found that if I surround myself with really bright people, great things happen. And so there were a whole group of scientists and myself.

I'm probably the least of those, but I'm lucky to be smart enough to be in those groups. But we did a peer-view published study with Texas Tech School of Med on biofilms in the mouth. And we were able to create a product that could eliminate biofilms. So literally, you brush your teeth at night, you spit it out, but you don't wash it out, you leave it in. Next day, you wake up in the morning, you give her a big kiss and you say, baby, welcome to this world because there's no biofilms, no growth in your mouth. And now they've hooked those biofilms in the mouth to Alzheimer's and to endocarditis and all sorts of other problems. So if we can eliminate that, which we believe we can't and we're in the middle of doing, as we get more and more of that information, we'll be able to save or help save all of those lives.

And it's not like, we're saying, hey, we've done 20 of these, right? So far, we're talking about more than 50,000 dental procedures over a period of probably 18 years. So when we talk about that, do we know what we're talking about? Yes, I'm feeling pretty confident that we're pretty good at that. 

Ashley James (30:43.796)

I have a holistic dentist I go to and he was really excited to teach me about the biofilm of the mouth and not like the regular dentists don't do that. I think everyone needs to just fire their dentist and go find a holistic dentist that uses Nano Silver. My dentist uses homeopathy, he banned fluoride in his clinic, like just really cool stuff.

But the first thing he does when you get into his chair is he scrapes your tooth, puts it on a slide, and puts it on a microscope, and it beams onto a monitor that you can see right in front of you. And you can see all the bacteria that are crawling around in your mouth, and there's  spirochetes and weird things like little squirrely things, and they're all swimming around. 

And then he proceeds to point to each one and explain, okay, this is a healthy bacteria and then, but all these other ones are causing heart disease, dementia and eating away at your skull. It actually causes not only gum disease and gums to recede, the recession of the gums is because they get into the bone and they break down the bone and now you're losing bone as well. It's almost like causing osteoporosis over time.

And if you have dental implants, it's eating away around the bone of the dental implant and it's just disgusting. It's horrible. And that is the biggest motivator.

Dr. Keith Moeller (32:15.490)

So now, if you put that implant in there and use the silver and eliminate the bacteria around that implant, you can now do it so, and let me give you a fun one that I did, right? So we got a call, this dentist and I, from Medical Innovations, PBS. And they said, we heard you are doing this.

And this dentist said, yes, we do that every day all day long. Thousands of those. And they said, well, we would like to film it. We want to see this. And so they brought in a producer. And the guy was a karate expert and had broken all of his teeth. This guy had one of the nastiest I'd ever seen. But they went into a place called LVI, Las Vegas Institute. And the guy in charge of all the operatories for that was a guy named Leo Milan. Incredible implant dentist, right? But he had a ton of experience using our silver in these implants. And he was teamed up with the King Poo Ba of using silver in the dental industry. That's a guy named Andrew Willoughby. And he's out of Canada.

And so Andrew and I and Leo were on this. So they took this producer and they did thirteen implants in one day. Thirteen in one day. And they used all the silver products in that. Day two, no pain, no discomfort, no squirrel cheeks, no inflammation.

So, we actually have been utilizing a Nano Silver serum, and we'll talk about that on a later day, in the bone grafts instead of using saline. And we're getting heal rates of about 20% of the normal time. They're getting bone reformation, and these are clinical trials that are ongoing. And if somebody wants to see them and they ask for them, we can show them a copy, but in this case, we had bone formation reformed and most of the skin, about 80, probably 84 to 90% of the skin, regrown in this clinical trial, regrown actually in five days compared with the average of 30 days. So peer-reviewed type information that's being created and published. We actually published a whole bunch of that data in the one of the top wound care. It's called the Bible of Wound Care. It's out of Springer and they came to us and they said, we want to write a section on using silver in wound care. And they said, we've been over it all this time and we want you guys to do it and there was about six or seven of us, doctors out of India, doctors out of the US, and me and also one of my sons who's also a naturopathic doc. And so we wrote this whole section and we added in there all the dental information. So it is published in the Wound Care Bible. So we actually wrote, I think, 42 pages on the use of silver in wound care, how it's used and we gave all the case studies, right? 

One of those was a horse and they were going to kill this horse because a cougar or something had got it and ripped off a chunk of skin. And the piece was triangular in shape, but it was like a foot by a foot. So it's a huge chunk and all you can see is the meat of this horse's derriere. And they said, look, it's winter, we can't bandage it. It's infected, we're going to have to kill it. And I said, no, what I want you to do is just gel it once a day, every day with the Nano Silver gel. And they said, okay, we really like the horse. It's a family pet, we'll try it. And within three weeks, we had a layer of new epithelialization, a skin layer over the top of that. And then over a period of about four months, that entire piece of flesh re-grew, including the hair with no scarring. We're able to regenerate all of that tissue using just a Nano Silver gel.

And Canada just approved it for wound care, cuts, burns, wounds, right? But they also approved it for skin infections and skin affections. Skin affections is really interesting because that includes stuff like acne and eczema. Those are skin affections. And so in that, we got a direct approval from Canada on that 32 PPM gel to make direct claims, antimicrobial claims, right? Kills these bugs. And we're after those currently in the US, but it's not approved in the US.

So, right now on that gel product, we say it helps promote natural healing. And does it do that? Yes, it does it in a huge way. It cools, it soothes, it helps remove the irritation, it kills the odor-causing bacteria. So if you have a kid in sports, and I was always involved in sports, basically I love anything that's outside, right? As long as you can do it outside, usually you can count me in. But these kids, they come in and all of a sudden, they pull their shoes off, your eyes roll back in your head, right?

And you think that has got to be the most horrible smell I've ever smelled in my entire life. It smells like you've been wearing dead cats. And they're not, they've been dead for weeks, right? And you think, oh my gosh. So then you just take, you put some of this gel on there, wait a few minutes, and you can let him back in the house.

There's literally no problem. And so helps eliminate odor-causing bacteria. Yes, it's true.

Ashley James (39:38.811)

Could you put it on your underarms and use it as a deodorant?

Dr. Keith Moeller (39:47.153)

Yes, you can. The only problem with that is that it will wash out after a while because of all the sweating. So in surgical hand scrub studies that I did back when at my old company, before we formed the new one, we had done surgical hand scrub studies on a gel and found that we could help keep the skin fully antimicrobial for about four hours. So it works really well. You would just have to apply it a few times a day. It wouldn't stop the sweating. It would just help eliminate the odor, right?

Ashley James (40:30.685)

I love your stories and I could listen to you for hours and I definitely want to have you back on the show because I know there's so much we could talk about. But right now I'm going to dive into some questions. I've been using colloidal silver since probably late teens. I used to go to the health food store. I've always been crunchy. I've always been like a health nut.

And I loved going to the health food store. It just smells like herbs and musky. And you can't find those places anymore, like they're few and far between now that big box stores around, but I loved going in there and they had a huge book. It was like the Bible of Nutrition, massive book, and you could flip through it to find remedies because they were like the staff were a little bit cautious about telling you what to take but the owner was great and I remember going in there with the science infection I'm like listen, I don't want to be on another course of antibiotics like what should I do and she led me to the colloidal silver nasal spray and the Olbas essential oil blend told me about dropping the Olbas into hot water and breathing it in and that's going to really clear everything out and that's the essential oils are wonderful for that. And then you're going to take after you blow all the stuff out of your nose. You're going to take the colloidal silver nasal spray, and you're going to spray it up your nostril as much as you can while you're breathing in, and then do it to the other nostril and do it as many times a day as you can. And I blew out that sinus infection, and ever since then, it's been my go-to. 

I always have this colloidal silver nasal spray in the house. Not that I don't get many infections now that I eat so clean, but back then, I can't imagine how many times I was able to avoid antibiotics because at the first sign of a head cold, I ran to the colloidal silver nasal spray. So I've always loved it, but when you early on in this interview, you brought up the question, right? And the question is also, what's the quality of your silver? Because you brought up that there's different types of silver, and I want to get into that. And you brought up like dosage and timing. 

So, what quality of silver do you have? How many sprays would you do? How many times a day would you do it? And we don't know those answers. It is shot in the dark. Am I going to spray it once a day in my nose? Am I going to spray it ten times a day? What what is it going to take to kill that microbe and it depends on what the microbe is right and how prolific if I go at stage of the infection is so there's so many variables-

Dr. Keith Moeller (43:11.394)

Okay, so let's talk just a second about different types of silver. There's dozens of different types, but we're going to talk about the three main ones, right? So you have a colloidal silver, what's called colloidal silver, and about 94% silver hydrosols, structured silver. These are ones that are actually ionic forms of silver.

One of them calls himself a silver hydrosol, right? Hydro means water, sol means particle. It means literally nothing, but it sounds cool. So if you look at ionic forms of colloidal silver, they do have the ability to eliminate bacteria, okay? The only problem with regular colloidal silver is that there are two major studies out. I can send you both of them if you'd like.

But both of them showed that regular colloidal silver, one, has no ability to eliminate a virus or neutralize a virus, depending if you want to argue whether it's alive or not. It has no ability to eliminate a yeast, and it will start to kill probiotic bacteria at about 2.5 PPM.

So at 2.5, if you're drinking it and it's diluted and it's still at a level of 2.5 in your gut, yes, it can kill probiotic bacteria. Now that's not mine. That study was done by the USNIH and that study was done by like 20 doctors and other guys, but it was the USNIH that did that study. And they tested a number of colloidal silver.

And so that's not me. I don't go with the little argument thing. I'm the guy that says, look, don't give me the BS. Just show me the data. And if you can show me the data, then we'll talk. If you can't show me the data, then don't spew out BS, right? Know what you're talking about or don't waste the time. So in this case, this study says that it has colloidal silver in the form of bionic colloidal silver, which is 90% of what's on the market. Those would include the silver hydrosols, the structured silver. Those ones, like I said, they're playing on a piano and do they work? Yes. Can they help? Absolutely. Do they work at the highest level? No, they do not. They do not have all the keys. You're limited to about half the piano. 

One of the big interesting ones that just came out, and there's a reason why people want to read this new study, but there's a big study that came out, I believe, last December. And that study came out of University of Florida, University of Tennessee, and the University a big one in Canada. And what they found was that colloidal silver or ionic form of silver had no ability to reduce an inflammation, which I always thought that all silver would reduce inflammation. But in this study from six different institutions, eight different PhDs, it showed that Nano Silver actually could eliminate virus and had a very pronounced anti-inflammatory effect where ionic or regular colloidal silver did not. Also, it went into some other areas that we won't go into but let's just say that the paper is produced to show that people in hospitals could actually use Nano Silver to eliminate a major problem that existed in the last few years and still exist, least to a certain extent, still making people's lives miserable. We won't talk about the name of that.

Ashley James (47:43.294)

I think, start to the scene, picking up what you're putting down. Yes. Got it.

Dr. Keith Moeller (47:47.231)

But if you want a copy of it, it's all independent information. It's from eight different PhDs and doctors, six different institutions in both the US and Canada. And it was just a great paper. I read it and I thought, this is like Christmas. I would give these guys a big old kiss if they were here. Not that they would be enthused about that, but it was like Christmas for me because the information they provided was stunning. But one of the big things they said in there, and you could read it, was that Nano Silver could help, and we're saying help, could help eliminate fungal sinus infections.

Now a yeast is just a single cell fungus, right? And one of the nastiest of all the ones that have now dropped into the US is a bug called Candida Auris, A-U-R-I-S. It's probably the most deadly fungus that's hit the world in a long time, but it's spreading. In fact, I think one of the big internet

television groups have a show on it right now, a fungus that wipes out mankind. But this fungus is called Candida Auris, and it's a yeast, right? Which is a single cell fungus. And what they found was that all three major antifungal drugs can't touch it, and don't even inhibit its growth. And yet, Nano Silver, and I have direct data on this, Nano Silver can eliminate it and do it in minutes. I mean, minutes. So I think that what we do is we call it a first line of protection, right? And colloidal silver, does it work? If that's all I had, would I use it? For sure. But again, you're playing with half the keys. So when you go to Nano Silver and there's mass amounts of information and I'm talking, I have one study that is out of Romania. And that study is actually a summary of 430 major studies on Nano Silver that are all peer reviewed and published. And it covers five major areas. And one of them is a hot topic with the FDA. So we won't touch that one. But the other ones were wound care, antimicrobial action, antiviral action. And the other one, well, there's one on there that we won't talk about at the moment. We'll talk about it maybe off air, but the other one was biotissue engineering. That silver has been used in all these things for biotissue engineering. Engineering new things that you could add in. Imagine a skin graft that would heal twice as fast and not be problematic, have less scarring, all of that stuff. Can we do that? Yes, we can. The information and abilities are already here. And I'm actually after that approval right now with the FDA for diabetic culture, septic culture, skin tears, venous taste assaults, or surgical wounds, grafted sites, and device insertion sites.

So we're after those approvals right now and hopefully in the next six months, they'll give us that and we'll be able to add a whole bunch of new keys to that piano and we'll have a much more fun conversation about the data we're producing on those. But at the moment, we're talking about ionic colloidal silver. So it has a few of the keys. Is it bad? No. Is it great? No. Nano Silver is way ahead and there's a lot of different types of Nano Silver. The one that we like actually is a super hybrid of a Nano Silver and it has a coating on the outside. The coating is an AG404. It's a multi-valent silver oxide coating and what that does is it means that it has abilities that no other silver particle has. So regular silver works, the colloidal silver, the history, the 101, right? Now we're talking about base, how does silver function? So silver, if it oxidizes, loses an electron, it wants it back. So by missing one electron gives it a plus one charge.

And so if it comes up against a bacteria yeast, something like that, depending on what type of form it is, but let's say bacteria, comes up against a bacteria, it can steal one electron out of that cell wall. And then it's happy, it's done. So normal silver, like the colloidal silvers that you're used to, are a single shot. They're one and done. They steal each silver ion, steals one electron, and then it's happy in its state. It doesn't, there's no more use to it. So you have to have lots of it to make it function.

One of the studies we did for the FDA was actually a direct comparison between a 32 PPM gel and a 10,000 PPM ionic product that's used in all the burn care units across the US. And we did the direct comparison on that gel for the FDA. We did that against MRSA, the Methicillin Resistant Staph Aureus. So it was David and Goliath, but we had to have a direct comparison with a drug that was already approved to get the approvals we're after. And so it was 32 PPM gel versus 10,000 PPM cream.

And the 10,000 PPM took more than five hours to kill the MRSA bacteria in that study for the FDA. The silver gel, 32 PPM gel, had eliminated all of it at the first time check, which was 30 minutes. And we know with further testing, it's about 10 to 15 minutes. But it was 10 times faster than a product that had 300 times actually, I guess to be, if somebody wants to argue with me, 312 times more of the active ingredient. 300 times more and yet this 32 PPM, David just slaughtered Goliath, right? Much more effective. And why is that Nano Silver more effective? Because it has multiple modes of action. Instead of being able to steal one electron, and being done, each one of these little nanoparticles, and they're five to seven nanometers in size, each one of these particles can first steal eight electrons, each one of these. And there's thousands of these molecules of the AG404 around the silver particle. So it can, each one of those thousands can steal eight then it pulls it into the core and it can do it again and again and again. So it's like a self-loading machine gun where everybody else has a single shot. Second thing we found, and it was actually found by a professor named Rustam Roy, right? And Hans-Peter Dürer, that's where I met him. And they were having a conversation. We were talking about work we had done on bubonic plague. It's a bacteria called White Pestis. And people got it from fleas back in the dark ages and it killed millions of people, right? Black plague. And it's a bacteria called White Pestis. And we had done some work on that bug and found that we could eliminate like 2 billion of them. And we could do that in like two minutes. And so I'm sitting there with some of the top scientists in the world and they're discussing it. And their ability to do math in their head was just stunning to me. So I'm sitting there, I'm a pretty young kid, and I'm with these guys. And I'm listening to this conversation. And one of them was saying, look, you have this size of particles, so it means you have this many particles. And it's impossible for those to come in contact with this many bacteria in this amount of time. It can't work. And I just should have shut up, right? I just should have shut up and listened. But I said, but it did. And Rustem Roy leans over, puts his arm around me like a kindly grandpa. And he looks at me and says, Keith, we know it did. You did the test in triplicate. We know it worked. What we're trying to do is figure out how it works and why it worked. We know that it worked, but it's impossible to do what it's doing with what we know. So there's gotta be another mode of action. And then they came back and he said, okay, we're going to put it on a Raman spectrum and a whole bunch of stuff. Long story short, and translating all the science into English, what they found is that this particle actually is embedded with the resonant frequency. The frequency is the same as ultraviolet light.

890 to 910 terahertz. So it can eliminate pathogens in water that it doesn't even touch. And interesting enough, it doesn't hurt human tissue. So there's no negative action on human tissue or cell. None. No cytotoxicity at all. And we have test work showing up to 40 PPM. It won't kill probiotics.

And so in this, Rustem Roy looks at it and he says, we got to figure out what it is. And then a couple of years later, they published a big paper on it and said, okay, we found that this particle works, but we think it's bio-effectivity is because of the fact that it has both this resonant frequency that it emits, and also it has this code on the outside, a superoxide.

So it's not an ionic, it's a superoxide. And the superoxide makes it so it functions like a catalytic converter in your car, right? Your catalytic converter in your car eliminates problem gasses. And you don't have to go in there and refill it. It doesn't wear out, it's automatic. Because that metal, in this case platinum, is in there, when the gasses go through it, the platinum eliminates the toxic part of that. Well, silver does the same thing, but in this case, by luck or by let's call it a gift. By gift, this particle that we created way back when my father and a bunch of other guys, they created this particle.

I believe it was a gift. And we're still figuring out now all the things that we can do with this. So this is a Nano Silver, has more abilities, has a full piano key. And we still are adding new keys to that piano all the time as we work on it. And as we talked about, through this time period and several different companies.

I've been involved in more than 400 major studies and test series, all on this technology directly. So do we know more about silver than just about anybody else? Yes, we do. Is it because we're smarter? No. It's just that we've done more work, so we have more answers. Another one that you'll find interesting is people always argue, and I think it's really funny, they argue about whether silver should be in glass or plastic, right? And you have the old boys all saying, oh no, it has to be in glass. Well, if you actually know anything about glass, that's a bad choice. Because the silver particle we talked about has a positive charge.

If you look up glass, you find that glass has a negative charge. So what happens, and it's not a strong one, it takes time for it to do it, but glass will actually pull silver, or can pull silver out of suspension, where a food grade PET, a high grade plastic, won't. So I had a fun time way back when in my old company, where I first started.

I was working on it and I thought, okay, I have this product that I put on my floor 16 years ago. Liquid, right? Sitting on the floor in a PET food grade plastic bottle, been sitting on my floor by the window, hot and cold for 16 years. I pulled it out, had it tested for microbial abilities on yeast and bacteria, E. coli and Candida and it eliminated them at the same level as it did the first time I'd tested them. Almost exactly the same. There was literally no significant difference. And it had been sitting on the floor in a food grade plastic bottle for 16 years.

So it's highly stable, much more stable. I had a guy I was talking to, he said, I have a great silver. And I said, that's fantastic. He said, but, he said, I have to use it quickly. And I said, why is that? He said, because it falls out of suspension in like three weeks. And I said, I have news for you. You do not have a good silver. It's not a good product. It's highly unstable.

And that brings up the third type of silver. So you have the Nano Silver, we talked about that. You have the ionic silver and silver hydrosols. And then you have these silvers that have tons of silver in them, right? You find one and some guy will say, well, mine's better because it has 5,000 PPM in it, or it has 500 or 250, right? They'll say it's much better because it has more and more is always better, right?

Well, we answered that question with the test we did for the FDA, right, that we already talked about. More is not better. Effectivity is dependent on the type of silver. So what happens with these products is that they're ionic forms of silver. And ionic forms of silver are inherently not stable. They fall out of solution. And so what happens is somewhere way back when somebody said, look, I wonder what would happen if we bound that to a protein. So they bind it to a protein. It's kind of like your mom who used to make jam, right? She'd put in Knox gelatin, which is a protein, into the juice and make jam out of it. And it'd make it stable and keep it suspended. And it wouldn't go bad. This is the same thing. So they bind the protein to the silver ion and then it mucks up the silver's ability to function, but it makes it stable. And so you have to have a ton of silver in there to make it useful. And again, you're talking about antibacterial, not anti-yeast, not antiviral. You're talking about antibacterial effects, but you have to have a lot of it because you've mucked up its ability to function because you added the protein to it, and now it's bound up in that particle. The interesting part is we found with this nanoparticle with the AG404 coating, we found that it was semi-bound to the water molecule. And so we could boil it, we could freeze it, and it would remain suspended. That's why we can make tons of products that nobody else can make. Because if their products get boiled or frozen, they fall apart. Ours does not. It stays suspended. So we have the ability to make gels and other products that literally nobody else can make. And we can do that because this particle is so incredibly stable. I mean, somebody came up to me and said, why would I have silver in my house, right? Why do I want to buy it? I said, well, let me ask you a question. 

I said, there's nobody more important to me than my family and friends, right? We all just went through a major problem. I said, what do you have in your house right now that you can use as a first line of defense? I said, last time it happened, and I think it's going to happen again, I think it's going to be worse. But I said, last time it happened, we know that the hospitals were overrun. It was hard to get in. We know that a lot of medications were no longer available because the plants in China had shut down or they weren't shipping them or they weren't allowing them to be shipped in because the containers were contaminated with the virus. So I said, what do you have in your house right now as a first line defense? I said, if you have to go to the doctor, you go, right? But what if you can't get in there? I said, I can't bear looking at my family and not having at least something that I can try to help all the different situations with.

Ashley James (01:07:31.751)

That's natural. It doesn't have side effects. It's shelf stable.

Dr. Keith Moeller (01:07:36.288)

Exactly. And he looked at me and he said, Oh, I see your point. I said, yes, the liquid lasts a long time. I said, the gel, you're good for three and a half, four years. I said, so you'll use them up, you rotate them. There's thousands of you. So I use that gel every time I go shopping. I just put some on my hands as a first line of defense.

Put my hands in my face. I have people that gel their whole kid before they send them to school. We were involved with ingested and injected studies up to 5,000 milligrams per kilogram showing that the gel had no negative effect. It's not cytotoxic, won't hurt probiotics, but it has the ability to do some really great things. It makes your skin intensely soft, it's cooling.

If you get something like your skin starts to itch and you put it on there, it just soothes that in a flash, a few minutes. So as a first line defense, those two products I think are probably the two biggest that I have all over in my house. And I have to constantly refill them because people are always coming by and pilfering them out of my house.

They found that shopping at my house was a lot cheaper than shopping elsewhere. And so I have to restock it. But the fact is, it gives me and my family a first line of defense, right? And some people say, well, I didn't know how to use it. I said, okay, so for my doctoral thesis, and I freely admit, I had out from probably 2000 doctors, MDs, DOs, naturopaths.

And we came up with about 100 protocols for exactly how to use silver. It's a general use book. Doesn't talk about any specific silver. Doesn't talk about any product name or anything like that. And so I wrote it for my doctoral thesis. And then after I got my doctorate, I converted it, made it into a book. I sold thousands of copies. And then I thought, I don't need to make money on this. What I want is people to have access to the data. So if somebody wants to use it for something, let's say you have an eye infection or an ear infection and they have a certain product, whatever that product is, how would I use that, right? What do I need to do to know something about how to do that? So in the first part of this book, I put in all the information or a whole lot of information on the different types of silver, what they are, how they are, how they function. And then the last two thirds of the book is who's who list A to Z of about a hundred problems that a family can have, including emergency water purification and hard data as to how much you would use over what time period to accomplish what it is you're trying to do. 

And then I thought, okay, so how do I make this available to people for free? So I put it on a site, the and there's no names on it, no product names, no nothing. It's just a book to help people understand what and how they should do to help give their families a first line of defense. Gives you about a hundred different ways to utilize the products or silver products in general. So it's there, it's free, And you know, Ashley, if anybody has questions, I'm happy to answer them. The FDA came up with the rule and they actually wrote it and I memorized it. If you go to

It says that if somebody has an off-label question for a product, you can answer it, but you have to do it on an individual basis. You can't do it in a big group, right? So if somebody asks us, you and I, on an individual basis, for an answer to a question they have about silver, they can just ask us. There's about a 99.9% chance my team and I can answer that question. And we're happy to do it. If I don't know, I won't make up gibberish. I'll just say, I don't know. And if I do know, I will not only answer it, but I'll put the report on there so that you know where the data came from.

Ashley James (01:12:38.959)

So I have a Facebook group for my listeners, a Learn to Health Facebook group, and I could ask them, what are your questions? Like after listening to this episode, it was there, do you have a question that wasn't discussed? What's your question? I could collect all their questions anonymously, and the next time I interview you, we'll be able to voice their questions and discuss them.

Does that sound like something we could do?

Dr. Keith Moeller (01:13:09.507)

For sure. And as long as they're not asking me cure questions, which I can answer in private, we can answer those. There's one other study before we finished. There's one more that we have to talk about because it's very apropos right now. And we didn't do the study. It wasn't done by us. It was done in three different countries. And it is so cool. But what these guys did was they got 231 frontline doctors in the middle of COVID and they did a study. So 231 doctors. The control group was 117 of those doctors and the treatment group or the group that was doing the testing was 114. Now, these are doctors that are in the hospital treating people with COVID every single day, right?

And we can talk about this one because it's not an FDA claim, it's not a treatment claim. What they did was they rinsed out their sinuses, nasal rinse, with the Nano Silver, just like you were talking about doing earlier, right? You washed out your sinuses, you squirted it in there, you washed out your sinuses. So they were using the Nano Silver, they washed out their sinuses, and they gargled with it. Doesn't say they swallowed it, just says they gargled with it.

Now, the amazing part is that out of the 117 who did not use the Nano Silver, right? Did not. 33 of them got COVID, 28%. Okay? Of the ones who didn't use it as a treatment, but just use Nano Silver as a nasal rinse and a gargle, two got COVID, 1.8%. So was it perfect?

It was not. I haven't found anything that was perfect. Was it incredibly good? Yes, 1.8% compared to 28%, right? If somebody wants a copy, I'll give it to you. You can post it on your site, cause it's not a claim. It's an independent study on Nano Silver, and it was done in three different countries. So multi-centered, great, human clinical trial all with frontline doctors. So as a nasal rinse, I think there is nothing better at this time than the Nano Silver liquid to just rinse out your sinuses, not an FDA claim. Just rinse it out and help keep yourself on the open up.

Ashley James (01:15:54.265)

So, obviously they were doing it preventively. They didn't wait to get sick. How many times a day did they do it?

Dr. Keith Moeller (01:15:59.541)

Okay, so I believe it was twice. I'm trying to remember, but I believe it was twice a day.

Ashley James (01:16:06.077)

Yes, that makes sense. So like before you leave the house, it takes you 30 seconds, spray it up your nose and slosh with it and then go about your day, come back home from work or school or wherever you've been out in the world, do it again. 

Dr. Keith Moeller (01:16:20.883)

And do it before you go to bed. Yes, do it before you go to bed so that nothing has a chance to grow overnight. Just rinse it out, wash it out, right? And can you do that with all your kids? Yes, will it hurt them? It will not.

Ashley James (01:16:35.419)

Oh, it doesn't sting?

Dr. Keith Moeller (01:16:37.095)

It has no stinging, unless you're infected, it has no sort of stinging, nope. So let me give you another little piece of info. So a guy comes up to me and he says, look, he says, I will use silver outside my body, but I won't use it internally because it's a heavy metal. Do we have a little more time?

Ashley James (01:17:01.171)

We have as much time as you have. I'd be here for four hours if you want to be. I'm on the edge of my seat. My jaw's on the floor. I know my listeners are loving this. Let's dive in. As long as you have, as long time as you have, I'm here.

Dr. Keith Moeller (01:17:17.307)

Okay, well, I don't want to go forever, but I can go for hours and hours and hours, but we'll keep it down to a couple, right? Okay, so this doctor comes up to me and he's an MD and he says, I won't use it internally. And I said, why not? And he said, because silver is a heavy metal. I said, silver is not a heavy metal. He said, silver is a heavy metal. I said, not a heavy metal. He said, no, silver is a heavy metal. I said, look, we can keep arguing all day long, or we can go to a referee. He said, who do you suggest? I said, not who, but what? He said, okay, what do you suggest as a referee? I said, the Merck Manual, M-E-R-C-K. And I said, the Merck Manual is kind of like the Bible of Science and Technology. He said, I know the book, I'm aware of it, everybody in medicine knows the Merck Manual. I said, okay, would you accept that?

And he said, I would. I said, great, you just lost. He said, what do you mean? I said, if you go to the 17th edition, you go to page 1880, I said, second paragraph, table 226-1, it will give you a list of all the heavy metals that cause nephrotoxicity or heavy metal poisoning. And I said, silver's not one of them. I said, interesting enough, copper is. Interesting enough, iron is. Salt is a heavy metal and can build up and damage your kidneys. 

Nephrotoxicity means that it's toxic to your kidneys, right? Over a time period, it can build up and damage your kidneys. That's what heavy metals. Everybody knows mercury is one and lead is one. Most people don't know that Pepto Bismol  is one, right? It's a heavy metal. Can build up in your system. 

So he said, I'm not winning this. I said, no, you already lost. I said, if you want to go to the 18th edition of the Merck Manual, the newest one, it's page 2022, again, second paragraph. I said, it'll give you a full list. I said, many doctors think that silver is because of silver nitrate. Silver nitrate started being used in the late 1800s to cure stuff like typhoid and anthrax and stuff like that.

They found that silver nitrate was one of the few things on the planet that could eliminate those pathogens. But silver nitrate is in fact included as a heavy metal. It's not because of the silver, it's actually because of the salt, the nitrate. So silver is not a heavy metal. There's no nephrotoxicity. It doesn't damage your kidneys. And the only problem people have with silver

is actually, if you consume huge amounts of it over a very long period of time, and it's ionic form, you can get what's called Argeria. Argeria is the blue man effect, right? The blue man effect is where you drink so much silver that your body can't get rid of it fast enough. And so to get rid of it, it's non-toxic.

To get rid of it, your body walls it off in your skin cells. And then when you get in the sun, you tarnish like your grandma's old silver teapot. And you're turned blue. And you're blue forever. It's a permanent thing. Is it easy to get? No, you really have to work at it. It takes a lot. So I wrote the paper and it'll be published shortly.

But I wrote with a whole bunch of other doctors a paper on Nigeria. And the data, if you look at, one of the questions is people ask, how much can I safely take every day, right? How much can I drink? Every day for my entire life. The EPA put out a document and I memorized all this stuff, right? It's turning, I lose names in a flash, but I can remember info page and paragraph and I don't know, it's a gift. We'll just be happy that I have that portion of it, right? But the EPA put out a document called the RED Document, Registration Eligibility Document for Silver. On the second page, on the fourth paragraph, it states that the EPA, and this is by, actually by Interveneous Action, it's about four or five times this level, if you're talking about ingestion.

But in this intervaneous action, it says that you can safely consume 0.005 milligrams per kilogram of body weight a day, every day for your whole life. So if we translate that into English, what it means is that the average sized adult could safely consume about an ounce a day of a 10 PPM silver product of any type and have that being deemed completely safe for every day of their entire life. So about an ounce a day is what they have. Now remember this is not a toxic level, this is the amount that they deem completely safe, right? So an ounce a day every day for your entire life you're good to go. You can never get Argeria. Now let's push it a little farther.

There's a peer-review publication from Rustam Roy, a man of Penn State, number one material science lab in the world. And in that paper, he explains that you cannot get Argeria from Nano Silver. 

Nano Silver, no matter how much you drink, cannot build up in the system because it's not metabolized. It's not a chemical form. Ionic or regular colloidal silver is actually a chemical form and can build up in the body over time.

So the thing about it is that Nano Silver, he said is not metabolized, can't build up. And so we wanted to test that theory. So in my old company way back when, we went to the University of Utah, we hired five or six different drug divisions from the University of Utah to do a human ingestion study on a 10 PPM and a 32 PPM Nano Silver liquid, right? 

Every day, an ounce a day, every day. And 56 humans. And what they found was that there was no negative action at all in the body from the ingestion of that silver, none. They tested the metabolic, the hematologic or the blood, the urinalysis, they checked the urine, the sputum, the spit, they did MRIs on their chest, they did MRIs on the abdomen, and what they found was that Nano Silver could not build up. What they said is if you drink it, it hits its height in your blood in two hours, washes out completely in 24 with no residual. It goes in, does its job, washes out, and it doesn't stay. So it's impossible for it to build up.

Ashley James (01:25:08.954)

What about if you nebulized?

Dr. Keith Moeller (01:25:11.160)

Yes, so nebulized, there's a whole bunch of studies. But now you're talking about something that's pretty fun. So I've worked with a group of veterinarians for probably the last 15 or 20 years. We'll say at least 10, 15, right?

And one of the studies that we've been doing over that time period is that race horses, when they run, they get an exercise induced infection in their lungs and it causes their nose to bleed a little. And so what we have been doing for the last decade, and it's going bigger and bigger and bigger all the time for the reason that I'll tell you in a minute.

But what happened in that was that we started nebulizing the horses, right? About 100 a day. And what we found was that they could run faster. It's not because it's a stimulant, but because we're cleaning up the infection in their lungs. So this is a direct mammal study, large mammal study, and we've been doing it for more than a decade for sure.

But the fun part is I generally think that betting gambling, is for people who are bad at math. But in this case, 70% of the horses that are nebulized with this Nano Silver particle finish in the money.

70% and it's being used by some of the top trainers that two of the big ones in California every day, about a hundred race horses. And this year we started with the barrel racing groups, right? Cause they were worried about the health of their animals and all the exercise and they were worried about the exercise induced infection. And so in that they started nebulizing them and they found that it could cut almost a second off their time. 

Okay, now that a second doesn't seem like very much, but when you consider that in national barrel racing, between number one and number fifth place was less than a second. So the difference between winning and taking fifth place, less than a second. 

So, nebulizing it. Has there been any negative action over the decade of using it in mammals? None, none at all. So in the study that I quoted you earlier out of two major institutions and the one in Canada, they were using Nano Silver in humans for utilization on that virus, which will remain nameless at the moment, and they were nebulizing it.

Interesting enough, they included sinus infections in that. So if somebody wants that data and how it worked, because I can tell you that exists, I think they get upset if I tell you what the date is on that at the moment, but I'm not going to, but it's available should you want to read it. Okay, so the answer is nebulizing it, is it safe? Yes. Does it have any negative effect? It does not. In that human ingestion study, they actually tested the lungs of the people. Because there's a certain amount of silver that you drink, consume, that's actually exhaled through your lungs. That's one of the modes of it being eliminated from your bodies by exhalation. Well, the horrible part was for these poor people, but they're being paid, right?

I think that study at the time and that company cost us about 350,000 bucks to show not what silver does, but what it doesn't do, right? But in this case, they stuck a swab clear down in these guys' lungs to check for cytokine storm action. And that means negative action, inflammatory action in the lungs. In fact, they found none. 

And in a study that we did with USNIH and it's published peer-reviewed and it's on bird flu, one of the most deadly virus I've ever seen. And we did that study with them as an ingestion study. They had tested it and found that it actually had an anti-inflammatory effect on the lungs. So not only did it not cause inflammation, but it helped eliminate inflammation in the lungs, which also is probably a reason why it works so well for horses. Now, can that help a runner? haven't done runners yet, but we have done horses. And if you're asking me, have I nebulized it? Yes, only for about probably 10, 15 years.

So does it work? I believe it works very well. Is it safe? Yes.

Ashley James (01:30:58.262)

I purchased the Nano Silver. I was sold back when you and I spoke over the phone, to switch from my store bought Colloidal Silver that is just like you said, half the piano. It only kills bacteria and it also wipes out my microbiome if I drink too much and which, I want to protect my microbiome. 

That's why I don't run to antibiotics. I'm also like allergic to almost every antibiotic out there, thank God, because I'm not trying to put anyone down, but I think it's the easy way out to just run and get an antibiotic. And we don't realize that actually every time we take antibiotics, we're increasing our chances of cancer. Dr. Joel Fuhrman talks about that a lot in his books and shows the data in his book. So you can go check out Dr. Joel Fuhrman's work to learn more about that. It's not just, oh, I need to take a probiotic and then I'm fine. It actually takes up to two years of, with intention, working to rebuild your complex microbiome of thousands of different healthy bacteria if you've had even one course of antibiotics. So I used to be chronically on antibiotics. This was a good 15, 16 years ago.

Dr. Keith Moeller (01:32:22.111)

Which explains why you've had sinus problems, so.

Ashley James (01:32:25.117)

Right. Yes, exactly. Exactly. I was just wiping out my microbiome and then getting sick again and then wiping out my microbiome and it was on and on and on. And so now, when I’ve finally learned, that whole idea that knowledge is power, like knowledge guides you to make better choices. And that's why the Learn to Health Podcast is here. Cause I want to help give the information to those who are sick of being sick and this is going to help guide your choices. You're going to make better choices because you have more information. Like our parents did the best they could with the information they have and now we're going to go and seek this new information and we're going to make even better choices because we have the information we have now. So I switched to the Nano Silver and I recently had a bronchial infection which

I don't get sick as often since I started eating healthy and really working on my health, the building it up for the last 12 years. So I was really surprised that all of a sudden I didn't know where I get this bronchial infection. I had just bad bronchitis and I went to my herbs at first, I went to my normal stuff and then I ordered the Nano Silver and I nebulized it and it really, really helped. Homeopathy also really helped me within 30 minute turnaround with the proper homeopathic remedy after working with my homeopathic doctor.

I found the Nano Silver quickly brought down the inflammation and brought down the congestion and brought down like everything got noticeably better. And I was really excited, but in the back of my mind, I remember reading somewhere a doctor saying, don't nebulize colloidal silver, it'll build up in your lungs. And again, Nano Silver is not colloidal silver, two different things. Nano Silver doesn't build up in the tissue and is safe to nebulize versus colloidal silver.

Dr. Keith Moeller (01:34:27.735)

Even with colloidal silver, I have never seen any documentation anywhere that said it would be deleterious or build up in your lungs. The only thing that I've ever seen negative action that could possibly come from colloidal silver, right? The only one is that you could get Argeria. It's too low in PPM to be toxic. It's not going to be toxic to your system. The only problem is that it does kill probiotics, right, which screws up your microbiome, but it is not going to damage your system. It's not going to hurt your lungs. I've seen no proof of that at all. And like I say, I read everything I can get my hands on. There's no toxicity associated with that at the levels which it's been used.

Ashley James (01:35:26.396)

If I drink Nano Silver every day at a healthy amount, could I wipe out or like I should say reduce because we still want candida in our system. We just want it usually 90% less than we have. Let's say I had some candida overgrowth. Would drinking it every day help my body reduce the candida to healthy levels? Would it help?

Dr. Keith Moeller (01:35:51.336)

Okay, so let's answer this in a different way. All right, so you have a parking lot and you want to put a whole bunch of good cars in there, right? And we're talking about your microbiome. You have all of this bacteria and it's helpful bacteria, probiotic bacteria, you need it. Without it, you die. It protects your throat, it protects your skin, it protects your gut, and it functions to help you be able to metabolize foods and so forth. 

In your body, I've heard it estimated that you have about 12.5 billion probiotic bacteria. In fact, one scientist told me, and I haven't been able to check this, but he told me that every time you go to the bathroom, your fecal material is as much, 50% of that can be dead bacteria that are probiotics. So they divide about every 20 minutes. So they multiply. But let's say that you're having a gut issue, you have irritable bowel, you have something like that, right? You're taking probiotics and you're saying, look, these aren't working. They're not working because the parking lot is full. You can't park anything in there.

So what you have to do is empty the parking lot of all the old junkers, and then you can park your Tesla in there, right? Or your Mercedes, or whatever it is. You don't want it full of these junkers that are taking up room and causing problems. So you have to clean that out. So if your question is, do I believe that silver can help remove that? The answer is yes, I absolutely believe that silver can help with the microbiome to help make it much more healthy. 

Now we did studies and we published some studies, my partners out of India actually published the studies showing that this Nano Silver did not hurt the probiotics. So the potential there is to be able to empty the parking lot and at the same time rebuild it.

You have the kefirs, you have yogurts, you have probiotic pills, there's tons of them. There's some good ones out from microbiome labs. There's a lot of different types that you can get a balanced portfolio of probiotics for your gut, right? But you have to be able to have room for them to be in there.

So if you're asking me, do I believe that the silver can help empty the parking lot of the problematic ones so that the good ones can grow? Absolutely. I've seen people who started using it as a supplement and we're specifically talking about as a supplement to augment the immune system, which helps all of these problems, but as a supplement for the immune system.

I've seen them be able to mitigate stuff like irritable bowel in two or three weeks because they're able to get the probiotics to be built back up again. Now your body can do that. It just takes a while. And if you've talked about antibiotics and I believe I don't use antibiotics. Most of the time they're actually prescribing antibiotics for something that's either fungal or viral, which they have no effect on whatsoever. So I think very limited use. If you're really sick and you're going to die, should you use it? My opinion is yes. But you don't use them as a first line. You don't go to them. They're not the thing you go to, right? There, I see it as more of a life-saving thing. You use the other things as your first line of defense. And then you almost never, or even hopefully never, have to use them at all.

So I think the point is that, yes, you can damage your microbiome in a huge way by using a lot of these drugs. They're highly toxic to these bacteria. If they're designed to kill bacteria, they don't have the ability to decide what bacteria are good and what bacteria are bad. I have a bunch of people that says, okay, so why doesn't this type of Nano Silver kill probiotic bacteria?

And the answer is, well, we have a number of studies that show that it doesn't. We're still arguing amongst ourselves as to why. Some think that it's because pathogens, most of them, have one or two cell layers on the outside. They're very unprotected. Where probiotic bacteria actually have like three different cell wall layers. And so they're actually more hardy, but it doesn't mean you can't kill it.

So one theory is that the silver is actually not making it in there. And the other is that it just doesn't pull it in. So most cells will not pull silver in. When you ingest silver, most of it will not be pulled into your cells. It gets pulled in into fat and other things if it's regular colloidal silver. And silver in nanoform is not, it stays separate, it's not metabolized. So it goes in, does its job, washes out most of it, probably better than 90% of it comes out through your fecal tract. So it's going through that system where all those probiotics are. And can it help eliminate those? I'm sure it can.

Ashley James (01:42:01.690)

You mentioned Nano Silver affects the biofilm in the dental, over 50,000 dental procedures that you guys have studied or done as a collection of dentists. What about the biofilm in the gut where the Candida has created a biofilm? It's like its own fort, it's like Fort Collins, but like in the gut, like it created a whole fort and that's the biofilm and that's where the bad stuff lives.

Dr. Keith Moeller (01:42:31.129)

Okay, so let's talk about what a biofilm is. So some pathogens, a whole bunch of different ones, have found that if they cover themselves with a slimy layer, stuff can't get to them to kill them. They're really good at mutating, right? And there's a ton of bugs that have developed this ability to get biofilms. And most stuff won't touch a biofilm.

I've never seen any data that showed that a colloidal silver could eliminate a biofilm. Never. There are no drugs that I'm aware of that can penetrate a biofilm and kill the underlying bacteria or pathogen. So what they have is they have this cover on the outside. Now we did three different studies. One was a dental one. One was a pathogen one on MRSA and VRI and

another really bad bug that is really problematic for burns, it's called Pseudomonas. And these are all biofilm forming pathogens, right? 

With Texas Tech School of Med, we tested all of those on the biofilms and found that the nanoparticles could, in fact, penetrate and kill the underlying pathogens. So we have three different peer-reviewed published studies. Published just means that what you have is, and peer-reviewed means that you did a study, and then you wanted to tell everybody that your study was great. So what you do is you take that study, give it to a whole bunch of other doctors, and you say, okay, look this over and see if you see any problems. And if they don't, then they sign on, and they say, okay, you did a great job, this data is useful. And that's called a

peer review. 

So you're having a bunch of peers, scientific peers, check the study to make sure it's useful and that its calculations are done correct and all of that. So these are peer reviewed and then published in major magazines studies. And so in all three of those with Texas Tech, we showed we could eliminate biofilms with this Nano Silver technology. And so in the dental thing, it's pretty easy. And we'll get to that with the new toothpaste we're working on, right? But what you do, if you brush your teeth at night and you spit it out, but you don't wash it out, you leave it in, right? Next morning you wake up, you have no growth, none. It's still clean. There are no biofilms. So that tells you, without the big scientific paper and all that, that it works because that's never happened. I would bet that every day of your whole life, you woke up and you had bad breath and you had morning breath and you had gunk on your teeth, biofilms. Well, this has the ability to eliminate that. And we showed that in this big peer review publication with Texas Tech. And I think you'll have access to that shortly. But it's just a really cool tech. And if you want to know if our tech works and if you want to know if it works on biofilms, yes, in one night, you'll know, right? You'd lean over, you give them a big kiss and you say, baby, welcome to this world. And their eyes don't roll back in their head. They don't faint because of the bad breath because there isn't any. It breaks the biofilms. So does it work? Yes. How does it work? We believe that it works because of resonant frequency.

This vibration that it puts out actually travels through the biofilm and kills the underlying bacteria or pathogen. Can we prove that? Have we decided that that's it? No, I haven't seen any proof of that. The proof is that it does it, does it every time, and we have three different publications on that. So the question is not whether it can do it, the question is how it does it. And we believe that it's a resonant frequency which can penetrate through the biofilms and kill the pathogen that the nanoparticle actually never touches.

Ashley James (01:47:00.299)

Are there any cancer studies?

Dr. Keith Moeller (01:47:02.975)

You are now on a very hot topic. And let me just say that there is a whole section on data that's available. And it's in that peer review that I talked about out of Romania that I can give you and you can post it. So I believe in the next four or five years, we are going to make a very dramatic impact on the cancer industry.

It might take us as long as 10. We've been producing data, which we won't talk about, for the last five years with a whole bunch of partners. And I think we're going to publish that. I talked to them about being ready to publish. We have data on 15 different types. And we will publish that data but somebody said to me, so how will you use it? I said, no, no. I said, not the right question. He said, what's the right question? I said, look, there's two major things. Can you affect a cell that's gone AWOL? That's the first question. Can you affect it? Can you kill a cancer cell? That's the first question. The second question is how to utilize that to do it. How to get it to that cell. We're on the first one. And do we know the data is available? Absolutely. Do you want to read some? Sure. There's a ton of published data on it. And it's available in that one study that I told you about earlier. It's the one I skipped because it's a hot topic. And it will give you a whole section on probably dozens of different studies which has used Nano Silver and its impact on cancer. Okay, so we're not making any claims there. We're just saying there's data available. If you want it, you can read it, not difficult. The part that we're working on right now with all these scientists from around the world and that I've been working with for five, six years, we're working on, can you? And remember how I told you the questions? How much, how often, how long? That's what we're working on, how much it takes. And we found that it takes different amounts for different types.

Ashley James (01:49:50.181)

Yes, that makes sense.

Dr. Keith Moeller (01:49:51.457)

And so what we're trying to figure out is, okay, do we have enough if we use this and this amount over this time period? And so can we is what we're working on now. How to, I figured there's, hundreds of thousands of really intelligent people out there. If we give them the data, there's thousands of people who will figure out how to do it. And that'll just be, I think.

You do some things because you can make money and you do some things just because you want to be a help. And I think we do well by doing good, right? And the more good you can do, the better off you are. And so our goal is to do well by doing good. And we believe we do a mass amount of good and we know that we do and we have documentation. It makes me feel good when I get up. So it's not anything compared to where we're headed, but I am really excited. In 2005, my father and I got a call from US Congress. And they said, we hear that you've been producing data on malaria in humanitarian efforts in Africa.

And we said, that's true. They said, will you come and give us that data? And we said, no. We said, you're asking us to make claims we can't make in the US. We can make it in other countries. Cause at that time we actually had approvals to be able to do it in some portions of Africa. And they said, look, we make those rules. We'll give you a pass. We want the data. And so, my father stood, I was next to him, in front of the US Congress and gave him all this data. And they wanted data on HIV, on TB, number one cause of death by infection in the world, TB, and malaria, second leading cause of death by infection. And we gave them all the data. We told them how long, how much, exactly how much they needed, how long it would take to mitigate it.

And then they made all that data public. We still can't use it in the US because it makes claims we can't make. But Congress released all that data. If you want to read it, yes. I have the address in the congressional record where they made all that data public. But somebody said, “Hey, can you prove that it actually does anything?' I said, well, other than the fact that we have published peer-reviewed human studies, on HIV that are public data. We have data on H5N1 bird flu we did with the US NIH. We have mass amounts of data on malaria and numerous other things. We have data on probably 10 different virus, bird flu, swine flu, H1N1, H3N2, H4, there's another one in there. There's data on monkeypox, there's data on big peer-reviewed published paper on RSV that they're pushing right now. Huge problem in kids and adults, RSV. Can Nano Silver affect it? There's a whole big published paper on saying exactly who, where, what. If they want it, can I send it to? For sure, they just have to request it. So I think the fun part is that the old silver BS stuff is gone, I hate the gibberish, right? Either show me the data or don't give me information. And I think that there's so much data being produced all over the world and so many uses that are incredible that if you look at mankind's history, right? We're having problems, so we're going back to it. If you want to read something fun, now this is really pretty fun. I was looking at all the problems and what I thought was going to happen in 2010. And I wrote that on page 23 of that book. So if you read that book, Silver: Nature’s Natural Healer from the Silver Use Institute. Read page 23. One of my employees came up the other day and said, did you realize you wrote this in 2010? And he started calling me Madam Cleo. And I started to laugh and I read it and I thought, yes, wow. There was some insight that I didn't expect to be given the world, but I did in the book of what I thought was going to happen and how it would happen. It's crazy, but you should read that just for the fun of it.

Ashley James (01:55:22.912)

Oh, I will. I want to make sure listeners know where to get the Nano Silver that we know. I mean, it's a wild west out there, right? So anyone could slap a label on a bottle, put some liquid in it, and say, come buy my Nano Silver and it's an unregulated industry, we don't have the FDA needing to test everything good for us.

I don't want the supplement industry to ever be regulated in that way because they would wipe out everything and only let pharmaceutical companies make stuff. It would just definitely remove choice, but it's still the wild, wild west. We have to go with companies that do third-party lab testing that prove what's in the bottle is in the bottle, that back up their product. They have a track record. They have history. They have data and studies behind what they do. That's why, I'm going with the one that you guys work with.

Dr. Keith Moeller (01:56:28.276)

In this day and age, we have the internet, right? People can have information in a flash. And if somebody's blown BS, the easiest thing is, show me that. You said this, show it to me. If they can't show it to you, then we call that defined as scientific gibberish, right? It sounds scientific, but it's actually useless.

And there's a lot of them. I heard one the other day that said, I said, well, your product actually is ionic. And they said, no, it has nano clusters in it. I said, I'm looking at your data. I see nothing in here that shows anything about nano cluster. And they said, no, there's nano clusters in it. And that's because we've been putting out so much data on Nano Silver. They were just morphing into becoming nano from a very small ionic, right? 

And so the answer is, you can always say, show me the data. There's abilities to get information like never before. The blessing of being able to do research in seconds is stunning to me. I had a question the other day and I just looked it up and I had like a hundred reports and I thought that is the coolest thing ever. 

When I was a kid and that was a long time ago, because I'm old now, I'm 63, right? I actually had to look all that stuff up in the library and books. And once it's written in books, it's old, right? So you're not dealing with the latest, greatest.

Ashley James (01:58:09.558)

Right. I remember going to the University of Toronto Reference Library to get information. I'm 43, but I still, I'm at that wonderful age where I remember what it was like before the internet and you had to go down into the bowels of University of Toronto Reference Library and the dusty and that smell. I love the smell of books and libraries.

Oh my gosh, and now it's so simple. I don't have to get on three buses and go all the way downtown and go in the bowels of a library. I can just type it in and scan documents with my eyes and capture the information and then listen to interviews with experts and immediately have access to books. I just love it. 

So I want to let listeners know how to get the silver that is proven. The Nano Silver,, use coupon code LTH. I'm so glad I can always get a great discount for the listener. I definitely want to have you back because we're going to have lots more questions, but my final question, what about those people that say they make their own silver at home?

Dr. Keith Moeller (01:59:24.770)

Okay, so home brews, that's also a section in the book. Most of the cases of Argeria that I've ever seen are the home brews. And do they work? Yes, they probably work to a certain extent. There are clumps of ionic silver, mostly it's large clumps, and it's pretty gnarly. It's kind of like saying, the difference between what we do and that is kind of like saying, okay.

I know that aphrod comes from white willow bark, so I'm just going to chew a chunk of bark. You know, will that work? Probably, if you get enough of it. Is it the best way to do it? Probably not. In this case, the home brew, if you're using it for outside your body, I think you're good. You have a couple problems. One, and we've tested a lot of them but most of those are an ionic form of silver and that ionic form is in big clumps, it's stuck together and it can build up in your system pretty bad. And the second one is almost every case of Argeria I've ever seen was almost always home brew. 

But don't get me wrong, these guys most of them are the opinion that if a little is good, a lot is great. And some of them are drinking like a gallon a day, right? And the other problem with home brew is, it goes back to that question, how much over what time period to help eliminate the problem. In this case, you don't know what the part per million is. You have no idea. You're just taking a guess out of it. And you have no idea what kind you're actually creating and what it looks like or what it does. 

There's no test data because every single time you make it, it's different. And usually when we make a silver product, we use a four and a five nines pure silver to embed it into the water. And our process is crazy long. It takes us on like even at 10 PPM takes us about 30 hours to embed the silver into the water. And we use a four and a five, nine silver. So you understand what I'm talking about. 

If you have sterling silver, right? Sterling silver is about 70% silver and 30% other stuff, right? Can be whatever, brass, copper. But when you sell silver as a coin, it's a 3.9 silver. That's the standard. And what 3.9 means is it's 99.9% pure silver, right? And the silver that we use is actually a lab grade silver, which is a 99.99 or 999% pure.

So we get the purest form of silver we can do. It costs us a lot more money, but then we know that we're coming up with the product we want that's the right level at the right timeframe to be able to do what we're trying to do. If it's a wound care product that's in Canada, back there at the University of Toronto, I can tell you every single pathogen and how long it would take for this silver gel at this level to eliminate that pathogen. So I know we'll have success because if you know what the pathogen is, I can tell you exactly how long it takes to eliminate it.

So, and the other big thing with the Nano Silver is we can actually tell you that it can eliminate it. Whereas with an ionic or a homebrew, you don't know what you're getting. You might be getting a lot, you might be getting enough, you might not be getting enough.

How do you know, right? You're taking what we call a crap shot at it. And you know, if that's all I had, would I use it? Yes, I would. Is it the best? No, you're back. So where a colloidal silver has about half the piano keys to play, a home brew has about 10% of the keys, right? 

So do they work? Yes, but the music you can make with it is very, very limited. Colloidal Silver, you can make a lot more music. The Nano Silver with the AG-404 coating. Oh yes, you have a whole orchestra.

Ashley James (02:04:16.520)

I just love that Nano Silver doesn't build up in the tissues, that it doesn't disrupt the microbiome and like you said, you keep adding keys because you keep seeing other uses for it. And I am so excited for the day that we can see it being used in oncology. Really, really excited. I was just imagining the mechanism of action, like taking Nano Silver.

Dr. Keith Moeller (02:04:41.602)

Okay, so you know that silver's been used in oncology for decades. So the gels, and we can talk about those gels because they're wound care gels, like the one that I'm talking about, this product in Canada can be used on the radiation burn site. So where you're in treatment, can you use it? Yes, you can. You use it on that treatment site and it will eliminate the pain, the inflammation, the redness. 

In Canada right now, we can make direct claims on mitigation of even like sunburn. Nobody has a product that makes a direct claim on mitigation of sunburn. I'm hoping by next spring, we can do that in the US and I think we'll be able to. With a little luck, we produced all the data. It's already been filed. We're just waiting our time and seeing if they come up with any problems, which we don't think they will. 

But hopefully, right, we have that done. But with that approval, yes, we could use it on catheters. That's a device insertion site. Eliminate the bacteria on catheters while they're in, and that would eliminate UTIs in older people and elderly care. It would be a very big deal.

And that's one of the uses that we've already tested. We know works. And we're up for that approval. The use, potentially even on condoms as an antimicrobial, that's a device insertion site. So there's a whole lot of that stuff that we're currently working on that has the potential of really changing the medicinal history of the world and eliminating mass amounts of problems. 

The number one bug in the US is still MRSA. That's one that raises the most havoc in a hospital. Methicillin Resistant Staph Aureus. And the gel, the gel data that we turned into the FDA, shows that it's about 15 minutes. Not a problem. 

Ashley James (02:06:57.878)

Kills it, wipes it out in 15 minutes. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. I'm so excited to have you back on the show. We're going to keep this discussion going. Listeners, please go to the Learn True Health Facebook group and join the discussion. I'm going to create a thread so we can start collecting your questions for Keith. And also, if you don't have Facebook, I understand that. Just email me,

Go to, use coupon code LTH, get the Nano Silver for yourself, if anything, just store it and hold on to it for a day and a time when you may need it, right? It's because it's shelf stable, which is so exciting. 

Dr. Keith Moeller (02:07:42.833)

Yes, it'd be way better if you learned how to use it before that problem gets there. 

Ashley James (02:07:49.169)

Right. Yes. We can get your free book, the and go to page 23 for fun reading. And I'm going to make sure that the links to everything we talked about today with Dr. Keith Moeller on my website and in the show notes of today's podcast at learntruehealth.comThis has been wonderful. And normally when I wrap things up, I ask, is there anything you didn't get to say? And I kind of think we'd start talking for another hour if I did that, but I want to have you back on the show.

Dr. Keith Moeller (02:08:19.851)

Oh yes, make a note, next time we'll get into tests and studies I did with William Boma Army Med and the Special Operations Medical Association. After I worked with them for a while, eliminating problem bugs that they had in the Middle East, they actually made me an official member of the Special Operations Medical Association. So I've been adopted.

They liked me enough, they adopted me into that group, which is some of the coolest people on the planet. These are the guys who are in charge of keeping all of their people alive and well, and who end up running back onto the battlefield, right? To save people who've been shot. And they're running into fire to help people who've been hit. And I mean, these guys, they're nuts, and they're like the coolest people on the plane but I did a lot of work with them. We can talk about that on another day.

Ashley James (02:09:19.533)

Yes. And I've got a note also to talk about Nano Silver, in terms of mixing it with bone graphs. You said at a later date, we'll talk more about this, the data.

Dr. Keith Moeller (02:09:30.351)

Yes, I'll tell you the case studies, the pictures, you can see them. And that work is actually in Canada, now it's traveling across the whole US. I think we just signed up a group of 1,000 dentists to do these clinical trials. 

Ashley James (02:09:49.563)

Awesome. I'm going to make sure my dentist listens to this. So hi, Dr. Beer. I'm going to tell him he's got to listen to it. So now I've got a shout out for him. I'm going to get him to listen. I also have a story and I'll share it next time as well. My husband's grandfather, who was a professor at Cal Tech at the same time as Einstein, we have a picture of him with Einstein, super neat that my mother-in-law as a child got to meet Einstein. He came over to the house in Alta Dina and had dinner or something like that. But he was a German professor who came over here and had invented, for personal use, he shared it with friends and family, but he invented a powder and these two different kinds, one for internal use, one for external use, and it contained silver and he used it to him and his whole family. 

So my mother-in-law grew up doing this, not getting on antibiotics because anytime they had any problems they used this type of silver. I'll get more information and share more, but it was really interesting. They called it the black powder, go get the black powder. And they'd rub it on a cut or they'd gargle with it. And then boom.

Dr. Keith Moeller (02:11.08.203)

Okay, so you know my favorite Einstein quote, and I think it is so perfect. He was so intelligent. But he has a quote that says, if we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research. That's my favorite Einstein quote. If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research.

Ashley James (02:11:32.539)

That's really good. And we have to remember that science and research is about discovery. And also about admitting, finding out we were wrong or finding out new information. And it's this whole idea the last few years, the science is settled. The science isn't settled. Science literally is not settled. That's not the definition of science. It is constantly learning new things, finding out we were wrong or finding out some deeper information, getting the complete picture on something. Right. 

Dr. Keith Moeller (02:12:01.167)


Ashley James (02:12:02.601)

There's no science that's settled. That's like, that's crazy. Right.

Dr. Keith Moeller (02:12:04.937)

It's a moving object, and hopefully you get much better at it. Hopefully you're continuing to learn, but there's always more. There's so much more.

Ashley James (02:12:16.673)

Right. And I'm so excited to explore that with you the next time you come on the show. Thank you so much, Dr. Keith Moeller. It's been such a pleasure having you here. And I know listeners are going to go to, use coupon code LTH and grab your bottle. And tonight I'm using it as a rinse and I'm going to wake up tomorrow morning, jump on my husband and breathe on him or we're going to do that little experiment.

Dr. Keith Moeller (02:12:42.215)

We'll get you an experimental version of the toothpaste and you can try that. That's the big thing. So we're bringing out three different types and we'll work with that group on those, but one will be a cinnamon, one's a mint, and then a bubblegum berry for the kids. But that's the test and that's how you know it works.

You're getting that kiss first thing in the morning, and it opens up all sorts of new opportunities, right? Ha ha!

Ashley James (02:13:12.965)

I'm sorry, I don't even have a dog, but I hate dog breath like on dogs. And I wonder, cause like the end of the pet industry, could you just add the Nano Silver to their water?

Dr. Keith Moeller (02:13:23.166)

You could, but you can't do the toothpaste because the toothpaste has xylitol in it and xylitol does bad things for dogs, but humans, it has the ability to eliminate a bunch of the pathogens that are gram negatives in the mouth. The other thing we put in, and we'll talk about it later, is we added a coral calcium, and that is expensive as all get out, but it's harder than the plaque, softer than the enamel.

So the theory is you can scrape the plaque off the teeth and not hurt the enamel and then the xylitol and the coral calcium rebuild the teeth. They remineralize the teeth.

Ashley James (02:14:05.433)

Nice. And then of course the Nano Silver is in there decreasing inflammation and wiping out the–

Dr. Keith Moeller (02:14:13.370)

Working with the Xylotoph. Yes, it worked incredible. Yep.

Ashley James (02:14:16.377)

Yes, working with it. Yes. Getting rid of the biofilm, wiping out the bad bacteria while not harming the good bacteria. So, oh, exciting. Thank you, Dr. Keith Moeller. It's such a pleasure having you on the show and I can't wait to have you back.

Dr. Keith Moeller (02:14:27.184)

Have a great one. Thanks for your time.

Ashley James (2:14:29.018) 

I hope you enjoyed today's interview with Dr Keith Moeller. We're definitely going to have him back on the show. He dropped a few really cool topics that I can't wait to follow up on.

As we discussed in the interview, if you have questions especially after listening to this, I'm sure I'm sure everyone does and you want Keith to answer your questions specifically. Jump into the Learn True Health Facebook group. I'm going to create a post there for all your questions for him and then, when I have him back on the show, I will go down the list of all your questions. I'll make sure it's anonymous and I'll start asking the questions and say these are from the listeners and let's start picking his brain, because, man, it's so sexy when a scientist or a doctor or an expert, has photographic memory and he might not remember your name, but he could tell you what's on paragraph three of page 10 of the 47th study published in 2012 on Nano Silver. How cool is that? And so let's collectively pick his brain. 

After our interview, he got to tell me some stuff off air, that he's not allowed to publish yet, he's not allowed to openly discuss because he's going after FDA approvals. But hold on to your seats. It is as exciting as you can imagine in the realms of I'm just going to name some hints major disease that is in the top five of killers and something that, no, you wouldn't want to wish on your worst enemy. Hopefully you don't have any enemies, but you know the saying and major results in that area. Very cool. So they're doing some huge studies around that and it's going to turn the world in a good way, up on its head. It's going to completely shift how medicine is practiced and he's figuring out how to get it into the hospital system, get it into being widely accepted and used in products that the hospital uses, get it to be accepted. I mean, the studies are the sciences there. You'd have to be a complete pardon me, but like moron of a doctor to keep your eyes closed right, to not see what's in front of you. 

But it's not up to the individual doctors to change the broken medical system right. It's going to be up to all of us to force the hand of the broken medical system because, even though it's broken on our end, it's actually not broken on their end, on the end of those who profit from it. They're keeping it this way on purpose at every level, because it profits them. 

And for those in socialized medicine like Canada and the UK, think about it this way it's about saving money. Saving money comes before saving the patients, and making money comes before saving the patient in in systems like the United States. So every single medical system is broken. I've had several experts on recently talking about that and what we can do is vote with our dollar, educate our individual doctors and make those choices by getting the doctors that best support us and that will look at the new research to be with us and to be on our team. 

You'll definitely want to share this episode with your doctors. I know chiropractors are already on board, like the second you share it there's a very little resistance that they have. Medical doctors have a bit more resistance because of their indoctrination. And a really good medical doctor when they realize they become self aware and they realize the indoctrination that they went through was designed to profit big pharma, and again, I am folding my tinfoil hat as we speak, I'm handing them out to all of you. 

I know I sound like a cuckoo bird, however, when you just look at how the system is run, it's unfortunate that this is what we're in, but I'm going to scream it from the rooftops. We can build a better system. We just we have to first know, know your enemy, know what you're up against, and then choose the the aspects of the system that best supports you, which, in this case, are doctors that are willing to listen and look at the research. So Nano Silver amazing, amazing benefits. I love that there's so many studies and there's so many applications and I see a day where it's being used on every level in medicine. 

Can you imagine how much of medicine would shift if all infectious disease, both chronic when I say chronic, like HIV, aids, those kind of things like chronic infection right, if we could have a world where all chronic and acute infections were not a problem, naturally and that the treatment did not harm us in the process. That's what Dr Keith's working on and that's what the studies show that we have. We have an amazing tool and it's just the beginning. So thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for being a listener and sharing this episode with those you care about. 

Jump into the Learn to Health Facebook group to join the conversation and give me your questions for Dr Keith let's pick his brain next time he's on the show. Be sure to check out and use the coupon code LTH. I just love that I can get a discount for you guys and go to to download Keith's book, and if you have any questions for me, I'd love to hear it as well. Can't wait to see you in the Learn True Health Facebook group, but if you're not on Facebook, please definitely just email me, I'd love to hear from you. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for listening and have yourself a fantastic rest of your day. 


Get Connected with Dr. Keith Moeller!

Silver Nature's Natural Healer (Get Dr. Keith's free e-book!)


Nov 20, 2023

Black Friday / Cyber Deals: If you listen to this after the end of the sales, visit to get the latest discounts I secure for my listeners on my top favorite health things!


November 17th until November 26th 

25% on all products using coupon code LTH25 



Pre-Black Friday / Black Friday

  • Nov 13-25th
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Cyber Monday

  • Nov 27th-Dec 1st
  • Save up to $950 (biggest savings on Amplify)

Mag Soak

35% off with coupon code LTH at checkout

Medicinal Aloe Drink

BFLTH for 7% beginning Monday 20th and ending Sunday 26th at the end of day.


Organix Therapeutic Mattress


10% off, free shipping, free mattress protector, free bamboo sheets, OR two non-toxic/chemical-free healthy pillows PLUS a copy of my latest book. 



IIN: 45% off IIN's Health Coach Training Program! (with coupon code "ASHLEYJAMES20")

Visit to learn more and see all the courses!

Curious but want to learn more before you dive in? Get a free sample class here:

The 45% off sale ends on the 25th!


513: Psychophysiology Breakthrough Cure For Long Haul and Pain

Unlock the secrets to overcoming chronic pain and illness as Dr. David Clarke, a trailblazer in psychophysiologic disorders, reveals a revolutionary, drug-free path to recovery. Our latest episode goes beyond the surface of physical ailments, exploring the deep-seated emotional traumas that often fuel persistent health challenges. Dr. Clarke's expertise shines as we traverse the landscape of mind-body therapies, offering hope and transformative healing practices for those afflicted by conditions like long-haul COVID, chronic pain, and unexplained medical symptoms.



  • Treatment for Chronic Pain and Illnesses
  • Mind-Body Connection in Chronic Pain
  • Discovering the Mind-Body Connection
  • Long-term Impacts of Childhood Stress
  • Top Therapies for Chronic Pain
  • Understanding and Treating Chronic Pain
  • ACEs' Impact and Coping Strategies
  • Childhood Trauma and Its Physical Impact
  • Effective Therapy and Preventing Chronic Stress
  • Combined Therapies and Introduction to Timeline Therapy


Hello True Health Seekers and welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health podcast. I am so excited. If you listen to today's interview with Dr. David Clarke, it's possibly one of the most important interviews I have ever done in the last seven years and will ever do. 

He presents today the now proven treatment that is drug-free, that very quickly helps people to recover from chronic pain, from unexplained illness, from those mystery illnesses. Right. When the doctors are like, well, we've done everything we can do and you still are sick, those kind of things get resolved and even long haul covid. It's restoring people back to their true health and I'm just so thrilled that we can get this information out there. Please share this with those you care about, share this with everyone, because we've got to get this out there. This one interview, the information that Dr. David Clarke has the potential to completely change the entire world of medicine, the entire world of healthcare. That's how exciting it is, and before we get to that, I'm going to blast through six sales that are coming up or have just started that I want you to know about, because these are my favorite health companies and they're giving us huge discounts for Black Friday for the Thanksgiving 2023. 

But if you're listening to this and it's no longer Thanksgiving, I want you to go to's to get the latest discounts that I secure for my listeners. All my top favorite health things that I want you guys to know about. The list is always there and it's always going to get updated to the latest stuff, so go check that out. But right now, if you're listening and you just dropped this episode and you're just listening during November 2023, here's the sales I want you to know about. I'm going to go through this list really fast and then we're going to get to the episode. Analemma, which is the structured water device. I did two interviews on it. Fascinating. I've been using it with my family for a whole year. We absolutely love it and love the health effects that we get from it. The discount is 25% off all their products, including they have a whole house unit, and there's some great studies coming out about how bathing in this structured water, significantly, improves heart health and other biomarkers, even your cellular energy production, the ATP production, and your mitochondrial health is improved and your microbiome of your gut is improved. It's very cool. So listeners can use the coupon code LTH25. LTH is Learn True Health 25 and that's going on from November 17th until November 26th. Use the link to get there and check it out. That's coupon code LTH25. 

Sunlighten is my favorite sauna. I've got my sauna right here beside me in the office and I absolutely love using it, especially in the fall and winter time. But even in the summer I'll jump in there because there's nothing more refreshing than detoxing in the sauna any time of year. Friday sale goes from November 13th to the 25th, so that's already started. You save up to $1,149. That includes free shipping on certain models. You just want to call them really and just say, Hey, Ashley James sent me from Learn True Health podcast. You guys give us a special discount because they do, and they specifically give my listeners a special deal and I talk to them about that. And then after the November 27th to December 1st, they are doing the biggest savings on the Amplify, which is one of their models, and it's going to be over $950 off. And I believe that also includes free shipping, because that's what we get for my listeners. 

The next one my favorite Magnesium Soak. I've been raving about this for about six years now, along with the magnesium cream and the magnesium muscle cream. Right now, when you go to, it says 25% off. However, at the checkout, use coupon code LTH. Make sure you always use coupon code LTH on that website and it'll add an additional 10% off, bringing it to a total of 35% off. I always stock up every year when it comes to this big, big sale that she does and she gives us an extra discount, and that's really nice of her. 

Now the Aloe Drink. The medicinal aloe drink. I have three interviews about this. The medicinal aloe drink you can go to Make sure you use the coupon code and this is going to expire on the 26th of November. BFLTH as in Black Friday, Learn True Health, so BFLTH. That gives you 7% off. I know that's not much, but he has really low margins and this is the best medicinal aloe drink I have ever found, so I'll take it. I'll take the savings. And also, before the Learn True Health listeners use that link, he does throw in his amazing aloe cream and I absolutely love it. It's my favorite hand cream. 

Okay, second to last Organix Bed. I've been sleeping on this for several years, and I will never sleep on another mattress again, if I can help it. When we go on vacations, we actually like, really don't look forward to any beds and except our own, and we love coming back for our vacations because of how amazing this mattress is. This mattress is healing for the back. I've done several interviews about this. I've raved about it before. 

You can go to with an X O-R-G-A-N-I-X Now here's the new deal, because they already give us a really great discount and everything we get 10% off, free shipping. We get a free mattress protector, free bamboo sheets, you can choose the sheets, or you can choose two non-toxic, chemical free, healthy pillows. Plus, I'm going to give you the latest copy of my book, which is about to be published. 

If you do decide to go for the Organix mattress right now and that deal is ending soon so if you are up for a new mattress, we're supposed to replace it every five years. If you can believe that it's kind of crazy. Organix mattress lasts for over 25 years. You will be buying this mattress and it's possibly sleep on it the rest of your life. It's that amazing and it doesn't break down like regular mattresses. It's paying for two mattresses but then you're getting six mattresses out of it. It is so like heaven sleeping on this thing. 

Lastly, the InSuit for Integrative Nutrition, which is where I went to become a health coach. They're offering the biggest sale I've ever seen them do. They recently merged with Dr Chopra. All of his courses are also offered there. If you're like I'm not interested in being a health coach, well, they have other courses. 

You got to go check it out. Please go to That's Be sure to use the coupon code AshleyJames20. I couldn't get them to do LTH, just their system needed more letters or whatever. AshleyJames20. In total, you're getting 45% off their health coach training program right now and the sale ends on the 25th. That is huge. I've never seen them do that significant of a discount. It is an amazing program. I highly recommend checking it out. If you're curious and you just want to see more and get a sample class, go to That gets you a sample class. It's 45% off for the health coach training program with coupon code AshleyJames20. When you go to, it's 35% off, I believe for their other trainings. They've got a ton of them. Go check it out. It's really cool. 

There's a few other health-related Black Friday sales that I'm seeing coming up that I'm going to possibly be talking about next week, just to let you guys know but these are the major ones. Thank you so much for sticking around and listening to them.

Today's interview is mind-blowing and I'm so excited to bring it to you. Please come join the Facebook group, the LearnTrue Health Facebook group, so we can have a discussion about this afterwards. I just really think it's important that we get together as a community to talk about this, to share our thoughts on it and to learn from other people's thoughts and experiences. Come join the community. Let's chat about this. You can always reach out to me. You can email me, ashley@learntruehealthcom. I'd love to hear from you if you have any questions or comments, but, really, the Facebook group is where we all get together as a community. The listeners get to learn from each other and share and feel a part of something. It's kind of a lonely world out there. When I'm just talking into a mic and you're just sitting there listening. It kind of feels lonely. But I'm reaching through the mic, I'm giving you a hug and I'm saying we're here, we're all in this together and I support you and we support each other. Come join the Facebook group so we can do that with each other. 

Also, go to my website,, and sign up for my newsletter, if you haven't already. It's not really a newsletter. I just like maybe send one or two emails out a month on average, just sharing the latest news in this arena when it comes to helping you achieve true health. With that being said, I hope everyone has a wonderful Thanksgiving in America. To all my American friends a wonderful Thanksgiving, and, around the world, I wish all of you true health. Enjoy today's interview. 

Ashley James (09:58.011)

Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I'm your host, Ashley James. This is Episode 513. 

I am so excited for today's guest. We have Dr. David Clarke on the show endchronicpainorg. This is such a fascinating topic to get into. The mind, is something we're just beginning to understand, we're just beginning to explore. I kind of imagine us like we're in the 1500s and we're discovering the Americas and we're discovering all these new areas around the world. That's where we are when it comes to understanding the mind. We know so little and we're always amazed by how much we can learn. And when I saw the study that you're here to talk about today, where they have such a powerful breakthrough when it came to long haul covid, I just had to have you on the show. Now, you are the president of and let's see if I can even say this correctly Psychophysiological Disorders Association. Is that correct? 

Dr. David Clarke (11:05.409)

Almost, yes. We dropped that little AL at the end because it's got way too many syllables as it is, so we call it the Psychophysiologic Disorders Association, and the easiest way to think about it is that it's a blend of psychology and physiology.

Ashley James (11:22.683)

Which makes perfect sense because when we go to the doctor, the doctor says, oh, it must be in your head, go to the shrink. And we feel really hurt by that because it's like, no, my pain is real, my suffering is real, and you're telling me I'm just making it up. And that's not necessarily what they're saying. They're saying that the mind and the body are intimately connected and that the mind does impact the physical body and vice versa. And it's so interesting that you get to explore this area. It's so unchartered, right? It's worth learning new and new things every day about the mind-body connection, how powerful it is. I have been fascinated by this subject my entire life. I remember a teenager reading books on the mind-body connection. And here we have your studies showing how you can turn off chronic pain, like And now with your new study on how we can help those who are suffering from long covid. I'm so excited to have you come and teach us today. 

Dr. David Clarke (12:34.152)

Thank you, I'm delighted to be here. And you know, patients should be angry when they hear that something is supposedly all in their head because that's the last thing it is. We've found real anatomic changes in the brain in people that have these conditions. That's why we have physiology in our name because those are the processes of the body. And there are anatomic differences that have come about because of stress.

And the stress is largely unrecognized. When you would think that a stress that was severe enough to produce physical illness in somebody's body, pain or otherwise, that the stress would be obvious, but actually it's not. And the stresses can come from the remote past, from adversity in childhood, they can be going on in the present day, but just simply not recognized for how powerful they are. But all of this turns out to be good news because if we can identify what those stresses are, and we know how to do that in 2023, we can almost always treat them successfully. And when we do that, as was shown in this study, people's physical symptoms, even severe, long-lasting, multiple symptoms can respond dramatically. And the long covid study was a group of people who had been suffering for an average of nine months. They had 23 adults under the age of 60 that were studied. And this was done at Harvard, but it's just one more example of what psychophysiologic work can accomplish. So these patients had been very ill with their long covid, and they were treated with exactly the approach I was just outlining, uncovering the sources of stress, which can include emotions, it can include things that are triggering for you in the present day, it can include long-term impacts from the past, such as personality traits that are stressful, and they help people identify these, work through them, and in a matter of weeks, there was dramatic improvement, 80% improvement in shortness of breath, 77% improvement in how pain was interfering with their activity, 74% in pain anxiety, 67% improvement in brain fog. Other body symptoms improved 60% and on down the line with physical limitations, average pain through the day, gastrointestinal symptoms, and even fatigue was 44% better. And the other dramatic finding that was a standout to me is that a majority of the patients had experienced that exercise made their symptoms worse. But after eight weeks of treatment, only 4% was that still the case.

Ashley James (15:35.715)

Oh my gosh, that is so cool. Because long haul covid, there's all these different symptoms and we think this virus destroyed my body and I'm left ravaged. And there's over 8 million people suffering from it. We know it's a real thing. And they're just wondering, do I ever get my body back? Is this something like mono where we have to wait a whole year? Do I ever get my body back? And that was so stressful. I mean, the last few years have been stressful for everyone. But people who have suffered from covid and survived, it was such a traumatic event for so many people, myself included, and then to then have day-to-day suffering compounds the stress. So, it's this catch-22 because the past was stressful. Now the present is even more stressful because they're stressing about their current symptoms. And then you're saying that finding the causes of stress and helping to relieve them and solve them was the key to helping their body get on the other side of long haul covid.

Dr. David Clarke (16:44.593)

Yes, absolutely. It's a perfectly natural assumption that if you are feeling something in your body, if you've got pain or illness, that there must be a disease or injury going on that is causing it. And that if only you can find the right doctor or the right diagnostic test or the right treatment, that you're going to be able to do something about that disease or injury. And people go from doctor to doctor, they get specialty evaluations, they go see alternative health clinicians, they try different diets, they try medications, they try supplements, sometimes depending on the symptom, they will try various manufactured devices, all with this intense focus on there must be something structurally wrong with the body. But it turns out that you can have just as severe symptoms, just as long lasting, even multiple symptoms that are generated by the brain. The classic example that's kind of an analogy for all this is what's called phantom limb pain, where a person has had an amputation, but they feel pain in the location of the missing limb. Now, obviously, the limb isn't doing that because it's not there anymore. The only place this can be coming from is in the brain.

And it turns out that the brain can do this literally from head to toe in people who've never come close to having an amputation. And the reason why the brain is doing that is again because of this stress. So that means the whole focus of diagnosis has to shift, that we need to move our attention from what's going on in our bodies to what is going on in our brains. And from there,

to what's happening in our lives or happened in the past. And when we do that, that's when the solutions begin to appear. 

One of my patients, I'll just give you an example of how dramatically this can turn around. She was hospitalized at a major university medical center on the West Coast 60 times in 15 years. And no diagnosis. She had her attacks were nausea, vomiting, and extreme dizziness, just to describe her symptoms. And she saw gastroenterologists like myself. She saw a neurologist. She saw ear, nose, and throat specialists. And when they all were unsuccessful, and she saw a dozen of them, they had her see a psychiatrist in the third year of her illness. And he evaluated her according to the normal approach that mental health professionals are taught, looking for depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress, personality disorders, and she didn't have any of those things. And so he sent her back to the medical doctors and said, she's fine mentally, which is true from the vast majority of my patients. They're very strong people actually. But she happened to have one of her attacks when she was in Portland, Oregon, which is where I'm based.

When I went to see her, she said something I'd never heard from any other patient, which was, thank you for coming, doctor, but you're wasting your time. You'd be better off seeing your other patients. She was in such despair. But you can imagine, 15 years, major university hospital, no answers. But even though this was early in my career, I knew what to look for, which was to find a stress, either in the present day or the past. And it turned out she had significant amounts of both that were directly linked to her attacks of these dizziness and vomiting episodes. And just by showing her that connection, she was well on the spot, just bringing the stress into her conscious awareness when she could see it, think about it, do something about it. She went home from the hospital the next day. She called me a year later. She'd gone the entire year without a single attack.

Ashley James (20:57.941)

Oh my gosh, this doesn't make sense when we think about the brain, its job is supposed to help us survive, right? The brain's job is supposed to get us through life and, anything that's not conscious, right? All the autonomic functions, everything about the brain is to keep the heart beating, to keep the blood flowing, to keep us hunting or gathering and for another day, mating, right? It's supposed to keep going. And yet now we're seeing when we have a certain amount of stress, it could be emotional, mental, physical, spiritual, we've got some kind of stressor or unresolved stress from the past that we're bringing into the now, that the body is just manifesting things physically. It's breaking down and manifesting things physically. And that doesn't make sense because isn't the brain's job intended to protect us and keep us in, keep us living.

Dr. David Clarke (22:00.071)

Yes, and you're talking about the fight or flight nervous system and that absolutely the sympathetic nervous system absolutely is designed to keep us alive in a stressful situation. But the reaction to that is when the stress goes away, your fight or flight nervous system can settle down and then the rest and digest nervous system can take over. So it's natural to have a back and forth between the two.

But if you are feeling like you are constantly under threat, then your sympathetic nervous system is turned on all the time and it begins to have its impact on the body. And you're constantly under threat when there is a stress going on in your life that you're not recognizing. It's impacting you, but you don't know how to make it go away because you don't know where it's coming from. And until you recognize it and bring it into your conscious awareness and get some help in reducing it, it's going to be impacting your sympathetic nervous system. Everybody's had a psychophysiologic stress at one time or another, or psychophysiologic symptom at one time or another. A classic example is blushing with embarrassment. That's a mind-to-body reaction. Same with feeling a knot in your abdomen when you're in a tense situation. That's a mind to body reaction. There are countless expressions in our language that wouldn't exist without there being a brain to body or mind to body connection. And that's something like a spine tingling excitement or heart pounding thrills, for example. There's scores of those. But the good news is that if you know what to look for, we can uncover what's going on, bring it out into the open where we can see it, think about it and do something about it. And then people get better like that patient who was hospitalized so many times. I wish I could say I get people better that quickly in every case. I certainly don't. There are many patients who need up to several years of psychotherapy to achieve the same outcome. But even those patients once they've identified the stress, they can see that they're on a pathway toward recovery. They can see that they've found the source of the problem, that it wasn't in their body, and that they can use their cognitive skills to overcome it.

Ashley James (24:40.342)

So before you became a doctor, you received a degree in psychology. Is that where you started to see this, that it was so important to look at the stressors in someone's life? Did you have an aha moment or is it something you pieced together over time?

Dr. David Clarke (24:55.946)

No, there was definitely an aha moment. My degree in psychology was just a bachelor's degree and it didn't really include a lot of information about individuals who were struggling with these issues. It was more just general background. Honestly, I never expected to use it again. I was on a pathway toward becoming a garden variety gastrointestinal specialist. We put camera tubes inside people and do all kinds of interesting things in their GI tract. That's what I was headed for. And I was having a good career up to that point. My formal training years were going very well. I got an award for excellence in medical school. I was at a top training program at Harbor UCLA Medical Center. I was passing my board examinations with excellent scores. So I was completely unprepared to run into a patient that I didn't know the first thing about diagnosing or treating because this isn't taught in medical school, even to this day. This huge issue that affects 40% of people who come to see the doctor in outpatient care is just simply not taught. So when I met this patient, she was a 37-year-old woman who had been referred from another university because she was having an average of one bowel movement per month. And…yes, that's what I said. I mean, I'd never heard of such a severe disruption. And she had already had almost every diagnostic test. The reason that she was sent to us is that we did very specialized testing of the muscle contractions and the nerve impulses in the large intestine. And my department chair and I were completely convinced that test was going to be abnormal because what other explanation was possible or so we thought. And this woman was taking four different laxatives at double the usual doses and it wasn't doing a thing. So we knew this test was going to be abnormal. But we were very surprised and perplexed when that test was perfectly normal also. And we just threw up our hands and it was left to me to do the exit interview with this woman and just basically tell her she was going to have to live with it.

I didn't want to just walk in and tell her she was going to have to live with it and walk out. So I asked her about stress, knowing it was going to be a waste of time because everybody else had asked her about stress and she didn't have any. She was happily married, she had two nice kids, she enjoyed her job. And then I asked her about, well, were you under any stress earlier? Thinking, well, maybe something happened two years ago when her illness first started.

And she interpreted the question to mean way earlier. And she said, well, my father molested me. And when I heard that, I didn't know what to say because I had no training in asking people about childhood abuse. I had no experience with it. I was worried that if I asked her too many questions about it, it might make her very emotional and cause her a lot of pain to have to discuss that. But I didn't know what else to do. And so I fell back on my early training, which was take a history, find out the details, get the exact story of what happened. So that's what I did. And she seemed to be perfectly calm about it. I mean, she was describing what happened to her in the same tone of voice you'd use to read a grocery list.

And it turned out that her father had sexually abused her hundreds of times, up to the age of 12. And then he stopped. And for the next 25 years, nobody touched her against her will. So I'm sitting there thinking, this can't possibly be relevant. I mean, she's been away from this horrible, horrible event for 25 years how can it possibly be connected to this very severe physical illness that she has? I didn't think that was possible, but I knew of a psychiatrist at UCLA that was certified in internal medicine as well that had an interest in patients like this. So I thought at least I've got something I can do for this patient. At least we can maybe help her live with this condition a little better.

So I arranged for the patient to see the psychiatrist, Harriet Kaplan, and forgot all about her for the next several months, until I ran into Dr. Kaplan in an elevator. And just to make conversation, I said, whatever happened to that patient that I referred to you? And she said, oh, I haven't seen her in a few weeks. She's fine now. And that just upended my world.

Because the idea that you could alleviate a really serious physical condition just by talking to somebody for, in her case, an hour a week for 10 weeks is what it worked out to be. That was impossible as far as I was concerned. I was in the eighth year of my formal training and nobody had ever mentioned that such a thing was possible- just completely shocked me. But I decided, if I want to be a complete doctor, I should know a little more about this because if I've seen one patient with this condition, I might see a few more over the course of my career. So I prevailed on Dr. Kaplan to teach me her framework for how she thought about this kind of illness and how she approached it, what kinds of questions she asked, and over the next year and a half of my training before I went into private practice in Oregon, learned the basics, never thinking I would use it very much. And now we're 7,000 plus patients later.

Ashley James (31:21.962)

Did you follow up with that patient to hear her side of the story or like how do we know that she is having healthy bowel movements now?

Dr. David Clarke (31:33.769)

Well, that's a good question, but she was welcome to return either to me or to Dr. Kaplan at any time and never needed it. She was, according to Dr. Kaplan, she was even able to stop taking all of the laxatives. It basically went all the way back to normal. It was like my patient with the attacks of severe dizziness and vomiting, who in her case, didn't even need 10 weeks. I mean, just in the course of, one 50-minute conversation, that was the end of her condition.

Ashley James (32.12:990)

God bless you. Just the intuition you had to listen, even though it was uncomfortable, and to get curious and ask questions and to want to explore this. There's so many doctors out there that would have shied away from that. And you leaned in towards it and look what it's achieved. Look how many people you've helped and how many people you're helping. I'm just so ecstatic for the work that you're doing.

Dr. David Clarke (32:41.931)

Thank you. Well, it turned out to be among the most rewarding in my practice, to be able to alleviate someone's serious physical condition just by talking to them. Sometimes your best medical instrument is your brain and what it knows. And we don't necessarily always need the high technology that was, frankly, heavily used in two-thirds of my practice.

But the other one third, being able to see people recognize what was happening, being able to make the connections to stresses that were often not obvious at all. We had to do some real searching to find what the connections were that were making people ill. But it was just tremendous to be able to do that. And I've seen this with other doctors too.

We have a course on our website, the that you mentioned earlier that some doctors in a medium-sized city that I worked with, took the course, just three of them and their psychologist they collaborated with. Took the course at first, and it just transformed their practice. They suddenly the 40% of patients who had been a tremendous source of frustration for them.

They couldn't help them, they didn't know what to do. The patients were truly physically ill in a variety of ways, but the doctors, after looking for biological explanations and not finding any, didn't know what to do next. So after they took the course, then they knew what to look for, just as I'd learned from Dr. Kaplan. And all of a sudden, these patients started getting better. And one of the doctors took me aside at a conference and said, these ideas, have put the joy back into my work. That was wonderful to hear. And then three years later, it had spread. They had such enthusiasm for this that it spread from the original three doctors to now, as of a year ago, 72 doctors are using these ideas.

Ashley James (34.55.521)

Well, I want to keep spreading that. Everyone who's listening, share this with your doctor. This is something they could also be trained in. I think every doctor should be trained in this. What did you say the percentage was of people who come into the doctor's office? What percentage was psychophysiologic?

Dr. David Clarke (35:18.093)

A review article that looked at that question in 32 different studies from two dozen countries around the world and the average was about 40% that had real body symptoms but no organ disease or structural injury to explain it. So it's about 20% of the adult population or 50 million people in the United States alone.

Ashley James (35:45.756)

Well, the pharmaceutical companies do not want that to get out because they would get a significant pay cut if like 20% of adults were able to resolve their issues by getting to the root cause of their stress and managing it.

Dr. David Clarke (36:04.832)

Yes, it's definitely going to change medical practice once these ideas become common knowledge. Even better news is now that we have gold standard science that backs up the anecdotes that I'm sharing with you. We have randomized controlled trials. In addition to the long covid study, there are studies of pain patients from Harvard, from Detroit, from the Boulder back pain study is a great one. And there was one of older male veterans, usually a very difficult group to treat successfully for chronic pain. And they got dramatic results in Los Angeles. And these are controlled trials. This is very solid gold standard science that is showing that if you know how to talk to patients, what issues to bring up and how to discuss them, that you can make a huge difference. The Boulder back pain study, they had three groups of 50 patients each, and the 50 that got the pain relief psychology, which is the sort of umbrella term for this kind of work, they just got eight sessions, two sessions a week for four weeks, and their pain scores dropped dramatically. After an average of 10 years these people had been suffering with low back pain, their pain scores dropped from over four down to one on average in four weeks. It was just astounding. Nothing like this from talk therapy alone had ever been seen in a randomized controlled trial. But it's just exactly what I saw in my office every day.

Ashley James (37:54.738)

And that is so exciting. A lot of the listeners, are familiar with the concept of fight or flight, the sympathetic nervous system response, and then rest and digest, the parasympathetic. But we're not all aware of what are the physiological changes that take place when we get stuck in the sympathetic nervous system response. So like we shunt blood away from the core, away from our organs, our digestion kind of like goes on hiatus, shunt blood away from the logic centers of the brain, but could you kind of walk us through, like, let's say we're stuck for one day, one week, one month, what begins to break down in the body? There's even epigenetic changes that can take place when we are stuck in that stress response for too long.

Dr. David Clarke (38:48.544)

Yes, the differences over time can be, let's say, significant and profound. All the details haven't been completely worked out, but it definitely has long-term impacts. There's increased rates of a variety of conditions.

One of the places you can get the hard and fast data is from the ACEs study. And I should say ACEs studies because there are now scores of them where the stress was inflicted on people as children. ACEs stands for Adverse Childhood Experiences. And these were categorized into 10 different groups in the original paper from 1998. And the more of the 10 that you had the more likely you were to suffer long-term consequences. So some of the long-term consequences are psychological and behavioral. For example, depression, suicide, intravenous drug abuse, alcoholism, obesity. But there are also organ disease impacts as well. There's higher incidences of heart disease, cancer, diabetes, autoimmune disease. And the working theory at this point is that stress in children turns on the inflammatory system in the body, has effects on the immune system, and that chronic inflammation is what leads to the damage in what we call the end organs, the heart, the circulatory system, the fat tissue, and produces these long-term effects on the body. My particular focus is not so much the organ diseases as it is the processing of signals that are coming from the body and being interpreted as painful by the brain. Again, coming back to that idea of the phantom limb syndrome that the brain is interpreting signals from the body as being painful. And that if we can help people understand the stresses that have changed the circuits in the brain, we can change them back. The Boulder Back Pain Study included, as part of the work that they did, scans of the brain. And what they found was that the pain relief psychotherapy actually changed the brain back to a healthy pattern. It rearranged those circuits so that was why the pain was relieved.

Ashley James (41:43.710)

Many years ago, I read the book Healing Back Pain by Dr. John Sarno, who is just fascinating. I'm sure he would have loved the work you're doing. Back pain that was not explained by scans. There was nothing on the scan to say that it could be causing his back pain. And what he saw was that the brain was creating ischemia. For example, the quadriceps lumborum, which is like the low back muscles would be grabbing. And so ischemia, for those who don't know, it's like cutting off blood flow. So you can imagine if like maybe you sit on the toilet too long, you get pins and needles, it's really painful, right? If you continue to sit there, and then when you get up that pins and needles, it can be like very, very painful. But what he saw was that there was definitely something going on where the brain was grabbing ahold of and squeezing and making almost like a spasm in muscles like the quadriceps lumborum. And to the touch, when you examine it would feel cold. Like it would seem like almost white and cold, like there was less blood flow in the area. And this definitely sounds like stress to me, but specifically when they were shoulding themselves, like I should like my job, I should like this, and even though they hated it. So if they really hated something, it was very stressful in their life, but they were kind of suppressing their feelings around it, and when they suppressed their emotions around it, wouldn't listen, that's when it would present as this ischemia in the muscles. And if they could just listen and ask their body, like what is this, I'm listening, what emotion is present, what emotion is present.

And as they began to feel it, the pain would subside and the muscle would release. And I ended up using that technique with my clients and a lot of them had a really great success, which was just mind blowing. But again, the brain is in the body are affecting each other and this is exactly what you do in your work. And I love that there's so much science now behind it that we can get

other doctors on board, because man, if we could help that, like between 20 and 40% of those people that you talked about that are, you know, coming to the doctor, going to the clinic and they have pain or discomfort or disease or they have symptoms and there's no physiological explanation, then instead of just putting, here's some pills, go home, I have nothing for you, instead of giving up on them we can actually go deeper and find the root cause.

Dr. David Clarke (44:39.772)

Yes, it's very exciting. I should mention that on that same website, the, there is a 12 item self-assessment quiz for people that are listening and wondering if perhaps they might have this condition themselves. It's arranged so that the more questions to which you answer yes, the more likely it is that a psychophysiologic disorder or PPD for short is responsible for your symptoms. So that's something easy that people can do. But you're absolutely right in the approach that you took. Many of my patients have, probably a majority of them have experienced adverse childhood experiences and we can't go back and change those, but we can change the long-term impacts. We can make a difference for the effects that those ACEs have had on people in the present day. One of those effects has to do with the emotions. Many of my patients have had anger, fear, shame, grief, or guilt that they're not fully aware of because they've repressed it. But if we can help people connect with those emotions, put them into words, then they can alleviate them. The more of those emotions that are put into words, either written or spoken, the less they need to express themselves via the body. And that's an approach that's helped a lot of people. One of the techniques that I use to help people connect with these unrecognized emotions is to have them imagine themselves as a butterfly on the wall of their childhood home. And to imagine also that a child they care about, whether it's their own child or someone else's, is in that home and is having to cope with whatever adversity there is in that home, while the patient, as a butterfly on the wall, is only allowed to watch and to see what's happening. And this is a very difficult exercise, as you can imagine, but it helps people recognize much more accurately the reality of what they went through because so many people, when they look back, they have a strong tendency to minimize how bad it was. And until they see the reality of it, until they're able to feel the emotions that would be appropriate for someone who is going through this adversity, then those emotions are going to be locked away with the only outlet being into their bodies.

Ashley James (47:32.108)

Wow. I just totally went there. I had my son in my childhood home and I'm already seeing some stuff. I haven't seen before. That's a very interesting exercise. 

Dr. David Clarke (47:43.045)

It’s been very, very useful for my patients, that one. And it's not easy and I see the facial expressions of my patients often change dramatically when I ask them to do this, but it is so useful in cutting through the layers of repression.

Ashley James (48:06.343)

Repression, like you said, we minimize it, or justify it. But if we put someone we care about as like a child in that situation that we were in, and then watch, and then we have empathy for that child, it's like, oh, that empathy is actually for me when I was going through it. Right.

Dr. David Clarke (48:27.585)

That's exactly right.

Ashley James (48:29.884)

Right. Do you have any other exercises that you like to share?

Dr. David Clarke (48:34.165)

Yes, for reaching the emotions, there's one that's kind of completely different, that you cast your mind back to a difficult person or event or situation from the past and just think about that for a moment and then start writing down words and phrases that come to mind about that person, event or situation, just as fast as you can, trying not to worry about spelling or grammar or syntax or whether it makes any sense, just to scribble down every word or phrase that comes to mind about this past event. And keep writing for five or ten minutes, however long it takes, until you feel like you've got every conceivable idea out of your head. And the reason for writing them down so fast is to bypass your cognitive brain. We don't want you thinking about this. We wanna reach into your subconscious and just pull out whatever is boiling and bubbling away in there and get it onto the page. And then once you're done with that, take a look at it, think about it, and start writing complete sentences about what it all means. Try to figure out why those particular words and phrases wound up on the page and start writing complete sentences about the meaning of what you scribbled down. And that is another way to tap into emotions that you might not have been aware of before.

Ashley James (50:16.378)

There are so many different kinds of therapy out there, right? Some types of therapies might be better suited for certain personalities, but as far as your experience with helping people, for example, with chronic pain or PPD, psycho-physiologic issues, do you have like a top three or top five types of therapy, like cognitive behavioral therapy, or, can you say like, oh, these ones have the best results in helping people get to the other side of it and then they resolve their symptoms.

Dr. David Clarke (51:03.323)

Yes, that's a really important question because the new form of treatment that's been developed by a number of us around the country and overseas, what I call pain relief psychotherapy, basically covers three very closely related types of treatment. 

The first is pain reprocessing therapy, which is relatively new, but also straightforward. Straightforward for patients to apply to themselves and for psychotherapists to learn. And then the next one is emotional awareness and expression therapy, which is what I use in combination with the pain reprocessing therapy, but it's emotional awareness and expression is the one that I rely on the most heavily, particularly since the patients that I see tend to be the most complex and severely afflicted and they need kind of a higher level of delving into those repressed emotions and then the third closely related type is intensive short-term dynamic psychotherapy or ISTDP, which is strongly associated with Clinicians based in Halifax, Nova Scotia and it's not as widely available in the United States.

But all three of those share a lot of characteristics. There are chapters about them in our textbook, Psychophysiologic Disorders, that I edited with three other people. And that book is written without jargon. So people who like to read about science even if they're not a healthcare professional, can perfectly easily read that and learn about these forms of treatment.

And it turns out that because we are shifting people's attention toward, from their bodies to stress, because we are delving into repressed emotions, and there are two other whole categories we haven't talked about yet, but because we are focusing on those things, the results are far better than they are with other forms of psychotherapy, because you're right, there are hundreds of different kinds of psychotherapy. 

The dominant one is cognitive behavioral therapy, but it has been scientifically compared with these new forms of treatment and it falls far short, unfortunately. The Los Angeles Veterans Hospital Pain Study, for example, with cognitive behavioral therapy was given to those veterans, only 5% reached the goal for pain relief that they had set before doing the study.

With emotional awareness and expression therapy, it was 42% achieved the goal. So a vast difference, an eightfold difference, just because of a different kind of talking that the patients were getting, that it was delving into emotions and getting people to focus on sources of stress. This is really new. This is not widely available, but there are books about it, as I mentioned, my first book is called They Can't Find Anything Wrong. The Psychophysiologic Disorders textbook is written by 16 different people that had found their way to these same principles. And there's an app now called Curable that I highly recommend. It's taken all of the best ideas in this field and put them into a user interface that you can have on your smartphone or computer.

Ashley James (54:53.346)

Oh, very cool. Well, I'm going to make sure the links to everything that you just discussed is going to be in the show notes of today's podcast at learntruehealth.comCurable app. That's really neat. So someone's listening to this somewhere in the world, not in Canada, like not on the East coast of Canada, so they wouldn't necessarily have access to the ISTDP. Is that what you say? Yep. And how would they get access to all this? Do you have a list of practitioners that can work with them remotely?

Dr. David Clarke (55:29.456)

Yes, we do. On the website, we have a practitioner directory and there are practitioners there from around the world who have found their way to these concepts and have taken the available training in it. And there are lots of resources now for professionals who want to learn how to do this. We have the online webinar course on the website. There are other practitioners who provide training in this. The Dr. Abbass who does the ISTDP is regularly traveling around the world giving trainings to professionals. I do presentations on this topic for professionals all the time. A couple of weeks ago, I did 13 hours of presentations in four cities in seven days. So we are definitely trying to get the word out.

And there's going to be a new course in January. I'm very excited about this one. I finished filming for it in late September and the video production company is furiously working away on editing all the footage and we're planning to release it in January. It's going to be a really advanced course about challenging cases, but again, going to be done completely without jargon so that anybody can comprehend it.

Ashley James (56:55.605)

So this course, anyone can take it, but any kind of doctor or practitioner should definitely take it.

Dr. David Clarke (57:05.872)

Yes, I think not only medical professionals, but mental health professionals, because the medical professionals don't learn the psychology of this condition, and the mental health professionals are not taught the particular kinds of issues that can make people physically ill as opposed to having mental health challenges. That's why the psychiatrist at the West Coast University failed to diagnose my patient with the extreme dizziness and vomiting because he didn't know the kinds of issues to look for in somebody who was physically ill. So that's what we teach in the courses. And that's why it's a giant blind spot in the healthcare system that 50 million Americans fall into, because they don't have a biomedical cause for the doctors to find. They don't have a classical mental health condition for the mental health professionals to find and deal with. They kind of fall right in the middle and neither group of professionals really feels like they have the expertise to deal with it. But that absolutely can change and we've seen it change in numerous locations around the world.

Ashley James (58:24.879)

But it's important to grasp that this happens to relatively healthy people. Someone who's listening might go, I don't think I have any trauma. I feel normal. I feel emotionally normal, day to day. But someone could be bumping along in life and then there might be a trigger they're not aware of and then they start having these symptoms and they could be relatively healthy people. And like you said, your patients are strong. They're resilient people. And it just happens, it just starts. It can just start, like for the long haul people, there was like a very known trigger, but when you go deeper, there might've also been adverse childhood experiences. There might also have been stress that they were suppressing emotions that they were suppressing and it compounds.

Dr. David Clarke (59:28.120)

Yes, this is a condition that can happen to anybody. Most of my patients were not aware of the level of stress that they were coping with, mostly because they'd been coping with stress their whole lives. And so it just didn't seem like it was out of the ordinary. I've had countless, countless patients who have told me that their childhood wasn't really that bad. And then when we get into the discussion about it, we begin to see that, well, yes, there were some things that were pretty bad. And then when I do the exercise of having them imagine themselves watching their own kid try to cope with the same stuff, and they get this horrified expression on their faces because they've never truly appreciated before just how tough it really was. I think of my patients like champion weightlifters who are suddenly being asked to carry a weight that's 50 million Americans fall into, because they don't have a biomedical cause for the doctors to find.

They don't have a classical mental health condition for the mental health professionals to find and deal with. They kind of fall right in the middle and neither group of professionals really feels like they have the expertise to deal with it. But that absolutely can change and we've seen it change in numerous locations around the world.

Ashley James (58:24.879)

But it's important to grasp that this happens to relatively healthy people. Someone who's listening might go, I don't think I have any trauma. I feel normal. I feel emotionally normal, day to day. But someone could be bumping along in life and then there might be a trigger they're not aware of and then they start having these symptoms and they could be relatively healthy people. And like you said, your patients are strong. They're resilient people. And it just happens, it just starts. It can just start, like for the long haul people, there was like a very known trigger, but when you go deeper, there might've also been adverse childhood experiences. There might also have been stress that they were suppressing emotions that they were suppressing and it compounds.

Dr. David Clarke (59:28.120)

Yes, this is a condition that can happen to anybody. Most of my patients were not aware of the level of stress that they were coping with, mostly because they'd been coping with stress their whole lives. And so it just didn't seem like it was out of the ordinary. I've had countless, countless patients who have told me that their childhood wasn't really that bad. And then when we get into the discussion about it, we begin to see that, well, yes, there were some things that were pretty bad. And then when I do the exercise of having them imagine themselves watching their own kid try to cope with the same stuff, and they get this horrified expression on their faces because they've never truly appreciated before just how tough it really was. I think of my patients like champion weightlifters who are suddenly being asked to carry a weight that's 50 pounds more than the world record for their weight class, that would break down the strongest person. Their bodies would break down, they would feel like failures, they would not know why they couldn't carry the load anymore. It comes as a big surprise that there's stress involved. 

People have trouble imagining that stress alone could make you physically ill like this. So yes, it comes as a big surprise to people. And the level of illness that you can get from this, that's one of the myths is that it's going to be mild. Absolutely not. I've had many patients in the hospital with this. One of my patients I was asked to see after she'd been in the hospital 70 days, she was getting morphine around the clock, in doses you would normally give to somebody with widespread cancer. You would never convince her in a million years that her pain was due to stress, but it was, we uncovered the stress. She was out of the hospital in a week, and she was off of all the opioids in 30 days.

Ashley James (1:01:44.794)

Amazing. I have friends in my life, I'm thinking of two of them specifically who have had surgeries because of chronic pain, multiple surgeries, and the pain persists beyond. And I've, you know, I'm going to be sharing this episode with them. And I can imagine those who are listening are thinking of their friends and family who have chronic pain. And it's not just chronic pain. Like you said, that there could be the woman who had the vomiting or had another woman who had the constipation. It can be these odd illnesses that don't have an explanation. And but sometimes they get a doctor who says, I know what to do. Let's cut this body part out. That's the problem. And then the problem continues to persist and now they have less body parts.

Dr. David Clarke (1:02:35.068)

Yes, that's unfortunately true. And there are lots of non-pain symptoms, dizziness, trouble swallowing, visual disturbances, seizures that are not due to epilepsy, chronic coughing, difficulty breathing, all kinds of gastrointestinal symptoms, as we mentioned, problems with the pelvis, with the menstrual cycle, with the genitals, with bladder spasms, numbness and tingling, certain kinds of rashes can happen from this. The only common denominator tends to be that people with this condition have more than one symptom at a time, more than one location in the body, or the symptoms can move from place to place. They don't have to, some people just have the one symptom, but the more symptoms you have and the more different locations they are, the more likely it is that PPD is responsible.

Ashley James (1:03:33.542)

Do you have any way to measure stress? Like for example, heart rate variability, is there any way that you could hook someone up to a machine? I know there's blood tests that measure cortisol, but is there any way that you would say you could measure their chronic stress and go, oh right, now we can put this device on you and we can see your stress lowering?

Dr. David Clarke (1:03:57.216)

Yes, I really wish there was. I wish there was a blood test for this condition. If we had a blood test for this, then you can bet that every health care professional would learn how to diagnose and treat this condition, because we could get a blood test for it. And we could see, oh, your PPD level is high. We need to find your stresses, and we're going to make you better because of that. But unfortunately, we don't have that. And I don't expect to see that anytime soon. But when you think about it, because we don't have a blood test, it means that we should spend even more time training healthcare professionals how to figure out what's going on, because it's not so simple without the blood test. But people who have had stress for a long period of time, they get accustomed to it. And when you ask them, do you feel stressed or depressed or anxious, frequently they say no, because they've been living with this for years.

One of my patients, my personal record patient, had PPD symptoms for 79 years. And even that patient, once we uncovered the stress and helped her with it, she got about 60 or 70% better, even after all those years.

Ashley James (1:05:17.027)

Amazing, but, yes, you become habituated to your stress. You become habituated to your environment. So, yes, of course. 

Now this pain, the typical chronic pain that persists, does it come and go? Is there any commonalities? Is it always there? Does it come and go? Does it act almost like a migraine that comes on and there's telltale signs that's coming, or all of the above?

Dr. David Clarke (1:05:45.867)

Yes, all of the above. Everybody's different. And migraines definitely are part of this, fibromyalgia, irritable bowel, all of those are part of this spectrum. But everybody's different. But we definitely, if the patient's symptoms are moving around, if they're highly variable, from with respect to any kind of triggers, then we get suspicious that PPD is responsible. It's really hard to have an organ disease or structural damage cause symptoms that migrate from place to place, or that are highly variable in terms of what triggers them. But I should go back to the point you made earlier about having surgery for this. It comes up most frequently in low back pain because a majority of people over 40 and a large number of people younger than 40 have abnormalities in their spine on an MRI. And this is in people with no symptoms whatsoever, it's just part of the normal aging process. But if you have PPD related back pain and you go to the doctor and they image your spine one way or another, and they find these age-related abnormalities, it is very tempting to say, okay, you've got pain, you've got this abnormality there, let's go in and do surgery and fix this and that's probably going to alleviate your pain. But it turns out that the success rate of surgery for pain is about 30%. If you have evidence of nerve damage, then it's better. But most patients don't have any evidence that they have a damaged nerve. And if they get surgery for back pain, the success rates are terrible. And there was a study from the 90s where they took a whole bunch of patients, I think it was 87 patients who had lumbar spine surgery, low back surgery, and looked at the success rate of the surgery. And they compared it with their ACE score, the adverse childhood experience burden that these individuals had suffered. And it turned out that if you had no ACEs, your success rate from the surgery was pretty good. It was about 95%. But if you were in the top range of people with a lot of ACEs, the success rate for the surgery fell to 15%.

Ashley James (1:08:23.029)

I've never opt into a surgery that had only a 15% success rate, but I guess if you're in chronic pain, you might roll the dice, you know, if it meant, if that was the only answer, right. And now, now you have the answer and we need to get this information out there. Please, everyone listening.

Share with your doctors, with your practitioners, with your friends and family. Share this episode with those you care about and everyone. If we can get this out, we could be part of the movement to completely change the way medicine is practiced and the way people are helped. We got to get this information out there. I am so, so thankful for what you do. And I said earlier, God bless you. And I mean it. God bless you for the work that you're doing.

Dr. David Clarke (1:09:20.637)

Thank you.

Ashley James (1:09:21.704)

Absolutely. Now you had said that there's two other categories we haven't even touched on. Can we, can we touch on those?

Dr. David Clarke (1:09:28.571)

You bet. This is a long-term impact of ACEs. And the first category that we did talk about was repressed emotions. That turns out to be the most challenging to diagnose in most cases. But the other two are stressful personality traits that grow directly out of the child's attempts to cope with their adversity. And the third one is triggers that are going on in the present day that are in some way linked to the traumas or stressors of the past. And the personality traits that can be stressful include the most fundamental and important is low self-esteem. This is the common denominator, and my patients who've survived ACEs is that they are made to feel like second-rate human beings, or in some cases, made to feel like worthless pieces of crap. Other personality traits that are kind of linked to that include being excessively self-critical, much more critical of yourself than you would be of others, for example. Having limited self-care skills, people who are devoted to the care of everybody else in their world, but have difficulty putting themselves on the list of those they take care of. So if you ask them, what do they do for fun? They have trouble coming up with very much.

People who are perfectionists, people who are living on high alert all the time, people who suffer from anxiety or depression, people who are focused on pleasing others, who tend to choose narcissistic partners to be in relationships with, or partners who have significant issues or problems that need to be solved. That's, a direct outgrowth from growing up in a home where there were problems in that home and the child trying to survive, trying to make the best of that situation, ends up focusing on trying to solve those problems. So it's not a big surprise when they end up choosing relationship partners for themselves that need a lot of support and they end up in relationships that are not mutually supportive, not balanced, but where the giving from them is not balanced by getting back from the partner. Other ones, self-sacrificing to an excessive degree, difficulty setting boundaries, not being very assertive for your needs, fear of abandonment, need for external validation. And in more extreme cases, you get into coping mechanisms to try to deal with the emotional pain of all this.

And those can include eating disorders, can include self-mutilation behavior, can include all kinds of addictions, not just to substances, but to behaviors like work, sex, food, gambling, exercise, even shopping I've seen in one or two cases. So all of these, as you can imagine, are highly stressful.

And people struggle to make changes. A lot of psychotherapists just accept them as largely a given and don't even try to intervene. But when people see where these came from, that one of the questions I'll ask people is, who taught you these false assumptions about yourself that you need to be the caregiver for everybody, for example, or that you are a second-rate human being. Who taught you this and how did they teach you? And when people can understand where that came from, it truly facilitates making changes.

Ashley James (01:13:36.226)

Oh, man, that is such a good question. Wow. You describe so many people I know and some of me, I was feeling called out there for a sec. I was like, wow. I've done a lot of personal growth work through the years and I can see where I have overcome actually a lot of that. And my parents did the best they could, but I definitely had to go back and work on stuff and heal stuff and I mean, I'm seeing so much of this, exactly what you described, in so many people. 

Dr. David Clarke (01:14:13.071)

Yes, those are the most difficult. I was just working with a patient last week. Her parents clearly meant well, meant the best, but they created an environment of extreme pressure without realizing what it was doing to their child.

Ashley James (01:14:37.175)

Yes. It's not always obvious, right? Emotional abuse or mental abuse. That's the hardest because it doesn't leave a bruise, a broken bone. You know, we can say, Oh, I didn't have abuse as a child. My childhood was fine because there wasn't an alcoholic throwing bottles at my head, like it's not always like Hollywood style, right? And like you said, we do a lot of times we'll repress, we'll justify, well kind of almost blank out. I've talked to people who they sort of don't remember most of their childhood, like big chunks of it, until you start really talking about it and then they start remembering.

Dr. David Clarke (01:15:21.962)

Yes, it can be very difficult to recognize. And so many of my patients have told me, no, my childhood was okay, and then we start talking about it and they start remembering. 

We just have this conversation. One of my patients, we talked for well into my lunch hour because I wasn't finding the stress. And he finally just stopped and said, the only time I ever got praise from my parents was when I did something better than my brothers and sisters could do it. And he had three siblings and they were all very accomplished kids, academically, extracurriculars, athletically. It was not easy to do something better than those siblings could do it. So he ended up rarely, if ever, being made to feel good about himself. And it had a lot of those consequences that I mentioned. He was in a very bad relationship. He was addicted to his work. And he was having all kinds of physical symptoms.

Ashley James (01:16:30.773)

If we were friends with that kid growing up, we wouldn't think, oh, my friend's really abused. Like that's a really bad household. We wouldn't imagine that's abuse, but internally, what's going on? The stress levels over time and that self judgment and like you said, the poor self esteem. So, so I think it's worth it for anyone, especially if they're having health issues, right? And you said this even affects immune. So if someone is having immune problems, always sick, always catching every cold, it's worth diving in and doing the work. I mean, what's the work? It's not going to hurt, right? There's no negative side effect of self-personal growth, other than you might have to shake up a few relationships, learn how to enforce healthy boundaries. But transformation, at the end, only good comes from it.

Dr. David Clarke (01:17:29.395)

Yes, all these issues are worth assessing and treating for their own sake. And I have patients who say, well, I'm not sure that these issues are contributing to my pain or other symptoms. And I'll just say, well, let's work on them anyway. They deserve attention for their own sake. And we'll see if your physical symptoms improve in response to that. And a very large number of patients will experience physical improvement as well.

Ashley James (01:18:04.282)

Is this something that you're going to be able to have colleges, universities start to teach? Is this something that we can get into the curriculum?

Dr. David Clarke (01:18:14.488)

We are working on it. I taught a class at the University of Rochester last year and I've just been invited to teach it again. I taught for 10 years at Arizona State. I taught at Cummings Graduate Institute in Arizona. I've taught a class on this since the late 1990s at Pacific University here in Oregon. So I'm teaching in the medical school now, short module on this topic. So it's growing. I mean, when I think back to 15 years ago, in terms of widespread acceptance in the healthcare community, especially the educational community, we were really nowhere. But today, 2023, it seems to be growing exponentially, to be honest.

Ashley James (01:19:06.164)

Good. Well, we need to get it to where it's in the meme, to where it's common. 

Dr. David Clarke (01:19:12.807)

Now you are helping with that Ashley, I appreciate it.

Ashley James (1:19:15.743)

Absolutely. And I hope my listeners will as well. I mean, I am on fire about this.

Dr. David Clarke (01:19:20.419)

I should finish before I forget about that third long-term impact of the ACEs, which are the triggers. Just say a few words about that. These triggers are people, situations, or events in the present day that are in some way linked to the past. And the most common example is someone who was an ACE perpetrator, someone who created the adversity for my patient as a child who is still in the patient's life today. And because of some of the other personality traits that I mentioned, it can be very difficult to set boundaries with such a person, to assert yourself with such a person, and to limit your interactions with that individual to the point where they're not making you physically ill. But it starts with just realizing that this person is still creating issues for you and is triggering for you. It turns out that patient who was having the attacks of dizziness and vomiting, who was hospitalized so many times, it was her emotionally and verbally abusive mother that was responsible for the attacks. All of the attacks, it turned out, were linked to interactions with that mother who had been verbally and emotionally abusive, starting at the age of three with that patient and continuing for the next 47 years. The patient is now 50 years old, mom is in her 70s, and mom is still doing it. But the patient, having experienced mom doing this since she was three, it just felt normal to her. She was completely blind to the idea that it was triggering her episodes, even though there were giant screaming clues that were saying exactly that, which is what made it so straightforward to diagnose her, let's put it that way.

Ashley James (01:21:24.955)

Well, that's the habituation. When I remember that moment somewhere in my early teenage years, when I realized that my household that I grew up in isn't a carbon copy around the world. I thought everyone did what my parents did and lived like we lived. And then started to go over at friend's house to see. Wow, other parents act really differently, have different rules, have different boundaries or no boundaries and different communication styles. Some are abusive, some aren't, some are very more loving than my parents are outwardly loving, some are less. And just realizing that the person you have in your whole life, if it's an abuser, we go, this is normal. This is who they are. This is normal. 

Dr. David Clarke (01:22:18.799)

Yes, none of us has a parallel life to compare ourselves with.

Ashley James (01:22:21.355)

Right, exactly, and I love that exercise with the butterfly where you're putting someone else in your shoes, because then you go, wait a second, if you have a child, you can do this. If not, you can think of someone you really care about as a child, but putting them in that situation that you were in, oh man, I just wanna go save that child as soon as possible.

Dr. David Clarke (01:22:46.013)

Yes, one of my favorite stories about that is I get some interesting consultations because my name is out there and one of them was a Hollywood type actress and I found myself in a very pleasant bar having a conversation with this impossibly good looking person who was telling me she had suffered physical symptoms in many locations in her body for 20 years.

We got around to talking about her childhood and it turned out that her parents were verbally and emotionally abusive of each other but not her and she was the peacemaker and she was the only child so it kind of fell on her to try to keep the peace. When she's eight years old the parents get divorced but unfortunately, they kept living in the same house They slept in separate bedrooms, but they lived in the same house.

So for her, nothing changed. But she was telling me this story and every other sentence was, this didn't bother me, it wasn't that bad, there was no abuse, they didn't drink too much, I could deal with it, I'm over it now, I'm out of that household for a long time. And she just was not accepting that this situation was sufficient to account for her 20 years of illness. Until I told her to do the butterfly on the wall experiment with her beloved niece, whom she spent a lot of time with, who was six years old at the time, and just said, imagine your niece is in this household, and you're there watching your niece try to cope with your parents for, let's say, just a week, how is that going to be for you? And she just stopped talking and stared at me for probably two minutes, but it seemed like longer than that because she was a very verbal person, as you can imagine, and just stared at me. And I just let her stare. You know, I was going to let her process this thought experiment. And then finally she said, ‘At the end of that week, I would shoot myself.' And that was the first time that she realized just how bad it had really been.

Ashley James (01:25:10.501)

We love our parents. And if it's not that outwardly like, all the alcoholics throwing bottles at your head or whatever, like if it isn't this very stereotypical, that's definitely abuse, right? But if it's something like she said, well, they weren't yelling at me, I know they loved me and they meant well, as children, and then when we grow up, we love our parents and we in some ways want to protect them because we don't want to necessarily say, oh, they were abusers, that they're the cause of my pain. Like that would almost feel like betrayal, saying something that negative to someone you care about. And the thing is, what we have to get is they're human. They did the best they could with the resources they had. Of course they didn't mean to hurt you. Unfortunately there's some very sick people out there, not the majority, but there are some who actually did mean to hurt people. However, if you love your parents and you know they loved you, we want to say they did the best they could. They loved you the way they could. And unfortunately, the way it turned out, it was a stress on the body. And there's stuff to process. There's ways that our mind protected ourselves. We justified, we coped, we suppressed, but we have to process it, and we can do therapy and still love our parents and honor and respect them while also admitting that the experiences we had were traumatic and that they hurt us.

Dr. David Clarke (01:26:53.943)

Yes, and that leads directly into a key idea that I think a lot of therapists don't emphasize nearly as much as they should, which is that when you finally recognize the reality of what you went through, you have to also give yourself credit for having gone through that. I like to use the analogy of being born on the far side of Mount Everest or born in the middle of a dangerous jungle, that through no fault of your own, you found yourself in this very difficult place. And again, even when the parents are doing this from a place of love or doing the best that they can, from the child's perspective, it can be, far side of the Himalayas or middle of the Amazon. And I want my patients to give themselves credit for having endured that. It takes truly heroic levels of perseverance to pull yourself through these situations when you're a child. And you need to respect that. You need to recognize that you're truly meeting the dictionary definition of heroic when you've come through an environment like this. A hero in our society is somebody who's overcome a difficult mental or physical challenge for a good cause. And my ace surviving patients have done exactly that. And it is a truly critical foundation for their future recovery that they be able to think of themselves in these terms, that they respect what that kid did to get through that situation. And once they can do that, once they can engineer that 180 degree flip in their self-image, all kinds of other things change. It makes it vastly easier, for example, to make changes in those stressful personality traits that I was mentioning earlier. My patient who was the actress, she was in a dysfunctional relationship with a boyfriend at that time, one of those unbalanced, giving way more than you're getting back kind of relationships. She dumped that guy the next day. She began building her self-esteem. And a year and a half later, she met the love of her life.

Ashley James (01:29:20.439)

Oh, that's awesome.

Coming back to this idea that it's not all in your head, there's physical experiences, the body has been changed physically, but the stressors are something we need to process. So it's the heart and the mind and that we can see and now measure results. So we can see and measure, like for example, with the long haul, that they had shortness of breath. It's hard to measure brain fog and fatigue, but you can measure shortness of breath. You can measure, there's certain things that you could measure before the study began to see that they were physiologically impaired by the long haul and other people like that woman you talked about that sparked much of this, the woman who pooped once a month, which I can't even imagine. And it was very clear, you could definitely measure that. It is a physical thing that's happening. And by healing the heart and the mind and going through the process of that.

So it's not taking a drug, it's not taking another antidepressant, it's not another, just one drug after another, one surgery after another. Those are bringing the wrong tools to the table, right? Like they say, a carpenter, every problem is going to be handled with a hammer, right? Like so when you come to a doctor, he's going to use the tools he has.

Dr. David Clarke (01:31:12.199)

That's right, when your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Ashley James (01:31:16.075)

Right, but this 40% of the people, and you said it was somewhere around 20% of adults, at the time, it's not a nail. Don't bring your hammer anywhere near me, it's not a nail. So the long haul covid sufferers who went through the study and went through the therapy, how much therapy did they receive?

Dr. David Clarke (01:31:45.287)

Well, most of their improvement took place after just four weeks. So these are people who had been ill for an average of 40 weeks. And after four weeks of treatment, they achieved the majority of the results that I mentioned earlier. But yes, you're right. It's not that often that we are able to document real biological changes in the body as a result of this. It's more a subjective, internal to the brain, a kind of perception that's going on. But one of my patients had a completely paralyzed stomach. There's a special test called the gastric emptying test or the stomach emptying test where we have them swallow a very slightly radioactive material and we just watch it with a specialized camera and see if the stomach empties it. And we know how fast the stomach is supposed to empty it. And when we did this test on this gentleman, it didn't move at all. It just sat there for two hours and they said, well, we don't need to watch this anymore. We know it's abnormal. So they stopped the test. But I had never seen or heard of somebody with a psychophysiologic complete paralysis of their stomach.

His symptom was vomiting naturally. I mean, if nothing was emptying in the forward direction, it would eventually empty in the backward direction. And I know that it was psychophysiologic because we uncovered the stress in his case, successfully treated it, and his eating and digestion went back to normal.

Ashley James (01:33:31.111)

Oh, that's so exciting. But just that we have cases where you can demonstrate through imaging, you can measure and show here's an impairment. We go through four weeks of very specific therapy that's proven to be the most effective so far, right, until something better comes out. But so far, this is the best we've found. And we're always striving for excellence, right? That's the thing, especially in the case of mental health, and I'm just so disappointed that people still practice archaic mental health techniques that have been proven to be insufficient.

I know that not everything's for everyone, right? Sometimes you got to pull out different tools for different personalities, but you found something that is incredibly effective and in a short period of time. 

Dr. David Clarke (01:34:31.329)

Yes, it's really dramatic. I mean, I'm a bit of a statistics nut and there's a statistic that really captures the power of this new pain relief psychology and it's called effect size. And basically what it means is when you apply a treatment to a group, how big an effect did you have? And normally with things like cognitive behavioral therapy or mindfulness-based stress reduction, you get an effect size that gives you a number of 0.2 to 0.5. Those are just the numbers that are associated with this and those are considered small to moderate effects. Rarely do you see anything better than moderate. A large effect would get you a number of 0.8.

The effect size in the Boulder back pain study for Pain Relief Psychology was 1.5. I don't know, if it was a football game, the score would be 150 to 30, something like that. The lead researcher for this was very skeptical. I met with him. Some other people in my organization met with him. And we said, we truly believe, based on our clinical experience, that you are going to get excellent results from this. And he's a psychologist, he knows about pain. He'd been researching pain for several years. And he said, I don't really believe that this is going to happen, but I'm willing to do the study and we'll see what kind of results you get. And he was just blown away.

Ashley James (01:36:26.273)

That's so exciting. So we've talked about people who have this and the things they can do, especially going to your website, and check that out, do the quiz, they can find a practitioner, they could take your courses, they could read your books. What about prevention?

So everyone, it would be good for everyone across the world. We already discussed this to do personal growth work, to dive into our childhood, just learn and forgive and process. It's a joke, life is crazy, can't get it alive. None of us are going to survive this, right? We've all been through something. It's good to process.

So let's just assume everyone is going to take this really seriously and go do some really great therapy and get super healthy mentally, emotionally. What can we do starting today and for the rest of our life to prevent chronic stress? What are the top things? Like you love statistics, so what are the things that are the most impactful? Is it meditation, exercise, breathing, deep breathing? Is it hugging everyone you love for 90 seconds every day? What are the things that are the most important? What are the things that you do to make sure that you stay on top of managing your stress so that it doesn't become this big problem?

Dr. David Clarke (01:38:07.267)

Yes, that's a great question. You can go on the internet and find all kinds of highly valid techniques for reducing your personal stress level. And I have no issue with any of those. I do them myself. I go for walks with my wife along the river that we have here in Portland.

I played soccer as an adult on up to three teams at a time for over 20 years. That was a great one. I ride a bicycle. I do photography. I play chess with my grandchildren. My wife is a fabulous cook. Her meals alone are wonderful for just general stress reduction. All of those things are great and I absolutely recommend them. 

But if you have what could be called deep stress, if you have issues that are the result of long-term impacts of adverse childhood experiences and those have not been recognized, then you are essentially swimming against the tide in trying to reduce your own stress level. There is this tide of long-term impacts that is going to limit your success with all of the stress techniques that I just mentioned. So it's worth the exercise of looking back and taking a serious review of how you might've been impacted as a kid, doing some of the exercises that we've discussed earlier today, and figuring out what some of those long-term impacts might've been. 

The two biggest, the self-esteem, having a realistic sense of your own value in the world, contrary to what you might have been taught as a kid, is very important. And that in turn facilitates the second important part that gets the tide working with you instead of against you, and that is to set aside regular time for self-care. Regular time, every week, ideally several hours if possible, for activity with no purpose but your own joy. What we're looking for is the moral equivalent of finger paints for a four-year-old. The four-year-old doesn't care who sees the finger paintings, that doesn't care about the quality of the work, doesn't care about how many pictures per hour they produce. They just know they're having fun and everybody needs that. 

One of my patients was a champion athlete as a girl, but she did her sport before school, after school, on weekends, starting at the age of four. And she never really got to be a kid. I mean, there was no time to just self-indulgently play, which every child needs. And by missing out on that, she never really learned self-care skills. So now she's in the emergency room at seven in the morning, where I'm looking over her records, where she'd been the entire night getting tested for sudden abdominal pain. Everything was normal. So I'm talking to her about her lifestyle, and she's working full-time. Her husband's working full-time. She's got two kids. She coaches the kids in her sport. She's on the athletic club board of directors. She's driving kids to out-of-state competitions.

She's coaching other people's kids. And I asked her, what do you do for fun? And she had to really think about it. She said, well, you know, maybe every other month I go out to the movies with my husband. That was it. So her treatment was to carve out a regular block of time and her family was 100% behind this idea where she would just do trial and error to learn how to play.

And at first, she's just looking at me, what am I going to do? Because she, age 32, she had no idea how to go out and have fun because she never had in her entire life. But what she ended up doing was going for walks in a park. And that wasn't enough, but while she was walking, she was thinking. And one day she hit on the idea of taking piano lessons, which came as a surprise because she'd never done anything musical before, but she absolutely loved it and her physical symptoms just melted away once she started doing that.

Ashley James (01:43:02.309)

Wow. I love it. I love it so much. Oh, Dr. Clark, you are a godsend to this world in this day and age. So I don't know if you know about me, but I was sick for many years. I had polycystic ovarian syndrome, type two diabetes, chronic adrenal fatigue. So bad. I couldn't process human language in the morning. It was really odd. My husband would talk to me first thing in the morning and it would be like being on Charlie Brown and hearing the parents, he would just be like, whoom, and I would just put my hand up, I can't even understand what you're saying, just hand me four cups of coffee. It was bad, I suffered for many years, and also had chronic infections, and it was wicked. And that's where I found natural medicine and resolved these issues. Also been big into, like I said before, personal growth and working on myself, right? Working through all this stuff. I've been through the wringer when it came to doctors. One doctor after the other told me, I'll never have kids after a battery of tests when I was 19, the endocrinologist said, I'll never have kids. I wait with this beautiful eight-and-a-half year old boy who is our whole world and he impresses me.

I look into his eyes and I recognize that God exists because of how amazing this child is and how life is so beautiful. Life is filled with so many beautiful things. And being a mom is so amazing. And I'm so grateful that I was able to overcome. If I had believed that doctor, if I had just believed her and had not taken the steps, I would have never had my child in my life. And just the impact that the words doctors have when they say you can never do this or you'll never be able to do that is sickening. I was told I'd always have diabetes. I was told I'd always have these problems and I overcame them and I don't have them anymore. And that's why I started the podcast is I suffered, I cried daily, I was suffering in my body. I felt like a prisoner trapped in a sick body every day. And I created this podcast because I wanna reach out to all those people who are crying, they're suffering. And they don't need to. And this podcast is for them. It's a lifeline. I'm throwing the lifeline, the giant flotation device, I'm throwing it and hopefully reaching them. And we can help them. And you have the answer to millions and millions of people suffering. If all the doctors I had been to were trained in your work, I wouldn't have had to suffer as long as I did. Let's just put it that way. And so you're going to help so many people. 

So everyone listening is going to share this with those they care about. And frankly, share this with those you don't care about. Jesus talks about how we need to treat the least of us is how we actually treat Him. So just like, share this with your enemy. Let's mend some bridges. Let's share this with everyone.

Dr. David Clarke (01:46:14.971)

They might become a nicer person too.

Ashley James (01:46:18.377)

If someone has shared this with you, they're going to be like, well, wait a second, do they like me or am I their enemy? Share this with everyone. We've got to get this out there. The impact of what you're doing is so important. And I'm so honored to have you here today. I want to make sure that we've covered everything you wanted to cover. I know you've already shared a lot, but is there any homework? Is there anything to wrap up? Is there anything that you didn't get to say?

Dr. David Clarke (01:46:48.671)

You did a great job with asking questions, and I think we covered a huge amount of material. I can point out that these ideas that we're sharing aren't especially new, but they are largely unknown to the healthcare professionals of this world, and that's why my colleagues and I created the nonprofit, and why I do teaching all over North America and Europe and speak on wonderful podcasts like yours. 

There was a Harvard professor named Francis Peabody who gave a speech in 1925 and it became one of the most famous speeches in American medicine. It was published in the Journal of the American Medical Association in 1927. It's easy to find on the internet. It's a 6,000 word speech. He covers a lot of the same ideas that you and I have covered today. This was 100 years ago almost. This was before the discovery of penicillin is how old that speech is. And all those ideas that we've discussed today are in his speech. So this is kind of timeless wisdom that we're trying to bring back amid the tsunami of technology that has overtaken medicine today. We need the technology. I used it in my practice for 30 years. I've benefited from it myself. I'm all in favor of technology, but we absolutely don't need to lose the humanistic side of medicine in response to the technology.

Ashley James (01:48:39.311)

Right, exactly. This should be foundation. This should be something dealt with first, not last. Unfortunately. I'm sure you've heard it, that people come to you after they've already been through a battery of tests and trials and, wouldn't it be wonderful if this was the first thing we tried and not the last thing we tried.

Dr. David Clarke (01:49:00.723)

Oh, absolutely. It makes doctors happy when they learn how to do this. It saves a ton of money. It saves complications from diagnostic tests. It alleviates vast amounts of human suffering. 

Now, one of my patients had been ill for 55 years. Volume three of his paper chart was three inches thick, and he was cured in less than 30 days, just by bringing these issues to the surface.

Ashley James (01:49:32.475)

Oh my goodness. I would love nothing more than to watch like a documentary of following people's lives. Did you have that in the works? I know you've been a producer of three films. Do you have the intention of covering this in a documentary?

Dr. David Clarke (01:49:49.411)

It is covered in three different documentaries. I participated as a producer and helped as a consultant with the editing. The first was All the Rage, and the second was This Might Hurt, and the third was Pain Brain, and links to these are on our website, and you can easily track them down through the titles on the internet. They're all different. But they're all excellent and provide information about different aspects of this. So yes, those are great. You pay a few bucks to watch them, but the filmmakers did outstanding work.

Ashley James (01:50:33.938)

Very cool. Well, holidays are coming up. I think one of your books would be make an excellent stocking stuffer. I think listeners should go and check them out. I keep saying share this episode, but also get the books, watch the movies, check out I'm very excited, even though this is like you said, timeless wisdom. It wasn't really until recently that you have been able to put together the three types of therapies in that order that were the most effective, right? So it took many of you to come together and create the system that is working and be able to measure the system that is working, which I'm so grateful for, cause it's one thing to be, cerebral about it and it's another thing to put, where rubber meets the road, right? Where we actually have to go do it. So we can be cerebral and go, just knowing that this is the cause of your chronic pain isn't going to solve anything until you get into action and do it and do the therapies and do the work. But what's showing across the board is in a very short period of time, sometimes as little as one month, you can have tremendous results, which is really exciting. 

Dr. David Clarke (01:51:58.432)

Yes it’s. People get the insight into it, and even if they don't experience complete relief right away, they can usually see that they are on a pathway toward recovering, and that's tremendously reassuring for people.

Ashley James (01:52:12.568)

Oh yes, especially if they've been through the wringer for many years. One therapy I definitely want you to check out, cause there's so many out there is a Timeline Therapy. It was created by Tad James and I studied underneath him of no relation. We just happened to have the same last name but Timeline Therapy is a wonderful tool and I'd love for you to look into it and see if it's something that, you'd like to add.

I did have a client with chronic back pain. I was able to do a Timeline Therapy session with them, took one session over eight hours over one day. We did an intense session. And I'm a master practitioner and trainer of NLP and Timeline Therapy. And we were able to resolve her chronic pain in that one day. I mean, that's just one person, but for her, it was her whole world. But Timeline Therapy incredibly amazing as a technique for resolving trauma. And it would be great for you to check it out and see if it's something you'd wanted to add to your repertoire, if it helps, if it advances your cause.

Dr. David Clarke (01:53:23.644)

Yes, I'm happy to take a look at it. I hadn't been familiar, but especially if the timeline goes back to day one, I can imagine a lot of ideas that would overlap with the work that I do.

Ashley James (01:53:35.580)

Yes, so actually, so with Timeline Therapy, you're in a light state of trance, so you're conscious of the unconscious mind and you're conscious the whole time because it's a light state of trance. And then we go back to the root cause, the very beginning, and kind of do the fly on the wall thing so they're not completely immersed in the emotion and they're able to then get a non-mirror image reverse of the event because we go above and beyond it, but it's a little hard to explain without a visual, but the way in which they're visualizing the beginning of the trauma and then they gain positive learnings from the experience, very quickly they're able to then go into the event and the emotion is gone, it's resolved, and they've gained positive learnings and they're seeing things from different perspectives. So it's very cool.

But like I wouldn't say it's the only thing to do. I would just say I'd love to add it to your tool belt because I think everything you're doing is wonderful and in addition to what you're doing, I think it'd be really cool for you to have Timeline Therapy. I think it's just or the Tad James company that teaches it and there's many practitioners out there now. I studied it with Tad back in 2005 and 2006.

Dr. David Clarke (01:54:56.086)

Very cool, I'll check it out.

Ashley James (01:54:58.562)

Dr. David Clark it has been a pleasure having you on the show. I'd love to have you back or any of your colleagues. Anytime there's new advancements, you guys want to come back and share more as things develop. You are always welcome back. And I will definitely be just like screaming from the rooftops for everyone to go to

Dr. David Clarke (01:55:20.774)

Yes, thank you. The research that I described today has opened the floodgates for money from National Institute of Health and other places to do even more research. So I'm sure those will be published in the next couple of years and is just going to help accelerate this snowball rolling downhill for more and more people to become aware of this.

Ashley James (01:55:44.450)

Beautiful. That's so exciting. Awesome. Well, it was been a pleasure having you on the show and please come back anytime.

Dr. David Clarke (01:55:51.660)

Thank you.

Get Connected with Dr. David Clarke

Website – Psychophysiologic Disorders Association


Books by Dr. David Clarke:

Psychophysiologic Disorders

They Can't Find Anything Wrong

Nov 20, 2023

Have you seen the new page on my site where I compiled a list of everything I love and recommend health-wise?

Stay tuned for updates on the upcoming launch of my new book/health challenge journal!


Break Free: Defeat Cravings, Overcome Overeating with Dr. Glenn Livingston


This episode welcomes back a familiar voice, Dr. Glenn Livingston, the creator of the Defeat Your Cravings system. Dr. Livingston opens up about his personal struggles with food and how this led him to develop his groundbreaking approach. Together, we discuss his new book, Defeat Your Cravings, and share valuable insights into the process of making lasting changes in your relationship with food. We also share strategies for controlling cravings, defeating emotional eating, and finding pleasure in healthier options.



  • Food Industry’s impact on overeating
  • Overcoming food cravings and addiction 
  • Stress response and defeating cravings 
  • Understanding the inner voice and discipline 
  • The importance of breathing techniques 
  • Things to do instead of overeating
  • The negative effects of indulging cravings 


Hello True Health seeker, and welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health podcast. I went through something very interesting in October and that's why it took me so long to publish the next episode. I lost my voice for a few weeks and, as I'm hearing my own voice, it's not 100% back yet, but every day I'm getting better and better. So I had quite the adventure in health last month, which of course, included, like I said, losing my voice, and I'm very excited to compile everything I learned from the experience and I'm definitely going to be putting together something for you guys in the near future, where I'm going to share what I found out really worked. 

So I was hit out of nowhere with really bad bronchitis. It was the weirdest thing. I went from totally fine to boom, 100% bronchitis, which led to losing my voice, and the adventure which was last month in my health journey led me to discover a few things that I hadn't used before. I used all my whole bag of tricks, everything I normally use, all the herbs and the homeopathy, the phototherapy patches which actually was the single most important thing in getting my voice back. I went from I'd open my mouth and no sound would come out. I put one of the patches on that, specifically designed to generate healthy new tissue and decrease inflation, and almost immediately I was able to talk again, albeit squeaky and a little gravelly, but it was really amazing to see how, just how fast it helps. So the phototherapy patches I was amazed by, as all my tools I use, but none of it was 100% helping me overcome. 

And I really wanted to avoid the use of antibiotics for several reasons, one being that I am highly allergic to most antibiotics, so that is just not fun for me. In general, and, being the health nut that I am, I will choose antibiotics when I absolutely need it. But I wanted to challenge my body to overcome, and my Naturopath watched me the whole time and said yep, you're fighting it, you're good, you're fighting it, it's not getting worse. It definitely was a really bad case of bronchitis that came out of nowhere. It hit me so hard. It was the weirdest thing, but what I learned was amazing. And, of course, the whole journey is something that I take as a lesson to be able to pass on and help others. So I'm going to put together all the things that I use that really helped. 

Now I have Episode 115 and I've done this a few other times in the podcast where I've shared the tips and tricks and the home remedies for overcoming cold and flu and supporting the immune function and also just making yourself feel better while you're going through the experience. So there's lots of information I've already shared, but I'm going to give you my updated version soon, based on what I went through for most of October, including some new stuff that my Naturopath had me do and it really helped, and it's not something I'm comfortable sharing on the podcast because it's pretty interesting. But I think what I'm going to do is compile a free course, just a free mini course to give you guys all my notes, which is great for anyone who wants to boost immune system and also help yourself when you are fighting something respiratory or when you're fighting, cold or flu. It's great to have these tools. 

I believe in modern medicine, like I believe in that there's life saving drugs and antibiotics are some of them. But I also know, and I've seen so many times, that we overuse antibiotics and we tend to run to them first instead of helping the body fight the battle. So if you're like me and you're one of those people who really wants to support the body and fighting the battle and not wiping our entire microbiome every time we get a cold or flu, which can lead to so many health issues in the long run, including Candida in the gut. But also Dr. Joel Fuhrman talks about this I had him on my show before. He talks about this that there are studies that show that every time you use antibiotics, we raise our chances of cancer, and so we are damaging ourselves for our long-term health, our long-term gut health, but we're also significantly harming our immune system and leaving ourselves more susceptible to what they now call superbugs. So not to fear monger at all, but basically it's a tool. These drugs are a tool that we want to use when we need them, and we also don't want to run to them at the first sign of infection if we can fight it ourselves, and I have some amazing holistic tools that are scientifically proven to help our bodies overcome, which I did, and now my voice is healing. Every day. It's getting better and better. You should have heard me a few days ago. I sound like a Mickey Mouse, or Minnie Mouse if she had been a smoker for 30 years, which is kind of sexy but also not great for broadcasting. So I'm going to wait about another week before I start doing interviews again, but luckily I had actually done this interview right before I got sick, so I'm able to publish it now. 

I am so excited to share something with you and that's a project I've been working on. I've compiled what I've done the last 12 years working with clients. I've compiled a list of health habits, of lifestyle changes that are so significant or so meaningful that they make huge strides in health. So if you want to increase your immune function, if you want to increase your energy, if you want to deepen your sleep, if you want to lower your stress, if you want to have more joy in your body and more joy in your heart, have better digestion all these things. I have these amazing and very powerful foundational tools that are daily habits, and habits are kind of hard when the at first right, because they're such a new thing. It's not one of our habits, right, so it's easy to forget or easy not to do. But I teach them in such a way that's fun and easy to implement and you see almost instant results. And by the end of this journey you will have all the foundational tools that I teach all my clients that really help them overcome major issues and feel like they're just loving the body they're in. 

So I'm going to be launching in a few weeks my first book, which is more of a wellness journal. It's going to be the Learn True Health 12 Week Wellness Revolution Journal and in it, every week you get to do a new habit that I teach you. It's like a health challenge that you get to do for seven days and if you love it and you see a difference, you can keep implementing. Keep doing it. Most of these habits are things that are no cost or very low cost, things that are going to be easy to implement in your life and you'll see big rewards. So it's totally worth doing. It's going to be a lot of fun. And well, I think it's a lot of fun because I'm a health nut. I think you're going to think it's a lot of fun because why else would you be listening to this podcast? But I'm working on launching it so it'll be available before the holidays. 

I think it's going to be a great gift for those you care about, those that want it, no matter where they are on their health journey. My goal with my journal that I'm publishing is that it is going to meet you where you're at. So if you're someone who is just taking their first steps into health, just taking the first steps into getting their health back, or if you've been walking the health nut path with me for years, both people will benefit from this journal. So it's going to meet you where you're at and help you build foundational health habits in a fun way that you get to see results and feel results in your body, and that's so rewarding. So you can give this to those you love. You can do it with your friends. You can even get friends or family or your sister, your sisters, or get your partner or your kids or your mom with you to do it with you. And how fun would that be. And it'll also be great going into the New Year's because I think January mentally is kind of like wipe this slate clean. 

I remember just last January because we lost our daughter two years ago, and just last January I was at church and it was the New Year's and I just saw my hand. Just mentally it's like wiping the slate clean. I'm like I am closing the book on suffering, like I did my grieving. I love her, I miss her, I think of her all the time and yes, I get sad about it and I also feel tremendous love. 

And what happened in January is I said, you know what, 2023 is a new year and I'm closing the book on that suffering. And It's just another day, right? December, and then, all of a sudden, January 1st, it's just another day. It's very mental. It's a mental exercise. It's not real, we made up these days. But there's something significant when we say January 1st, we feel like we can wipe the slate clean and we can start again and we can take on new challenges and it's all just your mindset, right? So I love that idea of saying you know what, I'm closing the book on those old health habits that no longer serve me. I'm closing the book on doing things in a way that's not serving me and today, January 1st, I'm starting new health habits that are helping me become healthier and stronger. And you could start it in December if you wanted to, or you can wait till the holidays are over, but either way, my journal is going to be amazing. 

So make sure you subscribe to the Learn True Health podcast. Make sure you come into the Facebook group. If you're on Facebook, Learn True Health on Facebook you can go to and sign up for my newsletter. I send like maybe three emails a month. I promise I won't spam you, but I'll definitely be sending you updates as this journal is launched. And for my top listeners, if you are a big fan of the Learn True Health podcast or if you want to be, either way, I'm going to be offering a few of my listeners a book for free and I'm going to be updating you very soon on the details of that. So just pay attention, keep listening, because there's going to be a way to get my book for free. It's actually going to be a signed copy as a gift I want to gift some of you guys, and so just keep listening, keep hanging in there, and you'll hear from me soon about it as I launch it. 

Thank you so much for being my amazing listeners and sharing this podcast and my podcast with those you care about, because together we are helping people to overcome. And just remember that, no matter where you are in your health, think about what you have overcome and what you are grateful for, because there's always something in your body, in your life, in your health, that you are grateful for. And think about the things you don't like about your health or your life, the things you want to change, and whatever it is. There are steps to change it, there are steps to improve it, and here on my show, I'm here to help you with that and my guests are here to help you with that. So let's turn this ripple into a tidal wave and help as many people as possible to learn true health. Enjoy today's episode. 

Ashley James (0.11:38.719)

Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is Episode 512.

I am so excited for today's guest. We have back on the show with us, someone who is so near and dear to my heart, Dr. Glenn Livingston. He is the creator of the system, Defeat Your Cravings. You can go to to check it out. Glenn, you today are earning your frequent flyer miles pin, because you have been on our show now. This is your fifth time.

I just want to let listeners know about the other times you've been on the show so they can go back and listen to previous episodes with you if they'd like. Episode 56, all the way back when I was just a little itty bitty baby podcaster. Episode 56, you came on and talked about ending binge eating and that was like six, seven years ago. So lots happened. Yes.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (0.12:39.603)

When I still had my teeth and hair.

Ashley James (0.12:43.879)

Episode 231, he is gorgeous by the way. He definitely still has teeth and hair. He's just joking. Episode 231, you talked about willpower. Episode 249, we talked about the impact of eating right. Episode 423, stopping nighttime eating and cravings. But today, you're coming on the show to talk about your new system, which has been an evolution of the ongoing work you've been doing for so many years and you and your team have helped over 10,000 people, is that correct?

Dr. Glenn Livingston (0.13:16.955)

Well, the book has over a million readers. My Psychology Today column has over a million readers and we've had about 2000 paying clients. So, I imagine we've helped a hundred thousand people or so. 

Ashley James (0.13:33.561)

Okay. So somewhere in there, it's in the thousand. So, but 2000 paying clients, you've followed their progress and seen them overcome and watch them. And your system has evolved based on working with 2000 people. 

Dr. Glenn Livingston (0.13:52.070)

Yes. Exactly. 

Ashley James (

Very cool. So I definitely want to jump into you talking about what is the difference between defeat your, your new system and your book, by the way, holding your book right now. I love your book. I couldn't put it down. I've read your other books and they're all great, but this one I feel is, it was so much easier for me to work through the system and to look at myself and do some self-reflection and to set some rules in place. It's like a fine wine. You've refined it. And of course, after working with 2000 people, there's definitely something to say about your book, Defeat Your Cravings. And I want listeners to go to if you feel like food controls you in any aspect of your life.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (0.14:45.501)

You can get a free copy in the Kindle or Nook format there. Well, thank you, Ashley. I'm really excited to be here. We've always had in-depth stimulating conversations where I learned things too. And I've had you on my show, so I guess we're buddies. I guess we're in the mutual appreciation society.

Ashley James (0.15:04.977)

Absolutely. And you've really helped me through the years. And I don't know if you know that, but part of my podcast is that I'm on this healing journey with my listeners. I consider myself an expert. I've put in the 10,000 hours into research and working in the holistic health field, but there's no Mount Everest of health and mental wellness. Like there's just no like, Oh, I achieved it. That's it. Check that off my bucket list and I'm done. We're always growing, evolving, learning. And I just love what I've learned from you. And I've told my friends to see you and you're someone who I feel is so compassionate, so caring, but also will cut through the BS in such a loving way that you really help people just get to the heart of it and get results without having to do years and years and years and years of work. Like you just cut through in a very loving way. So I really appreciate your system.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (0.16:03.877)

I'm going to have to have you follow me around and introduce me everywhere.

Ashley James (0.16:08.013)

I will edify you. I hope to introduce you to other people for sure. 

Well, for those who didn't listen to the other episodes, why don't you just give us the little tiny blurb about you so people can understand where you're coming from.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (0.16:25.755)

Okay. So I guess the thing to know about me is I'm not a doctor who just decided to work with obesity or, eating troubles. And by the way, part of what's different about the new book is it really expands to allow people to work with anything that's making them eat beyond their own best judgment. You don't have to have an eating disorder to benefit from this. But I'm not just a doctor that decided to do that. I had an awful lot of trouble with food myself. I mean, if you went by the Woodbury Country Deli in the late 90s sometimes, and you found that they were out of pizza or pop tarts, the odds were that I was there before you. I was almost 300 pounds and I was suffering, not initially. Initially, I thought I'm 6’4 and I'm modestly muscular just genetically and so I could get away with a lot when I was a kid and I was working out all the time, but when I got married and I got a little older and I was commuting two hours each way to see patients and I wanted to help my wife at the time with her business, I'm divorced now, but I wanted to help her with the business. I didn't have time to work out and the food started to catch up to me. And it wasn't so much the physical impact at first, later on it was, but it was more the mental obsession with it. Like I'd be sitting with patients and thinking, when can I get to the deli or when do I get the next pizza?

And to be a really good psychologist, which has always been really important to me. I mean, I grew up in a family of psychotherapists and I used to have my little friends come over and lie down on the couch and tell me about their mother and it was always the most important thing to me to really help people. But, I just found that I was a little too obsessed with food to be a hundred percent present. And thank God I worked that out eventually, but, I went the traditional route, and, I tried to love myself thin. I thought if I could heal the hole in my heart that I wouldn't have to heal the hole in my stomach. And I went to the best psychologists and psychiatrists and counselors. And I went on a spiritual journey and I went to Over It Is Anonymous and everything got me a little thinner and then a lot fatter, a little thinner and a lot fatter.

I learned a lot about myself psychologically. I feel like it made me a more compassionate, soulful, in-depth person. So I don't really regret having done the journey, but, it really wasn't until about 20 years later that I started to put it together for real. And there were three things that happened that changed my paradigm. What one was that my ex wife was traveling for business all the time. So I only really saw her on the weekends for the most part. And a lot of time into my hands, and I used to consult for some of the clients that she was consulting for, except in a different way, which unfortunately were clients in the big food and big pharma industries, right? I was on the wrong side of the war. Like I'm kind of like the Marlboro man later in his life when he felt contrite. You know, when I was kind of selling sugar all these hyper-palliable concentrations of starch and salt and fat and cytotoxins. It's engineered to hit the bliss point in your reptilian brain without giving you the nutrition to feel satisfied. And as I was doing that, I really started to see how much money and time and rocket science they were putting into engineering these concoctions, and it had nothing to do with personal psychology, like the fact that there are so many calories in such a small space for so little money in a package that mimics what we would see in the wild so that we hit those evolutionary buttons that say we really need that, advertised by, an industry which was spending an equal amount of money to make us believe this stuff.

And I saw there were, five to 7,000 messages per year beamed over the airways and the internet. But hardly, hardly anything more about just eating more fruit and vegetables, right? And I said, well, these are not psychological forces. This is not a problem with my mother having dropped me on my head or her mother dropping her in her head or, you know what I mean? I'm being a little silly, but it's not a depth psychology problem, this was a problem of industry where we're living in a society with a perfect storm for overeating and, overindulging. And then the addiction treatment industry was saying, you can't quit. Even if you want to, the best you could do is abstain one day at a time. And there's no evidence of that, by the way. 

And in the meantime, there were all these fat cats and white suits with mustaches that were laughing all the way to the bank every time I'd look for love in the bag or a box or a container. And I said, okay, this is not necessarily an internal problem. And maybe I have to switch my paradigm to being the alpha dog of my own mind.

Maybe it's not so much, I love your inner wounded child, so that you can get thin kind of approach and maybe it's more so of a take charge and take no prisoners, tough love kind of approach where, it's very similar to other biological urges. Like if you really have to pee.

You don't pee in the middle of a business meeting. You tell your bladder that you're in charge and you've got some things you want to accomplish as a civilized member of society. And when you're done, that you'll take a trip to the bathroom. Or if you see attractive people on the street, you don't run up and kiss them. There are ways to go about these things. And actually, my way was usually to run the other way because I was shy. But, you know what I mean?

We're expected in our world to take control of our biology. We're not really allowed to say, well, the devil made me do it and I can't help myself. And we don't have to go to therapy for 20 years to figure out how, not to run up and kiss someone in the street. And so I kind of got tired of all the depth psychology. I loved all the personal growth, but I got tired of the implication that if I loved myself enough, I was going to be okay. And I think that was just a big distraction. Okay. Then I learned a couple of other things. I learned that the reptilian brain, which is the seat of, cravings, which is the seat of, food addiction, really, or any addiction that.

It doesn't know love. It looks at something in the environment, and its assessment is like a bad college drinking game. Like, do I eat it, do I mate with it, or do I kill it? I love your laugh. But I mean, that's what it is. It's eat, mate, or kill. The reptilian brain doesn't really care about your tribe or your loved ones or your romance or your connection. And it certainly doesn't care about your long-term goals or contributions to society, your spirituality, your art or your music or, your psychological growth, it's in an eat, mate or kill situation. And so in order to be the alpha dog of my own mind,  I'd read a little bit of alternative addiction treatment literature and it suggested, this is by Jack Trimpe, the book was Rational Recovery, it suggests that you bifurcate your mind, that you separate your thoughts into two kinds. He was talking about drinking, so he would say there are the kinds of thoughts that suggest that you'll ever drink again and there are the kinds of thoughts that say that you never will.

And I thought, okay, so I just need a line. I don't have any trouble with alcohol or drugs, but food has always been my drug of choice. I said, I'm just gonna draw a really clear line in the sand. And one of my first ones was that I would never have chocolate on a weekday again. And that way, if I knew that if I was in a Starbucks and I heard this little voice that said, Hey, Glenn! You worked out really hard today. A couple of the squares are not going to kill you. You're not going to gain any weight. Just start your silly rule again tomorrow. I'd say, wait a minute, who's in charge here? That's not me. And this is a little bit embarrassing, but I said, that's my inner pig. And chocolate on a weekday is pig slop. I don't eat pig slop. I don't let farm animals tell me what to do. It's I'm actually a sophisticated psychologist and I've been all over the airwaves, but this is what it took for me to start to beat the thing. And it wasn't a miracle, like I wasn't better right away, but what did happen was that I would wake up at the moment of impulse. And I had the opportunity to make a different choice. There's extra microseconds. It's like I managed to pry a space between stimulus and response. And what I know now is that the brain really wants to automate the acquisition of calories.

That only makes sense. It's a survival response. So actually people who have stronger cravings actually have healthier brains. It's not a sickness. They actually have healthier brains. It's just that in the modern and food environment, those cravings don't really serve us, and so that was the birth of my recovery.

Over the course of the next eight years, and and it only takes a couple of months for people to recover now when I work with them but over the course of eight years for me I worked entirely with that cognitive operation separating my thoughts into– thoughts that wanted me to break the rule and thoughts that wanted me to stick to the rule.

 When I heard a thought that wanted me to break the rule I would try to take a breath and calm down and then I would say, Well, how is that thought wrong?

Well, I mean, the way that particular thought is wrong, the idea that you could start your rules tomorrow, it'll be just as easy, is that the way the brain works, if you're craving chocolate, and you  think, I'll just start my silly rule again tomorrow, and then you eat the chocolate, you've just reinforced that thought because what fires together, wires together, and you've made it more likely that you're going to think start tomorrow, tomorrow.

So if you're in a hole, you really have to stop digging and use the present moment to be healthy And that that's an example of what I would call a cognitive refutation We figured out what the pig was saying we figured out what was logically wrong with it. And what that does is It eliminates the justification in the absence of a justification if you make a commitment to a goal and then you can't justify breaking that commitment it becomes psychologically uncomfortable to break the commitment. Not impossible, but uncomfortable. because you don't have the excuse anymore. It's kind of like if it was previously a greased chute, now you've poured some sand and glass on that chute. You can still go down if you want to, but it's not really advisable and it's not much fun. And so that's how I recovered. But it turned out for me that there were a lot of things that the pig was saying. There were a lot of lies it was telling me. 

I did it the long hard way because I only use these cognitive techniques and I hadn't really developed the methodology for flushing them out quickly, so I didn't have my systems available to me when this all started. It took about eight years keeping a journal. Then I eventually wrote a book. That book took off just around the time I was getting a divorce in 2015. I published it and it took off in 2016.

I wound up with a million readers and all these clients. Then over the course of the years, coaching those people, I develop ways to do it faster and better, still focusing almost entirely on the cognitive component, like how to fix your thinking about food, which is very important, so I was able to speed things up, but I started to see that there were things that people were doing where some people would do better than others. And they didn't have to do with fixing their thinking about food. It had more to do with self-care. Like the people who were eating more regularly and reliably and who weren't trying to lose weight really quickly, who were like prioritizing health and control over the eating more so than losing weight fast.

So they mostly would have three meals a day. They mostly weren't doing extreme diets. I would see higher levels of success with those people than the people that would say, well, I'm only gonna eat apples for a month, or I'm only gonna have one meal a day, or something like that. I've befriended many of the intermittent fasting podcasters and I don't dispute the medical benefits of it, but I just tell people that if you're struggling to get your eating under control, you should probably have somewhere between three and six months of regular reliable nutrition before you do that. And then you can go back and integrate it. So Ashley, you still there by the way? I didn't hear.

Ashley James (0.31:14.569)

I really agree with you about the intermittent fasting and actually that in your book. I'm again, love your book, Defeat Your Cravings.

I really want listeners to go check out There's lots of great freebies. Like you said, you can even download the book for free if it's on Kindle. And in the book, you talk about intermittent fasting and I found it fascinating because I'm one of those health coaches who tells my clients not to intermittent fast at the beginning. And so many of my clients are like, okay, I'm ready to get my health back and I'm gonna only eat two hours a day. And I'm like, no, and fasting is really healthy and it's not healthy at the beginning especially if people have been eating more the standard American diet or processed food, but I love how you elaborated on that and explain that what you saw in your 2,000 clients that people who jumped on the intermittent fasting bandwagon, they ended up failing in their recovery or the recovery became much more difficult because they would relapse and they didn't really do the work. It's just harder to do the work and get to a place where food isn't this constant obsession in their mind or they feel like they have really great control over their cravings and their eating. And then later down the road, like you said, three, six, nine months down the road, when you really feel like you are at a really good place with your eating, then start to slowly transition into intermittent fasting and give it a try, but only when you feel like you're in control.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (0.32:55.102)

I think it's because you first have to normalize your blood sugar and get used to what it feels to be more even keeled. And I think you have to, getting a lot of the toxins out of your system. Your body has to do that work first. And also, when you get a lot of the processed foods, not my people don't have to give up anything necessarily. There are things in processed foods that turn off your ability to know when you're hungry and full and they mess with your leptin and ghrelin and the hunger regulating hormones and they really create cravings for themselves. And so, it's very, very uncomfortable getting off of those foods in the beginning. So if you combine that with

the fasting element that tries to speed up that production, the purging of it, it's more uncomfortable and I think a lot of people crap out because they can't get through that.

Ashley James (0.34:02.016)

Another thing about intermittent fasting that we don't consider, especially if someone has a blood sugar dysregulation, and you don't have to have type two or type one diabetes. Like you can just be like pre-diabetic or you could have metabolic syndrome or you could sort of still have somewhat okay A1C, but you could sort of go into hypoglycemia or you could go into hyper. You can still have problems with your insulin resistance  and jumping into too quickly into narrowing your feeding window, your eating window, causes you to go into stress response. And the stress response then oftentimes will trigger our desire for comfort food, right? It's like our binky. I don't mean to like make fun of people, again, everything I say is because I've personally been on this journey. I am on this journey with you, but I have to catch myself. because like Glenn, you talk about how your inner voice is your pig. And I identified in one of our interviews, I'm pretty sure it was the Episode 56, that my inner voice is my inner brat. And I am like this total spoiled five-year-old little girl, like think of in the Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. What's her name?

Dr. Glenn Livingston (0.35:29.248)

I know who you mean. She went up having a big…

Ashley James (0.35:34.324)

She became a big blueberry! That's like me, this little brat, and she wants what she wants when she wants it. And so if anyone said to me, like, do you really need that dessert? I don't eat sugar anymore. I'm so much better than I used to be, but again, I'm not at the Mount Everest. I'm not done.

I want to keep getting better and keep getting better. But Ashley in the past would get very angry and I'm not an angry person, but there was just something in me, the brat came out and she's like, no, I want what I want when I want it. And now I'm gonna have two pieces instead of one. And it was really interesting to observe that and to them, like you said, almost like dissociate and become the observer observing the voice and going, Hey, that's not me. This voice is the brat, or for you, like it's the pig, which is great. I just love that because you call anything that is outside of your food rules that you get to create for yourself is pig slop. And and it gives us so much strength in the moment because it causes that pause. It causes that little break.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (0.36:47.443)

Because you'd wake up and wonder who's in charge and whether you really want them to be.

Ashley James (0.36:51.785)

And with intermittent fasting, it does trigger the stress response until you get really used to fasting. And anything that increases your stress response is going to have us be thrown back into that reptilian brain. And so that brat becomes louder, that pig becomes louder. And I just feel like it's we're shooting ourselves in the foot. As we're going through defeating our cravings, or using your system to defeat our cravings to then do stuff that increases stress. We want to do things that decrease stress and I love how in your book, you talk about how so many people have found that when we take just five minutes and anyone can take five minutes in a day or just even take three breaths, that kind of pause gives us so much more control.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (0.37:40.317)

So gosh, you said so many important things that I want to take off on, but let's talk about that stress response. 

Psychologists might call this organismic distress. It's really the experience of something's wrong, I need resources. Maybe I need warmth or contact or food or water or sleep or space to think, but there's something wrong and I need resources. When the reptilian brain feels like that, and it is mostly a reptilian brain function, it wants to force you to be less discriminating with food. So this is why you get the screw it, just do it and response. And this is really what the evolution of the new book was about. The original book was about fixing your thinking with food so you didn't have the justifications. And we do that in the new book also, we took the best of the best of that. But the new book is more about, what is this screw it, just do it, response all about and how do you fix that? And there are a number of things that you said that I could take off on to help people to do that.

One of them is just taking those decision-free breaks throughout the day, because the ability to make good decisions, that's what willpower really is. Willpower is the ability to make good decisions. And we only have so much willpower in a given day. We can only make so many good decisions before our willpower tank is empty. And this doesn't only apply to food decision, it's that applies to- What do I do with this email? Do I delete it? Do I spam it? Do I delegate it to someone? Do I save it for later? Do I execute on it right now? Do I reply right now? Every little decision like that burns a little bit more of that brain glucose that lets you make good decisions later on. What are you going to wear today? Who's going to take Jenny to soccer practice?

It all feeds into it. And there are studies where they show that people have trouble resisting marshmallows if you make them do math problems before. So what we can extrapolate from that is if you can take a few decision-free breaks during the course of a day. Just five minutes where you put your phone down, you turn off your email, you take a walk by yourself, you go and you take some deep breaths and there's nothing to decide. Just five minutes, 10 minutes, twice a day, it makes a world of difference. 

The other thing that can minimize the pressure on your willpower is using the hard and fast food rules. People have a lot of objections to using hard and fast food rules. They're afraid it's gonna stimulate their inner rebel, a whole bunch of things we could address if you want to. But the real benefit of it is that rules make decisions for you. If I say I'll never eat chocolate during the week again, that I don't have to make any chocolate decisions every time I'm at Starbucks during the week. If I say, I'm going to have chocolate 10% of the time and avoid it 90% of the time, that might be a great idea in theory, but how do I decide which is the 90% and which is the 10% and in the absence of a heuristic that helps me to do that then I have to make these decisions all week long and it eventually wears down my willpower. So one of the benefits and one of the reasons why people got so much better when I helped them to overcome their fear of making hard and fast food rules was that, they eliminated a lot of the pressure on their willpower because decisions were made for them. We had them make a list of all their trouble foods and only their trouble foods. You don't want to make rules about everything because it'll drive you crazy but you make a list of your trouble foods and you come up with hard and fast rules to define what role you want that food to play in your life. And it can be anything from I'll never have it again to I'll have no more than two ounces or four ounces per day, whatever it is. We have the good humor person here as we're talking, which is after a poke right. The ice cream truck is here passing by. Can you hear that in the back?

Ashley James (0.42:07.561)

Oh no. See your mic is so good. Maybe heard a tiny bit, but no, that would have been really funny if we all could hear that ice cream truck go by. That's hilarious.

Yes. Glenn lives in Florida where people eat ice cream all year round. I mean, I'm up here in Washington state where it's like 50 degrees. It's 13 Celsius for I have my computer set to Celsius. So I'm, I'm thinking it's in the fifties, but anyway, yes, we're not eating ice cream anymore up here. I love your thing about rules. Sorry, I'm going to interrupt, because you talked about how it's like when people object about, Oh, I can't follow a rule. You're like, well, would you rob a bank?  No, of course I wouldn't rob a bank. Well, would you murder someone? No, I wouldn't. So if you think about there's things in life you've decided you'll never do.

And you know you actually you don't have to have willpower to do those things. They just become part of your character. And over time, these rules that you decide, not you, Glenn, but you, the listener, decide a food rule, then it becomes part of your character. It's like, I don't do that. That's not what I do. Like, I don't murder people. I don't rob banks. I don't eat chocolate during the week or something like that. 

My food rule lately that I created and have been implementing is I never eat past 7 p.m. unless it's apples or algae, like a handful of chlorella or spirulina with my tea. I do like a golden milk, it's not milk, it's a type of Ayurvedic tea that has all these wonderful herbs. And I like to try to eat as early as possible during the day, not intermittent fasting, but I don't want to catch myself at night eating dinner, because I want to go to bed an empty stomach. And I also find that like the willpower, like you talk about, we run out of willpower. So it's like at night, if I'm hungry, the inner brat is the one making the decisions for me. Oh, what sounds good? What sounds delicious? I'm like, no, it's not at night. I don't need calories. I'm about to go to bed. 

If I'm hungry, I could drink some tea. I could have a few apple slices or I could have a handful of chlorella and, or I could just drink some water and be fine. But that inner brat, if I don't have that rule in place, that inner brats like, let's make sushi at 10 at night. I mean, I love cooking. I love cooking healthy food. I cook whole food, plant-based. I don't eat processed food, but I can still over indulge.

I can overindulge a kale salad. It is ridiculous how that inner brat, no matter how healthy you eat, could kind of go off the deep end because you said like the brain really wants to secure as much calories as possible for our survival. And I'm not in a desert. Hopefully none of us are gonna ever be in a famine, so I want to be conscious of eating healthy, but also eating healthy portions that are getting the right amount of nutrients in me. And late at night, if I let myself just eat whatever I want, I almost always will eat too much. And so when I learned about your rules, it's like, yes, at first, there's definitely a part of the brain that goes, no, I'm a rebel, this'll just make it worse. Don't restrict me.

And then when you follow the rules, it's like, oh, there's so much freedom because like last night, I came home from volunteering at the church and I'm like, okay, it's seven o'clock and that's my rule. I'd already eaten enough today. It's not like I was starving myself, but already eaten enough that day, but I came home and had slices of apples and I was so happy and proud of myself following my rule. Instead of, I did not feel like I needed to rebel. 

Dr. Seuss, that was his pen name. I don't remember what his actual name is, but he wrote about this, that in restriction, we actually gain more creativity and we gain more freedom within a set of rules. And he talks about that because he wrote his bestselling book. He was only given 50 words in order to write his bestselling book. I think it was Green Eggs and Ham. I'm pretty sure that's what it was, but he was given 50 words.

And he ended up making a masterpiece. And he said, it was within that restriction that he found freedom. And I found that by following your system, it gives me so much more freedom. Because like you said, now we don't have to constantly rely on willpower and decision-making. We have set rules up for ourselves that give us so much freedom.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (0.47:06.061)

Jim Rohn said that a life of discipline is better than a life of regret And I found that to be very true and there was a philosopher. I forgot his first name. I know his last name was a Bell Anyway, he explained that Freedom sits on top of discipline. It's not opposed to discipline so for example I'm actually a jazz pianist or I was 25 years ago. I wanted to be.

And I could improvise my soul and you would hear it if I was sitting and playing. But I couldn't do that if I hadn't had the discipline to study the structure of music and if I hadn't had the discipline to study the scales. So I know how to improvise away from that structure because I know where it is and how to get back to it and I know how far I can improvise away from that structure before the ear starts to hear it as noise.

And so that discipline has given me the freedom to express myself. You could also think about driving. It's only because of the discipline of the engineers that work it out so that when you turn your wheel 30 degrees, that the wheels of your car turn 30 degrees. And a lot of other things that the engineers, put into your cars only because of that discipline. That your radius of locomotion is expanding greatly, that you can drive all over town and even all across the country, all around the world without that discipline, you wouldn't have any freedom. So it's a mistake to think that discipline restricts your freedom. Discipline is actually the foundation, which enhances and expands your freedom. And I really think that life is about, as we get older, implementing new disciplines and then working on them so that they become part of your character because then eventually character trumps willpower, eventually you say, this is just who I am. I don't have a rule that says I'll never eat chocolate, again I'm just someone who doesn't eat chocolate, period end of story.

Ashley James (0.49:16.473)

I love that because the pig, the brat, that little inner voice that's always constantly, always ready to get us to break our own rules, right? That wants to convince us that discipline's bad.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (0.49:35.725)


Ashley James (0.49:37.235)

And so we have to get that like, what part of us doesn't like discipline? And is that part of us really for our best interests? Does it have our best interests at heart?

Dr. Glenn Livingston (0.49:49.107)

Right. And you don't even necessarily have to go that deep. At the moment of impulse, you don't have to be asking yourself, is this good for me or bad for me, or you don't have to have that, that in-depth conversation with yourself, you need to set up your rule so that you firmly believe that these are the best ones to follow.

So it's kind of like you do all the strategy work. You do the General, like a General in the army. You would be General Ashley when you're sitting and thinking through the rules and setting them up. But then you're Private Ashley when you're executing them. 

Ours is not the reason why ours is put to do or die. That's a really good motto when you're executing the rules in the moment. If you want to put on General Ashley's hat again, that's perfectly okay if you think you know something, but you do that when you've got a full belly on the rules that you followed and you've got time to think and strategize and you're being rational about it. You don't do that at the moment because the pig wants a piece of chocolate cake or the brat wants a piece of chocolate cake.

Ashley James (0.50:57.358)

So let's talk a bit about the screw it, just do it attitude. I've seen that in myself. I've seen that in my husband. I've seen that in my clients. I've definitely seen it in Hollywood, right? Like mainstream media, like, Oh, you had a fight with your husband. Just go get that pint of ice cream. 

Dr. Glenn Livingston (0.51:13.874)

Or on the Golden Girls when they went to get cheesecake, right?

Ashley James (0.51:17.361)

Yes. Right. It's this idea that tomorrow is a better day. And I love that you talked about how it over time builds the neurology of our brain so that we end up just always doing that behavior. We have to think about a behavior you accept is a behavior that repeats. It's not a one off. It's not a one time thing. How do we catch ourselves in the moment and like refute the pig when the pig says, screw it, just do it. You deserve it. We can start tomorrow. Why are you following this rule today? You know, life's been hard. You deserve the food you're craving.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (0.52:04.433)

So the first thing you need to do is create at least one simple rule so that you will wake up at the moment of impulse. If you're trying to eat well or eat healthy and you tell yourself, well, I really know how to eat healthy. I just need to do it more. That's not going to cut it because there's not a clear bullseye to aim for. So you're not going to wake up if the arrow is pointing away from the bullseye. So you start with one simple rule and examples of those could be, I'll never go back for seconds, I'll always put my fork down between bites. It doesn't have to be something that restricts a particular food oir it could be, I only have pressables at major league baseball parks or I never eat bread during the week, but on the weekends I can have two slices when i'm out to dinner. You need a very clear rule so that you'll recognize any thoughts which suggest that you're going to break it so that's what creates the separation between you and your inner food enemy, but once you have that, you'll start to become aware that there are things that happen before those thoughts emerge. Like, your mouth might get a little dry or you might get goosebumps or you might start sweating a little bit. There are signals of activation of the sympathetic nervous system, which is the part of the nervous system that gets us geared up for action. That's the part that says there's a little bit of an emergency here. Now it might not be rational, but we need resources. We might have to fight off that hungry bear. We might have to find heat or shelter. We might need to reconnect with the tribe. We need resources one way or the other. This is not a time to be discriminating about food.

So you try to become more aware of the activation of your sympathetic nervous system. And then you also become aware that between the moment that you first have the thought about breaking the rule and the time when you actually execute the behavior, there's usually a series of fantasies that ensue. For example, I recently gave up all caffeinated beverages whatsoever. I was down to just drinking decaf for a long time and I decided that I had to give up decaf. I'd done it before, but it was harder this time. And the reason for that, by the way, that was my blood pressure was still a little bit high, even though I was eating so well and exercising and not having any truly caffeinated beverages, I was still having gobs of decaffeinated. So I said, okay, I got to get off that. So I made a rule that I never have any caffeine whatsoever, even in decaffeinated drinks. I'll only ever have herbal tea or, non caffeinated beverages. And once I made that, I was aware that, my pig got very active, but I was aware that there was a fantasy that would ensue the moment I started considering maybe that was a stupid role. Maybe I could actually get a little caffeine, maybe I could handle one a day. I would think about, first of all, stepping away from my computer and stopping my work and getting in the car and driving about five minutes to my favorite coffee house and getting the coffee and I put a little plant-based milk in it and schmoozing with the people behind the counter who would often give it to me for free because I was there so much. And I realized it was just this whole pleasurable experience then I'd go back into the car and I'd maybe listen to podcasts while I was drinking it or I'd call friends or my sister or something like that. And it was just this incredibly pleasurable fantasy, even before I began to get in the car.

And then I learned that I could stop that fantasy in the cradle. I don't have to let that fantasy grow up. So I started to ask myself, what authentic pleasure can I redirect that to? Now, with food and drink, it might be something that's on your plan. Like for me, having an herbal tea with a little bit of plant-based milk was almost as delicious as the coffee itself. I couldn't really get it because they didn't have that kind of tea at the coffee house, so I didn't have the whole coffee house experience, but it was equally as delicious, and it would force me to take a little break as well. So I started to immediately recognize when that fantasy would start and I would redirect the fantasy to making my mint tea at home and putting in a little bit of the plant-based milk that I kept in the refrigerator. And so you can do that. You can try to catch the urge before it gets out of hand. Then you can also do a type of breathing, which takes you out of the sympathetic nervous system, and puts you into the parasympathetic nervous system. And Ashley you told me that you were going to add a piece of this-

Ashley James (0.57:12.645)

Oh, yes I'd love to. Yes So you discuss in your book the 7-11 breathing. And we had a little talk about how I teach something, very similar to that. But I add a few details because they've done studies around or observations around, Increasing heart rate variability. So they discovered heart rate variability, I think. I'm 99% sure this is how it was discovered. That there was a Russian cosmonaut up in the space station and he was sleeping, how they kind of harness themselves to the wall or otherwise they'll float around. Allegedly, I've never been there. Just guessing on how they do it. And they were monitoring his heart rate in space. And they started freaking out because his heart rate became what they thought was erratic, but he was sleeping and he's incredibly healthy. And they noticed that when he took a breath in, his heart rate was significantly different from when he exhaled. So like heart rate speeds up and then it slows down with the breath. So imagine breathing, especially when you're sleeping should be a lot like an ocean wave, very just up and down, up and down, just very gradual, slow. And the exhale is much longer than the inhale. And to recreate this, there's no pauses.

So we inhale for seven seconds and then we exhale for eleven. There's no pauses. So you inhale, count to seven, and then immediately begin to exhale, but exhale longer. Now, for some people, this is like eleven seconds is too much or seven seconds is too much. So you can start, because some people have never really taken deep breaths and their connective tissue, the ribs, everything is, it's sort of like you're at the gym, you warm up before you do stuff. We kind of got to warm up the back, warm up all the little joints, get the ribs going. So you might start with a deep breath that's five seconds and then an exhale that's eight seconds. And then if you keep that up, you might get a little lightheaded. So then you gotta slow it down. So take the deepest breath you can. And when you breathe, they call it the three point breath, where you first of all, soften your belly. because a lot of us, especially, I don't know, there's certain cultures which people don't care, but in where I'm from, everyone kind of tries to suck in their tummy and look skinnier than they are. So you gotta let your belly just hang out, just rest and soften your belly. And then when you take a deep breath, feel your diaphragm go down, feel your belly come out, like just give yourself room in your abdomen to let yourself take a deep breath. And then on your next breath, so do the same thing, let your abdomen go down, just relax, let your diaphragm go down, so take a deep belly breath. And then at the height, at the peak of the belly breath, now try to get a few more inches in by expanding your ribs. So now you're breathing like to your sides. You can put your hands on your sides and feel them move. And then the next breath, you're gonna do the same thing. Soften the belly, lower the diaphragm, really get that deep belly breath, feel the ribs expand. And the last part is put your hand on your clavicles, the sternum and the collarbones and feel them rise. So that's the three point breath. So it's belly, rib cage, rising of the clavicles or the collarbones. And that's a really big full breath. And then slow down in the exhale and there's no pauses. So you inhale and then exhale slower and you try to get to a point where your inhale is seven seconds Your exhale is eleven you could even if you're more athletic or you're just more practiced or as you practice this you can even get to a point where maybe it's eight seconds in and twelve seconds out you can play with it, but the idea is you're slowing down your breath, you're getting full deep breaths, you're not pausing between, and your exhales always longer than your inhale. And if you do this every day, you will increase your heart rate variability. And the exciting part about heart rate variability is it's one of the accurate ways that we measure whether we're in fight or flight or not. So whether you're in the stress response, which is the sympathetic nervous system response, or whether we've switched that off and we've switched on the parasympathetic response of rest and digest, of healing. This is the response where the body is able to gain nutrients from our food, where it's able to calmly make healthy hormones, healthy sex hormones, just healthy everything. The body goes into heal mode. The body is constantly triggered to be in stress response and we're seeing this in our food. Actually the processed food triggers stress response. Looking at your cell phone triggers stress response. Looking just at every aspect of our life is constantly triggering this fear. And we're thinking about things we're afraid of, even just thinking about things you don't want to have happen triggers the stress response. So we're bombarded with stress response triggering input all day long. And yet we've never really been taught or raised to perform a habit on a daily basis that intentionally gets us out of stress response. And this is why so many people are so anxious and have sleep problems and have hormone problems and have digestion problems because when we're in fight or flight, the body stops putting resources towards long-term health and healing. And it shunts blood away from the core, so we don't digest. It shunts blood away from the logic centers of the brain. So we have a really hard time focusing and concentrating on critical thinking and higher thinking. And we become more into that reptilian brain. Now, of course, we can override this. That's the cool part is that this is not, this is not like a life sentence. This is not like you're doomed to be controlled by the reptilian brain. This is just what happens if you're not the one driving the bus.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (1:04:03.682)

Well, and the exciting thing is that you can drive the bus. The exciting thing is that the first step is awareness, but once you have the awareness, you can start with a simple breath out for longer than you're breathing without any pauses. So you can push yourself into the parasympathetic nervous system and then you have a lot of options.

See, then you've really pried yourself apart from the automatic loop that the brain really wants to set up in the acquisition of calories. And I have to admit, I didn't know everything that Ashley was just saying now. She just schooled me a little bit. 

Ashley James (1:04:41.618)

Well, I love learning from you, so it's mutual.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (1:04:45.094)

What I would tell people is, think of it like this. If you were running from a hungry bear, you wouldn't have time to breathe out for longer than you breathed in. You'd be going, “Hh–Hh-Hh-Hh-Hh”, because there was an emergency. And so it only makes sense that when you can breathe in slowly and breathe out for longer without pausing, that your brain says, there ain't no hungry bear around. I guess we can work on your strategic rules and your weight loss and all those other things. So that's how you open up the window where you can do things. Often that's enough. Then you can remove the justification we talked about that.

Ashley James (1:05:31.226)

Oh, I want to just jump in right here because I think some people's pig or inner brat might've just said to them, it's not enough. The breathing is not enough. You will always go back to eating the foods. And this is what I love about your book is that it helps us to identify that the second we start on our path of gaining control, that pig, that inner voice is constantly telling us we can't do it.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (1:05:59.902)

That you're in a pig. No self-respecting pig will let you get away with just learning how to stop eating because you started breathing. There's no self-respecting in a pig that's not going to put up a fight. But we're wired to be superior to the reptilian brain, the neocortex.

Part of its function is to delay the gratification of impulse because it turned out to be a survival advantage to be able to do that. So the neocortex and even the mammalian brain, it's layered above the reptilian brain. Reptilian brain is really in the brainstem. So, we have the advantage of tens of millions of years of evolution on our side. And by the way, some people make the creationism argument and say, this wouldn't work for them. It doesn't matter if God put it there or if this is just something that evolved, that the bottom line is we are wired with the ability to, inhibit the reptilian brand. I think it's even in the Bible sometime, like there's no temptation that I haven't given you the capacity to resist. I'm not an expert with that, but so once you have that space, you can look very specifically at what your pig is saying and disempower it. That's fixing your thinking. You can ask yourself, what do I authentically need nutritionally? Sometimes this scruge occur because you're genuinely hungry. Maybe you had a skimpy breakfast. Maybe, it's been too long between lunch and dinner.

I know that for me, I started having kale and banana smoothies when I would have chocolate cravings. So the pig will present to you that your only options are to white knuckle it and starve without the chocolate or else to really indulge and go to town. But the truth is you have a lot of other options. You could get the energy in another form, right? And for me, that was the kale, I think it was the energy and also the minerals and the kale banana smoothie and then kale celery also helped. Sometimes you just need a break, we talked about that. Sometimes you need some human contact. We're a pack animal and we get a little bit frightened. We experience that organismic distress when we are separated from the tribe for too long. So we can tolerate it for a certain amount of time. But if we really don't know where I try this, then, sometimes we really need that attention. So you can ask yourself what you authentically need and you can remind yourself that, you do deserve some pleasure in your life. Your pig will say the only pleasure you can get is from the slop, but I've got a long list of things. I like to watch movies. I have a long list of movies that I could watch again if I want to be happy. I like to take a walk on the beach. I arrange my life so that I'm right by the beach. I like to look at old pictures of my dogs and friends and family and kind of reminisce about things. There's a long list of things that give me a little dopamine hit that I like to do. And you're entitled to some pleasure like that during the day. So you can make a long list of things that would give you some pleasure, take a break from the rat race. And, it's kind of interesting. People will give themselves permission to take a break to go get a chocolate bar, but they won't give themselves permission to just take a break.

Ashley James (1:09:46.159)

Actually, I have a list right here. I made this list. Yes. So you can hear it. It's my list. I made this, this was years ago, probably right around the time that you and I did our first interview together and I had it up on my fridge and that was two fridges ago, cause I've moved twice since. And I just found it as I was going through some boxes. because I had it up on two fridges ago for about seven years or so, just under seven years. 

Things to do instead of overeat, which was the title of it. But overeat for me could also be considered, because it wasn't like I sat there and ate 20 servings, right? For me, overeating could be, I had one serving, I'm full, but then I went back for half a serving more. Like for me, that's like anything beyond what I actually needed was an overindulgence trying to find pleasure in food. And, I think you can definitely find pleasure in healthy food. And then there's that responsibility of like, okay, I'm full. Anything beyond this is just gluttony, right? Or for me, overeating might be categorized as, the screw it, just do it, just eat what you want or eat what you're craving. So here was my list. Drink water, listen to music, adult coloring, which is surprisingly fun. Clean the house, which I know that doesn't sound fun, but you can get a dopamine hit from like decluttering an area or organizing area. We just did the bedroom this weekend and every time I walk in the bedroom I feel so good. And then when I declutter and organize the bathroom for like a week, every time I go in the bathroom, I get a dopamine hit. because I'm like, Oh yes, we re reorganize the bathroom. This looks so good. So cleaning in the moment doesn't sound fun, but once you start putting on some music, once you declutter an area, for days later, you get these pleasure hits from the accomplishment. And that feels really great. 

Sauna. because I've got it. Here's my- (knocks at portable sauna) Can you hear that? That's my Sunlighten Sauna right beside me in the office. Soak in magnesium. The I just got to do the plug coupon code LTH. My favorite is to soak in magnesium. That gets you out of the stress response. And you could be reading a book or watching TV or listening to music or being in a sauna while soaking in magnesium. So that's usually what I would do. Take a bath, walk outside.

There are some water stains, so I don't see what these are, but let's see, exercise.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (01:12:27.564)

What is adult coloring?

Ashley James (1:12:30.357)

Oh, adult coloring, it's coloring books for adults. Don't knock it till you try it. 

Go on Amazon and just type in, adult coloring book and you could do kid coloring books but the adult coloring books are like mandalas or way more like detailed. I have some that are like Bible verses and yes. And you can, I mean, you could use paint or pencils, color pencils, you could use crayons if you wanted to like get out your inner child. 

You could just grab the book and do it for five minutes. The only decisions you'd be making are like what color goes where, but it's very calming. The whole world kind of melts away and you're just staring at this piece of paper and filling it with color. And it is surprisingly calming. Then as you're doing it, you're like, I'm gonna give it to this friend or I'm gonna put it on the fridge, cause why not? Yes, I'm gonna, why not? Let's see.

You could give yourself a massage or go get a massage. Do some goal visualization. Play with a child or a pet. I wrote play with our son or play with a niece or nephew or something. I wrote Marie Kondo. Yes. Well, the list, I'm not even halfway done the list. I don't know if you want to hear all of it, but I sat down and I wanted to fill a piece of paper with every activity I could do to gain pleasure instead of, eat food for pleasure. My thing is I will get pleasure out of the healthy food I eat and the healthy portions I eat. And my inner brat or the inner pig will constantly tell me that I could never get pleasure from healthy food and I could never get pleasure from healthy portions. And to sit down and write this out, that inner pig would be screaming like, you have to eat, you have to eat the chocolate or you have to eat the whatever you're overindulging in. And by writing this huge list with like the page is full, it's 39 things, once you write this list, it's like, yes, and I'm sure I could come up with even more activities that I could do to gain pleasure. And what's great is that it's way more pleasure to do these things than to say, screw it, I'm just going to give into the craving. Because for some people, for days after they binge or after they give into that craving, they feel horrible. They feel horrible about themselves. They might have eaten food that made them feel bad.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (1:15:16.160)

Most people do.

Ashley James (1:15:17.442)

Yes, they beat themselves up and they're no better off. And I love that in your book, you talk about how there's actually studies that show that when you indulge in the craving, the pig lied to you and said, this is going to give you pleasure. It actually doesn't. We think it will, but it just shows that when they did tests, they found that it didn't increase pleasure. And in fact, in a lot of cases, it increased stress and decreased pleasure.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (01:15:47.371)

Well, and it decreases your ability to get pleasure from the natural pleasures in life. Like if you have a chocolate bar every day, your taste buds and your dopamine response down regulates as if you've been sleeping under a subway, and you can't hear the subway anymore after a while. And you won't taste the natural pleasures in fruit and vegetables and, fish or meat. You won't taste the natural pleasures in food after a while. And that's why so many people feel trapped.

When you listen to the pig's interpretation, that the only viable pleasure is slop. You know, these concentrated forms of all the things we talked about. And you ingest that every day. Your nervous system has to downregulate it. It can't respond the way that it's supposed to respond because it's a supersized stimulus. And so over time it downgrades its response the same way that your hearing would downgrade its response if you're sleeping underneath the subway. And because it's downgraded the response you can actually get to the point where chocolate doesn't feel pleasurable anymore. It just you kind of feel like you need it to feel normal.

I was just looking at some research on this, that it does generalize to a type of, depressive mood, this thymic mood, and even the inability to think logically as well as you did before you went through this.

Ashley James (01:17:29.176)

This is so important because we see that porn, pornography, when people first start out, largely men, but I think women, there's a percentage of women that watch porn, when they watch porn and they ejaculate or they have an orgasm, that first few times.

It's a huge dopamine, like just massive dopamine, and then it crashes for two weeks. There's a dopamine low for two weeks, and people often will then chase that high. And like you said, it desensitizes to the point where they have to go for more and more extreme porn and find just more and more extreme things to participate in or visually participate in order to even accomplish the same or try to chase that high, I accomplish the same pleasure they got the initial time. Like you said, chocolate, the first bite of that chocolate wedding cake is going to give you the most pleasure and every other bite after that will be less. But yet we'll eat the whole piece because we're chasing the high, we're trying to get back to the first fun thing. And that's what a lot of people describe meth, for example, their first or second time doing meth was amazing. And every other time they did it was just trying to get back to the pleasure they got the first time, but they were always dissatisfied. There's a study about obese people and naturally thin people when it came to expectations around food and pleasure. So they like hooked them up to brain scans and did whatever they did to figure this out. But obese people will think about or obsess about food, think about their meal that's coming up and think about the pleasure they're going to get, like sitting there going, I can't wait to get the pizza, I'm gonna go to Costco and get a whole pizza or whatever it is, like whatever food, insert food that you are daydreaming about.

And they're thinking about the pleasure they are going to get, but when they actually sit down to get it, they are disappointed. They do not achieve the amount of pleasure that they expected to. Whereas skinny people, naturally skinny people hardly ever obsess about or think about the food or the pleasure they're going to get from food. And yet when they eat, they actually experience way more pleasure than the obese people do. And that described my life so accurately, it really shook me because at the time I read that study, I hadn't become conscious of just how much I thought about food and obsessed about and thought about the pleasure I will be receiving from food and the disappointment that when I ate it and then the chasing the high and trying to find more and more pleasurable foods in order to find that high. And it is such a frustrating and disappointing journey to be stuck on.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (01:20:28.375)

Yes. But the good news is that there's also a phenomenon called upregulation. And so that if you're having a chocolate bar every day and you stop doing that, or maybe you go back to once a week or something like that, your taste bud and your dopamine response system, upregulates to the point that I think it doubles in six to eight weeks.

You don't have to believe me about this. You just have to try it. But before you know it, you are tasting the natural differences between different types of apples or vegetables, or, you're able to garner pleasure from more things that nature had to offer. So it's not all doom and gloom. 

Ashley James (01:10:23.915)

No, yes, no, absolutely. Well, this is why I learned so much from you is that when I had cut sugar out many years ago, probably around Episode 56, somewhere around there, I had a whole episode about doing a 30-day challenge, no sugar, and I was blown away by how much sugar is hidden in our food. We have like a Whole Foods sort of and I sat there and even though it's a healthier store They say there's no GMOs and they have a list of things that they will never have their food. Almost every single hot sauce had some form of sugar in it and I was really blown away by that. That it's very hard to find an oil-free hot sauce with no sugar. And it's even impossible to find a salt-free, oil-free, sugar-free hot sauce. So I just ended up, I mostly make my own for the, for the most part. 

Dr. Glenn Livingston (01:22:07.278)

I found one last week. I've had the same problem. It's called Melange of Peppers and it's from Whole Foods. It's a little expensive, but I was looking, I eat salt oil and starch free also. And it's called Melange of Peppers. It's really good actually.

Ashley James (01:22:28.260)

Nice. Well, just to prove my point, I went through every single thing I ate, looked through the ingredients, which I, at the time, was still eating some processed foods, so you still have to read ingredients, and it would annoy my husband because we'd go in to grocery shop and spend 90 minutes reading labels. But you have to be a food detective, and I just was blown away at how much sugar is hidden in our food, and also, it might not say sugar, it might say maltodextrin or fructose, or there's over 20 words that means added sugar.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (01:23:00.078)

Actually, when I work with people to make a sugar rule, I'll tell them that it's usually not sufficient to say, like I will only have sugar once a week or I'll never have sugar again. You need to make an inclusive rule rather than an exclusive rule. What that means is you say the only sweet tastes that I'll ever eat again are X, Y, and Z. Like, for me, it's whole fruit and berries. For other people, it might be whole fruit, berries, and honey in my tea or whole fruit berries, whatever. I mean, I'm not preaching you have to do any particular thing, but if you make a list of the sweet tastes that you will eat, as opposed to those that you won't eat, then your pig is not gonna fool you about all those other words.

Ashley James (01:23:41.738)

Yes, but you have to know the words in order to avoid them, because then you accidentally eat sugar because there it says maltodextrin and you didn't know that was sugar, as an example.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (01:23:50.646)

Oh yes, and in all sorts of savory foods, there's a lot of added sugar too. Yes

Ashley James (01:23:55.382)

Yes, it's just wild. So when I gave up sugar, which I was a sugar holic, I loved it. And it's been years. I talk about upregulation. First of all, I don't even enjoy it. If you talked to Ashley 10 years ago, she'd be like, who are you? I don't even get pleasure from it. It's sickly sweet.

And when I eat an apple, I have to put cinnamon on it just to dull down the intensity of the sweetness. It's just apples alone are too sweet to me. But now when I taste kale, like there's a burst of flavor. When I eat fruits and vegetables there's a burst of flavor I did not experience 10 years ago. So you talk about upregulation, it is possible, and that's why it's so exciting that you can get such pleasure from healthy foods. I still though have to separate and put a pause in between me and that brat or that pig, because that that it still comes out, especially in the screw it, just do it. If like it's really late in the day and I'm hungry and I've been really busy, oh, just order in or just get takeout or just let's just go to restaurant or just let's just get X, Y, and Z.

And that is such an easy trap to fall in. Let's just go through the drive-through, right? Like so many people fall into that trap of processed food that's fast food or easy food, because the pig says, you're tired, you've worked a long day. This is so much easier, let's just do this.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (01:25:28.904)

There are a few other things that we've learned in the last eight years that make the new book different than the old book. Do you think I could mention a couple of them?

Ashley James (01:25:36.813)

Yes, absolutely.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (01:25:38.019)

The first one is that overeating isn't a unitary habit. It's a collection of habits. And in order to really overcome it, you need to make a list of those habits and extinguish them one by one. So for example, suppose that you want to give up pizza. Suppose you're just eating way too much pizza and you need to give it up. I'm not saying you have to do that. Two out of three people will be able to moderate it, but let's say you need to give it up. And let's say you've developed a habit of stopping at a pizzeria on the way home from work at your new job. You just moved to a new city and every time on the way home from work, you stop at the pizzeria. And so you say to yourself, I will never eat pizza again. And you drive past the pizzeria and you feel the cravings and you do a lot of the things we talk about and your pig will say a bunch of stuff. Oh, come on. You could start tomorrow. You worked out hard enough. A couple of bites are not going to hurt a couple of slices, whatever it's going to say. And you disempower that and you do your breathing and all other things we talked about. And then about 30 days later, you probably should not be too bothered by the pizza cravings anymore. Research shows that somewhere around 20 to 30 exposures without rewarding the craving is what it takes. So you, right? So you have the pizza place as the stimulus as you're passing by, you don't go in, your brain tries to get you going, but you don't go in and eventually, your brain will label that craving as dormant because it no longer wants to waste energy on things that you're not going to do. Remember the brain's job is to acquire calories and automate the acquisition of calories.

So it will label that learning as dormant. That means if you do it again, it will wake it up pretty quickly, but it's not gonna bother you about it after about somewhere between 20 and 30 days. Well, then you find all of a sudden that you go to your mom's place and you're playing bridge with her and the girls. And you and your mom are accustomed to having pizza every time you go to the place and play bridge with her and the girls and you get this incredible craving and it's hard to resist and you go to time on the pizza. Well, what a lot of people do at that point is they say this is too hard, I failed. But you didn't fail. You succeeded in extinguishing the pizza place as a signal for pizza. You didn't make a plan to extinguish your mom's bridge game as a stimulus for pizza. And for most cravings, there are usually about 70 to 80 percent of the problem is tied to one particular stimulus. So you can make tremendous progress by just working on one thing But there are infrequent stimulus stimuli that you haven't thought of and they comprise the other 20 or 30 percent and it's really important that you know that so you don't give up and think that you failed.

It just means that you're going to have to have 20 or 30 bridge games before you feel like, the bridge game doesn't bother you anymore. You don't really want the pizza at the bridge game. We often have people when they make a list of all the different places they expect to be exposed to a pizza stimulus. Well, we'll kind of order them in order of how frequently they occur and how much they bother them. And then we'll have people send themselves an email to arrive, just before that's going to happen. So if you know you're going to be playing bridge with mom on Saturday the 14th, then in the morning of Saturday the 14th, an email shows up and it says, Hey, this is your higher self. Just want to remind you, you're going to be, really craving the pizza at the bridge place. I want you to have this meal before you go there. So you're not too hungry. I want you to give your mom an extra big hug. So she feels love without having to feed you pizza. I want you to figure out what you're going to do instead while you're there. And here's all the things your pig is going to say. And this is why they're wrong but you send yourself an email and that arrives that morning. Then you're going to be alert. You're not going to be caught by surprise that there's this other stimuli that you're not used to, which you thought she already fixed the problem. And this turns out to be a big vehicle for defeating the cravings.

The other thing that misleads people sometimes is that they think that the extinction curve should go straight down. Let's just go back to talking about the daily drive past the pizza place. You would think that if you decided I'll never have pizza again, day two would be less of a craving than day one, and day three would be less of a craving than day two, all the way on down to day 29 or 30 when it wasn't occurring anymore.

But that's not actually what happens, because in nature, the brain, it wouldn't be advantageous for the brain to give up on the acquisition of calories that quickly. Let's say there's this caveman named Thag, 100,000 years ago. And Thag figured out that chimpanzees, following a chimpanzee could lead him to a banana tree. Well, Thag follows a chimp to a banana tree, he cordies himself on bananas, takes him back for his family. That's great survival advantage. Thag follows the chimp the next day to the banana tree, does it all week long, he's living high on the hog, right? And then all of a sudden the next day, the chimp leads to a banana tree that doesn't have any bananas in it. Well, is it more advantageous for Thag to keep following the chimp or to go try to find other banana trees on his own?

It turns out it's more advantageous to keep following the chimp because probably that as the bananas get a little scarcer, the chimp is going to find banana trees 80% of the time and then 70% of the time. And so what Thag would actually do is double down on his efforts because it would be more painful to lose that signal and have to go find another tree, make an effort on himself to go find it, than to just put up with the 10 or 20 or 30% of the time that he doesn't get rewarded. So how this plays out in everyday life is that when the reward starts to be available intermittently, we actually crave it more. It's kind of like a slot machine. And so you have to push through. So there's like a little temper tantrum somewhere around like five to ten times. There's a little temper tantrum that your brain will pull where you're actually going to get worse cravings than you ever had before. And if you push through that, then the brain starts to go and it goes down more or less literally. And then somewhere around the 25 to 30 day mark, it's got a tiny little blip and cravings, and then it mostly goes away. 

So having that technical scientific understanding of how cravings actually work and the function they're supposed to serve, it'll help you to power through. It also helps you not to go into battle with a plastic helmet. Like this is a serious thing to extinguish your cravings. You've got to figure out what else are you going to eat? What are you going to do to take care of yourself when that temper tantrum hits? Make a list of them, but don't try to extinguish every last one of them at onceand be proud of yourself, celebrate the success when you get through. So I wanted to be sure that people knew that.

Ashley James (01:33:53.798)

Absolutely. Well, we only scratch the surface of your whole system. I definitely encourage listeners to go read your book, Defeat Your Cravings and go to your website, defeatyourcravings.comSo we have a book. Now you've got these other books in the past. And what you have now, the Defeat Your Cravings, is the evolution of all the work you've done with so many people.

And I feel it as I've as I read through your book, I felt like it was it was so much more complete, even though the stuff in the past helped. You've got more insights after working with so many people and it's concise. And as you said, people are going to get faster results with this new system. So they go to and they can read your book. What if they want to work with you? How does that work?

Dr. Glenn Livingston (01:34:46.882)

So what I suggest that you do is click the big blue button on the website,, and sign up for the reader bonus list. When you do that, you'll hear what it's like to work with me. You'll get a list that you've got a set of coaching sessions that I recorded, in full so you can see how this process transforms people from feeling hopeless and despairing and desperate about food sometimes to feeling confident and enthusiastic and, and hopeful. You'll get a set of food plan starter templates to help you see samples of food rules for any dietary philosophy. So we're diet agnostic. You can do this on any reasonably nutritious philosophy.

And a whole bunch of other things like little recordings to walk you through difficult moments and it's all free. So it's a whole bunch of free stuff and I recommend people start there. There's also a podcast you can subscribe to. Once you do that you will be led or you can look at the coaching part of the website if you want to we do have a coaching program, we call it the Unlimited Coaching Program because you have as many sessions as you need to with your coach with certain conditions like, you guys have to kind of agree on what you're going to do between sessions. You don't schedule another one until it's done and that kind of thing. But we do have a 90 day program with a lot of success. Part of that program are daily life support groups. So every day of the week, there is a group you can come to. If you're struggling with anything, I run several of them myself right now. I'm running four of them. I can't promise to always do that, but four days a week, I'm running a daily support group. 

If you wanted to go directly there and see that set to, but I highly recommend that what you do first is just immerse yourself in the free stuff. Click the big blue button, sign up for the reader bonus list, listen to the podcasts, read the articles, join our free community and talk to some of the people there. I highly recommend you do that. So big blue button. It's that simple.

Ashley James (01:36:59.309)

Nice. Very cool. Have you ever looked at the statistics around your system and compared it to other systems to see that you're more successful or as successful? Or like, can you talk a bit about the results you guys get in the long term?

Dr. Glenn Livingston (01:37:19.721)

Over the last three years, this is in the previous program, because the new program is, well, it's new. But over the last three years in the last program, in the first month, people would get an approximately 90% reduction in over-eating episodes. And that's by self-report. It's not like a double-blind controlled study published in a…

But still that's pretty darn good. When we go out to about six months, it's more like 60%, but you divide that up into people who are still using the tools and people who decided not to do it anymore. And you can see that the people who use the tools do well and the people who don't don't. So at some point I'm looking to get third party clinical trials funded so that I can really prove this and maybe work with insurance companies to bring it to the world at large.

But I'm getting a little old and that's, that's a 10 year process. So right now I'm just focusing on helping as many people that want to come from a homegrown personal coaching. I've got some coaches that work with me. But really we get much better results with people who've been listening to the podcast for a little while first. So I just recommend that you go sign up for the free stuff.

Ashley James (01:38:39.750)

Yes, I love that you give away so much and then so many people can transform themselves on their own and get such great results on their own. And it's those that a small percentage of people after doing all the free stuff, they're like, you know what I really want? I shouldn't say small percentage. I don't know what percentage it is, but you did have like a million readers and then out of that, 2000 people were like, no, I really want to work with someone one-on-one and man, all the amazing reviews for all of your books.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (01:39:09.082)

Oh, I mean, we have more than 20,000 reviews. So not on the new book, we're just starting with a new book. 

Ashley James (01:39:19.358)

Yes, exactly. You just came out with this book, but again, your latest book and your latest program is the evolution of everything you've done over the last eight years. So seeing that you have is the best of the best. You really figured it out. I mean, I know you figured stuff out before, but you really figured it out this time and the 20,000 reviews, people's lives are transformed. Like so many people's lives are transformed by following your system. And I love seeing that. And then people who, in addition to that, need some extra help, they can get that through your coaching program.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (01:39:51.255)

I haven't held anything back in the book, just like I'm not holding anything back in this in this call. I don't have a lot of money, but I used to make a lot of money. But I was on the wrong side of the war. I feel like I did the wrong thing. And so it's money is still important to me, but it's kind of on my second list. My first list is really how many people can I help? And let me get this out there. That's why the book is free for Kindle on The Nook.

That's why we put out so much free material with the podcast and all the freebies to help you walk through those hard moments. 

Ashley James (01:40:31.067)

Love it. Sometimes people can go through all the programs and all the free stuff and still really want that personalized one-on-one attention and then they can do the online course with you. But like you said, you're not holding the good stuff back for working with you one-on-one. It's all laid out for free. And should someone want the additional support or like the daily calls or the coaching, any of that is also available, which I think is really beautiful. And I love your system.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (01:40:59.918)

You could read an exercise book and use it to get in shape, but most people want to go to a gym with classes, and some of those people want to work one on one with a trainer also. So it's kind of like that.

Ashley James (01:41:13.254)

Nice. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I can't believe 90 minutes has just flown by. Is there anything you'd like to share or say to wrap up today's interview?

Dr. Glenn Livingston (01:41:23.995)

Boom, chug a lugga boom, chug a lugga boom, chug a lugga la boom.

Ashley James (01:41:30.871)

That was probably the best out of over 500 episodes. That was the best one. I love it.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (01:41:37.947)

I don't have anything else that's brilliant to say that I didn't get to say. I mean, I probably do. Oh, there is one thing. There is one thing, earlier you were talking about the comfort food in response to the stress response, it's important to stop thinking about it like comfort food because what you're eating is not just for comfort.

I often highlight this out, highlight this people to people, because they'll say they have to numb out. They were emotionally upset on the answer to them out. And I said, it's not really what you're doing. You're actually getting high with food and I'll prove it to you. Did you ever go to the dentist and they say we're all out on over cane and referred, we're going to have to inject you with some chocolate. But there's something else going on besides numbing out.

The things that we go to at those times are unnaturally concentrated concoctions, industrially concentrated concoctions of starch and sugar and fat and all that kind of, and then another word for that is a drug. So that's why I think it's apropos to think I'm getting high with food. The other thing is that the relationship between emotions and overeating is two ways. Most people think you have this uncomfortable emotion that causes you to want to eat some chocolate. They don't understand that the chocolate also causes uncomfortable emotions by the principle of operant conditioning. So for example, a lot of people tell me they can't get to sleep without overeating and, but because they feel too anxious.

And I'll tell them that, well, do you know that anxiety has a physiological correlate? Your blood pressure goes up a little bit and your galvanic skin response goes up and your respiration and your perspiration. And all of these are measurable. In animal studies, for example, they give baboons a sugar reward, whenever they have raised blood pressure, don't you know that those baboons can be conditioned to have a raise of blood pressure more frequently as a group.

Ashley James (01:43:57.552)

Oh my gosh, that's right.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (01:43:59.888)

And so if you're telling yourself that you need this comfort food because you're anxious, you might also tell yourself this comfort food might be making me more anxious. It might be reinforcing it in the long run.

Ashley James (01:44:12.364)

So your body creates anxiety, so you will go eat that food.

Dr. Glenn Livingston (01:44:17.840)

Yes the body is a calorie acquiring machine. And when you show it that it can get a lot of calories, if there's a certain physiological state, it's more likely to create that physiological state in the future. 

Ashley James (01:44:32.516)

Yes and that's what we really want to have clarity over. We want to just be consciously aware of that and not reinforce that. Does the Defeat Your Cravings system help us to really be conscious of that and make sure that we don't reinforce our body creating a negative stimulus in order to gain “comfort food”? 

Dr. Glenn Livingston (01:45:03.770)

All of that.Yes

Thank you, Ashley.

Ashley James (01:45:05.019)

Love it. So cool. Yeah, that's wild. Thank you. Thank you for coming. And so excited for the listeners to learn your new system and help them.You call it Defeat Your Cravings, but I think there's a lot of different words for it. It could be that nighttime eating binge eating, overeating, emotional eating, just all of it. It's that big soup. And some people say, well, I'm not an overeater. But if you feel like food is controlling you instead of the other way around, if you can't eat a healthy diet because you're going here and there, your brain is kind of guiding you. Your inner pig or inner brat is guiding you. Then you're going to benefit from doing Dr. Glenn Livingston system. Awesome. Can't wait to have you back on the show. Because, you're just going to keep evolving and growing and learning. And you'll have new stuff to share with us next time. So I can't wait to have you back. And what's the name of your new podcast?

Dr. Glenn Livingston (01:46:08.718)

Defeat Your Cravings Podcast

Ashley James (01:46:09.234)

Okay, there we go. You know how to brand yourself.

Glenn Livingston (01:46:14.730)

At the It'll just take you to a different page with a website where you can sign up for that.

Ashley James (01:46:18.606)

Nice. Okay, great. Of course, all the links to everything that Dr. Glenn Livingston does is going to be in the show notes of today's podcast, so It was great having you on again. Can't wait to have you back.

Glenn Livingston (01:46:28.956)

Thanks, Ashley.


Get Connected with Dr. Glenn Livingston!

Official Website

Defeat Your Cravings Podcast


Book by Dr. Glenn Livingston

Defeat Your Cravings


Check out these other amazing episodes with Dr. Glenn Livingston!

Episode 249: The Impact of Eating Right

Episode 231 – Willpower To Stop Bingeing

Episode 56 – How To End Binge Eating

Nov 20, 2023

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511: Grow A Younger Brain, Phycocyanin & SOD Spirulina Algae Secrets

In this interview with Catherine Arnston, founder of EnergyBits, the focus is on the transformative health benefits of algae. Catherine discusses the potential of algae in improving brain function, preventing cancer, and enhancing cardiovascular health. Emphasizing the importance of choosing clean sources of algae, she explains why EnergyBits prioritizes product quality. Practical advice is provided on incorporating algae into daily meals, with a particular emphasis on the distinctions between chlorella and spirulina. The conversation also delves into the production process and nutritional profiles of these microalgae, highlighting their rich content of essential nutrients. Catherine expresses her aspiration to pursue further research in algae nutrition, concluding with a discussion on the critical role of algae in gut health and their potential to revolutionize overall well-being.


  • The Benefits of Chlorella and Spirulina 
  • Spirulina Benefits for Brain Health 
  • The Power of Spirulina's Phycocyanin 
  • Investing in Health
  • SOD and Algae Supplements Importance
  • Algae Benefits for Healthy Lifestyle 


Ashley James (00:00.737)

Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I'm your host, Ashley James. This is Episode 511.

I am so excited for today's guest and I know you will be too when you hear that we have Catharine Arnston back on the show. So excited to have you back. Welcome. 

Catharine Arnston (00:24.804)

I think this is my third, or is this my fourth?

Ashley James (00:27.340)

No, this is more than your third. Let me give you the list. You might be up there for one of my guests that's been the most frequent. Actually, frequent flyer. That's it. We've given you the Learn True Health frequent flyer. You've entered the Frequent Flyer Club.

We had you in Episode 234 talking about algae, just going deep into discussing algae and chlorella and spirulina. Episode 265, we talked about the superfood components of algae. Episode 266 was all about vitamin K2, of course, from algae, which is a great, great source. Episode 357, debunked algae myths.

I really like that one because, everyone's an expert these days and just because they have doctor in front of their name and then they write some article that was just a real misconstrued idea from one study and then all of a sudden everyone's it's bad science and everyone's running around like it's the truth and we have to really keep our heads about us and look a little deeper and so I really liked that episode.

And then you were on Episode 487, mitochondrial self-healing superfoods, which we dove deep into chlorella and spirulina, understanding how they can help us not only detoxify, not only nutrify, but also help the mitochondria be healthier. And of course, when you get into understanding the body's ability to heal itself, you learn that- every disease has one thing in common besides inflammation. Go a bit deeper than that. On a cellular level, every disease becomes a mitochondrial disease. And if your mitochondria isn't working, you're dead. 

Catharine Arnston (02:11.923)

Yes, exactly. And by the way, 90 percent of that inflammation is in the mitochondria. So their mitochondria and inflammation are inseparable. If you understand mitochondria, you will understand how to maintain, protect and regain your health. It's that simple.

Ashley James (02:28.947)

And you love digging into research and then, bringing it back to us and giving it to us in a way that we can, we can take your thousands of hours of diving in through the years. And then you condense it and give us, the bullet points we need to know so that we can walk out into our life with this information to best help ourselves be healthy, as healthy as possible. This is episode 511. Can you believe it? I know, is that cool?

Catharine Arnston (03:03.016)

Oh my god, thank you, I'm so honored.

Ashley James (03:06.222) 

I think I'm handing you your frequent flyer pin right now. And today we're gonna get into something you've been researching for a long time and seeing all the studies. And of course you see the results in those who regularly eat chlorella and spirulina. Now of course in past episodes there's really very few companies where you're gonna get clean, very, very clean chlorella and spirulina from. 

My favorite being your company, Listeners can use coupon code LTH as in Learn True Health when they go to and buy Catharine Arnston's amazing chlorella and spirulina. You can chew it, you can just swallow it, or you can take a handful and throw it in your smoothie. There's all kinds of ways you can incorporate it. What I really appreciate about your chlorella and spirulina is you go above and beyond to make sure that they're very, very clean. 

So many companies out there have to have the warning on the back of the label proposition. I always forget the number. Proposition, what? 

Catharine Arnston (04:04.467)

I think it's 65 or 64.

Ashley James (04:05.873

Yes, proposition something. California says that this contain something that can cause cancer and all these things. And that's because there's heavy metals in a lot of those other algae companies because of their poor practices and you have outstanding practices. 

So of course that means it does cost more because you go above and beyond in testing and in the farming practice to this crop to make sure that it is pure. So we talked a lot about that in our past episode. So we're not gonna get into that too much in this episode because I really wanna spend a lot of time diving into what you're here to talk about today which is maximizing brain health, preventing cancer, and then of course, by doing those things, you're actually also supporting amazing cardiovascular health. 

But I really wanna make sure listeners know to go to, use coupon code LTH to get the listener discount. Thank you for that, by the way. Thank you for giving us the discount. I can't tell you how many times my family has sat around in the evening to watch something on TV. We like learning stuff. Well, my husband does not wanna watch fake TV. He really likes documentaries.

So we've found documentaries as a family we can watch with our eight year old and we'll sit around and we will pass the bag of EnergyBits around and we'll eat it instead of popcorn.

Catharine Arnston (05:25.882)

You're making me so happy.

Ashley James (05:28.418)

It is amazingly delicious. Of course, it is a fantastic to add to your trail mix or make your own trail mix, but I'll sit there and pop them like candy and they have that wonderful crunch and that wonderful saltiness. And it's not overly salty, but it is for me better than popcorn.

Catharine Arnston (05:45.624)

Yeah, and I actually put sea salt on my chlorella and sometimes add pistachio nuts and OMG, it is my favorite food. I have them for lunch, snacks, dinner. When you add the sea salt, it's particularly the chlorella. Although spirulina tastes a little bit better, but definitely the chlorella. It's a game changer and then you're eating it, so you know you're eating food. And when we dig into the subject matter of today, I'll start by just giving a quick thumbnail overview of the different two algae, because they are quite different. They do different things in different parts of your body, and you take them at different times of the day for maximum and optimal benefits. And they work, as you said, to protect your brain health, protect you against cancer, and protect you against heart disease. And those are the three biggies in our world today. And the brain health is more than Alzheimer's. It's anxiety, it's depression, and we'll talk about some of the science that's coming out that reinforces why spirulina in particular is amazing for brain health.

Ashley James (06:54.772)

Love it. Now in becoming a health coach, I took a year long program through the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. 

Catharine Arnston (07:04.294)

Me too!

Ashley James (09:05.370)

Oh really? You went to IIN? 

Catharine Arnston (07:07.222)

Yeah, but I went there the last second last year they were live classes. So yeah, I graduated in 2009.

Ashley James (07:13.498)

Oh my gosh. I love that. I, oh, I'm not sure if you had Dr. Daniel Amon as one of the teachers. Did you happen to have him? Okay.

Catharine Arnston (07:23.041)

I don't know if I did or not, but we're hoping I have someone who's setting up a meeting with me because we want to work with him.

Ashley James (07:29.977)

I want you to work with him. So I'll let the listeners know in on it. So I went to IIN when it was not live, it's all prerecorded. And it was kind of like every week, kind of like watching these 45 minute long Ted talks. You know how you watch a Ted talk and you wish it was 45 minutes long, cause it was so good? Well, that's what it was like that every single week. And there was audios and there was written stuff. And it's done in a way that even busy career moms or working women or men, time should not be an issue because you can break it down and do it 20 minutes a day kind of thing. And I absolutely love that it could fit into my busy schedule. And Dr. Daniel Amos, that week we were studying all of his work and I was blown away because he figured out after doing thousands and thousands of brain scans and then using more holistic based medicine, he was able to take people who had Swiss cheese brain, basically the scans would show that there was pockets in the brain looking like Swiss cheese that had diminished blood flow or almost like no blood flow over time, those areas were overly toxic because the blood flow can't come in, it can't cleanse the glymph, can't drain out and people's brains were just becoming Swiss cheese and eventually it was like dementia, right? But he could detect dementia 30 years before it ever took place or more. And what he figured out the number one thing to preventing and reversing. He was able to take people with Swiss cheese brain, put them on an amazing nutrition program and exercise, everything to do with helping cardiovascular health, helping the vasculature, helping blood flow. And he was able to reverse the Swiss cheese brain. So five, 10 years later, they actually anti-aged the brain, right? The brain now is younger, healthier. And that's where you live. Like, this is our house. Our body's our house. So this is where we live. And what I love, the big aha moment, is that everything you do to support your brain also supports your heart and vice versa.

So today, and yeah, exactly, right? We often think of the body as broken into these parts

that aren't affecting each other because that's how allopathic medicine works. You go to the liver specialist, you go to the stomach specialist, you go to the eye specialist, and no one talks to each other. And this is the really annoying part of Western medicine is that we're all broken down into parts when the body really should be treated as a whole. And that's where holistic medicine comes in. So we're looking at the body as a whole, but Dr. Daniel Amon was able to see, Oh wow! In focusing on helping brain health, we actually then corrected a bunch of other stuff too. So that's why I'm very excited for you to dive into brain health today. And I really hope you get to work with Daniel Amon because I'm a big fan of his work and I'm excited to hear about that.

Catharine Arnston (10:37.185)

Yes, yes, me too. Yes, and when he sees what spirulina and chlorella do for the brain, I think he'll flip out because my specialty is this area of algae nutrition and correlating all the nutrients that are uniquely found in algae, not available in any other foods, if it comes from a good source. And you're right, it's not just being the clean source, it's the production process, because, as I get into this in a bit deeper, growing Algae isn't like growing tomatoes or broccoli or carrots, it's more like wine, and when you grow and make wine, it's affected by the angle of the sun, but most particularly by the production process. And so, the thing that distinguishes us from pretty much everybody else is the production process. We do it so carefully that we retain all these nutrients that are other companies are killing because they dry their algae with high heat. But I'm getting ahead of myself. 

So let's talk about that brain. But before we get to that, I'm just going to give you a thumbnail on the two algae in case you haven't heard the other episodes to understand that there are different types of algae and they do different things. So the big broad sweep is that there's something called macroalgae and there is microalgae. We're going to be talking about microalgae today but let me tell you what macroalgae is. It's that big stringy stuff that washes up on shore also known as seaweed because it's found in the sea and it's still good for you because it has lots of fiber and iodine, because the iodine comes from the ocean but there's virtually no nutrition so high fiber high iodine both of which are good for you.

Well, I don't know if you don't have a hypo thyroid condition. Microalgae is the complete opposite. It has either virtually no fiber or no fiber. I'll give you the distinction in a minute, but it has the highest concentration of nutrition in the world. This is because it's called microalgae because it's microscopic in size. You can get a million of these microalgae on the head of a pin.

Now it has so many nutrients so that when you consolidate them into these little tiny tablets it's there's nothing in the world with more nutrition than these tablets. One tablet has the same nutrition as an entire plate of vegetables and microalgae compared to macroalgae is everywhere. Microalgae is in the ocean but it's also in the lakes, the rivers, the streams, your swimming pool, the soil and there's a few strains of macroalgae, the stringy stuff.

But there are tens of thousands of strains of microalgae. And the two that are harvested as food crops. So not from the ocean. Yes, there is microalgae in the ocean, but that's not what we're talking about today. We're talking about spirulina and chlorella, which are the two microalgae that are harvested in fresh water. It's called hydroponic. And lots of vegetables are grown this way.

So number one, you need to understand that algae, microalgae, which we're talking about today, is a food crop. It is not a supplement. Supplements are made from extracts and then they're mashed up with heat in factories. We're talking about a dried type of vegetable grown in fresh water, so not from the ocean, so no toxins. And we do not use high heat to dry our algae and we do not add anything to it. So our algae tablets are whole food, they're raw, vegan, unprocessed, highly concentrated with nutrition, but they do completely different things. Spirulina and chlorella are like night and day, or chalk and cheese. Some of you maybe have family members and you're quite different from them. So is algae. The spirulina, which we'll talk about next, is completely different from chlorella. And the things that they do, it does in your body, are also very different.

So spirulina is known as having the highest protein in the world, it's three times the amount of protein, and very high B vitamins. By the way, it has 18 of the 20 aminos, including the nine that your body can't make, so it's a complete protein. And it gives you energy because of the B vitamins converting the protein, the aminos, because they're all individual aminos, into glucose for your body. And it also is a vasodilator, so it opens up your blood vessels and has lots of iron, which carries oxygen to your blood. So that's why we call it our spirulina, Energybits, because it gives you energy in the moment. But as you'll find as we get into the deeper dive on brain health and also the heart health, it has nutrients in it that protect and stimulate your mitochondria. Now your mitochondria are what generate cellular energy, which is called ATP. So you get energy in the moment when you have spirulina which we call Energybits. We also have another brand called BeautyBits. They're exactly the same, just packaged differently. But you also, because of the nutrients, we'll talk about in a minute, get additional long-term cellular energy. Now cellular energy is necessary, it's called ATP, for everything that you do. It's not just energy that you need to run to the grocery store or go do a workout. This is cellular energy that helps you breathe, that helps you think, it moves your lymphatic system, it helps your heart, it's what drives your heart to beat, your cells to replicate, or your autophagy, which is cellular death to occur. It generates everything, all energy for everything that you do. When you have cellular energy, you are alive. When you don't have cellular energy, that's when problems start surfacing.

That's when you get indigestion. That's when you have brain fog. That's when you start not being able to have a strong immune system. That's when you can't fight off cancer cells. I tell people having cellular energy is like money. You know, when you have more money, you can do more things and you have more choices. Cellular energy is exactly same thing. When you have more ATP, you can do more things and you have more choices. So everything that you do now that you know about this is you should be protecting your mitochondria so they can generate more cellular energy because that cellular energy is what helps you sleep, it helps you fight disease, it helps you recover from any kind of illness, it helps every part of your body, every cell in your body and spirulina as you're going to find out has a couple of nutrients that are particularly powerful and critical to generating cellular energy and protecting your mitochondria.

So you get that long-term energy from spirulina that is very unique and these nutrients aren't found anywhere else. Spirulina also satisfies your hunger, and it has zero carbs. We work with ketogenic physicians, fasting physicians, because it does not interfere with your fast, and yet it gives you all the energy, mental and physical, and satisfies your hunger without interfering with your fast, without decreasing your ketones or increasing your glucose. So it's a perfect food for any time of the day You could snap have some for the morning have some in the afternoon In fact, that's generally when we recommend people to have the spirulina in the morning because you're hungry and tired when you get up or in the afternoon when you get a slump or before a workout because that's when you need the nourishment for your brain and for your body.

By the way, spirulina is called a blue-green algae because it has two pigments in it. Chlorella, which we'll talk about in a minute, only has one. Now one pigment that's in spirulina you'll know about. It's chlorophyll and that's what makes plants green. And there is chlorophyll in spirulina. But the other pigment that you've probably never heard of before, it's the blue pigment and it's called Phycocyanin and I'm going to spell it for you because I encourage you to google this particularly because we're going to talk about how Phycocyanin has been proven to kill cancer cells and Phycocyanin does not exist anywhere else in the universe except in spirulina and it can only be in spirulina that has not been dried with high heat which is us or raw spirulina. So let me spell Phycocyanin for you, it's P-H-Y-C-O-C-Y-A-N-I-N. And when we get to our discussion on cancer, you can Google phycocyanin and cancer treatments and you'll see all the articles that have been in the PubMed or the National Institute of Health for a very long time. But of course, who's gonna tell you about these things, right? Well, that's what we're here for, right, Ashley? We're opening the Pandora's box to tell you things that nobody else will. So spirulina, because it has this blue pigment that has unique properties, some of which increase energy, some of which kill cancer cells, but all of which protect your mitochondria, it's pretty powerful. But chlorella is a green algae. It only has one pigment, that's chlorophyll, and indeed it has the highest amount of chlorophyll in the world. It has 25 times more chlorophyll than even liquid chlorophyll. And it also has 500 times more chlorophyll than something like arugula or a thousand times more chlorophyll than Chinese greens. There is nothing in the world with more chlorophyll than chlorella algae, which is why it's called chlorella, because of the chlorophyll. And what's so important about chlorophyll? Well, it heals your cell walls, it builds your blood, it has the same chemical composition in fact as your hemoglobin. So that's very important. It's also very cleansing. Chlorella also does have fiber. Oh, I forgot to mention spirulina has zero fiber. The reason why this is important is because this is one of the reasons why you get energy from it because there is nothing for your body to break down. There's no cellulose wall. And this is why it gets into your bloodstream so quickly and the nutrients can be directed instantly to your mitochondria or wherever they need to go. 

Chlorella has the hardest cell wall in the plant kingdom so it does take about an hour and a half to be fully absorbed but the amazing thing about that hard cell wall is that it attaches to toxins and heavy metals and when we get to brain health we'll talk about this a bit more but it pulls out any kind of heavy metals from all your cells, all your organs.

And for that reason, we generally recommend chlorella before bed or after a workout. Because when you sleep, that's when your body goes through a detox repair cycle. So if you take chlorella before you go to bed, you'll be able to have a more effective detox and remove heavy metals. Although I will put the caveat that you can have either spirulina or chlorella at any time of the day, with each other, separate, with food, without food, with water, it doesn't matter. You can have them as often as you want and as much as you want because again they are food. We generally recommend 10 tablets of each one, spirulina in the morning and 10 chloral at night. But if you have any health condition, you really should be taking 30 of each until you get a clear diagnosis. And I have way more than that and have for the 13 years that I've been using it.

So chlorella is a detoxing algae because of that hard cell wall, a cleansing algae because of the chlorophyll, and also it builds your immune system. Your immune system is primarily in your gut, and the combination of the chlorophyll, the hard cell wall which has fiber which feeds the gut biome and the bacteria down there, and also chlorella has all the nutrients that are necessary for a strong immune system.

So it's very much a wellness algae as opposed to spirulina, which is an energizing and nourishing algae. So we call our chlorella RecoveryBits because it helps you recover your health or recover from your day, recover from toxins. It even pulls out alcohol and lactic acid. So you could take it after drinking any wine or anything or after sports to get rid of lactic acid. So it's very much a cleansing algae as opposed to the nourishing spirulina. And I came up with this kind of fun analogy to help people remember the different types of algae and what they do differently and when to take them. Because I give a lot of lectures at conferences in fancy hotels. And it dawned on me that spirulina, because it's so nourishing to your body and to your brain, is sort of like room service.

It gives you everything you need for the day. And then chlorella, because it's so cleansing and detoxing and gets rid of all the junk in your trunk, it's like housekeeping. Housekeeping comes in and takes all this stuff out that you don't need. So think of spirulina as room service and chlorella as housekeeping. Another simple way to think about it, and we'll get to this in a few minutes, because spirulina is so nourishing to the mitochondria and so healing to the mitochondria and because the highest concentration of mitochondria are found in the cells in your brain you have two million mitochondria per cell in your brain two million think about that the next highest is actually women's eggs after that it's your heart and then your regular cells have maybe anywhere from a hundred to a thousand mitochondria per cell, but the highest concentration of mitochondria are where the greatest energy needs are, and that's your brain. Your brain is a workhorse for energy. So think of spirulina as brain food. You know, it occurred to me, you know, a lot of people eat fatty fish like salmon, and they know it as brain food. Well, part of the benefit of that is because these deep cold water fish have a lot of omega-3 in them. And I tell people, well, where do you think the fish get the omega-3 from? Yes, they get it from algae. So here's spirulina, I forgot to mention, has high essential fatty acids, including omega-3. So think of spirulina as brain food, just like you do with salmon or some of these other cold water fish. 

Ashley James (25:56.604)

Cut out the middleman. The salmon, the salmon's the middleman. Just go eat with the salmon, with this, the fish eat the algae, the salmon eat the algae or the salmon eat other fish. But it all came from the algae to begin with.

Catharine Arnston (26:11.146)

Correct, correct. And then think of chlorella as healing your gut because that's where your immune system is. That's where your microbiome is. And chlorella heals the gut and it's been used for IBS and Crohn's disease for decades because of the chlorophyll, the hard cell wall that attaches the toxins, the fiber that feeds the gut biome. 

So Spirulina is brain food, chlorella is gut food. And let's not forget that there's a highway between the two of them called the vagus nerve that connects the brain to the gut. And this is where the real magic happens because as you mentioned earlier, as you heal your brain you are going to be healing other parts of your body but most particularly your gut. And on the other hand, as you heal your gut, then you are also going to be healing your brain because of the two-way communication that occurs between the two of them. And think about it, if you know, that whole concept of a gut feeling, it's real. Your gut is your second brain. And on the other hand, if you are eating in a rush or standing up and you're not focused on your meal, very often you get indigestion and that's because your brain is so distracted that your body can't focus on digestion and the reality is it's not just eating nutritious food that's going to benefit you it's not just the nutrition it's the absorption. What are you absorbing? And if your gut lining and your gut biome are not functioning or they're overrun by candida and all the bad bacteria, you're not going to be able to absorb the nutrients very well and that will affect not only your gut but also your brain. And that's the other reason why particularly I like both of the algae because they're very bioavailable. The nutrients are all there ready for absorption. So anyways, that's the two differences. Spirulina nourishing and very energizing both in the moment at the mitochondria level and Chlorella is very cleansing and detoxing. it's very much a recovery algae that you would take any time of day, but definitely at night, whereas Spirulina is more of a daytime algae.

Ashley James (28:37.119)

And that was probably the best breakdown I've ever heard you do. You were great the first episode, but it's like, you have now like three PhDs into algae.

Catharine Arnston (28:56.599)

Yeah, yeah, I know. Well, in fact, it's funny that you mentioned that because I realized, oh my God, I mean, 13 years I've been studying algae nutrition and how it interacts with the body for optimal health. And I thought, maybe I should do a PhD. So I've actually found a university, there's a lot of steps to go through, but I'll get credit for some of my previous degrees. I do have a master's and I would have to write a test, but I think I'm going to get a PhD from them. So please, please. I mean, yes, exactly. Yes. That's what I want. Dr. Arnston.

Ashley James (29:26.070)

I am so excited for you. I mean, yes, yes. What, come back on the show and tell us about that. I love it. I want to go back because you, you laid down so much amazing information. There's one thing you said that I think for people who didn't hear the previous episodes would have written it off as you being just over exaggerating how great it is. So these are like little chewable tablets, they're the size of aspirins. And when our son was about three years old, I introduced him to EnergyBits and he would chew them because they temporarily turn your tongue either blue green or green, depending on which one we're eating, chlorella or spirulina. And we would play a game and we called them green crackers because they're crunchy but they look like little pills, right? But they're chewable tablets essentially, and you don't have to chew them if you don't want, you can just swallow them like pills.

Catherine Arnston (30:27.620)

Yeah, and most people do swallow the spirulina because it's very earthy and very chewy. Yeah.

Ashley James (30:32.087)

I love, I love the flavor. So the first time you put it in your mouth, you're like, ooh, because you didn't know what to expect. But then if you keep eating it, your body starts to go, wow, I really like this. And then like five minutes into eating it, you're like, mm, this is actually really good. And you start tasting all these flavors. So my son who didn't like it at first, but then we played a game where we stuck our tongues out at each other and he got excited. It's like, oh, your tongue is green. I want my tongue to be green.

Well, we both called it green crackers and he'd ask for them. And now, like I said, he's eight and we'll sit there watching TV and we'll pass the bag around and we'll be chewing them and sticking our tongues out still. And it's great, it's a lot of fun. But you said that one of these chewable tablets, right? Which is very small, size of an aspirin, is the equivalent of a plate of vegetables. And that's something that we discussed in the last time you came on the show, Episode 487, because this is actually research from NASA. Can you just elaborate a bit because again, that point seems too good to be true.

Catharine Arnston (31:30.702)

I know, I know. And just on that note, when I started this as this company, I wasn't planning on starting a company. I just wanted to help my sister, younger sister, who had breast cancer and her oncologist told her to change her diet to an alkaline diet because it would help with her healing. And I was doing international business, nothing to do with nutrition, but I just jumped in and helped her and found out and led me to algae, which is the most alkaline food in the world. 

And it turns out, it's been endorsed by the United Nations for 49 years as the answer to world hunger because, drum roll, it has the highest protein in the world, has three times the amount of protein at stake, there's tens of thousands of studies that confirm all this. So whatever I'm telling you today, I want everyone to know, everything I say is documented in the National Institute of Health and in medical libraries all around the world, there's almost a hundred thousand of them.

But we also found this great quote from NASA who's been using algae for the astronauts again for almost 50 years. And the quote from NASA, and I can give you the paper with it if you want it, says one gram of algae has the same nutrition as a thousand grams of fruits or vegetables. One to a thousand, that's a big number. So I took that calculation, that's about

30 or 40 grocery carts of vegetables, just to give you a visual. And so I was trying to communicate this to people so they could understand the concentration. And I did the math, and we sell bags of algae tablets, and I did the math based on the weight of our bags, which have a thousand tablets, and found out one bag of our algae tablets has the same nutrition as 551 pounds of vegetables.

That's probably 50 or 60 or maybe 100 grocery carts of vegetables. And our bags are $120 and with your discount, it's about $100, but that's, I would have been $1,600 worth of vegetables. And then I took it a little further that, well, I still need to get it to a level that people could really understand. Cause so it worked out to about three quarters of a pound of vegetables per tablet, which is basically a big plate of vegetables. It's three quarters of red peppers, green peppers, tomatoes, greens. 

Ashley James (33:52.181)

It's about two cups. If you think it's just maybe depending on the vegetable. It's about two cups and that's a larger serving than most people will take a vegetable. So that's a big bowl of vegetables.

Catharine Arnston (34:03.378)

Right. Yes. So the CDC says 97% of Americans do not get their daily requirement of fiber and vegetables. And after I graduated from IIN, I taught plant-based nutrition at corporations and hospitals for free, by the way, trying to get people to eat more vegetables because I had seen all the science about the importance of the alkalinity, the phytonutrients, blah blah. And everyone came up to me and they said, you know, look at my mother's been trying to get me to eat more vegetables, but they're heavy to carry home from the grocery store. They go bad quickly. They take a long time to clean. They take a long time to cook. My husband won't eat them. My kids won't eat them. I throw out half of them. So I thought, okay, I have seen the science, I've read for years the science of the importance of vegetables. If I can't get people to eat vegetables, and what mother doesn't struggle with this, I thought I have to find a way to get the nutrition of vegetables into people in a way that is effortless. And I didn't know what I was going to find, but I just re-examined everything I had found for my sister, and that's what led me truly to algae, because it comes in these little tablets. This is how they use it in Asia. They have been growing it in Asia for 60 years. They take it every day. Some of them it's in powder, but the Japanese don't leave their house without chlorella every day. And by the way, I'd like to point out they have the best longevity, lowest cancer rates, lowest obesity rates, and great skin and hair. And I know it's not all the algae, but it certainly contributes to it. And they know about the science of algae, but the trouble is here in North America, nobody knows about the science of algae. They know it's a superfood. Actually some people don't even know that spirulina is an algae. And they put it in their smoothies because it's supposed to be good for them. But they're not really sure why. So I spent 13 years discovering the why. And whoever's listening, you aren't alone in the fact that you don't know anything of what I'm about to tell you today. But that's because no one's explained it to you until I did and it's not grown here. So you don't ride your bicycle to school and go buy an algae farm but they do in Asia. You don't drive to work and go buy an algae farm but they do in Asia. So it's just never been explained and it's not grown here although I do plan to grow it in Florida.

Ashley James (36:38.864)

I would love that. I can't wait for you to grow it here. You know, the other day I was talking to one of my clients and I was getting her list of supplements and things she was taking and she said, oh, I'm taking chlorella and spirulina, but I'm not buying EnergyBits anymore because they're too expensive. I said, okay, hold on, stop. What are you eating? Which brand? I want you to go get the bag. I need you to look on it, see if that proposition such and such is on that bag because the 99% of all the brands out there that sell chlorella and spirulina, the chlorella has lead in it. And the spirulina is like highly heated. It's like flash heated. So it's dead. You're missing out. I like, let's say someone wanted to save $40. So they bought a $60 bag. And she said, oh, wait, the bag that she bought, cause she was saving, $20, $30. She goes, and it tastes horrible. It tastes and smells fishy. I'm like, well, okay.

Energybits is the only company I have found that is pure, that is highly nutritious because at every step of the way from growing it to processing it to shipping it here, every step of the way there's testing and there's things in place to make sure that it is the optimal quality and it preserves the optimal quality of the nutrition. And you can smell it and taste it because the Energybits does not taste like of rotten fish, and so many other companies do. And then I said, you don't ever, ever wanna eat chlorella from any company unless you confirm, because there's only a handful, and EnergyBits being one of them that does not have lead added to it because of the process of cracking the chlorella. And those are the cheaper brands. So if you find it cheaper, it's because they did, they cut corners, which hurt you, or there's no nutrition in it.

Now, with the supplement industry, and some people think this is a supplement, it's a crop, like you said, with food and supplements, it's buyer beware. And it's not a regulated industry like drugs are a regulated industry. We don't really want supplements to be regulated because then a lot of really good companies would go out of business and Big Pharma would be the ones running the show. We don't want that. But at the same time, it is buyer beware.

And these companies that make it cheaper, it's cheaper for a reason because they can put fillers in, because they can do processes that either harm the algae or harm you. And so really you just wasted, you think you save money by buying a $60 bag instead of a $100 bag, you actually just wasted $60 and you possibly harmed yourself in the process. So it is worth spending and like you said, get the discount, use the coupon code LTH. And that bag will last you for a month and that is giving you one tablet as a whole bowl of vegetables worth of the nutrition. And you can make it last longer than a month, like you said, eat 10 a day. I like 30 a day because I'm more focused on using it to detoxify. But for people who are just wanting to stay on top of nutrition, between five and 10 tablets a day, they could just do that. They could hand their kids. Sometimes I just hand my son three to five of the tablets, here, just chew this or swallow. And I know that he just got bowls and bowls of nutrition like comparative to fruits and vegetables. I'm still gonna feed him fruits and vegetables, but there are days I don't get fruits and vegetables into this kid. I'm just gonna hand him three to five chlorella and spirulina and feel good about it.

Catharine Arnston (40:18.589)

Yeah, right, right, and even for adults who don't have children, when you're traveling, you're stuck in traffic in between meetings, you don't have time to eat, you go to any of those convenience stores, it's just carbs, sugar, and carbs, carbs. And so this way I call spirulina chlorella, your not only your nutritional insurance, but your health insurance. And, and let's just, I just want to circle back to that comment about the young lady who didn't want to who'd stop buying ours because of the higher price. So it's like buying a car. If you don't look under the hood, maybe there's a car that's $1,000 cheaper than the other one. And you think, oh wow, I'm getting such a deal. But if you don't lift the hood, maybe there's no engine in there, right? It's just from the outside, because what do you know? They look the same, but you gotta lift the hood to find out the deeper story.

Same with algae. So here's the lift the hood thing, and we'll get into this hopefully in a few minutes.  I'm gonna do a deep dive on two nutrients that are found in spirulina that are damaged, that are killed by high heat. And all the other algae companies use high heat to dry their algae because they are cheaper and because they're less expensive algae, so they need to sell more to make money. So to get to market quickly, they use high heat.

But they kill these two important nutrients. And what do these two important nutrients do? Well, one of them is superoxidismutase, which protects you from heart disease. And the other one is the pigment that I already mentioned, the blue one called phycocyanin, that kills cancer cells. Cancer and heart disease represent 75% of all deaths. And by the way, these two nutrients also prevent brain disorders, anxiety, Alzheimer's, any kind of dementia.

So, this lady is saving $20 and not getting the benefits of protecting herself from heart disease, cancer or dementia. I would say everyone here, everyone in the world deserves to be protected from heart disease, cancer and dementia. And when you take 10 tablets a day of spirulina, same thing for chlorella, 10 tablets a day, you know what that works out to? A dollar a day. She is depriving herself of protection from cancer, heart disease, and dementia because of a dollar a day. 

Ashley James (42:52.990)

Well, I don't blame her. She didn't know this information and a lot of listeners, but it's like, this is where we have to go, we're investing in our health. Yeah, educate, we're investing in our health and it is worth spending a bit more for the highest quality product on the market. And exactly.

Catharine Arnston (43:10.045)

Yes. But someone has to tell you why you want the higher priced algae. It's just everything we do is just more expensive. I've been on 275 podcasts. I've been on 30 summits. I write all the scientific papers. I do all the research. I do all of the writing. Every single weekend, I'm working on more material to help people understand the science because whether you're buying an expensive handbag or you're buying algae, you want to know what is it that makes it better. And nobody else is telling you. Nobody else is explaining how your body works and why the needs the cellular level are perfectly matched by the nutrients found in raw spirulina or chlorella. Again, it can't be heated or you lose all those benefits. This is the key that unlocks the door to great health. That is, in a nutshell, is what good spirulina and good chlorella, i.e. spirulina chlorella, not heated, not dried with heat. They are the key that unlocks perfect health. That's what I've decided.

But you need to know what, how does that work? Like what exactly is it doing? So I'd like to unpack that for you today.

Ashley James (44:31.733)

Yeah, let's do it. I have had several guests come on and do whole interviews on superoxide dismutase and its benefits and how we need more of it and it is crucial for life and crucial to avoid disease, like an amazing nutrient for the body. And the fact that we get it through eating EnergyBits or go to getting your stuff, because we know that your stuff isn't heated. So it's not destroyed because it's raw algae. And then of course the Phycocyanin. 

Catharine Arnston (45:13.384)

P-H-Y-C-O-C-Y-A-N-I-N. So, well, let me talk about both of those because we'll do them separately so we can do this two ways. We'll talk about those two nutrients and I'll address the three major chronic diseases, Alzheimer's, heart disease, and cancer, and address how these two nutrients that aren't found anywhere else in the world can protect you and also get you back to health and they're essential for longevity. And then we'll flip.

Ashley James (45:52.519)

Before you do that, and I want you to do that, can you tell us, like, is this something that's found in trace amounts? Is this something that is in high concentration? When you address the individual ones, can you give us an idea of how much of the superoxide dismutase, for example, is found in your algae?

Catharine Arnston (46:14.723)

It has the highest concentration in the entire universe. I don't have the slide in front of me, but there is a little bit of superoxide dismutase in cabbage or broccoli. I don't have the numbers right in front of me, but if spirulina was 100, cabbage or broccoli would be 0.00000000001 percent. There is nothing, and we do lab tests that give us the concentration of super oxygen dismutase. I know I'm stumbling as well. It's also called SOD. It's a little easier to say that way. So there is nothing in the world with more of it. And chlorella has quite a bit of it as well, but half of what spirulina has. So spirulina is the number one algae for the mitochondria. And chlorella is the number one algae for your immune system. So I can dig into that a little bit deeper. So, well, since we're on superoxide dismutase, or SOD, let's address it first of all. So as I mentioned, it's virtually non-existent from any other food in the world. It's certainly not in any amounts that would have any kind of medicinal benefits. I mean, 0.000001 percent is nothing that's going to move my needle. And even if you did find some supplements with it, they get damaged, it gets damaged in the stomach through the digestion. And here's the other benefit of spirulina. It does not have a cellulose wall. So it gets absorbed almost instantly. So it's 99% bioavailable. So all of the nutrients, including the superoxide dismutase get absorbed and directed to the mitochondria so it can be put to use. If you chew it, as I know Ashley, you do, you get it within seconds because it goes sublingually through the mouth membranes. And if you swallow it, oh, it's maybe 10 or 15 minutes before it's completely absorbed into your cells. So there's nothing that's faster than spirulina for that reason. 

So, what is superoxide dismutase? One other thing I want to tell you about superoxide dismutase, the good news is your body makes it from the moment you are born, but it stops making it after the age of 30. And you're going to find this the same thing happens. After the age of 30, your body stops making melatonin, it stops making glutathione, because up until recently, we died at age 30. We have been on the earth, mankind, for 2 million years.

And up until about 125 years ago, maybe 50 years ago, we died at 30. So biologically and evolutionarily, if that's a word, our bodies think we're dying at 30. So it shuts down some of these protective measures like superoxide dismutase, which, drum roll, you're going to find out right now, is one of the very few antioxidants that can get into the inner membrane of the mitochondria, it's like an NICE unit in there, to stop free radical damage. Now, because when your mitochondria are damaged by these free radicals, they die, they mutate, and that's when your health starts to go astray. This is when chronic disease hits. This is when brain fog hits. This is when everything just slides in a downward spiral. And it's no surprise to me that most of the diagnoses of heart disease, cancer, occur after the age of 40, because that's when your body has pretty much shut down its ability to create superoxide dismutase, which is one of the few antioxidants, like I said, that can get into that inner membrane and stop free radical damage. You can eat a room full of blueberries and not a drop of antioxidants will get into that inner membrane. Your mitochondria are your only cell in your body that have two membranes. All of your other cells have what's called a lipid membrane, which basically is a fancy word for saying fats. And your mitochondria have that one too. But they have a second membrane, and I'll tell you where that second membrane came from later on, that is impenetrable by drugs. Drugs can't get in there. Almost no antioxidants can get in there. But virtually all the nutrients found in algae like superoxide dismutase, and we'll talk about some of the other ones in a minute, like chlorophyll and glutathione can get into that inner membrane. 

So what's so important about that? Well, we talked about earlier about ATP being cellular energy and you need ATP to do anything. Thinking, sleeping, walking, talking, digesting, immune health, absolutely everything. But the downside of production of ATP, the byproduct of ATP, guess what?

It's free radicals. Nobody tells you about that. And the most damaging one is called superoxide. This superoxide is a byproduct. It's a free radical produced, I think it's only in the mitochondria, as a byproduct of this ATP. And I read that superoxide is the most damaging free radical. So I was curious, well, what makes it so damaging?

So I dug around in all the different papers and I found out why. So those of you who aren't familiar with a free radical, it's a molecule that has an unpaired electron. The mother nature likes balance. And so if there's an unpaired electron circulating around the atom, it will go and snatch an electron from the neighboring molecule and so to create harmony. But then that leaves a molecule with one unpaired electron so that it steals one from the next molecule and on and on it goes so it leaves this trail of damaged tissue, damaged cells, wherever it goes. And when you have damaged cells then they don't function properly. So superoxide is so the reason why it's so damaging is it has three unpaired electrons. So it is three times as damaging as any other free radical found. And I believe that it's only generated in the mitochondria. So this thing called superoxide dismutase, the word dismutase means it reduces something. It demutes, it's like a dimmer on a light. So think about it's superoxide dismutase. It dims this superoxide. Basically, what it does is it turns that free radical into harmless water.

Ta-da! Mitochondria is hydrated. It's like having the fireman in there with a fire hose. Just puts out the fire caused by all these free radicals that are a byproduct of ATP. Because the place where the ATP is produced, which is also the place where the free radicals are, are exactly where the mitochondria's DNA are located. They are front row and center.

And if you've ever sat near a bonfire or got too close to a fireplace and sparks would fly and you might get burned, that's what's happening to your mitochondria DNA every single nanosecond. They are exactly where the ATP is produced, which is exactly where the free radicals are produced. And so they are always being burned. That's why you need the superoxide dismutase, which is like having a fireman with a hose to put it out and your body makes it for you but only until the age of 30. Right? And then after the age of 30 it makes less and less so by the time you're 40 you do not have any more firemen in there putting out the fire. And this is why people get chronic disease because their mitochondria are no longer being protected by these free radicals as they were until they were 30 or 40 and there's no food source for it. Nothing. Right? Crazy. So now spirulina comes along, but here's the trick, superoxide dismutase is an enzyme. It's an antioxidant but it's also an enzyme. And if you know anything about nutrition you know that heat kills enzymes. That's why a lot of people eat raw food because they want all the all the enzymes and all the other algae companies use high heat to dry their algae because they're lower priced to get to the market quickly. We don't use high heat. So all of our enzymes, including superoxide dismutase, are alive and well. So they can go in there into your mitochondria and put out that fire caused by the free radicals, which are a byproduct of the ATP. Pretty sweet, right?

Ashley James (55:42.560)

Oh my gosh, totally blows my mind. And I loved how you explained free radicals. I went to a naturopath with my mom when I was a kid and he would write these really cool news articles. And of course there was no email back in the eighties, right? So he would physically print it out and mail it to us, and we would read and it was like almost digesting a bunch of different journals, right? He would take all this information, but from the naturopath standpoint. And you know who it was? My naturopath when I was six years old was Dr. D'Adamo, the man who invented the eat right for your blood type diet. He was amazing. And he totally turned my life around. That's part of my health story that I was sick as a kid. And then when I was six, I went to him and he looked in my eyes, took my blood, looked at my tongue, looked at my ears, you know, did the whole naturopathic rundown. And he told us to stop eating milk, yeast, wheat and sugar. And overnight our kitchen transformed and we ate really clean and we took his supplements and I did not get sick once from the age of six to the age of thirteen when I rebelled and started eating all the junk food because I was a teenager. And I quickly learned that you can turn health on and off and you can turn diseases on and off and here I am.

But what was really interesting is I have a distinct memory and I was probably about seven, maybe eight. I was in my mom's bed and we were reading through the articles that he wrote, the newsletter, and I loved it. When you look at kids, you can tell what they're gonna be interested in their whole life. And I was fascinated by his articles. Can you imagine a seven or eight year old being like, I want to read more about antioxidants, right?

Catharine Arnston (57:37.413)

Wow. Everybody else is reading Nancy Drew or comic books and there you are reading naturopathic newsletters. I love that.

Ashley James (57:42.289)

I know, I know. And I was super fascinated but he described free radicals as a bullet on the microscopic level. A bullet bouncing through your body, piercing different cells and breaking open cells basically, but on an electron level. And it was like bullets ricocheting inside you. And  then he talked about how the foods that we can eat can either reduce that damage or can increase anytime you eat fried food, you are essentially swallowing loaded guns, shooting bullets throughout your body, like breaking apart cell walls because the free radical damage from fried foods, right? Same with overcooked red meat has the same effect. There's a bunch of foods out there that we eat as Americans, as Canadians, right, as many, many countries eat these foods that are so high in what causes free radical damage and then thus causes inflammation, right? So, we've got to stop doing that and then start doing the opposite of that, which is eating foods rich in antioxidants and knowing that specifically the antioxidant that targets the mitochondria… 

Catharine Arnston (59:05.048)

There's very few that can get in there to do that. 

Ashley James (59:06.924)

Yes. And the fact that there's very few companies out there that produce a chlorella, sorry, a spirulina that is not heated.

Catharine Arnston (59:16.742)

Right. So you're shooting blanks if you want to use the bullet analogy again. If you buy algae that is less expensive, I can almost promise you they dried it with high heat which would kill the superoxide dismutase. So it may have been there before they dried it, but it's empty now. And you're shooting blanks. And I love that analogy about the bullet bouncing around and piercing different cells because that is what happens. Another visual that just came to me while you were talking is bumper cars. When I was a kid, we used to go to the circus and there'd be these bumper cars and you just go around and you smack into everybody else and hopefully didn't damage anybody permanently. There were lots of studies done about the fact that antioxidants like vitamin E and vitamin C, they have never had an impact on longevity. And it's because I have realized those are two antioxidants that cannot get into the mitochondria inner membrane. Everything, if you come away from this podcast today, understanding nothing else except the fact that everything that happens to your health is determined by your mitochondria. And the problem is this mitochondria, like I said, they're like the ICE unit. They're in lockdown. Virtually nothing can get in there except a handful of antioxidants. Not even drugs can get in there. So the fact that superoxide dismutase is one of them that can. There's also glutathione, which also algae has the highest concentration of, chlorella, in fact, and chlorophyll. And we could talk about those as well. But, in this case, superoxide dismutase is the number one antioxidant. It's considered even more powerful than glutathione. And there are 25,000 medical studies, proving the benefits of superoxide dismutase to prevent heart disease, Alzheimer's, inflammation, any kind of respiratory illnesses, proven. So, but the problem has been your body stops making it after the age of 30 and there is no other source of it from food. And now you know you can get it from RLG or from frozen spirulina because those are the two that have not been exposed to high heat. So the SOD is active and will protect you for a dollar a day.

Ashley James (01:01:56.925)

Now what about those SOD supplements?

Catharine Arnston (01:01:59.537)

Well, they did some studies and again, they were finding that they were getting damaged during digestion and a very limited amount of those tablets of the SOD was making its way into the mitochondria. Here's the thing, those supplements probably cost 60 or 70 dollars and you probably have to take four or five a day and that's all you're getting. Think of a supplement and I've told this to people before, think of the supplement, it doesn't matter which one it is. It could be fish oil, it could be SOD, as just like a grade three soloist. And when you take algae, you've got the Boston Symphony Orchestra because it has 40 vitamins and minerals, the highest chlorophyll in the world, highest protein in the world, in this case, highest superoxide dismutase in the world. You're cheating yourself when you take these isolated supplements for isolated purposes. 

You mentioned earlier, our medical profession has become so disparate. You've got one person for brain health, one person for liver health. And so you're running around going to all these specialists and nobody talks to one another. Supplements are the same way. They are isolated. They don't talk to one another. They actually don't exist like that in nature. So you pee 90% out of what you're taking. And some people take chlorophyll water, for example. I applaud the use of chlorophyll.

Well, chlorella has 25 times more chlorophyll than liquid chlorophyll, and at the same time, you're also getting 60% protein, 40 vitamins and minerals. Chlorophyll water is just chlorophyll. So you always look for the greatest efficiency, and you usually get that from nature. Mother Nature knows best.

Mother Nature has laid out a bounty of ways for us to look after ourselves and most of them are free: sleep, walking outside, simple pleasures, lik,e community, getting fresh air, any movement, sunlight, you have to pay a little bit for your algae, but it's the most concentrated nutrition in the universe

And it was a gift to us from Mother Nature, the first life on Earth, I might add, four billion years ago. So I always encourage people to slow down and take a look, lift the hood, because when you find the truth, it resonates with you. You were saying earlier your body craves the spirulina and the chlorella. So does mine. I've been taking this stuff for 13 years. Every single time I have my first handful in the morning.

It's like an exhale. It's just like, oh, thank God. Honestly, I don't know, I do eat real food, but I don't know how I would survive without these things. It's so instinctual and my body just absolutely loves it and everyone's will too, because it's so high quality, it's so concentrated. It's Mother Nature's invention, but we do the best at preserving the nutrition that she's provided to us by growing it carefully in triple filtered spring mountain water, not using high heat, and then not including any other crappy stuff like binders or whatever. So it's as pure a food as you're ever going to get. The only other thing I could say that would be better is mother's breast milk, but you can't have that after about the age of two. So spirulina and chlorella are your next best shot. So, but pretty amazing about that superoxide dismutase, right?

Sneaking in the back door of the mitochondria to help it survive. And it's like if you had a friend who was in the hospital and they were feeding them crappy food, which they of course still do at hospitals, and then you have some friend who brings you quietly or in a hidden bag, a bag of salad and maybe some grass-fed beef or something. 

Ashley James (01:06:10.632)

The homemade chicken soup.

Catharine Arnston (01:06:14.774)

So glutathione and superoxide dismutase, they get in there to deliver what your mitochondria aren't getting from anything else. They're like your best friend.

Ashley James (01:06:25.980)

Well, I just love that, that it's putting out the fire and at the same time, transforming it into water. So it's not only stopping the damage to your cells and the DNA in your ear, mitochondria in your cells, and restoring balance, like removing the chaos, but then it hydrates at the same time. It's like here cell have more water and less chaos. That is so, so cool. 

Catharine Arnston (01:06:51.232)

And also, and because water has oxygen in it, and there's a German scientist who won a Nobel Prize back in the 30s, his name is Otto Warburg, and this will be my next segue into cancer. He discovered that cancer can only exist in an acidic environment. And there's a scale of zero to 14 that measures acidity to alkalinity, alkalinity being at the high level. And your cells need to be 7.1, slightly alkaline, your blood needs to be a little more alkaline, but when it's slightly alkaline that's indicative of a lot of oxygen that's in the cell and that the cell is functioning in a healthy way. And algae is the most alkaline food in the world and this particular nutrient as you mentioned superoxide dismutase normally reduces the fire from the free radical production, it encourages the production of water, which brings more oxygen into the cell because that's what oxygen water is made of. Pretty cool.

Ashley James (01:07:54.424)

It is very cool. So in your research, you saw that superoxide dismutase helps the cell become more alkaline, like achieve that alkalinity.

Catharine Arnston (01:08:04.296)

Well, it's actually other nutrients that do that, like the chlorophyll. Chlorophyll is probably the most alkaline lining nutrient, and it's another pigment found in both spirulina and chlorella. Chlorella has a higher amount. But this engagement of the superoxide dismutase by stopping the free radical damage of the superoxide dismutase and turning it into water contributes oxygen to the cell. But you get other contributions from other elements in the algae, whether it's from the magnesium or from the chlorophyll in particular is a very alkalining nutrient.

Ashley James (01:08:45.765)

I think there's a lot of misunderstanding around alkalinity and making sure the body's alkaline because there's certain areas of the body, we want at certain times to be high acid. For example, in the last part of digestion with the stomachs about to empty out Into the small intestines it it'll it brings it back to neutral because the small intestines would not be happy with you know hydrochloric acid but there's certain tissues have a range of like, from here to here is the healthiest range. And we have buffer systems in the body to maintain our acid and alkaline balance. And the thing is, is that the body uses our own mineral stores in our bones. So it'll have us release minerals from our bones to buffer the acid in our tissue. So if you're the kind of person who goes and drinks Coke or Diet Coke or Diet Pepsi or whatever, goes to McDonald's, you know, drinks some wine at night, eats a high acid, like the opposite of an alkaline diet, right? Alkaline diet, think of like the raw vegan frolicking through the fields, just picking wild berries and eating raw food in the sunlight, that's an alkaline diet, juicing, anything with a lot of enzymes, anything from plants. You've got a very alkaline diet. And then lots of meat, dairy, sugar, flour, fried food, and also the beverages, high in sugar and Coca-Cola.

One of my backgrounds is massage therapy. This is in Canada where I worked in hospitals and in sports medicine rehab. This is like over 20 years ago, but it's in Canada. Massage therapy is, we work alongside physical therapists. It's a two year college program, not like a 500 hour program that they do here in the States. So it's much more advanced and we would have oil on our sheets. So you can imagine massage therapists end up getting their sheets, have a lot of oil on them. And you know how we wash our sheets to get the oil stains out. Cause you know, any kind of detergent will not get oil out of massage sheets. And then the sheets start smelling rancid from the oil, from the massage oil. 

Do you know how we do it? We take a two liter bottle of Coke and we take a bucket and we put all our sheets in the bucket and we pour the two liter bottle of Coke and we let it sit overnight. And then we put it in the washing machine the next day, 100% removes oil. And if you have clothing with oil stains, I have a friend, a good friend of mine, her husband works as a mechanic for helicopters and there was a leak, like some crazy fluids from the helicopter, got on him, and it was like jet fuel and all this other fluid. And he came home soaking and smelling like just awful chemicals that you would not want anywhere near you. And the only way she was able to get it out, because she tried detergents and everything and it stunk up the whole house. And then she did what I told her, use a two liter bottle of Coke, soak it overnight and then put it in the wash. And it 100% cleaned all these oils, like petroleum based chemicals. So people are drinking this stuff. This stuff is a degreaser agent. This stuff is like this crazy, but people drink it. And that was my little side note to say, people on a regular basis, the standard American diet, which is copied throughout the world now, is highly acidic and it's unnaturally highly acidic. So the body in order to cope with it, because the body isn't running around if we were too acidic, you would just drop into a coma, right? But the body has to regulate and so it has buffer systems.

If you have to constantly use your buffer systems, you're putting massive stress on the body. So yeah, go drink your two liters of Coke and eat your pizza this weekend, but just know that your body is now leaching minerals from your bones in order to compensate. What is the saying? You rob Peter to pay Paul. Eventually, it's going to catch up to you. So yes, we have buffer systems. And that if you constantly eat an acid-forming diet, you are leaching your body of nutrients in order to keep up with that lifestyle. Whereas if you eat a diet high in enzymes and nutrients and phyto plant chemicals, high in plants, and you look for these like rich in superoxide dismutase, Chlorella spigulina, you are putting out the fire. And now you are helping the body. Now you don't have to rely on the buffer system so heavily to stay in a perfectly balanced state for those cells, those cells being 7.1 perfectly balanced. So there's my little rant about pH, because a lot of people go, what are you talking about?

Catharine Arnston (01:13.41.491)

Well, it's, there's a misunderstanding. There are organs and there are cells. And different organs like your stomach do need to be acidic. But universally, through your entire body, your body is made of cells. I came up with another analogy. Think of your body like a building. You know, when a brand new office tower is built, it's glorious and everything works. When you're a baby and you're born, everything works. 

And then in the building are offices. And so think of those offices, the equivalent would be your organs. They're gathered, they're groups, so they have maybe a city group in one place, maybe TJ Maxx is in another, they've assembled offices to have big corporations. And so in your body, you have groups of clusters of things that are organs that work together to function.

And then in the office, the things that keep, or in the building, the things that keep the office working and the people working are lights. And so in your body, those lights are the equivalent of your cells and your mitochondria. And as the building gets older and if they don't replace the lights, the people start closing their offices and leaving. And eventually the building, it's decrepit, and maybe there aren't any people there anymore.

in your body if you don't keep your cells functioning properly and your mitochondria protected, they're basically your lights. They go out and eventually just like the building that becomes decrepit, you do too. So think of your cells and your mitochondria as the lights that keep the equivalent of your building, your body, working. And part of that is, when you mention about the coke getting rid of all that grease and all the oils from the massage. Well, remember I mentioned at the very beginning that all of your cells have a cell membrane that's made of lipids. That's another word for fats. And so when you're eating these things like coke, just like the coke stripped out the oils in your sheets, it must strip out. Similarly, the oils and the healthy oils in your cell walls.

And when your cell walls are stripped of the healthy fats, they become dry and brittle. We're entering the fall here in New England. Think of a leaf that when it does not have the sunlight and it doesn't have all the nutrients and the chlorophyll, it becomes brittle and dry. That's what's happening to your cells. If you do not have the proper fats and if you eat too much acidic food, it causes your cell walls to become brittle and dysfunctional. And that causes your mitochondria to suffer because they're not getting the nutrients either and all that sort of stuff. So you can see how it's all connected, right?

Ashley James (01:16:45.595)

Absolutely. I love it. Anything we can do to keep us like just optimally healthy. I want to be that 106 year old that's still hiking, it's possible we can do it. I think you will.

Catherine Arnston (01:17:00.519)

I probably will be. But the other thing that you have to remember, because we live in North America, people want things that are effortless and simple. And if you can swallow water, although you and I chew these tablets, you can get the nutrition that you need to prevent these chronic illnesses or restore your health. It's that easy. We're not talking about going out to a cryotherapy center, although you could do that. We're not talking about going out for an IV drip But you could do that too. We're not talking about complicated anything. You're in your home. You just open your bag or your canister or your whatever you put some tablets in your mouth and you swallow them down. Seconds we're talking about seconds. This is like in fact, we're going to an IV drip show in a couple of weeks because People are getting glutathione drips. Well, you know what? Glutathione is an algae. People are getting collagen drips. Guess what? The highest collagen is an algae. They should probably have a superoxidized dismutase, but nonetheless, the highest concentration is an algae. So it gives you everything that you need for nourishment, cellular protection, and it's effortless. You don't have to cook it, clean it, mix it, nothing. Just open your mouth and take it. That's all you have to do. And at a dollar a day, it's the best prevention that you're ever going to get and those of you who currently have a condition, it will help speed your recovery faster than just about anything. But anyway, so that's  superoxidized dismutase, how protective it is of the mitochondria, and as long as you are protecting your mitochondria, everything works better. It just does. And I can walk you through some of the science behind that. 

And for brain health, the highest concentration of mitochondria are in your brain, as I mentioned earlier. And we did our own clinical trial recently. We were working with a nonprofit group called the Gray Team. They're based in Florida. And their entire purpose is to stop the suicide rate of military veterans, which is at a heartbreaking 35 to 50 percent. 35 to 50% of military veterans are committing suicide. Just let that sink in. I mean, that's just tragic, beyond tragic.

Ashley James (01:19:25.248)

That's beyond tragic. That is incomprehensible how time and time again, and I'm not gonna just say this to the United States because I mean, I love living here. I'm from Canada. My home is the States now, but it's not just America, unfortunately, because I have seen Britain, I've seen Canada, I've seen multiple countries, Australia, Asia, I've seen them just throw away their veterans like trash. And that is unacceptable. Like just for example, for this country to throw away their veterans like trash and then take billions of taxpayer dollars and give it to other countries. Now I believe that we should all help each other, right? I believe in aid, I believe we should all help each other. But why aren't we helping our veterans? Why do we just throw them away like trash? That gets me so angry. And it's not, again, not just America, it is other countries too. These people, they've been through enough, you know what I mean? And they just deserve so much better. And suicide is such a big problem, especially since 2020.

Catharine Arnston (01:20:26.914)

Oh, well, and we know it's also on the rise just in the general population and COVID didn't help. I mean, it really pushed it over the edge. So there's a lot of people suffering, anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder. And you and I talked before we started recording, there's a great book that came out. I would encourage everybody to read it. You can get it on Amazon. It's called Brain Energy. And it's by Dr. Christopher Palmer, P-A-L-M-E-R.

He is a physician, a psychiatrist, at the Harvard Medical School. So he's got all the great education behind him, and he's also been a psychiatrist for 25 or 30 years. Anyways, his entire book documents how all brain disorders, anxiety, depression, post-traumatic stress, suicidal thoughts, Alzheimer's, any dementia, all of it is because of damaged mitochondria.

Damaged mitochondria are the cause of all brain issues. And what did I just talk about? How superoxide dismutase protects and heals the mitochondria. You can connect the dots and see that spirulina is the highest superoxide dismutase as long as it's not from a heated spirulina source. So all the science points to this. So I thought, you know what? We want to help other organizations.

And we had been meeting with them. So they said, let's do a small clinical trial with our particular spirulina. So we did. And all we'd had a small group of their military veterans who had been discharged for 15 or 20 years because they'd had these mental issues that had never gone away. And all we did was give them a pouch of our spirulina tablets. So 30 tablets a day. They did nothing else. We did a brain scan before the clinical trial. And we also hooked them up

to some devices that measure their sleep and their CRV and stuff, HRV, heart rate monitor. 

Anyways, and then we did a brain scan after 30 days. Only thing we did was give them 30 tablets a day. We asked them not to change anything else, no extra exercise, no change in diet, nothing. And within 30 days, and it probably would have happened within even probably seven, that inflammation we could see from the EEG, the brain showed no activity, it was all inflammation, virtually gone, completely gone. One person had multiple sclerosis, his tremors went away. 30 days, not from a drug, but from food. 

Spirulina are raw tablets, 30 tablets a day. Meanwhile, they're still getting 64% protein, 40 vitamins and minerals, and part of the reason it worked was because of the superoxide dismutase. Also, we're going to talk about in a minute, the phycocyanin that's found in spirulina. It's also loaded with essential fatty acids. Your brain is mostly fat. One of the things I didn't mention is one of the things that superoxide dismutase also does is it protects your telomeres. Your telomeres are these things that protect your DNA. And as your cells replicate, the telomeres shorten until they get so short that the DNA gets exposed. 

And then, when the DNA is exposed, it interacts with toxins and it becomes damaged. And then when it replicates, it damages as damaged DNA. And this leads to other chronic illnesses. But when you take the superoxide dismutase, it protects the telomeres so they aren't shortening. So you start to get more functionality and this also contributed to the brain health. So, and as I said, it probably could have happened within a week or even two weeks but we did do the EEG's at the beginning and at the end and that was pretty powerful when you think of how something as simple as this whole food unheated just spirulina could do so much more than any drugs could. Amazing, right?

Ashley James (01:24:36.525)

I am beyond thrilled. So this 30-day study, did you do any questionnaire just to get an idea of their mood before and after, or did they report anything like that?

Catharine Arnston (01:24:53.797)

I think we have, there's so much data and I haven't looked at everything because I haven't been able to, we're gonna write a paper about it so we could submit it. I have to submit, I've fallen behind on that because there's a professor who also works with NASA, Dr. Dominique D'Agostino, who I'm a good friend with, he was going to help us write the paper and submit it to the PubMed and all that sort of stuff. So I have to get back on that. It's just one more thing I haven't had chance to follow up. 

Ashley James (01:25:22.561)

So it's totally fine. It's totally fine. It hasn't been published yet. These are preliminary findings, but in the preliminary findings, the most exciting thing that you've noticed is that there was definite changes in the brain scans. And what other definite cool things did you notice while just looking preliminarily through the findings?

Catharine Arnston (01:25:39.833)

Yeah, well, there's a marker called HRV, which stands for heart rate variability. And you want a high heart rate variability because it shows that under stress, your body can respond quickly. When you have a low heart rate variability, it cannot. So I just remembered this looking at one data point, this person's heart rate variability, I think went from 40 something to 80 something. It was a 50% increase which is unheard of. People brag about how their heart rate variability increased by 2 or 3%. This was like literally a 50%. They also monitored their sleep. They used something called a wavi, which is sort of like those rings, aura rings. So there's tons of data, but with science and studies, you gotta go comb through the data and you look for trends and then you have to write up the findings. It's just time consuming. And I'm running the company, I'm traveling all over the place and I'm busy with my stuff.

Ashley James (01:26:43.789)

It is totally fine. I'm so happy that you dropped some of this information, but you know what? It's like, don't wait until you're done. If you've got something, share it, right? And then you can come back, and once the paper's been written and all the scientists have poured through the data, and you can come back and share more. There's no harm in that. Heart rate variability is super interesting, and life insurance companies are now playing with the idea of using it in order to determine whether someone should be insured or not, because they have seen that it is possibly a way to determine lifespan. Because low heart rate variability means you're in a state of stress and your body can't bounce into stress and then out of stress mode, that if you have low heart rate variability, you are kind of always in stress mode and it wears on you faster and you die sooner.

Whereas, a high heart rate variability means that when you inhale and when you exhale, your heart rate changes and your heart gets to rest a bit. And so your heartbeats won't be consistent. They'll be higher and then lower and then higher. And that's the variable that's measured between the two. Liistening to my son's heartbeat freaks me out because I'm like, did his heart stop? Because in between, there's such a noticeable difference in his heart rate from his inhales to his exhales. Now he's been seen by doctors. He's been seen by naturopaths. He's totally fine. His heart's healthy. But from the untrained ear, who's used to hearing a consistent heartbeat, when he inhales and when he exhales, his heart rate changes.

And that's heart rate variability. So he has actually very healthy because there is a very clear measurable difference between his inhale and exhale heartbeat. And if you listen to your own heartbeat and you notice there's no difference between your inhales and exhales, then you've got low heart rate variability. And there's some work we gotta do to bring your stress response down. So it's really cool. That's something that largely people have been thinking heart rate variability was more associated with mental, emotional health and getting you out of stress response mentally. Of course, you know, the body can stress the stress, right? So eating McDonald's is as stressful as having an argument with your husband or drinking a glass of wine is a stressor or running up a hill really fast is a stressor. Some stressors are good for you in the long run, right? But it's a stressor nonetheless. And the more cumulative stress we have, wears us down if we don't know how to turn off the stress response, right? So with heart rate variability being so changed by one factor, which is like you said, it takes what 10 seconds – open your bag, throw the chewable tablets in your mouth, either chew them or swallow with water, close the bag, done, go about your day. And for some people, the heart rate variability changed by 50%. That is just my mind is blown. My mind is, I'm so excited for that. And I can't wait for your study to be released.

Catharine Arnston (01:30:02.761)

Well, and to have this book by Dr. Palmer, Brain Energy, the health of the brain is determined by the health of your mitochondria. And we have something that basically blows everything out of the water, all drugs, nothing comes close to the impact that these nutrients, and I'm gonna talk about another one in a minute, in spirulina and also to chlorella for protecting the mitochondria. But if you had to choose one algae, for protecting your mitochondria, it would definitely be spirulina. And if you were looking at building your immune system, it's definitely chlorella. And that's another conversation, the science is there and there's literally no question, but we've changing the perception of health in general and predictability of longevity is like moving the Titanic because we have certain ideas in our head, but the new science keeps coming out. And so, I stay in my lane about algae and I keep connecting the nutrients found in algae with the discoveries found in the longevity research and I'm going, Wow! Superoxide dismutase stops heart disease. Hah! Spirulina, our spirulina has the highest superoxide dismutase. That's amazing! Or as we're going to find out next, research finds that phycocyanin, which is the blue pigment in spirulina, kills cancer cells. And I go, Gosh! That's pretty interesting because our spirulina has the highest phycocyanin in the universe. So the science is there about these nutrients, but the scientists don't know those nutrients exist in algae or at least in our algae. So I'm sitting here, I feel like, the kid with the finger in the dike holding the water, holding a dam from exploding and I'm so eager to get this information to the world because this is why I did this. I mean I just wanted to help my sister heal from cancer and I did, and I thought if I can help one more person I'm going to just keep going and now we're in thousands of people, but it's so important to get this information out because it's scientifically proven and there's no question, but you have to know what to look for. People say, you don't notice a red car until you have one. You're not going to notice the benefits of superoxide dismutase, or next we'll talk about phycocyanin, until now that you've learned about it. Now you are informed. Being educated about these things, because nobody else is telling you, is critical. And so that's my goal, and I love educating people, because, I know Mother Nature has provided for us and we just need to get her bounty out to the world in a way that is understandable. The science is complicated but what it does in your body is so remarkable. So is Mother Nature. I mean she is so smart, the universe, God, whatever you want to call it. We are supposed to be healthy, right? But you have to follow a lifestyle that mimics the one that we were born into. I don't think Coca-Cola and white processed food and sitting all day long was the life that Mother Nature, God, the universe intended us for. We need to move, we need to hug, we need to drink water, we need to sleep, and we need nourishment.

And the best way to get it is from spirulina and chlorella. The best and easiest. Again, it's health insurance, not just nutritional insurance, it's health insurance. So it's pretty powerful. And before I swing over to cancer, I do want to make one more, just do a little mini deep dive into another benefit of the SOD. So as I mentioned, the most mitochondria are in your brain and this almost a similar amount and I have tried for months to find a number for this, but nobody, I can't seem to find a number, but virtually your retina has virtually the same amount of mitochondria as your brain, because your eye is literally another brain because it's taking senses, strings of light and and converting that into an image in the back of your head. If you have eye issues, not just your reading deteriorating, but glaucoma and other serious eye issues, they are almost 100% predictor of heart disease and a heart attack within a year. Crazy, right? And why is that, it's because of the high concentration of mitochondria in your eye. There's 7,000 mitochondria per cell in your heart and there's close to 2 million in your eye. But the eye is more visible, you can tell when you have eye issues whether it's glaucoma. So it breaks my heart because I don't think there's any direct communication between the eye specialists and heart specialists, but I have talked to a lot of heart specialists and they confirm that this situation with the glaucoma is indeed real. And it even hit home with me with a fellow I grew up with all my life. He was like my best friend's brother. We did everything together and about a year ago he was diagnosed with some form of glaucoma, but they didn't know that was a predilection of potential heart issue. And so they didn't really do much about it. He's a big skier. He was out skiing about six months ago, had a heart attack, and died on the spot.

Ashley James (01:36:31.384)

Oh my goodness.

Catharine Arnston (01:36:33.920)

So, anybody who's listening, if you have glaucoma issues going on, get your heart checked because, pardon the pun, but it's more visible. It's damage that's occurring at the mitochondria level. I know I'm going to keep hammering home. All of your health issues are determined by your mitochondria, and some of them are easier to detect, like your eye, than your heart.

Ashley James (01:37:04.776)

I have a little side story to share. I am friends with a man who is on the kind of the same health path we've studied under the same nature paths. Really fascinating guy. I've told this story before on the show so I'll try to keep it brief. I forget the names but it's like Green Beret. He was like one of those, like those Navy Seals. He was like one of those, but I can't remember which one. But it's up there. It's like he used to be one of those. But before he actually was Amish and he left the Amish community. He loves them, but he left the Amish community to become like a Navy SEAL green braid, whatever. And him and I were hanging out and he said, and we study under the same doctor. And he was telling me this story. He goes, okay, so the doctor that we've studied under, I've studied under him for over 12 years. He is amazing naturopathic physician, old school. He's like 83 or something like that.

And he was, I mean, his story is fascinating. I've had him on the show twice, Dr. Joel Wallach. And he says that he's told people for over 20 years to not eat oil or fried food. 100% don't eat oil. He goes, just cook with water. He's not plant-based. He grew up on a farm. He thinks beef's amazing. To each is own. He's doing something right. He's 83, he still works. He works like six days a week and worships the Lord on the seventh day. And he’s a very fascinating man. But he says, never eat fried food. It destroys your health. Don't do it. Don't eat fried food. Don't eat oil. Well, our friend, his name's Marvin, and he decided to eat McDonald's fries every day. And he was doing like a little experiment. He wanted to see if he could notice a difference because he ate clean his whole life, right? He was grew up on this, he grew up on a farm, but he'd never really eaten the standard American diet. And he goes, I've never been sick. My whole life I've never been sick. And he is very passionate about studying health, but he'd never been sick. So he started eating McDonald's and started eating fries, just fries, not anything else, just fries at McDonald's. He drives home and he lives in Utah.

And it's really dark out if you've ever been to Utah, but just outside the city, it's pretty dark at night. And there he is driving home. It's like the moon isn't out and there's no street lights or anything, right? It's been seven days of eating fries every day. Now, it's  not been every meal, but every day he's had large fries. On the seventh day, somewhere around there, he's driving home and he realizes, he has completely lost his ability to read signs. He's lost his night vision.

He should have glasses at this point. Everything's fuzzy. He's driving home and he goes, I can't see. Now he was a green brayer, whatever it was. He had like 40, 20 vision. He had some crazy good eyesight. And all of a sudden, seven days of eating fries every day, his night vision was gone. It was shot. And he said, you know what happened? Obviously he stopped eating fries. He went back to his healthy lifestyle. He goes, it took me a year of taking antioxidant supplements and of course eating really healthy. But it took him a year of taking everything he could he knew to nourish the eyes, except for, chlorella and spirulina. But he took everything that he knew to take for eye health for a whole year. It took him a whole year to reverse the damage that seven days of eating fries and just think about all the people that are running around destroying. And so then we go to Dr. Wallach. Well, why did this happen? And Dr. Wallach pulls up an image of anatomy of the eye, specifically the vasculature. And it is the eye's mostly blood vessels. And these blood vessels, which are very small, just like the kidneys, right? Kidneys are another thing that gets damaged by fried foods. That's another reason. Dr. Wallach's been able to take people on dialysis and get them so healthy, they no longer need dialysis. And one of the things is fried food, get rid of oil, get rid of fried food, and then also get rid of any processed meats like have nitrates or nitrites. And because the vasculature is only wide enough to house single blood cells going through. So the vasculature is thinner than hair and it becomes destroyed and inflamed. And so then everything gets backed up. And what happens is that just eating that seven days where the fries was enough to inflame and damage the vasculature of the eye and the retina and the mitochondria and just everything took it like, I could not believe it took him a year to get his eyesight back. So just really we have to listen to our body and listen to the symptoms of our body and don't just go, oh, it's cause I'm getting older. You know, if you notice you can't see it at night very well, we got to take this seriously. Just like you said, the vasculature of the eye, things to go first, right? Men won't see the doctor till they have a penile dysfunction, till they have erectile dysfunction, right? When they can't get it up, that's when they go to their doctor. Well, they should have gone five years ago when they started developing diabetes, but it wasn't until their penis stopped working. Well, their heart has been affected by their declining health and the way they're eating. So we have to listen to the symptoms of the body.

And that person, the man who temporarily lost his penis' function, that can be reversed if we catch it quick enough. But also if he had listened to his body, he would have noticed years before, starting to get tired, going towards more sugar and more caffeine for energy, because he felt tired in the morning, not being able to stay up as late, just like falling asleep while watching TV, getting acid reflux, little things that normally the average person puts band-aids on. Oh, I'm going to take an antacid. I'm going to take a Tylenol or an Advil. I'm just going to drink some alcohol here and I'm going to self-medicate, right? I'm going to take some coffee here, alcohol here. People self-medicate instead of listen to the symptoms. And if we listen to the whispers, then we can catch something, but we have to know. And so I love that you said, if anything's happening with eyesight, especially like glaucoma, we need to get our heart checked right away. We need to take it seriously. And there's a way to reverse it. And we can do that with food, certain foods we gotta stop putting in our mouth and certain foods we gotta put in our mouth  more. 

Catharine Arnston (01:43:51.713)

Exactly. You've got to give your body what it needs and stop giving it what it doesn't. But you also raise a really very important point, which I want to emphasize. Your body, there's a great expression, an old ancient Asian expression. You never step in the same river twice because a river is flowing. So every second different things are flowing by and your body is the same way.

You have over 30 trillion cells in your body and guess what? 30 trillion cells die every day and 30 trillion new cells are born every day. You change your entire stomach lining, I think it's either 24 hours or 48 hours. Other parts of your body take longer, like your skin if you're young it's a 25 day turnover as you get older it's more like 60 days or 72 days your organs.

But the point is, is that if you have a condition, like this gentleman developed, you know, an eye condition, it's not, it doesn't have to be permanent, but you have to do something about it. And the other thing is that if you slide into this, getting into a condition,, in this case, it was unusual because it did happen so quickly, but usually things like cancer and heart disease. They call it silent inflammation for a reason. You don't even know that it's going on. You may be having damaged mitochondria and cellular acidity for decades before the symptoms even start showing up. And once the symptoms start showing up, then you start noticing, because your body's like finally throwing you a flare. It's like, hey, over here, buddy, like do something. And that gets your attention, but sadly in America, we think, oh, we need to go get a pill. But what you really need to do is evaluate what part of your lifestyle has caused this condition because the drugs only mask the symptoms. They will not correct the condition. And your friend at least was well aware that he had a change in condition, but look, it took him a year to regain back all of that new damage. And so this is why I tell people, even if you are healthy now, start taking spirulina and chlorella on a daily basis because you don't know what else is going on under that hood. There may be conditions that symptoms haven't shown up yet, but if you continue down the path you're on, they will eventually. This is why I again consider these two allergies as your health insurance and for a dollar a day you're worth it. Because lots of these symptoms take a very long time. In his case it was very dramatic.

But the eye, because also it's very porous, and porous things like blood, they change very, very quickly. Organs, which are very dense cells, take a long time to either get damaged and or corrected. So anyways, I just wanna mention that. Whatever condition you have, it does not have to be permanent, but you have to make a change.

And the algae seems to be the most effortless, most powerful instrument that has been proven time and time again to have that benefit. So I definitely want to talk about cancer because we've talked a little bit about the brain health and whether it's Alzheimer's, depression, anxiety, mitochondria health is critical and spirulina is proven to facilitate mitochondria health and of course that affects your brain and it also affects your heart because it also your heart also has such a high concentration of mitochondria and again that superoxide dismutase is stopping the free radical damage because it can get in there in the inner membrane to prevent all that damage. But there's another equally powerful nutrient. I have these usually these great visuals I show people It's sort of like Superman and superwoman So think of superoxide dismutase as Superman and the one I'm going to talk about now I've mentioned a couple times the blue pigment in spirulina called phycocyanin think of it as superwoman and again that spelled P-H-Y-C-O-C-Y-A-N-I-N and I'm sorry for repeating myself, but it's very important to me that you have the ability to go on Google and check some of these things that I'm telling you about and you'll see that I'm telling you the truth. But just like you wouldn't know to look for something, it's like those Rorshach inkblot tests where, there's that one picture where you see an old woman and suddenly you look at it differently and you see a young woman and then you look back and you see the old woman, right?

Now that you know some of these things. You're informed. So you can't unknow something. And so now you're more empowered to look for the things that you are aware of that will help you be healthier. And that's my goal here. So this other thing that I really want you to know about is this blue pigment called phycocyanin. So it's so powerful. I'll send you all the links so that you can put it with your show notes so people can get access to the actual links to the actual National Institute of Health studies where I get all this juicy stuff. So in this one particular study, they took a Petri dish and they put cancer cells in there and they dyed them purple just so you could see them in the Petri dish.

And then they added some phycocyanin, the blue pigment in spirulina, to the petri dish. And there's six images and it takes 24 hours. They space them, four hours apart, I guess. And after 24 hours, not all, but virtually all of the cancer cells are gone. Gone. That's because phycocyanin kills cancer cells.

And I'll tell you how it works in a minute. So I went into the study and I saw how much phycocyanin they used in this particular experiment. And I realized, and I checked our lab tests, one of our L-EnergyBits tablets, one, has 4,000 times more phycocyanin than they used in this particular experiment that basically wiped out all the cancer cells within 24 hours, gone, gone, right? I'd say that was pretty powerful. But just like superoxide dismutase, phycocyanin gets damaged by high heat. So anybody who is using, and it's 99% of the companies who use high heat to dry their algae, so these are lower priced algae companies, you're not getting the benefits of phycocyanin because they've killed it. The only other place that I can confidently direct you is to frozen spirulina because once again it has not been heated so your phycocyanin is alive and well and it will go to work for you. But let me tell you how this works. So I don't know how geeky Ashley's been on the mic. We're going deep, it's worth knowing it because again once you know you can't unknow.

So we know we've talked about this production of ATP in the mitochondria. Well, it's not like going to an ATM machine and you just get ATP. There, it's quite a complicated process. God love Mother Nature, Universe God, whatever you want to call it. It's beautiful how this all works. So the way the ATP is produced is in the mitochondria, in that inner membrane, there are these

four molecules that take the glucose from the food. So you eat food and your stomach digest it into smaller molecules called glucose that make their way into your cells and there's a process that reduces those into electrons. And so it's the passing of these electrons from one of these molecules to the next and there's four of them.

that actually, and then the fifth is where the actual ATP is produced. So think of these molecules like you would someone in a relay race. You've all seen relay races. You have four or five people. One person starts, they have the baton, they run a certain distance. They pass the baton to the next person. That person runs the next distance. And hopefully, the person who's at the last part of that group crosses the finish line and wins. So in your mitochondria, instead of,

runners, you have these four molecules and instead of crossing the finish line, you get ATP produced, which is cellular energy, so what they're passing instead of a baton is an electron and so it goes from one station and then there's a conversion that goes the next station, the next station and then boom ATP. Well it's a little more complicated than just a relay race, because in that process between the four stations, there's two other molecules. They're called transport molecules. They're kind of like having trainer wheels. They help the electron move a little faster from one station to the next. And the analogy that I've come up with is that when you're traveling, a lot of these airports are so big, and so you have to either take a shuttle bus or a shuttle train to get you to your gate. I call them shuttle molecules because they're kind of like a shuttle train. They help you, you may be at the airport but you're not at your gate yet. So you can't actually get to your plane. So there's two of these molecules that are like shuttle molecules. One of them, the first one, which we'll talk about maybe another time, is CoQ10. You've probably heard about the importance of CoQ10. And so it's a shuttle molecule and it is a fat-based molecule. And I'll do a little sidebar just while we're talking about CoQ10. Scientific studies have shown, if you have chlorophyll, and of course Chlorella has chlorophyll, and red light, so it could be red light therapy, it could be sunlight, it actually recycles the CoQ10 molecule so that it can generate ATP for you by recycling that CoQ10 molecule. You don't even have to eat. Pretty cool, right?

But that's the first molecule. That's CoQ10. And that's a fat-based shuttle bus. The other shuttle bus further down between 3 and 4 is called cytochrome c. I know these are, again, scientific terms, but feel free to go Google everything. So this little cytochrome c molecule is a water-based molecule. And guess what? The blue pigment in spirulina is a water-based molecule which I may have mentioned earlier and what it does in healthy cells is it speeds up that cytochrome c. This is one of the reasons why spirulina gives you more energy because it's speeding up the transition of those electrons through this shuttle bus cytochrome c so that you can generate more ATP at the final station. Pretty cool.

But if you have a cancer cell or what's called a zombie cell also known as a senescent cell basically a senescent cell is a cell that is subdivided so many times it's basically dead but it doesn't die it just hangs out and it's inflammatory and so you do things like fasting and cryotherapy to get rid of those senescent cells but back to the story so in a cancer cell or a senescent cell the zombie cells, instead of speeding up that cytochrome c molecule to generate energy, the blue pigment, phycocyanin, detects that it's a cancer cell and it kicks out that cytochrome c molecule completely, and that cytochrome c molecule kills the cancer cells or the senescent cells. Boom. And so just to repeat, in a healthy cell, the blue phycocyanin speeds up the cytochrome c molecule so that the electron transport chain can generate ATP for you faster, which is what you want, but in a cancer cell or a senescent cell which is a zombie cell it kicks out that cytochrome c molecule which then goes and automatically kills the cancer or senescent cells and here's the proof. Well, actually you can just google it and you'll find out about it but when you get chemotherapy, the way they tell whether it's working or not is they measure the amount of cytochrome c in your blood. Because if there's a lot of cytochrome c, that shows that the cancer cells c are dying because that's what cytochrome c does to cancer cells. And that's what they use in a lot of these chemotherapy treatments. I don't know whether it's the phycocyanin, well they do use the phycocyanin, and yes they do, sorry I was drifting there for a minute, and it kills the cancer cells. But who wants to wait to get cancer and who wants chemotherapy? You can kill your cancer cells now just by taking the spirulina tablets daily.

And daily we always have cancer cells, but if you have a strong immune system and strong mitochondria, and who does these days? Like nobody. But if you did, you can start taking the spirulina and it will start killing cancer cells immediately. Unbelievable, right? And none of this is conjecture. This is slam dunk. They are creating the chemotherapy companies in the pharmaceutical industry, they're deep in this rabbit hole of using phycocyanin to kill cancer cells. But who wants to wait to get such a diagnosis of cancer? You can start killing those cancer cells now and trust me, we all have them everywhere at all times.  Cancer is basically cells that have gone rogue. They're acidic, they are not functioning properly, they're not communicating properly, they multiply and they're so damaging and inflammatory. They take over others' neighboring cells so quickly. And by the way, while we're talking on the amazing properties of this blue phycocyanin, there's another amazing property that it does. And again, it's a bit geeky. It's called antiangiogenesis. So what that means is angiogenesis is basically the growth of blood vessels. And you need the growth of blood vessels to feed your brain, to feed your organs, to feed just about everything. But you don't want the growth of blood vessels to tumors. But that's what happens with cancer and tumors. They basically hijack your blood vessels and reroute them to feed them. So they have a blood source so they can grow quickly. And there are certain things that cause what's called anti-angiogenesis, which means it stops the growth of those blood vessels.

The blue pigment in spirulina has been proven to do that. And the process is called anti-angiogenesis. And in fact, there's a really famous nonprofit organization based here in Boston called the Angiogenesis Organization. It was formed by Dr. Li, L-I. And all their research is on things that prevent the growth of these damaging blood vessels to tumors. And I think it was about eight years ago, we got a call from his organization, which is right here where I live in Boston, and he said, we're doing our 20th year celebration conference and we would like you to come and set up a table because did you know that the blue phycocyanin in your spirulina has anti-angiogenesis properties. We didn't even know at the time and then they sent me a bunch of papers and sure enough Bill Gates was there and Bill Clinton was there. I mean very prestigious organization. Dr. Li is very well informed. He's got a great TED talk. He's one of my mini heroes. Anyways so we went and but that's just one more cool thing about blue phycocyanin. A. It kills cancer cells. B. It stops the growth of blood vessels, two tumors, and I might as well throw a third one in there while we're rolling on phycocyanin. As you know with COVID, it has those prongs that stick out from it, those prongs that stick out are how the virus attaches to your cell so that it can invade your cell. Now the cells that it invades are called ACE2 receptor cells. And these types of cells are predominantly found in your nose, your mouth, your throat, your stomach, and your lungs. That's predominantly where these ACE2 receptor cells are. And it's where all viruses enter, but particularly COVID. So blue phycocyanin has been found to sit on top of those ACE2 receptor cells and basically shield them. So the COVID virus can't get in. It's like having a superhero standing in front of your cells. And so if you got exposed to COVID, it would just slip through because it can't get in. It doesn't have the combination lock to get into your cells. And proof of this is that a couple of years ago, when we were height of COVID, the University of Pittsburgh was developing a nose spray made of algae. And I'm pretty sure it was the phycocyanin because, researchers know about this. It just always amazes me how much science is available. 

And this is why I feel I have a role in the world because I go to a lot of these science conferences and I read a lot of scientific papers. But you have to know the jargon. I mean, they speak in jargon. They don't know how to explain simple terms. Like they wouldn't know to talk about a free radical being like a bullet bouncing around or, a fireman or superoxide dismutase being like a fireman who hoped to put out the fire. But I do because I've always been a writer and it seems that I love science. So, the science has been around in many cases 60, 70 years, but it hasn't made its way out to you.

And I read a statistic somewhere years ago that said, like, once there's been a scientific discovery, it takes an average of 18 years before practitioners even know about it because it's still hanging around in the scientific world before the practitioner. And then, it didn't say this, but I think it's true. It's another 18 or 28 years before it moves from the practitioner awareness to consumers. The fact that all this research around spirulina and the superoxide dismutase, and we didn't even get to glutathione or the chlorophyll that's found in chlorella, that's a whole, another two or three hours, but the fact that the science is there's a 100,000 studies, about 60,000 for spirulina and about 40,000 for chlorella, documenting all the different health benefits, whether it's brain health, gut health, detox, skin health, stopping breakouts, wrinkles, the important ones clearly like heart health, mitochondria, a 100,000! I mean, you can't argue with 100,000, but the problem is the knowledge from these papers haven't made their way even to this practitioner community they certainly haven't made their way to the consumer and the other side of the coin is nobody knows the nutrition of algae like I do so even if the practitioners knew about superoxide dismutase and cytochrome c, most of them know about that but they don't know that you can get the highest concentration of these nutrients that protect the mitochondria from algae, 

So there's this huge void that I'm trying to fill to help people understand the science, understand algae, and so that the two worlds can meet because honestly it's from Mother Nature, it's absolutely effortless, it's so proven, but keep in mind not all algae is the same. Algae, like I said at the beginning, is like wine and the way you produce and dry and grow the algae affects the nutrient value by a hundred percent. So you can't just grow a bunch of grapes, stomp on them and then put it through a sieve and think you've got wine. You've got to let it distill. You've got to do a thousand different things before it's ready to be consumed. Same with algae. So there's all these companies. I mean, you can go to Costco, you can go to Target, you can go to just about any place, CVS, and buy spirulina and chlorella. But what you're missing are these critical nutrients, and we've only talked about two, superoxide dismutase and phycocyanin, that aren't in 90% of them, or 95% of them, because they've been killed in the production process. So people are not getting the true prevention benefits or restorative benefits or maintenance benefits. Yes, they give you the nutrition. But man, the clinical benefits far outweigh even the nutritional benefits. Of course, they're very tightly intertwined. So anyways, I just want people to understand, if you can understand your body better, it amazes me, we know how our cell phone works better than we know how our body works. And so if you can just, Body Health 101 is the first lesson is don't eat garbage and understand that the mitochondria are the key determinant for everything. And so whatever you do should be to preserve and protect and nurture, nourish your mitochondria. And when you do that, they will protect and nourish you. You guys are on the same team. I tell people I never eat alone. I always eat with my mitochondria.

Ashley James (02:08:07.140)

That's so good to think about because we tend to eat like we're four years old and we're like a kid in a candy shop. We tend to choose dinner based on what is going to taste good. And if you remember that you're eating with your mitochondria, everything you put in your mouth is going to be feeding your mitochondria. Do you want bullets ricocheting in your cells, creating cancer and creating early death and before you die early, you will have years of suffering and declining health. 

That is guaranteed because you look at the average person and the last few years of life are not pretty for those that eat the standard American diet. It is incredibly unfortunate. Or you imagine you're eating with and for your mitochondria, you're nourishing your mitochondrial cells. Okay, don't eat foods that are super fun, right? Like not everyone needs a kid's meal, right? We can be a responsible adults. And here's the thing chew your food more, get some fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, legumes, beans. And for me, it's non-gluten whole grains. I'm super into quinoa, buckwheat and amaranth, taff. The list goes on and on. You can get brown rice. You can get lots of organic non-gluten grains. So no barley, wheat, rye, oats for me. There's many benefits to avoiding those personally. But eating a wide variety of really healthy foods, incorporating algae, incorporating the, use coupon code LTH. I want you guys to save money and also get the best one on the market. Incorporating that into your life because you're eating with and for your mitochondria. And then here's the thing, maybe dinner isn't the most delicious thing out there, but it is nourishing your cells, it's still gonna be yummy, it still is, because your body knows it's good for you. And maybe you don't love the taste of your kale salad the first time you eat it. There's ways to make it delicious. I can teach you if you want. Write me an email or find me on Facebook, we have a Learn True Health Facebook group. I'm gonna talk about that in a second actually because if you've listened for over two hours, I think we should do a giveaway for If you're still here, we will we're gonna do a giveaway but think about this, if you don't know how to make really healthy food taste good, please come reach out to me. I created a little membership. I filmed for many, many hours in the kitchen and I made delicious meals that are very healthy and also very easy. And so you go to click on Home Kitchen. You could check that out or just message me, join the Learn to Health Facebook group and say, Hey, Ashley, how do I eat really healthy but also delicious? I'll tell you, I'll point you in the direction of some resources so you can find simple, quick, delicious meals. But the thing is, as you eat healthier and cleaner because you're eating with your mitochondria and for your mitochondria, for your cells, as you eat cleaner, your body actually begins to enjoy and crave those foods more. And there's a lot of studies that show that you're not only feeding your cells in the mitochondria, which are this amazing bacteria that live inside your cells, you're also feeding the bacteria that live outside your body in your digestive tract, because we're kind of like a donut. The inside of a donut is not like the little hole, is represents our intestines, and that's considered still outside the body, because it hasn't been absorbed yet. And so there's about six

pounds worth of bacteria. So think about like there's a chihuahua or like a little baby panda that lives inside you that you're feeding. And it actually helps digest our food and it's a pharmacy, it's a complicated pharmacy that creates nutrients for us, digests our food and makes nutrients for us and then we absorb those nutrients. And when you have a really healthy, robust microbiome, which I have lots of interviews about that. Listeners can go to, type in microbiome, and use the search there. They can also type in viome, and use the search there, and listen to those episodes. Listen to my episodes with Sarica Cernohous. Those are really good ones to listen to for understanding more about the microbiome of the gut. But fun thing, when we feed it healthy foods, the microbiome excretes chemicals that go into our brain and make us crave those good foods. Likewise, an imbalance of yeast or candida can make chemicals that overtake your brain and force you to crave foods that feed the bad stuff.

So a lot of times we walk around thinking we're actually following our body's cravings, we are slaves to the what's living in our gut. If you have craving for donut and you're driving up to Krispy Kremes, you need to stop and go, wait a second. That's the bad guys in my gut that want me to feed them that I'm going to go eat the kale salad and throw some chlorella.

Catharine Arnston (2:13:40.605)

Chlorella is the answer to feeding your gut and your gut biome. And it's just as effortless as the spirulina. And so the other thing, you're absolutely right, but I just want to reinforce again, because a lot of people, when they first realize that what they're eating isn't healthy and they're facing this huge monumental shift in lifestyle and food choices. So here's what I want to tell you. If you did not change anything added 10 or 20 or 30 spirulina in the morning and 10 or 20 30 chlorella tablets at night as many as you can get into you just add those because that's effortless again put them in your hand swallow them down chew them whatever it takes but then that will automatically start nourishing your mitochondria your cell walls your brain your gut and it will slowly ease you into choosing on your own to make other changes. But the reason I like it so much is because we are told so many things, well stop doing that and stop doing that and stop doing that. This isn't something that you can add to your life that you don't have to if you don't want to if you're not ready yet. You don't have to change anything but just add it and that alone will make a difference because you will start feeling better. You'll be nourished.

I mean, we had this one woman who was 85 years old write us. We have people writing us every single day. And this woman was incontinent. She couldn't sleep. She had no energy. She started taking our spirulina and chlorella. And like within 24 hours, she said her incontinence was gone. She could sleep six or seven hours in a one fell swoop. Her energy was so high that she said, this is what I did today. I went to see my grandson played basketball at school, I went to see my friend at the nursing home, I did a two mile walk, I came home, I cleaned my garage, I painted my kitchen, and at five o'clock I had some dinner. Oh, and she now does CrossFit. This is an 85 year old woman. And so she got a whole new everything, sleeping through the night, not being (inaudible 2:16:00.49). I want to go hang out with her. Like any 85 year old that's doing CrossFit, I want her number. But so this is all she did. This was the same, like when we did that our clinical trial with those veterans, all they did was add spirulina. They did nothing else, changed nothing else. So, so yes, the goal is to have a healthy lifestyle that includes nourishing foods and lots of regular activity, movement of any kind, good sleep. But on the nutrition side, you don't have to throw everything out and start over again. In fact, don't change anything. But definitely add, because honestly, algae has been around for so long, four billion years, I might point out.

The Egyptians used it 2,000 years ago. The Aztecs used it 250 years ago. They've been using it in Asia for over 60 years daily. It's time. It's time for algae to be recognized. There is nothing else in the world with more nutrition, more healing properties, more nutrients that do things that nothing else can do. And so you might as well get on the algae train now so you can learn to determine the difference between a good company with nutritious, safe, clean algae. You can give your pets or your newborns or your grandparents and one that's just not well grown, not well carefully dried, missing lots of the nutrients. You've got to educate yourself so that you can get maximum benefit from your purchase. And I am very proud of what it is that we do and how

how clean, I mean, we sell through doctors offices. We do third-party lab tests. I couldn't live without this stuff. I take it every single day. I couldn't imagine a day without algae.

Ashley James (02:17:56.148)

I introduced this back when we first did our first interview years ago to one of my best friends who to this day orders on a regular basis. And she said without a doubt, she noticed a remarkable improvement in her hair, skin and nails like night and day. And now she's already very healthy. This woman is gorgeous and, and she's listening probably. But she noticed night and day improvement and also, energy, feeling healthier. But she will not be without this stuff because she said absolutely better hair, skin and nails. And of course, when we look better on the outside, it means something good to happen on the inside, right? Because that's how the body works. And I've got my bag right here. I've been you've made me want some. I've got my bag.

Catharine Arnston (02:18:52.460)

Because you're mentioning beauty, so we do have a brand of spirulina called Beauty Bits because I found when I started the company, the women didn't like the packaging of the blue spirulina. And I started the company because of my sister having breast cancer. So women's health has always been important to me. And the spirulina has more collagen than collagen powder.

It protects your elastin and your collagen production and it kills bacteria so that you don't get blemishes. So anyways it's very good for skin and hair and I wanted women to like the packaging. So we do have a second spirulina called Beauty Bits. And just again a little sort of side note so there's lots of very expensive creams that have been using extracts of algae in their formulations for at least 20 or 30 years. One that you might know is called La Mer. A small jar that's about the size of a tin. It costs $450,  but they're only putting extracts in there and it's $450. And it's only getting on your face because that's $450 you certainly wouldn't be bathing in it. But when you take algae as it's called an ingestible so you're swallowing it or chewing it. It's a more than extracts. It's the whole deal and it's going to all of your body not just your skin but also your organs, your brain, your cells, your digestion, it improves digestion improves elimination so it's a it amazes me that algae has kind of been around, but in the behind the scenes. And it's sort of like someone who's always been a supporting actor. And it's time for Algae to step up and be recognized as a, as a leading man or leading woman.

Ashley James (02:20:49.586)

Nice. Well, we could talk for many, many hours. I want to do a giveaway for the listeners who stuck it out for almost two and a half hours. I want to reward them. So so tell us the details of the giveaway. I'm going to do it in my Facebook group, the Learn True Health Facebook group. And you let us know what you're giving away and I'll create the giveaway in the group.

Catharine Arnston (02:21:20.060)

Well, because we've spent a lot of time on spirulina and because we have two brands of spirulina, how about we do a large canister of EnergyBits and a large canister of BeautyBits, because they're both spirulina. And the canister is fantastic because it comes with a large bag of tablets inside. And you open the bag, put it into the canister. By the way, the canister also comes with a really cute travel tin so you can always carry about 60 tablets with you wherever you go. And when the canister is empty, as you only get a canister once, then you refill it by buying a bag. So the canister is great to put on your counter. It reminds you to take your tablets, because they don't need to be refrigerated or anything. And the packaging is really beautiful. So how about we do that?

And again, remember a full bag that's in these large canisters equals the same nutrition as 551 pounds of vegetables. So I live in a one-bedroom condo, and I think 551 pounds of vegetables would take up all the space in my kitchen, living room, bedroom, bathroom, and eke out into the hallway. So it's a very, very concentrated nutrition.

Just again, they're safe for pets, babies, pregnant women, nursing moms, grandparents, children. Give your child one or two tablets per their age. So if they're six, you could give them three or six a day.

Ashley James (02:23:01.616)

But you can give them more. I've like just handed the bag to my son and he eats till he is done. Sometimes he'll just eat six. Sometimes he'll eat 20. We'll munch on it. You can eat more because you can't overdo it because it's like you said, it's a crop. You can't overdo it. But especially if you're budgeting, you can just give five or six to a child.

Catharine Arnston (02:23:25.298)

Yeah, I was at a chiropractic conference about four years ago and this chiropractor, I'm trying to remember his name anyways, he's a heart surgeon, his wife is a chiropractor. Anyways, they brought their little daughter, she was I think maybe 16 months, no taller than maybe two feet max, probably weighed 40 pounds if that, 30 pounds. Anyways, they've been feeding her our algae, spirulina chlorella, since she was born.

This little girl, and I have pictures of her, she's absolutely adorable, maybe I'll remember to send them to you, Ashley. She came over to my table, and she started eating our chlorella. She came back probably five times, whole handfuls, just shoved them down her mouth. She had the green on the sides of her mouth. She was making me so proud. In the space of probably two minutes, she must have consumed at least a hundred tablets. This is a year and a half child that was like maybe a foot and a half. I don't have kids so I can't figure out the weight. But I finally said, I think she's probably had enough. But they were fine with it. And so to your point, you can have as much as you want. It's very, very concentrated nutrition. So we always start people with smaller amounts just because if you have been eating a bad diet, it's a lot of nutrition to hit your body with if you suddenly chow down 50 or 60 tablets. But after a while, you get so used to it that you love the energy. You will notice when you stop eating spirulina. Your energy level will plummet. Your mind just doesn't function.

Ashley James (02:25:02.276)

It's no just to preface this you just go back to the way you were you just don't realize if you eat it and you're feeling great and then you stop eating it it's not that you go worse it's you just you go oh my gosh I can't believe that's how I used to feel. Yeah, it's not like you stop eating it and then there's like negative effects of being off of it. But just like it's amazing how we walk around.

Catharine Arnston (02:25:39.246)

Well, it's like putting gas in your car. When you don't have gas in your car, your car doesn't work. When you put gas back in your car, your car works. So think of spirulina in particular, it’s the equivalent of gas for your car, very high test gas or electricity, electricity even better.

Ashley James (02:25:42.794)

Love it. So you essentially have three products on your site. And we've talked about this in the other episodes. You have chlorella and it's packaged in different packages because sometimes people would like a caniste,r with like a bag or there's a few different colors because you notice that women didn't want a masculine bag. They wanted a feminine bag. And I'm not one of those kind of women. I don't care what color the bag is. I'm it's like the good stuff's inside the bag. I don't care what the bag looks like, but there's some women who just  want it to not look like their husband's chlorella. I don't know. And so their's more elegant, so that you could have this beautiful canister on like a cookie jar, basically on your counter reminding you to take it and that's great. I'm so no frills. I'm like, throw me the bag, I'm gonna shove them in my mouth, just give me the good stuff. But some people like the good look. 

Catharine Arnston (02:26:35.518)

Yeah. And I'm very high frills. 

Ashley James (02:26:38.324)

And that's great. I appreciate women who are. I appreciate that. That's not me, but that's cool. So, I mean, it's so beautiful how there's this gorgeous spectrum of femininity. In our femininity, we can be no frills and we can be all frills and then we get anywhere in between. So, you have three products. You have Chlorella, you have…

Catharine Arnston (02:27:04.316)

Well, we actually have two. Spirulina and Chlorella. Boom.

Ashley James (02:27:06.992)

Right, but the third one is the combination of the two.

Catharine Arnston (02:27:09.068)

Yes, so there's two spirulina, BeautyBits and EnergyBits. They're just packaged differently, but they're both spirulina. Then there's the chlorella, which we call RecoveryBits, because it helps you recover your health, recover your gut, recover from drinking, recover from sports, recover from day. Very healing, very detoxing, really builds your immune system. And we didn't talk much about the immune system, but the mitochondria health and your immune system are the two things that work equally powerfully to keep you healthy. But they do different things. So chlorella is the other part and that's the RecoveryBits. And then we have a fourth brand that's called VitalityBits, which is a blend of the spirulina and chlorella. And we did that because some people just want simplicity. They don't want to have to think about spirulina in the morning and chlorella at night. So, this way they just take both the VitalityBits in the morning and they take it at night. They just one stop shop. And one thing I didn't mention, which I should, is because there's so much nutrition in both of them, especially spirulina, it can replace many other things that you already have, like a multivitamin, fish oil, Coq10, biotin for your hair, vegetables even. So it's not that you're gonna spend more money, you'll actually end up spending less because there's less things to track, fewer expiry dates, by the way, the algae last are expired dates usually three years and it never actually goes bad.

Ashley James (02:28:39.120)

It does not, because I have found partially used bags, like in a gym bag somewhere. And I'm like, oh, that was from five years ago or something like that's from many, many years ago. And then I eat them. I'm like, that doesn't taste sale. This tastes great. So I've had that experience where I'll find like a partially used up bag of EnergyBits to RecoveryBits. And I'm like, well, we're just going to keep eating these ones. And it's great. Yeah. Just keep going.

Catharine Arnston (02:29:06.097)

So it does replace a lot of things so you ultimately will save money. Remember if you took 10 a day, it's only a dollar a day. With cancer rates, heart disease, Alzheimer's escalating, no slowdown in the foreseeable future, you just have to be very proactive and protective of your health. This is hand-to-hand combat.Take control over your life. Don't hand it off to the medical community, which as we talked before, I mean, I don't want to bash the medical community because they're very important in certain situations, accidents, major surgeries, but the prevention side of wellness is not their strength. And so things like sleep and nutrition are. And so algae is the best nutrition you can ever put in your body and by the way the chlorella even helps you sleep. So prevention is where the action is and whatever age you are whether you're 25 or 55 I tell people it's never too late to feel great. 

Ashley James (02:30:16.682)

I love it. Well, and to do a 30 day challenge, get a bag of chlorella, get a bag of spirulina, use coupon code LTH is in Learn to Health at Of course, these links are going to be in the show notes of today's podcast at And then do a 30 day challenge and check. Tell us about see how you like it.

In our Facebook group, the Learn to Health Facebook group, when this goes live, I'm going to make a post asking, “What is your favorite thing you learned from today's episode?” And then I'm going to pick a winner. Actually, I have my son do it. I'll give it a few weeks to fill in, cause everyone takes their own time to listen to each episode. And then, after a few weeks, I'm going to have my son pick the winner. And of course, regardless of when you're listening to this, cause it could be five years from now that you're listening to this, jump in the Facebook group, read the comments, maybe someone else learned something that you didn't or you can learn from other people's comments. And also jump in the Facebook group and share what your experiences have been with taking the EnergyBits and the RecoveryBits and let us know what health changes you noticed. Like I was really surprised that my friend was like, “My hair, skin and nails are absolutely amazing! And I think there was one point where she stopped eating it and then she noticed her hair eventually just became lifeless again and thinner and not great. And then she started eating again. She's like, “Oh yeah, I remembered, I really like these!” And she's like, “Now I'm never without them because I really notice a difference in hair, skin and nails.” And I'd never noticed that because my thing was detox. I take the chlorella for heavy metal detox and I really notice a difference. Like hugely, huge. I'll feel, I'll be in like a very toxic state and then I'll take them and I'll just feel it sucking it out of me. Like it's a natural key later. I'll just feel it sucking it out of me and I will eat them in conjunction with sauna therapy and I'll also take them when I'm really hungry but I'm also really busy and I don't have time for a meal. I'll just pop some in my mouth. Or like I said before, when we're just sitting around and we feel like we wanna snack and we wanna chew something and it's salty and it's just the best. And I smile ear to ear watching my family eat these instead of junk food. Not that we have junk food in our house, but we could. 

Catharine Arnston (02:32:40.711)

Yes, and we'll get you some more. we probably have to wrap up, but one thing I do want to mention is, and hardly ever anybody talks about it, is constipation. Whether, if you're eating a lot of bread and sugar, you're going to have a slower digestion because the bacteria suck those things up and slow everything down, which causes you to be constipated. If you are on any kind of medications or antibiotics because they wipe out all the healthy bacteria which again allows the bad bacteria to flourish, and the bad bacteria eat all your food and slow down your digestion and also just when you're older and so you're not moving as much in many cases that causes constipation and when you're traveling i mean the list is endless. Chlorella clears that up for you. 

This is another reason why we want you to take the chlorella, which is called RecoveryBits, before bed because it will work through all the stuff, the junk in your trunk, and the chlorophyll and the other nutrients in chlorella will stimulate what's called peristalsis and magnesium also stimulates that, so that's another thing you can do if you are constipated. But there's magnesium in both the algae. But it does help with that.

Like I said, it's something a lot of people don't talk about, but it's more common than you believe. So that's another sort of benefit for Chlorella, because I know we spent most of the time talking about its sister, Spirulina. So they're both amazing. So, anyway.

Ashley James (02:34:21.163)

I love it. I love it. That's so great. I hope I hope everything's okay in Boston. I feel like the entire interview, I've heard nothing but sirens in the background. I just want to like call up Boston, be like, you okay, Boston? 

Catharine Arnston (02:34:32.094)

Oh, yes. I'm sorry. Well, I live right beside Mass General Hospital. So, the ambulances normally close off their sirens by the time they get here. I'm sorry about that. 

Ashley James (02:34:41.166)

Oh my goodness. No, I was just thinking was there some kind of major emergency? Oh my goodness. When I listened to podcasts when I'm driving and if there's like that background sound, like looking everywhere. So I hope the listeners weren't like driving around listening, going, oh, is there a siren nearby? Oh, but no, and it's not your fault. I mean, other than you chose to live near a hospital, but that's what we get, right? For living in the beautiful city of Boston, right? That's what we get. Oh my goodness. It's been wonderful having you on the show again. And I can't wait to have you back.

Please come back when you earn your PhD, after all the sifting through the data of your study, when that's published, I want you back. Anytime you've got major findings, I want you back. Here's your passion and your compassion, right? You have both. You've got compassion in one hand and passion in the other, and you want to bring this information out to the world. It's not just about you selling a product to us. 

Catharine Arnston (02:35:48.915)

No, I've never wanted to be a vendor. I just want to help people, but algae is the best and easiest way to do it and scientifically proven. It slows me, it upsets me a little bit that I can't get this information out faster. So thank you actually for helping me.

Ashley James (02:36:04.857)

So absolutely, and everyone share this information with those you care about. And what I get from Catherine, her and I have known each other for a few years now, which is really cool, because you know what, when I first met you was through Shark Tank. I watched that episode live, and I despise Mark Cuban for his comments that I still remember that episode. Yes, you were there.

Catharine Arnston (02:36:29.081)

Oh my god!

Ashley James (02:36:31.617)

And then it was a few years later that we connected. And so I've gotten to know Catherine over the years. And what I get is that you brought EnergyBits to market because there's a need and there's no ethical company doing it for us. And you're the one going well, because there's so many unethical companies selling it cheaply that are harming people. We're not getting the benefits because of the way they're processing it. And you're standing up going, no, this is such a powerful superfood that has so many healing properties that could really change people's lives but we have to invest in the way to farm it and to process it so that we maintain the quality and we test for purity, so you do all that and it costs a lot of money to test every batch and make sure that everything's clean and everything's well done. So we're passing on our dollars to make sure we get a superior product. And I really appreciate you. And I know 100 years from now, you and I won't be here, but your legacy will live on and that you have been an early adapter to spread this information. And I always describe it as this visual of a little ripple becoming a tidal wave, right? So this little ripple of information needs to go out, but the listeners, the person that's going to make it grow into the tidal wave to become a roar, to help people and spread it. So listeners share this information with those you care about and share it with those you don't care about. You know, Jesus talks about forgiving our enemies. You should be sharing this. Share this with your enemies and then make them wonder if they're your enemies or your friends. They're going to be like, wait a second, she shared it with me. Am I a friend or an enemy? But forgive your enemies. Share this information with them as well. We should all want to get better together. Thank you so much for coming on the show and listeners. Please check out, use coupon code LTH and come into the Facebook group, the Learn True Health Facebook group and join in the giveaway and in the conversation. Yes! And Catherine, I can't wait to have you back on the show. It's been such a pleasure.

Catharine Arnston (02:38:47.669)

Yes. Thank you Ashley.

We'll get that giveaway going. Yes.

Thank you. Algae is the answer. So just give it a try.


Get Connected With Catharine Arnston!

Official Website





Recommended Book by Catharine Arnston

Vitamin K2 And The Calcium Paradox by Kate Rheaume – Bleue

Recommended Links:

Learn True Health – Episode 357

Learn True Health – Episode 265

Learn True Health – Episode 218

Learn True Health – Episode 227

Downloadable Information About Chlorella And Spirulina:

why is our spirulina and chlorella the safest and best

mothers milk and spirulina-have the same nutritional profile chart and explanation 3 pages

chlorophyll content in sprirulina and chlorella compared to other vegetables- one page (2)

Vitamin K2 is found in RECOVERYbits chlorella, helps prevent heart disease, Alzheimer's, and osteoporosis

Sep 15, 2023

Webinar On The Science Behind The Organix Mattress:

To learn more, explore and see the deal Joey has given us:

Or Call 1.866.647.5513 and remember to mention Ashley James and the Learn True Health Podcast (LTH coupon code) for the amazing deal!

Come join our FB group!

Dr. Wendie's gift to you:

510: Mastering Wellness with Dr. Wendie Trubow

Are you taking a backseat in your own health journey? This episode, featuring the brilliant Dr. Wendie Trubow, will inspire you to grab the wheel as she shares her knowledge on small daily habits that can make a big difference in your health. From the importance of thoroughly chewing our food to selecting a proper mattress for optimal sleep, Dr. Wendie walks us through the small but impactful changes we can make to achieve overall wellness. She also underscores the crucial role of maintaining a good sleep routine, and the often underrated impact of melatonin on our health.

However, our conversation with Dr. Wendie doesn’t stop at sleep and nutrition. We also delved into the role of regular exercise and sweating in our bodies’ detoxification process, and how even the busiest of us can incorporate this crucial step into our daily lives. We explore the underappreciated aspects of digestion and stress management in nutrient absorption and the potential consequences of neglecting these areas. Dr. Wendie also talks about her functional medicine approach and how telemedicine is revolutionizing the way care is provided.

In the final part of our discussion, we touch on the importance of self-love and its connection to our relationship with food. Dr. Wendie shares insights from her upcoming book and how she has navigated her own health journey through making healthier food choices. She also gifts us with her personal smoothie recipe, and the surprising ingredient she adds for prebiotic support. This episode is a treasure trove of practical tips and scientific knowledge that will give your health a major boost. So, take a seat, tune in, and empower yourself with the tools to take charge of your health today.


  • Improving health through small daily changes
  • Starting your journey to better health
  • The importance of sleep and health talk
  • The importance of melatonin in health
  • Chewing and stress in digestion importance
  • Controversy surrounding whole-food smoothies
  • Importance of exercise and sweating
  • Transforming health and environment through consumerism
  • Perimenopause



(0:00:000) Ashley James: Hello True Health seeker, and welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health Podcast. We had an amazing episode with Dr. Wendie Trubow, who's coming back on the show. We had her in Episode 482, where she shared her personal story of recovering from mold and heavy metals and environmental toxins. She teaches about mycotoxins and how we can repair the gut in order to repair our immune system, in order to gain true health. That was Episode 482, and she comes back today to teach the foundations of health and where to start. If you're feeling unwell or if you're feeling good but you know that there's a better you you could have. You know that there's like man, I feel good but I'm not optimal then we're going to go through a checklist today of things that you can do to improve, to tweak, to biohack, to enhance your health tiny, tiny tweaks that make a huge difference when it comes to digestion, absorption of your nutrition and optimization of your immune system and increasing joy and happiness in your life. Basically, we're just going to go through and look through all the little things you do each day that make a huge difference. Recently, I heard someone talk about the little things that make the big difference. For example, if you skipped brushing your teeth today, there wouldn't be any substantial change to your dental health. If you went a week without brushing your teeth. Obviously you'd have bad breath and your teeth would kind of feel fuzzy, but no real substantial change to your dental health. Now you go five years without brushing your teeth and you're going to be screaming in pain in the dental chair and be very, very, very uncomfortable. That's the accumulation of little daily changes. 

Today, Dr. Wendie talks about those little things. Let's say, for example, she talks about chewing your food. We've all heard the saying chew, chew, chew your food, chew like twenty times and the average person only chews three times. I've actually counted and caught myself and went wow, I barely chewed three times before I swallowed that bite of food. We do not absorb all of our nutrition when we barely chew our food. If you could imagine, if you counted and became more conscious of chewing your food. Put down your fork, chew your food. Maybe 20 times per mouthful is too much for you, but try six chews instead of three. You've just doubled the amount of absorption and digestion from your food, going from three chews to six chews. Now try ten. Try ten chews and be mindful. You will find that you're optimizing your digestion. So we go through these little tweaks that you can make to your life that are going to make a huge difference a year from now if you do them every day. A huge difference even a week from now, if you do them every day, you will start to feel powerful changes in your life. 

Another thing we talk about in today's episode is sleep, and of course, everyone knows this. Everyone knows they should drink water, everyone knows they should get enough sleep. But if you're sleeping on a mattress that wasn't designed for your optimal sleep, then, no matter how good you are about going to bed on time, you're not getting optimal sleep. Recently I had an episode with Joey Woodward, Episode 504, where we talked about a mattress that was specifically designed as a medical device to not only prevent bed sores but to help the body heal bed sores up into stage four bed sores. They're used in hospitals today. This type of material that then they put into a completely organic, non-toxic mattress that's made by hand in the US. 

I have one. It was life-changing. Actually, my husband and I were just joking about it this morning because he was up in the night. He's doing a fast right now. God love him. He's on day four of a fast. There's somewhere around the first few days of a fast. One or two nights is kind of rough. It's just restless. The body's doing a lot of detoxing and usually when we detox we're feeling it. He doesn't have any symptoms other than he was just wide awake, probably four in the morning and he was up quite a bit. This morning he goes,”Man, I did not get great sleep last night.” I'm like, “Really, because when I got up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night he was sound asleep.” But he says he was up half the night. He goes, you know, with our old mattress, every time I would have been awake, you would have felt it. That's so true. We don't with this mattress. We can sleep on it and he could be jumping on one side. I'm not going to feel it on the other. 

The most important thing about this mattress is you get the deepest restorative sleep. That is, of course, unless you're doing some kind of detox and fasting. Then your body's just going to do what it does but normally amazing sleep is had with the Organix mattress. I highly recommend checking it out. I do have some news, I just got this week and that's why I want to talk about it. If you listen to my episodes about the Intellibed Organix mattress, you're going to want to purchase one in the next five months. That is because the company was just bought by a different company. Unfortunately, the huge discount that I negotiated with the creator of this mattress that has been honored for the last few years, this great, great, great discount is going to be going away. That's sad, but you have five months. You have the next five months to purchase this mattress. 

This mattress lasts for over 25 years. There's people who even have had one for 30 years and still sleep it on it perfectly. It does not warp. It's amazing. It's really a fantastic investment as far as mattresses are concerned. You are saving money because it's like you're paying twice as much as a normal mattress, but it lasts four to five times longer than any mattress. You are saving money. Plus, you're getting way deeper sleep. That's going to restore your body. It feels like absolute heaven to lie on this. You can be in any position. You can lie on your back, you can lie on your sides. You'll be able to sleep soundly through the night, with no pain points at all, no stiffness. You will not wake up with any pain from sleeping positions, because it cradles your body perfectly, keeps your spine perfectly aligned, no matter how you sleep. I just cannot say enough about how much I love this and how I wish all of you had one. 

I want you to go to That's where you can check out the webinar we did about the science around this mattress and the materials. You'll learn more. If you really want to geek out on understanding the studies and the science and everything that went into it, go to, check it out. If you'd like to explore the fantastic listener discount and special, with all the goodies that they throw in and the discount and the free shipping and everything, go to That's, O-R-G-A-N-I-X. Then you can always call them. They're wonderful. They're open seven days a week. When you call them, mention the Learn True Health podcast with coupon code LTH to be able to get the huge special. Their phone number is 866-647-5513. That's 866-647-5513. I'm going to have all this information in the show notes of today's podcast. Remember, you have five months from today, today's September 2023. You have five months in order to get this special. 

Now, their Organix company is working on a prototype right now to replace what they're using. They promise it's going to be amazing so that we'll have something in the future to offer. After five months, however, this specific technology and what I sleep on and what I recommend currently and what I love and it's 100% non-toxic, doesn't off gas, anything, doesn't smell weird and is super healthy and clean that is available only for the next five months. Until that, basically, the company that just purchased it is going to take over and stop all of the specials and discounts that was arranged with the owner originally. Check it out, get it for yourself. They also have an amazing money back policy. Really, there's no risk, just do it, just jump in. I know they also have financing, so just don't let anything stop you. 

If you know that your sleep is affected by your mattress, if you're in pain when you wake up, if you wake up several times a night to roll over because your shoulder or your hip hurt or your back hurts, just get it and try it. If you don't like it, return it, get your money back. I have had such great results with this that I really, really swear by it and I would love to see all of you getting such a deep, restorative sleep. As with our guest, Dr. Wendie Trubow. We talk about it in today's episode. 

Thank you so much for being a listener. Thank you so much for sharing this podcast with those you care about. Continue to come back and learn and share. Share with your friends and family. Be sure to jump into the Facebook group, the Learn to Health Facebook group and also make sure you go to and join the newsletter. I send out newsletters when I'm talking about things that are really important, like if there's a huge special on something, or if I've published an article, or if there's something that we all need to know, like something to take action on that we all need to know. I make sure I keep you up to date. Have yourself a fantastic rest of your day. If you have any questions at all, please reach out to me. I'm here to help and here to support you. I'm also a health coach, so if you're ever looking to work with someone, I'm here to help. You can always find me by contacting me through Facebook or through my website, Enjoy today's episode. 

(10:40.11) Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health Podcast. I'm your host, Ashley James. This is Episode 510.

I am so excited for today's guest. We have back on the show, Dr. Wendie Trubow, and you can find the free, very exciting ebook that she's giving us by going to Dr. Trubow you were on the show in Episode 482, and now you're back, and we're gonna dive deeper into understanding how toxins and stress affect our hormones.

There's such a powerful need for us to focus on making sure we're being as toxin-free as possible, both from our outside world and the internal world that's going on inside us. We need to support our emunctory systems, our detox pathways, in order to maintain health in every system of our body and longevity and well into our old age to be as healthy as possible as long as possible. This is your mission and you're here for us today to dive deeper. So welcome back to the show.

(11:58.514) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Ashley, thank you so much. It's great to be here. Feel free to call me Wendie. You don't have to call me Dr. Trubow during the talk.

(12:05.650) Ashley James: Well, thank you, Wendie. Um, yeah, I'm really excited to dive in, uh, something we were talking about before we hit record, which is a question everyone has after listening to Episode 482, that the last episode that you were on and also listening to other episodes, great doctors are coming on, teaching us amazing things, opening our eyes. And then we're left after like a 90 minute interview going, where do I start? Where do I begin? 

I don't feel well. I'm not 100% healthy. I'm sick of the allopathic, drug-based, Western medical system that tells me to wait to get sick and then go to the doctor and get put on drug after drug after drug. That's not healthcare. That's disease management. That's symptom management. That's not actually correcting my body or helping me in any way. And I'm just getting worse and worse and worse and feeling sicker and sicker. So then they turn to Holistic Health podcast to see, well, what can I do? Because I'm just at my wit's end.

And all the doctors I've seen that are giving me drugs are making me feel worse, not better. This isn't help, this isn't restoring my body. They hear you talk and then they go, where do I start? What do I do? And I'd love to dive in. You have an amazing clinic. I know you've got sort of near Boston, right? You wanna tell us a little bit about your clinic for those local. Now you do telemedicine also. I don't know where to start and I just wanna see what Dr. Wendie.

(13:31.990) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Sure, so if you're at the point where you need to call the doctor, right? Like call the midwife. Interestingly, we were just parsing through the Massachusetts state laws the other day, it's really weird, if you live in Massachusetts you can establish care remotely if you live outside Massachusetts. You have to come in person to establish care. Now, that makes no sense to me because if you're remote you're remote. What difference does it make but technically we're not supposed to practice medicine across state lines. But if you establish care in Newton where our clinic is, then you can go back to having everything else be telemedicine. So it's a little goofy, but we're located in Massachusetts and we have an insurance-based medical functional medicine practice and it's a membership. So similar to joining your gym, except we're focused on how to get you to feel freaking amazing all the time. That's our goal.

(14:39.207) Ashley James: Nice, very cool. And your background, understanding gynecology and understanding women's hormone systems and understanding the body from the medical doctor's standpoint, but then you dove into studying functional medicine, and understanding how do we, instead of looking at what drug do I need to give this person, right? Cause that's a very MD approach. Let's find the problem and give it a drug.

Let's dive in and see what's going on in the body as a whole, and then help that body as a whole become healthier and healthier and healthier. And you uncover things that we didn't even know we had like leaky gut and mycotoxin exposure, right? So really, interesting things that have simple solutions once we figure out we have that problem, it's not simple when you're sitting there with brain fog and leaky gut going, why do I feel like crap every morning? But simple, once we can identify what it is and then move forward with making corrections. So someone could come, fly into Boston, then come to your clinic and see you in person to establish care and then have a beautiful vacation. Boston's gorgeous, especially in the summertime. Not so much in the winter, but  that's because I'm from the East Coast too.

I'm okay with not visiting snow in cities during winter. That's just my thing. But maybe you'd like it. Maybe it'd be beautiful to you. And then, you can go back home and continue to see Dr. Wendie and her team. So that's, that's one possibility. Another is Dr. Wendie, you've got a book coming out very next year. We're really excited about that. And you have a ton of information on your website, including the free book that you've given us at So lots of great information we can dive into. But where do we start? Let's talk to those listeners who are suffering, who have the brain fog, who have the hormone dysregulation, either it's sex hormones, stress hormones, or thyroid, and they're feeling like poop. But where do they start?

(16:51.889) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Yeah, I love this question, Ashley, because we really believe that most humans have the agency and the ability to get at least 60, 70, 80% of the way they are on their own. Like, you don't have to have me. But some people need me and some people don't. So let's talk to the people who are really self starters and wanna get things going and are like, okay, now what? So the really lovely thing is that functional medicine and our approach looks at that you're an entity unto yourself. So it's not like we're pulling off your thyroid and we're only dealing with your thyroid or we're addressing only your gut.

What's addressing one part of your body is going to address the other parts of your body because it's an ecosystem. So if you start to fix the ecosystem all of it gets better, right? The rising tide lifts all boats and so what you see is there are some foundational behaviors that are extremely impactful. Are they gonna get you a hundred percent of the way there? Probably not but on the other hand if you're teetering on the edge or if you're just a little bit dysfunctional it will go a long way. So let's dive into what those are. 

So you can't change your genes. So I'm gonna set that to the side. But what you can do is manage your thoughts because the way you think about things can serve as a toxin or a stressor. And so what you wanna focus on is that you manage your thoughts and you create thoughts. You have like 65,000 thoughts any given day. And most of them, when you're talking only to yourself, are really unkind. And those set off a cascade of stress hormones and gut dysfunction and liver dysfunction that then has you not absorbing your minerals in a state of sympathetic fight flight or freeze and not detoxing. So that's not ideal. We really wanna be in a parasympathetic state where the liver and gut and adrenals are balanced and you're able to deal with the toxins, including your hormones, because hormones can be a toxin, and then put them in your gut or your kidney, pee, poop or sweat them out and life goes on and it's a nice cycle.

So managing your thoughts so that you don't go down a stressful pathway is one critical thing to start with and it's free I'm really into like things that you have control over that are free. You might argue that you don't have control over your thoughts But I would say with practice you are able to change the way that you think to yourself, so I'll give an example, especially women but men can do it too when something doesn't go perfectly we have this habit of internalizing it, like, God, you're such a failure. God, such a screw up and there we go you messed up again you're never going to get it right obviously it didn't go right because you did it you know things that are just sort of generalizations about ourselves but honestly those things aren't true actually they're not intrinsically true. I can't knock on on that truth. I can knock on the table. I can't knock on that as a truth that doesn't hold up and yet we talk about it like it's true.

So starting to take those thoughts and convert them into ones that are kinder and actually more accurate. So instead of saying, oh, you're such a screw up, you could say something like, hmm, didn't go the way I hoped or I'm a work in progress or I worked really hard on that and that didn't go how I hoped it would. Or let me look and see what things I did that may have made that outcome not ideal so that I can not do them again in the future. These are all sort of openings as opposed to hammering you with what a failure you are. And the reason it makes a difference is the thoughts you have alter your adrenals. So let me pause there before we go into other stuff you can do. Comments, questions? 

(20:59.520) Ashley James: Yes, I love the focus on your thoughts and understanding that our mental body affects our physical body. Cause we think that our thoughts are innocent, right? That there's somehow separate from our body, but our unconscious mind is always listening to our thoughts and just based on our thoughts alone, we can trigger the autonomic nervous systems, fight or flight response just with our thoughts alone. You could hook yourself up to many machines that are measuring your stress response. And just by thinking about things you don't want, made up things you don't want to have happen in the future. We can see heart rate elevate, we can see blood pressure go up and your dilation of your eyes can change. And we can see all the indications that you're in a state of stress just by your thoughts alone, because your body is listening to your thoughts as if everything you're thinking about is happening right now. So if I'm like, I don't wanna miss my mortgage payment or I don't wanna get fired from my job or I don't wanna be homeless or whatever, I don't wanna be fat, I don't wanna be sick, I don't wanna be in pain, whatever it is that I don't want, your body cannot process a negative directly. So even if we think we're saying, well, I'm stating in a positive, I'm stating I don't want those things.

But like I could say to you, don't think of a red apple. Don't think of a green tree, right? Don't think of a blue sky. We're gonna think about, don't think of a green frog. We're gonna think about those things. So when I say I don't want, when we focus on when we don't wanna have happen, just like when we say negative things to ourselves, our body is perceiving those things as threats and going into a state of fight or flight. And so we're triggering this neurological response that turns off healing mechanisms. It's when we're in fight or flight, our body shunts resources towards immediate survival fighting and fleeing, and shunts resources away from digesting and creating healthy new tissue. And so the more we're in fight or flight, the less we're healing and restoring our body.

(23:14.691) Dr. Wendie Trubow:  Totally.

(23:16.297) Ashley James: Yeah, so I love that you're saying that number one, we have to check our stinkin' thinkin' and be more gracious and loving with ourself. Very early on, it might've been episode like 17 or 18 or 16, somewhere around there within the first twenty episodes of this show back seven years ago, I interviewed a mental health counselor that said, if you looked at your relationship you have with yourself, like the self-talk you have with yourself, as if it were two people talking, you'd call the cops on yourself.

We are so abusive to ourselves and we give it a free pass because we think it's not important, right? It's okay to talk to ourselves that way. But if we talked to other people the way we talk to ourselves, it would be perceived as incredibly abusive. So it's really good that way you're saying, just check in and you got to start treating yourself with that love and respect that you deserve. Because if you want your physical health to be healthy, you have to make sure that your mental self-talk is in alignment with your health goals. 

(24:18.357) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Totally. Train your brain.

Let's talk about the next thing you have control and agency over that nobody likes. Ready? Every human listening to this needs more sleep than they're getting. You knew it? The shoe dropped. Boom.

(24:41.2074) Ashley James: What is it? What is it? What is it about like ten-thirty at night when you know you should be in bed? It's just like, but I want to scroll. I want to have fun. I want to watch Netflix. Now it's time to do the dishes or something. No, no, no, no, no. Now's the time to be in bed. But what is it about needing that dopamine at night that is just it's so exciting?

The kids are asleep, it's late at night, now this is me time. How many moms have I heard who are sick and exhausted and have hormone problems? But it's like they won't go to bed earlier because that's their only me time, right? I had one client I asked her just switch it up instead, go to bed with when the kids go to bed and then wake up early and you'll still have your me time, but you'll have it in the morning for that and changed her entire life. She still had the same amount of me time but she was twice as productive and also felt amazing through the day.

(25:29.951) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Yeah, so I would say humans are pretty chronically underslept and the consequence of that is that you wouldn't fail to change the oil in your car or change the tires when they're bald or do upkeep on your car. You wouldn't ignore your car and expect it to perform optimally. And yet, getting less sleep than the body needs causes it to perform suboptimally. So I love that idea to go to sleep when the kids do, A. B, I'm a huge fan of get into a routine, right? So this is where no human is an island, because you're gonna need the buy-in of the people in your life. Like, I have teenagers, and they love to chat at ten o'clock at night. And I'm always like, I love chatting with my teenagers, because they're fun and they're funny, and I love connecting with them, and my oldest is going off to college, so it's particularly poignant that I only have, you know, another couple months of these interactions before she's out of the house. And yet, it doesn't work for me. Like, I need to go to bed at ten.

And so my husband is very on board with this. My teenagers, I do keep needing to say like, okay, how about you come up to the bathroom and you can chat with me while I get ready for bed instead of us chatting down in the basement, which then forty-five minutes goes by, right? That's one, get off the screens because not only are they messing, they're very addictive. And I believe that all of this causes us to want to eat more because it's all suggestive, it's riling us up.

And then even more than that, the blue light is messing with your melatonin, which means that your sleep quality is diminished. And so it's really important to establish a routine where you get off the screens by at least an hour before bed and then do things that you enjoy doing or restorative.

That doesn't include email, honestly. That does not include email. That does not include projects. That does not include working. It means you get off your screens and you start getting ready for bed. I take an hour to get ready for bed, partly because I futz around and then I go talk to my kids. And I'm not like concerted getting ready for bed. I'm distracted getting ready for bed. But essentially what happens physiologically around ten o'clock at night is that if you're not in bed and you're not on your way to bed, you get a second wind and you literally push out more cortisol from your adrenals.

So now your body's like, oh wait, wait no I'm awake, I don't need to go to sleep. Because your body thinks a lion's gonna eat ya. You just wanna look at Facebook or Instagram for a half hour, but it does have that impact of jacking up the system and having you release a second wind and then the challenge is you're not tired so you don't go to bed. So it's really important to block the light, get off the screens, have a routine and have buy-in from your partner so that they can get off the screens it's time for bed right, you have support.

(28:40.240) Ashley James: We have this go back and forth with my husband. Cause I'll be like why did you let us stay up so late? He's like, I'm taking your cue. He's like excited. He's fine with staying up late, but cause I'm the one that always has to go, okay, it's ten o'clock, we're getting in bed. Let's go. Come on. But if I don't, if I lose track of time, then he's like, oh good. I'm getting away with staying up late. And I feel like, why is it sometimes having a husband's like having a teenager? I tease him. He's very responsible about many things. Me too.  I'll catch myself be like, how is it twelve thirty at night? I'm supposed to be in bed hours ago. Same with my eight year old.

(29:19.786) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Right, well you got your second wind.

(29:21.122) Ashley James: Exactly. Am I eight year old? I mean, I want to know when second wind happens for kids because that kid man, you have to start dinner at like between five and six and then bedtime has to start at seven for him to be asleep by ten. The entire evening is trying to get that kid to go to sleep. And it's just because he has energy. I don't feed him any sugar. He's incredibly healthy. He's physically active for at least half the day. He's a very healthy kid. But this kid does not shut off. Right. He have that, I'm kind of getting tired, so I have to like make it be this whole routine where it's like, okay, now we're winding down and now we're reading a book. Now we're, you know, getting in bed and cuddling and now we're reading a book and we're, you know, making sure all the lights are off. So it's just this big rigamarole to get him to sleep. And I'm just wondering, like, when does that happen? Is that more like for teenagers? Because kids don't seem like they ever turn off. But for me, I can feel that second wind. It's right around 10:30 like clockwork, if I'm awake at 10:30, I'm gonna be awake till twelve thirty or one because I got that extra boost of cortisol. I'll be tired at nine. My body will be like, oh wow, I could totally go to sleep now. But then if I'm awake at ten thirty, I could definitely, pull half an all nighter at least. 

(30:40.711) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Time to party. So here's the problem, Ashley. Humans, it's so funny that I would say this was the best positive impact from COVID, which was that, we have all these children, they go to all these activities, and we have all these carpools. And in COVID, we didn't have any of that. And I ended up getting approximately nine hours in bed every night because I didn't have to get up until later because I didn't have to drive any carpools. They were at school, at home for school. And my office is eight minutes away from my house. That includes walking in and walking out. So it's super close. And so I ended up getting about nine hours a night. I used to be proud, I get seven hours of sleep. Okay, I got seven hours in bed. So if you're listening to this, you need more sleep than you're getting. Seven hours in bed translates to approximately six and a quarter or six and a half hours of sleep. It's not enough time for you to hit the deep and the REM and the true restorative time in which the cells in your brain and the rest of your body get smaller so that the interstitial space drains so that your toxins drain into the glymph and the lymph so you get them out of your body instead of hanging out in your in the fatty tissue of your brain and your organs and your bones. You need that time. So aim for at least eight hours in bed with the lights off. That does not like in bed reading. No, it's in bed with the lights off where you're trying to sleep because you inevitably have awake times. You're not a hundred percent efficient. So every human needs more sleep and you have control over that. You need to get in bed by ten and knock it up till six, or nine, to five, whatever. 

(32:27.223) Ashley James: Love it. You just explained how our brain detoxes. And I've seen the studies that when people are chronically sleep deprived, so let's say getting six hours of sleep a night, or like you said, they're in bed for seven, but they're actually getting six or maybe six and a quarter. They're not going into the deep sleep. Or people who sleep with like dogs on their bed or noise outside, or they don't have the kind of curtains that can block the light. So their sleep becomes disrupted, they don't get the deep sleep. Their brain does not detox and we see in the studies that it accumulates these weird proteins and that they're seeing it, there's a relationship between that and dementia. That we need to let the brain detox drain, that it's like at the end of the night, you put all the dishes in the dishwasher and you turn it on. Well, what would happen if you forgot to hit the start button on the dishwasher. You come downstairs, there's no dishes. All the dishes are still dirty. And, but we do that every single day. That is our brain, right? You didn't hit the start button and let your body wash the brain and detox it by not getting enough sleep.

And another thing you said is really important is that the screens in the blue light before bed decreases melatonin production. And what they're seeing now in studies is that melatonin is even more important than all the other antioxidants the body makes, that melatonin is a master antioxidant that's helping our body prevent major disease. For a long time we thought it was just helping our sleep cues, helping our circadian rhythm. It actually is incredibly healthy for decreasing inflammation.

They've done studies around breast cancer and seeing that melatonin production and breast cancer lowers inflammatory breast cancer. And I'm sure you'd have even more information on that, but just maybe that you could share. But melatonin is incredibly important and we have to guard our protection of it very closely. What are some natural ways that we can increase melatonin production, like tart cherry juice is one way we can support it. I know you've talked about like blue blocking glasses or just getting off the screen. So are there any other ways that we can help increase healthy melatonin production?

(34:51.004) Dr. Wendie Trubow: I want to look at it how to preserve your melatonin. So the melatonin starts to increase right around, four or five o'clock in the afternoon. Your melatonin actually does start to increase. I always think about it naturally increases and so what we want to try to do is not diminish it. So for example if you wake up in the middle of the night and you have to use the bathroom or you're awake whatever don't turn the lights on because the light makes the melatonin goes away, right? So keep the lights off

Get off the screens. Wear blue light blocking glasses. Start to dim the lights because it signals the body oh yeah right the melatonin is higher I should be going to bed and the tart cherry juice is fantastic. We actually increase melatonin intake for people who have had any type of infection or particularly if they had COVID because melatonin is such a powerful antioxidant  So increasing it in times of major stressors for the body is fantastic, and then you can start to wean down after the big pump, big pump.

(36:00.899) Ashley James: When you say increase, you're talking about taking an exogenous melatonin?

(36:05.481) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Yes, yes.

(36:05.887) Ashley James: So what you're saying is not something you want to get on habitually for years and years, but is that even safe? Can we talk about that?

(36:14.700) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Yeah, sure. So it's interesting. It doesn't look like you'll necessarily suppress your melatonin unless you're doing the things that suppress it, like being on screens, being up, staying up. Chronic illness will suppress it, but just taking melatonin doesn't look like it in the short term will suppress it.

And there's a million forms, actually, that's really challenging. So you can take natural forms derived from the high melatonin-containing foods. I know there's a liquid, it's a much smaller dose because it's much more concentrated. And then there's also pill forms that you can take. So it kind of depends what, quote unquote, scene you're in and what you're looking for and whether you feel strongly that it come from food or not. So it's all over the map.

(37:04.224) Ashley James: What do you prefer for your patients and clients?

(37:07.900) Dr. Wendie Trubow: We tend to do the pills actually because it's, we have a very varied practice. And so we often do the, like a three milligram sustained release melatonin. And then anyone who's going through massive infection or some type of major immune challenge, we will increase them. Depends on the person. So I don't wanna give a number, but we'll increase them to higher numbers.

(37:37.636) Ashley James: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Got it. And I've taken it and anything above three milligrams, like I'm not sleeping, like I'm sleeping, but it's like that weird lucid sleep where you feel like you've been awake all night and then I'm groggy all day. So there's a certain dose that can feel like you're drugged all day and then no matter what, you can't shake that feeling that you're groggy and you're asleep.

(38:01.161) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Yeah, and actually one of the solutions for that is to take it much earlier because the melatonin in our bodies is increasing around 4 to 5 p.m. And so instead of taking it at bedtime back it up by hours and take it. Well, we're recording it, you might not be listening at four in the afternoon but we're recording it four in the afternoon and that's actually when you want to take your melatonin to not only improve your sleep, but alleviate that groggy feeling.

(38:27.339)Ashley James: Oh wow, very interesting. Very interesting.

(38:29.751) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Alright, so that's the sleep. And we've only gotten two, there's a whole bunch more. Things that you can do on your own. So the next thing to do is really have an authentic conversation with yourself about your food. Because food is medicine and you are what you eat. So it's very difficult to be optimally healthy and feel freaking amazing when you eat inflammatory food that challenges the body. Because don't forget, even the best of intentioned humans who have a very quote unquote clean lifestyle, no matter what you do, you are still being exposed to a waterfall of toxins every day. Just look around. If you have a rug, unless it's wool,

you're getting exposed to some type of plastic. Your mouse, your computer, your phone, plastic and metal. The air you breathe can have various chemicals. The water you're drinking also chemicals. The food you're eating pesticides, herbicides, insecticides. So it's really important because you eat every day and you eat three to six times a day depending on who you are that you level up your food. Now perfection is the enemy of good and better. Okay you don't have to be perfect.

Really, I want to stop and repeat that. You do not have to be perfect. You have to be better. Okay? So start where you are and level up. Think of food as a spectrum as opposed to a destination.

Right, like I've been in this game for 17 years and I still practice leveling up. And I still sometimes go, oh wow, that really snuck in and I don't wanna eat that way. Right, I have three teenagers and one pre-teen. You know, they're not like, hey, cook me up some hummus. They're like, let's make popcorn and let's have ice cream. And I'm like, I don't eat ice cream. I don't like, I actually never liked ice cream, even as a kid. I know that's like not American, but I don't like ice cream.

And probably because I had a dairy allergy as a kid and now I just don't like it and I don't eat sugar. Or I work hard not to eat sugar. So anyway, to have a good honest look at your food. Basically the goal is that you eat food that looks like itself and that's minimally processed and you can recognize. Now a lot of people will say to me, I made pancakes myself and I'm like, no, no, no, that's still kind of processed, right? Because you had to grind the flour. So there are a few ways that you can do it that are better, right, if you did eggs, you did a pancake with egg and banana. That's way better than taking flour and grinding it and then making it into a pancake. So I would say grain-free does, it is a higher level. So it's an improvement. But really look to what are the ways that you can make an improvement that are sustainable.

It's not about dieting, right? This isn't a temporary thing that you're gonna do for three weeks, get your beach body on and then you're gonna go back to it. No, this is like, how are you gonna eat to promote lifelong vitality? Because that's very different than eating for a diet. It's not a diet, it's lifelong vitality  It's different, right? It's like Michael Pollan's, Forks Over Knives. Fill your plate with cruciferous and green leafy vegetables. Eat some protein of your choice, whether that's vegan, beans and lentils or whether that's actually animal flesh and if it is animal flesh, make sure it's grass-fed, grass-finished. Chickens really aren't meant to be fed on grains. It increases their omega-6 content. And so, look to where you're getting your chickens from, see if you can, or your chicken meat, see if you can upgrade. It's very challenging and it's expensive. So you know, pick a battle that works in your family. You can get frozen vegetables, organic. They're much less expensive, but do your best to level up and do your best to minimize alcohol and do your best to cut down your sugar. If you did that you'd be like wow, I really did great work is it perfect? No, but remember we talked about you don't have to be perfect you just have to be better.

(42:50.424) Ashley James: I love that you say level up because I come from many years of playing video games in my youth and like level up, Super Mario, get that mushroom level up. And just thinking make it a game, make it fun, right? How can I level this meal, right? For next time how can thinking about making dinner, what can I do to level up my dinner? The other day, we went to the beach and we live really close to the Puget Sound. I grew up on the East coast, live on the West coast now. And so we just went, we're a few blocks away from the Puget Sound, went down to the beach and I cooked a bunch of food, put it in glass container Tupperware and brought it down and shared it with all my other friends. And as we're all eating, they're looking at, it's oil-free stir fry of vegetables, mushrooms and over brown rice with some seasoning.

And they're loving it and they're like, whoa. And they look at me and one of them says, so do you cook with frozen food or is this like fresh? And how do you do this? How do you get all these vegetables in? And I said, listen, my thing is good, better, best, right? So good might be canned beans or some kind of canned vegetable, right? Better is frozen, best is fresh and pick one and try to upgrade, right? So at least you're getting, if you had no vegetables in you and a can of vegetables comes along, at least you're getting some vegetables. I'd prefer fresh, obviously, but there's times when I stock up the freezer with organic vegetables just because there's times when I don't have the time to chop up, but I also am committed to not eating out. I'm committed to 100% of my meals being home cooked. I'll take them with me as I go out, but I'm committed to never eating at restaurants because that has caused a lot of my health issues. And even if I'm choosing healthy things at restaurants, it's still the lowest quality ingredients. They're not organic. They're using omega rich vegetable oils that are just are very pro-inflammatory. And I just don't wanna feed myself that. It's fun and my addiction brain wants it, wants to just like my addiction brain would love to go to a casino and gamble, or would love to stay up all night watching Netflix or just name some kind of a dopamine rich activity. There's no dopamine rich activities that are overstimulating the dopamine that are healthy, right? I look at my longterm goals and that takes patience and emotional intelligence and it takes putting aside the dopamine for now for the dopamine later for that. So I'm like, I'm gonna eat home cooked meals and I'm gonna choose frozen or fresh as much as possible. I get vegetables in and then I get to have that reward later on down the road. And every day I feel slowly better, better, better, better. So just look at the plate and go, level up. Like you said, good, better, best. How can I make this better? How can I make a better choice and know that whatever you put in your mouth is feeding every cell in your body. So, you know, if you're eating Chick-fillet, or McDonald's, hold that in your hand, in your mind, imagine it, and go, do I wanna feed these ingredients to every cell in my body, those cells that are keeping cancer at bay and reproducing to become healthy cells? Is this gonna actually make healthy cells or is this gonna make me feel miserable? Temporarily, you'll feel good for 15 minutes, probably less five minutes it takes about five minutes to eat a hamburger. And then that's days of the body having to deal with the effects of all the toxins and inflammation from that food.

(46:46.987) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Yeah, it's funny because I have celiac disease, which is the autoimmune end of the road for an allergy reaction to gluten, which is the wheat. It's what we make our bread with. And so I don't generally eat out because I'm often very reactive to the cross contamination. But I've noticed, it's so interesting you talk about the quality of the oils, because I've noticed that when I eat out, it's like once a quarter, right? We're talking about four times a year that I'll eat out. And I really focus on trying to stay close to the way I eat at home because I find that when I not only eat out but eat food that I wouldn't normally eat, I'm inevitably sick. I'm like, oh, that wasn't worth it. That was not worth it. So it's really important, you know, if you're going to eat out, choose foods that you would normally choose at home, right? So don't go whole hog. Go, go half hog.

And the next thing I would say is, it's really important. And these are all things that you have control over, right? Chew your food. My family has not yet taken this on. I took this on about a year ago after I was reading about, if you think about food, the average human chews a mouthful three times and then swallows. However, if you have food, it then needs to be broken down and digested and the minerals and nutrients absorbed.

And the more times you grind it or chew it, the better the surface area that your body will have to work on. And the greater the surface area, the more likelihood you'll be able to break it down, then the easier you'll be able to break it down. So you wanna chew your food 20 times, 30 times? Like chew it until it's, you just can't chew it anymore. And my family always teases me because I'm literally the last one at the table chewing. They're all done, they're done. They're like, bye, ma. I'm like, guys, I'm still eating. Because when you're joking about five minutes to eat a hamburger, I'm like, oh, it probably takes me 10 now, because every mouthful takes so long, right? So when you're eating, and this kind of morphs into the next thing that you have control over, which is manage your stress. And why that relates to food is that when you eat, you want to be in a state of parasympathetic activation. So before you eat, take a few deep breaths, signal the body that a lion is not about to eat you, chew your food, breathe while you're eating, connect with people while you're eating. Now that's not the only way to manage your stress, but it's one thing that really is very glaring is when you're looking at your health, if you are in a state of sympathetic activation, as we mentioned, you're not going to absorb your food because digestion gets shut down. So you want to see the body okay. Alright guys, get ready. It's time to get the stuff that makes you feel good. Right? But be conscious about it. That's one and then the other side of that is that you want to manage your stress every day not just around food but manage your stress so that you tilt the scales. Tilt the seesaw towards rest relaxation parasympathetic digestion absorption recovery as opposed to tilting it towards inflammation sympathetic overload and ultimately disease, because the body the body gets shut down and you don't go down the pathways of normal healthy behavior and what you wind up with is autoimmune disease, chronic disease, diabetes, hypertension, obesity, you name it and I'm gonna say okay attracts back to inflammation and toxins so you really want to manage your stress and that's either getting out and moving your body or meditation or walking meditation or Tai Chi whatever it is that for you is that thing you want to do it.

(50:51.601) Ashley James: Inflammation, I keep hearing people say, oh, inflammation is the cause of disease. I can't think of a disease inflammation isn't present in or at one point was present, but it's not the cause. It's definitely an accelerant and it is present, right? But our behaviors and our way we eat and the way we manage stress, the way we sleep, all these things go into whether we're increasing inflammation or increasing inflammation or helping the body regulate it healthfully. Decrease inflammation and then keep it in within homeostasis, right? Keep it in a healthy healthy levels. There's a naturopathic physician that was the Dean of Bastyr. I've had her on the show, amazing woman, Dr. Molly Niedermeier. She was my naturopath with my son when I was pregnant and was our pediatrician.

She had this saying, she'd go, Do you have sock syndrome? And I'm, what are you talking about? She goes, do you eat over the kitchen sink? She had this abbreviation. Where do you eat your meal? Cause she could catch her patients, most of them, if they're female of a certain age or managing the family, they're doing the cooking, they'd be sitting there and their meal is standing up over the kitchen sink or over the stove. Just that's where they're eating their meal or just standing in the kitchen.

They don't even sit down with the family because they're busy cooking the food and then feeding the kids and then, getting the laundry done and watching the kids and making sure they eat. And then they're just standing there, shoveling a few mouthfuls of food in their mouth over the kitchen sink before they go off to soccer practice or whatever. And she's, no, you actually have to sit down and turn off the stress response and chew your food and calm down. You do need to carve out time for yourself. You can't just sit, stand over the kitchen sink and eat your meals. And that was a big eye-opener for me, this concept that there's women who don't actually have any meals sitting down because they're so busy managing everyone else that they never think that in order to digest, they need to sit down, breathe and chew their food. And that just amazes me that we take for granted how our body functions and how to help our body function optimally because we're navigating and we're kind of the cruise directors of all these little people in our life. And for me, it's like the cruise director of my whole family, and my business. And I run a giant organization of 500 mom organization of local homeschoolers. So it's like I'm organizing and being this cruise director for everyone else. It's, no, I need to prioritize sitting down, digesting, taking care of myself. You are important. I can only speak for what it is to be a woman. I don't know what it is for man but I do see my husband sitting down and eating. So I think maybe men sit down and eat more than women, but based on my experience.

(53:56.497) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Well, it's more about ownership. And I think the thing that I would say that I think is really powerful for all the women listening, and the men actually. So if you're the female, if you're the person who's responsible for this and you're eating while standing, this is what you're demonstrating. This is the role modeling you are doing. So what you're teaching your children is when you're a parent, don't take care of yourself.

So it's very important to model healthy behaviors around food because children really don't understand what to do unless they see it, right? So they learn to chew their food from you. They learn to sit and have civilized conversation at the dinner table. I mean, I have to acknowledge, I always get up during dinner, almost always. And I noticed that I sit closer to the kitchen and my husband sits as far away from the kitchen as he can get pretty much and so there's something to the seating and the responsibility but especially even if you're the man listening to this, if your partners in your life are doing this, you're role modeling for these kids and you're also not connecting. So there's tremendous value to being at the table connecting. And gosh, it's funny you say that Ashley, because I remember saying to a patient, wait what, you don't eat with your kids? She was home with her kids. In my family, what happens is we make lunch. We make lunch and we sit down and eat it together. I don't make it for them and then they eat while I'm cooking. That's ridiculous. Like that doesn't even make any sense to me. You know, you need part of the value of meals is connecting. And so it's really important to stop, make enough food for yourself and for them and sit down. If you've got to get up four times, I get it, because I get up too. But do your best, right? Better? Do your better.

(45:20.2) Ashley James: Yep. Good, better, best. Got to pick. Yep. Do, do your better and eventually you're going to be doing your best. Choose to level up. Choose an activity and do it. There's a million things we could do better. Don't feel like a failure, like you're doing it all wrong. Just choose one thing, baby steps, right? Like I committed to not eating out at restaurants. And I put a counter on a little app that counts the days since I've been at a restaurant. I found a Sobriety App, because I was like, what kind of app would just count days? Like super simple. I just don't want to have to like every time look at the calendar and be like, okay, it's been how many weeks? I just want something I can like log into it and it tell me how many days since. You can have maybe an accident app, like how many days since an accident? Or for me, I found a Sobriety App. So I'm counting the days since I've been at a restaurant or eating restaurant food and thus how many days I've been eating straight without any breaks. And I love it. So it's like this one health thing I can do for myself because there's a million things I can do for myself. This one thing, I chose one thing and I'm like, this is what I'm focusing on right now in this part of this year in my life is how many days can I go by eating 100% home cooked meals? And then it's like for me, good, better, best. It's like if I have to grab a can of food, I will. If I have to grab a frozen bag, I will. As long as it's whole food ingredients that I'm making from scratch. And it has been wonderful. I am so proud of myself and I feel so good. And the biggest thing was just committing. The biggest thing was just doing it. And then being okay with really simple meals, being okay with, okay, we're having potatoes for dinner. And then I'm gonna steam some broccoli because that's all I have the mental capacity for. That's fine, we all filled up on delicious potatoes and steamed broccoli. And then when I have more of a brain for it, I make bigger productions. I made this amazing salad that was like knock your socks off salad. And I'll recreate these delicious meals when I have more time, but sometimes just keeping it simple. Grabbing a smoothie. That's another thing I want to ask you about. So there's a lot of controversy around smoothies about making whole food smoothies. Cause like, oh, well you should be chewing your food. You shouldn't be drinking it. I'm like, I get it. But the good, better, best model allows for room for making a smoothie. As long as it's not a bunch of like potions and stuff. Like it's, you know, some people choose to do that. And that's, that's okay. But like, let's just take a bunch of real food and juice it or put it in a smoothie because it's fast. It helps break up the fiber a bit and then you're drinking it, so you're getting it in you. The best would be if you could sit down and chew everything, but what are your thoughts on making whole food smoothies?

(58:43.152) Dr. Wendie Trubow: I mean honestly Ashley, I feel like I don't really see a difference between the machine chewing it and me chewing it. It's chewed. I don't really care.

(58:52.898) Ashley James: Yeah, right. The mastication kickstart the digestion, right? So like, we do start digesting in our mouth and that kind of get kind of primes the pump gets the whole digestive system going. So if you could maybe make a chewing motion while you're also drinking your smoothie, you could just say, hey body, but you know people will inhale a burger and chew each bite once and we somehow manage to digest that. So I think we could streak a smoothie, get the nutrients from it because it's a good, better, best model. If you don't have time to cook, you definitely have time to blend something.

(59:29.606) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Yeah, 100%. I literally no problem with smoothies. I think I have them myself all the time, actually. My favorite is a blueberry arugula combo, which I know sounds weird. I actually like the sort of bitterness of the arugula. I like it. Obviously the oddball in my family, but I love it.

(59:53.684) Ashley James: We're twins, no, we're totally twins. So  what do you do? Water? Do you like almond milk? Like how do you make it? Tell us your smoothie recipe.

(1:00:02.556) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Yeah, so I actually do a blend. So I do a protein powder that's designed to support the liver. It gives the liver lots of minerals and nutrients. Remember, there's a test in Episode 482. Did I talk about my terrible genetics? So I have the worst genetics and the celiac layer means that I'm a terrible absorber. So a normal person might take two supplements, but because I'm a terrible absorber and I had this sort of hit for so many years, I take a lot of supplements because otherwise I drift too low in my mineral nutrient status. So I do a protein powder that has all these minerals and nutrients that support phase one and phase two in my liver. It's so yummy, Ashley. Okay. I add frozen blueberries, organic. I add baby fresh organic arugula leaves. I add cinnamon, I add cacao nibs, I add a powder that has glutamine in it. It's all designed to support gut function. And I add an extra boost of minerals and nutrients. And then I add water because I don't like it too sweet. I don't personally drink almond milk or oat milk because the oats are not 100% dedicated gluten free so I don't want to react. So I don't need almonds or almond milk or any almond products basically. So I just add water and then blend the daylights out of it and drink it.  It's cold.

(1:01:35.088) Ashley James: There's like rice milk, soy milk, cashew milk, macadamia.

(1:01:38.367) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Yeah, I used to do soy milk. It's just too sweet for me. It's too sweet. I don't like this. So I either had to choose the soy milk or the blueberries and I would rather have the blueberries than the soy milk because I just didn't like the flavor. It was like, I don't know, it felt like ice cream. And remember, I don't like ice creams. I didn't want to drink that.

(1:01:55.855) Ashley James: So someone who wants it to be sweet, they could choose a plant milk. Out of all the plant milks in the world, I would say never do oat milk because of gliadin, a protein similar to gluten. It's just also as humans we're not really meant to eat grains. 

(1:02:13.475) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Yeah, yeah, I don't do well with oats. I don't eat them because I don't do well with them. And I'm sure it's from the gliadin particle.

(1:02:20.757) Ashley James: Right, right. So I love it. I love it, yeah. Water, and then if someone wanted it sweeter, they could add a banana. Here's a fun thing. You probably know this, but some people might not. Get green bananas. Get the bananas when they're green. Chop them up with the skin on. Leave the peel on. Make sure they're organic and rinse them really well, and then chop them up, put them in a bag, and put them in the freezer. And you can blend. You have to have like a high-power blender, like a Vitamix. You can blend with the peel. You will not taste the peel. And that has a good prebiotic, you're feeding your good gut bugs.

(1:02:59.062) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Mm-hmm. That's such a great idea. I love that.

(1:03:01.452) Ashley James: Right? It thickens it up also and it doesn't make it too sweet because it's not ripe ripe. But it gives you some sweetness. So I was surprised. I was really surprised. My family was looking at me like I've three eyes. I'm taking the bananas, just putting them straight in the blender. And they're like, you didn't peel it. I was like, I know it's great. And you can't taste it. 

(1:03)21.611) Dr. Wendie Trubow: I gotta try that. A green banana, yes? Okay, I'll try that. I'll try that this weekend.

(1:03:28.250) Ashley James: You can blend it without freezing it. It's really hard to make smoothies with green bananas because the next day they're not green anymore. You've gotta get them when they're green. And that's why I like chopping them up. Another thing about buying green. So I go to Costco, I get some of my organic food from Costco, like the frozen blueberries. Actually my husband is a blueberry sommelier. He sampled all the blueberries. He's a huge blueberry eater.

And the best frozen organic blueberries are from Costco. 

(1:04:00.458) Dr. Wendie Trubow: They smell the best, actually. I've noticed that they smell fantastic.

(1:04:03.950) Ashley James: They do. They do, they're really fresh, they're juicy, they're great. Traditional Chinese Medicine says don't do this, but we'll eat them frozen like dessert. We'll just eat them like frozen. I get the frozen blueberries from there. I get the big bag of power greens that are organic. The thing is these are not grown in the ground, so there's not a lot of minerals. Like you can't say, oh, I'm get a bag of spinach because I want iron. Like all these things are grown hydroponically in the absence of nutrition. Green is good. The pigment itself is good. But anything grown hydroponically, if they're not adding minerals to the water, you're not getting it.

So that's the problem. We can accidentally get vitamins. We can bump into vitamins if you're eating fruits and vegetables, but it's really hard to bump into all 60 minerals that our body needs every day. So supplementing is a big deal. But I'll get the greens. And if I know I'm not gonna be consuming that in the next five days, 'cause  like all of a sudden you open your fridge and all the greens are bad cause you forgot about them. I blend them and put them in ice cube trays and freeze it. So this is my good, better, best thing, right? Like, as best as fresh. But I can take all the greens and then I can take a bunch of these trays and freeze it all and then put it in a freezer bag. And then I've got, on the go, I've already made my frozen greens. They're ready. I can grab a few of those ice cubes. I can grab some frozen blueberries and put some water and like you said, cacao nib, cinnamon, glutamate. And did you say glutamate or glutamine?

(1:05:48.181) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Glutamine, yep.

(1:05)49.257) Ashley James: I'm sorry, glutamine, very different. And whatever other, turmeric, you could put whatever other kind of good herbs and things like that in there. And then blend it, add water and blend. So yeah, I like smoothies if you're like, I really wanna eat healthy, but I have no time, or I don't know how to cook. I'm like, well, everyone knows how to hit the blender, so.

(1:06:11.599) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Yeah, I got a portable blender for when I travel or, you know, I go to conferences and present. So I actually got a blender. It's a pound and a half. It's the booger now I'm blanking on. It's a pound and a half blend jet and it's super light and cute. So I use that. No, it was heavy.

(1:06:28.368) Ashley James: So not the NutriBullet?

(1:06:30.044) Dr. Wendie Trubow: No. It was heavy. It was heavy for travel. It's not heavy for kind of being around, but it was too heavy for the travel.

(1:06:39.970) Ashley James: Oh yeah, it is kind of heavy, isn't it? And you find it does the job. Cool. Thanks for that. That's so great. Awesome. All right. Well, we definitely talked about foods. What is what's the next thing we got to examine?

(1:06:50.453) Dr. Wendie Trubow: I'm sorry I didn't just list them out, right? But the next thing you have control and agency over is your movement.

So when you look at detoxification, and by the way, we go over all this in the book too. Like the book really is a roadmap. Dirty Girl, Ditch the Toxins Look Great and Feel Freaking Amazing. It's a roadmap for how do you walk through and start taking control of all these things. So the movement, right? So you wanna sweat, sweating's good.

I can't tell you how many people walk in my office and sit down and I'm like, so do you move your body? And I'm like, yeah, I never sweat, though. And I'm like, oh man, I can already tell you you're a bad detoxor because you're not sweating. So sweating's good, and and if you're smelly, it means you're getting rid of your toxins. Have at it. So you need to move your body regularly and you need to be sweaty. Now there's a nuance here because for optimal health and what I'll call peak health, feeling freaking amazing, you need to both do cardio which will make you sweat and helps burn calories but you also need to do weights, which will build your muscle, improve your sugar, the level of the glucose, because there's more muscle to uptake the glucose. It'll protect your bones. So you need a blend. It's not like, oh, I do one or the other. You really do need a blend of building muscle and training the heart to be resilient. But you need to move your body, because if you're not sweating, you're not detoxing. And it's really important to sweat. Your skin is your largest detox organ. So it's crtiical.

(1:08:31.825) Ashley James: Yes, I've talked about this in the past on the show, but for many years, every time I went to lose weight, I would become incredibly sick. It was laughable. It was to the point where it was like, am I self-sabotaging? Do I have a demonic possession? Like, what is going on? Like every time I go to lose weight, I'd feel burning around my eyes. I'd get like a sore throat. I'd have all the flu symptoms. You know the feeling around your head, like I'm about to get a head cold. And then my body would smell like garbage and sorry to be so graphic, but number two, when I went to the bathroom, I could smell burning rubber and I could taste heavy metals in my mouth, especially in the morning when I'd wake up, it was like an ashtray was in my mouth. And that was every time I lost more than 25 pounds quickly, right? This was a long time ago back when I did not know all the cool stuff I know now, but back in my 20s I would like I'm gonna do the Atkins diet. This is before ketogenic was the thing. I'm gonna do Atkins or I'm gonna do the South Beach or whatever. I mean, I do the zone, I've done over 30 diets. Right around the between 20 and 25 pounds, this sickness would kick in and it would get worse and worse and worse and worse until I had to stop dieting. It didn't matter what diet. I did vegan I did raw foods I every everything but if it was fast weight loss, I'd get really sick and it wasn't until I started doing my interviews. I don't know which episode it was exactly but somewhere in the first two years of doing this show because I'd reversed type 2 diabetes chronic adrenal fatigue chronic infections infertility and PCOS. I'd reversed all those things but I still had this problem. I'm like, what is going on? And then it hit me. I'm like, I don't detox and I don't sweat. I didn't sweat when I worked out. I don't detox and I have a heavy metal problem. And my liver would get inflamed. That's another thing. My liver would get all stupid inflamed and it would like stick out. Like you could actually like push on it and see it. It was like pushing out. And I got an ultrasound. My doctor wanted me to do a biopsy. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. The ultrasound said, it's not fatty liver. It's not cirrhosed. It's just angry and inflamed and my lab work showed it too. What is going on? And then it clicked. I need to focus on heavy metal detox. So I got a sunlight and sauna. I ended up doing a lot of research on saunas. I interviewed Connie Zach, the co-founder of Sunlighten. I got a Sunlighten sauna. I sweat every single day. And then I did just everything you could possibly imagine holistically to support getting rid of heavy metals.

And now when I go to the gym, I cannot believe how much I sweat and I feel amazing. I've been doing a heavy metal detox and supporting my emunctory system for several years now. And now I sweat. And so when you say, if you don't sweat, you're a bad detoxer, yeah, and you're probably toxic like I was. And we've got to support the emunctory. Like if you don't sweat, you need to sweat. Like we need to get you in the sauna and get you fully nutralized and clean up your diet, and there's lots of things we can do, but that means that's a good indicator that there's something wrong. We've got to help your body break a sweat so you can get rid of those toxins. So  it is so important. It's so, so important. So moving your body. So for people who are like, I can't do the gym. What do you say? Like just go for a walk, find something you love to do. Like how do you help people or I'm too busy. I'm too busy. I have four kids and a career, whatever, like people are too busy. How do you help them move their body?

(1:12:25.994) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Look, I'm hemming and hawing because I get it. Look, I have four kids and a husband. You know, we were talking about, it's like your fifth kid or your fifth something. So there's a lot of people, my mother-in-law's local, my mom is local. I have two brothers who are local. Like, we have a lot of family. We have four businesses. We're starting another one. Like, there's a lot pulling on us. And really, from the bottom of my heart, get it. When people say I feel really pulled in a lot of directions. I'm like, hey sister, I feel you. So I'll offer a couple things one, I've dedicated my life to making a profound impact on the people around me and helping people transform their health and feel freaking amazing and so there is zero integrity in touting it for others, but not doing it for myself. And so, one of the things that I really started to look at is, okay, how can I carve it in? So one thing I literally did was I put it in my schedule. Right? Because other people have control in my schedule. They can book me, they can decide I'm going somewhere, but if I'm booked, they won't do that. So all they see is that I'm available or not available. So I actually put time to work out in my schedule so that nobody can essentially hijack the time for me to sweat.

And then I literally just did this this morning. So I had an hour blocked to move my body this morning. However, I had a podcast literally scheduled at the end of that block, which means I can't go for an hour, especially because I did my face, but I had to do my makeup. And so I was like driving to my office going, okay, do I go for a walk? Do I not go for a walk? And I remembered, I read this study that everything is better than nothing. So if you can do 10 minutes of exercise, it's better than nothing.

And so this is what the conversation I'm having with myself today. So I was like, okay, self, you're going to go park in the parking lot. You're going to go for a walk. I have 15 minutes for travel. I have a half hour for a walk. I have 15 minutes for travel. This is like, I'm down to the minute, right? It's literally that sort of regimented. Today, I had not that. I had a half hour for everything, including the travel, so I was like, okay, I'm going to go for a walk.

So I went for the fastest walk I could around the office park where I work. And then I drove across the street and went into my office. And so what I'll say to people is there's lots of opportunities to move your body that you might not even think about. Like park farther away in the parking lot. Always use the stairs. Go for a walk at lunch. If you say to me, I have too much work, my response, is your employer is not gonna pay your medical bills, so set some boundaries and go for a walk. Because, if you literally can't go for a walk, you need a new job. 

(1:15:48.213) Ashley James: Yeah, we need to take a page out of the Zennials. Is it the Generation Z? They want like a four hour work week. I'm like, you know what? They're onto something. They're okay with telling their boss. I'm generalizing an entire generation. I'm sure not all individuals, but comparing it to, for example, to the other generations, right, so let's say, the baby boomers. Man, I watched my parents, they both owned their own businesses. My dad had his own business, my mom had hers, and they both worked themselves into early graves. My mom, she exercised like crazy, but she never turned off the stress response. She was go, go, go, go, go, and she died at 55. And she was the healthiest person I knew. That was a big wake-up call. And my dad died six years later. 

The only time they took a break was Christmas or one week during the summer. But even then, my mom would bring work with her. My dad would still be on the phone. They never shut off. Now they love their work and this is what it takes to own a business, right? What is the saying? I work a hundred hours a week, so I have to work 40 hours a week. And so being a business owner, it can take a lot more. It's like another baby you have, another child.

But if you die, like my mom at 55, like what's the point? What is the point of working your butt off to make a successful business? She just retired and then died. Just died a few months after retirement. What is the point of life? She thought she was gonna live to be 90. You know, what's the point? So stop, examine your life, and set those boundaries because you deserve to have health in the long run.

People that I look up to are like Dr. Esselstyn, who had on the show, he wrote the book, How to Reverse and Prevent Heart Disease. He's in his 80s and he's still skiing, downhill skiing at Vail every year. He's still incredibly active. And that's, I wanna be that, but in order to be that in our 80s, we have to be able to do squats now. We have to be able to, like you said, walk around the park. My biggest thing is if you can't exercise because you're whatever too busy, throw on a Zumba, go, YouTube is on our TVs now, we all have smart TVs, go put on a Zumba, find your favorite 90s or dance mix from the 2000s, or find some kind of Zumba class and do it with your kids, or just do it, or just dance around the house and do a cardio laundry, right? And cardio cleaning the house. No one's watching, right, unless it's your family, but getting your body moving and moving in a way that brings you joy is the most important because if you're like angry or upset or of self-talk the whole time like oh, I'm so weak. I can't believe it, oh, I'm I feel horrible and you're kind of like griping to yourself while you're exercising like that Remember the first part of this interview like that is harming your body, right? And that's like body shaming and all that negative self-talk is actually just counteracting all the good exercise so you gotta move your body in a way that brings you joy. 

One of the midwives that I'm really good friends with, she has like lost half her body weight by doing soccer. She found adult soccer, like not professional, just like adults that are just like regular, like you and me joined a club, they get together, they kick around a ball, they run around, and she has a blast. She made a bunch of friends and she just loves it. Now that's  probably the worst thing ever. I would hate to chase a ball around, but dodge ball, if I could find a just a bunch of adults that wanna play dodge ball, I would do that. That sounds like a lot of fun. So you gotta find something fun and be able to repeat it and do it every day. 20 minutes of Zumba a day or go for that walk or park a few blocks away. That is gonna be healthier in the long run than going to the gym twice a week and then being angry at yourself and having negative self-talk the whole time.

(1:20:11.669: Dr. Wendie Trubow: Couldn't have said it better and totally agree. No question.

(1:20:16.205) Ashley James: Man, if everyone who's listening has now checked all these things off, they're already feeling better. You start doing this within a month, you're already going to be feeling better. I have a I have a feeling that hydration is somewhere in this list, though. I feel like we might be getting towards hydration.

(1:20:31.741) Dr. Wendie Trubow: I have to acknowledge that hydration for me is such an assumed that I didn't really think about it. But yes, I mean, absolutely drink.

So here's the nuance. Because we started this conversation about where do you start with toxins and what can you do? So the goal is that you give your body what it needs so that it can get rid of the toxins that you're exposed to. If the cells are dehydrated, that makes the cell wall unstable. It makes you not able to flush out the toxins. So yeah, kind of assume like drink liquid and preferably organic and filtered, and filter your water to the very highest ability that you have. So whatever your budget allows for, that's the level at which you want to filter your water and your air. 

Okay and then the next thing I would say Ashley is probably the biggest one that you can really clearly see an impact on, although all of these are really impactful. It would be to anytime you're running out of a beauty product, essentially a beauty product, something that you use to clean your house, something you're using to do your laundry, essentially anything you purchase. We've already talked about leveling up your food, anything you purchase that you're putting on your body. Anytime you buy something new, you want to check it in the environmental working group. I use their app on my phone, EWG. You can also use Think Dirty. These are great apps and they rate the product and you can figure out oh, if I wanna detox, is this in line or not in line? 

Again, It's not a moral conversation It's just like is this gonna get me where I want to go or not So anytime you're buying something new if it's not highly rated, and I go for the green one two three in a pinch, that's the rate. There's the top rated items, if it's not highly rated then you're gonna want to level up and look for something that is highly-rated. And if you think about if you do that every time you're running out of something, over the course of the year you're going to essentially transform the products that you're putting on your body, on your clothes, cleaning your house. You're going to transform a lot of layers of your health just from transforming what you're purchasing. And especially when you think about not only are these things bad for us, they're bad for the earth.

It can feel sort of woo-woo to be like, oh, I want to be good to the earth. But really, if you have children, you want to make sure that the earth is healthy and not a polluted place so that they don't wind up with tons of chronic disease, autoimmune disease, and an even shorter lifespan. We're the most developed nation and we have the worst lifespan. We're like the worst of the developed nations because of all the toxins in the way we live. And so that's fixable, right? But we also want to keep in mind, what are we leaving? Well, not only what inheritance are we leaving for our children and their children?

(1:23:38.765) Ashley James: Well, we can think about generations, but actually what the products we're using are affecting our health right now and also in the near future. Because for example, bathe in tap water from a municipal water source, they're recycling what gets flushed down the toilet or whatever, they're recycling the water. And if you're using Tide and other harsh chemicals, you're using whatever Mr. Clean or whatever all those things that, if you look on the back of, and it has some kind of like, this contains something that could cause cancer. Those go into our water supply and in some level are gonna come back to haunt us in our lifetime, not just our children. We are destroying the planet by thinking that, oh, it's okay. I'm just using this one bottle and I'm just cleaning and then it magically goes down the toilet or it magically goes down the sink and it just disappears poof and then all of a sudden it becomes non-toxic and it doesn't hurt anyone. No, it actually does. It doesn't. These are what we call forever chemicals, right? They're forever harming us in our lifetime and in our children's lifetime and all the animals, everything right now. We're killing the soil with the way we're doing agriculture. We're killing the soil and it is having an impact now on weather. I had a whole episode on this, it's really interesting, but we talk about how we have these droughts, right? And then we have these floods, and we can link it back to how we do agriculture and that we remove the top layer of soil, which means that the soil isn't retaining, it doesn't absorb the moisture, and then release it slowly. And so we end up having these big droughts, and then when it does rain, we have these deluges and we have these floods. 

And we're seeing it globally because this is how modern farming is. And now we're seeing how wrong it is. Oh, laissez-faire, it's fine. They sell it in the grocery store and therefore it's okay for me. Most of the chemicals sold in the grocery stores or sold in Home Depot or whatever is sold, sold on our shelves in the United States are illegal in the European Union. And that's why we have to do our due diligence and we have to be very conscious consumers. I like to say I become a detective. I'm like Sherlock Holmes whenever I read all the ingredients, I have to read all the labels. And I still have my eyesight so I can do that. I don't need readers. But my husband kind of gave up on that. And he's like, Oh, you're taking too long. I'm like, Well, here, read the labels with me. He's like, No, because he's like, I didn't bring my readers to read all these ingredients with you. But like you said, we can we can go on environmental working group and look. And just the other day, my husband wanted to kill some moss that was on the concrete outside. And  he was like, oh, let's buy this can of da da da. I'm like, I look on the back of the can, I'm like, are you kidding me? This stuff can kill you, cause this cancer. And if you inhale it, you're going to the hospital. So how is this even legal? You know, you need to wear like a special gas mask if you're gonna use this material. Why don't we just use, and I looked it up, boron, which is borax, boron, vinegar, and hot water, and a scrub brush will kill the moss naturally and safely and healthfully and not hurt anyone. I love using borax as a cleaner, because you can use it as a scrub, and I scrub the sink with it, and it descales, I wash my kettle with it, and we know it's not gonna kill us, it's just a mineral. So there's so many things we can do, which is some vinegar, some baking soda, and some boron. We can really change our habits around cleaning with these natural ingredients that are Grandma used to use. Got to go back to what grandma did. She was so smart and resourceful. And then we're not introducing this into our air, into our water, harming ourselves now and our skin will absorb. When you clean, your skin absorbs it. 

I have a friend who did the Platinum Energy System foot detox and it pulled out. I talk about this in a previous episode, but I sat her down, she put her feet in it and a half an hour later, the water smelled like Febreze and bleach. And it was very, very strong scent. Like the whole room started smelling like it. And I looked at her, I'm like, what's going on? This machine is like a rife machine that pulls toxins out of you through your feet. And she's like, I didn't even notice about her. She goes, 15 years ago, I was a maid and I used all the same chemicals were smelling in this water I used and I didn't use gloves. It stayed in her. It's just crazy. VOCs (Volatile Organic Compound) don't matter. Here's the thing. We go, oh, but it's low VOC. VOC has nothing to do with it. VOC is how a molecule will interact in our ozone layer. It has nothing to do with your health. Acetone, if you go to a salon and you're smelling acetone, within 15 minutes, if you're just smelt it, within 15 minutes  your liver is detoxifying it. It got into your body. If you smell a chemical, if you smell a perfume, it is now in your lymph system. Your body has to deal with it. If you're peeling an orange, that's high VOC. That's not bad for you. Low VOC has nothing to do with whether it's healthy or not healthy. So we have to know that these artificial chemicals, if you're smelling them or if they get on your skin, they're inside your body and your liver has to process it. And then that causes us to need to use up our nutrients in order to detox it.

So I'm a big, big believer in what you're talking about, that we should one at a time replace these products. Actually, I'm not as forgiving as you. I say, throw them all out. It's all trash. Everything under your kitchen sink, everything under your bathroom sink is horrible because, and here's the interesting part, everything in a container in a bottle is off gassing. I can't remember what episode it was, but it was like episode 50. It was a long time ago. This woman had a machine that she'd put in your home.

And it was like an air filter, but it would capture all the molecules that you're inhaling. And then she would analyze it, put it through a computer, analyze it. And she could tell you the brands of cleaners under your kitchen sink. She'd be like, okay, so you have the Mr. Clean, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Because even though it's under your kitchen sink and you've had it for years in your kitchen sink or under your bathroom sink, it's off gassing and your body is, in small amounts, but your body is still inhaling it and absorbing it even though it's in a bottle under your kitchen sink. So I say, get it out. She even went so far as to say, if you have a garage that's attached to your home, because she can detect chemicals that are hanging out in your garage. If it's attached to your home, it doesn't have like a hundred solid vapor bearers. She says, don't even buy a home that has a garage attached. You should have a separate garage if you're gonna store bottles that are with chemicals.

(1:30:42.282) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Don't have those chemicals. So you don't have to worry about storing them right? Let me go back to this because we didn't talk about this and this is a perfect place to really have people think about is that the chemicals developed in the United States never had to be vetted before they got released on the market. So when we think about, oh, it's probably safe because it's on the market, no, it's on the market because it was never tested. And the Environmental Protection Agency has very little ability to test products unless a company self-reports. And what company is going to do that, right? Because that's their livelihood. And so the EPA tests items that companies self-report, you do not have to prove that it's safe. You should be able to show, but when it hits the market that you don't think it's gonna harm someone. But that's a very different standard, right? That's like, I don't think I'm pregnant, but you could be. So it's very important to remember that even though people have good intentions that doesn't always get represented the way we want it to. And so the chemicals that you're being exposed to, the greenwashing, which makes you think that it's healthy for you, it's not. And so it is up to you to do the footwork. And part of the reason I say go one, two reasons I say go one item at a time. One is it's extremely expensive for people. But two, really the bigger thing is it's overwhelming. People get stuck in, oh my God, what do I do first? Well, first you do what you're running out of.

It's practical, right? You can get your head around, okay, I'm running out of that. Cool. I want to level up. Let me take a second to talk about tea. You want to make sure you're buying organic tea in bags that are not made of plastic. There is plastic in tea bags unless it specifically says it does not. Okay? So you're like happy, oh, look at me. I'm drinking tea instead of coffee. Coffee's moldy. I didn't want to do that. Okay, great. You're now getting a dose of plastic with your tea. 

Get rid of the cake cups in the Keurig because you're forcing hot water through plastic. This makes no sense because you're trying to detox, you're trying to do a good job, and then you load up. So there's a lot of pieces here. 

(1:33:01.293) Ashley James: Right. Good, better, best. Choose, choose everything out of all these categories, choose something and do better. Do a good, then do better, then do best. Instead of getting overwhelmed. Cause when we see too much, Oh, I have too much, just too much, just too much to get overwhelmed. Just choose what you can do. And just ask yourself that fun question, make it a game that gives you a little bit of dopamine. What can I level up today? What, what can I do to level up and choose one from each category or just choose one from one category that we've talked about and go with it. I gotta say, one of my friends formulates 100% all natural organic skincare. And it's actually really affordable because she is just so kindhearted. She crafts it herself in her kitchen after she gets the kids to sleep and she sells it online now. Finally, she's been selling it for years locally. It's and she's giving her listeners a crazy big discount. It's LTH is the coupon code, And I love it. You could eat this if you wanted to, but you know, it wouldn't taste good, but you could if you wanted to eat her face cream. And in the next year, she's been formulating and she tests this. She doesn't test on animals, she tests on humans. So she's been tested. She has a ton of girlfriends that will try out all her stuff. And so once it does come to market, it's been fully tested and used for several years.

But she is slowly launching her entire skincare line online, but so far it's just the face cream that can also be used as a body cream. It's delicious, I love it. And it is all natural. So that's LTH as in Learn to Health is the coupon code. And just yeah, there's so much information out there when it comes to replacing our skincare products and everything under our sink and everything on our counter. Everything on the bathroom counter, under the kitchen sink, under the bathroom sink, all that stuff, we can find natural solutions for that are not only good for the environment and like not harmful for us, but there's also ones that have ingredients that are good for us, right? In addition to that. So we can find stuff that actually helps our body, helps the microbiome of our skin, helps our stress levels, like, you know, using essential oils responsibly. We can, it's using a type of herbal medicine. We can use that and we can make our own natural cleaners or our own cosmetics. And we can have an experience where we're increasing our health while we're also replacing all the junk that's harming us.

(1:35:39.792) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Yeah, and I think there's so many things that people can do but the things that we've talked about are the top things that people people can really take control over and and do without needing any kind of functional medicine person now if you did all that and you're like, oh man I think there's room for improvement that's when you want to see if seasoned functional medicine person because you're most likely dealing with toxins at that point.

(1:36:08.398) Ashley James: Yes, but take the time to do each one. It's so important because like you said, you could get 70% of the way there feeling good. And that kind of saves you money in a sense, instead of like you go see Dr. Wendie day one, she's gonna tell you to do all this anyway. So instead of paying her to tell you to do this, go do this, see how far you can get, and then get the help, get the testing, narrow it down.

As far as diet, because diet is so big and some people are like, well, I heard the carnivore diets really good and I hear raw vegans really good. And I hear the West Beach, whatever diet is really good. Like you said, that long-term lifestyle, what's a way, instead of grabbing onto an ideology or like a diet dogma, what's a way that we can know by listening to our body or maybe looking at lab work that we're on the right path, do you have some kind of hints for people to be able to dial in foods that are healing for them instead of gravitating towards foods that maybe are dopamine increasing but not good for us?

(1:37:28.780) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Yeah, I think, I mean, this is like a minefield. So let's say there's no.

I despise the word diet and implies temporary. And it literally, think about it, D-I-E. Don't get to the T, you die. So I'm a huge anti-diet human. I really only believe in doing things that are sustainable and work for you. And then I'm gonna say that there's no one eating program that's gonna work for everyone. So what I'm gonna say is generally, right? Big broad brushstrokes, humans do better when they eat food that is less processed, avoids seed oils, minimizes sugar, and that the products look like what they started as. That would be a good guidepost. And then within that you can be vegan, you can eat dairy or not, you can eat flesh or not, but there's a lot of room to swing out and that essentially at the end of your meal you want to ask yourself do I feel good in my body? Does this food feel good in me?

Is it kind to me? Is it mutual? Right? Look, I used to love French bread, but I got celiac. It is not a mutual love affair. Right? It's a one way street here. And so don't engage in relationships that are a one way street. Make sure your food loves you as much as you love it. And don't eat it if it doesn't, because it's not worth it.

(1:38:44.241) Ashley James: Love it. Yeah, those processed foods, it's like an abusive relationship. You love it, but it does not love you back. It hurts you. So get rid of it.

(1:38:54.397) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Exactly. Yeah, have it be mutual love affair. And within that, there's a lot of room to have differences.

(1:39:01.672) Ashley James: Yes, exactly. It's been so great having you on the show again. Remember listeners can go to and get the download of the How to Feel Frickin and Fantastic Ebook that you're giving us for free and we want to stay in touch because, your big book is being released, you want to tell us just a little bit about your book that's coming out, is it early next year that it's coming out?

(1:39:30.714) Dr. Wendie Trubow: We haven't set a date yet. It's probably about this time next year.

So apparently all of our books are so far based on my messes. And so I hit perimenopause like hitting a brick wall. It was really unpleasant. And one day I was sitting in the car. It was the dead of summer. The car was off. My kids were in the car, hence the reason I wasn't swearing. And the sun is baking us. And we're waiting for my husband to get in the car. I don't know what he's doing. He pokes his head in the car and he asks me something. Actually, to this day I have no idea what he asked me because I was like the exorcist. I looked over at him and I went, do you value your life? Turn on the car. And he was like, okay. So he turned on the car. We get going, I get the air blasting, I'm cooling off and I looked at him and I'm like, Perimenopause, bitch. I'm so sweaty and bitchy. And then I was like, I guess I'm not the only one experiencing this. I think we need to write that book. That's our next book. And so the first book is Dirty Girl, which is based on my hot mess toxic breakdowns. And then the second book is about transitioning into menopause. I think our third book is going to be either about constipation or about male sexual performance, ability to get erections. We're going to go down one of those two paths. And neither of those is personal. It's more just what's on our mind. But that's the book that's coming. It's really a roadmap for navigating the perimenopause into menopause powerfully, gracefully, and with your relationships, your job, and your life intact, and not only intact, but thriving. How do you thrive that process as you go into this new phase and become your next self.

(1:41:21.387) Ashley James: Love it. Yeah. Well, I know that ED's (Erectile Dysfunction) going to be big, but I have to say constipation. If you're constipated, like everything's wrong. It's kind of like LA when there's traffic backed up or any. Name a city. Look at the highway. If the highway isn't moving, it's just gridlock like that. All the ulterior, everything that feeds into that backs up. And then there's just honking and fumes and like toxins building up, especially like think about maybe Mexico city where there's, it's kind of like a bowl or Las Vegas, it's in a bowl. There's no wind. And then if there was a ton of traffic just sitting there, all the fumes from the cars are just sitting there gathering and gathering and gathering. It's getting more and more and more toxic. And that's what constipation is.

Constipation is your body reabsorbing the toxins the liver just got rid of us absorbing everything's going wrong. We're getting that build up of all the toxins from the bad bacteria. It's the constipation feeds into the candida culture of the gut that you don't want and so it's just like everything gets backed up everything gets toxic everything gets crabby.

Then we've got brain fog, then we've got hormone disruption, and it's just like every system in the body starts failing. All the red lights in the dashboard are going. It is bad news. Like constipation, which people, they don't think it's as serious as it is. It is a big deal. So that's my vote. If I could cast a vote, I would say do the constipation one because once you get the gut corrected and get poop going three times a day, you wanna poop three times a day, well-formed poops that you don't have to strain and they're so good and clean. It's like you don't even need to wipe. Like you go to wipe and there is nothing stuck to your butt. Like that, if you can have that three times a day, everything feels like you said, you could get 70% better just by correcting these things. If you have perfect poops, 70% of everything going on in your health is gonna get better. It's amazing. So for me, my vote is for the constipation one for sure, but also I don't have ED problems in my life, so.

(1:43:36.338) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Right? I only like the title because we would call it Rise Up. That's why I want to write it because it's such a fun thing. Rise Up! All about men's ability to get erections. But no.

Yeah, I can see constipation being the big thing. So the next book is Sweaty and Bitchy, From Sex to Brain Function, Master Menopause and Feel Freaking Amazing. So that's 2024, probably around May 2024, when it takes about a year to launch a book. So we've already got it written, now we just need to edit it and make the PR plan. So about a year.

(1:44:15.302) Ashley James: So cool. Well, we'll definitely have you back on the show to talk about more about your book. Every single book, just come back, just come back every time. Love to have you. You're such a blessing and thank you so much for your wealth of knowledge. You have such a big heart and you're alongside us, having these experiences, being human. I know I've interviewed these doctors who are like, they put themselves on a pedestal like nothing's wrong with them. They're perfect. And they have perfect health and they're all telling us what to do. And you're right there with us. You're sweating. No. We're all human. We can learn from your experiences, which is beautiful. So thank you for sharing them.

(1:44:54.591) Dr. Wendie Trubow: Hey, my pleasure. I hope that this was valuable for someone, right? That it makes a difference and give them the tools to take the next step and have a transformation.

(1:45:02.327) Ashley James: Absolutely. Listeners can go to and check out the show notes in today's podcast, cause we have all the links, for Dr. Wendie Trubow, including her social media. And you can jump on social media and tell her how much this helped you today.

(1:45:17.883) Wendie Trubow: Thank you, Ashley. This was great.


Get Connected with Dr. Wendie Trubow!




Book by Dr. Wendie Trubow:

Dirty Girl: Ditch the Toxins, Look Great, and Feel Freaking Amazing!

Aug 16, 2023

Check out Episode 496 about the wearable tech I talked about during the show:

Check out Episode 106 about becoming a health coach!

Get a free Health Coach Training sample class from IIN:

Get your Analemma Structured Water Device:
Coupon code LTH at


509: Ten Steps to Radical Remission

Ashley James And Liz Curran

Liz Curran explores a transformative journey toward radical remission and spontaneous healing. Through ten crucial steps, Curran guides readers on a holistic path that encompasses emotional, mental, spiritual, and physical empowerment. She emphasizes the role of spirituality and self-advocacy in achieving well-being, underlining the interconnectedness of these elements. Curran's work underscores the profound influence of one's inner strength, belief in a higher power, and a comprehensive approach to healing. Ultimately, this engaging exploration inspires individuals to take charge of their health and well-being while embracing the powerful potential of holistic self-advocacy.


  • Ten essential steps encompassing emotional, mental, spiritual, and physical empowerment.
  • The importance of holistic self-advocacy as a crucial element of this transformative process
  • Spirituality plays a significant role in the healing journey, highlighting the connection between faith and well-being
  • The profound impact of inner strength and belief in a higher power on one's health
  • Take control of your well-being and embrace a comprehensive approach to healing
  • Harnessing your inner potential and experiencing radical remission and spontaneous healing


Hello, true health seeker, and welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health podcast. We have an amazing guest today. I can't wait for you to dive in and listen to Liz. This is exactly what the Learn True Health podcast is about. It's about showing you that there's this quantum-level healing that's available to you.

And I know that for some people, that sounds corny, that sounds too good to be true. That sounds far-fetched or just exaggerated. There's so much proof. There's so much evidence to support the idea that we can radically change our health, that even though against what all the people in lab coats have said to you in the past, that you can shift your life in a way that allows you to have true health, no matter what your diagnosis is. Liz works with people who even have end-of-life stage, beyond stage four cancer, and they go into radical remission. They go into spontaneous healings, or they go into such a beautiful remission over several months where now it's been 10, 20 years and they're still cancer free, or they're still disease free, not just cancer. 

But, you know, people take cancer pretty seriously. It's one of those diseases where people are willing to fly to Mexico and go around the world to find what's going to help their body heal itself. And so when we look at a major diagnosis, usually we're given a death sentence by a medical professional, or we're told you might have five years or, if you do all the cut, burn, and poison stuff, you may live for five years and it's so morbid. It's such a bleak outlook. And then we have what Liz talks about today, this entire other spectrum where people are plugging themselves into information that supports their body's ability to heal themselves emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and physically and take their body to the next level. No matter what you've been told, take it to the next level. That's what today's episode is about. I am so excited for you to dive into this because it does take a mental shift. There is a belief system change, at least taking on the hope, expanding your awareness of what's possible. That is the first step.

Before we dive into today's episode, there are two resources and a story I wanted to share with you. I meant to share it during the interview, and it came up in my mind. The conversation kept going, and then afterward, I was like, Oh shoot. I meant to bring up this one story. It's so cool. We moved almost two years ago, but like 18 months ago, we moved to a new area, 45 minutes away from where we had been living for seven years, and a friend of mine recommended a church that I join. It's a beautiful church that believes in the body's ability to heal itself, that believes that God, the divine intervention, spontaneous healings, miracles of this whole body, this whole church believes in miracles.

And it's so cool because there are hundreds of people that come to this church, and they lay on their hands, and they pray. I'm very new to this because I was raised an Anglican, which, for those not in the UK or Canada don't know much about what Anglican is. I was raised Protestant. So it's sort of like Catholic light, and I didn't have a lot of experience with the other denominations, other types of Christian outlook. So I joined this church, and I see people jumping up and down and dancing in the aisles. And I thought, well, the energy here is amazing. It was definitely not what I was used to.

I was used to incense and Nomine Padre et Fili Espiritu Sante, you know, a very different kind of church environment. But I went with it because I was like, man, people are just on fire. They're so in love. There's so there's something there. And I remember, actually, my first experience there, I went alone, and I felt my daughter in my arms. I felt this pressure right where I'd held her because I held her for hours before the coroner took her away. And right on my left shoulder, I could feel her. And when I was in church, all of a sudden, I felt her. I felt the pressure like the baby was in my arms. I went through so much emotional healing that first month, the first four times I went to that church. Each time, especially during worship, where we're singing, it was just waves and waves of grief being released, and I just brought it all.

I brought everything that I was holding on to, and it was so, so beautiful. During that time, like 18 months ago, the early part of me just plugged into this church community. There was a woman who was diagnosed with breast cancer, and I've lost a best friend to breast cancer. I know so many people who've lost someone to breast cancer. It's a pretty big deal. I know breast cancer survivors, too. I've also been friends with them also. So, it's not a death sentence. It doesn't have to be a death sentence, but it is scary. She had a tumor, and everyone prayed for her, and she prayed, and she received a very clear; she said it was a voice from God. And He said to her, I am burning this away out of you with fire. It is gone. I burned it away with fire. And she wasn't quite sure what that meant. 

At the time, I wasn't confident that I would ever hear God's voice audibly, but I so wanted to have that same experience because some people have these phenomenal spiritual experiences, these metaphysical experiences that are so beautiful and brilliant. And then there are other people who don't. It's like, well, why do some do, and why do some don't? I think we have to take the first step and say, I want this. I want to plug into this. I want to experience this. And she threw herself in, and she goes, I have faith, God, that you'll heal me. That this is what you have for me.

So she goes to the doctor, and they want to do another scan. They're getting ready to cut her breast off or do radiation, all the stuff they're ready to do. And she goes, I don't need any of that. God told me that the tumor was gone, that he burned it away. And they're like, yeah, okay. Yeah. Right. Get an MRI.

Like just, okay, sure, sure. Get it in. Like, let's just do the scan anyway. She's like, fine. Well, I don't need to prove it to myself because I believe God did it because He said so. But I'll humor you to show you God's work. And she went, got into the machine, and they scanned her breasts, and they just had a scan. They're going to compare one month to the next month kind of thing. Or it was a recent scan that they had. And now they're checking it again. In order to do surgery, they need more of an exact, like, okay, how much has it grown? Like, where are we going to cut? And they said this is so wild. It's gone. The only thing left on the scan is something that just looks like smoke. It just looks like there's smoke there on the image. That's all that's left. There's no tumor. There are no defined lines. It just looks like smoke. And she goes, I told you, God burned it away.

Now, that was so powerful. It hit me. And I know there are people out there who don't believe in God, and I'm not here to make anyone upset. I want to give you all the information and hopefully allow you to expand your awareness of what's possible. And if a woman goes in and, you know, okay, let's, let's play the devil's advocate because I am such a doubting Thomas. Let's play the devil's advocate. And I believe that there is a God. That's my own personal belief system. I believe that there's a divine creator, and there are people who don't.

So, if you're someone who doesn't, and that's you, I honor, love, and respect everyone listening. What I want for you is I want true health. I want you to feel love. I want you to feel purpose. I want you to feel that you get to have true health no matter where you come from politically, what country you come from, what belief system you have, and whether you have religion or not. You and I are connected. We're both humans. We both breathe the same air. If we're cut, we bleed. If you hurt us, we'll cry. You and I are connected. And I love you. And I want greatness for you. I want you to have your goals. And I want you to have your health. So, regardless of whether you believe in God or not.

Let's play the devil's advocate. Let's say that there's no God. Right. And now, again, it's not my belief system. Maybe it's yours, but let's just say there's not. Does that really matter in the grand scheme of things? Whether there is or isn't, she's healed. Now, is it all in her mind that she heard a voice that said to her, her tumor is gone, and now it's gone?

Does that matter? So for me, it's like some people say, well, ginger, you know, ginger is super healthy for you or turmeric is super healthy for you. And some people have these amazing miraculous healings when they, when they take ginger and turmeric and some herbs and, and then, then other people go, well, we have to have studies, and we have to have science.

I'm like that. I don't care whether it was a placebo or not for that individual. They get to go home to their family. They get to hug their kids. They get to be with their spouse like they have a new lease on life. And so their belief system shifted to a point where whatever they were doing, whether it was divine intervention in God, whether it was a placebo effect of some kind of miraculous, like a mind over matter experience, whether it was the herbs they were taking, whether all of the above, the fact that she no longer has cancer. For me, that is the end result. I want everyone to have true health. Now, at the end of the day, we know that people who have a connection to the Source, a connection to their Creator, that they are generally more fulfilled and happier in life. And so, you don't have to get involved in religion, but we do talk, at some point in this interview, we do touch on this subject.

So I just want to preface it with, I want for you to feel purpose in life and to feel fulfilled and to feel deeply, deeply loved and valued. And some people get that from their connection to God. And some people get that from their connection to nature, their connection to family. Those things are things you can't buy, but you can cultivate, and you can grow.

So we talk a bit about that. We talk about a lot of really cool things: ten steps to radical remission and spontaneous healings. We're going to dive in. Beautiful episode. Before we jump in, just one more thing. I wanted to let you know about two episodes that I mentioned in today's podcast. So, I want you guys to go back because I didn't mention the numbers during this interview.

Episode #496 is the phototherapy episode. Check that out. As part of it, we discuss something that increases glutathione by 300 percent in the first 24 hours. And it's the equivalent of a coffee a day kind of thing, the cost of a coffee a day. Whereas it's actually the cheapest way to increase glutathione in the body.

It's cheaper and more effective than any other modality. And so, that's something I feel that everyone should know about, but especially those who want radical remission. There's also a way to stimulate your body's own production of stem cells at any age by increasing several peptides that have anti-cancer properties. It's really phenomenal. I have over a hundred clients using this technology now, and we're seeing outstanding results. So, definitely check out Episode #496, and I'd love to chat with you. If you want to chat with me, we can have a free phone call. I'd love to help you. I'm a health coach. I've been doing this for 12 years now, and I am deeply passionate about helping you overcome your health issues.

You can go to, and in the menu, click on Work with Ashley James, and scroll down to the first appointment. That's the free consultation. I'd love to chat with you. You can hire me as your health coach. You don't have to. That's an option for you. You can just chat with me for free. I'm going to email you some resources and help set you on your path to health, help answer some questions for you. And you can choose to hire me or not. I'm just here to help you. The last thing is, Episode #106. This is a few years ago episode, going all the way back to Episode #106 with Joshua Rosenthal. He's the founder of the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. which is IIN, and they do the world's biggest and longest and most popular and most thorough online health coach training program. They have a 6-month program. They have a 12-month program. Deepak Chopra has now become a part of it. He's now a business owner with Joshua Rosenthal, and that together, they have even revamped the health coach training program since I took it, and they've added a lot more. It's a wonderfully transformative year. If you do it in a year, it takes about 20 to 30 minutes a day. You can do it while you're driving. You don't have to sit down at a desk, so it's designed for very busy people. But if you want to get it done sooner, you can do their year-long program, which is about an hour a day. And I'd love for you to check out the free course. They give you a sample course. Go to So if you have any interest at all in health coach training programs, or just want to look into it, see about it, check it out.

I negotiated years ago, back when I interviewed Joshua Rosenthal. I got them to agree to give a really big discount to my listeners and they honor that. So when you give them a call to sign up, make sure you mention Ashley James and the Learn True Health podcast because I get a great discount for you guys. Awesome. All right. Thank you so much for being a listener. Thank you so much for sharing this episode and all of my episodes with those you care about, especially this episode with your friends and family who are concerned about overcoming major illnesses and getting their health to the next level. Enjoy today's episode. 

[0:14:21.6] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health Podcast. I'm your host, Ashley James. This is Episode #509.

I am so excited for today's guest. We have on the show, Liz Curran from I can't wait to dive in. This is such a juicy subject. I pretty much feel like all my listeners want radical remission. So before we even just dive in, Liz, can you give us that definition of what radical remission is? 

[0:14:56.6] Liz Curran: I absolutely can. So a radical remission is, there are three points. The first one is someone that heals without conventional treatment. The second one is someone who first tries conventional treatment, which does not lead to a remission, so they try an alternative treatment, which does lead to a remission. And then the third one is, that someone that uses a combination of conventional and alternative treatments at the same time in order to outlive a dire prognosis that is less than 25% five year survival rate.

[0:15:39.1] Ashley James: So for, is that talking specifically about cancer and other major diseases? Or are we also covering things like remission from alcohol, from addiction or remission from emotional trauma? Does it cover all of health — mental, emotional, spiritual, physical? Or are we just talking about physical disease?

[0:16:04.5] Liz Curran: Absolutely, we believe that these concepts, these ten healing factors that we'll share are for everyone. They encompass the mind, body, and spirit. So, anyone that is looking to heal from situations where they're kind of in a dire diagnosis of sorts, or even people who, the research for radical remission, that is the foundation for the Radical Remission Project was done on cancer patients. So, a lot of times, people will think radical remission is applicable only to that. We have another book that came out in 2020 called Radical Hope that opens up these healing factors to people who have life-altering diagnoses. And as we'll share in my personal story, my sister passed away from a very aggressive cancer. And because of her situation, I practice these from a preventative place. So I'm what you call a previvor. 

[0:17:25.7] Ashley James: Oh my goodness. I think everyone's ears are perked up. I feel like you're talking to everyone. Absolutely, everyone either has something they want to overcome that maybe a doctor has said, well, you're just going to have this for the rest of your life, or you just have this cause it's genetic or because your mom had it, or because of the color of your skin, or whatever. We're told so many lies by the medical establishment, and I feel that individual doctors have their hearts in the right place, but their training has brainwashed them to tell us that we can't heal ourselves and that we're stuck with a problem that needs a drug. I believe that drugs have their place, but I think 90% of the time we're misusing them when we need to look at

the body as a whole, our life as a whole, and that we can heal. And I love the more that we listen to radical remission stories, the more it builds our hope, and we realize that, yes, my body can heal itself, and it begins to build that hope and that vision in our mind, and we see time and time again in studies that that placebo effect — again, I'm not saying that natural medicine is a fake thing — but I'm saying that your belief system, how many books have been written on the belief system overcoming medical things and having wonderful remissions. So, of course, there's that mind-body connection. Of course, we can build that hope inside us, build that vision and that we can seek out natural remedies to support our body's ability to heal ourselves. And so I think you've touched, you've just talked to all the listeners because either they want to overcome something or they have a dear loved one in their life that can overcome something. Type 2 diabetes is a hundred percent recoverable easily. I help people all the time recover from Type 2 diabetes.

Type 1 diabetes can be helped so much that they can become so healthy and live such a long, healthy life. It's not about not having Type 1, it's about how good we can get our health, and they're told they can't. But there's so much out there in the holistic space that lets them build their health. So I'm just thinking about all the different diagnoses that, if we listen to the medical establishment, we're told we just can't heal. And that's not the case. Time and time again, it's not the case. We can heal ourselves. So Liz, I'm so excited for what you're doing. I'm so excited for your podcast. It's going to be launched soon, in the fall time. Hearing the radical remission stories — I have a feeling I'm going to listen to that show and just cry every episode. 

[0:20:16.6] Liz Curran: Well, one of the original missions of Radical Remission when the information was first being brought out was to make sure that we could share as many healing stories as possible for people who've overcome the odds of their diagnosis. So it's really making sure that people know that whether you're using treatment or you're not using treatment specifically around cancer, but in general, knowing that, again, the body has the ability to heal. As I'll share these ten healing factors from this research, it really gives people the tools that they need so that they can begin to take the reins and find their own way to healing with or without the aid of their practitioners, depending on who they feel is going to have a seat at the table.

[0:21:11.0] Ashley James: Love it. Liz, we definitely want to jump into those 10 steps. We definitely want to leave the listener with some meat. Some tangible stuff that they can start to shift their life and their hope and their health today. Before we do that, I want to jump into your story, though, because I'm really curious how you came about finding radical remission, and I hear you have your own radical remission story.

[0:21:40.5] Liz Curran: Well, I guess it all started back in 2014. My sister was diagnosed with a very rare, very aggressive breast cancer and went through the typical conventional path of chemo mastectomy radiation. And on the last day of her 30 days of radiation, she had back pain, so they gave her a scan and they found the cancer was throughout her whole body. So that was the last thing we expected and the last thing we wanted. So, that was a really hard time. And during her treatment, I really went deep into kind of like, you know, some people go into an addiction of sorts. I went into an addiction to health. I went into diet change and learning about meditation and stress reduction and anxiety reduction just for my own personal sanity. And after she passed, almost not quite even a year after she was diagnosed, I had all this information and these tools that really helped me get through, obviously, the most difficult point in my life at that point. It was really powerful for me to be able to go into health coaching and begin to share the different things that I had learned. At the same time, a couple of years after my sister passed away, a neighbor of mine was diagnosed with basically an untreatable cancer and she was 35. She had a four and five-year-old, and they basically told her that chemo would buy her time, but it wouldn't be a high quality of life, and it would not be curative.

So, as she said, she's extremely religious, a very powerful Christian. So she followed her belief system, and with nothing else to lose, she ended up going to Mexico to be treated for her cancer at a healing center with an integrative approach in Mexico. Within three months of her trip to Mexico, her tumors had reduced 50%. By six months from her first visit, it didn't even show up on a scan. There was nothing to be shown. So that was a huge wake-up call. She was shocked. We were shocked. We were thrilled. Unfortunately, during that process, we realized how very expensive getting that treatment was and how that was kind of unfair and we didn't believe that people should have to lose everything just to be able to live based on a diagnosis. So, a group of our neighbors and friends created a nonprofit at the time to help fundraise for people who were seeking treatment for cancer that was not covered by health insurance. 

So that's actually the very long version of how I found Radical Remission because it was through that work in the nonprofit that I was introduced to a dear friend of mine now, John, who was a Radical Remission survivor at that time. And so he introduced me to the book and to the Radical Remission project and told me that there was a training and as a health coach, I was a practicing health coach at the time but had not been working in the cancer realm, found that those ten healing factors were the roadmap that people needed, regardless of cancer, but just for any old health coach to use, so these great tools to guide people to a full body healing. Like you said, that mind, body and spirit approach. 

[0:26:01.2] Ashley James: What's the name of the nonprofit? 

[0:26:05.0] Liz Curran: Well, it just retired this year, but it was called Heal Thy Life. And it's spelled healthy life with a little spin on a capital T and healthy. So we always loved that Heal Thy Life kind of embodied our friend, Sharon, on her journey that was just an incredible inspiration to everyone that knew her in our area, just kind of a local celebrity for choosing that path to healing and finding so much success in it. So it was very pivotal for me in my approach to healing and approach to life really. And so once I knew of that, it kind of lit a fire in me that I never wanted anyone to go through what my sister had gone through without having all of the information because, had she had the information, she may have had more time.

[0:27:03.9] Ashley James: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I've lost my mom to cancer, and I lost one of my best friends. And she started out the natural way. And then she stopped the growth of the tumors, but the tumor remained. Actually, it's just one tumor at the time. It just sat there, but it stopped. It was very aggressive, but she was able to get it to stop growing. And then she ran out of money and she had fundraised $50,000. She'd been to Mexico, just everything. And she had lost a bunch of weight in a good way because she was juicing and eating super clean, and she was doing everything right. But she ran out of funds. She couldn't buy any more of the supplements or the juice or anything. And then she talked to a naturopath. He's like, well, we need a killing agent. So, if you don't have the money for it, go for very light levels of chemotherapy, which is metronomic chemotherapy, where they do small amounts each week instead of these giant boluses. And very quickly, because she coupled that with still juicing, still fasting, the intermittent fasting, all this. And it went 100 percent away. It was gone. But then, this is where I wished, and I begged her to just stop, reevaluate, and build her health back. It's just gone. It's not on any scans. Just please, please, please trust the process. Your body has overcome it. Trust the process. And the chemo dealer, the doctor said to her, now you have to go for radiation because if you don't, it's going to come back and you're going to be wiped out. Well, that's where everything went downhill.

I once heard one of my mentors say that one of his clients said, never get radiation. There's a hole in my body that will not close and will not heal because of it. Now I'm not saying that you can't just say a blanket statement about everything, but I have not personally met someone where they had a positive like, oh yeah, radiation totally helped. I feel amazing. And my health is a hundred percent, you know, five years later. She ended up having, within the first treatment, it caused radiation scars on her lungs. And then everything went downhill from there, and she died a few months later. And the day she was in the hospital in a coma, the oncologist, the same oncologist called and said, when are you coming in for your next round of chemo? Like, come on, we got to get you back in. We got to get you back in. And I'm like, two minutes later, she died. We called them the whole time, saying, hey, she's in the hospital. It's getting worse. It's getting worse. And it was so painful because if we had just had more money. And that should not be a choice. That should not be the reason why someone suffers and dies and leaves their seven-year-old son alone. Right. And she cried and cried because she lost her dad when she was really young and she just didn't want to leave her son with the same as she loved him so much.

So the fact that we're given a wellness model that is like, if you're not a millionaire, go suck an egg. So that's why I was really touched by the charity that you guys built. And I'm so grateful for crowdfunding because we can get together and help each other. But there needs to be a better way. And I hope that what you're doing can inspire people, can inspire listeners, that together, we can figure out a way to help each other. And I just hope that the podcast that you do reaches the right person. That starts a movement. That makes it more affordable for all — I hate the word alternative care because it's like, well, this care is better — but we're going to call it alternative. It's secondary. Oh my goodness. Well, Liz, so since meeting John and being introduced to Radical Remission and beginning to work with these ten steps with your clients, what kind of changes have you seen in your own personal health? 

[0:31:17.2] Liz Curran: Well, I say that these factors brought me out of my grief. That's really how I feel. Like, they helped me with my mental and spiritual self at that really difficult time. What happens a lot of times when people don't know of the healing factors, but find their own version of healing, which I expect that you'll see the same when you see them or hear them, that people see that they've been doing these steps just intuitively. And that's exactly what happened for me. If you'd like, I can share a couple of the healing factors if you'd like for me to, as I share my story. 

[0:32:03.1] Ashley James: Is this part of the 10 steps? 

[0:32:03.8] Liz Curran: Yes. 

[0:32:04.5] Ashley James: Okay, well, okay, fine. Let's just jump in right now. 

[0:32:08.6] Liz Curran: Do you want to keep teasing them? 

[0:32:09.6] Ashley James: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanted to string them along for a bit. Now, you graduated from the Institute for Integrative Nutrition to become a health coach. And then later on, you've been studying the radical remission ways and became a coach with them. This is what I love about health coaching. It's not like one and done. Well, I mean, I guess some people could do that, but most health coaches, they're growing constantly, ongoingly taking on, bringing new tools and under the tool belt to aid their clients in the best possible health, emotional, mental, spiritual, physical. We're not like, well, you got to drink your eight glasses of water and go for a walk, like, see you next week. It's so much more than that. It's so custom tailored to each person and their unique needs. And we help them build their health based on what they want and help them. And usually, clients will come and tell you where their problems are. Like, listen, I have a really hard time with this and I really want to overcome that. And you're like, okay, let's work on it. And it's so beautiful because we pull the solutions out of them and help them take charge of their health to where it's easy. Now we take it from being hard to be easy, and then we help them master it.

And so I love the Institute for Integrative Nutrition, which is where we both graduated from, surprisingly. I have a feeling we graduated at the same time because I started the podcast when I graduated. I have to go back and look because it's been so long. But I think we might have graduated at the same time because I know I started it soon after the podcast. So that's really cool that we probably did at the same time and IIN has transformed so much since then. They have Deepak Chopra with all of his courses added to it. They have a lot more that's going on. And listeners who are inspired by Liz and would love to become a health coach, either just for their own personal growth, about 50 percent of people that graduate from IIN do it just for their own personal growth so that they can help their friends and family and themselves. But if you want to either add this to your tool belt because you're a practitioner or you want to just experience this wonderful transformative year of being focused on health, check out that gives you a free sample class. So you can get some feel for what it's like. And then also listeners, if you have any questions at all about it, I would love to share my personal experience or answer your questions about the program. I'm such a huge advocate of the IIN's program because I see that it really helps people get that full picture of how they can support their body mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually.

So, okay, let's jump in. Let's jump into the ten steps to radical remission. 

[0:35:08.0] Liz Curran: Okay, now before I do, I'm going to explain a little bit about how they came to be, because I think that really sets the stage. So Kelly Turner was a PhD student from Cal Berkeley back in — I don't even know how many years ago now, at least almost 20 years ago.

And she was an oncology social worker at the time and decided to go back for her PhD to study spontaneous remissions because she did not know why no one else was researching them and felt that there was a lot that could be learned from. They're healing and what it is that they did, and I don't think she really knew what she was going to find out.

So she traveled the world. She was sponsored by the American Cancer Society, and she traveled all over the world to interview radical remission survivors and their healers so that she could figure out what it is that they did on their healing journey. And what she found was there were over 75 different factors that came up in the research on what these people did. But after researching 1,500 plus cases of these spontaneous remissions, she found 10 things that they all did. So all the people that were researched — live interviews versus also medical journals and whatnot — she was able to conclude ten factors that they all did, and those are what we refer to as the radical remission healing factors. And so I can happily share what they are.

They fall into three categories. One is physical. To no surprise, you will hear about movement and exercise being one factor, changing your diet and taking herbs and supplements from a licensed practitioner. And those are, out of the 10, those are the only three physical factors and probably the ones may be more familiar to people than the others as a healing modality. Truly each of these factors, it can be supported and is supported. We do a workshop called the radical remission workshop. And in the workshop, we talk about each factor, how it came up in the research and then peer reviewed scientific research that backs it up. And then we share a healing story of someone who changed their healing path with that factor as one of the leads. And then we do an activity in the workshop to help people figure out how to implement that into their own life. So the three physical — diet, exercise, and taking herbs and supplements — those are the physical and then the rest are emotional and spiritual. So we have one that sounds very familiar to what the kinds of things you've been talking about today so far called empowering yourself. And empowering yourself from a radical remission survivor perspective is really someone who we might think of as a typical difficult patient. So someone who's trying to ask questions and understand the medicines that they're going to be taking and maybe finding their own research and bringing it to their doctor, finding second, third, fourth opinions, different kinds of practitioners and healers that they want to have on their team. But really someone who is taking the reins and being the CEO of their own health and making sure that they are really, mindfully adding practitioners and ones that they feel really aligned with in their healing. 

[0:38:53.4] Ashley James: I love that you said difficult patients, because like it's called self-advocacy, right? Advocating for yourself. And my friend who I talked about, she brought me, and sometimes it was my husband and I, who would attend all of her appointments. She got second and third opinions from doctors and naturopaths and all kinds of practitioners that are not in the same network, because you don't want to go to Dr. A and then walk down the hall to Dr. B. They work under the same roof. They're in the same network. They're, of course, going to agree with each other. And she had a huge binder she built. And I feel like that even intimidated the doctors. She walked in with her very well organized binder with all of her labs, all of her scans, all of the notes. And she collected data and she researched, and she was so thorough with all of it. And then she always had someone with her, and we always recorded each appointment. This ensured that they wouldn't belittle her, talk down to her, brush her off, or start urging her to go to start chemo tomorrow, because they tried to do that. And my husband stood up, he wasn't being intimidating, but this woman started speaking fear into my friend. My friend had a golf ball-sized tumor, nothing else. It wasn't stage four yet. And this woman was like, we have to get a port in today and we're going to start chemo tomorrow. And this was her first appointment. She hadn't gotten any other second opinion, third opinion.

And it was just rush, rush, rush, rush, rush. And that's what they do. They try to fear you. And, of course, we want to do things in a timely manner. We also want to take a step back and really evaluate and collect data. And my husband stood up and said, if our friend follows through and you guys miraculously picked the right chemotherapy — because they weren't going to do any kind of testing to figure out which one was the right one — and let's say it goes away, what are the side effects of your chemotherapy? Tell us all the side effects, and will it cause cancer? And she said, yes, even in the best of cases, two percent of people. Oh, it's like she goes, only 2 percent of people will develop leukemia from getting this. And my husband was just blown away. He goes, no, no, no, no. That's not “only” two percent. Two percent is two people out of a hundred. That's a lot. That's not small. That's not like an insignificant thing. And they give chemo to tens or hundreds of thousands of people. Just think about how many leukemias they've created. That's just a cash cow. 

So anyways, this idea of self-advocacy, sometimes it's also like grabbing a friend, making sure that you're heard, and making sure that there's someone else that's also taking notes. That was so impressive that you do not need to be alone. My mom was so ashamed that she got cancer. She didn't tell any of her friends till she died. And everyone was shocked at her funeral because she had so many friends. She was surrounded by all these women that were in tears thinking, I could have been there for my friend, but she never even let me in. And it's just, my mom felt such shame and guilt. And I didn't understand that. Your friends want to be there for you. And yet, when we're the ones sick, we think, oh, we don't want to be a burden on someone. 

[0:42:34.7] Liz Curran: Yes, exactly. And actually, one of the healing factors is increasing social support. Because having that social support system in place — and in our workshop, we'll talk about how there's two kinds — there's giving love and there's receiving love. And giving always feels a little bit easier to be the one that's offering the help, but it's equally important to receive, if not more so sometimes, to be willing to ask for the tap back into those people that you've been there for that want to be there for you.

And I always suggest this to people when we're working together on this factor, specifically. If your best friend were to ask you to do something for them, would you think they were a burden? And I'm pretty sure most people would say no. And in fact, the joy that people get from helping others that they love, that is what we really want people to focus on. Think about it as a gift that you're both receiving. They get to help you and you get helped and it's really important for people to realize that having people, even just the little things like, hey, can you bring in my mail for me? Something as small as that. But that is a person that's going to cross your path that day that wouldn't have otherwise. And with that path crossing, you're going to have a conversation, and you're going to maybe find out what they did today, and they're going to talk to you a little bit, and then the conversation becomes something that may have nothing to do with your disease, your depression, your fear. It's a way for you to kind of get outside of your head and feel supported and feel the love from some people that are in your support system.

And like your mom's point, there's a lot of emotions around it. So I feel like that social support has varied tremendously from person to person. It's just as individual as a diet might be. Some people only want their spouse to know, and they will never tell anybody at work, and they don't want anyone to know. And then you have somebody else, the next person might say, oh, yeah, I'm on every possible Facebook page, every social media outlet. I'm sharing my story. I have a blog. I have this, that, and the other. So there is such a spectrum of people's comfort in sharing and giving and receiving that social support that it really is very personal. And it's important to respect that perspective because you don't want to push somebody that really doesn't want that to be something that they identify as.

[0:45:16.2] Ashley James: Right, exactly. Benjamin Franklin figured something out. I read this years ago and it fascinated me that there was a politician who they sort of butted heads. I think one was on one side, one was on the other. And he went over to his office and he asked to borrow a book and he didn't need the book, but he just seemed interested in the book and asked to borrow it. And he was doing this experiment and what he saw was, we often think that when we do favors for other people that that makes them like us, but it's the opposite that is even more true. That when we ask for favors, it's something in the brain that makes the person who's giving the favor like the person they're helping even more. It gains more rapport because, of course, you're doing something good for someone. It's like you wouldn't do something good for someone that you didn't like. And so he ended up turning that around to a really good friendship after a while of borrowing his books and asking for favors he either needed or didn't need just to build that rapport and that trust. So when we're sitting there worried that we're going to be this burden, it's actually like you said, that gift of giving to someone else. They become more invested in you and your health and your well-being, and they feel so good doing it. So you're giving them that gift of feeling so good, being part of someone else. So we really like stepping outside of ourselves and helping other people. It's also very cathartic for those around you. So you're not just asking for healing for yourself. You're actually helping your community heal. 

[0:46:44.1] Liz Curran: Yeah, it's pretty powerful that the power of connection, the science research that we share, which on this specific factor, social support and having the right social support is more powerful for your healing than not drinking, not eating junk food and not smoking. So combined. So, if you have a really good social support system, then that trumps all those other attributes that are also important. But imagine if you can do that with social support. It's just exponentially more healing. 

[0:47:20.3] Ashley James: This makes complete sense. I interviewed Dr. Alan Christianson, I think three or four times. He's a really interesting doctor, a naturopathic endocrinologist, and he cites a very large study. They did this nurse's study. I apologize, I don't remember the exact details, because this interview was about two years ago. But listeners can go search Dr. Alan Christianson on the and find it. It was my most recent episode with him, but he talked about this study and he also talks about it in his book, The Adrenal Health Recovery book. But he talks about how they looked at the factors of overall health and they followed people to their death, basically. They followed people from adulthood all the way to when they passed away. And they looked at what were the most important factors, and you would think not smoking would be the number one, but it wasn't. And that was really interesting that number one had to do with your stress levels. It's like, for example, not having social support is a high stressor. And when you have social support, it lowers your stress levels, just like getting enough sleep, that kind of thing. But it makes so much sense. So those people that live to be 110 years old down in the South and the reporter goes on their porch and asks them what they've done their whole life, and you're thinking they eat kale. And they say, well, I make sure I drink a whiskey and I definitely smoke a cigar. Those people probably have this wonderful support system of this very rich social network. 

[0:49:03.1] Liz Curran: Right, yeah. It's kind of proven in the blue zone theory. So those people that are most often centenarians are over 100 years old. And what do they do? A lot of times, people will research that and those people and what they do. And it's not that they're not drinking and smoking. It's that they have that social connection and that bond. They feel included, that they belong. And all of those things are just their innate things that we need as human beings.

[0:49:35.3] Ashley James: It's probably why women live longer than men. 

[0:49:38.0] Liz Curran: We're social creatures. 

[0:49:39.6] Ashley James: Yeah, because, I mean, God forbid, if I passed away — knock on my Sunlighten sauna sitting beside me — my husband, I don't know what he would do. And I'm his liaison to all social things. He would probably just crawl into a cave. Hopefully not. But I just see women definitely live longer than men. For the most part, we're also just wired to be more social generally and build networks and build connections and help each other. 

[0:50:15.9] Liz Curran: All right. You want some more? 

[0:50:16.9] Ashley James: Yes. I want some more. Give it to us. 

[0:50:18.3] Liz Curran: Okay. All right. So, releasing suppressed emotions is one of them, which is where we put in stress, anxiety, depression, those kinds of emotions that get stuck in our bodies. And we counterpoint that with increasing positive emotions. So not only is it important to release the traumas and things that kind of get stuck in us emotionally, and not just push it down, but to release it. It's also very important to increase the positivity in our lives every day. And the Radical Remission Survivor interviews defined increasing positive emotions as something that was like a muscle that needed to be worked. And it was something that they needed to do at least five minutes a day and grow from there to as much time as they could throughout their day.

And again, very personal to each person, but the research is really impressive when you look at the cancer research on increasing positivity. So there are research studies that show that when someone is in chemotherapy, they did a study where half the people doing chemo were just told to go about their business, do their usual routine. And the other half was shown comedy. And then, as they followed those in the study, they found that those who watched comedy during their treatments, the treatments were more effective. The side effects were lower. They had a higher quality of life and longevity. And that's just simply from the power of positivity and joy and laughter and finding that within. So that's really powerful. Both of those are really kind of that emotional component to those factors. 

[0:52:15.0] Ashley James: Love it. 

[0:52:17.8] Liz Curran: The next one I will share is spiritual connection. This one doesn't tie to a specific religion. It's really just making sure that people realize the power of believing in something greater than themselves, whether that's standing overlooking the Grand Canyon and having awe of nature, or feeling connected to someone that's passed away. There are ways to tap into spiritual connection that don't revolve around religion, and it's important to have some kind of connection. Again, it doesn't matter what it is. It just matters that they had one. 

[0:53:01.1] Ashley James: And if you find significance in a religion, run with it.

[0:53:06.2] Liz Curran: Oh, absolutely. Yes. 

[0:53:08.7] Ashley James: It's whatever connection you have to the Source.

[0:53:11.4] Liz Curran: Yes. Exactly. 

[0:53:11.4] Ashley James: In the Bible alone, there are so many names for God. Like we don't need to get hung up on a name. It's an intimate and beautiful relationship you have to this connection we have to our creator. And what I love is the more I look into the science of the universe, the more it becomes irrefutable that there's a divine intelligence behind it. Chaos does not create life. We've never observed chaos and randomness creating life, right? And when we look deeper and deeper into life, we see that there's so much organization, but there's something behind the veil happening in the background. And it's that beautiful belief that we are connecting. We're part of something greater, and there's a purpose for us. That is what I want you to have. I want you to have that feeling that you've been created and divinely created for a purpose, and that you matter. 

[0:54:13.4] Liz Curran: Yes. Yes. And that also helps propel that desire to be here on this planet and gives us the essence of hope. If you don't have a belief that there's something greater out there, it probably would be very difficult to find hope from within to believe that you can heal. 

[0:54:32.8] Ashley James: I personally am Christian, and I lost my daughter two years ago. Some people turn away from God when tragedy happens, and I felt Him so strongly in my life. I don't know the grand scheme of things. You know what I mean? I believe I had this belief that everything happens for a reason. I don't know what the reason is for losing her, but I believe I will see her again one day. And God has a plan for me, and I trust God. And we put that on her gravestone. We put, “Trust God.” That was my husband who said that. I said, what do you want on her? We were planning it out. And he never grew up in religion. He just always believed that there's something out there. There's something greater, that we're connected somehow. And after she died, we both felt the Holy Spirit. We both felt God just hugging us and comforting us. And we turned to each other and he goes, I've never felt this before. He goes, I feel him. I feel like I feel God's presence, like just trying to comfort us. And so he said, I want to say, “Trust God” on her gravestone.

She's buried in a child cemetery. I weep every time I go there just for all the other moms, just because these babies were loved. Just loved so much and are loved for the rest of the parents lives. And so they're not forgotten. And so you don't have to be a Christian, but if you are, then I just want to say that God loves you. He loves you regardless of whether you're Christian or not. I just know, God has love to tap into. There's a divine love to tap into. And as a side note, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I'm Canadian, so I'm very polite. But there was a bumper sticker that made me laugh out loud. My son came running around the car and he's like, what? And I just couldn't stop laughing. There's a bumper sticker at our church on one of the cars that said, “It's okay. God doesn't believe in atheists either.” And so, a lot of people have been turned off by religion because of man-made corruption. It really hurts people's intimate connections with the Source, with creation. 

So it's not about joining yourself to something that you don't align with. It's just about you and God. It doesn't have to be anything in between you and God. It doesn't have to be a building. It doesn't have to be a person. It doesn't have to be an ideology, but just sit down with God. And just say, okay, show yourself. Increase your presence in my life so that I can know you're here for me. So I can know that I am part of something, and that opens up so much. It's really cool. He's a gentleman. This isn't about like, obviously God doesn't have a genitalia, like people get all hung up on he or she. My pastor says, God is a gentleman and he will wait to be invited in, so just ask. But it's really beautiful, and for me, I don't care what religion people join. I want them to have a personal experience of God's love for them. I think that opens the doorway for so much for that person. 

[0:58:08.8] Liz Curran: Yeah, and I think that as people who are in a situation with a really heavy diagnosis, one of the other factors is to follow your intuition. And I feel what you're saying about the spiritual connection. Similarly, the way that intuition has presented in the research is that once something really big has happened to you, that will change how you view life, whether it's grief or a diagnosis. For me, my loss brought an intense validation of spiritual connection that I will never lose. And I'm grateful that that was a silver lining that can come out of something that is so difficult. And having that personal belief, and having that spiritual connection, was really powerful for part of my healing and through my grief and acceptance of my loss. And what's interesting is that a lot in the research, the following your intuition is another factor. And what Dr. Turner's interviews, they shared that some people would actually start hearing voices when they received the information that they had a cancer diagnosis, and to the point where they thought they were going crazy. They really just could not believe that they were hearing something inside speak to them. And there's a lot to be said for when your brain your mind, and your body all have this physical shift together. Things get shaken up, and you might find a spiritual connection that you may not have had before. You may find an easier way to tap into your intuition, whether it's through voice or through dreams or through guided journaling and meditation. There are lots of different ways to connect with that intuitive part. But just the way I see it, like spiritual connection, those things can birth from a big life change.

[1:00:26.2] Ashley James: I love it, and listening to that soft, steel voice — and for me, intuition is always the first thing that comes. It's always the first voice. It's not as loud as the objections because that's your logic brain going, what is cancer? Like, you wake up in the morning and it's sunny outside, and this little voice says bring an umbrella, and then you're like, why do I need an umbrella? I don't need an umbrella. It's sunny outside. And I talk myself out of this little voice. and the voice doesn't fight back. It's just a suggestion. That's why I said God is a gentleman. You know what I mean? He's just so you know, this, and you're like, well, I don't need that. And then of course we're outside, and it starts raining, and we're like, oh, that's why my intuition said bring an umbrella. 

We often will argue or dispute the little voice, the intuition. And so, instead, we need to learn to slow down. Even just prayer, meditation, or just sitting with yourself — it doesn't have to be for long periods of time to sit with yourself. Take some five slow, deep breaths, focusing on your gut, focusing on the tension, and releasing the tension in your body, and just listen and be with yourself. Then ask yourself, okay, what do I feel? How do I feel about this decision? How do I feel about this information? And slow things down so you can hear. The first thing that happens is usually intuition. Slow it down and take it seriously instead of disregarding it. Because that's what the logic brain loves to do, to just squash the intuition. So I always kick myself 'cause I'm like, oh man, like, looking back, I'm like, I knew I should have done this, but I just overrode the intuition. 

[1:02:05.3] Liz Curran: Yeah, yeah, and that's easy to do. I mean, a lot of things can be really loud in people's heads. It depends on the person, obviously, but that's something that we work on with our clients and in our workshop. It is kind of teaching people that that is a scientific part of our body and that your intuition does exist. Also, like increasing positive emotions, it needs to be a muscle that we work so that we keep it present. And little ways that you can test stuff like that or to work the muscle would be if you're standing outside of two elevator doors, which one's going to open first. Or if your phone rings, or you get a ding that you have a message, take a pause and try to just in your gut, who do you think it is. There's little tiny ways that we can try to tap into the unknown without aid. 

[1:03:06.9] Ashley James: Love it. 

[1:03:07.3] Liz Curran: Yeah. And then we only have one factor left. It is having strong reasons for living, which, in other words, is the purpose. So, that is a really incredibly powerful factor and came up very clearly in the research that everybody needed to have a reason to be here, whether it was something little like they're not going to go anywhere until they get the scrapbook finished for their grandchild. Or they want to walk somebody down the aisle, or they have a mental note. 

I actually had a client fairly recently who talked about how all they wanted when they were diagnosed was to see their kids graduate from high school. And they started crying and crying. And I thought that's great. Their kids are going to high school now, or I guess when their kids are graduating high school. And she was like, but my kids are graduating high school now, as if she was about to expire because that was happening. And it was like, well, you just need to reset that goal, that's all. You're still going to be here, and there was no reason to assume that things had changed physically just because that monumental moment had finally come. She had made that achievement, and she just needed to set the sights a little further. 

[1:04:32.6] Ashley James: When you set up a timed goal, or a goal that's like by September 1st or by March 1st next year. When you say a timed goal, at 85% of the way towards your goal, create a new goal. We are driven by that momentum. We are driven by two things: the away from — so moving away from what we don't want — and moving towards what we do want. As we get close, like a train coming to the train station, it slows down. It's like, okay, I'm approaching my goal. I guess I'm slowing down. So we have to pick up the goal and throw it further down the timeline. We don't want to always focus on what we don't want to have, because that motivation fades the further we get away from what we don't have. Those are people who kind of bounce off zero, or they bounce off rock bottom because they're only focusing on what they don't want to have happened. They have to use what they don't want to launch them to, like, ‘I don't want to die of cancer. Okay, good. Let's get to work. And then it's like the bigger thing is they need to see the future. They need to see themselves a year, five years, ten years in the future, and have those visualizations of the goal. But always pick up the goals at 85% there and throw it further into the future and keep moving towards that.

[1:05:54.4] Liz Curran: I love that. It's a really good point. With the strong reasons for living, we define that a lot of times as being the opposite of depression. So because depression is defined by not having a will to live, so to your point of making sure that you continue to have something down the road, whether you have to push your goal back or go back or reset a goal or have a new target. You always want to have the reason that you want to be here, being bigger than the fear. So, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to die from cancer. Okay. Well, we don't want that, but what do you want? So trying to have that mindset switch of trying to think positively and setting, manifesting out there, putting in a lot of traction, whatever you want to call it. But what do you want to happen as opposed to fearing what you don't want to happen? 

[1:06:51.6] Ashley James: Exactly. Love it. So how long is Like these workshops and these books? How long has this been a movement? 

[1:07:03.2] Liz Curran: So Radical Remission, the first book came out in 2014. 

[1:07:07.9] Ashley James: Okay, yeah. You said that. Sorry. So it's been around the block, but it's not ancient. It's based on all the science. But it's been around long enough to prove itself, right? 

[1:07:20.5] Liz Curran: Oh yeah. There's lots and lots of healing stories on social media or in the newsletter every month. There's another healing story that's being shared. And that's what we're hoping to get from the podcast. It's for people to be able to hear the voices of these people with incredible healing from late-stage cancers. And that's something that's been really important to me after working with these incredible people, these human beings that we cross paths with and really sharing that cancer does not equal death sentence. And even if you have a metastatic diagnosis, that does not mean that that is something that you're going to have to have the rest of your life. There are so many amazing things that can happen and changes that you can make to improve your quality of life and your longevity. And I really can't wait to share the stories of people that are years out of their terminal diagnosis and thriving and just living such cool, incredible lives that I can't wait to share those. 

[1:08:28.5] Ashley James: Oh my gosh. Do you have any right now you could share? 

[1:08:32.4] Liz Curran: Stories?

[1:08:32.8] Ashley James: Yeah. 

[1:08:33.9] Liz Curran: Oh yeah. I have all kinds of stories. 

[1:08:36.9] Ashley James: I only want to hear ones that made you cry.

[1:08:40.9] Liz Curran: Oh interesting. Well, I'll tell you one that I think I always tend to default to the story because this guy's just an incredibly inspirational man and a friend now, a colleague. He's a radical remission coach now, but he is somebody who has two different kinds of cancer naturally, through the wild. Maybe a great future podcast guest for you. His name is Dean Hall, and he has a book just put out called The Wild Cure, and he has healed himself. He wanted to prove to the world that late-stage cancer patients could still have a life. So we're very aligned in that mission. This was years ago, when he had leukemia and lymphoma, when he had set a goal to make history by swimming the length of the Willamette River in Oregon. He put everything in place to do the swim over the course of a few weeks or a couple of weeks. And during his swim, he would go into hypothermia multiple times throughout this swim, and he had to shake off his coldness. He can't feel his extremities again before he would pop back into the water. At the end of his swim, after he's done, he makes history swimming the length of this river. I think it's like 183 miles or so.

[1:10:23.9] Ashley James: 187, I just looked it up.

[1:10:28.1] Liz Curran: And he ended up curing his leukemia with hypothermia. 

[1:10:32.4] Ashley James: Oh my God, I love it. 

[1:10:34.8] Liz Curran: Yeah. And so, I'll leave you with that being as to how he cured one of his cancers. But he did cure his other cancer also through nature, and he's an incredible story. The book's outlines — it's kind of a cool book the way that it's positioned because it's all the different interviews with the people that were part of that swim in different perspectives. So, it's a really cool approach to sharing the story in writing. So, Dean will share his story in our podcast. But I'm sure if you reach out to him, he may share his story with you as well.

[1:11:12.8] Ashley James: Oh I'll get his story. Don't worry about that.

[1:11:19.1] Liz Curran: He's a great guy with a great story and really just a great soul. He really has a beautiful energy about him in the way he shares his story. So I will say he is one. And then, of course, I got to throw it out to my business partner, Carla. She and I worked together virtually. I'm in New Jersey, and she's in the Chicago area, and she is seven years in remission or no evidence of disease from metastatic breast cancer. Through all of her radical remission, healing factor usage, and finding her way to healing, she, too, is someone who continues to just inspire me all the time with her ease at just having moved on from such a big thing in her life, and embracing every single minute with joy and interest. And she's just a very passionate person. So, she's another really great person to share her story. 

[1:12:29.4] Ashley James: Cool. Just at the top of your head, is there anyone you can share that really blew you away? 

[1:12:36.6] Liz Curran: Well, I have heard of some really funky healing modalities.

[1:12:45.8] Ashley James: Alright, let's talk about it. Sure, why not.

[1:12:47.7] Liz Curran: That's some fun things to share. I mean, people try some different things, and if you're not well-versed in the alternative cancer world, then you may not know about coffee enemas.

[1:13:00.4] Ashley James: Oh honey, you're preaching to the choir. I can't guarantee everyone, but that's not a taboo subject here. So, yeah, bring it.

[1:13:11.6] Liz Curran: I'm well-aligned with the audience then. But one of the coaches on my team in my private practice is actually called the Health Navigators. And there's a bunch of us that coach together over on that platform. And one of them is my friend, Emma, my fellow coach, and she shared that she had some kind of poison from a toad or something. The terminology is escaping me right now. But she said it was an incredibly detoxifying treatment, as ugly as it was in the moment. She said it was worth it. There's some pretty fun things to hear people help people heal. And they all say, I don't know if that helped or not, but it felt right.  

[1:14:05.9] Ashley James: Yes, it is important to understand when you're up against a major diagnosis. I know the scientific way was like, well, I should do one thing at a time just to make sure I know which would work. I have clients that's like, well, you've given me three things to do, but I'm just going to do one and see how it goes because I don't know which one is going to work. And I'm like, honey, if I had a major diagnosis, I wouldn't care which one worked. I would have thrown in the kitchen sink at this as long as it's not going to hurt me. It's all beneficial stuff. It's all building the body. And sometimes, to tip the scales, it takes multiple things. It takes licking a toad and drinking juice and putting coffee in your butt. I don't know. It's just like, do it. Do it all, because what's the alternative? Cut, burn and poison? And their success rates are horrible. And then, while you're doing their modalities, it's so sad. 

Here's the crazy thing — something as simple as fasting, like being on a three-day fast before chemo — they have done these studies and people have tremendous results. They don't lose their hair. They don't have nausea, and there's a plethora. I was just looking up this information. There are hundreds of studies on ginger juice, like just taking fresh ginger root or taking ginger capsules or whatever, but just ginger between 1 and 4 grams of ginger significantly reduces nausea. But of course, doctors are not trained in this. They're not looking at it. They're only looking at what drug they can give you, and they're going to give you some anti-nausea drug. And we see that just by incorporating herbs and roots like ginger, we're helping the body and supporting the body. It's like an immune booster. So we are supporting the whole body, not poisoning it. And it just drives me nuts that there are simple things if you decide to do chemo. It's proven that fasting helps before chemo. It's proven that ginger helps before chemo. These are studies, scientifically driven. And you can do ten different things, like watch comedy. You could go down and list this stuff if you wanted to also cut, burn, and poison. If you wanted to go that route. 

Like you said, part of radical remission could also be combining conventional. I really dislike this word ‘conventional', because we say conventionally great farm produce in the grocery store and I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm 43 years old. I remember when you could buy food that was real. I remember when carrots tasted like carrots and not cardboards, and tomatoes actually were like a food orgasm in your mouth, like tomatoes had flavor. Now, everything tastes like cardboard. And a conventionally grown apple — which I think you also would have learned this is in IIN — conventionally grown apple has fifty different chemicals sprayed on it. So, of course, the tree is up taking that as well, so it's not just like, oh, it's just purely apple. Just wash the apple. It's going to wash away all the fifty man-made chemicals that are forever chemicals.

[1:17:10.3] Liz Curran: Buy their special detergent in a squeeze bottle or spray bottle from the grocery store to clean off the pesticides. 

[1:17:17.1] Ashley James: That's ridiculous. So this idea that conventional is better, this is the Orwellian language. Again, everyone, get out your tenfold. We're going to fold a little hat to put on. You know you're in the right place when you get on my soapbox and grab my tinfoil. But this idea, like, look into Orwellian language because this is part of the PR. And if you look way back to Edward Bernays, who was the nephew, he was able to make women smoke cigarettes. Women didn't smoke cigarettes. It was very rare. Only the cowboys and the bad guys, and the jocks smoked, and it wasn't sexy or cool. They didn't have filters. It was gross, right? And he manipulated and brainwashed everyone to believe that it was part of the women's liberal movement. And so, women took up smoking, and of course, they had doctors think smoking is good for you. It's all a scam. PR is a scam, and the words they use are manipulative. 

So when they say conventional treatments versus alternative, you think, well, I'm going to go with conventional because that sounds proven. No, the conventional treatments are nouveau. And alternative treatments have been around for three thousand years. Now, listen, you're going to do what you're going to do and I respect whatever decision you make, but don't let the marketing brainwash you into not being fully informed.

[1:18:48.1] Liz Curran: I think one of the important things to do, because most of the people that I work with are doing an integrative approach, they are using both modalities and I can tell without a doubt that doing the combination is the secret sauce to their success with high quality of life, high energy ability that have a life outside of working through medical treatments. So, you just have to look at a doctor as someone who's staying in his lane. And there's a lot of things that they can't and won't say to protect themselves legally. 

[1:19:31.5] Ashley James: And that's so sad. 

[1:19:33.9] Liz Curran: The culture has created this. And back to this empowerment factor, the most important thing you can do is see that your doctor is just a human being, and he is in one lane. He can be part of your team, but he does not have to be the person telling you what to do. So make sure that you feel aligned with this person, that you agree with their bedside manner and their treatment plan for you, and that you believe that what they're going to do for you will help you heal. And if you don't believe that wholeheartedly, then that intuition in your body is going to speak, and it's going to counteract the benefits that you're gaining. It's not completely necessary, but it can impact that. So, knowing that these healing factors are all immune-boosting, scientifically proven to be immune-boosting, and unfortunately, it's up to us human beings to educate ourselves on things outside of medicine and find them on our own. That's what makes it seem alternative because it's not the ‘standard of care' being the norm.

[1:20:49.3] Ashley James: The for-profit industry. 

[1:20:52.4] Liz Curran: Right. And when you go outside of what's ‘normal', it can seem risky or there can be uncertainty around that. But the thing about these ten healing factors and just lifestyle changes, health coaches that would teach people, are that these are things that you can do on your own. I mean, does it cost you anything to increase your positive emotions? It takes some effort, so there's endless listening to your intuition. There's nothing you can do to pay for that. No, you can't buy your intuition. So there's a lot of things that can be done that are free, but you have to know that that's a healing factor and also have the ability and the tools to implement them. And that's where you and I both know, that's where health coaching comes in with the implementation. How do we do these things? 

[1:21:43.5] Ashley James: Yes. Love it. Liz, tell us about how we can follow you and how listeners can plug into what you're doing. What should the listeners know so they can take some actions? 

[1:22:00.7] Liz Curran: Yeah, absolutely. So, is going to be a great place to start. It will walk you through all of the different offerings, from what we do, whether it's sharing about the research. There's teacher training that we do for health coaches and medical practitioners who want to embody these healing factors into their current practices. We offer the radical remission workshops, constantly always having more workshops up on that website on the workshop page, and then there's 115 radical remission coaches certified at the moment. There's another training class starting in about a month. Those health coaches are all on the website as well so they can be connected with all over the world, all the different countries, all different languages. And the book, Radical Remission, itself has been translated into 22 or 23, I think. It recently got another language there. But you can find all that on the website. And the Radical Remission project is on Facebook and Instagram and always offering more inspirational stories to share. 

And if you are interested in connecting with me, myself, my practice is the Health Navigators. My website is, and you can find myself and my team there to join in what we call the Virtual Cancer Wellness Community, because we gather people who are like-minded and bring them together. We call them our inspired cancer patients because they are always kind of looking ahead. Like what's the next healing modality? And what else is out there and sharing with each other? So, having a community of like-minded people who are overcoming a significant diagnosis, that's where you will find that. 

[1:24:04.5] Ashley James: And it's not just cancer. Although, that's really what we're up against, but there's so many other diagnoses. I have a friend who's bedridden right now, and she's overcoming some major diagnoses. She was poisoned by Monsanto, it's such a long story. She's part of a giant class-action lawsuit, and it ate her body. The doctors thought she'd died years ago. And just because of natural medicine — looking at this list of ten things, she's following this, and I can't wait for her to one day be on your show because she's in the middle of it now. But I'm really looking forward to introducing this to her because she's like, oh yeah, I'm doing that. Maybe she needs to increase this and more of that. But she's doing all this stuff, and the doctors are shocked she's still alive. 

And then I introduced a type of therapy. It's a wearable technology. It's actually really affordable. And she's having amazing shifts, like leaps and bounds. One of the things it does, which made me think of the coffee enemas. Coffee enemas are messy or can be messy if you do it wrong, and also takes a lot of time. Because if you have cancer, the thing is, they say, do it six times a day. Who has the time to do six enemas a day? When I do a coffee enema, it's like half a day to work up to doing it, all the preparation and everything. So it's definitely emotionally costly. There's a lot of energy that goes into doing these coffee enemas. The whole point of a coffee enema is to stimulate more glutathione production, and one of the things this wearable technology does is it increases glutathione by 300%, and it's less than a dollar-a-day kind of thing. It's way more effective than oral. It's way more effective, and it lasts longer than IV. 

So, I had an episode about it a few podcasts ago. But if listeners are interested in gaining more information about that, I'd love to share. I'd love to provide. I've got a whole email I've compiled with all these videos and all the science behind it that I send out to anyone who wants it. You can go to, and then in the menu it says “Work With Ashley James.” Just click on that, and then click on the first session down. It's a free 15-minute phone call, and I'll talk to you about your health, the things you want to overcome, and I'll send you all the science, the information and stuff, and help you if you'd like to try it. It also has a money-back guarantee. I pretty much don't work with any company that doesn't, because I want a company to stand behind their product. It's been around for 20 years. It has over a hundred studies, and I have about 120 clients right now using it with incredible success. But one factor is that it increases glutathione by 300%. For me, coffee enema is great. But if you could just wear a little technology and go about your day and have an even better result than oral or IV, or messy coffee enemas, and it's affordable, then it's a no-brainer. 

I've seen my son, his allergies are significantly reduced, which is really exciting since I introduced this to him. Yeah. So this is what I'm all about. Learning about these off-the-wall, not conventional but still science-based, still proven modalities that could be the determining factor for someone. That could be the difference that makes a difference. But we have to do all ten steps because, like you said, it's been proven that all these together really shift things for people, whether it's cancer or something else. We want that shift. We want you to get to that place in your life where you are thriving, and that's what Learn True Health is. It's thriving on every single degree of your life. That's what I want for everyone. Yeah. Liz. I know I've thrown many questions at you. We talked so much. But is there anything left unsaid? Is there anything you want to make sure that you leave the listener with today? 

[1:28:17.4] Liz Curran: I would say if this resonated with you, please, please reach out for a Radical Remission workshop. We do free info sessions all the time. You can find them on under the workshop page. And you can learn more about the healing factors and how the workshop works. The workshop itself is usually about a 5-week commitment. It's 10 hours and all done virtually. There are local ones on the website occasionally, if one of the teachers can do something locally to where they live, or retreats, and we hope that we can answer any questions for you there. 

[1:29:01.1] Ashley James: Awesome. Thank you so much, Liz. It was such a pleasure having you on the show. I just know introducing people to this concept has been a breath of fresh air, just like, yes, this is what I've been looking for. It's proven we can heal ourselves. Our body has a God-given ability to heal ourselves. We grew ourselves from two tiny half cells that came together and made one cell. We came from one cell. And now we're 37.2 trillion cells, and if that wasn't miraculous for you, cellular biologists have described the human cell as having more things going on inside that cell than Manhattan, the entire island of Manhattan. Like, you can think about all the organizations that bring the groceries in and get the garbage out and get the electricity in. Just all the things that happen in the hustle and bustle of Manhattan. There's more things that are happening inside the human cell wall. They're complex cells, right? There's so much going on inside our body that we're still learning every day. We're still learning new things. There's still undiscovered territory, and it's miraculous and beautiful.

And so, we're like, back in the day with the leeches, right? Like, doctors who are like, yup, we got to blood let. That's the way to do it. Whatever your problem is, we gotta get some blood out of you. We got to bleed the humor out of you. And these doctors are standing there with their lab coats, and they're telling you, well, you're only going to live for three months if you don't immediately cut off your breast and get some radiation. Think about it. The radiation causes cancer, but we're going to cure and kill just the cancer, but we're definitely not going to hurt any other part of your body. Well, maybe a few cells, but you will be fine. And it's kind of wild to think like this is the only model we're allowed is to cut, burn, and poison. In the United States, it is actually legally meant to be protected, right? But if you go to Europe, they're allowed to use hyperbaric chambers. They're allowed to use ozone. It's part of their scientific model for helping people overcome. And then you have Mexico, which is like a free-for-all of natural modalities that may work or may not. But at least you have access to do it. And it is such a wild thing. But to take the advice of a doctor with a lab coat and say, this is the final word, that's like going to a doctor five hundred years ago and saying, well, okay, I totally believe you doc. We gotta put some more leeches on me. They only have one piece of the pie, and we still, as humans, do not fully understand the human body. 

We still do not understand fully how our cells work. So to have a doctor say, this is the way and the only way, is ludicrous. That's why I love what you're sharing today. What you shared today, Liz, is that it has opened our eyes that our body can heal itself and that we can take charge. In NLP or neuro-linguistic programming, there's a saying, ‘who's driving the bus' and you started off by saying that we want you to empower yourself. And that's you stepping. Just imagine yourself visually, you stepped from being the kid in the bus. Now, you stepped over from that seat, in the bench seat. I want you to stand up in your mind. Go sit down in the driver's seat and put your hand on the stick shift. In your mind, you know how to drive a stick? Okay, if you don't. And you're going to drive that bus. 

This is your life. You get to drive. You're the one driving the bus of your life, and you get to build your team of professionals that are there to help you and support you. And you get to fire professionals if they're not in alignment with your goal of 100% radical remission. And I love that you can plug into this whole group of the support network for radical remission to see that it's possible, and to have other people say, yes, it is possible. It's a worthy goal. You are worthy of this. So thank you. Thank you, Liz, for coming today and sharing this. Please come back on the show anytime you have more to share. We'd love to hear more. 

[1:33:08.3] Liz Curran: Yeah, it's been so much fun chatting with you and getting to share the Radical Remission stuff. And I look forward to connecting again in the future. 

[1:33:17.3] Ashley James: Yes. And I am going to be your number one fan the moment you hit publish on the first episode of the Radical Remission podcast. Can't wait to hear it. 

[1:33:25.3] Liz Curran: Thank you so much.


Get Connected with Liz Curran!


Website – Radical Remission

Website – Health Navigators






Books by Dr. Kelly Turner


Radical Hope

Radical Remission

Aug 9, 2023

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508: Healing Waters: Science of Structured Analemma Water with Dr. Eric Laarakker

Ashley James And Dr. Erik Laarakker

Dr. Eric Laarakker discusses the paradigm-shifting concept of using Analemma Coherent Structured Water to support the body's natural healing abilities. Dr. Laarakker emphasizes the scientific basis and studies that back the effectiveness of this structured water device, challenging mainstream beliefs. The conversation delves into the partnership with Viome to investigate how drinking Analemma water can positively impact the gut microbiome, a crucial element for overall health. Dr. Laarakker's holistic approach to medicine is rooted in the idea that the body possesses inherent healing power, and his work involves resetting the body's information systems to trigger this process. He draws a parallel between the body's functioning and that of a bioquantum computer, emphasizing the significance of water and information in this context.


  • Using Analemma Coherent Structured Water to enhance the body's healing capabilities
  • How consuming Analemma water can positively influence the gut microbiome
  • Activating the body's intrinsic healing potential by resetting its information systems
  • Dr. Laarakker's extensive experience with animals and children
  • Exploring photon emissions from living organisms
  • Noteworthy experiments involving structured water on plants


Hello, true health seeker, and welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health Podcast. I'm going to make this super and jump right into today's episode because it's such a good interview. Oh my gosh, the amount of times my jaw hit the floor is amazing. I can't wait for you to hear it. But first, I have to say a big shout-out to my husband. Today is our 15th wedding anniversary. He's my best friend. He's my teammate, my partner in life, my partner in business, my partner in every aspect, and I feel blessed beyond measure that he's in my life. So, I just want to let you know that if it weren't for him, I wouldn't even be here doing this podcast. You see, he's my rock, and he supports me so much that I just want to basically say my little love message to him. Thank you, Duffy, for everything. I love you so much. And I'm so grateful I can be here helping all of you guys, helping spread this information of health and healing. Our body has an amazing ability to heal itself. We have a God-given ability to heal ourselves. And if you're sick and suffering, I'm here to tell you that there is a way. And through all the information that I bring to you on my show, I hope that I can give you the answers that you're looking for. I was sick and suffering for many years, and my husband married me even though I was sick and suffering. And together, we went down this rabbit hole after rabbit hole, discovering what true health is. Now I have shed all those diagnoses, all those diseases and illnesses and syndromes.

I'm still in my health-healing journey, but I no longer have type 2 diabetes, chronic adrenal fatigue, chronic infections, infertility, or polycystic ovarian syndrome. I am a world's better than I was. My husband has also gone through major transformations as well mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and physically, both of us. And I've learned so much from my own show. I'm just sitting in the audience with you guys, just munching on the popcorn, going, “What? I can't believe this.” So, although I consider myself a health expert because I've dedicated tens of thousands of hours of research and diving in personally to help myself heal, and then also over the course of the last ten years helping clients support their body's ability to heal themselves and helping them overcome major health obstacles, I have seen people heal and recover from things that they were told over and over again by medical doctors and the mainstream medical establishment that they have to be on drugs the rest of your life and they'll always be sick. And I'm here to tell you that, most likely, that is not the case. We can support our body's ability to heal itself. 

Today's episode is one of those things. It's one of those things that is totally outside of the realm of mainstream, and yet, there are plenty of studies and science to prove that we can use the analemma structured water device to support our body's ability to heal itself. We're going to get into that with Dr. Eric Laarakker right now. I want you to go to to check it out. Read all the studies for yourself, and they're to be publishing even more studies because their ongoing studies are constantly coming out with them. I'm super excited that Dr. Eric announced that they're partnering with Viome. I have two interviews with the Viome CEO and the top scientist. You can go to and search Viome to listen to those. It's all about the genetic expressions of your microbiome, which is absolutely fascinating. But they are partnering with them to do some really interesting tests to show how drinking analemma water improves your gut microbiome, and it's all about the gut. Everything is about the guts. We heal the gut and get strong, healthy, robust microbiomes. Everything else is so much easier to fall into place. And if you don't have that, that is one of the major pillars of health. So, I'm very excited about the ongoing studies. So, constantly check in on that. Go to and use coupon code LTH, as in Learn True Health, to get your listener discount. Then, come join the Facebook group, the Learn True Health Facebook group and join the conversation because we're talking about it. Some people say, “I don't taste the difference,” then people jump in and go, “I definitely notice the difference.”

And it's okay. It's okay that some people can taste or feel a mouth difference when they're drinking this water, and some people. Some people just aren't as necessarily as kinesthetically sensitive as others. But the real thing we're looking for is the proof in the pudding, whereas the real thing we're looking for is the results. That's why I want you to come join the Facebook group if you're going to drink the analemma water, and I'd love for you to share your experience. We've got plenty of listeners sharing that they definitely feel a difference, just like I did and just like so many others in the studies that they've done. So, thank you so much for being a listener. And thank you so much for sharing this podcast with those you care about. Together, we're turning this ripple into a tidal wave and helping as many people as possible to learn true health. 

[0:05:40.3] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I'm your host, Ashley James. This is Episode #508. I am so excited for today's guest. It's been months that I've been waiting to have today's guest on the show. I'm going to do my best to say your beautiful name, Dr. Eric Laarakker. Did I say it?

[0:06:05.8] Dr. Eric Laarakker: It's almost perfect, thank you.

[0:06:10.5] Ashley James: I almost got it. You know, I got an app on my phone for my son, who we homeschool. He is eight years old, and he wants to learn languages. I thought maybe he'd learn French or Spanish, and he wanted to learn Norwegian. So we're hearing these very different accents as he's been studying these languages. He's kind of popping through different languages that we're not used to hearing. Your last name reminded me of some of the words he's learning. 

[0:06:42.4] Dr. Eric Laarakker: You know, there are only five million people who live in Norway, so why does he want to learn their language?

[0:06:49.6] Ashley James: I don't know. 

[0:06:51.5] Dr. Eric Laarakker: But anyway, I'm not from Norway. I'm from The Netherlands.

[0:06:55.5] Ashley James: Oh, yes. No, I'm sorry. I know you're from The Netherlands, and it's the beautiful sound of your name that reminded me of the interesting language that my son is trying to learn right now. We tried to explain to him that it's a very small country, but he's stubborn, so he's becoming a linguist.

[0:07:13.9] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Well, good for him. He should be stubborn.

[0:07:20.0] Ashley James: You know, that's a gift. It's hard on the parents, but it's really good when they grow up. And he's an independent thinker, which is great. One thing he's loved since we introduced it to our household has been the analemma, the ability to structure our own water. It's interesting to watch our 8-year-old really get excited about something, when he starts to go, “Wow, this is interesting. I can feel the taste. I can feel the difference in the water analemma. I can even taste the difference in the water. I can feel the difference in how I feel. We have used the analemma to structure all of our water since November. So it's been a good nine or ten months or around there that my family has been only drinking structured water, and there's been a lot of really cool changes that have taken place in our lives. And we noticed that we jumped out of bed in the morning. We sleep deeper. We feel happier. One thing that helped me is — our daughter passed away two years ago, and I was going through PTSD and grief — when I introduced the water. I've been doing a lot of stuff to heal. But when I started drinking the water, I noticed, within days of beginning to drink the water, the constant low-grade sadness that was in my heart all the time, just sadness in my chest, had been replaced with a constant joy — just this low-grade, just background noise, just feeling of happiness. I haven't stopped drinking the water because I love this feeling.

[0:09:06.0] Dr. Eric Laarakker: That's so beautiful to hear. Thank you so much. 

[0:09:09.4] Ashley James: I want to have you here today to understand the science behind it because we feel like it has transformed our lives suddenly. It's subtle, and then I look back and realize how significant the changes are that we feel healthier in our bodies. And then, of course, we start putting it on our house plants, and they started growing like we're in the jungle. And I thought, man, this is just proof like, “Look, our house plants are doubling in size.” And we've had them for years, and now they're doubling in size after we started feeding them the structured water. And, of course, this is how I feel inside my body. Now, I'm kind of getting a visual of what's happening inside my body with my husband. So, Eric, I'm really excited to have you here today to dive in.

[0:09:54.2] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Well, thank you so much. I love those stories. 

[0:09:56.5] Ashley James: Yeah, absolutely. Listeners can go to water and use coupon code LTH to get themselves an analemma device that you place in your water and stir, and it allows you very quickly to transform the water to permanently structure it to coherent structured water. It is very interesting because it's like a science experiment. Every time my friends come over, I do it for them, and I give them a glass that hasn't been stirred and a glass that has the analemma device, and I blind test them. “Which one is the stirred one?” And they all cannot believe the difference. It definitely has a mouth feel. The water feels wetter. The water feels smoother, silkier, and wetter. How interesting. So, I'm really excited to dive into the science today. Before we get into that, can you share a bit about your background? I know that you have extensive knowledge around holistic care and that you practice as a veterinarian, and this is right up your alley. You're just as passionate, maybe even more passionate, about structured water and how we can use it to support the body's ability to heal itself and the planet's ability to heal itself. What happened in your background that led you to get so excited about this?

[0:11:14.7] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Well, it's a long story. To be honest, I finished university already in 1993, so that's about thirty years ago. Actually, already in the university, I had some issues with the Western way of looking at medicine. Usually, we don't read the symptoms, but we never treat the origin or the cause of the disease. And actually, a lot of problems that we face are chronic. There are multiple causes and not just one cause. Causes could be food, environmental, congenital, emotional, microbial, toxins, etc. So, I went into holistic medicine, and holistic medicine is about trying to find the cause of the problem and treat that problem. So if you go back to the root of the problem, heal that, and then actually, the body will heal itself.

Our body has an amazing capacity to heal itself. It just has to push the right button, and the train will run by itself. That's how I usually try to explain it. An issue is we don't really understand exactly how our body functions or how our internal communications system works. Our body, while more and more has been looked at as a bioquantum computer, it's called quantum biology finally to me. I'll look at it that way. Your body is like a quantum computer. If you manage to reset a computer, the body will heal itself. Actually, as doctors, we don't heal our bodies. We try to reset the information system so it can heal itself. We are just nature's assistants.

We don't heal anything, and if you combine everything, that's true holistic medicine to me. Like in my clinic, we treat horses, dogs, cats, and human beings with a whole staff of veterinarians and human doctors. Personally, 50% of my patients are humans and 50% are horses. We use a lot of different modalities to heal. Actually, my first acupuncture school for humans was already way back in 1986, so that's a long time ago.

And the reason was healing and healing energy; trying to understand how our body functions has been an obsession for me since I was a little kid. I was growing up in the forest next to the river, and nature and water. Actually, they were always my biggest teachers. I spent all of my life almost in the forest and near the water, and really, they were my teachers. They taught me a lot. After my first acupuncture school, the holistic way of thinking grabbed me so much that I traveled literally all over this planet to study all different modalities in holistic medicine, both in humans and veterinarians, like homeopathy, herbal medicine, chiropractic osteopathy, energy treatments, and everything. And then we started to combine all of them in our clinic, and it gave us completely new ways of treatments, and that's what we apply now in our clinic. Water and information, both of them play a key role in all these modalities.

Actually, working with animals gave me the most knowledge, and it was beautiful. You talk about your kid already sensing what's good for them is the difference in the water. It's the same with animals, and they don't have a placebo effect. If it works, it works, especially in chronic diseases. Since I'm a veterinarian of over 30 years, I have seen many of my patients for a whole life, and that's usually a chance you don't get as a human doctor. So it can give you a lot of knowledge about how you can have a long and healthy life. That's why I still like working with animals. It's very pure. It's the same as working with kids. I also work a lot with kids. They are a lot purer, so if I push the right button, it is just easier to cure them than most grown-ups, unfortunately.

[0:15:17.6] Ashley James: And that's so true about the placebo effect. Children and animals do not have the placebo effect. So when you see something working with babies, toddlers, and horses, then it really gives us an insight. So you have a beautiful background. What led you to work with analemma, with the structured water, and study it? 

[0:15:46.4] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Water was always talking to me. Water is very important. If you look at the body, 99% of our body molecules are water. We usually say 70%, but it's in mass. But actually, 99% of your body molecules are water. If that is so, then water is the most important ingredient in your body. And about seventeen years ago, I met my colleague, Dolf Zantinge. Actually, it was quite a funny story. I was giving a 60-day course on how to measure energies in and out of the body with a Lecher antenna. And that's how we measure our patients. And it's a system we developed over 30 years. I can only think in energy, not in the physical part, if you know what I mean. Everything which is physical is also energy. Dolf was one of my students, but I only saw him on the first day. A lady told me that he was so allergic to horses that he couldn't join the classes anymore. And since I teach him at a horse clinic at ten and the classes were not an option anymore, but Dolf was very eager to learn how to work with the Lecher antenna, so I gave him private lessons on that. That's how we came to talk and share our ideas and our worries about this planet and the fast speed at which everything goes down, especially the whole immune system of this planet but also in humans and animals. 

Thirty years ago, we didn't see any, almost no allergies, no auto-immune diseases, no cancer in horses. But we see it daily these days. So, something is happening over there. So we decided to join efforts and start a laboratory to understand something more about what life is about. We don't understand what life is. Nobody knows what life is. So in the last decade, actually, we have been working on this water. We know that there is more between heaven and earth than science wants to make us believe. Nobody knows what life actually is, but mankind acts as if it knows everything and that we are a coincidence on this planet. I personally don't believe that. Since we were very concerned at what pace the planet is moving to destruction and, like I said, having a chronic disease becomes the norm, and life shouldn't be. So we decided, like I said, to just start a laboratory just to do open science and hopefully find something which is easier to use, to help to restore diseases and this planet. Although I did a lot of modalities, almost all the modalities you can find in regular and holistic medicine, I still miss a thing. And that is what I call the life force, so to speak — the glue between all these different modalities. And that's how we came up into water. 

[0:19:05.0] Ashley James: Is water the life force? Can you explain that a bit more? 

[0:19:08.7] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Maybe I can explain a little bit more how we got into water. And of course, like I said, water has always been very important in my life. But first, what we did was dig into all the scientific possibilities that were available to study life, especially on energy levels in plants, animals, and humans. Then we stumbled upon the work of the famous Professor Fritz Popp from Germany, who proved that all living beings are midlight, the so-called biophotons. The amount of biophotons says something about the health of that system.

By that time, Fritz Popp had ended his career, and we were able to take over the whole laboratory, including the scientist, and move it from Germany to the Netherlands. We want to find out what were the most important parts of living systems and how we could influence it in a positive way. We didn't actually know what to look for. We just started more or less blindly to see what research will bring us. Soon, we discovered that water and information were a crucial part in the biological systems. So then we started to focus on water. 

[0:20:16.9] Ashley James: A lot of us think water is just like a rock. It's just inert. It's just a substance that isn't alive. And the modern-day idea of water is that we should sterilize it, that it's dead. We should sterilize it, and that's the best way. Or filter it, sterilize it; that's the best way to drink it. Or manipulate it in some way so that we have to remove chemicals from it. Make sure there's no bacteria in it. But there's no concept of the structure of how the molecules that exist inside the fluid can influence us. People just think water is water, like dirt is dirt. It's not that important. A rock is a rock. It's not alive. And your experience is quite different.

[0:21:17.1] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Completely different. Actually, we bought a 6-acre greenhouse to do just tests on tomatoes. We decided, okay, let's go for a little bit easier, a challenging test in the beginning, done on humans and animals. So we bought a 6-acre greenhouse, and we were just testing on all kinds of vegetables, tomatoes, cucumbers, et cetera, and measuring the biophotons. Of course, they have a very short life cycle, so it's easier to test. And just by changing the structure of the water, we saw a tremendous difference in the amount of biophotons. So the amount of light which is in a tomato, from 60% up to 150%, 200% more light emission is constantly over when we use analemma water. We tried all kinds of different water. We tried to do different things with it and then see what happens with it. But actually, one of the most important things we could do, an easy thing we could do, is to change the amount of biophoton in a plant. So, if you have more biophotons, it actually means more mitochondrial activity. So we have a healthier plant.

When we're very sure about the outcome, then, of course, we start digging into other kinds of research because measuring biophotons in humans is not easy. That's why we went into other kinds of research, like the microbiome brainwaves, ATP GlycanAge, etc. And every time we did research, we saw there was a difference. For me, it is very easy. Now, it's very easy. Of course, the issue is we only use our eyes. So, only what we see is what we believe. But if you look at what we can see, it's just a few nanometers of the whole electromagnetic spectrum, and there's so much more that we don't see, which is immeasurable, and water plays a key role in this. Water by itself is a broadband absorber for all the electromagnetic fields, only not if you conduct in visible lights and about a few feet, which water doesn't absorb that well.

It's such a genius — water. Think about a very simple thing. You learn at school that we live on this planet because we have an atmosphere around this planet, and this atmosphere absorbs about 70% of the income of harmful radiation. Now, that's very smart of water. But if you look at the whole electromagnetic spectrum, maybe it becomes a little bit difficult. But if you go from the ultra-low frequencies, radio waves and microwave, gigahertz, infrared, visible light, UV Express cosmic armor, so from low to high frequency — from this whole scale, the only part water doesn't absorb actually is the visible light and part of the UV which are only two of the octaves of the whole spectrum. It is so genius because if what would absorb the visible light as much as X-rays and cosmic armor, etc., then it will be dark on this planet.

That's very clever of water. All these things are just in front of us, and actually, you can find them on Wikipedia, but we don't think about it. So, what is a broadband absorber for almost all electromagnetic frequencies, and we are electromagnetic beings? It's very simple, and there's a beautiful book written, the Electromagnetic Manwhich was written, I think, twenty to thirty years ago, which beautifully scientifically explained that we are electromagnetic beings.

And so our water — now we go back to the body — if you push all the vapor which is in the atmosphere, push it together into a liquid form, it's only 3 cm of water. Only 3 cm. Think about it. Now, go back to your body. 99% of your body molecules are water. So, you are the definition of broadband absorber for all the electromagnetic frequencies. 

[0:26:01.1] Ashley James: Boom. That hit me like a ton of bricks. Oh my gosh. Think about the cell towers, all the electromagnetic, just static out there, the frequencies. I'm surrounded right now by wires and electronics. And thinking about all the different broadband, all the different signals and frequencies all across that spectrum, and if you’re 99% water, we’re clearly highly affected by these entire spectrum of frequencies. 

[0:26:47.3] Dr. Eric Laarakker: And it's a big issue to me, to be honest, and science defines the harm done by EMFs by how much your body has been heating up. I mean, it's just a definition they give. And if we get the whole perspective that we are a broadband absorber for all the electromagnetic waves — maybe I can tell you a funny story I did last year. I was in Corsica with my kids and my wife, and in the South, they have this beautiful place over there which is on top of a mountain. More or less in the harbor, you park your car. So we went up to this village and we could hardly see somewhere down there, where my car was parked and I showed him one thing. I used my automatic key for the car, when I pushed it to open the car, you didn't see anything. Then I held it against my head, I pushed it and then we saw our car opening. So our head full of water is an antenna. We are antennas.

[0:27:51.7] Ashley James: I learned that from my husband. When the car is on the other side of the parking lot, we can't find it. He puts the car key, the key fob to his chin. He puts it right to his head, and he says, we act as an antenna, and it always works. It always works. He can hit the alarm button because we can't find the car. I mean that almost never happens. We know where we parked our car. But if we get turned around or it’s like Ikea parking lot and where we have no idea where we are, you can hit that button and then we hear our car alarm way off in the distance really far away. But if you just stood there and clicked it, nothing would happen. But when you put it against your head, you are the antenna now and it always works. 

[0:28:35.5] Dr. Eric Laarakker: So it also works the other way around. 

[0:28:39.8] Ashley James: Because water is that absorber, the broadband absorber. So, 99% of us by molecule is water, where we are highly absorbing that entire spectrum. But how beautiful and brilliant and intelligent it is that there's this huge spectrum that we can't see. We're kind of in the middle, right? There's like all the stuff we can't see that is lower than our vision. All the stuff we can't see that’s higher than our vision. We’re sort of somewhere in the middle in terms of our very small bandwidth of light that we can perceive through our eyes, and water absorbs everything on each side but not in our own vision. That is brilliant. I love looking at science to see that there's God, to see that there's this beautiful intelligence behind the scenes. The more I look at science, the more I see it's irrefutable. This is not random. This is so beautiful. 

[0:29:42.5] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Life wouldn’t be possible on this planet if water would absorb everything. It is as simple as that. And what I purposely don't understand, I mean, the science is in front of us. You can find it everywhere. And people still misuse it. Personally, I don't understand why we do any research on this whole 5G satellite stuff, etc. It's almost like the microwave was sending to this planet its complete destruction. To be honest, we proved already that our water is quite stable in it. So that's a lucky part of it. But still, I'm concerned about the trees and everything around us. We are just bombarding everything with loads and loads of the wrong information.

We are electromagnetically beings and we used to a certain amount, which is been there for ages and, but the last, especially, 20 years we're bombarding ourselves constantly with a lot of information. That's one of the reasons why I always tell people, okay? It's very hard, not to deal with it. But at least what you can do always switch Wi-Fi off at night. You will sleep a lot better, if you do. And almost everybody I know uses the phone as alarm clock. Why?

In our house, the mobile phones. Also, not with our children are allowed in the bedroom, never ever, put your Wi-Fi and your Bluetooth on only if you need it. Both of my kids and my wife, when I put the Bluetooth on they feel it immediately in 2 seconds. The issue is, if we have, if you're confronted with so much radiation then more or less, you get used to it. But it doesn't mean that's how harmful compared with smoking. If you smoke one cigarette, you become sick, but if you start keep on smoking a package today, you won't feel it in the end anymore, but still harmful. So, people would tell me “I don't feel it.” Well, it doesn't mean that is not harmful and we created a lot with all the devices in your home. Everything these days is on Wi-Fi, Smart, everything is smart, smart watch, everything. Actually, not at my house, I don't want to have it.

[0:32:19.06] Ashley James: Smart. I always sleep better when the power goes out. When we have a storm and the power goes out, I sleep so well, or go camping, I sleep so well. The other day, our son was over at Grandma's for a sleepover, and I had to have my phone on just in case an emergency happened, we have to stay in contact and I got such poor sleep not because I was worried about it but just because of my phone was on and I try to keep it as far away from me as possible, it's still in the room, and I don't know, I could feel it. I don't I don't like that. Definitely, I don't like it. I've done a few interviews on EMF. But one of them is really interesting, I mean all of them are interesting, but this one, Episode 445 with Arthur Firstenberg he wrote The Invisible Rainbow, now coming with the analogy you've given us, listeners, if you haven't already go back and listen to Episode 445. With this knowledge that your 99% by-molecule water, it is a Broadband absorber and then go listen to his interview and his books are phenomenal. He shows that every single major health like pandemic that's occurred in the last over a hundred years has been directly related to when a technology gets introduced and he shows it all, it's really, really interesting. But here you have a more proof. You know, we are made up of a Broadband absorber. And now we're introducing these frequencies into our atmosphere, into our bodies, and look what happens. It's haywire, it's causing the whole system to go haywire. So let's go back to the tomatoes. You wanted to measure the biophotons from plants and using structured water, see how that could help. Could you go back a little bit before that? What made you guys decide that water needed to be structured in the first place?

[0:34:33.88] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Well, very simple. Like I said, 99% of our body molecules is water, so water must be important. I always had this feeling that water was talking to me. So already before we even did this research, I was digging into water-structuring devices.

There are many over there. There's a lot to find information over Victor Schouberger. He's one of my heroes and he did a lot of research on it in the beginning of the 1900s already. And if you look at how when water is vortexing, what the energy, how it gives. If you walk in the mountains when the water comes down with a waterfall and it starts vortexing, it gives you completely different kind of energy. So we already knew there is something there about water. So we started to test all kind of different devices which were on the market and they gave some results. It's not that they don't give any results but they had one big problem and they were not stable. After, it depends on how you shield it, after being produced, it works like for half a minute up to one and a half day, depends on how we shielded with aluminium foil or stuff like that, but then it went down. So we knew it was not good enough and all of those devices actually they are made out of crystals, vortexes, electricity, et cetera.

And so we knew this was not good enough, we had to dig deeper into it. And so actually what we did, we first did a whole study for years on different geometric forms, metals and cosmology, before we were able to combine all of it in one device. It's not like this device was there from one to the other day. We did research at it and we saw an amazing improvement already on those biophotons. But then we discovered that we needed more and that lightning played a role. Try one thing, after lightning, go to a lake and see how it feels. It is like the water's been charged over there. So we needed to add lightning to it. But then still, it went better. Bio-photon emission became better. But then we realized we need something more. And then I go back a little bit to the discussion before. We need to get it open to the cosmos. Because we need information out of the cosmos. We are constantly bombarded from out of the cosmos with all kinds of electric-magnetic frequencies, with everything out of there, from all the planets, the moon, the sun, etc.

Why do you charge your energy in the sun? Because actually you're charging your water system. So then we created a third device and to make it more open to the cosmos. And then we realized another thing is that biology is never ever the same. And that's a big mistake that we make in medicine anyway. We always think that everything is the same. Nobody is the same, luckily. And even your liver, your kidneys, we found out there is a rhythm in energy. So even the frequencies of your liver for your kidney, everything in your body is actually changing every day. And so that's when then we realized that if we want to make the mother water it would take us a year. So it takes us a year to make the mother water because we want to have all the seasons in. And that's actually the reason why we call it Analemma water. Look at the internet what the Analemma is and you see this infinity sign. It's the position of the sun to the moon and it's very important.

So if you want to have all the frequencies in, all seasons in, we need one year to create it. And then we knew, okay, now it's ready. And actually from that moment on, we start putting it on the market. But it took, actually the whole research until where we are now is about 17 years.

[0:39:04.93] Ashley James: Wow.

[0:39:06.46] Dr. Eric Laarakker: And because we were not doing this research trying to find a device and sell it for a lot of money or whatever. We really were trying to find something which helped. And we want to be sure scientifically that it does what we think what it does. So we heavily invested last year, constantly we're heavily investing in research.

A double-blind placebo-conformed randomized research in ATP. We did in a microbiome, brain wave studies, etc. It's constantly going on. Constantly we are doing research.

[0:39:51.08] Ashley James: I want to talk about the research for sure. I'd like to know when you first started drinking the structured water after you created the mother, and for those who haven't listened to the first episode that we did, Episode 498 about the Analemma Water, and the inside of this device, and they call it a wand. You're not performing magic. It's not, but it is the shape of a wand that you would stir the water, and inside it is the mother water. And the mother water, like you said, takes you a year to make, and that it connects with, and you can explain this much better than I can, but it connects with your water and tells the water inside the glass to structure in a way that is coherent and beautiful, not chaotic like the structure of our water that comes out of our pipes, comes out of our municipal water system. And we did dive more into that in Episode 498, but I'd like to go back. When you first made the mother water and you first started making structured water with it and you first started drinking it, what was your experience?

[0:41:08.70] Dr. Eric Laarakker: I will never forget because actually at that moment we were doing research in the south of Germany in organic farm and the device, our first device is huge. It's like one by one by one meter. And very heavy.

So we brought the whole device over there and it was very exciting for us. We need to write pressure and stuff like that. So when the first water came out, we drink it. And it was for me, it was like we knew this is it. It was like, how can I say? For me, it was like an explosion of light in my body. I never had it after that.

Yes, how can I say? It was like a very instant change. And also because we were excited and we want to know and to test it and to drink it and feel what it is. I will never forget this moment. We were drinking it. We looked at each other and we were like instantly happy. Let's put it that way.

[0:42:17.60] Ashley James: That's it. That's me too. I have to tell you, I was really, really, really skeptical. I was so, so skeptical, but it was introduced to me. It was offered. Just try it. I was like, okay. And I remember I was standing at the kitchen and I got out two glasses. I filled them both with our filtered water.

And it's municipal water, so it's been through all the pipes and through the system. The chaos is known. If you if you just imagine in your mind how many pipes and 90-degree angles and near power lines and just like how bastardized this how abused the water is. Fluoride, chlorine, trace pharmaceuticals, just the way they scrub it, all this stuff is, it's not natural, right? It's obviously, the water's been very abused. And now that we understand water absorbs, water absorbs information, it absorbs energy. And so it's just taken a beating, but before it comes out of your tap, and then I put it through a little plastic filter that filters the crap that they put in, fluoride, chlorine, that kind of stuff. And I put the water into two glasses, and I stood there and I counted, then I stirred for about a minute and I brought the glass to my lips and I took a sip and I said, no way. I said it out really, I said it out loud, really loud. And I just, a big smile came across my face. I said, I cannot believe it. And then I took another sip. I said, no way. This is absolutely, and it just hit me. I couldn't believe it. I was kind of freaking out. I was called over my son, called over my husband. You gotta try this, you gotta try this. I can't believe it.

And I was from that moment, a believer, but I was so skeptical, but I was willing at least to try it, but I was so skeptical. And some people say they don't taste a difference. Some people say they definitely taste a difference, but there's a feeling in your mouth of it's how water should feel. And it's kind of like, do you remember as a kid that carrots were sweet and tomatoes were
like an entire meal, you could just eat it. You could eat it, you take a whole tomato and cut it up, put a little bit of salt and pepper on it. And that was like fulfilling. It was so rich and it was so delicious. And now carrots and tomatoes taste like cardboard. They just don't have the energy, the minerals, the nutrition, the vibrance. Food is dead and water is dead. Like the way we've treated it, it feels dead to us. It's not nourishing us and disease is prominent. And when I first drank that structured water, it was like my cells woke up and I remembered, this is what it's supposed to be like. It feels very natural. Now, structured water does occur in nature, but not everywhere. Can you talk a bit about that?

[0:45:26.36] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Yes, yes, I can. The issue is, to be honest, that there are not many places left anymore where the water is coherent. And I must say the whole idea of coherency is a theory. Nobody knows exactly what's happening over there. And maybe I could first explain a little bit more how I look at it, what means coherence, to understand it a little bit better.

If you would have the most powerful microscope and you would look at the water and you would see the molecules of normal chaotic water you would see that they had randomly bumped against each other so they're not in sync and what I think what we did, what we managed is that all the molecules start working together you know they're in sync moving in sync and they start behaving like a crystal. So if you would have the strongest microscope, probably you would see the most beautiful crystals. And crystals are very important, very important. And that's also the reason maybe we can talk later about why we use quartz glass as the outside of the wand. Crystals can receive, store, and give information. Think about the first crystal radios, they were there to receive information. So…

If you manage to structure the water, and like I said, it's a theory, and nobody saw how it really looks like, then you would see all these beautiful minerals, and they are constantly in tune, like the first crystal radios with the cosmos, and that's very important. That's how they receive the pure information what we need. The funny thing is that most people who drink water, become more conscious. So on a conscious part, it's very important to drink that water. And we see that constantly when people start drinking the water, they stop, you know, destroying this planet by themselves because you become aware that you are just a part of everything. Me is you, you are me, everything is us. And we're not divided from each other. And by drinking that water, it makes it clear that you're part of one big whole.

So that's how I look at it. You know, it's a beautiful crystalline form. You can compare it a little bit. I love to compare it with a laser light, although it's not completely the same, but just for the comparison to understand a little bit more. If you would have a five watt lamp, you know, it's just giving a little bit light and it's not coherent light. If you would make this five watt coherent, that means that you let the waves of this electromagnetic frequency work together, then those photons, when they start working together, you get a laser light and a 5 watt laser, it's a very strong laser, I'll tell you that. So in the same way, I look at that water. And so it's very important for all the systems when you get that water, it starts flourishing, it's a lot more energy into it. Like I said, in the biophotons in those plants, you talk about these tasteful carrots and tomatoes. Well, start using Analemma Water and you get them back. For sure. And now go back to your question. Sorry for my diversion. In the past we didn't have so much like you said energy lines, Wi-Fi's, 4G, 5G, whatever. Everything is over there. And water is also reacting on our thoughts.

Look at the last couple of years where we are, everybody's afraid of everything, from COVID to CO2 to whatever, we just live in fear. And that doesn't help water. In the past, people lived near natural streams. And they were moving from what we call meandere, they go from left to the right, they make a left vortex, a right vortex, a left vortex, a right vortex. That's no coincidence. And it's not what people say, it's because they search their way.

Nonsense. Why there's always a left turn and then a right turn and then a left turn and then a right turn? That's energizing themselves. So water comes pure out of a well and then it keeps on energizing themselves. And that is the issue. That's not happening anymore. Just a few people maybe are lucky enough to live close near the most perfect well. We tested water from all over this planet and most of it was not stable. That's why making the water stable was so important for us. Otherwise, you can use your wand once or twice and then you can throw it away because it doesn't work anymore. We tested water in the laboratory which was standing there for over a year near the wifi router and we tested it on tomatoes and it gave the same amount of biophotons. So the stability is very important and there are not many places to find over here and we tested from the Ganga water to whatever. I even took water from the South Pole when I was there, from Greenland etc. And it's not stable so it very easy falls back into the chaotic state. So if you're lucky and you live near a beautiful pure well, of course, you're a lucky person. But how many people on this planet live in that opportunity. In my country, nobody.

So that's why, unfortunately, we didn't find a lot of structured water on this planet anymore. But in the past, but in the past it was necessary because nature did it by themselves, but we destroy so many things in the nature. Like you said, we have straight lines, we have canals, and the water doesn't like to go in curves of 90 degrees. Water doesn't want to flow in a straight way. And that's what we do with water.

[0:51:48.84] Ashley James: We force it to do that. Yeah. One of my mentors, who's also a veterinarian, Dr. Joel Wallach. He's also a naturopathic physician and a research scientist. And he's in his 80s now. He's still active. Amazing man. He discovered that we're largely minerally deficient. We require 60 essential minerals. And the way that they farm the last 100 years, they just pillage the land, they tear off the first layer and then they till the water, or they till the soil, sorry. And then, and the way they farm, it's destroying the minerals in the land. And so now we also know now, between using the way that we channel water on, straight lines and 90 degree angles around farm lands also isn't very helpful, although we need to give our plants water, but it's not structured.

And then we use pesticides, herbicides, all kinds of chemicals, it's ridiculous. A conventionally grown apple in the United States has 50 different chemicals found on its peel. Just by peeling the peel away doesn't remove them because the whole tree is absorbing these chemicals as well. So it's inside the apple. But just to give you an idea, and that's just one apple, an eating organic
is definitely necessary this day and age. I used to have chronic monthly infections for which I was on constant antibiotics for this is 15 years ago. And when I switched to eating organic that my very first month, my chronic infections went away. So that would that told me how important it is to avoid as much as possible what they're spraying in the farms. But what Dr. Wallach said, he goes, look at where our minerals are going. And he goes, it's not just us, it's the planet. Because if you look, he uses the United States as an example, but many other countries do this. All of our major rivers are damned for energy, which I mean, that's clean energy. That's great. But look, he goes there. We are, what we're doing is we're stopping water, sorry, we're stopping the minerals. The trace minerals that are supposed to naturally go into the ocean and feed the ocean were stopping the silt from reaching the ocean. And looked in the science behind it and everything, and he saw that man has influenced almost every major river in the world. And those rivers feed the ocean. And we've been doing that for a while, right? So between that and what you've talked about how water is a broadband absorber and we have frequencies either from ourselves, you can actually measure fear as a frequency coming out of our own body. And then we've got cell towers, you name it. And so water's just here absorbing it all and being coerced into a state that makes it so that our water system around the world cannot restructure itself naturally. So that's one thing.

I had Igor Smirnoff on my show back years ago in Episode 161, because I was interested in his research around structured water and cancer. And he was looking into how to structure water, but he didn't figure out what you guys figured out, cause his structured water device doesn't keep the water structured, it doesn't keep it structured after a few days. Like it doesn't hold the structure like yours does. But what he talked about, which was fascinating, is that those from Chernobyl, they were sent to different hospitals with radiation sickness and poisoning, and there was one hospital up in the mountains and they had a well, and the well was structured water and they didn't know it at the time but everyone who drank it got better and didn't have cancer. And then they finally figured out, like why did everyone have such good results in this one hospital, but not in the others? And they figured out it was because everyone was drinking structured water. So there's a aspect of structured water that helps the body remove radiation, remove free radicals. Can you talk a bit about that?

[0.56:24.85] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Yes, yes. Well, then I have to first enter one very important topic in that, and that is the microbiome. Because I tell my students, the way I look at the body is that we are a heap of bacteria in a pool of water run by the cosmos, a colony of bacteria in a pool of water run by the cosmos. And everything is 100% true. And don't forget the microbiome because it's told you a story about the antibiotics. And one other thing that we do with all the pesticides, et cetera, the biggest issue is on the microbiome. As you maybe know, Parkinson's disease has been proved that it comes from the pesticides. And most brain diseases now have been related to the microbiome in your gut. A healthy gut has over 1200 different species of bacteria in your gut. In your bladder, you have 60 species, 600 plus species in your lungs. On your skin, 1000 species. And they recently found even, I think, over different genes of the microbe in your brain. We are a colony of bacterias in a pool of water run by the cosmos. Those little creatures are so important, so, so important and even our mitochondria who produce ATP, which is our energy. And as you may know, probably noted that all the chronic diseases, cancer, etc. has to do with retarding of mitochondria. Now it has been proved that mitochondria actually were bacterias before. So even inside of every cell, you have 500 to 3000, 4000, 5000 bacterias.

We are a bacteria colony. So, and also these bacteria colonies can be harmed by radiation, by toxins, et cetera. And the funniest thing is, is if you look at it like for horses, vitamin B12 is not essential. Why not? Because they make it themselves, if they have a good microbiome. Cats need taurine, and we don't, because we can make it ourselves. So the microbiome is a very intelligent thing.

There is something which is called biologic transmutation. And what it means that actually bacterias are capable of making from turning one material in another mineral, so go from one mineral to another mineral. Think about chickens. They don't eat as much calcium as they lay every day with their eggs they return silicates, they eat silicates and they make calcium out of it.

[0.59:25.90] Ashley James: Really?

[0.59:26.98] Dr. Erik Laarakker: Yes, so this is called biological transmutation and under our soil, in our soil, that's where all the good bacterias are that we need. That's why we need contact with the soil. You need to dig with your hands in the soil. Kids have to play outside and not behind a computer to get in touch with the soil because that feeds them with the right bacteria. if you have good soil. And so he's completely right that by using all the toxins we put on the soil with farming, et cetera, it kills the bacteria. And for me, that's even a bigger problem than the minerals because first it starts with the bacterias and then the minerals go down. All of it is true. But for me, the minerals are on the second place, if you know what I mean.

[1:00:21] Ashley James: Yes, I'm hearing that.

[01:00:24]Dr. Erik Laarakker: If your microbiome beautiful and perfect and it does its job, you need less minerals because they do a lot of job for you. That's what we found out in our clinic. And water plays a key role in the microbiome. We did a double-blind placebo controlled research with people and we found by drinking the water that the bioindex of the microbiome went up dramatically. So your microbiome, they love the water, the good bacteria, they love the water and it's crucial. So we talked about the information side, what the Analemma Water could do, in the information part, we already talked about that you have a lot better information system in your body that you need, but on the microbiome part, it's very important. We literally could prove that your microbiome becomes better from drinking the right water. In that way, your microbiome will produce a lot more nourishment for your body.

[01:01:33] Ashley James: I did two interviews with a lab called Viome, and they test over 100,000 gene expressions of your microbiome. You send them a stool sample. It's a home test kit. You send them a stool sample, and they send you back just pages and pages of data. But really interesting. I know that we need good bacteria in our gut, right? Like we have about six pounds of bacteria, between four and six pounds. So it's like a little chihuahua basically living inside us. And we can have an overgrowth of fungus, an overgrowth of candida. We can be out of balance, right? A lot of people are. And we all know that they've done studies on those who are naturally skinny, they could eat whatever they want and they're kind of like just naturally skinny and their microbiome is diverse and those who are obese, no matter what they do, their microbiome is not diverse, right? It's unhealthy and they've done fecal transplants where they take the microbiome of skinny people, put it into overweight people and the overweight people lose weight.

So we see this, like you said, we were seeing in Parkinson's, there's a lot of different illnesses where we're seeing that we have to look at the microbiome. But what I learned in those interviews about the biome is that, we eat food and we think we do all the digesting and all the absorbing, but the microbiome actually will eat our food and poop out nutrients for us to absorb. So we have inside our gut a pharmacy.

And I had started to get heart palpitations and I'd gone to a cardiologist and he said I was fine. And I was like, what's going on? And I noticed that my heart palpitations were correlated with when I ate eggs, but I didn't have an egg allergy. I got tested, it wasn't an allergy. I didn't have histamine problems, but I could eat an egg and within minutes I would having heart palpitations. And the cardiologist who wasn't a big help because he said, basically, come back when you're so sick, I can give you drugs, you're too healthy.

But he did say the heart will have palpitations because it's intelligent and there's something that's irritating it. There's something that's inflaming it and it's trying to reset itself. So it's not having heart palpitations because it's weak. It's having heart palpitations because it's strong and intelligent. And I was surprised to hear that coming out of a cardiologist's mouth, but how interesting.

And then I had this interview and she looked at, she was one of the chief scientists there and she looked at my Viome results and I didn't tell her about my heart palpitations, but she said, oh, this particular bacteria, which is actually really good for people, it does a lot of good stuff, but one thing it does is it will convert the nutrients from eggs into, and then she explained stuff that went over my head, but she said it converts it into something that causes irritation on the heart and can cause cardiovascular problems. And so, I mean, I cut out eggs right there. That was it. That was done with eggs. But how interesting that our microbiome digests our food, helps us with nutrients, or can harm us because we've taken a bunch of antibiotics and we have an overgrowth and we have, we all know that we can have dysbiosis and not so healthy gut bacteria, but we want to get to a place where we have very healthy, robust and diverse microbiome in the gut. And you're saying that there's a correlation between that and creating that and drinking structured water. You did some tests. Can you explain them?

[01:05:33] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Yes, we did a double bind placebo controlled test with people and asked them to deliver the stool and after three months did the same thing. And actually we want to test now also with this Viome company, do the same test again with a lot more people. And we found out that the Dysbiosis index actually improved for 30% in three months.

And so the diversity of the microbiome was a lot higher and the harmful ones went down, which is very important. And there is something you think of and this is the nervous vagus, which is very important to mention in this whole area because our brain is directly connected to your gut. You have the nervous vagus, and it passes the heart. It touches actually, your throat, your heart, your stomach, and then it goes to your intestines. And there's a two way communication. So when you're craving for sugar, actually these are the bacterias in your gut to tell your brain that you should eat sugar. So probably in your case, that you got your heart palpitation was because of the feedback from the bacteria to your heart, if you know what I mean.

That's why it goes so fast. It's one of the most beautiful nerves, which is there. And I also call it the nerve of alignment. When that is literally when you're aligned, that nerve works, in two way up and down very well. But go back to the research. So we literally could prove by drinking structured water that you improve your microbiome a lot.

Like I said, over 30% of the microbiome index. And that's a lot in three months time.

[01:07:32] Ashley James: Yeah, that's huge. So for those who are having digestive problems, have you collected data for those who have digestive problems and then drink the water every day and then they report back to you that their digestion is improving?

[01:07:50] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Yes, and many people report back that it's improving. Actually it did it for me. Before I drink the water, I have a lot more like bloating problems. After dinner you know you have this bloating of your stomach and it all went down after drinking the water after two three months. So many people report that back and we see of course in animals we see the also the same especially with horses, they have a lot of problems with the appendix and after drinking the water, you see a lot less problems with that. So of course it's not the only thing, but all those bacterias and also we proved it in a soil because what we did, we did on soil which was damaged completely with Roundup, we did a trial and one got normal water and the other one they got the Analemma Water. And the good thing is after a couple of months, the amount of variation of bacterias in the soil with Analemma Water went up. So it's not only in your gut, but also in the soil. That's why it's very important to get this water back into the rivers, back on the soil. And actually, personally, I think that is the main reason why tomatoes, cucumberss, etc. give a higher photon emission is because you get more beautiful bacteria which you want, the right microbiome back in the soil and also everything is the same also with vegetables. Those plants are being fed from the microbiome in the soil. They need a microbiome. That's one reason why I never want to eat plants which has been grown on aquaponics. Because you need the microbiome of the soil that makes the plant healthy, that gives them the taste, that is giving them the nutrients.

So it's all the same, it's the same cycle in human beings, in the soil, in rivers, in the sea, everywhere, it's the same story. And those, the microbiome is crucial in that. Information is crucial in that. Water is the key player in that. Because water is in the middle of all of them. So that's why we stepped into water, because it's the most important ingredient. It's the most important ingredient in life. It's in the middle of those three.

[01:10:28] Ashley James: If we were to look under a microscope and observe water that comes out of our taps and observe the coherent structured Analemma Water, could you describe what it looks like?

[01:10:44] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Well, first of all, those microscopes doesn't exist. And it is a hypothesis.

[01:10:53] Ashley James: Haha! Electron microscope, maybe?

[01:10:54] Dr. Eric Laarakker: No, what I think, but it's a hypothesis. Probably what you would see. Well, actually that's the main reason why we test the water in biological systems and not in physical chemical point of view.

Because most research what had been done was on a biochemical physical point of view, but it doesn't say it's healthy. And we want to prove the benefits of it. What I think is that we managed to structure the chaotic water in structured water. So the chaotic water, so probably you would see that in chaotic water that all the H2O molecules will move at randomly and bump constantly against each other.

And probably you would see some strange clusters in it, which is the information of the toxins in it. You can take the toxins out of your water, but still the information of the toxins stays inside. That's why it's very important, even after the most beautiful cleaning with reverse osmosis, whatever you want, that still you need to make the water alive again. And so the information will stay.

So probably you will see clusters of different toxins still over there. And in coherent water, you will probably see that all the H2O molecules work together and thus form a crystalline structure.

Like I said before, you can compare it with the first crystal radios. A crystal can receive, store and send information. I personally think that we managed to create water with the most optimum crystalline form or probably crystalline forms that can receive, send the harmonic optimum information for your health and for your consciousness. So what you would see under the perfect microscope, probably you would see the most beautiful crystalline form or many crystalline forms over their own specific functions in just one glass of water. That's what I think.

[01:12:54] Ashley James: And you guys use a quartz tube.

[01:13:00] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Yes.

[01:13:01] Ashley James: You put the mother water in it and you made a tube and then there's a little holder at the end, like metal holder at the end. And that's what we use to stir the water. I fill up my mason jar, I have a glass mason jar, about 32 ounces of it, about four cups. And I sit there and I'll just stir it for one to two minutes and I'll watch in about a minute in.

The water, you can visually see it change. Something shifts, the viscosity changes, and I can see the viscosity shift. And it's almost like oil. It stirs differently. And now, because I do it every day, I fill up about six to eight mason jars at a time, and then I'll sit down and just stir about one to two minutes. But I'll sit there and I don't even use the clock anymore or count anymore because I guess I'm very, very in tune. And as I'm stirring, I feel the resistance change. It's hard to explain, but I feel a lightness. I feel a charge. I feel my hand feels it and I go, okay, this one's done. And sure enough, I go and I taste, I could do a taste test because sometimes, we'll stir like just a few times like, oh, we're on, we're on a rush. We're running out the door and I'll just stir a few times and it's, Nope. That wasn't enough. Uh, it's definitely, I could definitely feel it in my mouth. I can taste it, but I can also feel it in my hand as I'm stirring. The resistance changes. It just, it's like a flip of switch. It's kind of like making butter. If you've ever churned butter, you're just like churning and churning and churning and churning and then boom, it happens. There's like a some kind of chemical line. I know the end-limits causing like a chemical reaction, but in butter, it's causing something to shift and it goes from the buttermilk to butter. And that's sort of the same feeling. It happens in an instant as I'm stirring, it just all of a sudden shifts and the water changes. And it's so interesting. But like I said, I refuse to drink any water that's not structured. So I've been drinking all my water structured.

And now you guys have a device that you can hook up to the house that makes all the water in the house come out of all the taps in the house structured so people can actually bathe in it. And I'm really intrigued to know about the latest studies because we've touched on it a little bit in Episode 498, but the studies really hadn't come out yet. And I think that there's some preliminary information that you could share with us.

[01:15:45] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Yes, to be honest, I really recommend to bathe in it. And if you don't have the whole house on Analemma, you can swirl your bath. You know, like you said, when it's ready. And it's not like, OK, for glass, you need for half a minute. So you have to swirl for half an hour. It's not true. Actually, for me, it's my belly. The problem, my microbiome knows when it's ready. Then I feel, you know, it's like the energy starts flowing. And we were surprised actually how much beautiful results we had. There is a spa now in the US where people come and just lay down in the Analemma Water and they have a tremendous positive results with it on the cardiac output, stroke volume and the blood viscosity. People are measured by doctors and now about 100 people are under research and we have beautiful results with it. And what is the reason for that? One is probably
that your skin has a huge uptake of water, but personally I think there's something else going on also and maybe more important. We talked before that water can make disharmonic tones in sound and in electromagnetic harmonic. What Analemma Water does specially that will tune your energy field from a disharmonic into a harmonic communication system. So personally I have the idea that bathing in Analemma Water even works better than only drinking it.

So I really would recommend it. There's people now, more and more people they use for the swimming pool. And they claim tremendous results with it. And like I said, there are now 100 people on the research and almost all of them have a beautiful difference on the cardiac output, stroke volume and blood viscosity.

[01:17:38] Ashley James:  So for those who don't know what that means, what would you feel? How different would you feel if you had those results? If you had this more viscous blood and cardiac output. What would that feel like? Are you calmer? Are you happier? Or like you're, you're

[01:17:58] Dr. Eric Laarakker: I bathe in it myself. Actually I shower with it every day because I have this whole system in my house. I feel energized. Better connected. Less stress.

To be honest, I need to do it. I'm hooked on it before I go to sleep. I do it twice a day in the morning and in the evening. I know it's not good on spoiling of water, but a lot of my patients actually are not in a good shape. And we do, we work with acupuncture, all kinds of healing stuff, et cetera, et cetera. And all those patients, they drain me a lot. When I take my shower, everything is over.

It reloads, like I said, it reconnects again, and all the negative energies, whatever which are on my body, they disappear. And I just feel recharged again.

[01:19:06] Ashley James: And your showers before you installed the Analemma house unit, they didn't have that effect?

[01:19:14] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Yes, it had also a certain amount of effect, but there's a huge difference. I mean, showering by itself is cleaning your energy field. It's not only about, you know, getting your sweat from your body and stuff like that. But for me, it's always all of my life. I love showering. You know, if there's a waterfall, I like to stand under it, especially when it loads yourself.

The sea, all the negative ions which are there, they reload you. But I don't have the sea near my house and I don't have a waterfall near my house. So I have to do it with a shower. And for me, it's a big difference. I can feel it now, I just was sort of three weeks in Sweden, Norway. And I didn't like to take a shower over there in the houses where I was. And when I came back home, the first thing what I did is take a shower. And it's a complete different feel.

[01:20:13] Ashley James: Interesting. Have you guys had any observations around heart rate variability and bathing in Analemma Water or drinking Analemma Water?

[01:20:23] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Actually, to be honest, we didn't do any research in that, but I'm quite sure that's something we want to do. But on the other hand, we did a lot of research on brainwave activity.

[01:20:42] Ashley James: Yeah, tell us about that.

[01:20:44] Dr. Eric Laarakker: And so we saw a huge difference in that, by drinking the water, like we did for example, a test on a twin and one got Analemma Water, one got the other water, normal water, and with the twin who drank the normal water we didn't see any changes in the one who drank the Analemma Water, you saw a lot more coherence in the brain, far more relaxed, the brain waves start working a lot together. I'm not a specialist in brain waves but the results were tremendous in that way. Then we changed it around and we saw that with the other person.

After that we did a lot of tests with a lot of people and especially you see almost the changes immediately on the stress levels and the alpha state and the beta state you see a lot of changes in there almost immediately after drinking the water.

[01:21:39] Ashley James: Phenomenal. Do you think structured water protects us from different types of radiation? Like what we're exposed to? We keep going back to 5G, but cell towers, the cell phone, the computers, the Wi-Fi being constantly surrounded by electronics. Does structured water act as a way to suppress the effects of all the electromagnetics.

[01:22:11] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Yes, because the water is stable. Like I said, we did tests on plants with one year old water, which was standing next to the wifi router. We found it by coincidence and it gave the same results. And actually in the middle of testing it now. And there's one other thing which EMF does and it is destroying the microbiome. And we also proved that the microbiome diversity went up after drinking the water. So in two ways, it helps, protects, against EMFs. I cannot say anything about 5G because it's not on this planet long enough. We're actually in the middle of testing it, but I don't see any reason why that will be different. And that is one of the go back to the showering and laying in the bath, all these negative information has turned into positive information. So I'm quite sure that it's very beneficial. And actually we tested that on a microbiome and in studies before by feeding that water to the plants and people who are, it's not that you not don't feel it, maybe you even feel it better. If I looked at my own wife and my own kids, they're very sensitive to radiation, but it's very smart if you know what I mean. Because the body tells you this is not good. You should worry if you don't feel it anymore.

[01:23:48] Ashley James: Yeah. Becoming habituated to something that's bad for you, like alcohol, cigarettes, sugar. That just means you're feeling low grade sickness all the time, but you're used to it. And we want people to rage against illness, to stand up and say this is wrong, to just reject it, reject illness, reject this sick mentality.

I'll give you an example. 70 percent of adult Americans are at least one prescription medication. This is how sick we are. But we've bought into the sickness mentality because we've been sold on that this is normal. And being sick is not normal. We need to reject this model that we've been sold is normal. Like you said with horses, where was cancer in horses a hundred years ago? Where was all the allergies? Horses having allergies a hundred years ago.

[01:24:53] Dr. Eric Laarakker: You don't even have to go far so bad. But now in 93, when I finished University, I became a horse vet. Most horses I saw were crippled or some had maybe some skin diseases, but not so many. And now the biggest issue is the gastrointestinal issues, autoimmune diseases, immune diseases. In 20, 30 years, it changed completely.

Even cancer now is a big thing with horses. We didn't see that 30 years ago.

[01:25:24] Ashley James: And look at humans. Look at the amount of children that have illnesses is crazy.

[01:25:32] Dr. Eric Laarakker: I think now in our country 43% of 20 year olds already have a chronic sickness. And this is evolutionary, this is nonsense. So if it is that case, then there's something wrong.

[01:25:45] Ashley James: Yeah. If evolution was the model we were looking at, we would be getting healthier and healthier, not sicker and sicker, right? No, there's something wrong with our air, food, water, soil. There's something very wrong with our entire environment. And we have to stop accepting that this is normal, because it's not. And

[01:26:10] Dr. Eric Laarakker: I fully agree.

[01:26:10.97] Ashley James: I was talking to a client yesterday about this, warning them about a few things. And they said, how do you not have constant anxiety thinking about how there's so much out there killing us? And I said, you know, where I focus is I focus on the safe waters. I'm imagining that you're in a boat and there's rocks underneath the water all around us.

And I want to tell you where the rocks are so you can avoid them. But don't focus on the rocks. Focus on the safe water. So you can steer safely and keep traveling through the safe waters. But we have to know where the rocks are. And we can't accept like, oh, well, this is just how it is. I'm just going to crash up onto the rocks because that's just how it is. And that's what we do. We take our bodies to the wrong doctor most of the time. And they just want to give you drug after drug.

We go to the grocery store and we buy food that's covered in poison and lacks the healthy microbiome because what they're spraying is killing the bacteria that we're supposed to be eating, right? We surround ourselves with electronics that are harming us. We're drinking water that is polluted and chaotic. And then we wonder why we're so sick, right? So we want to make sure that everything that's in our environment and coming into us is clean and for our best good.

[01:27:39] Dr. Eric Laarakker: That's why it's so important to drink the right water. Because the body has an amazing capacity to heal itself. And never forget that. We don't need to do a lot. You just have to push the right button. And water is the key player in all of that. Because that's a communicator. So if you want to change one thing, if you only want to change one thing, of course, you have to change all of it. It's 100% true, but if I had to choose for one, I would choose for water.

[01:28:11] Ashley James: Yeah. Well, because like you said, we're 99% of our molecules is water. That just makes sense. Now there's a lot of talk about hydrogen water and, you know, pH water, like having alkaline water and there's all kinds of waters out there people talk about. When we use the Analemma to structure our water, does it do anything different to the hydrogen in the water? Does it do anything? Could you explain, from a science standpoint is there anything different?

[01:28:42] Dr. Eric Laarakker: No, no, it doesn't change the pH and it doesn't change the hydrogen in the water. These are two different things. And so I don't have anything against the hydrogen water. And some people use the wand after they create their own hydrogen water. And all before, some people before and after, that's a good idea. But I don't want to drink hydrogen water all the time. And I don't want to drink alkaline water all the time. Alkaline water can be okay for, to recover after sickness or whatever, but it's not like using for constantly drinking that water. Actually, the most devices who create alkaline water de-structure the water because it's done with electrons.

[01:29:34] Ashley James: Oh, interesting. So even though people-

[01:29:39] Dr. Eric Laarakker: I see it as medicine, if you know what I mean.

[01:29:41] Ashley James: Yes, right. You wouldn't take one medicine and give to everyone all the time. You use it when it's needed, but they should, if they're using like a Kangen machine or something, they should follow up with the Analemma to structure the water after they've changed the pH because the kangen is destructuring the water. Interesting. Yeah.

[01:29:59] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Exactly.

[01:30:01] Ashley James: Interesting. So my husband and I, we try to be as healthy as possible. We try to make the healthiest food choices possible and we often will juice a few times a week. Like for breakfast or lunch, we'll have a big glass of vegetable juice that I'll make in the juicer. And my favorite is beet, carrots, celery, beet greens, little bit of ginger.

That's usually what I put in, oh, and cabbage. And my husband came up with the idea to then, after I've juiced, because we drink it really fast, like within, we try to drink it within 20 minutes to 30 minutes of making it, because that's where everything's still alive. And he decided to structure the juice after we'd made it. And…

[01:30:52] Dr. Eric Laarakker: He's a wise man.

[01:30:54] Ashley James: That I mean, well, he really follows in his intuition. He also had the intuition to take the Analemma and he used medical tape and he strapped it to his chest, his sternum, and he really felt it. And I talked to Mario about that and he said, well, we're gonna come up with some jewelry that people, so they can wear the Analemma. So it's right by your heart structuring all the blood. And that is just brilliant. But so I started doing that. I started holding the wand up to my heart and I've really felt it. And it just feels so good. Spending a few minutes just holding it there. So my husband decided he would stir it and I don't know if he told me, but he handed me the juice and it was an explosion in my mouth. It was like, I'd never drank juice before. It was a completely different experience. So for anyone listening who likes juicing, you need to try it. You need to structure the juice afterwards. Just spend, a good one to two minutes stirring it and then drink it. And it's a very different experience. It's as if it was completely alive. Like I just got it out of the garden.

[01:32:04] Dr. Eric Laarakker: True, that's what we do.

[01:32:06] Ashley James: You do that too?

[01:32:08] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Yeah, for sure. I mean, it restructures almost everything. Even for the people who like to drink a beer or a glass of wine once in a while, you can use the one for that. And it's not an excuse to drink more.

[01:32:18] Ashley James: (Laughs)

[01:32:21] Dr. Eric Laarakker: I must say, but the taste is going to be different.

[01:32:25] Ashley James: Well, I don't drink a lot of coffee, but when I do drink a glass, I will, or a mug of coffee. I will use structured water to make it. And it is a different experience. It definitely changes the flavor. All my tea, I structure it first before I make tea. And I just, it really changes the difference. And, my husband said the other day, he goes, we should, we should open up a chain of restaurants with the Analemma Water.

And everyone's going to freak out because the food is going to taste so good. Because all the food will be made with the Analemma water and all the water we serve will be Analemma water and I was like, you're brilliant. This is genius. You know, I think that I think you're onto something.

[01:33:09] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Well, I'll be the first one to come and join in your restaurant for sure.

[01:33:14] Ashley James: I love it. I really want to make sure that before we finished today's interview, that you share what is most important to understand in terms of the science, the discovery, like especially for the people who are skeptical like I was, right? This isn't woo-woo, this isn't a new age woo-woo device. Like there is so many results, that you've used the scientific method, you can clearly see across the board, in animal, like you said, there's no placebo effect, it helps animals, and you've used the Analemma Water with animals.

Could you just leave us with what is the most important thing that we need to understand about the science around this?

[01:34:00] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Actually, one of the most important things for me is the results on the microbiome and on the brainwaves and on the ATP. And we did a double blind controlled research on ATP, on ATP in blood levels. And in three months time, we saw an increase of 23% of ATP in the blood.

[01:34:25] Ashley James: That is wild. So for those who don't know ATP is cellular energy made by the mitochondria. If you don't have ATP you're dead. It's the one difference I could say between people who are alive and people who are you know six feet under is producing ATP. So it's like you're 23% more alive after three months of drinking the Analemma water.

[01:34:46] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Almost all the chronic diseases, mitochondria play a key role. In aging, mitochondria play a key role. So for me, that was one of the most impressive research that we did. It was even more than we thought it would happen.

[01:35:02] Ashley James: Did you do a telomere measurements or are you going to do that?

[01:35:08] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Actually we now have a talk, the next one probably is going to be the Viome test. We did of course the glycan age study and there's a lot going on, in how important telomeres are. The science is a little bit changing so and it's not easy to do research on and of course we have to pay all the research ourselves so. We're actually now in the middle of making our choices where to do research in.

[01:35:41] Ashley James: So let's talk about Analemma and the future of using structured water to help humanity, help the planet. What are you most excited about that you've got kind of in the hopper coming up in the future?

[01:35:52] Dr. Eric Laarakker:  Well, I will share you my wildest dream.

[01:35:55] Ashley James: Okay.

[01:35:55] Dr. Eric Laarakker:  Our goal for the future actually is to make all the waters on this planet coherent. It would help this planet and all living things on this planet to become healthy and more conscious. Imagine what would happen if all the seas, lakes, rivers, all the drinking waters would be coherent. The microbiome of this whole planet would revive and this would help to clean up all the toxins in the water and soils of this planet. It would help tremendous in making this planet and all living healthy again. We would become the conscious healthy humans that we should be. And that's one of the effects of this water that we touched upon is that it raises the consciousness of the one who is drinking it. And for me, it's very simple. A higher consciousness would never destroy this beautiful planet and would do everything to bring beauty and harmony to this planet. That is for me one of the most beautiful side effects of the Analemma water. I can tell you one more research what we did, which proved it more or less. And that's been actually a test we did already years ago. With biophotons, we were measuring on seeds. Some seeds got normal water, other seeds, they got Analemma Water.

And we were measuring the biophotons over a long period, over days. And the funny thing is the water with the seeds who got the Analemma Water, there was like a sonazoid going on, there was a harmonic rhythm. And with the normal water, we didn't see that and we didn't know what it was. And then we found out that actually the seeds who got the Analemma water were reacting exactly on a moon cycle.

[01:37:44] Ashley James: Oh wow.

[01:37:45] Dr. Eric Laarakker: So that means they are in tune. The biggest issue, as I see it, that we have on this planet, is that we think we are kind of coincidence over here and that we are the master of this planet and the master of the universe. Well, we're nothing. If we would come in tune again with the cosmos, with the God, whatever you wanna call it, with the quantum field, then we would stop by ourselves to destroy this planet and do everything to bring beauty to this planet. Actually that is our wildest dream.

[01:38:17] Ashley James: There's no separation between us and our and each other and between us and this Earth. Like you said, we think we're like separate, right? We're like people think that there's somehow separate from what they put in their mouth. They can go to McDonald's and that they're like somehow they're just eating for pleasure, but they're putting poison into every cell of their body, right? But we think we're separate. We think that there's a difference between us and the Earth and our behaviour as a specie has made it so that the Earth is mirroring how sick we are, how angry we are, how disconnected we are. And this isn't political. And that's one thing that I always want to leave people with is that I'm not saying this isn't talking about climate change, right? Because that's so political. This is talking about we can all agree that pollution is bad for us. Remember back in the 80s, acid rain, like where did that go? With their spraying, the man-made pollution is bad for us. Let's not even talk about carbon, because people are like, there's too much carbon. Well, there's some science showing that there's too little carbon. It's kind of ridiculous. The problem is the mainstream media has us looking in the wrong place because they're like puppeteers. They're like, look over here, look over here. And they distract us.

Look over here. Don't look at the fact that we're spraying your air, you're putting chemicals in your water, putting chemicals in your food. We're feeding you artificial food, bio-engineered, genetically modified food. And for every 278 Cheerios, you're eating one Cheerio, the volume of glyphosate.

So like, would you sit there and put a straw to a bottle of Roundup? But that's what we're doing. And this is killing us. It's killing all of nature. Luckily, we still haven't gone past the point of bifurcation, right? We can turn this around, but each of us has to, instead of feeling guilty or shameful about this, we have to go, I love my body, I love my planet, I love the universe. I love the cosmos. I love God. Like I love it so much. I'm going to take care of myself and take care of this planet. We have to use our wallet to influence, right? So, so you're vote with your fork, vote with your dollar and invest in and get active, get vocal, invest in companies that are here to protect us and help us and help the planet, so organic companies.

I love the Analemma Structured Water Device. Listeners can go to Definitely use coupon code LTH and thank you for that. It's already incredibly affordable, which we talked about in Episode 498, how it's very affordable. And that's wonderful for you guys, because I know that you guys could be charging five times as much or more and you're not, because you're making it accessible. Make sure that we find the companies that want to help us and help the planet and help our food and help our soil, just help all of us be as healthy as possible.

I believe in that consumerism can be harmful, but we can use conscious consumerism to be helpful. And so that's why I think we can turn this around, that as individuals together, we can turn this around. Stop waiting for some government to do something. We need to, as individuals, rise up and make sure that our choices are in alignment with helping our health and the future of our planet and the planet right now. Because if you structured all the water in the earth, just imagine how quickly we could start turning things around, it's beautiful. Don't support the companies that are hurting us. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Man. I wish I could have you on for like four more hours talking about all this. I know it's really late at night for you right now.

So I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us today. And I would love to have you back on the show as more studies come out. It would be so brilliant to continue to share this information. You've shared so much already. Is there anything that you want to leave us with?

[01:42:43] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Thank you very much that you want to have me in the show. Let's put it that way. And I fully agree. Let's not go into fear, because I think I see these times where we in. These are one of the hardest times maybe ever for humanity. But it's a big chance. It's a chance to wake up. And, you know, sometimes you need chaos before you get a new order. And luckily, our water can bring order and chaos but there are many other things also over there. And to be honest, my God tells me we are heading to a beautiful world. And so don't go into that fear because it's not helping. That's why they want to have us, because if we are in fear or in anger, it doesn't matter, you're not in your alignment. And we should be, as soon as you are aligned, you bring beauty. And this is an energy nobody can stop. And think about that. Just keep aligned. Then things will change.

[01:43:52] Ashley James: Love it. I love it. Thank you so much, Dr. Eric Larreker.

[01:43:57] Dr. Eric Laarakker: Perfect.

[01:44:00] Ashley James: It was such a pleasure having you on the show and I can't wait to have you back. And listeners can go to, use coupon code LTH, try it for yourself. Come join the Facebook group, the Learn True Health Facebook group, and lots of people talking about the Analemma and the structured water and sharing their results and their experience. We'd love to have you come join the group and join the conversation. Eric, can't wait to have you back on the show. Thank you so much.

[01:44:27] Dr. Eric Laarakker: I will thank you so much. Bye bye.


Get Connected with Dr. Eric Laarakker!





Aug 2, 2023

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507: Understanding the Polyvagal Theory with Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie

Ashley James & Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie

Herbalist Elizabeth Guthrie, Ph.D. in Natural Medicine, shares her insights on the multifaceted world of plants and their significance in promoting well-being. She emphasizes the valuable role of invasive species in soil amendment, dispelling misconceptions and illustrating how these plants can be harnessed for nutritional and medicinal benefits. The discussion expands into the anxiolytic effects of Mimosa pudica bark and its role in downregulating the nervous system, with a focus on polyvagal theory and its implications. Furthermore, Elizabeth delves into the significance of the vagal nerve as a conduit of memories and the intricate connection between the gut and brain in shaping overall well-being.

Explore the transformative power of your unique plant allies as you harness nature’s wisdom for healing and resilience — and embark on a journey of self-discovery, connecting you deeply with the natural world. Sign up now for the free training—


  • Mimosa tree insights
  • Anxiolytic effects and relaxation
  • Beneficial invasives may provide nutritional and medicinal benefits
  • Untapped nutritional value in roadside plants often dismissed as weeds
  • Anxiolytic effects of Mimosa pudica bark and its role in soothing the nervous system
  • Vagal nerve's holistic role
  • Holographic nature of the nervous system


Hello true health seeker, and welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health Podcast. We have Part 2 with Elizabeth Guthrie, who we had since the last episode, Episode #506. She was a Ph.D. candidate, and now she's officially earned her Ph.D. in Natural Medicine, and she comes back on the show to dive deeper into this discussion of using herbs as our own medicine at home. And we discuss how you can work with herbs, for your own somatics, for your nervous system. I know you'll love today's interview. I hope you go back and listen to Episode #506, which was Part 1. We just continued the discussion. So, even if you didn't listen to 506, you'd still be able to gain lots of information from today's interview. And I apologize; my microphone is just a little bit off. You're still able to hear everything and gain knowledge from the episode. A knob got bumped, so it's just a little bit off, and I apologize. I'm going to correct that and get it all fixed and sound great again. 

So this interview took place a few weeks ago, which we're publishing right now. But today, I just finished an interview with one of the top scientists around structured water and the analemma, and I'm very excited to be publishing that. And that is going to be the next episode, Episode #508. So be sure to check that out. It's going to come out in the next few days. And Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie is giving us access to her free course, so we want to make sure that you guys know to go to and sign up for her free class that she's giving on Saturday. And even if it's past the date, go ahead and go to that link because I'll make sure that it forwards to the course she's giving and any future free talks she's giving. But this particular webinar is going to be fascinating. And if you have any interest in utilizing plants and learning more about natural medicine, learning more about emotional and physical health, emotional, mental and physical health, and working with plants, then I invite you to check it out. I think you'll really like it. takes you to sign up for her free talk coming this Saturday. 

Make sure you subscribe wherever you listen from, whether it's the Apple podcast app, Android, Google, PodBean, Spotify, even on Amazon Podcasts, all kinds of places, or just on the website. You could be listening from there. Wherever you're listening from, make sure that you subscribe so that you get the notifications for when episodes come out.

I want to make sure that you definitely hear next week's episode. It's going to be amazing. I was just floored. There were several times when my jaw was on the floor, and I just can't wait to give you that information. With these interviews, it's like gold is coming out of the mouths of the guests that I have on, and I get so excited thinking about these little tidbits. Sometimes it's just one sentence. Someone says one sentence, and it is all the insight that was needed to spark the action, the mechanism of action for you to take your health to the next level. And certainly, I learned so much from my guests that have taken my life to the next level. So, I'm so thrilled to share this with you. I know today's interview will give you lots of gold, lots of insights as to what you can add to your life to enrich your life and your health and your continued growth in your well-being. And next week's episodes are going to be amazing as well. So remember, go to so you can get access to Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie's talk coming up soon, and have yourself a fantastic rest of your day and enjoy today's interview.

[0:04:17.4] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health Podcast. I'm your host, Ashley James. This is Episode #507. I am so excited for today's guest. We have back on the show — I think it's the third time we've had you on the show, and now I can say, Ph.D. Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie. Welcome back to the show. It's so good to have you. We recently published an episode with you where it was just before you got your credentials, and you're saying, “Any day now, I might find out,” and then, of course, it was days after I saw you on Facebook going, “Yay, I got it!” So you've been Ph.D. for a while now. Although I've just published that episode. It was actually a few months ago. So it's been a few months, and so much has happened in your life. I'm really excited to have you back on the show because what you teach is a type of medicine that is so accessible. We actually all used to use it. Our ancestors only a few generations ago had such vast knowledge, and we've lost it in the last hundred years because of –, and I don't want to get into sounding like a conspiracy theorist, but it's the truth — that there was a concerted effort by those who owned the pharmaceutical companies to make it so that we didn't practice natural medicine. Instead, we focused on just going to the doctor and buying drugs that were petroleum-based patented drugs. And three generations later, we have no idea what herbs do other than maybe drinking some peppermint tea. And yet, right in your backyard, you have access to amazing herbs. 

My friend, last year, got stung by a wasp really bad, and a friend of his who, I believe, is a First Nations person, a Native American, or has that background, turned to my friend and said, “Oh, go grab that yarrow right there. Chew it up and put it on the wound. Put it on the bite.” And my friend, who was in immense pain, did it, and within seconds, it felt like the pain just went away. And he was like, “Woah, what was that?” And his friend was like, “Yeah, yarrow. It grows everywhere and really good for…” and he started listing off all these things, and it was right there. He got stung, and he didn't even have to take a step. It was like the yarrow was the medicine.

And the cure to the problem was right there at his fingertips. And this is what it's like in our backyard. You could just reach out. You can just walk ten paces, reach out, touch, and as long as you don't have just a manicured lawn, you can grab something that has wonderfully beautiful medicinal properties. There are trees that I know in our area that grow the seeds that fight parasites. There are things that we think are weeds that are growing up between the cracks in the cement, making wonderful poultices for eczema and bug bites and for calming fevers. The list goes on and on. It's amazing that we could just take a little bit of time, learn from Elizabeth today, and begin to cultivate this excitement around how we can use plant medicine to support our body's ability to heal itself. Even in some cases, in the first stage, just to calm the nervous system and bring in nutrients, decrease inflammation, swelling, and pain. 

So we have lots to talk about today. I'm really excited that Elizabeth is doing a free introductory event to plant medicine. You're going to learn so much. I want you to sign up for it. Go to I just tried to make it as simple as possible to type in instead of having to type in plant medicine. So just type in, and that'll take you to her free introductory event, where she's going to teach you lots of great information, even more than we're going to discuss today. So, welcome back to the show. It's great to have you here.

[0:08:39.0] Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie: Thanks. I'm thrilled to be here. 

[0:08:41.1] Ashley James: Absolutely. So, take us back to the moments we hung up the last time, and then days later, you finally got your credentials, your very hard-earned Ph.D. in Natural Medicine. Let us know what's happened since. What has unfolded since? 

[0:08:59.9] Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie: Wow, there's been a lot of different fascinating discussions with people. I got my Ph.D. in Natural Medicine because it was accessible to me. It was something that I was able to do. I was able to really buckle down and do a lot of hard work around it. I've learned a lot about natural medicine in general and, of course, my focus on plant medicine and the way that it can help after significant emotional distress or trauma, depending on the situation. And it is a little bit different from Naturopathic Medicine. There are naturopathic medical schools in both America and Canada that can teach you how to become almost like a primary care physician. This was more research-based, but it's been really helpful in my practical application as well because I do support people in a clinical setting to help them find out what their bodies need and what's going to help them the most. 

I guess it's been about nine months. It has been a whirlwind. I got to teach a class for the American Herbalist Guild on polyvagal theory in herbalism. I've begun to train in somatic practices. So I was already doing some somatic work, and, of course, I've been training for yoga therapy and things like that. But I've really started to do these professional level trainings with Dr. Peter Levine in somatic practices in order to better merge plant medicine and what's happening in the body, how we can really come in contact with our body, and really get to that point where we feel embodied. So that, then, our intuition is a little bit clearer. When we look out into nature, we look at the different rhythms that are happening in nature. We look at the things that are occurring, the seasons, or sometimes the doctrine of signatures for the plants in the way that the plants look or the things that were called to. If we are more centered on ourselves and we understand a little bit about the plants around us, it becomes easier for us to intuitively reach for the right things at the right time. And that's a lot of the work that I've been focused on.

[0:11:29.5] Ashley James: Love it. Well, since we talked, I've been having tea a lot with my son. He gravitates towards them much more intuitively than even I do. And it's cool because he's very sure of himself, and he's very grounded in knowing who he is. He knows what he likes and what he doesn't like. And he asks for tea, and that's so cool. So we've been playing around with the different teas, and he loves Sleepytime tea and all those herbs that are just calming and soothing right before bed, and I noticed he does definitely seem to just ease into bedtime a bit better. So we enjoy, and we each share a cup of Sleepytime tea. On the back, it says do not let children drink it, and I noticed that after about the fifth time, we were drinking it. I was like, “Oh no, why?” It's not like I'm giving him five tea bags. It's not strong. I'm not making a strong one. But I was like, “Why is it saying this?” So maybe you could enlighten me. Are there teas that they sell on the shelves of the stores just like premade kind of tea mixes that are unsafe for certain ages? Obviously, I'm not feeding it to an infant. My son's 70 lbs, and he's drinking one cup. So maybe you could enlighten us on that. And what we've really enjoyed is that he likes picking his own herbs and making tea like peppermint. He likes picking fresh peppermint, and he'll make his own teas without me prompting him. He kind of just knows how to do it, which is amazing. He's got this innate knowledge. 

And then lately, I've been making a turbo moon tea elixir where I've mixed fifteen different herbs. I felt really drawn to that Ayurvedic mixture. Let's see, I have got like ten to fifteen of them, so I don't know if I can name them all off, but I've got like licorice root, dandelion root, a ton of turmeric, cumin, cardamom, nutmeg, cinnamon, clove, ginger. The list goes on and on. And then I blend them all up with pepper, with some coconut milk and water, and then I put it in the fridge, and it becomes this congealed, very thick substance. So it's a concentrate, and I just take a spoonful of that — and ashwagandha, a ton of ashwagandha — put it in a mug of hot water, and I stir it, and then that's the tea. My body loves it because it's so calming, so relaxing. I fed some to my husband last night, and he fell asleep within five minutes, snoring on the couch. I was like, “This is really good.” Any time I do this moon tea — I call it moon tea, but there's way more in it than the normal moon tea — I just notice that my nervous system loves it, and I have even better sleep. And, of course, my husband, it just knocked him right out, which is wonderful. A lot of the stuff in there helps detoxify, and it's antiparasitic. Its anti-inflammatory and its adaptogenic herbs are helping to stabilize the body. Ashwagandha is good for men and women. I always thought it was just women, but I started reading about how ashwagandha is good for men, and I thought, “Oh, I'm going to feed this to my husband.” And he loves it. 

So you've inspired us to play with herbs since we talked. So thank you. Thank you for that. So you came up with this course — the introductory events and then the whole course that comes after it. So, fill us in on what we are going to learn. Or can we dive into what you are so excited to teach us today? 

[0:15:33.2] Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie: I think it's really interesting because your comments about your son and his intuitive sense towards the plants, making the teas, and choosing the things that he's really drawn to at that moment is a natural intuition that we all have. And I believe that a lot of the time, one of the reasons that we have this kind of deeper homesickness, this deeper sense of “I don't quite feel like I'm in the right place,” comes from our lack of connection to nature.

When we look around us, and we connect to nature, we connect to the rhythms of the universe and what's occurring. And when we can start to really find ourselves in that deeper relationship — first, it may just be like, “Oh, this is nice,” but the more that we do it, the deeper our relationship becomes. And we can get to a point where that stillness actually becomes part of what we experience on a regular basis. And once we're at a place where we can embody the stillness of just knowing that these rhythms are a continual thing, “this too shall pass” — some of the stuff that we teach in mindfulness-type practices — then we can really get to a point where we can listen to our deepest consciousness and understand more about why we're here doing what we're doing. Like what our purpose in life is or the way that we can better connect to things, that kind of ancient wisdom that everybody holds, but we may not be able to access as easily when we're so disconnected from our natural state. And that's a lot of what we're talking about. 

Now, of course, we're getting into, “Here are the different plants you can do for this, and here's the teas that you could talk about or hear, the different essential oils.” But the core essence of this course, starting with this free introductory event, and then, of course, if you decide to come into the main course, we're really getting into tapping into that more natural intuitive sense to help to build and strengthen that relationship with the plants that are around us and what that means for each of us individually.

[0:17:53.1] Ashley James: So what herbs have you been featuring the last few months? What herbs have you been most excited about teaching or using yourself, seeing that they are so needed right now?

[0:18:08.7] Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie: So, it's interesting that you ask me that because I've been chomping at the bit to talk about invasive species. Think about dandelions. For a lot of people, it is considered invasive, and the entire plant dandelion is helpful. The new leaves that come out in the spring they're nice on a salad as part of the bitters. There are a lot of benefits to the root. You can get roasted dandelion root to add to your coffee for people who drink coffee, and that's a really interesting flavor addition, and it has benefits. So there are all kinds of different ways you can use dandelion, and yet a lot of people see it as an invasive weed. 

To answer your question, one of my favorite plants right now is the mimosa tree. And it's really funny because the woman that you shared on your Facebook, I know that woman. That's one of the herbalists from our area. She and I have a very similar view on Mimosa because a lot of people go, “Oh, it's so invasive. It's terrible. I hate it. I can't get rid of it.” And I'm not saying that it's not very frustrating if it takes over and you don't want to take over. But I was very excited this year when one finally popped up. My neighbors have one on the property line, and every year, I've been like, “Okay, come here, come here.” And this year, what has finally popped up on the property? The bark and the flowers both have anxiolytic relaxing effects to them. I love this plant, and I use it for flower essences. I use it in tincture form for this anxiolytic effect. So, I am thrilled that this little baby has popped up on my property.

And so we don't need to just see invasive species as a pain. Sometimes, they're helping to change the soil. So, a lot of the time, these things that we consider invasive may actually be helping to amend the soil. Also, even kudzu has some properties that are beneficial. I don't use it very much. And so those kinds of things we can harvest without having to worry about the sustainability of it. Some plants we have to be more careful with because we've never harvested them. But a lot of these invasive plants that have benefits, either nutritional or the medicinal herbal side of things, whatever that is, we can harvest these and use them. 

I was recently reading a book by Pascal Baudar. It's his new book called Wildcrafted Vinegars. And one of the things that he mentions is that there are all kinds of different plants. He used to live in California, and there were all kinds of different plants that would just grow on the roadside and all over the hills that had nutritional value to them. But people saw them as weeds and never did anything with them. And you know, when people are concerned about, are we going to have enough access to food. Are we going to have enough capacity to take care of ourselves and things like that? So it may be more on the proper side of things, but still, we can look at those. And there are certain foods that can come from these things that we call weeds. There are medicinal benefits and survivability benefits. I encourage you, whatever you have around you, to get out and start learning about it and start understanding what these plants are. Not just the native plants but the invasive plants that we have in our area that might have benefits. Sometimes, you can find some really strong allies in those plants that we might normally think of as kind of a pain. 

[0:22:23.8] Ashley James: So the Mimosa pudica bark, you said the word anxiolytic? Can you explain what that means? So, if we were to take the bark and make tea out of it and drink it, what effect would it have on us? 

[0:22:36.1] Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie: So it helps to reduce the feelings of anxiety. It has a very cooling, relaxing type energetics that helps you bring the nervous system back down. So this gets a little bit into the polyvagal theory — the sympathetic state, that fight or flight response. If somebody is really into a fight or flight mode, then the Mimosa can be very helpful on that front. 

[0:23:04.4] Ashley James: I can hear people say, “What if I poison myself because I don't know what I'm doing? Or what if I drink too much of it or have a bad reaction?” They're thinking, “I have to call poison control or something.” Can you maybe relieve our tension around the fear of using plant medicine because we're so used to picking up a prescription bottle and seeing how many to take and knowing that it's controlled, even though tens and thousands, if not a hundred thousand people a year die of improperly using prescription medication, not including the deaths overusing them? We think prescribed medicine is safe, and it's not. There's also a risk to that as well. There's more risk because the safeguards from nature have been taken out. 

I think we've talked about it before, but it's worth repeating that the willow bark was where we get aspirin from. Willow bark in its whole state; if you were to make a tea out of that, for example, or tincture, if you consume too much, it would cause you to throw it up. So it helps prevent you from overdosing. Whereas aspirin, they removed those things in nature that help us. I'm not saying every plant has the safeguard because, obviously, there are many plants that you can't eat, and that'll kill you. But there are even more plants out there that you can eat, and that will help. It's like snakes. Most snakes won't kill you, but it doesn't mean all snakes will kill you, either. So, a bit of knowledge goes a long way, and having a healthy respect for plants, just like having a healthy fear of human-made medicine or chemical-made medicine, we should just use more caution and look into each thing more. So, for all of us who have a mimosa tree in our backyard, why don't you just run out there right now and start gnawing on the bark. 

Tell us about the safeguards of beginning to use plant medicine just so that we can be rest assured. Like my son, without any thought, he will run outside, pick some bush, and start eating it because he loves plants. And I'm like, “Sweetie, there might be something in this garden that could kill you.” I know there's at least one plant that is in Washington State. I mean, it's killed one person in the last 60 years, but it could make people very sick. And I've told him not every plant is safe. We should really know what we're putting in our mouths. But he's like, “Well, you told me vegetables are good, and this is green, so I'm just going to eat it. He likes foraging, but he does it without me. So he just comes home chewing on something, and then I have to say, “What did it look like? Hold on, let me look it up.” So we want to go in our backyard or out in nature, or just go to the health food store, maybe. Sometimes, I start there. Can you teach us a bit about the safeguards, though, while we get into this?

[0:26:23.4] Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie: So I encourage people to look into local guides and their plants, what they have locally grown. There are all kinds of different books that are available to give you an idea as to the safe dosing of different plants. And I will say, when you start looking into this, a lot of the dosing is based off of somebody who weighs about 150 lb. And, of course, children's dosing is a little bit different. But when it comes to an adult, usually, if you're looking at a bottle, it's kind of based off of somebody that is 150 lb. If you're heavier than that, sometimes you'll need to take more. But when you get into that level of taking capsules and taking a lot of it, and maybe there are some extracts, or maybe there's something else, that's where I think it's really helpful to find a clinical herbalist in your area, and work with them to learn a lot of these safeguards, a lot of these things that we're finding out. 

I think what we got into talking about last time with turmeric and the fact that there are some extracts now that may be giving people problems. We don't quite know yet. Is the whole plant or the whole root safe? Are these extracts, these curcuminoid extracts, giving people problems like, “What's happening there?” And you can work with a clinical herbalist to get a better feel for that. But there are a lot of plants that we can get into, most of which are in the teas that we see at the grocery store, like we're talking about, that are generally recognized as safe. For most people, there's not going to be an issue. If you have a lot of chronic illness, if you have a lot of unusual allergies, that would be a good time to say, “Hey, I think I am going to at least try to get an idea of what I want to do together.” Take it to an herbalist and just pay for time to sit there and talk through it with them. Maybe it's not like a full consultation, but maybe it's almost like a mentorship session. Consultations are good too, but if you're already kind of taking it into your own hands, you already have an idea; maybe you sit down for an hour of mentorship with them where they can help keep you in that safe range. But generally speaking, if you're in a situation where you're relatively healthy, and you're trying to just start to explore these things, then a lot of what you're talking about, like peppermint, is relatively safe for most people. There are going to be some people that may have some issues with acid reflux with it. But for the most part, people are going to be okay, and it's going to be fine, like lavender and chamomile. 

So there's a lot of these different herbs and a lot of the adaptogenic herbs that are very safe for most people. So there's a lot of those herbs that you can learn a little bit about, learn a bit about the dosing, and very quickly benefit from them. For instance, with the bark, it is about 10 grams into a decoction, and that's what people can use. Now, it's going to be lower if you put it into a tincture. But it's a pretty decent amount of it that is considered, at this point, safe to use. So it's definitely like an entire conversation in itself, like safety and safety buffers. And I think it's just really important to recognize that you don't necessarily read an article on the internet and assume that it's right. Go back to these people who are herbalists who have been doing this for years or who have credentialing. Notice that I used that separately because there are a lot of people who don't have credentialing who are very good herbalists and have experience. So, both of those things are valid career paths. So look for things like K.P. Khalsa's books. It's a little bit older, but Louise Tenney was a master herbalist who has some good reference guides. Obviously, Rosemary Gladstar's work is really amazing. Now I'm freezing up on the man who did the adaptogens. But David Winston has an adaptogens book if you're into that. So there are all kinds of different places you can go to find out what people are generally seeing as safe dosing.

[0:30:54.3] Ashley James: And they can also go to you, right? 

[0:30:58.7] Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie: I'm here. I just don't want to be totally focused on myself as perfect, like I know all of this. A lot of this I'm learning from. I'm standing on the shoulders of giants with a lot of this information. We have a lot of indigenous healers who have given us a lot of information, and we've got a lot of these people who have really studied and codified what these dosages look like. But yeah, absolutely. And there are ways to look at this from a more energetic angle. So, the first interview I did with you was on chakras and talking about energy healing because, at the base, I am very much an energy healer. And so there are ways to get into plant medicine where we are focused on very low dosing or drop doses that are focused more on the energetic train and less on the chemical constituents. There's just so many different ways that you can go with us. And yes, that is absolutely an option as well.

[0:31:59.1] Ashley James: So, bringing us back to the Mimosa pudica plant, which I first learned about because I had Dr. Jay Davidson on the show, and he talked about using it in conjunction with other herbs. But he used it from ayurvedic medicine to rid himself of 12-inch worms that were parasites in him. And then, he created a line of parasite-cleansing supplements in which Mimosa pudica was a main component of that. Mimosa pudica seed, I should say. So I became very excited about Mimosa pudica, but then I learned that it's sort of like the dandelion. We can use the flower. We can use the leaves. We can use the seed. We can use the bark.

Tell us about the other parts of the Mimosa pudica. Let's pretend 20 years from now, when you have this thriving Mimosa pudica tree in your backyard, what are you going to do with all the properties of this tree and beyond the bark, helping us calm ourselves from anxiety and the seeds that have antiparasitic properties. What other healthy properties do the other aspects of the plant have? 

[0:33:15.6] Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie: Mimosa pudica is actually a different species from Albizia julibrissin. It's very similar, though, but the Mimosa, which is called Mimosa pudica, is actually like the one you're talking about, where I think it's used a lot in Ayurveda and TCM, maybe.

[0:33:35.9] Ashley James: Oh, so these are like cousins?

[0:33:37.8] Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie: Yeah, they're kind of cousins. And so, Albizia, you'll hear it is sometimes called silk tree, but it's also called Mimosa here in the South. But our main invasive mimosa is the Albizia julibrissin. The bark and the flowers are the two things that I use most frequently. So with pudica, I think you use the seeds, and maybe the roots are another aspect that you can get into. But for this plant, the Albizia julibrissin, that's the one that I work with most. I tend to get the flowers in the late spring when they bloom and tincture them, and then go back in the fall when it's time to trim it back, and trim it back and take the bark, and I do it right before it starts to get really cold because obviously, the energetics move into the roots when we get in the late fall and early winter. But in mid-fall, probably mid-to-late September, I'm going to trim it back and take the bark and put it into the same tincture I put the flowers into. And then, I use that as one of the relaxing, cooling herbs and formulas that I use specifically to support people who are dealing with that sympathetic fight-or-flight state. So that's a lot of it for me because a lot of the time, I am working with people that have a lot of autoimmune issues or maybe chronic pain and things like that. But a lot of the work that we're doing actually starts in the nervous system.

And so, when I'm using things like Mimosa and things like that, I'm not worried as much about the anti-inflammatory properties. They are good. But what I'm really focused on with it is the cooling and relaxing properties that it offers the nervous system to help bring them back into balance, so that their body is no longer in that alarm state, so that their body can start doing what it naturally does to reduce inflammation and flush everything out and get them back into balance. So that's kind of where I use it. I know there are other people who use it in other ways, but that's one of my favorite ways to work with it. 

[0:35:57.7] Ashley James: Very cool. I love it. And it's so interesting about the idea that an invasive, not noxious species, but an invasive species could actually be there for our benefit to help balance the ecosystem or prepare the soil or something maybe medicinally that we need. I think of other examples of that. So, there are a lot of invasive thistles in Washington State. I'm thinking about the invasive trees and plants. Not the noxious ones, not the poisonous ones, but the ones that are safe to eat, but they're just kind of taking over. And I'm just wondering if you could share, if you know a bit more about other ones that are known medicinal invasive species.

[0:36:50.2] Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie: So I can speak mostly from the South because that's where I'm at. But like kudzu, it is rampant here, and there are traditional uses for kudzu. There's kudzu jelly. There is a reason that some people use it for headaches and things like that. There's all kinds of things like that. Somebody said English ivy, but I have not played with that. I've not dug into that. And I'm trying to think of ones that might be out there as well. And chickweed, is chickweed something that you all have? 

[0:37:34.1] Ashley James: We've got English ivy, knotweed, Scotch broom, ragwort, Kitsap weeds. There are a lot of different thistles, although I don't know their names. Dogwood trees take over everywhere. Well, it's something like you said — it's very regional.

[0:38:02.9] Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie: Right. And that's the beauty of getting out there and really learning from a local herbalist. I'm happy to help anybody get started on that side of things. A lot of the work that I do doesn't consist of necessarily, specifically, it's more about the connection once you find plants that you're interested in. It's more about encouraging the exploration of this plant. So now, locally here, I've got chickweed. Like I was just saying, that is invasive, but it's edible. There are so many different things you can do with it, and there's all kinds of stuff like that all across the world. 

[0:38:40.5] Ashley James: Okay, so let's talk about chickweed. I'm going to Google it so I can know what it looks like. But let's talk about it. So you can eat it. What is it good for? What does it help people with? 

[0:38:50.9] Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie: Chickweed, I tend to use it just as part of the food. That's the beauty of a lot of these plants. There's a medicinal side to them, but then you also have the fact that a lot of these things are edible, and they can be fermented into really interesting culinary things that people can use. A lot of the time, chickweed is something that people are talking about for digestion. I see it a lot because it is a spring herb, so it's kind of part of those clearing herbs that we use early in the spring. Some people use it to try to help with the kind of systemic inflammation that leads to circulatory problems. I can't think of the official word for it, but obesity and things like that. But I don't go too far into that because I have a doctorate. I have a Ph.D., but I'm not a medical doctor. So, I'm less worried about diagnosing somebody with diabetes or metabolic syndrome. That's the word I couldn't think of. I'm not looking to diagnose somebody with metabolic syndrome and say, “Oh, here are the herbs that can help you.” I'm more about the rhythms of the seasons that we're in. So, in the spring, we eat chickweed. We eat dandelion leaves. We do things like that to help clear the system, to help clear the congestion from winter, to help our body to prepare for the spring energies that are coming up. 

If somebody comes to me and they've got metabolic syndrome, I'm less worried about metabolic syndrome and more worried about what are the energetic patterns happening in their body. Is there a lot of stuff? Usually, somebody's coming to me because they've got some form of trauma or emotional struggles and things like that. They really want help with mental health-type things. So we're looking at the nervous system first, like, what's happening in the nervous system? There is a lot of heat and irritation in the nervous system that we can use to cool things, like chickweed is kind of cooling, right? And it can help to cool the body down and bring it back into balance. And that's where some of the polyvagal stuff comes into play with a dorsal vagal versus sympathetic. And if somebody's in a sympathetic state, there are certain herbs that energetically have benefits for that sympathetic state versus the herbs that are going to be more helpful for the dorsal vagal state, where somebody's body is almost too cold, and there's almost not enough movement. And their nervous system has almost slowed down too much, and we have to warm it back up and bring movement back in. 

[0:41:45.7] Ashley James: Just to clarify, for those who just need a refresher in dorsal vagal, polyvagal, fight or flight, sympathetic versus rest and digest, parasympathetic, or maybe, like you said, they're having trouble getting proper vagal tone. I don't want to say fight or flight, but when we need that cortisol, we need that stimulus, those healthy cortisol levels, it's just not there. So, for me, I had a really bad end stage, chronic adrenal fatigue. So bad that if something were to happen, I wouldn't have been able to jump up and run out of a burning building. I didn't have to get up and go. And then, out of nowhere, I'd have these adrenaline dumps where I felt like I was dying. That would happen occasionally, like my body was like, “Okay, come on, let's go. Come on, let's go. Let's just release the cortisol.” And it was dysregulated. That was not healthy, and it took nutrition and dietary changes and lifestyle changes. And then the final thing really was minerals, remineralizing my body. But it took a lot of healthy changes to get me back to where I was balanced again. 

And thinking about the herbs that I was regularly using, I can remember cinnamon. I was taking cinnamon capsules. It had a few other things in it, but it was like some minerals packed with cinnamon. That was brilliant for me, the minerals. Cinnamon is the only herb I can remember. I know that there were a few other ones. This was like twelve years ago. But I was very exhausted all the time and didn't have to get up and go. So, for me, I was like the other side, where people who are living on cortisol, they're living on adrenaline. They're kind of tired-wired at night, and sometimes they can't bring themselves down. They might go, go, go during the day, but then when they need to relax, they can't, and then it gets to the point where they're burnt out. So when they need to get up and go, they can't. So, the vagal nerve is brilliant. We definitely want to talk a bit more about that. We've discovered it before, but it's so worth talking about more. It's a wonderful nerve that runs from the brain to the gut. And there's so much to discuss because there's a direct connection. We've got like a brain in our gut. We have a brain in our heart, and we have a brain in our head. And that's why we're just discovering what kind of what we know in natural medicine, in indigenous medicine, for hundreds and hundreds of years. We're now just discovering in the West that there are bundles of nerves in the heart and in the gut and that they're communicating to the brain. We used to think the brain just tells the body what to do. But we actually have a brain in our heart, a brain in our gut telling our brain stuff. It's like a consciousness, like thinking that we do in our head. Sometimes, I go all over the place, but it makes sense in my brain. 

There's a really great book written a long time ago, and I read it back in 2005, and it still sits with me. It's called The Holographic Universe, and it talks about how we think that all of our thinking is in our head, but it's actually stored holographic throughout our whole body. And it's so beautiful — this idea that our nervous system is actually throughout our whole body, and we can store memories. People will have transplants, like a heart transplant, and then they'll have memories from the person they got it from. There was even a little girl who had a transplant, and she had perfect memories of the murder, and they were able to use them in court and convict the murderer. And that was the organ that she received from the murder victim. We've got several other cases in which we've seen that memories exist outside the brain because the stored holographic leads to the whole nervous system. So that's why I love the vagal nerve because it's this superhighway from the gut to the brain.

And there's more going on in the gut that we need to acknowledge like a thyroid hormone is turned over and produced in the gut that we always think it's just in the thyroid, but there's actually stuff in the gut that's very important. Something like upwards of 70% of our serotonin is made in the gut. There's so much going on with the 6 lb of bacteria in your gut that's making so many of our nutrients for us from our food. So you eat that McDonald's, that's what you're using to build yourself. But that's also what you're using to build your microbiome and feed your microbiome, and you feed the wrong microbiome. It's a bunch of sugar and flour. The bad microbiome is going to produce bad chemicals. So I could go on and on. But the vagal nerve is so important on an emotional level, mental level, physical level, energetic, and spiritual level for our being. 

So there's my little soapbox rant about how much I love the vagal nerve. But you talked about the vagal nerve when it comes to herbs and how we can acknowledge, “Okay, I'm kind of running empty.” How can we restore ourselves? “Okay, I'm running. My body is running like there's no tomorrow, and I need to calm myself and put myself in healing mode.” When we're in fight or flight, we're not really in healing mode. Our body shuts off in somatic processes for long-term healing in order to survive the day, the fight, or the flight. So we want to bring restoration because it's good to have the ability to fight or fight when we need to. It's good to have the rest when we need to have to bring ourselves back into the balance. And that's what I love. You teach us how to think about plants as our support system for bringing the nervous system back into check.

[0:48:07.2] Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie: Yeah, and there's a lot of nuance to that. And that's some of what we get into in the course. It's like, “Well, if you have this going on, then is it sympathetic? Is it dorsal vagal?” Sympathetic means fight-or-flight. The dorsal vagal is a part of the vagus nerve that creates the freeze response that shuts down. And so, what do we do when we're having those responses? How do we balance that back out? And those responses are healthy in certain situations. But like you said, what's happening for a lot of us, especially with the life that we have to live to survive in today's society in a lot of situations that get thrown off, a lot of that is being held in different parts of our nervous system. A lot of the frustrations or the traumas or whatever else, the memories, as you said, like with the holographic body, that's getting held in other places in our nervous system. And so a lot of the conversation becomes, “What are the herbs that we are drawn to?” Because we can talk about medicinal plants. But we can also have plant friends that we don't eat. But the energy, the resonance between them and us, is something that you can't replace, and it feels comfortable, and it feels safe. A lot of the times when you've been through a lot, and things have been very bad chaotic — there's good chaos, and there's bad chaos — but when you've been through something that's overwhelmingly chaotic, sometimes it can begin to feel like this is too much. Everything feels like I can't get to a point where I know what's going to happen next. And if you have a plant ally, a plant buddy, if you will — it sounds fancy to call it an ally, but — 

[0:50:06.6] Ashley James: Emotional support plant.

[0:50:08.0] Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie: Right. It becomes an emotional support plant. And I have some of those. I have this bloodleaf. I don't use it for anything nutritional-based. I don't use it for anything in the medicinal realm. But the plant itself, I feel comfortable with that plant. And when I'm around that plant, I get the same feeling from that plant. And so now that becomes almost a regulation tool for me. So, there's a side to polyvagal theory called co-regulation. Usually, we talk about it with adults and children. If the adult can consciously allow themselves to stay in that ventral vagal state, which is a part of the vagus nerve that helps us feel connected. It allows us to go into rest and digest where the healing can occur. If the adult is able to consciously do things to help themselves stay in that state and their child is dysregulated, the child can begin to see the adults and see the adults' facial expressions and body movements, and they will begin to regulate. And if the adult can continue to keep themselves in that ventral vagal state, it helps the child to regulate. And so adults can do this for each other. But I have begun to realize that you can get some of that from plants. It's not quite the same thing as being around another mammal, and so on and so forth. But you can get some of that from plants. If there is a plant that you enjoy, that you feel safe enough to really get into that place where you can begin feeling healed, that connection is important. 

So, in this course that I'm doing, we're not just talking about, “Use this for this nervous system state. Use this to help your digestive system.” We are talking about some. We might talk a little bit about the different plants that people bring to the table, depending on what they've got going on, and so on and so forth. But really, the core of this is there are all kinds of ways that you can learn from different books, or I can teach you about the different herbs. At the end of the day, what really begins to matter, once you understand enough safety to keep yourself safe, like, we're not eating datura over here. But once you understand that and you're able to keep yourself safe within working with these plants, then there's a whole world to explore that allows us to realign our nervous system, realign our body in general, and get back to a place where we can listen to our intuition and decide what our tea needs to look like this morning. What are the plants that I'm being drawn to right now? Once our nervous system is back in alignment and that vagus nerve is feeding the brain the right information again, then our subconscious can begin to direct us toward the things that we need on a regular basis. 

[0:53:09.1] Ashley James: Can you give us Beginner 101 going into the grocery store? I hate to say grocery store because I only go to the holistic grocery stores. I go to the grocery stores that have the bulk section of herbs, and I'm like, “I'd like a spoonful of ashwagandha today.” Sometimes, I'll buy the big bulk things, and sometimes, I know I'm not going to go through this herb enough. I've learned my lesson. So I'll just go to the bulk section, and I'm like, “I'm just getting two tablespoons of this root,” because I am not buying a $50 bag of it. I have an apothecary near me as well, and they sell so many herbs, dried herbs in bulk, as well as tinctures. But when I'm working with herbs, I like to start with the herb itself without it being a tincture because I can ease into it if it's new to me. Like tea is something that is so gentle, and they'll get into a tincture for bigger things. 

I like to think of it this way — the size of the medicine should reflect the size of the problem. I know several people with cancer, and they're like, “Which tea should I drink?” I'm like, “Lady, this is when you bring out the sledgehammer.” This is when you want to go big and go 100%. You got to change your diet and your lifestyle and bring everything to it. But if I feel a little stressed, I don't need to bring the sledgehammer. That's what I like about homeopathy or Bach flower remedies. Let's bring some gentle energy to nudge the body back into balance. And those are very powerful medicines. Even in themselves, they are energetic medicines. But they're not a sledgehammer necessarily. You can do it gently. The way you do it properly is you do it gently.

So, with full herbs, I can make a tea and just experience it, and then I can go from there. So, let's say everyone's had peppermint tea, and everyone's had some experience with general herbs. What would you say if they could walk into a holistic supermarket or an apothecary, and what are your five favorites to have in the medicine cabinet for those who want to take it up one more notch beyond chamomile peppermint and lavender?

[0:55:57.9] Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie: In a lot of these, I will say you do have to explore and see if it works for you because, again, depending on your nervous system state, depending on your underlying energetics, there are all kinds of different caveats to different options. But one of them that could be really interesting is Damiana. Damiana is normally thought of as an aphrodisiac. Yeah, it's really very spicy in smell, but it has a very warming effect. Now I will tell you, if you've been through a lot of trauma and you naturally tend to dissociate, Damiana is not something you want to try. But for people who are not experiencing that, Damiana may be something you want to go play with and see how it makes you feel. 

Holy basil is generally a great one for almost anybody. You can use any of the three subspecies and usually get very good results. It's not an official adaptogen by whatever the fancy version —

[0:57:16.4] Ashley James: I was going to say the National American Adaptogenic Society. 

[0:57:20.6] Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie: Yeah, I can't think of the right phrase for it. But it's not an official adaptogen if you look at it from the definition like what David Winston uses for adaptogens. He's one of the foremost experts in my mind on adaptogens. But it is adaptogenic. So, it has a lot of those qualities that help the body to adapt to different stressors. It does build that buffer for people, so that can be a fantastic one for just about anybody.

Rhodiola is good if you are dealing with a lot of the spaciness that the dorsal vagal kind of shuts down. Now, if you are like me and you run on the sympathetic nervous system side, then that's going to be a little bit too much, and it may actually make you feel more anxious. But for a lot of people, Rhodiola can be a very, very beneficial option. 

Hawthorne is usually thought of as a heart herb, but it doesn't have to be just heart. There's also that warming energetics behind it. It's really beneficial for a lot of people. So if you're dealing with a lot of burnout or compassion fatigue, that sense of, like, “I'm tired of trying to be caring.” That happens. That's a thing, and Hawthorne is a great one for that as well. 

[0:58:45.0] Ashley James: I had a bit of that after the last three years. I'm so empathetic, and there's been so much turmoil in the last three years. But I found myself becoming cynical. When you describe compassion burnout, I feel like I've recovered somewhat from it because we've had a bit of relief. But the last few years have been pretty intense, and there's so much polarization in families. And it's kind of disgusting when you think about politics, and I don't think this was handled very well on any side. It doesn't matter what side you're taking. No one handled this well, especially the government. And the people who loved each other were fighting and at each other's throats and saying really nasty things that we all kind of regret. Even if you try to stay out of it and even if you're just a neutral party, we all felt horrible for those who were suffering — suffering from loss, suffering from being through illness, suffering from isolation, suffering from having fights with family members or losing their job, or whatever. It hasn't been that great the last few years, and I find a lot of people are acting like they have amnesia. What is that when you go through trauma, and then you're like, “I'm just going to compartmentalize that in a part of my brain and lock it away and not think about it anymore.” And then they're like, “Oh, we're just back to pre-90s. Screw the 2000s. Let's go back to the 90s.” But my brain is like we're back in 2019. We just kind of skipped over the last few years, and that's trauma. And I really think the globe has been through trauma. And if you haven't personally, if you just somehow managed to isolate yourself in the cave and not go through trauma, you've witnessed trauma. You've witnessed people experience it instead of locking it away because so many of us have to skip doing what we're doing to survive and keep a roof over our heads. You still have to go to work. You got to come home and do your laundry. Your days off aren't spent healing. Your days off are spent doing groceries and taking care of the kids, or the husband, or yourself, and your cats or dog, or whatever. But no one has sat back and gone, “Okay, as a society, let's start healing from this.” It's just like, “Nope, let's go back to normal. Come on, go back to work.” So I think that acknowledging — and that's what we talked about a bit in the last interview — acknowledging the trauma that we've been through and then, obviously, we can use herbs and plants as a support, but we need to acknowledge the last few years that there's some level of acute stress. And when you go through acute stress for years, there's a drain on the body. 

And I just realized, when you said compassion fatigue, I was like, “Oh, that's why.” I didn't like feeling cynical. That's not my nature. So I became the observer, watching myself become cynical and I'm like, “This is very uncomfortable. This is not me.” That's, I think, the defense mechanism for having compassion fatigue. And I love Hawthorne, and yes, it is wonderful for the heart. But also because it is so anti-inflammatory. As you are mentioning these herbs, I'm thinking we have to stop thinking about herbs like they're drugs. Like, “These are the effects, and these are the side effects.” No, drugs were copied from herbs, and herbs have so much more. So, for drugs, they took one chemical component or more from a plant, and then they stripped it of minerals and nutrients. They strip it of the thousands of enzymes, phytonutrients, and phytochemicals that make plants beautiful, and then they use some kind of petroleum-based chemical to then make a patented compound with all kinds of side effects, and the body just gets so confused when given drugs. I like drugs to save someone's life. I'd rather you be on a drug and be alive than not in debt. So drugs have their place, but they should not be the first thing we jump to. Unfortunately, most of us only know to go to one doctor, which is the drug-based doctor, and that's why my show features people like yourself from so many different paths so listeners can know that there's more than one choice. Because mainstream medicine is the mainstream — I get that I'm going to sound like I'm a conspiracy case, but it's all true. Just go look it up — almost every single TV show or movie is produced by or owned by corporations that are either owned by or funded by the pharmaceutical industry. And so they have a reason for not featuring — can you imagine if there's like a Grey's Anatomy made, but it's plant-based medicine, herbal doctors? I think it'd be fun. It would be a lot less drama because you're coming in to help people meditate and calm, and like, “Here, have some tea, and let's discuss this. Let's bring in nutritious herbs to help yourself heal.” I think it would be interesting. But it would make for really boring TV because we're not feeding into the drama of it all. The whole system of what we've been raised in is designed to make us think that there's only one form of medicine. And that's part of the PR that has brainwashed us for the last three generations. But if we go back to our great grandparents, they would look at us like we're aliens because they just went to plants as natural as breathing. They went to plants as herbs in their cooking, as herbs in their stews, soups, teas, as herbs that they would use on a regular basis through the seasons, like you talked about using plants in season. They would deworm all their animals, and then they would use the same herbs to deworm themselves. We had to use herbs to survive. That was our medicine. I just want us, as a society, to recognize and be taught that, to this day, there are more options than just drug-based medicine. Plants have always been around, and like I said, you could walk out of your front door and grab a plant and probably have a wonderful time brewing tea and supporting your body. Hawthorne is beautiful. I love it. One of my friends used it to heal her heart condition, in addition to using other herbs. But Hawthorne was her daily go-to. She made a huge 4 liters of sun tea, and she just sipped on it, and Hawthorne was one of them. It was so important to her because if she didn't drink it, she'd have heart palpitations. 

[1:06:47.8] Dr. Elizabeth Guthrie: It's an amazing herb. One of the things that's really coming up for me as you're talking is remembering that a lot of the times — of course, people knew this plant was good for this, but there was also some intuition that came into play there especially when people are first trying to figure it out, like the plants. And a lot of the indigenous folklore, the plants speak to people and tell them what they're good for. And we have a lot of those pieces that I think people are working to reclaim at this point. In some traditions, it was never lost, but for many of us, it was lost, and we're trying to reclaim that. The last three years have really brought people to a point where they want to know that trauma thrives in isolation and in fear. Trauma occurs when things happen too much, too fast, and too soon, or when it's not enough, too slow, or too late, And we had a lot of that. We had a lot of isolation. We had a lot of unknowns. We had things happening too fast or too late. There was a lot of that over the last three years, and a lot of people who had not struggled before are now struggling, whether it's related to things that had happened or if it's just related to the stress. There's a lot of brain fog. There's a lot of uncertainty. There's a lot of emotional struggle for people. One of the things we can do to really start to heal from these moments of compassion fatigue and things like that is to start turning back to nature and exploring what's around us. So what's in our backyard? Like you said, if it's not manicured and you've got a more natural backyard, you're going to have plants in your backyard that are probably beneficial. You just have to learn about them and start to learn how to ID the items in your area.

The fifth herb that I was going to suggest — maybe some of the other apothecaries have it because I haven't seen it a lot in our apothecaries here — is dandelion. Dandelion has several different parts to it. So, like we talked about earlier, you can use the roots for certain things. You can use the leaves for certain things. The flowers make beautiful teas and breads, like people make dandelion cookies. So there are all these different ways that you can use dandelion and the different parts of dandelion. So if you mindfully learn about it and you mindfully start trying like, “What do I feel?” Not just emotionally, but what are the physical sensations that occur when I use the roots versus how is it different when I use the flower head? What does that feel like? So, for me, I have a downward rush of energy. I can feel my nervous system almost rushing, like bringing my attention downward almost to my root chakra into the ground, which makes sense, with the root being a little bit more grounded or connected to the earth. Whereas I feel a lot of warmth in my chest when I'm using the flowers, which is interesting because, from a chakra angle, I might have thought of the solar plexus. But for me, it's in the heart region with the flower. 

So these things are going to be different for everybody. But when we start noticing those sensations, what that brings to the table, the intuitive thoughts that we have behind those sensations, the emotions that those physical sensations create for us, the things that we're reminded of, we can easily st