Learn True Health with Ashley James

On Learn True Health, Ashley James interviews today's most successful natural healers each week. Learn True Health was created for YOU, the health enthusiast. If you are passionate about organic living or struggling with health issues and are looking to gain your health naturally, our holistic podcast is what you have been looking for! Ashley James interviews Naturopathic Doctors and expert holistic health care practitioners to bring you key holistic health information, results based advice and new natural steps you can take to achieve true health, starting NOW! If you are sick and tired of being sick and tired, if you are fed up with prescription drug side effects, if you want to live in optimal health but you don't know where to start, this podcast is for you! If you are looking for ACTIONABLE advice from holistic doctors to get you on your path to healing, you will enjoy the wisdom each episode brings. Each practitioner will leave you with a challenge, something that you can do now, and each day, to measurably improve your health, energy, and vitality. Learn about new healing diet strategies, how to boost your immune system, balance your hormones, increase your energy, what supplements to take and why and how to experience your health and stamina in a new way. Ashley James from Learn True Health interviews doctors like Dr. Joel Wallach, Dr. Andrew Weil, Dr. Deepak Chopra, Dr. Oz, Dr. Joseph Mercola and Dr. Molly Niedermeyer on Naturopathic Medicine, Homeopathy, Supplements, Meditation, Holistic Health and Alternative Health Strategies for Gaining Optimal Health.
RSS Feed Subscribe in Apple Podcasts
Learn True Health with Ashley James




All Episodes
Now displaying: 2019
Aug 8, 2019

Get my favorite magnesium! Use coupon code LTH at

Get my favorite supplements:

Aug 6, 2019

Check out the info about my favorite bed for the best sleep:
The Inflammation Spectrum Book -

Jul 31, 2019

Check out the info about my favorite bed for the best sleep:

Listen to my interviews about Sunlighten Saunas and detoxification:

 Grounding for decreased inflammation and stress:



Music: Dreams by Joakim Karud
Creative Commons — Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported— CC BY-SA 3.0
Music promoted by Audio Library



Become A Health Coach-Learn More About The Institute for Integrative Nutrition's Health Coaching Certification Program by checking out these four resources:

1) Integrative Nutrition's Curriculum Guide:

2) The IIN Curriculum Syllabus:

3) Module One of the IIN curriculum:

4) Get three free chapters of Joshua Rosenthal's book:

Watch my little video on how to become a Certified Health Coach!


Do You Have Anxiety? End Anxiety Now! Learn Two Powerful Mind Tricks for Removing Anxiety, Ending Worry, & Controlling Fear So It Stops Controlling You! Attend my FREE Webinar that Will Teach You How! Click Here!

Need Help Ordering The Right Supplements For You?

Visit, and a FREE health coach will help you!

Do you have a blood sugar issue? I can help you achieve healthy, normal and balanced blood sugar naturally!
Join Learn True Health's Facebook community group!
or search Learn True Health on Facebook!


If this episode made a difference in your life, please leave me a tip in the virtual tip jar by giving my podcast a great rating and review in iTunes!

Thank you!
Ashley James

Enjoyed this podcast episode? Visit my website Learn True Health with Ashley James so you can gain access to all of my episodes and more!

Follow the Learn True Health podcast on social media! Share with your friends and spread the word! Let's all get healthier & happier together!

Learn True Health - Facebook:
Learn True Health - Twitter:
Learn True Health - Medium:
Learn True Health - Pinterest:
Learn True Health - YouTube:


Jul 30, 2019

iThrive Series:

Utopia Found: A Blueprint for Spiritual Renaissance and World Peace

Jul 26, 2019


Become A Health Coach-Learn More About The Institute for Integrative Nutrition's Health Coaching Certification Program by checking out these four resources:

1) Integrative Nutrition's Curriculum Guide:

2) The IIN Curriculum Syllabus:

3) Module One of the IIN curriculum:

4) Get three free chapters of Joshua Rosenthal's book:

Watch my little video on how to become a Certified Health Coach!


Do You Have Anxiety? End Anxiety Now! Learn Two Powerful Mind Tricks for Removing Anxiety, Ending Worry, & Controlling Fear So It Stops Controlling You! Attend my FREE Webinar that Will Teach You How! Click Here!

Need Help Ordering The Right Supplements For You?

Visit, and a FREE health coach will help you!

Do you have a blood sugar issue? I can help you achieve healthy, normal and balanced blood sugar naturally!
Join Learn True Health's Facebook community group!
or search Learn True Health on Facebook!


If this episode made a difference in your life, please leave me a tip in the virtual tip jar by giving my podcast a great rating and review in iTunes!

Thank you!
Ashley James

Enjoyed this podcast episode? Visit my website Learn True Health with Ashley James so you can gain access to all of my episodes and more!

Follow the Learn True Health podcast on social media! Share with your friends and spread the word! Let's all get healthier & happier together!

Learn True Health - Facebook:
Learn True Health - Twitter:
Learn True Health - Medium:
Learn True Health - Pinterest:
Learn True Health - YouTube:


Jul 23, 2019

Troy's detox experement results:

Learn more about Sunlighten Saunas by listening to this interview with their founder, Connie Zack:

Jul 19, 2019

Jacob's site:

The water filter that I love and believe that EVERYONE should have in their home and office:

This water filter makes your water taste amazing so you will love drinking your 4 liters each day!

Jul 16, 2019

Listen to my interviews about Sunlighten Saunas and detoxification:


Get Palmer's free Optimal Food Guide to help people dial in the best foods for them; you can download it at

Adventures by A Himitsu
Creative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported— CC BY 3.0
Music released by Argofox Music provided by Audio Library

Jul 4, 2019

Health Coach Success Summit:

More info about becoming certified in Functional Diagnostic Nutrition: and (use coupon code LTH for the listener discount!)

Free Gift - 21 Day Program to figure out why you feel fat, sick, or tired all the time and to learn how to fix it in 21 days or less! URL is-

FreeBackgroundMusic Kynemon - Happy
Track Info: Title: Spite by ZAYFALL Genre and Mood: Dance & Electronic · Inspirational Free Download:

Jun 28, 2019
For questions reach out to David Bloom via email:

For the Free Jar of Magnesium Muscle Cream use coupon code LTH, Add the Magnesium Jug to your cart, and the free muscle cream will be added automatically as well as the 10% discount.

To join IIN and enroll in their Health Coach Training Program, 25% off with zero down, call (844) 315-8547 (U.S.) or +1 (212) 730-5433 (International).

In support of the show please join Ashley's fun kid's book party!

Jun 25, 2019

Get Dr. Z's free videos and his book:

For the Free Jar of Magnesium Muscle Cream use coupon code LTH, Add the Magnesium Jug to your cart, and the free muscle cream will be added automatically as well as the 10% discount.

To join IIN and enroll in their Health Coach Training Program, 25% off with zero down, call (844) 315-8547 (U.S.) or +1 (212) 730-5433 (International).

Join Ashley's fun book party!

Jun 19, 2019 - A free copy of David Tomen's book "Secrets of the Optimized Brain" by entering your email address and subscribe to the weekly Nootropics Expert newsletter.

Jun 14, 2019

Visit and use coupon code LTH for 20% off Eva CBD Whole Hemp Plant Supplements!

Listen to my interview with a founder of Eva CBD and how they formulated their potent whole plant supplements:

Jay Hartenbach, a founder of Medterra CBD, is giving Learn True Health listeners 15% off on his CBD products, so be sure to type in the discount code LTH at checkout.

You can listen to my interview with Jay about the hemp farming and supplement industry here:


Song: Del - Tropical Love (Vlog No Copyright Music) Music provided by Vlog No Copyright Music. Video Link:

Jun 11, 2019


Ways To Make Healthy Skin

Discover how Jennifer Fugo, a Clinical Nutritionist embarked her journey on finding out the various root causes of different skin conditions like eczema and psoriasis. Be inspired as she narrates how she overcame her painful experience of having skin condition called Dyshidrotic eczema. Moreover, know whether topical treatment really work as well as the do’s and don’ts of treating skin conditions. 


Are you looking to optimize your health? Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price? For high quality supplements and to talk to someone about what supplements are best for you, go to and one of our fantastic true health coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are the highest quality and the best price– that’s Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program.


[00:43:00] Ashley James:  Welcome to the Learn true health podcast. I’m your host Ashley James. This is Episode 360.

We’re in for such a treat today. We have back on the show with us Jennifer Fugo, she was with us on Episode 198. That’s a lot of episodes between when we last had you on, we talked about your gluten free school which is now transitioning to have your gluten free school be underneath your umbrella of but that’s not what we’re here to talk about today but listeners can definitely go back to Episode 198 and listen to your story and great advice around going gluten free.

Today’s episode is all about skin health. I hear almost weekly from my listeners about rashes, skin irritation and hives– histamine issue. The list goes on and on. Some people have skin issues that they have been diagnosed like eczema or psoriasis and others just have these rashes pop up and they’re itchy and or scaly skin and or acne. All these skin issues on the outside, wearing our illness on the outside, we become so self-conscious because everyone can see what’s going on. We really want to get to the root of it. You’re here today to share with us how we can interrupt those old patterns and create wonderful skin health. Jennifer’s podcast is called the Healthy Skin Show and her website is— combinations of the words skin and interrupt which is really cool. Jennifer, welcome back to the show.


[02:38:00] Jennifer Fugo: Thank you so much for having me, Ashley. I have to tell you, this is one of the podcasts that I feel deeply honored to be back because you are an amazing person and you’ve led the charge in helping so many people change their lives. You just got such a great audience as well. It’s just a deep honor to be here for the second time. Thank you for having me back.


[03:01:00] Ashley James: Well, thank you. I’m really excited for you to help all of our listeners who have skin issues to resolve them today. For those who didn’t get to hear you in Episode 198, can you take us back? Share a bit about your story and what led you to want to work with people in order to correct their health and heal their skin.


[03:25:00] Jennifer Fugo: Yes. What was interesting when we talked in the previous episode it was mostly about the Gut issues that I had struggled with. If we fast forward a bunch, I went to Grad School to become a Clinical Nutritionist because while I had loved working with people from the food perspective I really wanted to dive deeper into underlying reasons that were driving Autoimmune Disease and inflammatory conditions. I love biochemistry. I learned that I love it however, in the process of going to Grad School and being under an enormous amount of stress. I started to develop these– I don’t know how to describe them other than it would look like these little crystals, like little balls underneath my skin on my fingers. I was like, “What is that?” It looked almost like a white head but it wasn’t. I couldn’t figure out what it was, I couldn’t get them. I didn’t feel anything just under my skin and I never noticed them before.

As the summer kind of went into full force, the area became increasingly red and itchy then eventually, those little pustules burst. I thought, “Did I get poison ivy?” I’m like, trying to figure out what it is. I’ve never had that in my life. I went to my dad who’s a doctor and he’s like, “Oh, it’s some sort of dermatitis.” I was like, “Dermatitis? What is that?” It turns out that I did not have some random dermatitis. I had developed a condition called Dyshidrotic eczema, it’s a type of eczema but it affects the hands and the feet. Fortunately, it only affected my hands which has this good positive benefits because I didn’t have a problem walking but in the same respect affecting the palms of your hands can have a major detriment upon your life.

That summer I watched as what became these little rashes turn into massive patches of red skin that cover the palms of my hands up to the sides and the webbing of my fingers down the tops of the fingers and even started to destroy the nails themselves.

You might say like, “That stinks. Your hands are itchy.” Let me just tell you that if you’ve never had eczema on your hands, I’m not saying that it’s any better or worse than anybody else’s different types of eczema, they have but it’s a real challenge to open doorknobs. I couldn’t exercise anymore. I had a really hard time holding anything. I had to wear these blue gloves that I bought at a Home Depot because I couldn’t touch anything. I couldn’t wash my hands anymore because water burns so badly. I couldn’t wash my hair or take a shower.

It really impacts your life a lot. If you have rashes elsewhere, you can cover them up a lot of times with clothing but when it’s the palms of your hands and it’s the middle of summer it’s very difficult to avoid when you meet a new person to not shake their hand. When people see that your hands look all red, rashy, and oozy, you have some sort of infection, they don’t want to touch your hands to shake it. I was in so much physical discomfort and also this horrible sense of being dirty or disgusting. Almost like you’re a leper in modern day and there was no way for me to hide it. You walk around with baby blue gloves on, everybody can see that and like “Why are you wearing those?”

I went to a dermatologist. They basically said steroid creams and Vaseline to keep the moisture. I’m like “Vaseline, like how impractical and I wouldn’t want to put a petroleum-based derivative on my skin that’s all open and whatnot.” As the winter came around, those red burning, oozing, itchy rashes turned into incredibly fragile dry skin. Remember, it’s all on my hands, every time I would bend my fingers, it would break. I ended up with what felt like 1000 paper cuts all over my hand.

I’ve tried all sorts of stabs. I used to wear gloves to bed to try and keep the moisture in these fabric gloves. I was just desperate for relief and it would come and go. Finally, I just had enough. I was a nutritionist at this point and I felt ashamed, to be honest with you. I thought that I’m supposed to be this pinnacle of health and here I am having this really serious condition. People don’t even want to touch me; they don’t want to shake my hand. How can I go give a talk with blue gloves on? I had to stop taking cooking classes and whatnot. My husband, I have to credit him with being the inspiration for writing my attitude and showing me that this could be an opportunity for me to look at myself as a client and say, “What would you do to help yourself if you walked into your office?” That was what set me down the path of thinking, maybe there is something else that I can do while Google hadn’t turned up very much that was helpful. Maybe I need to think about this from a different perspective and that’s really where my journey began. I can tell you that I have been completely 100% in remission for at least the last year and a half.

No more flares. I’ve been really appreciative of all the connections that I’ve made and I’m very passionate now about sharing everything that I learned with people who are stuck in this boat of suffering from skin rashes.


[09:34:00] Ashley James: When we were talking before we hit record, you said that since we last spoke, you are going in a new direction that is so authentic to who you are. Now having heard this side of your story, I can really hear the authenticity in your voice that this is your calling although the gluten-free school was definitely mission-driven. You were definitely out to help people to heal at the root level their skin is your calling. I can definitely hear that passion in your voice and it’s very exciting because I’ve known many people with skin issues that were suffering like you were for years and all they were given from medical doctors was steroids.

I knew one woman who was in her early 20s. She had been on the steroids since she was six years old. It was $700 a month. If she wasn’t on it, she couldn’t leave the house. She was in agony. Her entire body from head to toe was covered in eczema so bad that her whole body would burn. One year someone stole her purse and she didn’t have an extra $700 to buy the cream and so she suffered for a whole month until she could get the money together to buy an extra tube.  I had said to her, “Have you ever read the side effects?” She came back almost crying because it said do not take for more than two weeks. She was about 21 at the time and she’d been on it since she was six. This meets the number one side effect and concern– the reason why they say discontinue after two weeks is that it causes cancer.


[11:30:00] Jennifer Fugo: The other piece too is one side effect– it’s a major problem known by different names. It’s called Red Burning Skin Syndrome. It’s also called Topical Steroid Addiction or Topical Steroid Withdrawal. When you are constantly on topical steroids your skin essentially develops an addiction to the steroid cream because the steroids are a pot of water that’s boiling over except you put a lid on it and the steroid cream is the lid. You’re keeping the inflammation that’s bubbling up under the surface but there’s still something going on. You take that steroid cream away and all of a sudden the symptom goes completely haywire. For example, you have eczema on the front of your thighs, you’ve been using a steroid cream for a really long time but you decide, “I’m going to go cold turkey. I’m just going to get rid of it, not going to use it anymore.” What can happen if you develop this condition? Now, the steroid creams are gone, the rash will get worse. Not only will it get worse but it will spread and alert many cases where it spreads to your entire body. It creates such a level of pain and suffering that is horrific for many people.

It’s flaky skin, red, itchy stinging rashes that are all over. Not just in the original place where the eczema or the rash was. You can end up with swelling, fatigue, infections, increased skin sensitivity and this can take up to a year to go away. There is a real concern that there is a lack of coaching amongst dermatologists and primary care doctors who are just saying “Oh, we’ll use a steroid cream.” Additionally, the other issue is that while you are putting this on the skin, it can thin the skin as well. It’s another long term problem. You can end up with discoloration and scarring but it also can affect your adrenal because you’re putting a steroid cream on your skin that is absorbed into the body.

There is really fascinating yet sad research demonstrating that the start long term steroid cream use does impact adrenal gland function. It’s even worse in children and babies because they’re so small and so young. I’m not saying anyone listening to this should stop using their steroid creams or throw them away. I think there’s a way to use them responsibly while you’re trying to do other things. I certainly did use it on my journey which I’m happy to talk about to how I made my shift. I wanted just caution anyone listening “Oh, my gosh. It’s like poison. I have to throw it away.” Don’t do that.


[14:44:00] Ashley James: Right. Neither one of us is a doctor. We cannot prescribe drugs. We cannot tell people to get off of a prescription. You definitely want to work with your dermatologist when tight trading off of medication or off of a skin cream that is medicated.

I like your idea of why don’t we come in and work on the root cause. Nitrify the body, correct the diet and lifestyle, figure out what happened that created this illness in the first place. Heal the body that way and get the body so strong that we can come off of the steroid cream, slowly while we’re bolstering the body and then we can have a smoother transition. Is that what you did? Did you have a smooth transition?


[15:34:00] Jennifer Fugo: No.


 [15:39:00] Ashley James: Did you just throw your cream and go cold turkey?


 [15:42:00] Jennifer Fugo: No. I was having trouble sleeping through the night. I would wake up sometimes and had discovered that I was scratching my hands in the middle of the night and then rip gashes in my skin. Discuss it with your doctor but the goal is to use the steroid cream as little as possible and as least frequent as possible. There are different theories like you’re on for so long and then you go off of it and you sort of alternate back and forth. I would just try to use it as sparingly as possible. In actuality, it’s interesting because there’s a lot of root causes. Right now I’m up to 16. There’s overlap amongst a few of them. It was 15, I recently added 16th, which is actually drug reactions.

A lot of people don’t realize that there are very common medications that can trigger your skin rashes and even things like psoriasis.

There are actual medications with psoriasis that can trigger problems. It’s important to understand that it’s not just a skin problem. I think that’s an important place to preface this conversation. I like to think of the body like ancient technology. The way it tells us things, communicates and sends us messages is sort of like through smoke signals. I wish it was computer technology but it’s not.  We would be like, “Oh, yes.  My vitamin A is low.” We would just know that right off the bat but we don’t instead, we have to get all of these random symptoms. The other piece to this is that the skin as far as priorities of Oregon systems are concerned is the lowest on the totem pole. You could walk around with gashes and wounds due to rashes that will not heal but if God forbid something happens to your heart or your brain or your lungs, you will die because those organs are more important. You can’t survive if your thyroid function is non-existent or if you don’t have any function in your mitochondria. That underscores the importance of saying, “What type of skin rash condition I have? What if the symptoms themselves are actually symptoms of something else going on deeper in the body?”   Take a look and say, “What can we ask our team from within and outside to help us put the pieces together?” There are a lot of root causes. Typically, in my experience, people have a combination of about three to five which is why, unfortunately what may work for one person, may not work for another person.

Do you want me to just share quickly what my list is?


[19:05:00] Ashley James: Yeah. I’ve got a pen and paper here. I’ve already written down number one which is drug reactions and waiting to write down the next 15.


[19:14:00] Jennifer Fugo: All right. We’ve got number two which is Mitochondrial Dysfunction — poor energy generation at the cellular level and we’re not efficiently producing ATP. We’ve got Hormone imbalances, Unmanaged stressHeavy metals, Environmental toxins –that could even include like paint fumes, raid on, off gassing, new carpeting or paints—


[19:45:00] Ashley James: Mattresses, Memory Foam, off gases.  I think there are eight carcinogens in memory foam.


[19:50:00] Jennifer Fugo: Exactly. Your jeans certainly play a role in some of this and we can talk more about that if you’d like. Diet and Food reactions are a piece of it but they are not as big of a piece as a lot of people think. Microbiome Dysbiosis is another one however when I say this, I want to clarify that this includes not just the gut microbiome but also the microbiome that lives on the skin and they are different, however, they communicate with one another.


[20:23:00] Ashley James: Can I just rub yogurt on my face? Would that help the microbiome on the skin?


[20:32:00] Jennifer Fugo: For some people, they might find that works. I know that people who don’t really have horrible skin conditions and maybe they’ve just got some dry skin may find that helpful. For a lot of people that do have skin rash conditions, there’s usually a lot more involved than just a yogurt mask.

I wish it was that easy but not always. Environmental allergies are another piece to that– like pollen, dogs, cats, horses, cockroaches. There are also a lot of chemicals in our environment that I personally never even knew about until I started really digging into this. These are formaldehyde– all sorts of things that are coding. Very common substances or items that we use in our daily life that you wouldn’t think had any chemical sprayed on them and they do. You can even have an allergy to your shoes. Some people who have rashes, severe cracking and pain with their feet can have Shoe Allergy. There are definite environmental allergies that have to be identified and looked at. 

Nutritional deficiencies certainly play a role in skin rash conditions. Autoimmunity and Autoinflammation, I consider those to be sort of in the same bucket. Gut Dysfunction and Liver Detox Challenges. We’ve also got trauma. Maybe your father died at a very young age and obviously, as a child that was traumatic for you. Maybe you were in a bad marriage or you went through a period of time where you lost your home or one of the crashes and whatnot. It could be anything from a really big trauma to little tiny trauma. I’ve even had some people discuss sexual assault in the past and whatnot. And then last but not least, thyroid dysfunction.


[22: 42:00] Ashley James: I think I wrote down 17. We’ve got the Environmental Allergens and the Environmental Toxins which were different. I wrote down 17. You got 17 root causes now.


[23:06:00] Jennifer Fugo: Maybe I do.


[23: 11:00] Ashley James: It totally makes sense. A few of them relate to histamine. When you say Diet reactions and Environmental Allergens both would trigger histamine. Is histamine the root cause? Is histamine what’s causing the skin issue?


[23:36:00] Jennifer Fugo: What’s interesting is that not everybody has an issue with histamine. When it comes to eczema, some people can have more histamine present. They have chronic urticaria or hives that can also certainly be a concern. There’s too much histamine in their system or they’re consuming foods– lots of fermented foods are not always good for people with chronic skin issues. One of the first questions I asked someone on the phone is “Oh, well, I have ecz.” I go, “Okay, can you please tell me the symptoms of your experience of that particular skin condition?” They sometimes pause and they’re like “Why? That’s what I have.” I’m like, “I understand but your symptoms are going to be different than someone else’s. You can’t assume that because you have eczema or you have psoriasis. It’s the same exact problem that’s triggered this issue.”

I have had clients who some have histamine issues and I’m part of their eczema issue. I have other clients with eczema who have no issues with histamine at all.


[24: 48:00] Ashley James: Very cool. So, histamine isn’t at the root cause but it can be sort of the trigger.


[24:56:00] Jennifer Fugo: Exactly.


[24: 59:00] Ashley James: How do you feel about going through each one and unpacking them?


[25:03:00] Jennifer Fugo: I don’t know if we have time for all of that. We can certainly talk about a few of them.

The one that we started with number one, the drug reactions piece was the most shocking to me because a lot of people assume that over the counter drugs are safe. Again, this conversation is not meant to at all demonize medication because my dad’s a doctor and a surgeon and frankly, I don’t necessarily think with skin issues, we should throw the baby out with the bathwater and say, “Oh, we don’t need any of the medications that are available.” I don’t actually think that’s entirely true. I think there are a time and a place and whatever you choose to do you should jump in with your eyes wide open. The biggest piece people are promised is “Oh, if you take this pill or you get the shots, you’re going to be better.”

I literally had a conversation with a woman this morning that has horrible full-body eczema. She has been on Dupixent which is one of the biologic drugs that is supposed to be the spike Godsend to completely cure your eczema so you no longer have it and you walk around eczema free. She said it makes her living experience more tolerable however, she still has incredible itching; her face looks like it’s constantly burnt. The Dupixent has not fully addressed her issue and she’s like, “I can’t live like this. I need to find out what is driving the inflammation underneath the whole thing!”

With psoriasis, there were some really surprising drugs and I only found this out because a woman who tuned in to my Eczema and Psoriasis Awareness Week last year had rung me and said, “Did you know that a blood pressure medication could actually cause your psoriasis.” I was like, “Excuse me.”  It turns out that these very common medications are called Beta-blockers as well as Ace inhibitors. Those are two classes and there are also Angiotensin Receptor Blockers. All three of those have the potential to trigger or worsen psoriasis for people.

Other ones that you might also be surprised about are like Lithium. If you’ve been taking Lithium to help with your mood, you can have skin-related side effects. We see that for about up to 45% of people who take them and who take those supplements.

Anti-infection medications– one very common is Plaquenil. There are people who take that that can cause flares on about 31% of people who have psoriasis. Plaquenil is considered an Immunosuppressant drug. The other class of medications which maybe you’ve talked about on your show is the Fluoroquinolones which are a class of antibiotics that actually in at least in the United States has a warning placed on it by the FDA because of so many problems with it. The most popular drugs that people probably know is Cipro. Aside from the fact that there are potential issues with how it can damage mitochondrial function, this is one of those drug classes that can actually cause problems for people with psoriasis and other skin issues. Tetracycline, interferon, and TNF or tumor necrosis factor alpha-inhibitors medication can do this. A lot of these are biologic medications which shockingly are medications that are prescribed to people with psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis like Remicade and Humira. I’m not trying to scare people. The point is to say, “Hey, I really actually should read what the side effects could be.” While the 2% doesn’t seem like a lot, what happens if you are the 2%?

I’ve talked about with the Gut stuff and said drugs– non-steroidal anti-inflammatories like ibuprofen but that can also trigger or worsen psoriasis as well. There’s a lot of gut involvement with enzymes that can increase gut permeability, as well as the risk of Gut bleeding throughout either the stomach or the GI system. It’s important, as far as drugs are concerned, to just take a look at all the medications that you’re on and double-check that they aren’t maybe the reason for why this happened. Think back to the time around when the rashes started in. Did you start medication? You know, it’s important to think about these types of things.

The most common piece to a lot of this that I see is typically Gut Dysfunction. When I say dysfunction, I actually include Gut infections or Dysbiosis and the NutritionalDeficiencies piece– those two are huge problems.


[30: 08:00] Ashley James: Let’s get into those then. I do have a question about drugs. Have you seen that some people have their skin problem because it was triggered by a drug that they were on? Let’s say a course of antibiotics like the tetracycline. Or they were on a blood pressure medication and now they’re no longer taking it, the drugs are no longer in their system but the skin issues still there? Is the drug what triggered it and turned it on? They have four or five other things all contributing to their inflammation now, those other issues are continuing it. Do you see the drugs kind of like start the fire? Or do you find that when drugs are the reason why that they have a skin problem, that when they switch their medication or get off of a drug that the skin issue goes away?


[31:04:00] Jennifer Fugo: That’s really complicated because if you took one of these antibiotics, it’s like dropping a bomb in your gut. At that point, whether you stay on that antibiotic or not, you’ve now dramatically impacted the makeup of your microbiome. You allow for opportunistic bugs to go crazy; yeast and fungal organisms. If you inhale, swallow or eat contaminated foods that get through your stomach, you can end up with infections. That’s a tricky question. I don’t know that I actually have the answer to that. A lot of people have these things in their past. That’s a bigger problem from what I see on my end.

Gut is one piece to this however, new research is telling us that there are very distinct communication conduit, so to speak between the microbiome in the gut and the microbiome that is on the skin. To be clear in case anybody’s thinking, “Oh, well, the bugs must be the same.” They’re not. There are similar classes of bacteria or phyla of bacteria but they’re not the same exact types because the bacteria on the skin eat lipids, it’s called a Lipid dome. Whereas the bugs that live in the digestive system really prefer to eat fiber.  We know about FodMap foods and fermented foods.

Researchers showing us that when you have a healthy microbiome and you’re eating plenty of fermented fibers, they will produce their waste products called Short Chain Fatty Acids. Those Short Chain Fatty Acids are really important for the acidification of the gut microbiome because you actually want a more acidic colon. You don’t want an alkaline colon but you don’t want it to be too acidic.

The body regions, as far as pH is concerned need to be within very specific ranges in order to maintain a certain level of health. Part of the reasons why it’s too crowd out is there are bugs that shouldn’t be there. What research is telling us now about Short Chain Fatty Acids is that they actually communicate – that is the communication device of how the bugs in your gut are then establishing a healthy microbiome balance on the skin and butyrate which is one of the three. There are actually three short chain fatty acids but butyrate is one of the most important ones. When we have enough butyrate that can really help rebalance the microbiome of the skin — it’s not to say it’s going to fix all of your problems but you have to ask yourself, “Why don’t I have enough butyrate? Why don’t I have enough acetate or propionate? Why don’t I have enough of these?” It’s like an onion, you’re peeling back the layers. Do I have an infection? Do I have Gut Dysbiosis? What’s going on in the Gut? Am I not eating enough fiber? You have to really take a look at what’s under the hood so to speak. What is going on in the gut can show up on the skin.

I’m currently working with a boy whose 13 years old and unfortunately when we did stool test on him he came back having the most Gut infections I have ever had a client have. It was no wonder that nothing they did topically would work because it was so many problems underneath the surface and as a result the gut is no longer in a state where it wants to invite in nutrients because it’s leaky.

You don’t have to have gut symptoms to have Gut infections or dysbiosis. I have clients who have really messed up skin and they swear to me up and down, “I poop like a champ, poop 123 times a day. I’m really good. No problems, there are no gas, no bloating, no nothing.” They’re still tests come back with dysbiosis, too much yeast or infections. It just so happens that it manifest on the skin in that particular case. Don’t write off a Gut issue just because you don’t have any gas or bloating or you poop normal. It’s really important to look at the puzzle without judgment and take a look from the very basic things. I’m sure you know too, you do that with your clients. It’s always like, what’s going on with digestive function? Are we eating good quality food? Are we bringing in enough nutrients? That’s a big piece to this puzzle.


[36: 30:00] Ashley James: You mentioned a stool test, do you look at parasites? In some way, we could consider yeast, Candida as a parasite. Parasites don’t have to all be worms. It could be worms and flukes. Looking at parasites, is that something you’d add to your list as potentially causes for skin problems?


[36:57:00] Jennifer Fugo: Yes, absolutely. You’re looking at anything that shouldn’t or either shouldn’t be in the gut or isn’t too high of a proportion. Everybody under the sun has Candida in their gut. You should actually have it. It’s actually a normal commensal organism. You just shouldn’t have it in excessive amounts. We’re looking for fungal organisms and all different types. It doesn’t necessarily have to be Candida Albicans, Giardia– anything that really shouldn’t be there. There are certainly ways if we suspect for example that somebody who’s traveled extensively overseas. I have one client that did many tours over in Africa while he was working for a nonprofit. He’s living in the villages and eating their food and I was like, “You got to get checked for worms. You have to.” You have worms and parasites because you have a level of potential exposure that most people don’t have. A dermatologist can’t figure out what’s going on. It’s also Gut function making sure that you have enough stomach acid, that you’ve got enough digestive enzymes being produced by your pancreas and have enough bile. If you don’t have your gallbladder anymore, you’re not able to absorb fats. Nutritional deficiencies are a big piece to this if you don’t have enough vitamin A and vitamin D, which are both fat soluble or if your gut is just super leaky you have a higher incidence of fats being lost out of the stool.

If the gut is super leaky and unhappy, you can end up with Keratosis Pilari. That’s a very common sign of vitamin A deficiency where you get those little like chicken skin bumps on the back of the arms and whatnot. Vitamin D is also very important for the skin as well. The Gut is a big first piece to consider.


[39: 04:00] Ashley James: I love that you pointed that out. I was getting on the Examination Table when I was pregnant, my naturopath held my arm to help me—a giant pregnant lady trying to get on the examination table and her hand touched my elbow and she went, “Oh, you’re vitamin D deficient. We need to increase your vitamin D.”  I’m looking at her like “What are you, psychic? You just touched me and you know I’m vitamin D deficient.” She goes, “No, you’ve got these dry patches on your elbow.”  I’d never had them and I reached over and touch my elbow like “What is going on?” I could like sand wood with this skin around my arm.  All the skin around my elbow was like sandpaper and she said, “Yeah, that’s typical vitamin D deficiency.” Sure enough, increase my vitamin D went away. I was like,” What? How can that does so cool?”

You’re right. If someone doesn’t have their gallbladder, their diet and digestion isn’t allowing them to take in the fat soluble vitamins, digest them and absorb them and utilize them then we can end up with skin problems because those are the raw building blocks the body needs to create skin. What’s amazing about skin is that it is the reflection of our internal health and it’s the early warning system– it’s the canary in the coal mine. Instead of being upset when we have a skin problem, we can take on this level of excitement, “Oh, great. My body is telling me something’s wrong. There’s something that I can correct now, way before it becomes disease in the body.”

I only have so much vitamin C and the skin needs it but the body is so intelligent that it’ll take the nutrients we give it and it’ll give it to the organs that are most important first. That’s why when we get thin hair, our skin starts to suffer and our nails start to become brittle. These lesser important systems of the body will see the effects of Nutrient Deficiency first before the heart and the liver does so we can correct it. The good news is it’s on our body where we can clearly see there’s something wrong.


[41:31:00] Jennifer Fugo: It is. One piece of this which is worth mentioning because it’s a term that has become more popular is Leaky Gut. A lot of people haven’t yet or are just hearing about a term called Leaky Skin. It actually doesn’t sound that lovely and it sounds awful.


[42: 01:00] Ashley James: It sounds like a zombie show.


[42:04:00] Jennifer Fugo: Yeah, it’s just not good. Leaky Skin is essentially where there’s so much inflammation happening within the body and at the level of the skin. It’s both internal and the outside.  I think we have to look outside in and inside out– that’s really the two directions we need to look with skin.

Let me just break this down a little bit for people. How do I end up with inflammation on the outside? Yes, it could certainly be due to a microbiome imbalance. You could have staph infection or overgrowth of any number of things but also just itching– itching in and of itself increases the inflammation in the skin which is another reason why I said don’t just throw out your steroid creams because you do to some degree have to try as you’re working on the “alternative and natural stuff”.  You have to maintain some level of not just sanity but to decrease the amount of gashing that you’re doing to your skin trying to stop or quell that itch.

When we think about what the skin really is– it’s like a bunch of bricks or the shingles of a house. We start to see a breakdown of the glue that holds the shingles together in one nice pattern that will help A. retain moisture within the skin but also B. keep things very smooth and lovely looking.

What’s really fascinating is that there is this gene called Filaggrin. We see that there is an increased rate of Filaggrin dysfunction. Filaggrin is a gene but it also codes for a very specific protein called Filaggrin that helps keep the skin barrier nice and tight. When we start to see when inflammation elevates, it disrupts the way that the gene is coded and you start getting funky filaggrin that can’t really operate correctly.

A lot of the research and the interviews that I’ve done show that people who have hand eczema have a higher increased risk of having just an actual genetic snip in Filaggrin. You don’t necessarily need to have a snip in it to have an issue with the way your body produces Filaggrin. I talked to Dr. Peter Leo who’s a very well respected and brilliant dermatologist. He had said that just any level of inflammation, whether it’s from scratching or its internal will cause a disruption in the way the body produces Filaggrin. It’s critical to try to reduce the inflammation no matter what you need to do because that is really a big deal. I just want to also specify that this isn’t just affecting people with eczema, it also affects people with psoriasis and I would likely assume that it probably affects people with other chronic skin rash conditions as well. There are other genes out there that we should be aware of per se but if you’ve got an autoimmune condition like psoriasis or scleroderma there are typically genes associated with those conditions. There is some level of genetic susceptibility. Filaggrin is probably the number one to really pay attention to but there’s no way inexpensively to get tested for this. I don’t know if you can find out from 23andMe test. At the end of the day, I’m not really sure what value would do if you even found out you had a snip on it but genes certainly play a role.

When you have this Leaky Skin condition which most people have when they have skin issues, it’s really important to be judicious about what you’re putting on your skin and what you are eating. I don’t want to make people crazy with their diet— that’s always my fear. I don’t want to instill food fear in people because you’re always going, “What’s the next thing we can take out? What’s the next thing we should avoid? What’s bad for us?” We are oftentimes kind of get lost amongst the trees. I always think, “Let’s try and eat the most nutrient-rich diet humanly possible.” Cut out the junk, just cut it out– that’s the first step. Cut it out because if you came to see me, that’s the first thing that I’m going to tell you to do. We’ve got to make sure that its nutrient rich because that way we’re not just supporting the skin but our thyroid and liver. We’re supporting many different areas that require nutrients in order to function properly.  

Coconut oil is not something that anyone with skin rashes should put on their skin. I even am at a point where I’m starting to wonder if it’s not the greatest idea for people who have perfectly clear skin as well. You’ve got to be really judicious about what you put on your skin. There are a lot of products at grocery stores and pharmacies that are geared toward super dry skin and their eczema formulas — those things are formulated in such a way that you constantly require the use of them. They actually dry your skin out so you keep using them. We go to the natural stuff and the first thing people read about online is coconut oil and it’s really not a good idea for rashes.

[48:27:00] Ashley James: Why is that?


[48:30:00] Jennifer Fugo: Remember how I was telling you that the colon is an actually an acidic environment, the skin is as well. Your skin ideally should have a pH between 4.5 and five, maybe 5.5. It’s a tight little slice of the pH scale and that’s healthy. For those who think like everything’s got to be alkaline. It is actually healthy for certain areas to be acidic.

Coconut oil– first of all, it’s way too alkaline. It comes in and around a pH of eight. When I said that it is important that the colon is acidic because if it gets imbalanced and the pH goes high or low, it invites in organisms that shouldn’t live there and the same happens with the skin– that’s number one. You might be thinking, “What if you have like bad bugs living on your skin? Wouldn’t you want it because it’s really antimicrobial?” It makes complete sense– that’s what I used to think but unfortunately, coconut oil is so incredibly anti-microbial that it decimates the microbiome on the skin leaving it wide open for opportunistic bugs to take up residence, which is not what you want.

If you got the skin rashes, we know right there you’ve got some state of Leaky Skin. You’ve also likely got Dysbiosis on the skin. Is it really smart? Think about it. If you know you’ve got Dysbiosis, would you just throw antibiotics? You’d be like, “No, that doesn’t make any sense.”  I’m not saying Coconut oil is an antibiotic but you have to understand that the level of anti-microbial capacity of coconut oil is way too high for your skin.

Oftentimes, people just put oil on the skin. The bugs don’t just like magically repack back up. They don’t reappear because it takes time to reestablish a microbiome. The last big problem is that the molecules are so saturated and the molecules of coconut oil are so large. It’s very difficult for them to actually penetrate into the skin which is why it oftentimes feels that coconut oil will stay on the surface of the skin. It does not absorb in and sometimes it causes hot situation on the skin which is very uncomfortable for people. It makes it difficult for the skin to breathe.

I’ve even had a few people describe it to me as kind of felt almost like I had saran wrap around my arm or whatever. I just didn’t put two and two together. I will say just from a clinical perspective, I have had more and more clients who have discovered that it was actually causing almost like an allergic reaction. I have one client that had severe swelling across her face and her eyes were all red and super itchy. She already had a rash there and read online on someone’s website that you should use coconut oil. She started using coconut oil and it was getting worse and worst. She couldn’t figure out what the problem was and finally came across this article that’s on my website about the issues with coconut oil. I advised her to stop within about a week; she noticed such a significant improvement. She’s like, “I have almost no rash on my face anymore. I had no idea that it was actually the coconut oil.”

We have a ton of comments from people who have acknowledged that coconut oil either made their skin rashes worse. I have one woman– a massage therapist that commented that she would always use coconut oil on clients and massage table. Her hands as a result have gotten so bad from using coconut oil. I love coconut oil. It’s not to demonize it or to say that it is bad but I think maybe we’ve gone a little too foreign assuming that it’s good for everything.

I have talked with experts who have done testing on the antimicrobial capacity of coconut oil and they advised me that it was not a good option. I have also talked to aestheticians who have a lot of experience in formulation and working with people with chronic skin conditions. They too also said it is really one of the worst choices. You need to look at your skincare products with skincare ingredient labels, the same applies as food. The first ingredients are the highest concentration and the lower ones are the least if it’s really in. I would say the top two thirds in the ingredients are probably not a good product for you to be using.

There are some instances where it may be okay for me, I wouldn’t mind if it’s one of the probably top two thirds. I wouldn’t use it if it was the first at all. I don’t have skin rashes anymore and I don’t use a whole lot of oils anymore on my skin aside from Ahava. If you have got skin Dysbiosis you should not go anywhere near coconut oil.


[54:14:00] Ashley James: I know everyone’s different because someone might react and the other person thinks it’s wonderful. There’s no blanket statement, we all have to do trial and error. What are your favorite ingredients that are helpful for supporting skin health when they’re also working on healing themselves internally?


[54:38:00] Jennifer Fugo: I love Ahava oil because it is the closest to the human sebum. It’s just very nice and inexpensive as well. Sesame seed oil, not the stuff you cook with but the actual stuff made for body care can be great. I find that if you’re in a cold environment or winter time it’s great because it’s very warming. In the summertime, it’s probably too heavy and it also has a really intense smell so you might not want to put that on as your daily oil. Avocado oil and Olive oil are really good options as well. There’s also some really interesting good research on sunflower oil and eczema.

As far as herbs are concerned, Calendula is amazing. Assuming, you don’t have an allergy to the daisy family since it is a part of the daisy family. Just make sure if you’ve got outdoor pollen allergy issues, you just want to make sure that that’s not one. I love stinging nettles but more so to support the liver. Stinging nettles and Quercetin together can be a really amazing support for histamine. It’s a great antioxidant as well.

As far as the skin is concerned, I think one of the biggest things is to stop showering every day. I know that sounds very simplistic but we oftentimes over shower and over sudsing. You do not need to suds your entire body– it is absolutely unnecessary unless you’re really filthy. A lot of times the water is enough and you should only be sudsing the armpits, groin and rear end. Showering every day can be really tough. Again, I’m not a doctor but my suggestion is to see if you can get down to showering every other day or every three days that way we’re just reducing the depletion of the healthy flora. Don’t be afraid to get outside and be in the dirt. There’s some incredible research that’s coming out about the circadian rhythm and being out in the sun assuming you can tolerate it, getting your hands in the dirt assuming you didn’t have some sort of hand eczema issue but exposing yourself to healthy bacteria. It can be super important and a lot of times the disconnection with the outdoor environment and excessive amounts of stressors in your life certainly play a role.


[58:04:00] Ashley James: Absolutely. Stress is huge. I like that you said to get out in nature. You’re getting vitamin D from the sun and you’re decreasing stress from bathing in nature. For example, digging in the dirt gardening– is there a link between interacting with the healthy bacteria in nature such as gardening and our skin’s bacteria?


[58:33:00] Jennifer Fugo: Absolutely. The more fascinating pieces that I’m constantly reading upon is the Microbiome and the Skin. One big problem is that we’ve reached over sanitizing everything. Everything is like kills 99.999% of bacteria. Why do we need to assume that all bacteria are going to kill us? It doesn’t mean they’re necessarily bad. There are not friendly bugs out there but we used to have an abundant population of what are known as Ammonia-Oxidizing Bacteria on the skin.  They were considered the Peacekeepers of the skin.

We’re now seeing this rise within the skincare industry of companies that are essentially engineering probiotic-based skincare products to help reestablish that microbiome. I know that Mother Dirt is one company that specifically uses those ammonia-oxidizing bacteria. I’ve come across a number of other companies as well that are integrating probiotics into their product. I think Skin Probiotics is one company that’s specifically all the formulas are generated around probiotics. The big companies, I think it is L’Oreal– I don’t remember which big company but they’re coming out with now ways to test the acidity of your skin. I wouldn’t be surprised within the next probably two to five years we will eventually have a really easy at-home test for you to check the microbiome of your skin since the ones for the Gut have done so well.

Being outside is a critical piece. It can be hard for people who have a lot of environmental allergies, I do understand that. This is general advice and it may not work for everyone. You’re going to have to pick and choose what you can do and what will work for you.

Stress reduction is important not just for the body as a whole but stress can be a major trigger for so many things. There are a lot of people that have found the connection between stressors and their skin rash flares. Even with psoriasis, there’s some interesting research showing that there’s a real decrease in serum melatonin in people who have psoriasis. When we have low melatonin it can make it very difficult to sleep at night. When you’re not sleeping well or you’re just so uncomfortable and you’re itching like mad because your cortisol has gone high in the evening. As a result, there’s this really cool correlation between elevated cortisol and increased itching at night. We’re just not regenerating within our body the way we should and it’s incredibly stressful. It depletes our micronutrients. It depletes antioxidants. It really wears down your mitochondria and taxes your liver tremendously and it makes it a lot easier for your gut to become leaky.

We can argue that Leaky Gut comes from enzymes or gut infections or too much yeast. Stress plays a huge role in what happens in your Gut. It affects everything. We have to take that seriously and consider the solutions. “The solutions for stress reduction” as seriously as say the supplements you might want to go by because oftentimes what I find and I don’t know if this has been your experience as well Ashley, but a lot of times people are like, “Can I just take a supplement?” I’ll say, “Could you sit for two minutes a day and breathe? I’m really busy. I’ll try.” We’ll talk a month later I’m like, “So, how did the breathing exercises go?” “I do not like once and then I kind of forgot.”

I assure you, they’ve taken all their supplements just fine. I’m not laughing at anyone, it just makes me chuckle that the thing that’s free, oftentimes tends to be the hardest things for us to comply with because we don’t perceive the value of them to be as great as something that maybe cost you 3995.


 [01:03:27] Ashley James: Anyone who’s listening, I will charge you 3995 and I’ll sit with you for two minutes a day. We’ll get on the phone, you’ll breathe and you can just pay me.  I’ll just sit on the phone and we’ll breathe then you will value reducing your stress. People can pay to go to meditation classes and Yoga classes. You can pay for apps. There’s Calm Beats or something– they can pay for the pro version. There are things that we could pay to perceived more value. You’re right. The best ways of reducing stress are free– walking, journaling, breathing, hugging, laughing–.


[01:04:10] Jennifer Fugo:  Put on your favorite music, sing and dance in the comforts of your own home. Dance like nobody’s watching you– there is something so freeing and uplifting to that. Prayer, mantras, whatever faith you are, there are prayers and there are ways to meditate in any religion.

If you’re really also feeling very down and out, reach out to someone who’s a professional and talk to them because the other piece to this is that these skin conditions are incredibly debilitating. They can be at times very painful. They are very embarrassing. They cause a tremendous amount of shame and there is a really sad increase risk of suicide associated with many of them.

I’m on these Facebook groups and people say, “I know this sounds so stupid but I don’t know where else to say this and I just need to say it. My mother in law keeps picking on me about my skin or this friend of mine made some nasty comment.” Those are not little things when you’re in the midst of suffering and the people around you go about it because they can’t relate to what someone’s going through. It really isn’t helpful.

For anyone listening to this too, if you’re like, “Oh, my sister has eczema or my husband has psoriasis.” If you’re listening to this, just understand that sometimes we just want someone to be present for us. We don’t necessarily want a solution or you to tell us how we don’t know to wash our hands or we don’t know what type of soap to use. It’s not really helpful. Oftentimes, you just want somebody to hear you and listen to you. You don’t necessarily want advice but if you’re really feeling very sad, one of the biggest pieces if you’re really feeling hopeless, go talk to somebody because there are people out there who understand. I think living with skin rashes which I did for about three years is really living in hell so I understand so acutely all the pain that people go through every day. On top of it, I work with clients now so I am privy to a lot of the things that they’re going through that I maybe didn’t.

Stress and Traumas are big pieces to this. There is actual scientific research to back that up. Understand that all the times we have to go out in public and you’ve got rashes everywhere is traumatizing. Every time people make comments or they just have that stare and they won’t stop staring at you. They are not really looking at you. They’re looking at your skin trying to figure out whether they want to be near you. It is traumatizing and stressful. We just want to feel accepted. I’m not comparing it at all to people who have those more like hidden diseases like Hashimoto where people think you are lazy because you are tired but you are not. It’s just a different type of hell that people go through. Know that no matter where you are on your journey there are people that understand you and you don’t necessarily have to go it alone. There are other things that you can do even if you feel like you’ve hit a wall and the doctor or dermatologists just shrug and don’t know what else to tell you. There are other options out there.

The big reason why I started Skinterrupt is that I felt that the way we were addressing these issues is so failed. It lacks empathy and understanding of the daily struggles that people go through. At this point, I cannot understand why it is acceptable to allow people to walk out of someone’s medical office time and time again in so much suffering and pain. That’s why I started Skinterrupt, I want to pull the curtain back and not just to help people find the alternatives that may work for them but to also say, “Hey, dermatology, we need to get with a program. This is not acceptable anymore. We need better options. You also have an obligation to tell your patients about all these other things that you’re not telling them.”  What is cool about The Healthy Skin Show is that it is the opportunity that I have. We’re connecting with researchers, doctors, nutritionists, dietitians and even people who have gone through it. You can talk about their story in an empowering and uplifting way.

I’m sharing all of that with people because I don’t know what exactly your three to five root causes may be. I want to make sure that there is no excuse anymore and the research that’s out there doesn’t ever see the light of day. All of us deserve to know that there is incredible research going on that could impact our health. There are ways to do things that can dramatically change your daily experience living with skin rashes and maybe even help rebuild skin that’s healthy but we’re just not getting it from our doctors. Don’t get me wrong, we need them and I wish I would love to bring them into the fold. I’m collaborating with doctors right now who are working in a more integrative way and want to see this get out there. We as patients, we also need to demand better. What I’m just hoping is to not see another person suffer– that’s my goal.  If I can just help one person I’d be happy today and I’ll be happy tomorrow.  That’s why I’m doing this is because we deserve better.


[01:10:25] Ashley James: Yes, doctors have their place. Allopathic medicine has its place.  We need to stop putting them on a pedestal and treat them like they are on our team of health professionals. They are not. We hire them not the other way around. We hire them as professionals and we need to make sure we find a doctor that doesn’t have hubris, doesn’t put their ego first, isn’t upset that we do our own research and doesn’t feel challenged when we advocate for ourselves. We need to find doctors and put them on our team and we need to make sure we have a team of professionals. We don’t just have one doctor, we have a team of professionals that we work with that advice, guide and help us. We’re the experts of our own body because we’re the ones living in it. We listen to our symptoms, we may not understand what the symptoms be that’s why we go to our experts for the tests and for the information just like people can go to you and work with you to do tests or you can go to your doctor and you and in naturopath. We can have multiple health professionals on our team. Let them know all what’s going on, get all of their input and do all of the tests we want to do. I want people to be empowered to know that we should never put a doctor on a pedestal.

They are not the end-all. They get almost no training in nutrition and a lot of doctors have been brainwashed in a sense to believe that food and nutrition are not really important. Now, a lot of doctors are waking up. They are getting more education outside of the mainstream MD Education. They are going towards integrative or functional medicine which is fantastic. We can also see professionals like naturopaths who always want to be on the cutting edge of the research and studies around how we can heal the body at the root level which is exactly what you’re doing. I love the list you outlined today. I think we have 18 things now because we included parasites.  Your list keeps growing. It is important to see that it is not just cut out the gluten although that really helps. I recently had a naturopathic dermatologist in from Toronto on the show and she did say that she has never helped someone heal their skin if they stayed on gluten.


[01:13:05] Jennifer Fugo:  I agree.


[01:13:07] Ashley James: There are certain things you need to stop eating like fried food. You can’t heal the body if you’re eating fries every day because the oils are horribly damaging. Gluten is damaging. People say, “Well, I got tested and I’m not celiac. I’m not allergic to gluten.” Our body can’t digests the proteins. They’re mechanically torn through the Gut and rip apart the microbiome, increase the leaky gut and do damage to the microbial. I know you’re absolutely in agreement that there are certain foods that we need to be diligent about when healing our body, our gut, and our skin.

In case someone’s listening to this and never considered cutting out junk food. I honor everyone listening wherever they are on their journey because I was there too, so was Jen. We’ve all been there and we’re all going to be on our healing journey together. What are the top junk foods that everyone benefits from removing? What are the top healing foods that everyone within reason benefits from because of the nutrient density of those foods?


[01:14:37] Jennifer Fugo:  As far as junk foods, definitely fried, fast foods, and lots of packaged and refined. The standard diet here is pretty much not going to work. If you can get more healthy whole foods into your diet that will certainly help. It is just to crowd things out instead of being like, “Oh, my gosh. If you take everything away from me, what am I going to eat?” Super high sugar, sodas and fried foods are not great. Cured products like hot dogs and things. I’m not anti-hotdog. I eat meat but we have to look for better quality. We are looking at price over quality and then we’re over eating as a result. We’re taking in and consuming a ton of really refined junky inflammatory foods as a result.

I’m not trying to make any health claims about this. These are just foods that I find that a lot of people can be helped with as far as skin issues.  As far as something that is healthy to add in, Ground flax can be really helpful however with a caveat. If you have diarrhea, it will probably not going to work for you and might make things worse. Avoid ground flax if you have diarrhea but if you don’t, one to two tablespoons a day is great. You can add it into a protein shake or your oatmeal or whatever it is that you’re consuming.


 [01:16:25] Ashley James: Drink lots of water and get ready to poop.


[01:16:28] Jennifer Fugo:  Yes. Oats are great for the skin.  A lot has to do with the Beta-glucans that are associated with oats but just get certified gluten-free oats. Oats are contaminated with gluten as a result of the way that they are harvested and processed on machinery. It increases gut permeability which we don’t certainly want when we’re dealing with gut issues.

I love collagen. For people who do eat meat, or at least open to the idea of consuming collagen look specifically for types one and three. Those are the most beneficial for the skin as well as for your Gut. There’s some great research on that. I just want to specify that there is no such thing as a vegan or plant based version of collagen, even if you see that– that’s not collagen. They basically put together the raw ingredients like vitamin C and glycine and a bunch of other things and say hope that your body will remake collagen. I have yet to see research that those vegan collagens actually really make a big dent on the areas that we’re looking for. You can typically find beef, sometimes chicken but mostly beef and fish derived collagen products are what are on the market these days.

The other one is Ghee– believe it or not, is a really great skin food. Not to apply topically but to eat because it is pretty high in butyrate. We had talked about the butyrate being really important for your Gut and Ghee is high in butyrate. If you have a dairy allergy, that’s a completely different story. I would probably avoid Ghee if you have an allergy to dairy but if you just have sensitivity to dairy, or you’re lactose intolerant, Ghee will probably be okay because the milk proteins and the sugars are removed. I love adding Ghee to my food anywhere from one to four teaspoons of Ghee a day can be really great.

Beats are also amazing because they have a lot of vitamin C. Beats have high levels of salicylates and if you have problem processing salicylates rich foods that would be an issue. It’s not a food problem but a liver detoxification issue. If you’re finding that beats and other high salicylate foods, trigger flares then you may need to increase the amount of glycine and B6 in your diet and even some magnesium to help your liver process the salicylates which are phytochemicals naturally occurring in these foods. If you’re on methotrexate because you have psoriasis, beats may be something best to avoid because it actually can interact with the medication.

Last but not least, salmon. I love salmon. It’s a really great option because of the omega 3.  I would encourage you to get wild caught salmon as opposed to the Alantic salmon simply because wild caught is typically better and has more omega 3s than farm raised salmon. Those would be my go-to as far as superfood for skin.


[01:20:0] Ashley James: My husband I have been allergic to dairy but we cannot tolerate dairy because it is hidden in food. I am in massive pain. We don’t eat it anymore but when we did, everything was fine. It was really cool because you can get Ghee that says does not have any lactose.


[01:20:34] Jennifer Fugo:  Yeah. What’s really funny is that I recently discovered that there’s such a thing as Goat and Yak ghee– it doesn’t have to just be from cows. You can order it online and it actually tastes very good. It’s not quite the same taste as cow’s milk but it does taste like ghee. It was just different. If you’re afraid of cow’s milk, you could certainly try those versions as well.


[01:21:00] Ashley James: What about the Gaps diet? It’s meant to heal the Gut that has really high in collagen and lots of bone broth. Are you in alignment to the Gaps diet if someone wants to heal their gut?


[01:21:14] Jennifer Fugo:  I’ll be honest with you. The only problem with diets to heal the gut is if you have infections they are not going to do much. I just see such a high incidence of infections and the same goes with AIP. It’s great but if you’re not seeing results after three months, you have something else going on.

I’ve talked to Mickey and she’s like, “People keep pressing on and on, hoping that something’s going to change.” In reality, the whole time they have had gut infections and the diet is not going to fix that. We have to put some practical cut-offs here saying that maybe there’s so much I can do and try up front. If I’m really not seeing results or I’m getting worse, I actually need to reach out for health because it’s more complicated, to be honest with you and to be entirely transparent.

If you would ask me to tell you all of this stuff three years ago, even five years ago before I started my master’s program, there’s no way I could have rattled all of this stuff off. I have learned so much about biochemistry and the way the body works. I’m not saying I am the smartest person out there. There are some people out there in the world that are brilliant people and I love listening to them. You can’t expect to be an expert in every single thing. I’m not messing around with my pipes If I think I got a leak or if I think there’s a problem with my electricity in my house, I’m calling electrician and so there’s no shame in reaching out and asking for help.

Be careful if you start eliminating a lot of food from your diet and you don’t know what you’re deficient in. You’re not bringing those specific nutrients back, you just dig the hole deeper and it takes a lot longer to dig yourself back out. Sometimes if you’re just like “I don’t know what to do, I’m overwhelmed.” It’s good to ask for help and know too that there are psoriasis diet and eczema diet. I know many people who have been on them that I worked with and they’ve changed their diet. They’ve done all sorts of low salicylates, no histamine, low histamine, and gluten-free, dairy-free, egg-free, sugar-free, whatever. They’re on such little foods and they’re not getting any better. I’m not saying that food doesn’t have power but because sometimes the chronic skin issues are so complicated. You can’t just assume that food will fix them all. If it does for you that is awesome and kudos to you but it does not for everyone.


[01:23:51] Ashley James: Right and that’s why there’s 18 things that we need to look at. We have to look at all them and like you said, most people have four or five or six issues at once. Everyone is stressed. We just have to go through the list and go, “How can I support? How can we all support our liver?” I think we could all benefit from liver support. “How can we support detoxifying? How can we support the diet in a way that’s the most nutrient dense? How can we support getting the good bacteria back in alignment on our skin and in our gut and get the parasites out and heal the gaps so that we don’t have the leaky gut or the leaky skin?  It’s everything; it’s a holistic.

I have a friend and I’ve mentioned this story before on my show so listeners have listened to a bunch of episodes might have heard it. I have a best friend in Toronto, she’s in her 60s and she was born with Ichthyosis. It’s a very rare skin condition where 70 or 80% of her skin was covered in very thick scales. Chunks of skin would fall off her and bleed. It was sort of piles of what looks like sandpaper around because they would fall off of her. She’s such a wonderful woman but she was born with this and her father had it. If you look at the old textbooks on Ichthyosis, all the pictures of the condition are her father because in Canada they studied him. They took pictures of him and put them all the textbooks. They said it’s genetic, there’s nothing you can do. She’s always been into health so she eats healthy as she could. She’s been taking supplements for over 30 years, probably over 40 years. She noticed that she could kind of calm down a bit and she had to do a morning and a night routine. She would make her own topical agents and rub herself from head to toe at morning and night. If she didn’t do this then she would not be able to walk. It would be so horrible to her hands or feet and she couldn’t move her hands.

Back about eight years ago, I had met one of the naturopaths that trained me that I mentored under and he was actually in intro of the time giving a lecture. I called her up and said, “You have to go see him and suck his brain out and just absorb as much as you can. This guy’s amazing.” She raised her hand when it came to question time and said, “I have Ichthyosis.” He stopped her and said, “It’s not genetic. Don’t listen to them. Here’s what you need to do. You need to stop eating gluten.” He gave a list of about 12 foods just actually the same he tells everyone to avoid. They’re generally unhealthy which you pretty much went through the list. Then he says, “Here are the good things you can eat. You need to take very high doses of all the fat soluble vitamins.” She had her gallbladder taken out in her 20s . “We need to help your body digest fat.” He gave her the rundown.

She’d already done years and years of research on her own and health stuff. It was under control and was managed but it was still there. About five years of doing his program because it’s something that takes time, she’s been totally 100% of remission for a few years. It took about four or five years but she saw that slowly the Ichthyosis crept away and new healthy skin grew where she had never seen healthy skin grow before. Now, the only thing she has is some dry skin in some places and that’s it. She still eats incredibly healthy, takes her supplements, takes her digestive enzymes and manages her stress– she definitely seen that that’s an issue, and exercises. At Morning and night she covers herself from head to toe in the things that she created in her home.

You would look at her hands and they look like everyone else’s hands. When I first met her it was not the case. It was very similar to what you described where she’d move her hands and they crack and bleed and fall like pieces of her would fall off. To see that transformation it took about four to five years of doing the the right program.

They say that every year you’ve had the problem, you need a month to work through the issues. She had the problem for 40 years, you got to give yourself 40 months. Anyway, it was like watching Ice Melt in the springtime. When you look at it every day, it doesn’t feel like it’s melting but eventually it melts away. The message I want to leave is that when we’re giving the body everything it needs, it does definitely feel miraculous at how it heals. It takes time. We need to be patient and stick to our program. If we’re getting no results at all or if it’s worsening, we need to work with a professional like you said work with you.

To make sure we are on the right path, we need to stick to it because the body takes time. Other naturopath say that the body does triage work. If you’re Vitamin C deficient, it’s going to take the vitamin C and put it to your heart, liver, kidneys and everything else that’s more important than skin first. Sometimes, taking in nutrients, nutrient dense foods and supplements, you’re eating healthy, you’re doing everything right and you might not see results for three months because the body’s healing internally. We also have to look at how we feel and the other parts that make up our quality of life to make sure we’re going in the right direction.

I’m very inspired by the work you’re doing and I really feel that you are on you’re calling, on your path. I’m really looking forward to hearing back from the listeners how much this has made a difference for them. I know that my listeners are going to jump over and listen to you on The Healthy Skin Show. There wouldn’t want to check out your website Everything you do is going to be in the show notes of today’s podcast

Tell us about your services, about everything so that listeners who want to connect with you know how they can.


[01:31:08] Jennifer Fugo:  Absolutely. The best way to get in touch with me is to go to From there if you’re interested in learning more about me, you can either read my about page to get a sense of what I’m about and it’s more than just my skin condition. When you are interested in working with someone; you should try to get to know who they are and what their values are. If that does resonate with you either get Help page where it describes how I work wit clients. I do one on one consultation. I also have some group programs that we’re working on but we also have some really great incredible resources as well for people to check out that you can utilize them in your own home.

If you’re looking for protein shakes that are really great for soothing skin conditions, we have a really great download for that or if you’re looking for the best tests to ask your doctor for, we’ve got resources for that. Looking at supporting you in any way shape humanly possible and if anybody has any questions, I’m happy Ashley, if you want to let me know or wherever the post is, I’m happy to come back and answer questions. I have blogs that are really extrapolate upon what we’ve talked about even further, just so that people have an opportunity to really dive deeper into these topics on the Healthy Skin Show. If anybody has specific questions, they can submit those questions to the podcast and actually get them answered on the show which is really cool. It’s just part of my commitment to make sure that people in this community feel heard and that they have ways not only to help themselves in their daily life but also to get that added support should they need it.

I have a virtual practice. While I live in the US, I see clients worldwide and I work with clients over the phone or by Skype to be able to support them.


[01:33:05] Ashley James: Excellent. We’re going to make sure that once this is up, I’m going to make a post in the Facebook group The Learn True Health Facebook group and so we can all jump in there and chat with you. We just started transcribing all of our interviews at so this interview is going to be fully transcribed so people can go back and see the full list of 18 things and counting of the different areas they need to focus on. Can see everything that you said today in the show notes because it’s all transcribed there and all the links to everything you do.

Listeners can come to the Facebook group and chat with Jennifer. Check out the first episode where we had Jennifer on which is Episode 198. I know on your website you also have a fun quiz that people can take?


[01:34:04] Jennifer Fugo:  Yes. Actually, it’s not a quiz, there are a couple of things you can do. As I was saying, you can find out what are triggers for your skin rashes and that you can do through testing. I’m a really big proponent of doing a low stomach acid test at home because as I said, having enough stomach acid is the second point of the digestive process and it’s critical. I find that a lot of my skin clients actually have low stomach acid. We’ve got a great download to walk you through how to do that. It doesn’t cost anything except for some water and some baking soda. It can really give you a lot of fast information in about 10 or 15 minutes. We’ve got a lot of great resources over on the website that will help you dive deeper.


[01:34:55] Ashley James: Very cool. Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Is there anything you would like to say to wrap up today’s interview?


[01:35:03] Jennifer Fugo:  I would just like to say that wherever you are right now and whatever you choose to do is entirely up to you. It’s okay if you choose to stay and do the conventional route of addressing your skin. It’s also okay if you choose to start integrating in some more natural or alternative options. Whatever you choose to do, don’t let anybody make you feel bad about it. It’s ultimately your choice. It’s based upon your health values. The goal is always to figure out a way to help your body rebuild healthier skin by rebalancing yourself from the inside and the outside. I hope that this is a really great jumping off point for some people and just know that it is possible to support your skin better. There are more resources out there and I hope that I can be a co-pilot with you on that journey and I just appreciate you for tuning in and also being a part of Ashley’s tribe because I know how passionate you all are about living your best lives. I’m appreciative for the invitation to be here.


[01:36:09] Ashley James: Wonderful. Thank you so much.

Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition? How we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity? Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier?

Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business, support people in their success? Do you love helping people? You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for integrative nutrition. I just spent the last year in their Health Coaching Certification Program. It really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over 100 dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition but from a standpoint of how we can help people to shift their life and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health. I definitely recommend you check them out. You can Google Institute for Integrative Nutrition or IIN and give them a call or you can go to and you can receive a free module of their training to check it out and see if it is something that you would be interested in. Be sure to mention my name Ashley James and the Learn True Health podcast because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program and I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information. We need more health coaches. In fact, Health Coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctor’s offices, you can work in hospitals, and you can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author, you can go into the school system and help your local schools shift their programs to help children be healthier. You can go into senior centers and and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success in their health goals. There are so many different available options for you when you become a Certified Health Coach. Check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition, mention my name, get the best deal, give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you.

Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes is starting at the end of the month. So, you’re going to want to call them now and check it out. And if you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.

Get Connected with Jennifer Fugo:

Official Website







Book by Jennifer Fugo:

The Savvy Gluten-Free Shopper Book



Jun 9, 2019


Lives Of Discovery



  • Cultures and cultural thought forms that causes stress.
  • The soul’s timeline and its relevance to your current life.
  • Guides and angels.
  • Happiness and joy, guilt, victimhood, and free will,
  • Listening to your body’s “whispers.”


Welcome to the Learn True Health Podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James James. This is Episode 359.


0:00:14.1 Ashley James: Well here we are again with Eric Thorton. We’re here live in his healing studio. Welcome back to the show.


0:00:21.6 Eric Thorton: Well thank you. It’s great to be here.


0:00:23.2 Ashley James: Yeah, we’ve had quite a lot of listeners giving me feedback on our last (few) interviews, all good information. They all love you. I haven’t gotten one complaint, so we’re having you back.


0:00:38.7 Eric Thorton: That’s great. What can I say?


0:00:43.0 Ashley James: And even several listeners have hired you and worked with you.


0:00:48.1 Eric Thorton: That’s correct. I think about 10, 15 now. Quite a few from all over the world. I’m working with someone in Singapore, someone from China, a lot from Canada, and from Eastern United States. So that’s pretty good.


0:01:13.8 Ashley James: That’s really neat. So for the listeners who haven’t listened to our past episodes, I definitely encourage them to go back and listen to our past interviews because they were enlightening, but I’ve gotten a lot of great feedback. A few listeners told me that listening to our interviews was life – changing for them. It helped them to understand parts of their lives and who they are in a whole new way and it really gave them clarity. So thank you.


0:01:42.8 Eric Thorton: That’s terrific. That’s why I’m here. I don’t do my work for any other reason except to help people and that’s why I love to share. I don’t try to keep exclusives on any of the processes we do and I look at everything, when we teach people something, we look at it as universal wisdom and we hold up their ability to look at themselves from their guide’s point of view. And so, any of the processes we talk about are (to) design(ed )to get people to think and incorporate the other things they’ve learned as well and it’s very inclusive to work. So it really seems to their past experiences been to people are very easily incorporated in to their lives and that’s one of our intents, is to take away the mystery of spiritual work and make it something we do everyday all over the world. (I) instead of just from information from the Middle East or India or something like that. God works the same day all over the world.


0:02:55.7 Ashley James: Instead of just doing it on Sunday.


0:02:57.8 Eric Thorton: Instead of just doing it on Sunday or with special words. Special words that are hard for people to understand take away the knowledge they need which makes it very difficult to become enlightened. It’s almost like you’re chasing someone else’s tail and they’re like, “Oh well you can’t quite know what this means.” And so, because really from my clients, and this is quite a broad statement I’m gonna make. They meditate, they do all these procedures and they really can’t own it because they’re told things that they don’t understand. And so, I’m giving information in sessions from people’s guides that explain what’s going on in their lives, how they’re sitting in their lives. How to stop comparing culture, what we were just talking about; cultures, thought forms, the cultural thought forms that keep us locked in patterns that don’t fit most over souls and so it causes stress in their lives. So we were talking earlier about happiness, intent versus enlightenment. And that’s a big deal on how the information, if the information is convoluted, how are you going to find that? How are you gonna understand who you are?

So with every person that comes in for a session, we’re always unveiling who they are so they can start to realize the difficulty they have is because of the culture that’s built around younger souls versus the culture that older souls have to be in. They don’t have a choice and it causes people to feel inadequate. It causes the older souls to feel inadequate and to be stressed. So our job, most of the people I see are older souls, in what we call the lives of discovery and they are very confused and stressed by what they’re supposed to be doing by the cultures versus what they need to be doing for them to uncover their happiness and joy.


0:05:23.1 Ashley James: You said lives of discovery. What does that mean?


0:05:26.5 Eric Thorton: The human existence is a series of lives. Life, death, reincarnation, becoming godlike. Well, bear with me with this demonstration. We’ll kind of explain that to you. If you take a timeline of the human soul on the planet earth, we call each life a form that we come in to a karmic cycle. Meaning that we’re here to learn and to grow in what it’s like to be in that body type and what it offers for the growth of the soul. So we start out maybe you take a timeline on the far left. You have what we call a new soul coming in to a physical body for the first time, so the soul doesn’t have physical experience yet and it comes in to a human body. Those people tend to be very radical and when you imprint some way of anything, whether it’s science, whether it’s religion, culture. You imprint it. The first imprint, they’re gonna defend that imprint until the day they die and they’re gonna be very radical about it. Those are quite young souls and they’ll live life after life after life with that gaining wisdom from those separate points of view. And then as you have more and more time, you gain more and more wisdom time embodies.

And about the middle point of this timeline, we call it the point of mastery. Everyone to the left, we call younger souls and that’s our main cultures. There are many cultures within that, religious, political, et cetera. And they come from people that are intelligent. They have emotions the same as (everybody else) [inaudible] does and they create all these cultures and then you hit this point of mastery and you’re there. You’re wise, you’re good, you’ve learned a lot but you still follow this cultures. So you have presidents, world leaders over there. They follow within these cultures. You have someone that people who might be familiar with is Mark, Margaret Thatcher, or George Patton, or Winston Churchill, or the leader of Brazil years ago – a very old soul but not quite an old soul yet. They still would be politically in the limelight and such. So they’re (still) supporting the old cultures.

You make this leap past the point of mastery, you’re leaping in to what we call the lives of discovery. These lives, if this change happens usually in the life between lives and sometimes it happens during a life and it’s earth-shaking. Because what happens is you understand all these cultures innately inside but, you can no longer quite do it. So to be the mean girl or the bully doesn’t work anymore, to go along with these clips (cliques) in school or in business cultures and things like that. It doesn’t quite work and you see the problem with it and how limiting these cultures are. In these lives you understand it but you don’t’ want to participate in these cultures, but you do because you wanna run with the rest of the kids or the rest of the adults and you feel guilty for it or bored or frustrated. So it’s like, “Come on guys, understand this.” So they’re going because you’re this old soul that is in the lives of discovery, they’re looking at you like, “What’s wrong with you?”, “Why don’t you do the 9 to 5 job?”, “Why don’t you do the 2.5 kids in minivan?”, “Why don’t you fall in to your position?”. Well after that point of mastery, you can’t anymore. It just doesn’t work and we continue living life after life gaining knowledge from that perspective now through discovery. And we are supposed to be discovering during these lives. We discover gifts during those lives – partial gifts, we never have them fully. We discussed that a little bit before, but the person will literally have sight or have a second knowing, really super vivid intuition or second sight but, it won’t be a full on. The use of acupuncture, reiki, all kinds of it because they conceal energy and experience it but the full picture is not there yet.

So you’ll live these lives. You can be a doctor and a nurse. They’re good people with good intent. We can even have some lawyers with it. They’re intelligent. They don’t quite fit in that factory worker thing. They’re not gonna do the same thing throughout life but, our cultures say do different.


0:10:57.8 Ashley James: So you’re saying they’re not gonna do the same things. What you mean is like, they don’t wanna work at one job for 40 years and then retire. Which is sort of what society says is good to do and or maybe the parents are saying, “Why don’t you just get a stable job and work there until you retire?” And there’s an expectation, a cultural expectation to do this and yet those who are in the lives of discovery will go from job to job or career to career or school to school and they can’t do anything for more than 3 or 5 or 7 years before feeling like they need to do something more, something different.


0:11:37.8 Eric Thorton: Exactly.


0:11:38.7 Ashley James: And sometimes they feel lost or they feel like they’re broken or there’s something wrong with them.


0:11:43.8 Eric Thorton: They feel there’s no life purpose because their life purposecomes from the main cultures and they don’t fit that life purpose. So they come to a guy like me or they seek other people. What’s my purpose in life? I’m not meant to dig ditches or I’m not meant to stand in the factory or to sell real estate probably it’s not fulfilling. For someone in these younger cultures, “Yeah, that’s great. I’ve arrived. I’m earning a million dollars a year. I’ve arrived.” Whereas someone that’s an old soul can earn a million dollars a year doesn’t mean anything to them because they haven’t found their purpose because their soul’s personality hasn’t come out yet, hasn’t been fully discovered. So they innately feel dissatisfied with the cultures they’d be.


0:12:34.8 Ashley James: So how do they then uncover their purpose and discover who they are?


0:12:39.4 Eric Thorton: The first step is to discover that their barking up the wrong tree. If they try to be in these cultures and get everything from these cultures, they’re not going to be happy. So that’s the first thing they have to look at like we did with you because well, you don’t fit.


0:13:04.0 Ashley James: We can’t see Eric. He’s pointing at my husband. My husband is now quietly waving at the microphone. You guys, they can’t see you.


0:13:13.8 Eric Thorton: Sorry.


0:13:15.3 Duffy James: I’m here.


0:13:19.1 Eric Thorton: Sometimes we just hold this up that they’re trying to put a square peg in a round hole and that’s the first step and it has to absorb, We remove the energy or the thought forms and predatory energies that have to do with trying to put a square peg in a round hole. have the frustration, the anger, the situation from mom and dad trying to get this kid to fit in and around a certain pathway and that all adds up in a person’s crown and it can eventually take on predatory energy like we explained. The more you get, the more likely you’re gonna draw too. You’re like a magnet. Well it happens. We remove that, we bring this up to the person and we’d look at it and we go, “Okay so, you’re a square peg in a round hole. So why don’t we hang around with square pegs instead of trying to identify with the round pegs?” So by doing this, you sit here and you start to look at it and we start giving you the individual reasons that are there. Like with you, we looked at some past life. By the way we do have permission from Duffy James to talk about him even if it’s in the third person. Sorry.

So we have to look at this and we have to go, “Okay why did you come to the parents you came to?” “What is it you’re supposed to be learning?” Oftentimes old souls come into parents that are younger souls but it’s not by happenstance. We choose to make this happen. So we’re gonna have a certain set of genetics at a certain time period being male, female, whatever it is so that we can learn from this set of genetics and this set of traumas that happen. When you’re raised by younger souls, they older soul is traumatized because they can’t be recognized. They can’t be heard. They can’t be embraced for who they are. Instead with younger souled parents, they try to fit this old soul into these virtues and choose that they can’t fit into and that equals stress. And apparently they parents sit there and scratch their head and they don’t know why this kid won’t do it. So that equals frustration and the kids try to compensate for it and they feel guilty, they pull it in they blame themselves. They feel guilty.

And this is one of the main things with people on the lives of discovery is removing this guilt from this child that’s still there so that in the current life, similar situations come up and they’re maybe being heard. But because a certain feeling or thought came up, they feel completely unheard by their spouse and it doesn’t have anything to do with your spouse. It has something to do with their past lives and the reason they came to the parents they did. So sometimes we’re answering the other side of the learning curve of karma. We look at karma like we explain that it’s a wonderful thing. It’s learning.

With some people we have a past life where we caused similar situations that they were raised in. So now they learned from it and so now it will come into that themselves and see if they can rise above it. So, what was your past life? What was that?


0:16:46.0 Duffy James: An industrial chemical worker.


0:16:49.1 Eric Thorton: Oh, that’s right. So unbeknownst to you, you were an industrial, was it a supervisor type thing? Something up in it and that you were in-charge of how things were produced like gears and motors and things like that which had a lot of chemicals in it and a lot of people got sick but nobody knew. So there’s no harm, no foul, it didn’t create karma but it did create a situation in your body. Now, was your grandparents something like that too?


0:17:29.8 Duffy James: My grandfather was a chemist.


0:17:32.1 Eric Thorton: Yeah, your grandfather was a chemist too which brought in a chemical predisposition to your body. And so between the two of these, your body doesn’t get rid of toxicity very well. So when we worked with you we worked from the backside releasing the reason you hold toxicity and heavy metals and things like that so that your body could start dumping them slowly. And we told you you would feel kind of odd for about 10 days to 2 weeks while your body dumps a lot of this stuff. I am sure enough today you’re telling me you don’t feel very well and you haven’t felt very well and it’s because you’re dumping toxins now because you release the reason your body wouldn’t let go of them.

Like we told you, you’re vegetarian and I said eat greens because chlorophyll pulls out toxins that are in your blood. It doesn’t pull it out of your tendons, that does pull it from your blood. The minerals in veggies and fruits help also pull out the other toxins. So it’s a great time to have a really clean life and of course, I don’t think we mentioned, but drinking plenty of water works too.


0:18:53.3 Ashley James: My husband gave me a knowing look because every 5 minutes I’m like,” Are you drinking your water?” So Duffy James had a session 2 days ago and he comes home and he’s like, “Eric warned me I’m gonna feel a little tired as my body’shealing.” And true enough Duffy James’s been totally wiped out more than any other healing more than acupuncture or massage or anything. He’s been pretty wiped out.


0:19:21.6 Duffy James: I have been, yeah.


0:19:24.8 Eric Thorton: You know I tell people when they have these effects, you know you expect to come away from a healing and feeling good, some people do. It’s actually a good side. You’re feeling bad, if they’re working on your toxicity. In the main cultures of the society, they want a cause and effect immediately and they want to control these things and you can’t get the body to release toxins that it’s emotionally hooked to. Nothing’s gonna release if you’re emotionally hooked to it. it simply will not happen. We mentioned it before, I have a client that’s grandfather had a heavy metal poisoning. her body wasn’t gonna release it because of grandpa’s love. Well, you had it from past life and we have to teach the body, “Okay we can do this.” Then it starts to happen and then other people works better.

So if you’re going to a Naturopath, the medicines from the Naturopath would work better because [inaudible] make you more toxic. Or from an allopathic, it would work better. If you’re detoxed at a great level, then the medicines gonna work right. Western medicine will even work better because you have a clearer past life. Or you mix some Western medicine or any chemicals with a bunch other chemicals, you’re gonna have a disastrous outcome. Or if you clean them up, you will have a good outcome. So that’s why we say the work isn’t inclusive because it makes everybody’s work work better. It makes your brain clearer so you can actually have a conversation. It’s a big deal.

So anyway in this process, I  literally set up the session. We talk for an hour to 2 hours and we talk during the session. This is very important for people to understand and you’ve experienced it now. We talk about it because it lights up the neural pathways in your brain much like brain surgery. The brain surgeon put you under, draw the holes in your head or however they’re gonna get in there, put you in the halo and then they will wake you up and they talk you through the surgery. So it lights up different neural pathways so they can see not to cut those and it’s the same way here. We’re not cutting anything of course but we talk about things and some people think, “Well we talk too much.” Well no, this is a different type of healing. It lights up the neural pathways specifically because we have millions of them and the guides go, “Okay there it is. Let’s give that better neural plasticity.”

In your session Duffy, the neural pathways were influenced by the past life and this life and so those get lit up so that they can change, give it better neural plasticity and then the process of changing the body starts with you in your case. And the brain goes, “Oh, ok can do this instead of this old pattern.” But if you don’t soften those up, that’s not gonna happen. They just keep going back to the default setting subconsciously and consciously. So that’s why we do a lot of talking during the process – to light those up, to get them to better neural plasticity, get them open to change. With you, we didn’t give you specific exercises to do, as of yet. But some people depending of who they are or what the situation is, we will give them specific things to do. Specific books to read, sometimes very specific diet for short periods of time or long periods of time. We talked about allergens, we also gave you specific to your guides – they will literally give me a spiritual exercise for that person to do and oftentimes it’s different from everybody else. There are some certain things we can all do like we’ve talked about the energy exchange but other than that, it’s more of an individual thing.


0:23:51.6 Ashley James: So you’re talking to your client’s guides. What’s the difference between guides and angels?


0:23:57.9 Eric Thorton: Angels are what we call non-evolutionary souls. They are angels. They are never going to embody. They are spiritual beings given a specific job with quite broad spectrum but still very specific. We are evolutionary souls. So we start our with very little knowledge, gaining knowledge with life after life after life after life and gaining new wisdom. Angels, they have specific jobs for eternity and they’re perfectly happy with that. They’re designed to do that. They learn within their job boundaries and if they need to go beyond their boundaries, they call another angel with the next set of knowledge. Where evolutionary souls go, “Oh, well let’s look at that” and gain the knowledge themselves. So it’s a very different perspective as well.

So we gain knowledge life after life after life and we’ll continue on this timeline we were talking about. So at the end of the lives of discovery we are born with the gifts on – that’s a master. Then there’s levels of mastery to where we become the ascending master. The ascending masters are amazing, they are good at everything. I’m not there yet. I was born with the gifts on, but I can see through a wall for example, but I can float through a wall. I still have a little fear about hard objects appearing in the middle of my body. So they’ve entered a point where they’re now proving all the things the things they’ve learned in all of their past lives. Clear back to when they first came in to the planet and if they came from another planet. Well anyway it’s called star traveler and you can draw in anyone of them as you’re used to work on.

So people who are amazing seekers, when I work on them – they’ll see a part of me shape shift into those past lives. So I will look like a slightly different person because I enter this meditative state when I work on anybody and they look at me like, “Who are you now?” and then “Okay, I’m from this past life.” Because I’m able to tap in to each past life at this point and some of them can even describe me and they’re accurate and I’m always not real tall. Come one I’m working on that. [Laughter] Come on 5 more inches please. [Laughter] But anyway, I’ve been on the planet for a long time and people didn’t used to be real tall and it seems to be locked in. I’m still the average height of a person 150 years ago. 5’6″ right?

I use a lot of humor. [Laughter]

Anyway, so we have these past lives to grow and learn and become this master and then we have the levels of mastery. As we become the ascending master, when we pass, we become a guide if we want to or we move on to another part of the universe. Buddhism calls that Nirvana. You’re not ceasing to exist, you’re ceasing to exist here on this place, you’ll go to another one and you’ll more. You don’t start as a newbie or as young soul anymore. You’re starting off as an old soul in any life form because universal wisdom applies everywhere.


0:28:00.2 Ashley James: So a guide is someone who has been through the whole cycle and now chooses to be a guide rather come into a physical body?


0:28:09.0 Eric Thorton: Correct.


0:28:09.8 Ashley James: Can a guide choose to have an incarnation in physical body or they are done with the physicality?


0:28:14.6 Eric Thorton: They can choose to do it again but they generally wants your guide, it’s a lot of time that passes by because you’re a guide with the same soul, it’s not the body. So you may be with someone in various bodies for 10 or 15 lives while they’re learning your specific expertise as the guide.


0:28:37.6 Ashley James: That sounds like fun.


0:28:37.9 Eric Thorton: It is and remember time only means something to the body. It doesn’t mean anything to the soul. So if you spend a thousand years with someone, it doesn’t mean anything. And so guides know us really, really well. Way better than we’ll ever know ourselves and it’s fascinating. They have wicked senses of humor too – not work it as in evil, but work it as in funny because they’ve been there and they have done that and they’ve been all the different choices we have with our bodies and preferences and things like that. They get it and they don’t care.


0:29:18.6 Ashley James: So you can hear guides and angels talk to you? How do you know the difference between the two?


0:29:25.0 Eric Thorton: Angels are very distinctive because they don’t have the same frequency because they’ve never been embodied. So it’s really easy for me to tell the difference. It’s kind of like meeting someone who is [inaudible] versus someone who’s Robin Williams. Not all guides are Robin Williams of course but it’s like, they’ll have that presence about them that just fits with you because they’ve done it. Where angels, they literally don’t give off that frequency at all. They have senses of humor, but they just aren’t that been there done that sense of humor. So it’s a very different frequency.

Now we all have what has been termed in some groups The Guardian Angel because their job is mainly to keep us alive. Where guides job is to help us with the stress of being an old soul. So I was explaining it to Duffy and I finally got to explain it. We’ve talked about the size of the radar dishes and the old souls have these giant radar dishes that taken a hundred thousand gigabytes of information for everyone than a younger soul takes it and it overwhelms the older soul, but those are the lessons.


0:30:51.7 Ashley James: You talked about how some people who are you calling sensitives or those who are older souls can become exhausted from doing things like going to a mall or going grocery shopping because they’re taking in all the energies from other people.


0:31:04.9 Eric Thorton: They are perceiving it and where someone else has no perception of it. So they get exhausted and they need to learn and be guided to people that can hopefully help them learn about this radar dish or these perspectives that have might the m very sensitive. They’re sensitive in the amount of knowledge coming in, but the stress of this massive knowledge has made their bodies very sensitive.


0:31:31.3 Ashley James: You say you work with a lot of healers. You like to heal healers. Help healers heal themselves so they can go on to be better healers for other people. Are all healers older souls that are more sensitive with the bigger radar dish because older souls are drawn to becoming healers or they have some of their gifts on or can younger souls also be healers?


0:31:58.3 Eric Thorton: Younger souls can be healers in a mechanical way. They can’t be healers in an intuitive way. Old souls have that ability to feel energy and that sensitivity that is supposed to happen that physiologically changes as we get damaged as the change that takes place. We have the classic wounded healer. So if you’re an old soul and you have this giant radar dish, it’s too much information for the body. The body is made to take the small radar dish. We have the exact same body says younger souls in other words. But we got this huge perception problem and that we take in so much information. We become very, very, very physically and mentally stressed and it wounds us and it starts at birth or even before birth. And it starts wounding and when we get wounded slowly or suddenly, we go into what’s called a hyper alert position and the amygdala, which is a gland above your both ears which joins at the frontal lobe, starts to work extremely fast. It already works extremely ast, it’s the gland that’s connected to the digestive brain, and you can look that up. The digestive brain uses the sense of touch only. The main brain uses the sense of touch, taste, sound – the 6 senses. The digestive brain is only touch. So if someone’s staring at you with malintent, you need to know. Essentially the amygdala was formed and the digestive was  formed for safety.

I was listening to Oprah at one time and what she said was the research on it, so I’m just quoting her, “That the amygdala can tell friend or foe in 30 millionth of a second.” When you get wounded and you go on hyper alert, that particular aspect can speed up to a hundred millionth of a second. And it is in that if you think of millionths of a second, it’s pure frequency. So if you can pick up frequency of friend or foe between 1 second and a 30 millionth of  a second and you have that turned on, now to pick it up to a hundred millionths of second? That’s where the gifts are – between 30 millionth to a hundred millionths of a second and even beyond that. That’s where you start picking up the frequency of sound that’s not in our physical word or in the 3D. You’re gonna pick up guides, you’re gonna pick up guardinals, you’re gonna see things moving around you. We all do, but you’re gonna see them more and you’re gonna start seeing figures or something to help somebody with, may be an argument with a parent or something when they were young when you’re working on their leg.

That information is there, but if your radar dish is picking it up at 30 millionths of a second, you won’t be able to see it as a therapist. But an old soul therapist, then you’re gonna pick that up and you’re gonna go to a totally different type of session. So again, we’re talking about stress and cultures.

So then you got someone we’ll say as a massage therapist and they’re working with someone that is a younger soul. What are they gonna do for that massage? Versus someone who’s an older soul that’s a massage therapist? What can be the difference in their techniques? The one from the old soul is gonna be much deeper because they can perceive what’s going on and move to the places without even being told.


0:35:55.2 Ashley James: So we have this amazing chiropractor and we totally love him and just as a side note and I got to tell about this mattress. But since we got our new bed 35 days ago, we actually haven’t needed to go back to our chiropractor.


0:36:12.0 Duffy James: Great bed.


0:36:13.2 Ashley James: I know. It’s so amazing. We used to go almost weekly. Sometimes twice a week because I’d wake up with injuries and I’m not that old. Why am I waking up with a neck injury, right, or a lower back? And he thinks like a mechanic. I mean he doesn’t follow intuition but he’s amazing and we love him. I mean if we could adopt him, we wanna keep him, we love him. He’s semi-retired right now so we’re a little bit sad about that. He’s gonna go into retirement soon, but he brought in a chiropractor to by his clinic and she is wonderful but doesn’t do his same techniques and we kept asking why isn’t she learning from you? You’re almost 40 years in the business, what’s goin on? He goes, “You know she has this intuition.” And I keep asking her, “Why did you adjust that? Why did you do this?” And she goes, “I just know to go there.” And he goes, “I don’t understand her process. She just have this intuition, I don’t have that.” And he respects it which is great, then he’s like going to a mechanic. He looks at your body and he goes, “Okay this muscle group is causing this but it’s coming from here and it’s this never bundle and this is why I’m gonna adjust this.” And he can explain everything and you might come in with neck pain and he’ll adjust your ankle and everything will come back into alignment because he thinks like a mechanic. So it’s that possibly, he’s a younger soul thinking more like a mechanic. It’s a great adjustment. The other chiropractor who’s taking over the clinic, pure intuition. She comes up and she just feels and knows where to adjust and she can explain why.


0:37:54.9 Eric Thorton: Well they might be old souls. One of them is taking the mechanics that all chiropractors learn and they learn themselves the order of it. Where in the chiropractic it’s just you learn this move one day, this move another day, and this move another day. You learn that someone’s need might affect their shoulder, but how do you assemble that as an individual and your practice? I’ll be honest, the guy who’s mechanical with it I can say is probably an older soul. He’s learned the technique. He’s taken this information and made his own technique with it and would tell that he works on people differently, individually.


0:38:37.6 Ashley James: He’s pretty amazing. I think you’re right.


0:38:40.2 Eric Thorton: He’s looking at series of sequences that he’s learned or intuited and he can plug that into this person, this person, and this person. Where the other one is more of an emotional thinker. So then she’s taking her own soul status and using it to really feel the manusia in the body and different parts of it that are connecting these mechanical sequences because she’s also moving the body mechanically. So it’s just 2 different approaches to this massive knowledge that they’re getting. So I wouldn’t say either one of them is a young soul, unless I met them, then I could tell you. The young soul can do that but they’re not gonna have the magic from it.


0:39:20.3 Ashley James: So I was a massage therapist in Canada and I was taking a course on craniosacral therapy and I had almost no experience with craniosacral other than I was told it was really cool to add to my tool belt.


0:39:37.6 Eric Thorton: And you have one of each.


0:39:40.2 Ashley James: I have a cranium and sacrum. Yes, yes.


0:39:43.9 Eric Thorton: So you have  experience with it.


0:39:44.4 Ashley James: I do. I physically have those. I was in the course and working on a woman doing that basically. They taught the technique. My hands are on her and I’m doing the technique and I’m seeing and it really shocked me. I thought craniosacral was just manipulation of the body. I had no idea that there was a spiritual component to it. Lo and behold.


0:40:13.3 Eric Thorton: Yeah. Everything you have to do with humans has a spiritual component to it.


0:40:16.6 Ashley James: Yes right. We’re learners now. And so I’m working on her and I can see trauma and abuse and what the abuse was and where it was still being held in her body. Sort of like I could see like in the CSI TV show how they put a blue light over someone and they can see old scars or old bruises. I could see them and I could see sort of which ones she’s worked on healing wise and so I felt compelled to talk to her about it but I also felt really weird like, “Hey by the way while I was working on you, I saw that you were molested.” And you know it’s sort of a weird conversation. So I brought it up with her and I said what I saw these 2 areas. One that you’ve worked on this area and described another area that was still very raw emotionally, because she was very experienced with craniosacral, so I guess she knew that this is something that happens. And she goes, “Oh yeah, you’re right. 30 years ago… such and such happened and I’ve worked on it and you’re right those are old wounds but I’ve done on healing.” It’s sort of like the scar tissues are left behind but I’ve done the work and she acknowledged that what I saw – the new wounds that hadn’t healed yet were emotional wounds that are still being held I think around the diaphragm area. That to me was amazing, when you can touch someone and actually get visions and see what’s going on in their body on an emotional level – the emotions are being held in injuries in the body.


0:41:56.3 Eric Thorton: Right. That’s why we heal healers. You have that ability and yet that was one of the first times you used it maybe. I don’t know.


0:42:06.6 Ashley James: Yeah.


0:42:07.0 Eric Thorton: And so, if you took that person with these traumas held in her body and you released it and she’s done with it, it’s out of her body. It’s done. If the practitioner releases it and they’re still learning to do it, it doesn’t go away. It will release it, the muscles will relax, you get some benefit from it and 2 weeks later it’s right back. That’s telling us there is a spiritual component to itself. So if that person that you’ve discovered that with still had the predatory energy from her attackers or molesters, if she still had the [inaudible 0:42:44.5], if she still had all these things going there, you would go to release the muscles then because you saw why they were tight but she maybe hasn’t finished learning from it yet. So then a guy like me would take that and we would go through and see who, what, where, and why?

What you’re supposed to be learning from coming to parents or people like this or having been involved in your life in some way and then we take that and we learn from it. We don’t look at anything as positive or negative even that. What are we supposed to be learning from it? Yeah, do I think it’s tragic? Oh heaven, yes. It’s one of the worst things that can happen to a human is being molested when you’re young because it changes your emotional status for the rest of your life. But that being said, if you turn it into a learning process, you can heal from it and we cannot just be a survivor, but become the person you’re supposed to become because of it and then you are healed, and then you will find your pathway. Then you will find your meaning in life.

In the meantime on a major thing like that, you won’t find it. It can stare you in the face and you’ll think it’s trauma. We call those cross wires. And someone associates love with being abused, manipulated, et cetera then out in the world, they’re gonna look at jobs, they’re gonna look at people for love equals abuse, manipulation, et cetera and so they’re never gonna find what they’re supposed to be doing. They can’t ever see it until this work is done. And then they’ll be out there doing something, it’s like a new sense of smell like, “Oh that looks good.” And they start to find their purpose or they start to discover they’re actually doing their purpose but they could never settle into it because of these contrasts of what love or friendship or work means that has to do with people that they can’t aligned with – the younger soul parents.


0:44:46.6 Ashley James: I like that you’ve mentioned in the past that, people who come too often have had health issues that they’ve seen everyone for and that it’s only when they do the spiritual and emotional work with you that it’s finally – it’s just that last sort of pin that needed to be pulled out.


0:45:06.9 Eric Thorton: To make everything work. To make all their efforts work. It’s so important to include everything people have done prior to seeing me. That is so absolutely important and it’s mechanically important as well as spiritually and physically. You can even literally have mechanical work done on you 5 years before you see me and it won’t take effect until the day we do the work. And then also they’ll go home and they’ll roll over and their whole back will realign, where it wouldn’t it. You’ve mentioned the chiropractors. They’d do it, they keep going in and going in and it won’t hold and they’ve done all of this work. I’m usually, unfortunately the last resort. [Laughter] It’s too bad, because when you’re the first resort you get things done a lot faster. You don’t have to suffer as long, but we’re stubborn. We don’t wanna go into something that’s the unknown or the mystery.


0:46:04.2 Ashley James: A question that come to mind that I wanted to ask you. This might be too generalized because I know each individual has their own reasoning. Tell us about autoimmune disease. Is there a common thread as to the cause and the common way to heal it or is it really individualistic?


0:46:27.1 Eric Thorton: It’s very individual. It’s very, very individual. Because like, we’re talking about Duffy here. His immune system are coming from past lives that he’s had and also his grandparents and what they did as individuals, those people did. That doesn’t apply to other people with autoimmune systems today. So I don’t have any precognition as far as, it’s not the right word, but I go into the session innocently. Because we have a certain amount of symptoms. I think we have 280 something symptoms and we have 10,000 or 15,000 different diseases and abnormalities and things like that the human body can have, but only 280 symptoms. So if you go in there thinking that these symptoms specifically means this, you have missed the boat. So I go at it very innocently so it always gives me the perspective from the guides that the person needs right now.

So with someone like you Duffy, this was a huge anchor for some of your issues. So we released the anchor. You still have the issues, but the body’s got to get used to not having that anchor, then we can start on the specifics. I tell people first sessions are very different than ongoing sessions because first sessions we gotta release the main bulk that you’re carrying around. The body got to learn to that we’re not gonna hurt it subconsciously and consciously and then it will let us in toward a much deeper level to where we get specifically you versus the effects of other people on you.  What’s actually happened to you specifically? Those come in generally, sometimes a little bit in the first session, but more in the ongoing sessions. And sometimes people just need 1 or 2 sessions or 3. Some people want ongoing. They want to really get their lives cleaned up but it’s like, “Okay so we dig in” and each time I might have to see people for years because this is what they’ve worked with. And they’re always get in to the next huge level and their bodies changed dramatically after each session. Very, very dramatically. They become completely different personalities because they’re becoming their soul’s personality instead of the injured personality. And that’s where things come up like enlightenment.


0:49:22.0 Duffy James: Didn’t you notice that my voice lowered, almost right away?


0:49:25.0 Ashley James: Yeah. That was something I wanted to say. So I wasn’t allowed to be in the room when Duffy James was getting his session. I was all ready to come sit in the corner and be a fly on the wall. When I picked him up after his session, he comes out and I noticed that his voice had dropped I don’t know how many octaves. I don’t know what an octave sounds like but his voice dropped noticeably. Not fake, it wasn’t forced but it was his real voice. I know when he’s in his in a state of stress, his voice becomes higher, I mean within the male range of voice but his voice becomes sort of stressed and higher pitched and I hadn’t heard that relaxed, deep voice for a long time. So I just noticed that that was a shift. I mean his energy shifted but his voice physically shifted.


0:50:18.8 Eric Thorton: Which shows the release of stress. Subconscious stress. When the body can acknowledge this, that’s when it knows we’re not gonna hurt it and then we start going in there. And we start getting these very specific cross wires. Most people want you to bring it up. They can go, “Oh yeah.” And they can look at it then and they can change it. So like if love equals being highly critical, for example. Love is cross wire with all kinds of things, it’s not always love but that’s a real common one. And so if love equals highly critical, then you’re on hyper alert to be critical because you love everybody and so you’re stressed. And if you can release that, but love equals because you breathe which is what we ultimately want, your stress levels drop down. But that’s a lot distance between love equals being critical and love equals because your present – I love your presence when you’re breathing. I have no judgement. Those are a long, long distance away and we have to go in and get the specific cross wires that come up with love equals being critical. And then all of a sudden their voice changes, their being changes, their tones change and they may be very intelligent but they’ve realized that, “Oh, just because I know something doesn’t mean I need to say it.” And so the critical part goes away. [Laughter]

You’ve recognized that one? You’re giggling. [Laughter]


0:51:57.3 Ashley James: Yeah, certain relatives of mine matched that. Can you remember that quote and we can read it back to certain relatives that shall not be named? [Laughter]


0:52:09.3 Eric Thorton: It’s better that way. [Laughter] But you know, when you can change that, then people’s perception of you completely changes too and you’ve changed complete frequencies. And so you don’t even wanna hang out sometimes with some of the people that were hanging with you because of the negative interaction. You changed to a more positive outcome, a more positive being, a more enlightened point of view and all of a sudden these people don’t wanna be around you anymore because they’re still stuck in the negative points of view.

So when people do this work, I also sometimes we have to say you’re gonna change enough now that friends aren’t gonna like you anymore – certain friends, because you’re no longer in alignment with them. You know people that have anger, hang out with people that are angry and so you’re not angry anymore and you’re gone. “I got this to do. sorry guys.” And so it changes who you hang out with too.

So these perspectives are what vary between happiness and enlightenment. Happiness is a joke, it’s a laugh. Enlightenment is joy and that you still have stress, you still have the human problems when you’re in enlightenment, but you move to the place of joyvery quickly. Instead of staying in this anger or frustration for years on and destroying families and things like that. So as you go through the process, our goal is enlightenment for people. Enlightenment being like we discussed on the last session. Enlightenment being a very simple definition – of being able to move through the problems in life instead of being stuck on them. So you have time left over just to exist and enjoy it and when you’re enjoying it, you feel joy. It just comes to you and every person, how they get there is different. And that’s why if somebody is a mechanical type, spiritual things don’t work because it’s the same practice for everybody. Just like aspirin, it affects everybody differently. So people got stuck in a practice and they’re stuck, they’re not enlightened.

So individually, we have to learn our own path to go into that place of joy and enlightenment and it’s a choice. All of it is a choice. We can choose to be happy but we have to make choices consciously with intent to become enlightened where you find that joy, even when in the middle of an argument.  We have to make those choices but like we talked about in the beginning of this, spirituality is so confused. The cultures are so confused – religious, spiritual, scientific et cetera and it just keeps people from actually getting there and you can apply that to many cultures. You apply it to the political realm, which we’re not gonna get in to today but in the politics world, those cultures, if you confused the people, you got control over. It’s the same thing spiritually. You confuse people and they can’t get there, so you’re controlling the enlightenment process.


0:55:42.7 Ashley James: You remind me of up until very recently in the Catholic church, I mean in history up until, I don’t know exactly 100 years ago, 200 years ago, 300 years ago, whatever it was, that the bible was not printed in English and most people didn’t know how to read. There was a considerable amount of people that didn’t know how to read and that it wasn’t written in English and so they trusted that the priest would give them the word of God which allowed – like it’s that disconnect that they were reading for the spirituality we get fed to them and it kept them confused enough, because if they couldn’t read it, they couldn’t memorize passages, they couldn’t be empowered by it.


0:56:31.8 Eric Thorton: Couldn’t call the church on the crap. If you don’t know what they’re saying, you can’t go. You can’t raise your hand and go. You’re taking that one a little too far. There’s a lot of humanity in that instead of just the word and then they build on the humanity.


0:56:50.6 Ashley James: Right.


0:56:51.5 Eric Thorton: And it becomes this big political trademark instead of from the original information. And it’s so very much on purpose.


0:57:01.6 Ashley James: In Quebec which is a province in Canada, the French saw that they were far outnumbered from the English. And so politically they told the churches to tell all the people that came that it was God’s will that they need to have very large families.


0:57:25.7 Eric Thorton: [Laughter] Big Catholic family huh?


0:57:28.2 Ashley James: Right. So still to this day in Canada it’s very typical to see a family of 12 children, if they’re in or from Quebec or Catholic and that it is all politics. Right?


0:57:44.4 Eric Thorton: Right.


0:57:44.9 Ashley James: But this is just an example of how politics uses religion in the past to control the population and that’s just an interesting example that because of that, Quebec was able to populate themselves very quickly enough to take over that region and it’s still in control of the region to this day.


0:58:07.4 Eric Thorton: We have this same thing here with these abortion sites. We have work shortage, we have a labor shortage of people that can do that type of thing and we can limit our growth to 1 or 2 children, so that population isn’t feeding itself. Population has to grow an economy to feed itself and so politically, they’ve politicized women’s birth rights so that they can control the population. They did the same thing in China. They have too many people. “You women, you get pregnant. You’re either gonna have an abortion because you only have 1 child. If you don’t, you gotta pay us 20 grand or 30 grand or whatever it is, the government.” And that’s how they control the population because their’s was too many. So it is, it is very politicized in these cultures and it’s confusing and it keeps the spiritual growth from happening.

How did we get into this? [Laughter] Do you want to get in that?


0:59:15.8 Ashley James: Either way.


0:59:16.3 Eric Thorton: The abortion stuff or the political things?


0:59:19.7 Ashley James: I was more thinking about going down the road of how to help people find clarity in their spirituality even though there is a cultural intent to keep them away from it.


0:59:33.0 Eric Thorton: Okay. So to finish up the abortion issue, if you think for a moment that God doesn’t know abortions happen or miscarriages, you’re crazy. There’s huge lessons from either one for both parents and those lessons are only good. Now, should abortion and my opinion be used for birth control? No. But there’s huge lessons and women that have had it and the men that I’ve provided have worked with them, they have enormous gifts come from these things and yet our political system takes that knowledge and confuses it and makes people very guilty for doing this and it stalls their walk. Because the cultures have made them feel so bad that they die with guilt instead of joy.

So there’s an extreme of everything that’s human. I’m human too, I get it. But there’s also a point to doing things correctly, in the right timing, and everything else. And if things are settled, then the couple or the woman alone can make a proper decision for themselves that they are at pace with and it’s done and they don’t have to carry this burden around their whole life that stops their spiritual growth.


1:01:09.6 Ashley James: I talked about this in a past episode but I worked with a woman which was back in 2005, 2006. It was right around New Year so I can’t remember whether it was in 2005 or 2006, right around there. And this woman had had chronic pain – massive. She was on Tylenol 3 everyday for years, I think for over 10 years she was on this pain medication and she was a long distance runner and the doctors kept saying to her, “It’s because you have arthritis from long distance running.” And I knew it wasn’t. I palpated her back, we did an 8-hour breakthrough session using NLP and timeline therapy and so I palpated her back and I felt her quadratus lumborum on one side – this is a square shaped muscle on the back, was cold and hard. Meaning there was no circulation there and then on the other side it was nice, malleable and warm. And I know that when we have unresolved emotions and we’re not facing them, our body will manifest in the muscles.

We actually squeeze the muscles so tight it creates pain so that we listen, so that we pay attention. And as we were working through it took a few hours of talking like you do in your sessions to finally come upon the secret she never told anyone that she had an abortion. She was Catholic and she felt incredibly guilty. I had her tell me the whole story and she went into the session and the nurse came to give her the pain medication before the abortion happened she said, “No, I’m not taking any pain medication.” And the nurse is concerned, the doctor came in and said, “There’s really uncomfortable. You’re gonna want to take it.” And she said, “I have to pay for this guilt in pain.” I nearly felt my tears, “Did you hear what you said?” I said, “You have been experiencing physical pain every day since your abortion because you’re still holding on to the guilt of it and she said, “No, no I paid for it that day.” I said, “Listen to your body. Where is your guilt right now and where is your pain?” And so she finally, like the light bulb went off and she realized that she was.

Everytime she felt guilt her back pain would flare up to 10 out of 10 and she’d take a pain med to numb it because she was stuffing down those emotions and so we did the emotional work and release the guilt. Her pain went to zero. I touched her back and the quadratus lumborum that had been previously hard and cold was red. It was like the circulation came back.


1:03:55.3 Eric Thorton: It’s the circulation coming back.


1:03:55.7 Ashley James: Yeah.


1:03:57.5 Eric Thorton: And that’s induced by culture.


1:04:00.4 Ashley James: The religious culture.


1:04:03.3 Eric Thorton: That’s induced by man saying what God thinks.


1:04:06.3 Ashley James: We’re not condoning. We’re not saying, “Yay! Everyone should go get abortion.”


1:04:11.8 Eric Thorton: No. No.


1:04:12.4 Ashley James: We wouldn’t wanna use it as a birth control.


1:04:19.2 Eric Thorton: It’s very hard for the female’s body, physically hard. If you have so many abortions, then you can’t carry children anymore.


1:04:26.7 Ashley James: There’s a heartbeat, it’s a human being that we’re killing.


1:04:33.0 Eric Thorton: Right, at some point. This is where our discovery hasn’t gotten there yet. A soul doesn’t necessarily hooked to the body at physical conception. There can be a heartbeat, there can be brain waves and that soul is still not hooked to that body and that’s not a viable egg yet. And there’s many things that happen that people don’t understand that has to do with karma, and souls, processes and things like that.


1:05:00.0 Ashley James: I think we have to go here now.


1:05:01.4 Eric Thorton: Okay. I’m gonna give an example. I know a lady, Catholic and in her 50s she got pregnant. Well the doctor said, “If you carry this, you’re going to die.” Because she was too old and she had too many children before and it just wasn’t gonna work and so she reluctantly had an abortion and she felt guilty of it for years and years and years. And she had children and grandchildren born and she found out that one of those grandchildren was in fact hooked to the fetus that she had aborted. Because this isn’t a waste. Souls wanna come into a family, genetics and if it doesn’t happen here, it’s gonna happen over here.

I have another client who’s she miscarried her stillborn and that child, that soul that was hooked and went to full term and there was something that went wrong. Horrible, awful, and I’m not just counting any of the pain and suffering. But her second child, she had another one and then the next one is the same soul that was hooked to the one that was still birth. So see, God knows what’s going on here, if you reason the word God. And it’s ok, but man in their ignorance sets up rules that become part of our culture that make it so people can’t grow spiritually. They have to stay as the follower, the sheep if you will, instead of becoming the shepherd. Because if they become the shepherd, they’ll look at governments and go, “Uh-uh honey.” [Laughter] And they vote for what’s right instead of the latest cultural trend.

And so the cultures like these points of control and they keep people in the lives of discovery from finding who they are and being able to help the rest of population towards enlightenment.


1:07:24.5 Ashley James: So let’s help those that are listening that are in their lives of discovery. Let’s help them to gain clarity so they can find their spiritual path clearly without having cultural intent blind them or muddy the water. So what advice or what tools, what kind of homework can you give those listening who want to gain more clarity and freedom around their spiritual path?


1:07:58.9 Eric Thorton: Well we all have our soul’s personality and our default personality which is the personality that’s formed in childhood and our current personality. The current personality is actually a combination of both – the soul’s personality or the soul’s history and the default personality. And so within each person, there’s a fight between the two, and old souls distinctly know it. So they go and they do this X,Y, and Z for a living or they get in these routines and habits wherever they are but something in them tells them it’s not enough, it’s not right, it’s not this and so – and our culture say, “No, you have to do this.” Well, pay attention to what something in you innately is going. This isn’t enough, this isn’t right. And then we throw in from our cultures the idea of success and what we’re supposed to be doing bringing success.

Success to an old soul is joy. It’s not cash. Yes, we have to have cash to live in the world but if you’re doing something that’s not at all going to bring joy in an old soul, or something if you’re in the lives of discovery, it will bring you joy for a while and then the old soul will need to move on, so it stops bringing you joy. Well, that’s a sign of your soul’s personality – to pay attention to these things and go okay instead of fighting it because the old the old culture says stick with it, go, “Oh okay, this is coming to a close now.” So I’m opening my eyes up. What’s gonna show up and have me naturally easily gravitate over there instead of me having a big eruption and, “Oh my god, I lost my job and all of the stuff.” Because you didn’t pay attention to when it was telling you, “Okay, I need to move on.” And then if you pay attention, you just naturally start opening your eyes up and you let the world manifest for you. If you get to the critical point where we discussed that you can’t stand it, you can’t recognize what the world is manifesting for you because you are too under the frustration.


1:10:21.7 Ashley James: That kind of sounds like being stuck in victimhood.


1:10:25.5 Eric Thorton: Oh yeah, that’s part of our culture. Victim is an award in our culture and in the largest percentage or our culture. And because then, that’s who you are, you become a victim. That’s what we’re taught we have to be and they keep changing the rules to keep us victims where old souls go, “Nope.” But we need to pay attention to it early on. If you’re an old soul and you have an obligation, like let’s say, you have a family, as an old soul you can go, “Okay, I know everything that’s gonna lead to something new and I can go get a job where I’m doing the mechanics to bring home a paycheck. And because I’m an old soul and relaxed, I can keep my eyes open from all the networking that’s gonna happen in this job that I manifested.”

If you keep going “I hate this job. I can’t stand it but I’m doing it to support my family”, you will never discover the networking that your guides will give you to find the next thing to do that’s in your pathway. But our cultures say, “Stick with it no matter what” and then you missed the boat.


1:11:42.5 Ashley James: That’s the golden handcuffs.


1:11:45.1 Eric Thorton: Totally, completely that.


1:11:47.4 Ashley James: This reminds me of a story my dad told me. My dad was the kind of person that had over 200 employees and he just would kind of fall in love with them and after they left, you know he wished then well and he’d like to stay in touch with them. He loved reaching out to people and help people with a really big heart and there’s one guy who had worked for him for a while called him up crying and freaking out. He wasn’t employed by my dad anymore and he said, “I don’t know what to do. We just lost our house. I’m sitting in our car. I got my kids and my wife and we’re homeless right now and I don’t know what to do.” My dad described him as being really stuck in that victim mentality unable to see, like you said unable to see the opportunities because he was so bought into the woes, “I can’t get a job. I can’t get a house, oh my gosh. We’re gonna be homeless.” He just kept focusing on the negative and not seeing the opportunity. And my dad said, “Didn’t you tell me you had an aunt in the other part of the province 4 or 5 hours way who wanted to come live with her and be her caretaker so that she didn’t have to go to an old folks home and she said that if you did this when she die, she’d leave you her house?” His friend had  forgotten this opportunity because he was so wrapped up in the victimhood, he couldn’t see something right in front of his face that when we’re in victim mentality, we can’t see opportunities.


1:13:34.5 Eric Thorton: That’s very true. Guides understand our anthropology. So if you take the limited information I have in psychology because I didn’t graduate with it. I didn’t graduate with a master’s. But it’s about what we call anthropological psychology. In anthropological psychology they look at the entire human being through anthropology instead of through cultures. The guides don’t care about cultures, they’ll point it out to you – what in the culture is upsetting your anthropology. So in anthropological psychology, they break down the human existence to very simple, non-complex features. So in anthropological psychology you have the family group, the friends group, and the trading group. And if anything in those 3 groups is upset, you become obsessed and causing you mental stress. Victim is going to either take away your trading group, your family group and or your friend group and if he gets all 3, he lost his house, friend group goes away, he’s got his family in a car – family group went away. And it started with the trading group. So that person had hit all 3 and your father found a way to bring him back to realize he was ok. He had someone to trade with – aunt. He had friends still – your dad was his friend to help him to keep his family safe. And all of a sudden you go, “Oh, my gosh.” And if you can keep any of those 3 upset, you can control the  entire person.

This is one thing they’ve learned with mass media. Last time we talked about energetic PTSD. Well, by keeping the political upset it keeps your trading group upset. It keeps it all in discourse and depending on your history, past life and current life is how much upset that is and then they can control the friends group and the family group. And that’s one of the big ways they’ve learned to control populations – is by messing with those 3 groups.


1:16:14.6 Ashley James: Yeah. You’ve brought up based on this interview and also in past ones about there’s a cultural meme that can control us, right? And so we as individuals would like to learn how to separate ourselves from the manipulation of the greater intent that’s trying to keep us unconscious?


1:16:44.7 Eric Thorton: In the work we do, when we find the soul’s personality and you start to recognize it in yourself, then you are automatically not affected nearly as much from these other groups that are trying to control cultures. So like with me, I do get a little upset because of our political situation because it’s throwing everything into an odd place that we’re not used to. I said if the current situation happened before Trump was elected, that was gonna be an interesting ride I didn’t say he wasn’t gonna be elected because there was a high chance he was gonna be elected and sure enough we are having an interesting ride. And it is a ride that we need unfortunately, because it has revealed a whole bunch of stuff in the under current that isn’t okay and we just were ignoring it.

And so, you can look at it from the perspective of the soul and what the planet is learning from it or you can come back down and be a victim to it. That’s up to you. That’s a choice.


1:17:57.0 Ashley James: So to come back to the abortion discussion, a woman can be a victim of the abortion and hold on to the guilt and be stuck possibly holding on to a physical illness. Holding on to the emotions like my example with my client, so in any situation where something negative, bad, harmful has happened to us in our past – and it could be a natural disaster, it doesn’t have to be someone doing to us or something that we chose to do ourselves, it could be something negative has happened. We can perceive it as negative and hold on to victimhood around it which not allowing us to learn, not allowing us to get to the [inaudible 1:18:48.3] not allowing us to heal our body.


1:18:51.9 Eric Thorton: It’s a cascade of effects and it’s not just one. So let’s say the emotion, if you feel guilty, it damages parts of your body. What it’s doing to the brain? Because the brain controls part of the body and that’s one. Put the muscle on that lady you’re talking about and it’s like, “Well why is the brain feeding that to the body?” What is it that’s there. So some of them maybe the Catholic yelt, but where has it caused problems all the way through their life that led up the need for the abortion? That’s what we have to get to – it’s what’s leading up to that? So that you have to have the abortion, you manifest, that’s a big deal. So that’s a manifestation and what are you learning from it? How are you going from it? Let’s remove the cultures and look at it for what it is and the benefits that you got or other family got. Maybe that the body that was aborted, the soul that might have been hooked to it is gonna go on to another family person or be yours again in a better situation.

Since we’re talking about that, sometimes people will feel the need the need for an abortion because it’s gonna be a defective fetus and they don’t know that but they feel a need to have an abortion. This isn’t the right timing because their guides are going, “Nope this isn’t right.” In other words, there are many reasons for things that our cultures overlook.


1:20:33.0 Ashley James: And again, I wanna say that we’re being neutral. We’re not being pro-choice or pro-life. We’re not taking a stance in this because I want both sides. People who subscribe to either side and I think like you said, as we become older souls we have a problem with staying in that one box that holding on to a radical being in one position, right? Because we see can see it from so many angles.


1:21:06.8 Eric Thorton: And there’s always tons of angles for everything and the cultures can’t incorporate all of those.


1:21:13.4 Ashley James: So we’re not being on either side, but we are saying for those women who’ve had that happen in the past that if they’re holding on to the guilt and not gaining the positive learnings like you said.


1:21:31.5 Eric Thorton: Exactly.


1:21:32.6 Ashley James: Because in any bad experience, whether it’s a tornado or an earthquake, it doesn’t have to be abortion, any negative experience to which we’re holding negative emotions, we can find positive learnings in order to let go, in order to learn or to grow, and in order to gain more spiritual health.


1:21:55.0 Eric Thorton: Well, just from someone going through a medical thing like an abortion or anything else, you gain a massive amount of compassion for it, if you’re not a victim to it. And then you can actually help someone else who’s going through something similar. If you’re a victim, you can’t. You’d try to help someone else, your victim energy is gonna come out and give them victim energy. Or if you come through it with no victim, then you can have that Godlike peer compassion that’s not judgmental.


1:22:28.2 Ashley James: Just like abortion is a very hot topic, miscarriages are very, very common and yet it is so painful to talk about. Women feel shame and guilt, they blame themselves, they feel like they’re broken or something’s wrong them.


1:22:48.6 Eric Thorton: Again, culture is victimizing those women.


1:22:54.8 Ashley James: What could you say to the women who’ve had those experiences in their past and maybe it’s still raw or still hurts or they’re still holding on to negative emotions? What could you say to help them to heal?


1:23:06.6 Eric Thorton: First of all if they didn’t have those emotions, why exist? The fact that they’re good people, they have emotions and you need to embrace that emotion without the guilt or the fear. That’s the very first step. It’s realizing how wonderful a person you are because you can feel that and then be with it. It’s like anyone died in the family, you don’t get over it, you have to place it. If you go into the cultures that have to do around a miscarriage or an abortion, you’re never going to find the value in the human being that you are that feels the things they feel because they are good, wonderful person. If someone has a miscarriage or an abortion and they feel nothing, what’s wrong? If they feel, that’s wonderful and they have to. And if they feel outside the culture, it can turn to compassion and love and turn to kind support for other women that are going through that and you can be an ear, you can be a therapist for them just in any given moment. If you truly embrace this good person that has these feelings, then you come to peace with it and then you can be used as a tool. If you’re in the victimhood, if you’re in the culture that keeps you from coming peace with it, it keeps you from learning them, then the guides cannot use you for your gift of compassion and love that you gain from these experiences. It never becomes that gift.

So that is the first and primary step. It’s seeing what a wonderful person you are for having that, for missing the opportunity of this fetus. And the reason we feel so guilty is because we don’t know that that fetus is probably gonna be born at some time down the line or that soul is still gonna come to you. But the soul is gonna come in an another fetus, that one more suited to that soul. Miscarriages and like I said earlier, abortions can be the impetus because it’s not at an effective body for what that sould needs and it knows it will come in to give like this lady I talked to you about that was in her 50s. She had great learning from it. And when she learned that she didn’t kill anybody, it will bring their life up to help others. That fetus wasn’t meant to come to [1:26:02.8 inaudible] it was meant to teach her that this isn’t a horrible thing. It took a number of years after the fetus for this to be revealed that it was her grandchild but it was like this is what was supposed to happen. It was a lesson in all of this then she realized, “Oh my gosh.” The church doesn’t actually know everything.


1:26:27.8 Ashley James: So is there free will? I mean could she have said no and move forward and had that child and this soul come in to, you know.


1:26:39.1 Eric Thorton: Of course and she might become very naive from it or died and those are valuable lessons as well.


1:26:45.7 Ashley James: So there’s freewill at each step in the road, there are valuable lessons from our choices.


1:26:51.6 Eric Thorton: I look at it this way, this is what I’ve been taught. We have certain things we’re going to do. Certain major blocks in your life much like in astrology, the major tangents. We’re gonna do them, there’s no choice and so everything’s gonna lead to these moments. But the guides will use anything that comes up along the way to teach you. So if you make a choice, you have 2 choices like with that lady – either have an abortion and possibly remain healthy for the rest of her life or not and possibly dying and how it might affect is she lived and things like that. She’s making a choice. The fact that the choice is there is what would be part of the Akashic record, karma, whatever words you might wanna use. Which choice she makes, then the guides will use that. The one that was supposed to which was the abortion and the other was, well, you have it you’re gonna be sick and on and on or die and then the child’s gonna be raised in these set of circumstances and probably if she would have had it, maybe that same son  that that fetus was going to be born to would be raising that child from that point on.

We don’t know these things and when we try to legislate them, it doesn’t work. We mess it up. That’s why it’s not the fight for abortions, it’s the fight for women’s rights because that’s the fight. You can have the choice to have the lessons from the choice versus having it governed. Since we’re on the subject, that’s what our forefathers put into our constitution – was the choices so that things could work out. Not according to a tyrannical government but according to freedom of choice. It makes them confusing, it makes it all muffled up. It’s not clean, and nice and defined, but it still keeps free choice. So we have our lessons not something to dictated by somebody else because the lessons are much sweeter when they come from ourselves. When we can get in that soul’s personality, it’s amazing what you can do. The most tragic things can become the sweetest things that ever worked.

And just because the child might be born into another body – the soul, it doesn’t mean you still won’t mourn the one that disappeared for whatever reason. It was because you’re a good person. Again back to that. That’s a wonderful  gift but they take it away with our culture so it keeps us from the enlightenment, from finding the joy. So it’s a sad state of affairs for this occurred in my book, “The Removing of Freedom” our personal choices. Again, we had to look at that and that’s why the current administration is in about what was happening underneath, it’s that we’re slowly taken away our freedom from both sides and we had to look at that and establish the things be well established of the next 10 or 15 years. A whole new way of existing in our country and it’s gonna be with free rights. It will be with  women’s rights because we’ve realized that all rights – we’ve realized that this in the background is being eroded, taken away. And now everyone’s going, “Oh heck. We don’t know what we’re doing ye but something is really wrong and we’re gonna change it.” And so it’s gonna be changed. That’s why I said it’s gonna be interesting. [Laughter] And it continues that way.


1:31:01.2 Ashley James: What can we do to open our perception to hear advice from our guides?


1:31:11.2 Eric Thorton: It’s that timeline, first of all. Everyone has things they can learn in each life. So by remaining in free will, by remaining and valuing who we are, we become a better tool for where our gifts are currently in our current life. So let’s say we have people in the lives of discovery, these are the people I see most and they have what in some circles, we call it totem. The totem is a symbolic gesture that talks about maybe you have these different animals on the totem or an object on the totem and it’s telling you that these gifts are available in this life. They’ve already done it in past life, they’ve earned it and they are available. When we’re caught in our cultures, the negative cultures we’ve developed, you can’t use the gifts well. When we come to the place of no judgement, that’s the place of joy. When you look at things from that moderate point of view you can find the full value, then can those totem animals come to you because you’re not caught in your pain and suffering. You’re in joy and then you can look at things through those gifts from a neutral place.

If you’re caught in pain and suffering, that is going to influence what we call the cognitive biases. So for example I worked with a lady, I’ll just use her first name Lara for a couple for years side by side in tandem with clients, but only the female clients. She could not work with the male clients. Now she was a master but very injured and she works through it. So she saw everything in the male clients as something – because men have testosterone, so she saw testosterone as a very, very negative thing even though she had it to. So the male libido and the male imagination is governed by testosterone supposedly when you’re young. And so men’s psyche goes all over the place. You know they talk about boys and school about every 2 seconds, they gotta think about testosterone related things and she would see that in the man’s energy filed and feel threatened by it. So these aspects of her totem could come out but a whole bunch more couldn’t because of her own fears.

Well if we’re asking to use our gifts, how can we do that coming from a negative victim place? Can’t do it. You put cognitive bias to everything the guides say instead of being neutral.


1:34:24.6 Ashley James: That reminds me in Huna which is the spirituality that comes from ancient Polynesian and Hawaii. They have this image of 3 points – the higher self, the conscious mind, and the unconscious mind and it’s like a vesica piscis where each one has a circle. So where the heart is the unconscious mind in this drawing and the one in the middle is the conscious mind and then one up above the head is the higher self where the information from guides would come from. And in this drawing in ancient Hawaii they would say that the information comes from the higher self into the unconscious and then the unconscious then gives it to the conscious. So kind of like eyesight of hearing, it is – all information to our 5 senses is filtered first through our unconscious mind and through the reticular activating system of the brain before it is filtered highly.

We think we’re always aware of everything that our senses have, but we’re not. Like you’re not aware of the feeling of your feet in your sandals or your shoes until I mention it because your brain deleted that information because it wasn’t relevant to right now. So our brains our always deleting or distorting information that’s coming in to our 5 senses or unconscious brain, right? And what we don’t think about often but what they illustrated in Huna is that the unconscious bias that filters the unconscious mind also filter the spiritual information coming through our intuition or our guides. And so if we have negative beliefs, our guides could be giving us really great information but because it’s coming through the filter of our unconscious first, that it can be distorted. So I think that’s what you’re describing.


1:36:36.9 Eric Thorton: Exactly. It’s very powerful. It has to do with your intent. So you sit here and if you are in fear on a subject matter, you cannot be clear about it. That’s why people masters are all moderates. Yes I have my biases, I can’t help it because I’m living a human existence. That’s why the work is inclusive because I can’t be used for everything. I have biases. I was born in the United States – that’s a bias compared to being born in South Africa. And so it truly takes a village because of those very biases. It’s like I can see the future through my biases, but you can’t be predicting the future like Nostradamus by himself. You have to predict the future, people that can all do this come together in a group to get the full perspective around one subject. So someone may be over it at 10 degree perspective, some may be at 30 degrees, someone at 36 degree, et cetera looking at the same subject matter and then you get a full picture. Instead of like Nostradamus, the pictures were very vague and you could apply it to many things. Yes he was good, no question about that but it wasn’t a full picture so we don’t know what he meant. Now if you’re working with clients everyday, you can’t go into the don’t know what you meant by your own cognitive biases. So it limits your healing ability to be used as a healer.

Now if you take the human subject as well just our who we are as humans, we’re not satisfied with who we are for various reasons, injuries usually. We always want to be somebody else. So there’s many healers we call wannabe because they want to be a healer because they grande sized that he’s being someone important. Where are true healer, true master feel none of that. They literally feel like the most normal person on the planet. Or people who want to be and they seek out, much like becoming a doctor. They seek out these spiritual things, it’s because we are spiritual beings we’re curious about it. But a lot of times, I’m sure you’ve seen it, is it’s the impetus for injury. And if that’s the impetus, that limits extremely what your guides can use you for.


1:39:23.1Ashley James: Until you heal that injury.


1:39:24.6 Eric Thorton: Until you heal that injury then it expands automatically. I have many clients who have gone on to become spiritual powerhouses that you’ve heard of in our area and around the world because we’ve cleared up all these other stuff through their processes here and other people they’ve gone to and all of a sudden their past doesn’t matter. There’s a very well-known hypnotist and an animal talk person around in the areas and I’ve worked with them both before they even started the businesses up. They couldn’t figure out what to do. They had these little gifts but it wouldn’t come together and we found out who, what, when, were, and why and all of a sudden it starts manifesting for them. But without that healing maybe the animal talk person couldn’t look through the innocent, it only looked through the injury and the fact that she loved animals and only animals because she couldn’t trust humans. Then you’re hearing from the animals all the negative things about humans and that’s not useful to a guide. So she gets through the injury and all of a sudden she takes that same gift and can now expand it because you’re coming through perspective. And she finds out all these wonderful things about animals now. She travels all over the world and we just solidified it for her.

Same with the hypnotist, she travels all over the world now doing things with people all over the world. She’s amazing now. I get her newsletters and all that other stuff and it’s someone you know. [Laughter] And I just solidified it for her. So I look at that and go, I was a little bitty part of her healing group that allowed her – and I don’t take credit for it. It’s just my little part to guide her to be able to go whack – there it is, her guides can then use her. And I know my part was just a little one but it’s part of her village and I’d love to know the rest of the parts of her village. [Laughter] Because it’s amazing what she’s able to do.

So that’s how you start using those gifts with totem. Then once you’re using them all or a large portion of them, then you have demonstrated your spiritual growth and then new gifts start showing up. All of a sudden the clarity becomes solid or  all of a sudden you’re able to work with people that you’ve never ever dreamed of working with. A whole different direction to your human practice because you have gotten your psychology – has become healthy. So it’s one step ahead of your gifts. If your psychology is behind you gifts, you’re doing it out of ego. And we talked about that earlier, that’s called a sorcerer or a sorceress. You’re working out of ego and they have the same gifts as a healer. The healer probably has been a sorcerer at one time because they’ve learned that using things and doing things out of ego and desire can make you very vulnerable and go into areas of ego and desire.

It’s very real. I’ve worked on a number of people – with local and distant sorcerers that are very serious. One time I’ve got into someone’s energy and literally my legs were not under me. I could not stand as if my legs were gone and I collapsed to the floor and the person on the table jumped up, “Oh my god, are you okay?” “Yeah, I am. I just learned something.” [Laughter] And sorcerers are the same as a healer, they’re just using it as an ego. I mean I could technically do all those same things but I would never do it. I’ve entered mastery so that can’t happen. Do I make mistakes? Oh, sure. But I don’t do my work from a place of ego. I have to reckon with that as far as doing public work too. Just being on a radio show, is it coming from a place of ego or coming from a place of healer? And I had to think about it and work with it various times throughout my career.


1:44:00.3 Ashley James: But just the fact that you’re asking yourself, I mean someone who comes from ego doesn’t sit there to contemplate. Is this really coming from ego or this is you know?


1:44:09.5 Eric Thorton: They don’t and that’s what I had to reckon with because just getting to talking on your blog here, it could be an egoic thing or it could be a thing for healing and supporting other people. And that’s where I have to learn to keep it there, if at all possible. Do I have opinions? Yes and it was like any other human. Do some of them stink? Oh you betcha. But the intent is to not create karma and just to remain integrity. And I have never sought any of this, it’s just there. So yeah, I want people to understand what I’m talking here.

When people are egoically seeking to their healing that is also a good thing, it’s just not mastery. When you seek to become a Reiki master, you are literally redefining by going to the process of how you feel energy and it’s bringing it to you so that in the future lives, you can use that. So these processes are very important of ego seeking and trying to be a healer because you wanna be – it’s an important part of it. Because you’re discovering the various ways that God reveals itself to the world. It’s just not a neutral thing that the master has. It’s an ego driven thing. So in the lives of discovery, you maybe want to learn Reiki, you maybe wanna learn herbology, you want to do this and you have to apply it to make a living. So I’m not finding any fault with any of that. It’s just not a master yet or you come in having access to all that information in a neutral way.

Great masters all have agreement set up that they do not create karma at all cost and how do you negotiate that is what the individual has to figure out because that’s part of the lesson. So how I negotiate doing public work is an important lesson for me in how to so that. The ascending masters are amazing at it. They’re great in the public, they’re great in everything. They’re just good at everything. They remain in that neutral spot. I’m learning that. I’m not there yet so I’ve had to find it within myself. And without wanting to do that, I would never have the experience of try it and finding those places. So I never preprove these things, when they take that and say that’s it and that’s end all for everything? That’s when I find a problem because that’s very high ego. So like Reiki, it’s not the end all. You can’t do everything being a chiropractor. You can’t fix everything. You being an herb person or a Naturopath, you can’t fix everything. And if so your ego drive to do that, and the ones I like are the ones that are open, they’re amazing people. And the ones that are closed with it, they’re not amazing. They still do good work, but they’re not amazing.

So perspective and intent is everything and we have to have intent. And so with my guides I have set up situations with them and no matter what, I don’t want to create karma and they literally cut me off, if I start to do that. Sometimes I have to do that in my life. I have to have my lessons too but they let those ones go buy. But the ones that I can screw up, they stop me from doing it so I don’t create more karma.


1:48:20.4 Ashley James: So as our gifts come into fruition, our  guides can help us.


1:48:26.5 Eric Thorton: Very much so.


1:48:27.5 Ashley James: And we can ask our guides to also help us not use our gift to disrupt karma or to create karma.


1:48:37.0 Eric Thorton: Right. Damage on a spiritual level. Because remember the bodies, they’re wanting to play a lot but they are vessels for it. We’re grateful for them, we need to love them. we need to respect them, we need to give them hugs, we need to say I’m sorry. Because of you spiritual pathway it causes strain to the body. We need to do all those things, they have to be very, very valuable and held very tightly but they are secondary compared to soul’s pathway. And there’s a convoluted pattern that takes place. You might say a series of venn diagrams where the cultural laws and the spiritual laws crossover and one creates spiritual growth and the other creates physical growth in these common areas. So spiritual pathways create human evolution. Human evolution in the form of all these laws and cultures create the incidences for spiritual growth. If it was legal to kill people, there would be no lessons if you are involved in a killing of another human being.

So we have to have those cultural laws to provide the spiritual growth. When you start giving the extremes, it’s out of balance and that’s in all directions. That’s why healers or masters will always be in that neutral plays. Always, when they’re working with people.


1:50:16.0 Ashley James: Yeah an idea came to mind when we’re talking about needing to maintain women’s rights and free will to choose to have an abortion or not. The idea came to my mind, what about laws like DUI or murder, why should we have laws to prevent us from doing other things that would take away a free will? So when one choose to drink and drive or choose to murder someone, those laws are imposing free will right? Just like abortion, to take it away would be kind of like taking away the free will. But what you’re saying is that we need some laws and balance – we need balance. I’m talking very extremes here. We need the balance and the laws in order for us to create circumstances to learn from.


1:51:16.2 Eric Thorton: Correct. So like someone you mentioned, drunk driver. Well, we think it’s wrong and it is. It’s really wrong for the human body and I won’t go there period. It’s wrong. But is that drunk driver creating karma or is he playing a part in the drama in the karma that a van full of people half of them dying from an accident from the drunk driver hitting them or getting in the way? We say the drunk driver needs to be punished and it’s all karmic or sin and this is that and the other. Well maybe they’re playing a part that says, I have to hit this car so this many people die so that karma between them takes place and you’re just a role. So then the person does have to be punished because he’s driving drunk and because not every drunk driver is fulfilling the karmic role. And we also have to love the drunk driver because he may be playing a role that is fulfilling someone else’s karma or it sets up in motion his or her karma.


1:52:34.2 Ashley James: And the circumstances allow these people to learn from to gain spiritual growth.


1:52:41.0 Eric Thorton: Right. The circumstances are the laws that say no and then it puts a punch into the growth. It shoves it over the edge. And if so you’re a drunk driver, you will go to jail. You feel guilty maybe you killed 10 or 15 people on a bus or something like that but it was something you had to do but you feel so guilty about it because of our cultures that you go to jail and you learn all sorts of new things. And you feel guilty so you’re interested in learning, maybe you get some psychotherapy, maybe you’ll find Jesus or Mohammad or something in jail and you learn a whole different new way of existing. It would never have happened if you didn’t drive drunk and kill a bunch of people.


1:53:27.9 Ashley James: I know 2 people, fortunately didn’t kill anyone but I know 2 people who had DUIs who – that was the event that had them completely changed their life.


1:53:41.6 Eric Thorton: Exactly. Without the laws it would never have listed them into that. And then if you expand the picture, if they didn’t have that event, it would have to amp up to get them to change and grow and their life. Then it may have been far more tragic.


1:54:01.0 Ashley James: This sounds a lot like in naturopathic medicine. We’ve had many naturopaths on the show even from day 1. The first episode of this show over 3 years ago, when we talk about physical health, the body speaks to us in symptoms and the symptoms start off as whisper. So maybe you have a little shoulder tension or a little tiny headache. Like really small, easy, manageable symptoms – the body is whispering. And if we ignore it or we self medicate, we take Tylenol or Advil or we drink coffee or whatever we do, over the counter or prescription wise, we look to self medicate, we look to push down the symptoms. We’re not listening to the body or we don’t realize that the body has this language is trying to communicate something. The more we not listen to the symptoms and keep going, the symptoms get stronger and stronger and stronger and also we’re gonna get hit by the cosmic 2 by 4 and that’s the body yelling at us. So if we can catch ourselves when the symptoms are small, correct something really soon. Like you catch something in pre-diabetes, type 2 diabetes is easy to correct anyway but by the time you are full blown diabetic, you’ve done damage to your eyesight, your circulation, to your heart, you may not realize it. So it’s best to catch something when you notice a few weird symptoms like,  “I’m waking up in the middle of the night to pee.” Or, “Why am I angry and kind of hungry 45 minutes after eating?” Or, “Why am I really sleepy in the afternoon?”

You catch those symptoms early on, you can correct it. And what you’re describing is like spiritual symptoms that if we don’t learn and we ignore, it’s kind of like the lesson comes harder and harder and harder until we do.


1:55:48.3 Eric Thorton: it completely amplifies. We do that, we talked about magnets in one of the previous talks where each incident around the wound, you main wound is your main magnet stuck to your belly and each incident is another magnet. And we will keep getting magnets until we get a huge pile of magnets that forces us to our homework or we can look at it when we start collecting the magnets. And they’re designed to get us to search, search for growth, search for wisdom, search for God.  It’s a perfect system, if you’re stubborn, you’re gonna get a lot more magnets. You’re gonna get a lot bigger and bigger drama and that’s not  enlightened. Enlightened is looking at each high and low of the day and go, “Okay what am I learning from that?”

Sometimes it takes a day or 2 or 3 to do that but not a year or 2 or 10 or 15. And when you get this huge pile, if you have a pile of magnets and you kept adding to it, pretty soon you’re looking at apile of magnets. And if someone says boo to you, you look through the magnets and why the hell did you say boo to me? Instead of interesting.

So yes, very much so. We’re designed to amped up in everything until we finally tell whatever happens that it’s necessary. That goes back to the guides will use whatever happens to bring you to your lesson. And it’s not all planned. The major things are planned, but the rest of them which can become major are not planned.


1:57:42.4 Ashley James: What kind of introspection or what kind of questions can we ask ourselves in order to gain the positive learnings?


1:57:51.3 Eric Thorton: “What is it that’s giving me question?” So when a person’s stuck for example, why? Let’s say you want to break up with break up with someone you’ve been living with and or someone you have a romantic relationship with, you just want to break up when you think it’s over. You know, “We’re not married so it’s an easy thing to do” for example. And you’re stuck, you don’t know whether to stay with him or not stay with him. Well, if there wasn’t a problem, I mean you weren’t afraid of being a victim and you weren’t afraid of all the cultural things of being alone and all these different things. The fact that you’re having a fight in you, is in fact your old soul going, “This person isn’t for you.” But the self, the one that wants to be with someone because of culture, security, money, whatever it is, it’s going, “No. No. No.” Well if your soul guides guides weren’t telling you, you wouldn’t have the controversy in you. So if you got the controversy in you and you have the thing tearing you apart, it’s tearing the default personality from the soul’s personality. You’d better pay attention because the soul’s not gonna tell you to break up with someone, if it’s meant to be. It will have you keep working through the problems that develop 2 people being together naturally are there. If the guides are telling you no, well don’t pay attention to it.

We don’t pay attention. If you’re in the lives of discovery, our guides are constantly telling us what’s going on by those knowings. But again, our cultures keep us stuck – being alone, being whatever it is. It keeps us totally stuck in every way. So listen to the truth no matter how painful it is. If you listen to it in the beginning, it is easy to work your way through it. If you pull in the cultures of “no I must do it this way”, then it amps up and it becomes a very difficult thing to do. So, listen. That’s how i told my kids the same thing. If it’s just not there, listen to it. And if it is there, it will work out. So that’s where we fight it.


2:00:37.8 Ashley James: Thank you so much. My last question, I think I asked this last time, but I really like this question. Is there a message that – because all the people who are now listening, in the future because there’s no time to guides and angels. All the people are listening, their guides know that they’re listening. Do any of them have a message that wants to come through or is there a message for all the listeners or a message for some of the listeners, is there anything that they would like come through that’s important?


2:01:10.7 Eric Thorton: Well we talked about what to do today. The guides are big on this, we wrote the newsletter I’m recalling it.


2:01:19.4: Ashley James: Happiness is a choice. Enlightenment is deeper.


2:01:23.4 Eric Thorton: Happiness is a choice. You can go to a party, you can go to whatever but it is the intent that we have to have to go deeper to find who we are. We have to have the intent of not listening to cultures but listening to our souls knowledge that is coming through at all times. And it’s very deep and it will keep you moving on in life. In the lives of discovery, that’s the only way we’re gonna be happy. So it’s like in you, if you’re supposed to do the radio show for the next 40 years, it will keep coming and there will be new things to keep you growing. If you’re not supposed to, you’ll find things that becomes redundant and you keep trying but the world won’t won’t be manifesting for you if that were the case. And you have to look at the writing on the wall. Okay what is it then? That if you do it early, you could either adjust your media access or change it, whatever it needs to be done and it’s easy.

if you realize and you keep hanging on and trying and struggling, it’s gonna become very difficult when the world slaps you in the face versus evolution. Guides will always, and this is something that the new age I don’t think acknowledges real well. They will turn anything into development. So nothing is right or wrong and there’s that takeaway today is to get to that place of the soul’s personality where it looks at everything. It’s not or right or wrong but as in what we’re learning from it so that we can, yes choose to be happy but we can also choose to evolve with intent and then you have joy and then happiness becomes important but takes a secondary role. Because it is the joy that’s 24/7.

So that’s maybe a message for your clients today. It’s learning to look at that intuition early on so the guides can help you.


2:03:44.1 Ashley James: Yeah. Listen to the whispers instead of waiting for it. If there’s a bunch of drama happening in your life, it’s possible that you haven’t been listening to the whispers.


2:03:54.8 Eric Thorton: Just slightly possible, like huge. [Laughter]

I mean sometimes drama is part of our karma. Sometimes it’s part of raising kids, it’s part of your process. If you don’t have the drama, you’re not being a good parent, so you’d actually create karma. But where we take it like with the kids, if we take them, we resent our kids for creating drama, you’re not in enlightenment, you’re not there. If you think, “Okay this is the moment. This is the teaching moment.” And 5 seconds later, you’re in the next thing. I found it really fascinating with my kids because I’m not perfect but I have an interesting point of view in life. I would be sitting there having to have to discipline my boys or 1 of them and the others would come up to me and, “Are you done yet?” Right in the middle of it because they know I don’t pull from one into another.

I can literally be disciplining and teaching this kid how to live in the world as best I can demonstrate to him and not be really happy and the next I can, “Oh so you wanted to play baseball? Okay good.” Because I’m not carrying it.


2:05:16.8 Ashley James: You’re not spilling anger at all of your kids because you’re disciplining onw of them.


2:05:21.1 Eric Thorton: Right. I’m just disciplining one of them. Teaching them how to get along in the world from a perspective which teaches them to take in more perspectives and learn their own space. And if you don’t, then your kid isn’t gonna learn to so that. So you do that, but how carry that to the next? At least once in a while I’ll go, “Nope I gotta be pulled away.” It’s like, “I’ll answer that later.” And end up that I’m right there. I can take  each one of my kids on that day. Did I do it perfectly? No. Do I do it better than most? Hopefully. So far it seems to be working out that way.

Anyway, we have to look at the highs and lows in order to find the ego, in order to come to that place with neutrality in the center and then the guides literally could start opening up. How you get there is different for everybody. Do we help with that? Yes. Am I the one and only? No, not by any means.


2:06:30.0 Ashley James: Thank you so much, Eric Thorton. Listeners can check out course the links to everything that Eric Thorton does is gonna be in the show notes of today’s podcast at Definitely check out all the other episodes that Eric Thorton’s been on. I’ll make sure that we have that all listed and linked in the show notes of today’s podcast. It’s been a pleasure having you back on the show.


2:06:50.4 Eric Thorton: Thank you very much. It’s been a pleasure being here. It’s always fun.


2:06:54 Ashley James:  Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition and how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity? Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business, support people in their success? Do you love helping people?

You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out The Institute for Integrative Nutrition.

I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program and it really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over a hundred dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition, but from a standpoint of how we can help people to shift their lives and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health, I definitely recommend you check them out.

You can Google, Insttute for Integrative Nutrition or IIN and give them a call or you can go to and you can receive a free module of their training to check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in.

Be sure to mention my name Ashley James James and the Learn True Health Podcast because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible.

I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program and I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information. We need more health coaches. In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health filed. So many health coaches are. getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic office, doctors can work in hospitals, you can work online through Skype and help people around the world. you can become an author. You can go into the school system and help your local schools shift their programs to help children be healthier. you can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success and their health goals.

There’s so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach.

So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. Mention my name, get the best deal. Give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you.

Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month. So you’re gonna wanna call them now and check it out.

And if you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.

Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price?

For high quality supplements and to talk to someone about what supplements are best for you, go to and one of our fantastic true health coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are the highest quality and the best price.


Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program.


Get Connected With Eric Thorton!

Official Website



Recommended Reading by Eric Thorton

Educating the Souls, Spiritual Healing and our Eternal Psychology


Recommended Links:

Episode 327 – Spiritual Healing

Episode 335 – Energetic Boundaries

Episode 336 – Energetic Boundaries (Part II)


Jun 6, 2019


EMF (Electromagnetic Fields)

Have you heard about Electromagnetic Field (EMF), its sources and how it affects our health?  Don’t you know that Wifi is one of the worst sources of EMF?  In this episode, you’ll learn more about EMF and how to minimize your exposures to it with the help of GreenSmoothieGirl, Robyn Openshaw. 


[00:00:03] Ashley James:   Welcome to The Learn True Health Podcast.  I’m your host Ashley James.  This is episode 358.  I am so excited to have back on the show, Green Smoothie Girl, Robyn Openshaw.  She was on the show in episode 178, where she launched her amazing book called “Vibe”, where she illustrated 200 high-frequency foods and I was blown away.  In fact, that interview was the straw that broke the camel’s back that made my husband go vegan and he was the biggest meat eater.  He only ate meat.  He almost never eats vegetables and after our interview, he just went, “I’m never eating meat again.” That was almost a year and a half ago and he never touched a piec e of meat and he feels amazing and within days of not eating meat he went, “I didn’t know that vegetables taste so good!  This is amazing! Why didn’t you tell me? I can’t believe it!” He’s so happy.  I just have to thank you for transforming our family’s health!  It’s been wonderful.


[00:01:16]  Robyn Openshaw:   Well, that’s pretty funny because that’s what not at all the intention of writing the book “Vibe” but I have been eating plant-based myself for 25 years, not entirely vegan, not 100% vegan, but probably 98 to 99% vegan for decades now and you certainly can’t avoid the issue of food.  If you’re really going to look at your own vibrational frequency and whether you’re vibrating at higher or lower frequencies and why, you cannot avoid the fact that the plant foods are high-frequency foods and the animal products and the processed foods are extremely low frequency, like close to zero.


[00:01:54]  Ashley James:  Right.  That really surprised me because I grew up in a household that believed you needed meat for strength.  You needed meat for energy and if you didn’t eat meat, you’d feel fatigued and that was the belief system that I was raised in.  And so, this idea of eating only plants was like, “Where are you going to get your energy from?”  And it’s so funny because it’s totally the opposite.  Meat makes me feel sluggish, slow and even when they do live blood cell an ounce, you see after eating a burger or something, a bloodstream is slow down to almost like sludge.  Whereas, when we eat mostly plant-based or all plant-based that we have more energy, more vibrance but you and your book in our interview, you talked about how there are scientist who can now with all these equipment can now prove that our bodies will vibrate at higher frequency when we are feeding it the foods that also have high frequency.  And that really leads into what we are going to talk about today because of this concept of, “How can we protect all of our 37.2 trillion cells in our body from all the frequencies that we’re being bombarded by?”  I know that since you came out with your book you’ve really dived into this topic.  I’d love for you to share with us what’s happening last almost a year and a half since you wrote your book?  What kind of things have you been researching and discovering?


[00:03:24]  Robyn Openshaw:  The book “Vibe” talked about a variety of things that we can do to be grounded and to discharge negative energies and a sort of a side topic or part of that you’ve (alluded) to hear and that’s pretty cool that your husband is now eating a lot more plant foods and letting go of dead low-frequency foods.  We can talk about the positive side of that which is the things we can do to ground ourselves and discharge.  I’ve really been taking a look at energetic (solution) that’s why you’re having me on to talk about today is, what are the things that we’re doing that inadvertently, they’re not even all that hard to get rid of or to mitigate, but what are some of the things that we’re doing because we live in this electronic age that is accidentally zapping our energy?  Because as you (alluded) to, you’ve been raised to think that you got to have enough protein to have energy.  Well, first of all, there’s protein in plant foods and we don’t need as much protein as many of us have been led to believe.  Most marketers in certain parts of the food industry who led us to believe that we got to have these quantities of animal products to survive and most people throughout history have had very little animal products.  In fact, they go whole entire seasons where they have no animal products if they are living close to the land and they’re not getting their food in the grocery store.  They actually have to grow it or hunt it.  Energy is really a different construct, especially when you go to more quantum energy studies and so, you’re now super clear on the fact that you want those 37 trillion cells to be vibrating.  Even the slightly higher frequency can mean a massive difference in how you feel.

So, what we’re talking about today are electromagnetic frequencies.  These are these chaotic and even radioactive frequencies that interrupt the high, normal, healthy frequency of human organisms overall but also if you get down to granular level, each of those cells they can’t really feel the measure of their creation if they are giving zapped all the time.  I’ve been really researching this idea of energetic pollution or what they call in Europe “Electrosmog” and they are way ahead of us.  In many other countries, I mean a lot of the publish researchers, there are over 8,000 published studies now of the negative health effects on human beings and other life of these chaotic frequencies.  

Russia and Europe are way ahead of us in acknowledging the problem, in documenting it and in protecting their citizens from it.  In Europe, they are sometimes referred to as EMF refugees.  There are lots of them here in the U.S. too that haven’t yet figured out that their problem is that they’re really tripped over by these chaotic frequencies.  Some of us can be in a yoga room where there are 40 people with their phones on, with WIFI emitting and they feel fine.  They don’t feel different but there are a lot of people, a significant minority of people who don’t feel well when they’re in these high-risk situations or we could talk about SMART meters.  We can talk about the kinds of light bulbs that you have in your house.  We can talk about how much dirty electricity your outlets in your home office or in your bedroom are emitting and each one of these uses a pretty easy fix for all of this cause there’s now an industry coming out saying “Okay, we got to protect people from these.”

We put people in this situation.  We’re about to be in 5G and when we go from 4G to 5G, and by the way what your phone says that you’re on 5G? That’s actually just marketing.  That’s a misnomer.  Some of the cellphone companies, I think Verizon and maybe T-Mobile say that on your phone, that does not mean that you yet have 5G.  Almost nobody has 5G but when 5G rolls out in every 3 to 4 homes in the neighborhood have one of these transmitters, we’re going to multiply the amount of EMF that we are exposed to by 100 times.  Those are the kinds of things that I’m having conversations with people about now and with my own audience about now because more and more people are becoming aware of it.  I don’t feel good when WIFI is on in my office.  I don’t feel good when I haven’t filtered the bleeding electricity in my bedroom.  I don’t sleep as well.  I don’t feel so good when I am interacting with blue light and devices all the way until I go to bed at night or I don’t fall asleep, things like that.  That’s where I’ve been in the last year and a half, Ashley.


[00:08:41]  Ashley James:  Figuring it out.  Well, what I think is interesting is the healthier we eat, the healthier we clean up.  We clean up our lifestyle.  Some people are complaining because they’re now more sensitive.  It’s like when I ate basically 10 years ago, I was eating from the dollar menu at whatever fast food joint and this is a big transformation last 10 years for me.  But when I ate that way, if I had one clean meal, I wouldn’t have felt a difference.  I always felt bad.  Right? And then all of a sudden I made that shift, I cut out gluten, dairy and switch to organic food and one are changed at a time, I noticed that I was having this huge shift in feeling better and better.  If I’d have a day where I went back and ate something that was one of the foods that I’ve cut out in the past, I just feel bad all the time so, I was habituated.  But now that I’m eating clean, if I eat one meal that’s not clean, I really feel it.  I just feel horrible.  I feel more horrible than I did in the past and I think it’s because we get so sensitive, we get so clean.  It’s actually a good thing because our body we’re now listening to the symptoms of our body.  Our body’s having an easier time telling us, “This is good, this is bad.  Go this direction, don’t go that direction.”  When we start to get really sensitive and realized, “Hey, when I turn the WIFI off, I feel better.”  When I’m in an office building and I look at my phone and there are 50 WIFI signals, I’m feeling like off.  It’s when we start to notice, we realized that we’ve spent so long becoming in tune and in touch with our body and becoming cleaner and cleaner with our health, then our body will start saying “Hey, EMF is affecting me.”

I didn’t think I was ever sensitive to EMF until I started interviewing a few people about it.  Sal La Duca is one of the first people I interviewed about EMF.  He is an electrician.  There’ll be clients of his who have insomnia.  He’ll come in and he’ll look around their bedroom and say, “No wonder you have insomnia, you have all these things plugged in by your bed.  You’re basically living on and you’re sleeping on a giant electromagnetic coil.” He unplugs everything from the bed and for the first time in 20 years, they can sleep.  And it’s just like, “My gosh!”  Because it’s invincible. 

When I went to your website, which we have an easy link:, you have a video where it talks about how sunlight.  We experienced its warmth to our skin, it’s wonderful and then we get a sunburn.  A sunburn is like our body reacting to this radiation but we don’t really see, we see everything well-lit from the sun but we don’t see it as a danger until we start getting sunburns.  So, everyone’s walking around with cellphones.  If we got sunburns from cellphones, it would be so much easier to go, “Okay! The EMFs’ affecting me.”  But the sunburn we’re getting from all the electromagnetic radiation on the devices we’re carrying around, it is leading to a lowered immune system, cancer, causing the mitochondria to not produce energy properly and so it’s affecting us negatively on a cellular level.  I almost wished it was a little more blatant.  I wished people would go like, “Wow! I got a sunburn.”  I wish people would go like, “Wow! I really noticed a difference”  because then it would be easier, but I guess people have to just lower EMF exposure and then realize like, “Wow, I am sleeping better or I have more energy, I have more mental clarity.”  When you started lowering EMF in your space, what kind of health benefits did you notice?


[00:12:55]  Robyn Openshaw:  I cannot say that I’m a particularly energetically sensitive person but I will say that I had a similar experience to what you said Sal has talked about.  I like to think of in terms of a metaphor for what you were saying earlier.  About how the more you cleaned up your diet and lifestyle, the more finely tuned you became where very minor things that you would’ve never notice back when you ate a CRAP diet, now you do notice.  I like to think of it as, “That’s because you’re a Ferrari now.  You used to be a Hugo.” you know?  A Ferrari is a more sophisticated instrument and you’re going to notice those minor changes in the environment.  I also think though on the flip side that people who are energetically sensitive.  A lot of Functional Medicine doctors are theorizing this because I asked this question every time I interact with one of them and I know lots of them, like you, I interview them constantly, that people who are energetically sensitive may be people who have an immune system that’s pretty tacks and they just can’t take the additional insults or the additional impact of energetic pollution on top of everything else they’re dealing with.  Maybe they have had a lot of heavy metals exposure in the past?  Maybe they ate a lot of foods containing glyphosatebecause they haven’t been eating organic? Their genetics combined with high levels of glyphosate in their bloodstream, in their organs and it’s a bad mix for them.  But for me, one thing that I did notice even though I don’t think that I personally am very energetically sensitive.  And then, I have another one with my child, it’s when I took my TriField Meter in or actually my Greenwave Meter in and the free EMF action plan that you mentioned, we’ve set that up on Ashley’s site,

Here are the top 10 things that I think you should address, that I think you’ll see a significant impact on your health, your quality of life, your energy, your ability to sleep, there’s the top 10.  And then, there’s another 6 that would be okay.  Most of them are inexpensive, some of them are even free.  Then go on to do this next 6, because you never know which one is really bugging you until you addressed them one at a time but it kind of let you just trip away at the problem.  When I plugged in my Greenwave filter into each electrical outlet, I found that my office was over 150 and keep in mind that anything over 50 is in the dangerous zone.  No, I’m sorry.  My office was over 400.  My bedroom and my son’s bedroom in the basement, where we had tested everything in my whole house from where the sources of dirty electricity and chaotic frequencies or EMF (Electromagnetic Frequencies) were coming from and I could tell you some of the surprising sources of EMF that we had to address.  I stuck this Greenwave filter into the wall and found that my son and I were living with more than 3 times of safe limit of EMF and when I got those then filtered.  The outlets that were over 50, I put a filter in. 

Greenwave also sells filters and on the EMF action plan that you can get at   I’ll link you to where they have a discount to get packs of them because I wanted to filter my whole house and I had a larger home.  When I plugged those into the outlets that measured over 50, I slept all the way through the night for the first time.  I think I that was 3 or 4 nights in a row.  I slept all the way through the night and I had not done that once a year for decades.  I don’t have terrible sleep problems.  I was really kind of solve my sleep problems years ago in terms of can’t fall asleep, can’t stay asleep but I would just wake up during the night.  I’ll wake up and I might be awake for 5 minutes, might get up and go to the bathroom.  I might be awake for 15 minutes but I do that once or twice a night and once I got the dirty electricity in my room cleaned up, I slept straight through the night regularly.  But I did it like 3 – 4 nights in a row and I was like, “Oh my gosh!” This has never happened to me in my adult life. 

When I filter it in my son’s room, he told me he was able to focus in school better.  He was an A student but he struggled.  He would tell me, “Mom, I can’t focus.” He was very clearly ADHD and his older brother was too.  I’m sure there’s some kind of biological component there.  I don’t know where he got it because his father isn’t ADD or ADHD.  I’m not ADD or ADHD.  I don’t have any trouble focusing, but all four of my kids.  My girls are ADD, my boys are ADHD.  He told me he was able to focus in school better.  He didn’t feel like his brain was scrambled eggs anymore, so that was really nice.  And it was such a simple fix too, to test the outlets using a meter and we’ll tell you how in the free guide, and then, to just put a filter in and clean up the ones that were bleeding too much dirty electricity.


[00:18:31]  Ashley James:  Can you explain, like you said it was 400 coming out of your outlets and your office, how far out is that field? Like if you’re sitting 2 feet away or sitting 5 feet away?  Or is that like 400 volts? So, the 400, that dirty electricity that’s coming out, is it amplified by everything that is plugged into the outlet so that the field expands the room?  How far away you have to be to not experience the dirty electricity?  Can you just explain a bit more or paint that picture?


[00:19:08]  Robyn Openshaw:  First of all, I see different experts who’ve tested this, saying different things about keeping things plugged in all the time.  You should just unplug your flat iron, ladies.  You should unplug things that might sit there plugged into the wall.  I see people contradicting each other on that, so I can’t be super definitive about whether it’s worth your time to keep things unplugged.  However, I think it’s really clear that some of the electricity is coming out into the room and getting in the way.  Now, what the radius is with your cellphone, you don’t want your cellphone in your energy field and consider your energy field about 8 feet away from you.  So, you do not want to have your emitting devices like a cellphone or a tablet or whatever, unless it’s on airplane mode.  If you turn on airplane mode and you only turn airplane mode off when you need to be actually transmitting data when you need to be making a phone call or sending and receiving texts.  We have to get in the habit of either turning airplane mode on while we have it on our body. 

So many women are sticking their cellphone in their bra going for a jog like that, going shopping like that.   You are putting radiation right next to very sensitive breast tissue and we have to stop doing that.  There are case studies and I think it’s going to be emerging whether this is really a thing or not, but there are case studies where there are brain tumors as the actual size and shape of a cellphone, right where the person holding it against their head.  See, we’ve only been carrying cellphones for like 15 years and it’s starting to become epidemic that the more interaction you have with emitting devices, the higher brain cancer.  That’s really clear now.  As for cellphones that emitting devices, you don’t want to be carrying them in your bras, ladies.

And guys listening, you don’t want to be carrying them in your pocket right next to your little swimmers.  We are talking about not just your reproductive health here, also talking about your sexual health.  Even if you are not super interested in making babies, you want to keep your sexual health vital until you’re dead, right? And then other things like the bleeding electricity, it’s probably like 6 or 8 feet that it’s affecting you, maybe more, but the really bad one is actually the WIFI.  You want that off even if it’s the floor below you and maybe your bedroom is on the top floor.  That radiation can be detected on a floor above, even 2 floors above. 

The biggest shocker when I tested everything in my house and I flew out Dr.  Libby Darnell.  I did a video, a masterclass with her.  You can take a look at that in the free guide that we give you.  I did a video masterclass with her, she flew out from Chicago and she had her big fancy equipment that I would never necessarily buy this, like 2 to 3 thousand-dollar meters and we have tested what kind of EMF I’m getting from the nearest cellphone tower, go outside and measure that.  We took a look at what kind of metering the electric company is using.  Luckily, I didn’t have a SMART meter in my house.  We need to talk about that.  Make sure we talk about that, Ashley, about what you can do.  This is in the free guide but we should mention that because that’s another one that will radiate you at very high levels, almost relentlessly and sometimes they can triangulate.  There’s one across the street, there’s one right by your house, there’s one somewhere else.  When they triangulate, there are very terrible things that can happen to people’s health.  If you’re unlucky enough to have three SMART meters triangulating in your bedroom, right where you sleep, for instance.  But anyway, WIFI is very important.  Here’s the big shocker for me, is that my son’s gaming system was so high emitting that you could literally detect it.  You can detect it even two floors above where the kid is using it.  It actually pegged out Dr. Libby Darnell’s meter when it wasn’t even on.  It was just plugged into the wall and she had warned me about that but I was like, “That seems strange.” What we found is that my son actually had a second gaming system.  They’re both plugged into the wall and he is not a huge gamer.  He might go weeks at a time where he was in school.  He was at the time we did all this measuring I think he was a junior in high school, now he is a freshman in college and gone from home, but I didn’t know he had a second one.  I don’t know if he bought it from a friend or what, but that was one of the worst sources of EMF in my house.

We did a bunch of the things that we put in this free EMF action plan.  We were able to bring the chaotic frequencies in my home way down and that’s what I’m hoping to educate your audience about, Ashley, is that when you bring it way down, we may not be able to bring it to zero but not only are we then getting a lot less exposure to radiation, which we all know that is very disorganizing for our cells, right?  It’s causing protons and electrons to malfunction, to not do what they’re supposed to do in our cells.  We’re picking up electrons and protons that we don’t need.  Cells are not able to transact business with each other as they normally would.  But in addition to reducing radiation, we also then have a home that’s more like the calming peaceful place that we want it to be.  We want our homes to be like a safe haven, a place where we can calm down, rest and relax after work.  That’s part of the goal here too. 


[00:25:09]  Ashley James:  I love it.  I had Dr.  Klinghardt on my show, who actually is a local to me, just about 15 minutes away at the Sophia Health Institute.  He’s internationally known and in his 40 years of practicing, many parents have brought their children who been diagnosed or misdiagnosed with being on the spectrum have come to him and the first thing he has them do is remove exposure to WIFI.  He absolutely sees a huge difference in children who are autistic or have sensory processing issues, that their symptoms are magnified by being around WIFI and that’s when he removes devices from their environment.  He has the parents turn off WIFI and hopefully live in a home that’s not like an apartment where you’re exposed no matter what but at a home that can be far enough away from neighbor’s WIFI.   That they calm down, that they have less ticks and less outbursts.  And then, he explains that glyphosate being a big part of this because glyphosate is a chelator and doctors definitely said that’s been on the show, talked about us too that glyphosate will grab heavy metals like aluminum, will deposit them in our kidneys and deposit them in our brain. 

Even in utero, this is happening because it crosses the blood-brain barrier, crosses the placental barrier.   So, heavy metal is a bit accumulating in their nervous tissue and then, when we turn on the WIFI, which is 60 Hertz I believe, it’s vibrating then metal in this tiny microscopic metal that’s in our brain.  It’s vibrating that which is heating up because when you vibrate a metal, it’s going to heat up.  It’s like putting your head in the microwave.  It’s the WIFI that is making the heavy metal in your body vibrate which is creating heat and that, of course, is going to damage us.  And they’re seeing that it affects the mitochondria negatively.


[00:27:20]  Robyn Openshaw:  We should talk about that because there are other things people don’t think about with metals.  You’re talking about actual heavy metals that are trapped in tissues, organs, and cells, but what about the fact that we wear metal jewelry, ladies?  And then we sit in our cars, and we text, we’re literally making ourselves an antenna in a microwave.  That might be kind of extreme.  Let’s not create panic because people will say, “I do it and I don’t feel like I fried myself when I get out of the car and walk away.”  That’s true, but can we just acknowledge this simple fact?  That reminds me when we go through the scanner, the TSA scanner when we go to get on a flight and the TSA agent will tell you when you say, “I want to opt out, I don’t want to go.  I don’t want to get radiated in your scanner.” And they’re like, “It’s just like being in the sun for 10 minutes.” Well, it’s not a single exposure.  It’s the accumulative effect of the many exposures that we have.  Like you said before, you almost wish that we had a violent reaction to these exposures so that we were motivated to bring the level down.  We do need to acknowledge that there’s an insidious process that’s taking place from accumulative exposures and going through the checkpoint to get on a flight is just one of them than being on the flight, actually exposes you to quite a big radiation.  But that’s why it’s a really multifactorial problem and we need to just be aware. 

That’s why I love to do shows like yours where you’re super interested in educating all the health coaches and other people who follow you about this because there’s a lot of little, small, not-difficult-at-all things that you can do and you’re chipping away that exposure.  And if you can decrease that exposure by 3 floors and it’s easy and cheap to do so, why would you not do that?  It’s not even changing your lifestyle.  We’re not saying you have to drink a quart of green smoothie a day to bring your exposure down.  That’s like actually a significant change that I always try to get people to make.  By bringing your EMF level down, does it decrease your enjoyment of your life? I’m not asking you to give up your Cheetos to bring your EMF down or whatever is like this pleasure thing that you have in your life.  You don’t have to give up pleasure in your life to bring EMF down.  It’s just being aware and it’s making some really simple changes.  You don’t have to go out of your way to bring your EMFs’ level down.  Does that make sense?


[00:29:53]  Ashley James:  Yeah, I think people might go, “Woah! But I’m addicted to my phone?  I look at it all the time.  I don’t want to put it in airplane mode because I want to know when I get a text.” What about those people that want to lower their EMFs’ but they don’t want to interrupt their phone addiction?


[00:30:09]  Robyn Openshaw:  Yeah, you know what? I am finding that fewer people are saying that because they know they have a problem.  They know they are addicted.  Now our phones are telling us how much time we spent online and the amount of time I spent looking at my phone is a full-time job.  Now, granted I have a full-time job that is online, but I shouldn’t be spending 8 hours a day on social media, texting, phone etcetera but that’s what my phone tells me.  What I’m finding is that people aren’t saying that they’re like, “No, I want to be addicted to my phone.  I want to look at my phone all day, every day.” I’m finding that we are totally in hammered in our phones and our devices that we are super excited about and now people are going “Oh, my gosh! What could I be doing with this time that I spent staring at a device?”  I’m not saying it’s completely easy to say I’m going to have my phone in airplane mode a lot more than I do.  I mean at a minimum, put your phone on airplane mode at night and you might think of “Oh well.  My phone is charging 6 feet away from me or whatever.” This has been a hard one for me to get my kids who sleep with their cellphone next to their head.  I don’t.  I put it in the bathroom around the corner from me but I always turn airplane mode on.

There’s turning airplane mode on which eliminates all emissions from your phone.  There’s no transmitting from your phone at all when the airplane mode is on.  But here’s the thing, if you’re a person who constantly has a WIFI on on your phone, then instead of your phone pinging the towers every few minutes, it’s doing it every few seconds.  That’s another thing.  All of this is incremental and every little bit helps.  So, not having your WIFI on all the time.  Some people want to have the most inexpensive cellphone plan they can until they really rely on WIFI.  I would just challenge anybody who’s like, “No.  I wanted to look at my phone all day, every day.”  I think people are really saying that they’re trying to see the cost of that, not just the cost in terms of the amount, that might be new information and for some people listening, I think your audience was pretty educated and must probably be aware of the amount even though I would say probably 98% of the population isn’t, but they’re also starting to become aware of the cost in terms of their social life and how meaningful their interactions with other people are and their productivity.  When you put in an eight-hour per day at work but two and a half hours of it is being hijacked by your phone in texting people and looking at Facebook and whatever, how are we getting ahead of our careers when we’re doing that?  So, there’s another benefit to decreasing your screen time.  There’s more benefit than you’re getting less exposure to radiation.


[00:33:08]  Ashley James:  I don’t remember the exact study but it was very interesting [inaudible] talked about it that they did a study where they put a cellphone up to brains to a certain amount of time, 2 minutes, 2 hours whatever it was and then, they looked at the mitochondria.  The mitochondria, the powerhouses of the cells for those who don’t know, they could produce ATP, which is the S-cellular energy.  There are some doctors that say that all diseases are diseases of the mitochondria.  That they basically can look back and say that where disease starts, is when the mitochondria are damaged or can’t work properly then that’s the beginning of any disease, that’s kind of the root cause.   Some people believed it’s the root cause because what they found is that the mitochondria go to sleep and when they would be directly beside a cellphone, a phone call or a smartphone, the mitochondria for a certain amount of time, go to sleep.  The mitochondria of the nervous tissues, of the brain cells.  That is really scary.  The idea that our exposures constantly dampening the mitochondria from functioning but the mitochondria of our brain, of our nervous tissue are being dampened.  They can see that with all their $20,000 scientific tools.  They can see that and we don’t feel it.  You don’t feel it.  Besides feeling maybe brain fog or fatigue or not having a good sleep, we don’t feel the EMF but if we keep going the way we’re going, we’re going to create disease.


[00:34:53]  Robyn Openshaw:   Yes and you know, we don’t know yet what the long-term impact would be with so much radiation we’re not exposed to especially in the last 15 years since cellphone become ubiquitous.  What will be the long-term impact on the neurological disease?  We know that neurological disease is sky-rocketing.  We know that Parkinson, ELS, MS, dementia, Alzheimer’s are sky-rocketing and when we’re shooting a stun gun, like you said our neurological function, I have to wonder if there’s going to be a long-term negative effect on the neurological health of the people using all these technologies all the time and not mitigating it because right now, I’m talking to you, I’m obviously seating in front of the computer and I’m aware that I have some exposure right now.  But my cellphone is not in the room with me and when I go get it later and checked it, I’ll either put it back where it was and leave it out of the room with me where it doesn’t tempt me to pick it up and check it three times an hour, or if  I bring it back in here, I will turn it on airplane mode.  So, I know we hit that one hard and there are other things that we can look at, but each one of these things does make a difference, so don’t feel overwhelmed, just chip away at it.


[00:36:22] Ashley James:  I can attest to the fact that you don’t have your cellphone with you.  So, I tried calling you right before interviewing, you didn’t answer so I’m like, “She doesn’t have her cellphone with her.” She’s walking the talk.  She must be decreasing her EMF exposure.  Yes, I caught you.  I caught you doing exactly what you say you do, which is awesome.  Very cool.  So, any of the outlets in our home or office can be just spewing dirty electricity.  We can think of the Fukushima leaking radiation.  Our house could be leaking electromagnetic radiation at us and disrupting our overall health.  We can easily fix that.  We’ll use your free guide and it talks about the steps we can take to, first of all, to test our meters, to test our outlets and then fix our outlets.  Should they’d be above 50, which you say is the number that you want to be below and that’s at, as the Free guide.  Okay, so that’s taking care of.  Let’s talk about SMART meter because I first heard about SMART meters, I feel maybe about 7 years ago and they sounded really crazy.  So, I might not have a full understanding about SMART meters but are they like these big white boxes that are outside your home that are having their own version of WIFI?  And they talked to your house or they measure the amount of energy and they actually emit the frequency just like WIFI, is that correct?


[00:38:02]  Robyn Openshaw:   Kind of it.  And we’ll tell you what you need to know in the free guide in the  But here’s the thing, the electric company doesn’t want to come out and read your meter anymore.  Obviously, as technologies advanced, they wanted to get people out of it and automate just like every else does.  We’re now in the age where a lot of people refer to this as the age of the internet-of-things and 5G is accommodating.  The rollout of 5G that is on its way to select American cities and probably everywhere, where there’s any population density, is to accommodate the internet-of-things.  Where now your refrigerator will be attached to an app and will be emitting and your thermostats and so many other things and we’ve already seen these.  There’s a medicine cabinet that has Bluetooth in it. 

When I was moving last year, I saw it.  This is it.  These are the internet-of-things.  Everything’s going to be emitting and nobody’s really counting the cost and saying, “Well, I don’t think we should sell a bathroom medicine cabinet?”  They’re emitting chaotic radiation that our family is exposed to.  Nobody’s going to say that because they just want the high-tech thing that’s what’s really hot right now.  So, of course, the electric company doesn’t want to meter you by sending a guy out, that’s really expensive.  So, there are analog meters that ping or send data about your electric usage to the electric company whether it’s 5 miles away or 50 miles away.  In the house I just moved away from and in this one that I just moved up here to Park City, Utah 9 months ago, I have an analog meter and it’ll ping the electric company a couple of times a month.  No big deal, you shouldn’t worry about that.  That’s just not going to rate on my top 10 things for you to worry about.  However, take a look at the free guide so you can figure out whether you have a SMART meter.  I started talking about SMART meters 12 years ago on and I had my own style.  I was saying you’re not going to talk about that because you sound like a crazy tinfoil hot lady because that’s weird.  You shouldn’t talk about these stories about people who live in a place where three SMART meters are triangulating, that their [inaudible] ruptured, because you sound like a crazy person.  I’m like, “Well, okay.“   But I think this is a real thing and this is why I think it’s a real thing and it’s measurable.  This is not hocus-pocus anymore.  We’ve come a long way in the last 12 years since I started writing about that and I think more people are taking it seriously.  It’s more established science whereas back then, it was mostly just testimonials of people saying, “Hey, these SMART meters are scary.”  But the thing of these SMART meter is that it’s attached to maybe the side of your house or condo or whatever and it’s literally pinging the electric company every few seconds and it’s a very, very strong signal.   Now, why would this matter?  What if it’s right outside your child’s bedroom? 

What if it’s right below your condo?  Now, I have an employee and this is in the free guide, I have an employee, who went to the electric company, she’s a North Carolina.  She said, “My Function Medicine Doctor said that I am made very ill by electromagnetic frequencies, and I can’t be near a SMART meter.”   Sometimes we talk about negative things.  This is kind of exciting because 10 or 12 years ago, people were going out in the middle of the night and smashing the meter, and then, the electrical company comes out and would fix it, and they would go out and smashed it again.  So basically, subtle disobedience or people were going out putting aluminum foil on it, and there were companies who were developing shields so that the in the inside of your wall, if you have a SMART meter that you could try to shield your house and that’s a whole rub at all, we won’t go down.  But these are the kinds of things people are doing 12 years ago is accessible disobedience.  It’s like the Boston Tea Party, let’s all throw the tea in the ocean or in the harbor.  Here’s the thing, my employee in North Carolina told the electrical company that she would be made very ill by having a SMART meter and not only did they opt her out of the SMART meter, but they didn’t charge her to put in an analog meter instead. 


[00:42:44]  Ashley James:  Wow. 


[00:42:45]  Robyn Openshaw:  And I think this is exciting because it sets a president if they’re going to let her do it.  Now granted she got a letter from a Functional Medicine Doctor and, “Hey maybe you have a neighbor who’s willing to do it for you, who’s a doctor and we’ll write you this letter or whatever. “But we’re going to attach this and we’re going to link in the free guide that’s on, we’re going to put on there,  we’re going to scratch out her name and we’re going to put a link to it so you could see exactly what her Function Medicine Doctor said, that created a liability issue for the power company, the form that she filled out and they got her off the hook.  So, 10 to 12 years ago, my own employees were telling me that I was a lunatic for even talking about these issues.  Five years ago, we were able to opt out but only after a big fight and we have done then pay 20 to 30 bucks a month for them to come out and read it to be able to get out of the SMART meter.  Now, these power companies are accepting that it does harm people and are waiving the fee if you could say that it harms you.   


[00:43:58]  Ashley James:  How do you know if you have a SMART meter?


[00:44:01]  Robyn Openshaw:  Go take a look because it is sort of a visual thing and they do look different.  But in the video masterclass, I did with Dr.  Libby, it’s in the free guide that we’re sharing with you.  But there is a video about that where Libby goes out and we show what my analog meter on the side of my house looks like.  We show photos of what SMART meters looked like and we show the ones that the guys would come around and take a look at.  So, it’s more of a show than a tell because they do look different but we are clear about that and we show in the video masterclass that you can see in the guide. 


[00:44:46]  Ashley James:  So, the SMART meter attached to your house is sending a signal every few seconds to a receiver somewhere in the street, somewhere on a pole and that receiver is receiving the SMART meter readings from the neighborhood, and then, sending it to the electric company?  But because signal like a WIFI or a Bluetooth, all these signals don’t beam directly they go out like a sphere and so the signal, it’s trying to get to the street.  The SMART meter has to be strong enough to send the data all the way maybe on a block down or wherever the reader is.  So, the signal has to be incredibly strong and every time it pulses to send out that information that’s like a sphere wave that’s pulsing through your entire house and penetrating everyone in it.


[00:45:48]  Robyn Openshaw:  Yes,  and I would say there are transmitters and receivers.  When we have 5G,  I am going to stay in touch with you Ashley and I am going to share a solution for 5G, like a whole home solution that I think you’ll be super interested in and I think that you’ll want to tell your followers about it because those of us who know 5G is coming and is like, “Okay, what are we going to do when 5G comes?” Because we’re not going to opt out of WIFI.  I mean, it’s just the way the world works.  I’m not going to buy a refrigerator as long as I have other options.  I’m not going to buy a refrigerator that I operate by app and my thermostat isn’t controlled by an app.  I got a litter robot for my cat and the next thing I know, there’s an app on my phone.  I don’t know if whoever set it up for me.  I don’t think they put it on my phone.  Why is there a litter robot for my cat on my phone?  When I say internet-of-things, I mean it’s proliferating in a quantum way.  I’m really excited about the fact that there are companies developing solutions for this.  And unfortunately, 99 point something percent of us are going to be asleep in the wheel, but not your followers. 

They’re going to stay close to you, you’re paying, you have your ear at the ground, you’re going to pay attention and the solutions that actually worked.  They’re actually proven to work.  I am right now following a company that I think they have the solution and I’ll be introducing you to them.  I have been talking to them very extensively.  In the meantime, there are multiple solutions if you want to screen blue light, then you’re going to have to maybe the last couple hours of the day.  If you’re going to be working on your PC or looking at your phone or watching TV, maybe wear blue light blockers.  We have in the free guide our favorite blue blockers stuff like that, or you’re going to keep your kid’s gaming stations unplugged.  That was a rule from that time forward when I found out that Tennyson’s gaming systems even when they weren’t in use, were one of the biggest sources in my house.  You’re going to have your WIFI turned off.  You’re not going to have your WIFI in the room where you work, if possible.  These are the kinds of things that you’re going to do to bring this down but SMART meters are one of your worst sources, WIFI in your home is one of your worst sources and your kid’s gaming system is one of your worst sources.  Hope that’s helpful.


[00:48:17]  Ashley James:  Absolutely helpful.  I’m going to have to run around my house and see if I have a SMART meter now.  I have a modem or router that I can turn off, that has an on-off switch.  Once I don’t have an on-off switch, it’s like a pain in the butt to turn off if you unplug it and plug it back in.  Sometimes you have to reboot the system and their software.  So, get one that has an on-off switch.  I’ll see if I can give the info about mine in the show notes of the podcast  It’s so easy.  We only turn our WIFI on when we absolutely need it.  Like I’m sitting in the sauna and there’s a tablet in there and I want to stream some music or watch something.  I turn on the WIFI then and when I get off the sauna, I immediately turn it off.  I only use it when I need it, otherwise, we hardwired all of our computers directly to the modem, so that we don’t need to have that bombardment frequency. 

What’s really interesting is that I can tell when the WIFI is on.  I got to be in the bedroom and my husband will turn it off and then, come into the bedroom to go to bed and then I’ll say, “Did you just turn it off?” Like I can feel it.  It’s like being agitated and then all of a sudden not being agitated.  It’s really weird like it was on all the time, it’s like a one percent agitation I feel like that’s kind of my norm, but when I turn it off all of a sudden it just feels like a little bit less agitation.  It’s interesting that now that I turn it off most of the time and then when I turn on, I can actually feel it.  But at first, if I go to someone else’s house, I don’t notice it.  It’s very slight but it’s really interesting.  So, it’s fun to play with to turn it off.  It’s also cool to turn it off because it gets the whole household sort of like winding down for bedtime instead of playing on their tablets until 11 at night.  But I love your idea for wearing the blue-blocking glasses, having the WIFI off as much as possible, checking for SMART meters and opting out in SMART meters when possible.  5G is really scary.  We’ve talked about it on the show before.  I am kind of terrified and I’m thinking I’m going to move to the middle of nowhere if 5G comes to my neighborhood.  So, I’m really glad that you have a word with a company to bring us some solutions. 

I look forward to having you back on the show to talk about that.  You mentioned light bulbs.  It’s funny because my husband just replaced all the light bulbs in our kitchen and I think we spent half an hour at home depot.  He was going for light bulbs and I’m like, “No! That’s a bad light bulb.  That’s a dirty light bulb.” So, we spent half an hour trying to pick the cleanest light bulbs.  I’d love to talk about light bulbs, what are the bad ones and what are the good ones?


[00:51:05]  Robyn Openshaw:  Okay.  The worst ones, these are the light bulbs that kind of came out when people became more aware of global warming and then, after a few years of them being out on the market, people are like, “Wait a minute, this has mercuryin it.” It’s off-gassing mercury.  The ones to categorically avoid are called CFLs’.  Those are swirly bulbs, don’t buy them.  If you have them in your house, you have to get rid of them.  I hate to say it because that means mercury is going to go in the landfill but I care more about the bad beam.  You don’t want to have it in your house.  Now, when you put those CFLs’ in, they are doing most of their off-gassing like 70 percent of it within the first few days after installing it, so they’re just terrible in those early days.  They put out a lot of EMF and they’re emitting mercury.  So, please stop buying those CFLs’.  Those were sold to us as a global warming solution and they’re just not a solution for anything good. 

You have to replace them with incandescent bulbs.  Those are the old school ones.  Those are the ones you grew up with and they’re cheap.  We linked you to them on Amazon.  Those were good, dependable, cheap incandescent bulbs, but you can get them at Home Depot too, whatever you want to do.  Probably your second best, the third category of bulbs is the LED bulbs.  Those are probably about 20 bucks for an 8 pack.  Those are more expensive than incandescent.  So, don’t you love the good ones are the cheap ones here?  Going back to the cheap bulbs, the ones that we had when we were kids.  LEDs’ are the second best but I’ve tested some that are pretty high EMF and some that are pretty low.  If you have a choice just go with incandescent, right?


[00:52:56]  Ashley James:  My understanding with the LEDs’ that they have a flash like a flicker rate?  That is not very healthy.  Have you heard of that?


[00:53:05]  Robyn Openshaw:  Well, yes.  It may be affecting your pineal gland.  We don’t really know yet what impact LED bulbs are having.  They’re being sold as being useful for our health in some ways.  Other data suggest that LEDs’ in at least some applications, in some products, are a problem.  So, if you have your choice and you don’t have a reason to be using LED, just go with the incandescent.  So, the pineal gland and the blue light thing just to barely touch on that to give you the very basic nutshell here, is that your pineal gland used to produce melatonin starting about 9 or 10 o’clock at night, after the sun went down because your body’s signal went came through your eyes in to your pineal gland in the brain and melatonin was produced to calm you down and allow you to sleep. 

Well, the problem now is everybody’s looking at screens all the way until bedtime and that blue light spectrum is telling your pineal gland, “Hey! It’s still daytime.”  So, it’s confusing your brain.  Your pineal gland is not necessarily producing melatonin or not enough to calm you down and lets you sleep.  You can wear blue blockers or you can just stop interacting with screens at night and decide, “No, we’re going to enjoy each other.  Enjoy your husband.  Enjoy your kids.  Read a book.” Something like that.


[00:54:35]  Ashley James:  My husband just mouths to me.  We have a SMART meter.


[00:54:40]  Robyn Openshaw:  He probably googled it.


[00:54:44] Ashley James:  He’s looking at me.  He’s in the office but he knows not to make any noise.  So, I’m going to follow your free guide, to opt out of my SMART meter.  I’m so glad I’m learning from you today and I’m glad my listeners are learning from you today.  Ryan Sternagel, who I’ve had on the show and I know you are friends with him because he’s local to you.


[00:55:04]  Robyn Openshaw:  Yup.


[00:55:06]  Ashley James:  He is now called the Stern Method, before it was My Kid Cures Cancer, that was the name of the show.  He talks about the new house he built, which is now completed, but he built the entire house after they helped their son who no longer have cancer.  They decide to live the lowest EMF, the lowest toxicity light possible and they built a house out from scratch, out of all non-toxic materials, which is really interesting.  But he talks about how he has light bulbs in his house that are red.  So, at night they turn on those lights and he says it’s kind of funny.  The neighbors probably think they’re like satanic worshippers.  The whole house is like lit red but that is to lower the blue light.  Do you have any thoughts in choosing incandescent bulbs for their color spectrum?


[00:56:01]  Robyn Openshaw:  You can but you know the very best thing is that we live as close to nature as possible.  We just have as few electronics at night in our energy field as possible and we’re looking at blue light as little as possible.  You could go to the links that Ryan and Teddy have.  I just had dinner with them on Friday night, and the things that they have done to help Ryder, I mean, he still has the tumor but they rested the growth of it and it isn’t growing.  They were able to get out of some of the chemotherapy that the doctors wanted for him.  The things that they’ve done have been nothing sort of heroic.  I’m not sure but most people are going to put the red lights spectrum to kind of go the other direction and compensate for the blue light, but you can do that if you want. 

I think if we’re really getting back to nature and we’re getting back to normal circadian rhythms and the normal biorhythms of the earth.  We want to just think, “What did our ancestors do?”  What were our great grandparents doing?  Because there wasn’t insomnia back then.  There wasn’t ADD, there was very little autism.  Our grandparents didn’t even know the word autism.  Now, we all know lots of autistic kids.  I know a pediatrician who was told when they were in medical school, “You’ll see this a couple of times in your career.”  That’s how fast this whole autism thing has come on but I think it can be simpler than that.  I don’t think we necessarily have to go retrofit our house with the red lights at night.  What we can do though is leave the lights off.  I’m not saying you have to light up a candle either.  Most people are going to be just fine with turning the lamp next to your bed and reading a book as your mind and your neurological system shut down for the night.  I do not find it difficult to go to sleep after watching TV on my wall in front of my bed, that’s 12 feet away.  But if I sit there and look at my phone until I go to bed, I can’t go to sleep.  You got to know yourself.


[00:58:19]  Ashley James:  Yeah, exactly.  When I first heard about blue-blocking glasses, I really thought it was a total first.  So, the guest that I’d hunt on who sold them said, “Well, let me send you a pair.” I had them on for a totally different reason, nothing to do with blue-blocking.  We just kind of got on the subject and he said, “Let me send you a pair.” And I’m like, “Yeah, whatever.”  I put them on when the sun sets and by 9 at night, I could not keep my eyes open.  I’m like, “Okay, I’m going to bed.” Like I was exhausted, my body was like out.  That was such a big difference because I’m one of those night owls.  I can just be up until 2:00 in the morning and what happens is if we stay up past 10:00, our body gets the second wind.  The brain goes “Okay, I guess we got to stay up.  Stop making melatonin, okay?  Start making some stress hormones.  Let’s stay awake.  Let’s push through and just pull up all night.”

That’s why then if we’re watching TV until 11:00, a lot of people then really have problems falling asleep, and then they don’t have deep quality sleep.  So, wearing the blue-blocking glasses or putting the apps on your phone that block or lower the blue light can make a really big difference to melatonin production.  This is all in the realm of our devices which we’ve only have on this one generation.  Our parents didn’t grow up with these.  I didn’t have a cellphone until I was 19 and that was pretty early on to have a cellphone at ‘99.  But I didn’t have a smartphone until 2010, I think?  It’s really recent.  We have to remember what life was like 30 years ago.  The technology has completely changed our habits and these habits have led to poor health, and so, we need to come back to nature.  We talked about 5G, light bulbs, SMART meters, making sure that we don’t have dirty electricity coming out of our outlets.  Is there anything else about EMF that we want to be aware of?


[01:00:30]  Robyn Openshaw:  I think one subject that we should touch on is that most of us are in contact with earth like we were for thousands of years.  So, if you’re having a stressful day and there’s a lot of negative energy going on, maybe you have some problems with a colleague, or your boss or some partner that you work with or in your own personal life. 

A lot of times we can feel a lot better by going outside and getting as much of your body in contact with the earth as possible.  Or you can hug a tree, that might sound like very tree hugger but here’s the thing, when we do that, we are in contact with a very high-frequency source and we’re going to discharge electrons we don’t need and protons onto the ground and we’re going to pick up others that we do need.  The body knows.  Your molecules know what atoms they need.  So, you’re going to be able to ground yourself, most people aren’t doing that.  They don’t ground themselves at all.  If you get off on an airplane and you get to your hotel and you feel sort of fragmented, or like Ashley was talking about, how she can tell when the WIFI is on and when it’s not because she just feels kind of unsettled or wired.  I’m sort of putting my own words on it, but if you get off on an airplane and you feel like that you’re not alone, lots of people feel like that and it’s that exposure to radiation. 

Take your shoes off on the airplane and put with your socks on the floor of the airplane, that’ll help a little bit.  And then, when you get to your hotel or to your friend’s house or wherever you’re going, go outside and sit on the ground for 5 minutes.  It is absolutely amazing, especially if it’s a sunny day and you can go outside and put your hands, your legs, and your feet, just sit on the ground or lie on the ground if it’s appropriate.  On dirt, on the sand, if it’s a beach, on the grass even better, just lie on the ground.  You’re going to be discharging a lot of dirty, chaotic energies and you’re going to be picking up electrons that you need but also if you’re lying there in the sun, guess what? You are an electrical being and you are charging in the sun, you are picking up energies that you need doing that.  If you drink a glass of water before you go outside to do that, even better. 

Now, your electrical system can work better because it’s hydrated.  We know that the electrical system needs water to be conductive.  Don’t take your cellphone with you rather than go outside with your cellphones in the grass, leave it, get away from the house.  These are the kind of simple things that we can do and it gives us back what we used to have.  We are talking about circadian rhythms and what our ancestors used to go back before there were all these people complaining of brain fog, ADD and we have all these sensory processing disorders.  Let’s just go back to basics and maybe that doesn’t solve every problem that you’ve ever had to go out and ground yourself, but I do it every single day that I get the chance during the spring, summer and fall.  That’s probably something that I would want to mention.  That’s really simple that we all forget to do.  If you’re not in contact with the earth, at least get in the sun. 


[01:03:58]  Ashley James: I like this idea of earthing.  I had an HPAT talked about it and she recommends everyone have a grounding mat.  So, my husband built one.  He’s very hands-on, he went online, looked up some guides, went to home depot and bought all these materials and he built a grounding mat.  This guide said you can put the metal rod in the earth and have the copper wire coming from the rod all the way through.  You have to move your screen and your window to have a come through and then, come into the metal mat that you’ll put at the base of your bed so your feet are on the metal mat.  Or if you’re on an apartment or too far away from a window, you could plug it into the grounding part of the outlet.  So, my husband didn’t tell me he did this which is a great double-blind study for our bedroom because I didn’t know what’s going on.  I knew he was building but I didn’t know that he had actually plugged it into the grounding outlet and put it on our bed.  I was lying there the entire night.  I could not sleep.  I felt like I had drink coffee all day long and I was so upset.


[01:05:19]  Robyn Openshaw:   Okay, let me say something about that because my legs tingled the whole time when I had a grounding mat on my bed and I did not notice at that time, but now I do.  But you have to filter the electricity in your bedroom first. 


[01:05:32] Ashley James:  Right.  That’s why I’m getting that.  He plugged it into the ground and thinking that was safe, but if you have dirty electricity in your bedroom, it’s just amplifying it.  And so, I felt horrible and I was like, “What did you do to me?  This is torture.”  So, the next night he plugged it outside and it was a much different experience.  There wasn’t any agitation but it energized me so it was a different feeling.  It was a different feeling having it plugged outside.  We decided it wasn’t best to be in our bedroom probably because of what you’re saying.  We need to clean up the energy or electricity in our bedroom.  We ended up plugging it and putting it on the sofa in the living room, but we found that and of course, we couldn’t just go outside and freaking sat in the ground.  We had to create some kind of way to ground inside for fun just to experiment with it.  I noticed every time I sat on it, I was energized and I felt clear-headed.


[01:06:31]  Robyn Openshaw:  That’s good. 


[01:06:32]  Ashley James:  I just felt more energized and more clear-headed which was really interesting but I could have probably had the same wonderful benefits if I just went and lay down on the backyard, but I loved that concepts of grounding that we are releasing these electrons.  We’re releasing those extra electrons and we’re connecting with the energy that our body needs.  That makes so much sense. 


[01:06:59]  Robyn Openshaw:  Yeah.  And everyone should have if they’re going to make an investment in ongoing testing.  Don’t buy an infrared sauna unless you know it’s low EMF.  It’s one of the things that you’re going to consider.  Different things in the future, to tell you one more thing, make sure you have a TriField Meter and a Greenwave Meter, they’re doing two different things and we linked you to them in the free guide.  One more time, it’s at   But I linked you to the meter that I liked for testing hotspots so you can test, “What’s my home office like?  What’s my bedroom like in an area?  Or what’s the inside of my infrared sauna-like?  Or near my son’s gaming system when it’s plugged in?  What’s that like?”  But then, the other one is the one that you plugged into the wall and so we linked you to that.  Those are two very important things so that you’re not just guessing, okay?  You need to know where are the risk factors in your home.  And you know, if your refrigerator is emitting then that doesn’t mean you’re going to get rid of your refrigerator.  Just make sure you don’t stand by your refrigerator necessarily all the time. 


[01:08:07]  Ashley James:   Well, they emit through WIFI, so we turn off the WIFI or maybe there’s a way to turn it off?  To opt off the emitting either the Bluetooth or the WIFI, whatever it’s emitting, maybe there’s a way to turn it off?  But if you’re turning off, hopefully turning off its WIFI, it could lower that.  Now, what about these devices that we’ve seen people buy?  They put on the back their cellphone or put on their laptops to help lower EMF?


[01:08:39]  Robyn Openshaw:  I linked you to the one that I like and it’s not actually lowering down EMF, it’s protecting human cells from chaotic frequencies.  It’s a patent device and this is one of the really simple and inexpensive solutions and I keep some in my purse, a 5 pack.   We have negotiated a 40% discount so it’s like 5 of them for 60 bucks.  It’s a really inexpensive fix and you put it on your device and what it is?  It’s 3 layers of paramagnetic materials.  We have crystalline structures in our pineal gland and so, for instance, homing pigeons, hawk and whales that can travel thousands of miles to get back home.  They are grounding these crystalline structures and what these paramagnetic materials are doing is protecting human cells from chaotic radiations.  It’s not getting in the way of signal, it’s not decreasing the actual emissions but putting one of this on your devices is not the only thing that we are talking about today but it’s one of the easiest things and it’s my first priority.   I carry them in my purse so that if I meet a child who’s carrying a cellphone, I put it on there.   I don’t ask their parents for any money for it.   I just put it on their child’s cellphone because I’ve tested this.   I’ve done this in one of my followers and was like, “Green Smoothie Girl did this. “ We actually had a living house plant with the same phone next to the house plant.  One of them protected by this device which is called the xZubi device on the cellphone, one of them unprotected and the unprotected phone killed the house plant.  We’ve actually done this little experiment multiple times.  

The first time I did it was with one of my kids for a science fair project and this made it very visual so the other kids would see, “No, you don’t want to carry your cellphone while it’s transmitting in your pocket all day, every day.”  I wish every kid in America knew this and the reason I’ll stick it on the cellphone of a child I barely know.  First of all, I’ll explain to them what I’m doing and I’ll muscle test them and some people say all muscle testing isn’t real but I think your audience can understand kinesiology a little bit and how there are certain things that affect our overall energy.   I have to blind-tested many people who don’t even know what I’m doing to their cellphone as being very strong when their cellphone is not in their energy fields, and then, I put their cellphones in their other hand and all of the sudden they’re completely weak.   Their arm just collapses with very light pressure from me.  Their arm just collapses against their body and then when I put the xZubi on this device, they don’t know that I’ve done it.  They don’t know I put anything on their cellphone.  They’re strong again.  I did that many times, always blind, never told the person what I was doing, never let them see that I was doing something to their phone.   It just worked every single time.  

So, I became a believer in that patented technology that’s FCC tested and Independent lab shows that it protects human brain cells and human living cells 84 to 100 percent from the effects of these chaotic frequencies.  What I’m really concerned about is children because their brains are more exposed than ours are.   We get a harder skull, a thicker skull as we get older but children’s organs and brain matter are so very exposed.  The younger, the more vulnerable.   So, finding out where that SMART meter is on your place, I’m going to follow up with you, Ashley.   I’m going to ask what you learned.   I’m not worried about you because you’re going to protect your kid.   You’re a total mama bear but if that SMART meter is right outside your child’s room, your child is more vulnerable than you are.  We are seeing a meteoric rise in childhood brain cancer and I have to wonder if the exposure to radiation is one of the reasons. 


[01:12:44]  Ashley James:  Or combination like Dr. Klinghardt says, “The heavy metals from the glyphosate,” because glyphosate is the key that binds the heavy metals in the soil and heavy metals in our body.   Heavy metals wherever it comes in to contact with and it will release heavy metals when it changes PH.  So, when it changes from the blood to the cerebral spinal fluid, it releases.  It lets go of the mercury, lets go of the aluminum, lets go of whatever it’s holding on to the heavy metal and same with the kidneys when blood becomes urine and that’s why glyphosate deposits the heavy metals into the brain and into the kidneys.  And then, we’ve got the tri-effect there, we have more heavy metals in our brain than we did 30 years ago because our food supplies contaminated with glyphosate, and on top of that, we have the high EMFs’ coming in that we didn’t have 30 years ago.  We didn’t have this level on these devices and then that’s vibrating the heavy metals.  It’s a perfect storm we’re seeing and it is so sad to see that the childhood cancers, like brain cancers going through the roof and that in one generation we’ve gone from I think 1 in 10 thousand autistic children on the spectrum to 1 in 40? I think I’ve heard it’s the latest number?  It’s not because we weren’t diagnosing them correctly back then, that’s absolutely a complete smoke screen. 

We have a problem and it happened in one generation and we need to figure out what the heck is going on?  And I know we feel very disempowered when we think of the big industries.   Who am I to stop 5G? That kind of thing.  We feel really powerless but where we are empowered is the list that you’ve given us because it’s up to us individually to put xZubi on our devices, to turn off our WIFI and put our phone in airplane mode and just go down the list that you gave us.  One piece at a time, we can lower our exposures as much as possible.  If we live near Chernobyl or if we live near Fukushima a few years ago, we’d be taking measures, right? Because we know that there’s radiation happening to us, right? So, if you live near known radiation, you do something about it.  But there’s radiation happening, it’s a different form and it’s supposedly safe but we’re way overexposed. 

We need to just do everything we can to mitigate.   If we’re cleaning up our diet, and we’re cleaning up our emotional mental health and we’re choosing to make all these healthy habits then, this is just one healthy habit that’s going to help us energetically and physically move in the direction of the best health possible.   I’m really excited that you came today and you shared everything that you’re sharing.   To complete our interview, are there any stories of success you want to leave us?  I know you get so much great feedback, you have a wonderful podcast, amazing website and all the links to everything The Robyn Openshaw that’s going to be on the show on today’s podcast at   Are there any stories of success since you have been educating us and educating your listeners and all the followers that you have on EMF?   Have you received any really great stories of success where you’re seeing that it’s making a difference?


[01:16:18]  Robyn Openshaw:  Yeah, I mean there’s the fact that I can sleep again.  There’s the fact that my son could focus in school again but we also just get stories all the time about how these very simple, small actions that people are taking, following the EMF action plan or jumping in to the video masterclass that I did with Dr. Libby Darnell and just putting these actions into place results in a lot of peace of mind but also energy gains.  It’s probably the most common thing that we’ve been told, is usually people would go to links of making these changes if they are suffering in some way, but it’s like a side benefit even if it’s not the thing that they were looking for by reducing the EMF in their energy field, in their home, in their work environment that they gain more energy.  So, I should mention that you said if we live near Chernobyl, we would take major action.  The thing is when Chernobyl happened, nobody knew yet what was going to be the consequence of it and when Fukushima happened, we didn’t know what was going to be the consequence of it.  If we knew when the Chernobyl disaster happened, what we knew 20 years later?  We would move.  

We would do anything in our power to get our children and ourselves, but we would get our families as far from Chernobyl as possible at any cost.  But you know?  Joe Mercola has said that he believes that the EMF proliferation, the massive high chaotic frequencies in our environment is the new second-hand smoking.  He believes that we will look back 20 years from now and we will see the amount of unmitigated EMF in our environment as more dangerous than we now look back and see second-hand smoking because you’re too young actually to have been there and been in restaurants.  I was a waitress, I put myself to college waitressing in the smoking section in a restaurant.  I sat on airplanes with smokers.  It’s unthinkable to millennials.  They’ve never seen people smoking in a public place but I would choose the smoking section over the others because smokers drink and drinkers tipped.  Here’s a thing, let’s don’t wait 20 years from now when they’re saying, “Well, that’s what happens to brain cancer because we didn’t do anything about EMF.  Or that’s what happens to all neurological diseases.  Is it 10X?” We’re already are seeing it, we already seeing the early signs, let’s mitigate it now.  If you’re going to do this, you’re going to be one in a thousand that’s even doing anything about it for their health.  Let’s get ahead of that curve because I really don’t think the effects of all these radiations are going to be good. 


[01:19:10]  Ashley James:  Our friends, our family might think we’re crazy.  They’re not on the bandwagon yet.  We’re early adopters and those who are listening are also early adopters and one day, they will all wake up and realize that we were right.  So, let’s be the early adopters.  I’d rather be the early adopter and be called crazy but be in better health because of it than be a sheeple and wait to get poisoned with everyone.  I like to say this on the show if you’ll look at the statistics, the cancer rates are almost a 1 in 2 or 1 in 3 between men and women are expected to have a cancer diagnosis in their lifetime now.  That 1 in 3 people is prediabetic.  That 70% of the adult population is on at least one prescription medication, heart disease is one of the leading causes of death.  It just goes on and on.  If you want to live like a statistic, if you want the end of your life to be a statistic, live like everyone else, eat what everyone else is eating and do what everyone else is doing.  Follow along with the mainstream media advice of health and do exactly what the majority of people are doing and you are going to end up like a statistic, of course, no one listening wants to be a statistic.  

We want to beat the odds, we want to all life to be hundred and jogging, running marathons at a hundred and five.  We want to be absolute optimal health.  We have to be the naysayer.  We have to go against the crowd.   We have to be early adaptors and we have to do exactly the opposite of what the majority of people are doing in order to not be a statistic and this is a key component to that.  So, thank you, Robyn, for coming on the show today and sharing with us some major health advice.   Go to to get Robyn’s free guide.   I’m really excited to hear back from the listeners, to know what you think.  Please comment in the Facebook group, Learn True Health Facebook group and let us know what you think about this as you implement Robyn’s actionable steps to lowering your EMF.  Robyn, thank you so much for coming on the show again.  I can’t wait to have you back when you’re ready to share with us how to mitigate 5G when it starts to infiltrate our neighborhoods.  


[01:21:33]  Robyn Openshaw:  Yeah, it’s my pleasure and it’s an honor to speak to you and to your audience, Ashley.  Thanks for having me. 


[01:21:39]  Ashley James:  Hello, true health seeker.  Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition and how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity? Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can outgrow their own business? Support people in their success? Do you love helping people? You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach.  I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrated Nutrition.  I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program and it really blew me away.  It was so amazing.  I learned over a hundred dietary theories.  I learned all about nutrition.  But if from the standpoint of how we can help people to shift their lives and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health, I definitely recommend you check them out.  You can google Institute for Integrated Nutrition or INN and give them a call or you can go to and you can receive a free module of their training to check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in.  Be sure to mention my name Ashley James in the Learn True Health Podcast because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible.  I highly recommend checking it out.  It really changed my life to be in their program and I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information.  

We need more health coaches.  In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field.  So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in care practical offices, doctor’s offices.  You can work in hospitals, you can work online through Skype and help people around the world.  You can become an author and go into the school system and help your local schools, shift their programs to help children be healthier.  You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success and their health goals.  There are so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach.  So, check out the INN.  Check out the Institute for Integrated Nutrition, mention my name, get the best deal.   Give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you.  Classes are starting soon.  The next round of classes is starting at the end of the month.  So, you’re going to want to call them now and check it out and if you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach?  Please, tell them about it. 

Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.  Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price?  For high-quality supplements and to talk to someone what supplements are best for you?  Go to and one of our fantastic True Health coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are the highest quality and the best price.  That’s  Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program. 

Get Connected With Robyn Openshaw:

Official Website

200 High Vibration Foods Shopping List

3-Video Course

Books by Robyn Openshaw

The Green Smoothies Diet

12 Steps To Whole Foods

Vibe: Discover Your Energetic Frequency for Health, Love & Success (FREE!)

May 31, 2019 and use coupon code LTH for 20% off!

"We sell two types of algae: spirulina (ENERGYbits) that provides energy, focus and satisfies hunger and chlorella (RECOVERYbits) which builds the immune system, removes toxins, strengthens the liver and helps prevent chronic illness like heart disease, cancer, and osteoporosis."


Debunking Algae Myths

In this podcast, you will discover the truths about the nutrient-dense algae Spirulina and Chlorella which would help debunk myths about them. Find out why these algae could be the answer to the world’s problem with food crisis.


[00:00:03] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health Podcast! I’m your host Ashley James. This is episode 357. I am so excited about today’s interview. We’re back on the show. Catharine Arnston was the founder of Energybits. We’ve had her on the show for three episodes before. So…here’s your fourth episode with us.


[00:00:27] Catharine Arnston: [laughing]


[00:00:28] Ashley James: Welcome back!


[00:00:28] Catharine Arnston: I’m a … frequent flyer with Ashley James. [laughs]


[00:00:31] Ashley James: Yes, you are. Frequent flyer for sure. Catherine was on episode 234265, and 266. I highly recommend going back and listening to those episodes to dive deeper into this topic because we’ve talked about how Chlorella and Spirulina, how these crops are made, the science, the safety studies behind it as a food source, the nutrient values of it, why they’re so beneficial in terms of how they work to detoxify the body and provide really readily available protein. Also, we talked about things like Vitamin K2. We dived into so many topics in those first three interviews. Today we want to do some major debunking [laughs].


[00:01:16] Catharine Arnston: [laughs]


[00:01:17] Ashley James: I’m so glad you came back on the show for this specifically. Dr. Andrew Weil who’s quite famous in the holistic health space and I really value a lot of the things he’s brought to the space.


[00:01:28] Catharine Arnston: Yes. We have a lot of respect for him.


[00:01:30] Ashley James: We do. We have a lot of respect for his work and in no way is this going to be bashing anyone. If you’re regulars, you know that I don’t do kind of fearmongering and bashing of other people. But we have to understand that when someone writes a very negative article about something, it does cause hysteria. And so, after he wrote an article about the dangers of toxic Chlorella and toxic algae and you don’t want to eat it because it’s so dangerous, there are so many toxins in it, and he kind of got people in the panic. And since algae in general, Chlorella and Spirulina, has been seen many years as a superfood, also now, people are afraid and I got a few emails, a few Facebook messages of listeners going… “You’ve been telling me that Chlorella’s been really healthy and now Andrew Weil saying it’s not, who do I believe?”

You know I’m really afraid and so I reached out to Catharine because of course you are a great expert in this field and Catharine said “Thank you for reaching out. Here’s all the research that proves that … his article is flawed. We were just discussing before I hit “record” is that I personally know a lot of heavy hitters in this whole holistic health space. People like, for example, Dr. Mercola. These people who write all the time and we think every article comes right from the doctor themselves but…


[00:03:01] Catharine Arnston: But… [laughs]


[00:03:02] Ashley James: But… [laughs]


[00:03:04] Catharine Arnston:   Not so… [laughs]


[00:03:04] Ashley James: The truth is most doctors, they have blogs, write articles, they are not actually the person writing, they have a whole team of people that they hire to be writers, to create content so that they can have more clicks and get more (you know) make more money and  seems like likely he had his writers do this whole article that is kind of set the whole holistic world in a  frenzy and like you said, you saw that recently, Andrew Weil posted another post about the benefits of algae, so he’s contradicting himself…


[00:03:39] Catharine Arnston: Yeah.


[00:03:39] Ashley James: …which just goes to show he has a team of writers, they’re all coming up with their own stuff ‘cos they have to create click baits so they want to put fear in you by making this like, “Oh, the dangers of algae and watch out and there are toxins in it and so then you click on it through his newsletter, through whatever you saw on Facebook and it gets the clicks


[00:03:56] Catharine Arnston: Yeah.


[00:03:55] Ashley James: Now he’s talking about the benefits of algae and they totally contradict each other. Catherine, I love that you are grounded in science. You have so many PubMed studies that you’re going to give us, all the links in those studies are going to be in the show in today’s podcast, everyone is going to be able to go and see the actual research. But you’re here to debunk it so first of all, for those who’ve never read the article that Dr. Andrew Weil or his staff wrote about toxins in algae, could you please illustrate what that article says and then what’s the actual truth?


[00:04:33] Catharine Arnston: Yeah. Well, as you said, I also have a lot of respect for Dr. Weil, and he was one of the first out there in holistic health, natural health but you have to realize that he runs a business enterprise and then this article where he is writing quite inflammatory comments about Spirulina and Chlorella that are incorrect, he also directs you to purchase his products to get the nutrients that would be found naturally in algae. You have to realize that everybody’s got something to sell you, so you have to read between the lines, obviously, I’m also selling algae and I’d like you to buy ours nonetheless…

His article was about the fact that there are toxins and there’s two terms that are often used: one is “mycotoxins“, neurotoxins, and something like called BMAA and they’re basically all toxins so, in the article where he said there were toxins in Spirulina, he was referring to a study that was done on an island in the Polynesian area, what they had done was they found that there were, the natives in this small island, a lot of them were having mental health issues and it turns out they were eating seeds from a particular plant and then they found out that there were Spirulina growing in the roots of the soil of these plants and so what they did was they tested the seeds of the plants. They did not test Spirulina. They did not test anything to do with Spirulina. They tested the seeds in the plants. And found that there were micro neurotoxins in the seeds. And from that, they made a huge leap of assumptions which in the scientific world, you can’t connect the dots here. Neurotoxins came from the Spirulina… well, actually, it wasn’t even Spirulina growing in the soil. It was blue-green algae.

Now, you have to realize, algae are like a category, a food category. Just like you have fruits and within fruits you have bananas and apples or you have vegetables, you have Kale and broccoli, so algae is of huge category, and within that you have four sub-categories, you have red algae and brown algae which are basically both seaweeds and then you have blue-green algae and green algae. One of the blue-green algae of probably 25, 000 out there, one of them is Spirulina. And one of the green algae is Chlorella. Now the reason why we sell  Spirulina  and Chlorella  and why these are the two that you’ll pretty much see for sale in health food stores is because they’re really the only two safe ones that you can eat without having any toxins of any kind and they’re harvested, they’re grown in freshwater just like maybe tomatoes, it’s called hydroponics.They’re cultivated crop and ours, we pride ourselves because I spent years trying to find the safest, purest company that would grow it for us. We grow it in freshwater tanks, triple-filtered mountain spring water, water’s tested every day, and we put binders when we dry them and we do [inaudible]… anyways, all of which is to say is that, to claim that toxins in any kind of Spirulina which is just one of many blue-green algae are  the equivalent of saying that you tested some water in the swamp and the water was poisonous so therefore don’t drink water.


[00:08:18] Ashley James: [laughing]


[00:08:19] Catharine Arnston: That’s how ridiculous the huge expanse of connecting the dots is. They were testing blue-green algae that existed in the soil in the roots of these plants, but they didn’t test the blue-green algae and it wasn’t Spirulina either, it was just a blue-green alga. And what I point out to people is that any algae whether it’s blue-green, green, doesn’t matter what it is, if it’s grown in a swamp, if it’s grown in the ocean, if it’s grown wild, in soils, it will be toxic. Just like you can’t drink water from the swamp or from your toilet or from a river if it’s near a polluted area. It is going to be polluted. Algae absorb whatever’s in the water so if you test something and any test that you see… any research if they’ve tested it and the algae are grown in any of the above swamps, ocean, polluted areas, yes, it will have toxins. Just like if you take a glass of water from the swamp, it will be toxic as well.

So, two things here, not only did they not use or test [inaudible 00:09:38] three things, they did not test Spirulina which is a specific strain, so that’s number one. And here is making this huge assumption that Spirulina’s at fault – it was not. It was some kind of blue-green algae but not Spirulina, number one. Number two, it wasn’t harvested blue-green algae, it was the equivalent of growing in the swamp and number three, they didn’t test the algae. They tested the seeds that were in the plants that the people were eating [laughs]


[00:10:08] Ashley James: The study that they did, was the conclusion that algae or Spirulina was dangerous or was it the conclusion of Andrew Weil’s writers?


[00:10:20] Catharine Arnston: Well, even in the study they indicated that there’s still a lot of uncertainty but his writers forgot to mention that or didn’t see it, because in so many studies, they’re quite long and they’re very scientific so it can be, maybe, buried, so that’s one thing, and as I mentioned, then he came out with another post that says I’m writing directly from the post now, he says “note however that Spirulina, a common variety of blue-green algae does not produce neurotoxins and was given a favorable safety rating after an extensive review by the United States pharmacology, pharmacopeia dietary supplements information expert committee in 2010 [laughs].


[00:11:12] Ashley James: So that’s a different post?


[00:11:14] Catharine Arnston: Completely different post from the same person. In one, he’s saying that that the writers used flawed science because they didn’t test Spirulina. They just tested the seeds from a plant that had blue-green algae growing in toxic soil [laughs]. It was a wrong assumption anyways and he completely reversed his position in another post. So that’s just stuff that he has used. I will provide you and your readers with additional PubMed documents. There’s one that says, from a couple of years ago, they studied to see if there was BMAA which is a neurotoxin. At this time, I believe they did study Spirulina and they concluded that there wasn’t any in there. And in fact, I reached out to the company, the lab that did the studies for this PubMed article and I’m hopefully going to be retaining them to specifically study our Spirulina and Chlorella, ours specifically Energy Bits and Recovery Bits to prove that there aren’t any in ours. This is a very complicated study and the second lab I found in the entire world that has the capability of detecting what’s called BMAA. And there’s another study that I have that I will share with you, where [I think 00:12:50] this is a number of years ago. They did samples again of blue-green algae, not Spirulina and definitely not Chlorella and they pulled them out of the Klamath Lake and the conclusions were… they did lab tests of the water in the lake and they found that there were toxins and neurotoxins in the lake and therefore any samples that came from the Klamath Lake… of the algae… also had toxins in them. But any algae that were grown agriculturally under pure growing conditions like ours did not. Do you start to see a pattern here?


[00:13:31] Ashley James: Right.


[00:13:31] Catharine Arnston: Anything that’s growing wild, you hear about the algae blooms and the toxins… Anything algae that are growing in the ocean, in the lake, in the swamp, anywhere other than closely monitored, carefully harvested in freshwater tanks like ours are, in clean water, will have toxins for sure. Just like if you pull a glass of water out of a dirty river, or a swamp or some polluted area there will be toxins in that too. Compare that to clean… reverse osmosis, or whatever source of water you have. You can’t just throw literally the baby out with the bathwater and say “Oh, we tested the swampy water and found toxins so you shouldn’t drink water.” That’s effectively what they’re saying.


[00:14:27] Ashley James: [laughs]


[00:14:28] Catharine Arnston: I mean, it’s almost ridiculous when you think about it but I don’t want to come down too hard on them because I will tell you: there are very few people in the world and definitely in America that understand algae and have studied algae as much as I have. And I did that because… your listeners know already if they’ve heard any of my previous podcast interviews with you or read anything about me, I wasn’t planning on building a company.

Ten years ago, my younger sister had breast cancer, her oncologist told her to change her diet to an alkaline diet. I helped her research what foods that were because of the phytonutrients and the chlorophyll that builds your immune system. She changed her diet. She went through chemo. She completely healed. I started learning about plant-based nutrition ten years ago when nobody was talking about it and decided it was very powerful, very compelling research and that I was going to try help people eat more plants and then I found out that people don’t want to work that hard, know their vegetables and so that when I discovered algae which is the most alkaline plant in the world and a multi-billion dollar industry in Asia and completely either misunderstood or completely just not known in America. I decided I would spend the rest of my life helping people understand algae and why it’s probably the safest, purest food that you can put in your body. People are very confused with algae or don’t know it and don’t know who to trust…


[00:15:58] Ashley James: Yeah.


[00:15:59] Catharine Arnston: And I want to build a big company so that we can have a positive impact in the world and help people around the world get access to algae because even United Nations says it’s the answer to world hunger and so endorses it. I don’t know if I mentioned earlier but even in January of this year, the United States government, the White House, and the Congress passed the very first Algae Agricultural Act because even they understood now that algae are the most nutrient-dense food in the world. It’s the most sustainable crop in the world and it’s all grown in Asia. So now, they’re trying to encourage farmers here to grow it by providing grants and subsidies. Everyone knows we’re going to have a problem providing proper food for the world and we have a problem already in America with our agricultural processes and basically there are no minerals left in the soil and using glyphosate is killing the soil and us, so we need better alternatives and algae is the answer. Algae is truly the answer. I am determined to help people understand this and who to trust what to read, how to understand the differences between the two of them and slowly more and more people will understand algae and it won’t be so weird and won’t be so confusing.


[00:17:18] Ashley James: [laughing]


[00:17:19] Catharine Arnston: You got to start somewhere. But it is upsetting to me because I know so much to have an article like with Dr. Weil published and I’m sure he didn’t even see it. But to have it published with incorrect information and to frighten people unnecessarily, I’m so happy that we can set the records straight. I can provide you and your listeners with the actual scientific documents. They can read them for themselves and they’ll come to the same conclusions that I did that there was a huge massive assumption that is basically flawed science. It’s very flawed so it’s wrong [laughs].


[00:18:03] Ashley James: I was very fascinated to hear in our first interview when you said that algae are the most studied food on the planet. That I believe you said that there were a hundred thousand studies combined – 60,000 of them studying Spirulina and by 40,000 studying Chlorella and that it’s been proven to be safe over the last fifty, sixty years. Right?


[00:18:31] Catharine Arnston: Over and over again. Well, in fact, I’m glad you mentioned this. I was invited two weeks ago to speak at a global algae conference.


[00:18:46] Ashley James: [laughing]


[00:18:46] Catharine Arnston: The company that put it on held algae research conferences in Europe for 8 years. And this is the first time they did one in America.


[00:18:53] Ashley James: That’s cool.


[00:18:57] Catharine Arnston: I was asked to speak on how to educate consumers of [inaudible 00:19:01] algae which is what I basically do all the time. When I was at the conference and I gave my talk, before I spoke, I asked everybody in the room to raise their hands if they were either a scientist, an agriculturist, an engineer, a production person… basically on the science side of algae. 99% of the hands went up. This is what happens all around the world. All this knowledge about science has stayed within the scientific community for the last 50 years. Scientists like to talk to other scientists. There’s no shortage of research and data and PubMed – whether it’s about athletic benefits or inflammation reduction or helping with brain functioning or reducing anything – whether it is blood pressure or heart disease, the science is all there.

Nobody [laughs], until me that I am aware of, has been able to dig in to the science and I probably read 2,000 reports at this point and tried to capture the key, sort of takeaways, and rewrite it so that the average consumer, or even practitioners… we were [inaudible 00:20:27] with chiropractors, doctors, functional medicine. They have to know a lot of stuff. Even they don’t have the time to really dig through the science and so I’m helping them get sort of the overview of why this stuff works and then if they want to learn more, I can give them the science. I’m the first person to be able to do that for people. It’s my pride and joy because I love science and I love helping people. I also do it visually. I design all of our packaging and all of our materials. I want people not to be afraid of algae, to understand that it is a remarkable plant that’s a gift from Mother Nature herself and the first life on earth 4 billion years ago. It’s something that has been here 4 billion years longer than we have and it’s still here. I feel that my path in life is to help people understand algae, why it’s good for them, why we need it and help them to understand, how to read between the lines when they see something like Dr. Weil writing about it and casting some confusion in the process.


[00:21:39] Ashley James: It also teaches us to not to be reactionary when we read one headline…


[00:21:45] Catharine Arnston: Right.


[00:21:45] Ashley James: …or one article. Or one article that states one study. We need to go deeper instead of having that immediate reaction of fear because that’s what the writer wanted us to have.


[00:21:56] Catharine Arnston: Exactly.


[00:21:56] Ashley James: They wanted us to… like you said that article then sells supplements. What they’re trying to do is get all the people that buy algae for their supplements, stop them from doing that and buy theirs instead.


[00:22:09] Catharine Arnston: Right.


[00:22:09] Ashley James: It’s a clickbait. Looking now at what you’ve said, it’s even more clear to me that Dr. Weil didn’t write that article because when he does do something, it’s thorough and it’s enlightened. I can definitely that this is just one of those circumstances where the writer of some big doctor has created further myths in the health world. Thank you for clearing up those myths.


[00:22:34] Catharine Arnston: Yeah. I wouldn’t fault him because he’s such a big guy and he has a magazine. He’s got a whole true food. I don’t know if you know: he runs, he’s a co-owner of True Food restaurants in the California area. He’s a busy guy. It’s no different than getting angry with your local doctor for not being able to do heart surgery. Algae is a specialty. There are so few people that understand it and can explain it as I can, not to pat myself on the back, but I’m doing this really as public service almost. He doesn’t have the time to devote algae… ultimate irony like in the next few years. He’s third selling [laughs] Spirulina or Chlorella.


[00:23:17] Ashley James: I bet.


[00:23:19] Catharine Arnston: That would be like touché. Right? [laughs]


[00:23:20] Ashley James: Right. [laughs]


[00:23:22] Catharine Arnston: Proof that the was wrong. [laughs]


[00:23:25] Ashley James: I got into Chlorella when I had Dr. Klinghardt on the show and we’ve talked about this in past interviews so we’re not going to get too into it.  But for those who haven’t listened to your other three interviews with me. When I got Dr. Klinghardt on the show, he’s been a doctor for forty years and he’s helped reverse autism and reverse cancer and autoimmune disease and things that people often go to miss the absolute last resort and they’ve been very sick. I’ve been to his clinic and I met the people fly in from around the world. His clinic is only ten or fifteen minutes away from where I live but people fly in around the world so I’ve been there a few times then I’ve got to meet the people that fly in for all kinds of conditions and one of the first things he has people do is start eating Chlorella immediately. Most of his protocols for most diseases is to eat Chlorella.


[00:24:19] Catharine Arnston: Right.


[00:24:21] Ashley James: 30 to 40 bits at a time. For those who’ve never had energy bits: they’re like the size of M&Ms, like…


[00:24:33] Catharine Arnston: Baby aspirin.


[00:24:34] Ashley James: Baby aspirin. I think the last time I said they’re like little aspirins, but I don’t want people to think that they’re pills that you swallow. It’s more like chewing.


[00:24:43] Catharine Arnston: Right. Yeah.


[00:24:44] Ashley James: It’s like if M&Ms were green and healthy for you, right?


[00:24:48] Catharine Arnston: Right.


[00:24:48] Ashley James: [laughs] I started off by… because I haven’t discovered you yet… I tried a different brand, one that Dr. Klinghardt I think partially owns, he was like “This one’s the best!” Right?


[00:25:04] Catharine Arnston: [laughs]


[00:25:06] Ashley James: I couldn’t stand up the flavor. It was fishy to me. I really didn’t like the flavor, but I wanted the health benefits, so I was doing different things to try to make it taste good. And then you and I met digitally, virtually online. I tried Energybits. You have Chlorella and Spirulina. Your Energybits are the Spirulina, your Recoverybits. is the website but when someone wants to buy the Chlorella, which I’ll explain in a sec., Chlorella is the Recoverybits. When I tried your Recoverybits, I was really surprised. They tasted good.


[00:25:44] Catharine Arnston: Yeah.


[00:25:44] Ashley James: And that they became almost like a… The first few times, I was like “Oh, wow! That was a different flavor. I was expecting not to like it and then I was like, “Wait, this is good.” And then my son, who was a toddler at that time, I think he was two, I was trying to do everything to get veggies into him, loved them and he still does. He loves the game of chewing them and making his tongue turn green. And we stick our tongues out at each other. The Chlorella and your Spirulina both taste really good to me.


[00:26:17] Catharine Arnston: Yeah.


[00:26:18] Ashley James: I have friends who make trail mixes out of them and they love to send me the recipe like walnuts and raisins or cran raisins and pistachios, dark chocolate… They send me these different recipes, but they come up with trail mix where they mix the Energybits in and I have friends who told me that they can’t believe it. They have a handful of your Energybits and they not only feel full, they actually [inaudible 00:26:43] more energy. And I noticed it, too. When it’s just yourself noticing something, you’re like “Maybe it’s a [inaudible 00:26:49]. You get five friends and they’re all like “Yes, I really feel it.” The Chlorella, you don’t have to chew them. You can throw them in your blender with water and make a smoothie out of it. Not a big deal if you don’t want to chew something that’s green. But the reason why Dr. Klinghardt tells everyone to do Chlorella every day. It’s that it’s a chelate, it’s a binder.


[00:27:11] Catharine Arnston: Yeah.


[00:27:12] Ashley James: It binds to heavy metals like mercury and aluminum. It even binds to toxins and pulls them out of your body.  And when you were talking about how algae act like a sponge, that if you grow algae in swamp water, that the algae are going to be toxic because it’s actually sucking the toxins out of the swamp water…


[00:27:30] Catharine Arnston: Right. [inaudible 00:27:30]


[00:27:33] Ashley James: Is there some sort of a seam mechanism that when we eat them, it sucks…


[00:27:37] Catharine Arnston: No.


[00:27:38] Ashley James: No?


[00:27:39] Catharine Arnston: No. I’m glad you mentioned that. Algae is a plant so it’s absorbing whatever, it’s a living organism, whatever’s in the medium that is in existence, so the medium is water. It’s just absorbing it. The way that it pulls out toxins is quite different. Just to make a distinction, Spirulina and we call ours Energybits is because Spirulina gives you energy. It satisfies your hunger and gets you focused. It has no cellulose wall because technically, it’s a bacterium like I mentioned it gets absorbed really quickly. Chlorella is the only one…Spirulina has a lot of chlorophyll and is used for cleansing, but it is not a detoxer. Chlorella is a detoxing agent, is a chelator because unlike Spirulina, it has no cellulose wall. Chlorella has the hardest cellulose wall in the plant kingdom, so hard that actually it has to be cracked for production or it wouldn’t absorb the nutrients. It’s that hard cellulose wall that attaches to toxins in your body. It doesn’t matter whether it’s lead, mercury, aluminum, alcohol, lactic acid, radiation – it just knows what is inappropriate in your body, and it attaches it and pulls it out of your body. Quite different from when it’s just sitting in the water, it just absorbs as a growing organism absorbs whatever’s in the water but the mechanism by which it pulls out toxins is different. It has nothing to do with the absorption, the attachment to the toxins.

A really important thing to note is that not only Chlorella pulls out toxins because of this attachment capability of its cellular wall, but it also has the highest concentration of chlorophyll in the world. That’s why it’s called Chlorella. It’s got a thousand times more than greens, 25 times more chlorophyll than even liquid chlorophyll. The reason why I want to mention this is because only about 10% of chlorophyll is absorbed in your stomach. The rest of it stays in your entire digestive tract so it travels through your liver and all the way down to your colon. Everything that you’re going to be reading, if you’re not already reading, is all about how you have to maintain the health of your cells, your cell walls, your mitochondria, and your liver. Your liver is where the action starts, and so chlorophyll cleanses all those. It cleanses your liver. Because it’s got this capability to absorb carcinogens and it’s because it’s a fat-based pigment, it’s very cleansing to the cell walls and because chlorophyll is a fat-based pigment, it heals the cell wall.

I tell people “If you don’t have fats in your diet, your cell walls get really brittle and dysfunctional and so they can’t let nutrients in, or toxins out. It’s like having a dirty window because you can’t let the sun in, and you can’t see out. Chlorophyll is effectively like window washers. It’s cleaning your cell walls so that nutrients can get in, and toxins can get out which, of course, facilitates healthy mitochondria. Chlorella has that two punch; it’s got that high-cellulose wall that pulls toxins and it’s got the highest chlorophyll in the world. It also has other wonderful [inaudible 00:31:10] bits that we can talk about, a little bit like K2 which pulls out calcium from your blood vessels and puts it into your bones and prevents heart disease and prevents osteoporosis. It has the highest concentration of RNA and DNA in the world which, as you age, your cells get damaged, so this helps your cells to go back healthier. It’s quite a remarkable plant of the plant kingdom. It’s great that you mentioned that when you tasted Dr. Klinghardt’s and compared it to ours. You’d think that something like algae that are grown in water, it would be the same wherever you grow it but it’s not. It’s like wine.


[00:31:54] Ashley James: [laughing]


[00:31:55] Catharine Arnston: I like Sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand. I am very fascinated with my Sauvignon Blancs. I have tried them from Sancerres from Italy, I’ve tried Sauvignon Blancs from California. Nothing matches that fabulous fruity flavor from the Marlborough area in New Zealand. Algae is the same way. In Hawaii, it’s really mild. In India, algae is very pungent like horse manure, the stuff from China, who knows what’s in there, that’s where all the cheap stuff comes from, Japan doesn’t grow Spirulina and we don’t know whether there’s radiation in the water so it really depends on what country you get the algae from and which company is growing it for you, how rigorous their growing mechanisms are. To ensure that you’re getting something that’s really pure, fresh, and clean, and nutrient-dense because there’s also a different strain of algae just like there are different types of beef. We can have Kobe beef, or we can have, I don’t know what they call it, Mcdonald’s hamburger beef.


[00:33:01] Ashley James: [laughs] It’s soy lent green.


[00:33:04] Catharine Arnston: Yeah, so there’s a lot of variety and that’s part of what people need to understand. The source that you use is 99% of everything. You could try a cheap algae, which may come in a tablet and eat it, or you can try ours and I’m so glad that you’re chewing yours and in fact, I love them so much and I started about six months ago eating them with almonds or eating them with macadamia and then I started with even having them with just sea salt, or almonds, or macadamias, you’re in for a treat.

We’re hoping to do trail mixes next year with all those, or in fact, we’re working with the spa community and we’re putting together like an algae sampler package for them to offer to their clients. Just like they have a granola-tasting bar. We’re going to give them an algae-tasting bar. You can get some Chlorella, add in some almonds or some shaved coconut chips or banana chips. Man, now, you’re getting a snack that’s healthy for you. It’s truly a snack. This stuff is healing. We’re in such a toxic world that we’ve got to get something started in our body to start pulling all those metals out of our brain, our liver, and everywhere else. I am very proud of our Chlorella. I love our Spirulina, too. It’s like having children: “Yeah, I love you, too. I love you. too.”


[00:34:34] Ashley James: [laughing]


[00:34:36] Catharine Arnston: “Don’t worry, Mama loves you.” [laughs] Your listeners have children, so you cannot show anybody too much favoritism because someone is going to get really upset so Spirulina has its place. Most would find it a tougher flavor to enjoy but it is totally chewable but the Chlorella, I tell you, is a game-changer. I don’t think I can live without it quite honestly. It’s my favorite food in the whole world.


[00:35:03] Ashley James: Well, I am a big fan, too. Dr. Kinghardt says to take your Chlorella before you get in the sauna or before you do something that aids in detoxification as well because it will further give you the benefits. When I think I already know everything there is to know, you always surprise me…


[00:35:23] Catharine Arnston: [laughs]


[00:35:24] Ashley James: …and bring in more information. That was so cool. I didn’t really know that Chlorella was fat-soluble so that it’s aiding in the liver so much more because of that which is really…


[00:35:38] Catharine Arnston: Yeah.


[00:35:40] Ashley James: Scientists are using algae now in oil spills to soak up oil spills to break apart or digest oil spills or even finding out ways of digesting plastic. There are so many applications but the application that they’ve been researching for well over 50 years, has been how to end world hunger. You’ve talked about it before, Spirulina: why it’s so popular to study it. It’s a crop that grows really fast. We have to have sunlight and very clean water. Last time I had you on episode 266, you talked about the potential for growth in the United States and I think that it was sort of in talks in the Senate or in the House or somewhere in D.C. It was getting it passed.


[00:36:38] Catharine Arnston: Yup. It’s getting passed now.


[00:36:39] Ashley James: That’s very exciting.


[00:36:40] Catharine Arnston: And I just want to point out that CBD oil now is like everywhere.


[00:36:46] Ashley James: Right.


[00:36:47] Catharine Arnston: It had been under the radar, under current new development for a probably a decade but it wasn’t until 2018 farm bill that legalized CBD oil that as a result of that farm bill, that’s when CBD oil industry exploded. It’s taking off and someone said to me that they felt that humping algae were the answers to everything, and I said “Oh, I think I have to agree [inaudible 00:37:15] that one. The farm bills of 2018 are what spurred the CBD oil growth and the farm bill this year that includes the algae agricultural act has already spurring interests in algae here in America. It’s going to take a little while to kick in but trust me, algae is probably going to be the most important  crop of the 24th century because it has all the nutrients and I point out that: farmers that grow corn, or weed, or so many are selling crops for us that are not that really healthy for us and require a lot of water mass. Did you know that 80% of the freshwater in our aquifers isn’t used by consumers? It’s for agricultural purposes.


[00:38:06] Ashley James: It’s actually for making, most of it, feed for animals. So why not cut out the middleman and just eat plants?


[00:38:16] Catharine Arnston: Yeah, exactly, it’s destroying the plants, destroying our aquifers and you get one crop a year. You grow your corn; you get one crappy crop a year. With algae, it takes months to grow and a couple of weeks to dry so you can get 10-12 crops a year on the same amount of soil. And requires a third of the water. There’s no carbon footprint. There’s no garbage, there’s nothing. You can reuse the water. It can grow on arable land. You can grow these things on deserts as long as there’s sunlight and a really great clean source of water so that’s why the government sat up and took notice. They know all about nutrition. They know that [inaudible 00:39:09] all the science about it. They know that it’s growing in other countries. They realized they can get some really great agricultural crops from it and so they’re really encouraging farmers to grow. I certainly hope to grow it in America. It could be well for 5 or 10 years.

When I was in that algae conference, they pointed out some of the folks, the people from Florida, and they pointed out that in Florida, the orange groves were hit by some sort of light of some kind. There’s a lot of lands now available to grow crops. They can’t grow the oranges any longer. I’d always assume we would grow it in [Nevada 00:39:51] or maybe Southern California but I’m going to circle back and take a look at Florida. You’ll never know, right?


[00:39:59] Ashley James: You just want to make sure wherever your growing is far from where people are spraying…


[00:40:05] Catharine Arnston: Yeah.


[00:40:06] Ashley James: …of crops and spraying pesticides. Like in Texas, there’s just so much spraying of mosquitoes and things like that.


[00:40:14] Catharine Arnston: I know. You need to be really careful. Yeah.


[00:40:16] Ashley James: I’m so excited about the amount of readily absorbed protein that’s in Spirulina. It is the food that people can live off. Right? Someone can buy a bunch of packs of your energy bits and use them as emergency storable food.


[00:40:34:05] Catharine Arnston: Yeah. There’s this term for the people that think the world is going to end…


[00:40:40:08] Ashley James: “Preppers.”


[00:40:41:13] Catharine Arnston: Preppers. Yeah. They do buy a lot of ours because we do have to put an expiry date on the bag as required by FDA but literally it never goes bad. You can have this stuff for 20 years and as long as you keep in the pack, it doesn’t have to be refrigerated. Nothing. It’s there. A funny side now is that LGLs will never die if their growing conditions deteriorate, it just goes into hibernation until the sun comes back or the water conditions come back. There was an article, I think in National Geographic about some explorers that were in the arctic circle. They took a little chip of glacier from like three billion years ago and apparently, there are a few algae attached to it, so they brought it back and put it in a petri dish and put some water on it. This three-billion-year-old piece of algae started growing.


[00:41:34:04] Ashley James: That’s so cool.


[00:41:35:23] Catharine Arnston: Like seriously. “A” – it lasts forever, and “B” – the protein in both Spirulina or Chlorella is already in amino acid form. When you eat animal protein, your body has to break it down to amino before it can be absorbed. It can take up to three days for that process to happen if you don’t have the factors and co-factors, you may end up only absorbing 10%. So let’s say 50 grams of chicken for dinner; within a couple of days, you may have only absorbed 5 grams of a [deci 00:42:11:12] amino acids. With algae, because the species is Spirulina because the proteins are already in amino acid form. Your body can absorb it. It gets 99% absorbed. It’s called “bioavailable” within minutes. One serving of our tablets, either Spirulina or Chlorella, gives you 5 grams of protein. So 5 grams of a single serving of our algae tablets is really the equivalent to your body as 50 grams of animal protein because you end up in many cases only with 5 grams.

Obviously, for vegans, that’s really important because they’re always looking for more high protein sources and I also want to point out, we’re talking about Spirulina, it has the nutrient profile specifically on the amino acid side that’s almost identical to mother’s breast milk. it’s all the same amino acids in the same proportions. It also something called “GLA” which is an essential fatty acid that’s really important for your brain. And the only place that has more GLA is mother’s breast milk. And the reason…


[00:43:22:29] Ashley James: Wow.


[00:43:23:21] Catharine Arnston:  …why is because for baby’s brains to double, triple in size within the first year or two after birth. It’s very tough to get mother’s breast milk after you age, too.


[00:43:34:17] Ashley James: [laughs]


[00:43:36:25] Catharine Arnston: If you want the same benefits as mother’s breast milk, Spirulina is your answer. And of course, you get all the other benefits like 40 other vitamins and minerals you don’t find in mother’s breast milk. It’s pretty cool.


[00:43:51.16] Ashley James: I love it. Yeah. I like that you brought up that Chlorella, like the word “Chlorella” you have to think of the chlorophyll because I’ve drunk liquid chlorophyll before. They usually…


[00:44:02:26] Catharine Arnston: Yeah.


[00:44:02:25] Ashley James:  …buy it with like, it has peppermint oil [inaudible 00:44:05.25] so it’s like “Mmm, it’s minty.” I learn this like, I don’t know in the 90s, that if you drink chlorophyll that your poop wouldn’t smell; that your gas wouldn’t smell. For people who have really bad digestive problems, bad-smelling gas or maybe they’re just going through something, right?


[00:44:23:07] Catharine Arnston: Yeah.


[00:44:23:07] Ashley James: They’re trying to dial in their own diet, but they’ve got stuff going on, that drinking liquid chlorophyll will help neutralize. It’s like a deodorant for your gut because it’s neutralizing your toxins.


[00:44:34:19] Catharine Arnston: Right.


[00:44:35:24] Ashley James: I remember, I think I was a teenager, drinking going like “My poop doesn’t smell [inaudible 00:44:38:28] and it also turns your poop green which is great for St. Patrick’s Day. Like “what’s going on down there?”


[00:44:46:21] Catharine Arnston: Right. Right. [laughs]


[00:44:46:01] Ashley James: I was just like “This is the coolest thing in the world. How did they not know about this? And what you’re saying is that when you eat your Chlorella, your Recoverybits, you’re getting way more chlorophyll so it’s more cost-effective because I think those bottles of good liquid chlorophyll can be quite expensive. You’re saying you’re getting way more [00:45:11.16] by getting your Recoverybits, your Chlorella. And then if someone wants to make it liquid, they can throw it in a blender with some water…


[00:45:20:13] Catharine Arnston: Yeah.


[00:45:20:29] Ashley James: Make a smoothie or whatever or chew them up.


[00:45:23:25] Catharine Arnston: People who get wheatgrass shots… it has 25 times more than wheatgrass.


[00:45:28:01] Ashley James: Wow.


[00:45:29:05] Catharine Arnston: Liquid chlorophyll is made from alfalfa sprouts. There’s no comparison. I call it efficient nutrition because it has such high concentrated amounts. I mentioned this previously and I’ll mention it again because it has always stunned me… Anybody’s welcome to go online and check this out because it’s the truth. The chemical composition of your blood, your hemoglobin is identical to chlorophyll with the exception of one atom; in your blood. there’s an iron atom in the middle and chlorophyll has to make this amount identical.

I tell people “It’s got to be a tip-off about how important chlorophyll is to your body and where [inaudible 00:46:11.13] ran out of blood for transfusions for the injury they used to give them liquid chlorophyll because it would help them heal as fast as a blood transfusion. Chlorophyll builds your blood. End of story. It builds everything. If you want to get chlorophyll, go ahead and have salads, I love salads, but you’re not going to get much chlorophyll out of it because our soils are so damaged. We really are eating for entertainment now.


[00:46:36:08] Ashley James: [laughs]


[00:46:38:23] Catharine Arnston: If you really want nutrition, you’ve got to go to places like algae because there’s nowhere else that’s going to give you the nutrient value. Chlorella, which we call our Recoverybits because it helps you recover health. Hands down, it’s scientifically documented with the highest concentration of chlorophyll as well as other things. It is pretty amazing. If there are any moms listening and can’t get their kids to eat vegetables, just give them a few tablets a day and their chlorophyll needs will certainly be met. Phytonutrient needs will be met, and probably their protein so don’t worry [laughs].


[00:47:17:10] Ashley James: Right. Go listen to the previous episodes. I don’t want to redo the whole story because for those who have heard it, they want to hear it again. My son, the first time I tried to get him to eat, he was about two years old. I tried to get him to eat the Energybits. He was giving me a look like because he’s not going to eat anything green. He just went through that face, it was like: “I don’t want any vegetables with green. He was eating vegetables yesterday and I was not. I played the game right: I chew them and stick my tongue out and my tongue was green. He’s like “Oh, that is cool.” You can…


[00:47:53:00] Catharine Arnston: [laughing]


[00:47:55:08] Ashley James:  …get kids to like it. And then he…


[00:47:56:09] Catharine Arnston: Yeah.


[00:47:57:05] Ashley James: …calls them green crackers or green cookies, “Can I have green crackers?” because they crunch like crackers. He loves them as a snack.


[00:48:09:17] Catharine Arnston: Yeah. Pets love them, too, by the way [laughs].


[00:48:11:16] Ashley James: Oh, I’ve got to try that. The Chlorella, or Spirulina, or both?


[00:48:17:19] Catharine Arnston: Yeah. Either one. Sometimes, they show a preference for one or the other. The animals are so smart. They know what’ good for them. A guy, who has been a customer for a while, sent me an email. It was a couple of years ago. He’s a hiker. He went out backpacking. His camp was raided one night by a couple of big black bears so he took off, and when he came back, his bag is full of supplements – they were all still there but the bags of Energybits and Recoveybits, he says, were ripped open and licked clean [laughs].


[00:48:47:08] Ashley James: [laughing]


[00:48:50:13] Catharine Arnston: Bears know what’s good for them. Right? [laughs]


[00:48:51:24] Ashley James: Oh. That is too funny.


[00:48:53:18] Catharine Arnston: I laughed too hard when I read that one.


[00:48:57:05] Ashley James: That is too funny.


[00:48:57:26] Catharine Arnston: Even at the expense of treatment for your pets, but hey, we want them to be healthy as well. it’s really good for them.


[00:49:05:02] Ashley James:  Last time, we spoke… you had a customer, right? It brought tears to my eyes. That she is a young mother with young kids and going through chemotherapy and very ill. Do you have any updates on her story?


[00:49:23:10] Catharine Arnston: I don’t. In fact, I was thinking about that the other day. I wanted to find out and this is a woman who had been sick for about 8 months, bed-ridden, and somebody who was a customer of ours. I sent her a couple of bags, one of Energybits and one of Recovery. We subsequently gifted her some. Within a week, he was able to get out of bed and she tried everything. Her children were so relieved and made sure mommy took her green medicine.


[00:49:52:03] Ashley James: [laughs]


[00:49:53:16] Catharine Arnston: We continue to get people telling us allergies have gone away. They don’t have to take their allergy medication. It’s like a natural reduction of the anti-histamine. We’ve had people tell us that they don’t need their pressuremedication any longer. I always urge people to talk to your doctor about any kind of decrease in any medications that you’re having, perhaps you can start taking some of the algae while you’re taking whatever you’re doing and see how you’re feeling.


[00:50:29:23] Ashley James: Right.


[00:50:31:11] Catharine Arnston: There’s this one customer, when I [tripped in 00:50:31.09], she forgot her meds and so she just doubled up on her Spirulina and after her 10-day trip she came back and she realized, she didn’t need them anymore. She never continued to take them.

Another gentleman who was on a restricted income, he’s retired, he emails us all the time because, I think he’s about 70, and all his friends have either heart disease, cancer, [inaudible 00:50:57.25] sick. He says “I don’t take any [inaudible 00:50:59.04] except your algae and I try to get them to take it because I feel great and I don’t even have the expense of health insurance I used to have. It keeps him healthy. He doesn’t have to take drugs. He doesn’t have to spend a lot of money on other health care issues. I’m just proud of what else it does for people [laughs].


[00:51:24:22] Ashley James: Awesome. It’s so cool.


[00:51:26:04] Catharine Arnston: Yeah. I know a lot of your listeners are women and I did want to see if we could talk about osteoporosis, heart disease. I don’t think we covered that in the other interviews.


[00:51:38:09] Ashley James: Let’s do it. We did talk about K2. Let’s dive into osteoporosis…


[00:51:42:01] Catharine Arnston: Okay.


[00:51:42:13] Ashley James: …and heart diseases and how we can use algae to support our bodies and not [inaudible 00:51:47.08] diseases.


[00:51:50.07] Catharine Arnston: The K2 bits, I am not sure if many people are aware of what K2 is. It’s a vitamin that was recently discovered 25 years ago and it’s related to K1 but it’s as different as night and day between K1. K1 is found in foods that are green: kale, spinach. What it does is that it helps your blood coagulate so it’s important. But K2, the only source of K2 is in grass-fed animal protein or frankly algae especially the Chlorella algae. You can also get it in a dish called “Natto” which nobody eats as a Japanese dish. You say “Why is it in grass-fed animal protein? Here’s why. Animals have bacteria in their gut that allows them to convert K1 which is in green things like grass and Kale. It allows them to convert K1 into K2. As we humans, eat any grass-fed protein whether it’s dairy, or beef, or whatever, we absorbed the K2 because they have that conversion. The problem is, back in the 60s and 70s, all the cows and chickens and everything was taken off the pastures where they were had previously been chewing happily on green grass and they were moved into enclosures and fed corn which has no green in it which is very acidic which also causes stomach distresses. That’s where you get all the cow issues [inaudible 00:53:28.14].

The supply of K2 from our diet basically disappeared completely. Interestingly, at the same time that that happened, the rise in heart disease had escalated. Ax exact mirror of these two incidences. The medical physicians, heart specialists, are now realizing that one of the main causes of heart disease is too much calcium in your blood vessels which basically causes them to get rigid and calcify. The blood vessel builds up with all the calcium there, which shouldn’t be there, it’s immobile, it can cause some fractures that lead to stroke. “Why is the calcium there?” “How did the calcium get in your blood vessels. All of us certainly clean our house where it’s like: “Who put the shoes there?” “That’s not supposed to be there?”


[00:54:24.03] Ashley James: [laughs]


[00:54:25.10] Catharine Arnston: [laughs] There’s a place for those. Well, your body needs to be told that calcium is not supposed to be in the blood vessels. It’s supposed to be in your bones. Without K2, that’s where it goes. In fact, without K2, calcium does not go to your bones. It goes to your soft tissue. This is your blood vessels. This is your skin, your organs, your brain. Basically, anywhere but your bones. There’s some protein matrix in the Vitamin K2 that does two things: it moves the calcium out of soft tissue and puts it into your bones and at the same time, it traps calcium into your bones and teeth. By adding K2 in your diet, you’re getting multiple benefits: you’re helping to prevent heart disease and also prevent problems with your organs. Your kidney stones are calcification. It’s too much calcium gathered in your kidneys. You get K2, boom, those are gone.

They’re realizing Alzheimer’s partly result of again of calcification in the brain. K2 is very, very important. Yet, there are very few foods that you can find it in. People are taking supplements, but they don’t behave the same way or as effective as K2 that you find in food. Any time that you get a nutrient in food, it’s always better for your body. It will always perform better. I’ve also read K2 has complications to it, there are different versions, different flavors I guess that you want to call it.

There’s one called M4 which is what you find in algae, which you find in food, apparently, that’s the only version of K2 that the brain can absorb. In your supplements, there’s always something called M7. I’m not sure if that’s going to be helping prevent Alzheimer’s. K2 is a very important piece of one of the many benefits of the algae particularly the Chlorella. Chlorella has twice as much K2 as Spirulina. Just to show you sort of comparisons of food that: how much K2 is in food groups. If you have 100 grams of Chlorella, it has what you call 240 mcg (240 mcg in a hundred grams of Chlorella) Compare that to milk, that’s one. One mcg.


[00:57:04.07] Ashley James: No. 


[00:57:05.27] Catharine Arnston: Beef. Again. One. Salami, I don’t why it’s got 9. Egg yolks a whopping 15. 15 compared to 240 in Chlorella. There really isn’t any comparison. If you want the efficiencies ok K2 and you want it from food, you really need to get it from something like Chlorella. If you’re vegan, you don’t want to be eating your grass-fed proteins.


[00:57:34.13] Ashley James: Right.


[00:57:36.15] Catharine Arnston: I’m very proud of the fact that has high K2.


[00:57:40.13] Ashley James:  Man, I got to get a bag for my mother in law.


[00:57:45.00] Catharine Arnston:  Yeah. It’s really amazing. The reason I mentioned this is because people don’t really realize that heart disease is a very big issue for women and so osteoporosis. In osteoporosis what happens is that: your bones get brittle and porous. The reason they’re becoming brittle and porous because in your early years your bones are being built. Your bones store minerals like calcium. But they also store lots of minerals. But after the age of 40, rather than building up your bones, you’re starting to lose bone structure. It’s so important as you age that you maintain your bone structure to prevent this porousness. One of the reasons why bones get porous is because we have acidic foods in our diet. Emotions and stress can cause acidity in your blood or even if you over-exercise because you throw out lactic acid – that makes your blood acidic. Your blood needs to maintain a pH level of 7.34. If you eat too much acidic food like dairy or processed food or even meat or eggs, your body and your blood know that it needs to neutralize that immediately or you would die. What it does is it pulls out the minerals that are stored in your bones to immediately dilute the acidity of your blood to bring it back to that pH 7.34. If you do that, over and over again, day in, day out, month in, month out: you’re pulling critical minerals out of your bones which contributes to porousness and osteoporosis and fragility of your bones.

Two things that are so important for bone health is weight-bearing exercise continue to build your bones and ensuring you have proper K2 to make sure your calcium is being absorbed. Make sure your diet is healthy so that you’re not extracting those minerals. It’s like overdrawing at a bank account. Right? You don’t want to overdraw it too many times. You don’t want any of those problems. I’ very happy that algae have all those minerals: magnesium, potassium, calcium. Anything that your bones need. In addition to K2, it’s like a package deal. It’s a one-stop-shop. It’s food. It’s not processed.

It’s really very helpful, particularly for women. 80% of osteoporosis patients are women. Over the age of 50, it’s a real problem. I just wanted to be sure that… women are particularly a target for this because our bones are smaller than men’s. They’re frailer from the beginning. They’re thinner. Our bone structure is just different. That’s why men don’t have as much of a problem although it still hits men. But women are, particularly at risk.


[01:01:11.12] Ashley James: What started for you to have the light of moment? Have you wanted to create Energybits? Was that your sister was told by her oncologist in Canada that she should go in an alkaline diet because it was better for recovery from cancer…


[01:01:31.07] Catharine Arnston: Correct.


[01:01:32.04] Ashley James: …and also prevention? It’s a healthier diet for the lifestyle to help the body because, in an alkaline state, the body doesn’t create disease in it. In an acidic state, diseases are rampant for many reasons. You saw the algae, Chlorella and Spirulina, have an alkalizing effect in the body because they readily absorb nutrients the body uses to bring the body back to balance. It has vitamins and minerals. It also has the chelator effect that takes out the toxins. There are many reasons why Chlorella and Spirulina help the body come back in the balance. I had a guest send me some pH test strips. I’ll make sure the link is in the show notes. These test strips are very affordable. They’re like 5 bucks or something. They’re very cool. You can use them both for urine and for saliva. She explained this is Kellyann from She has a whole ionic foot detox system.


[01:02:46.01] Catharine Arnston: Oh, we’ve spoken. I’ve spoken to her. She’s terrific.


[01:02:48.22] Ashley James: Right. Yeah.


[01:02:49.11] Catharine Arnston: She’s a [Victoria 01:02:49.13].


[01:02:52.00] Ashley James: [inaudible 01:02:52.00] me. Yeah. She talks about how testing your pH is…. test yourself once a week. It’s like a self-check-in. I had a [inaudible 01:03:03.13] one of my mentors. He wrote a book all about teaching people how to do their own physicals. If you do your own sort-of physicals throughout the year, it’s not like a big surprise when you see your doctor and find out you’ve been going on the wrong path for the whole year. Like “Wow, your blabs are really looking bad. We need to like to make some changes. Well, if you’ve been doing your own check-in with yourself when it’s still a whisper. Right? Check-in with yourself: “Oh, wow, my pH is awfully [inaudible 01:03:29.11], what’s going on? I need to adjust my diet. I have to increase my greens. I need to get more sleep. Drink more water. We just need to look.

If we tested something simple like tester pH and you can test your saliva very easily. Testing your urine’s, a little bit different because in the morning you want it to be acidic because the kidneys were concentrating it and pulling all the stuff. But then you want to see if you tested your urine throughout the day, you would see the acidity come down. You don’t want it to be more acidic in the afternoon that it was first thing in the morning. Then that’s definitely a sign that there is a problem. What’s easier is just testing your saliva.  If you’re in those good rangers, the nice green, dark green, 7 or 7.5 or 8, then that’s great. Good. I’ve walked around with these test strips, some of my friends and family, and I have been shocked. I’m always alkaline, ” I was like patting myself in the back, and then my husband came in who has more alkaline than me.


[01:04:30.20] Catharine Arnston: [laughing]


[01:04:33.21] Ashley James: He eats like a pound of blueberries a day. He gets those antioxidants. I go to friends and family and like they’re clearly acidic. I’ve actually seen people be able to get their test strips to move into the alkaline state. It’s just a way that we show ourselves that we’re moving the right direction. If we could take our blood pressure once a week, take our glucometer reading once a week, just to check in: “what’s going on?” “How am I doing?” “Am I in the right direction or in the wrong direction? Just like people get in the scale, measure themselves, and push themselves to the gym and see like: “Am I getting better or worse?” It just gives us a good reading.

I would love to hear from the listeners. I have a ton of listeners that buy the Energybits because I’ve heard from so many listeners. You. You’ve heard from so many of my listeners as well. I’d love to hear if any listeners have played with the test strips and have seen if using their Chlorella and Spirulina have seen their pH get better. Catharine, have you seen that in your many years working?


[01:05:51.22] Catharine Arnston: Yeah. I don’t do the pH testing myself. However, what I will say, is more like great things about pH testing if you can do it. It brings you back to focus on your own body. I think what’s happened in the last 50, maybe 100, years is we handed over responsibility for our health to anybody in the white jacket. They don’t have the time to understand what’s really going in their bodies. They’re so focused on drugs to mask whatever condition is causing you some distress. You don’t want to mask a condition. You want to correct the condition [laughs]. The fact that you’re doing some testing forces you to slowly reorient your focus on yourself and just like having a great sleep, you know when you feel good. You know when you take our algae that it’s good for you. You just feel better. The more that you can tune in to your own health and whether it’s your test strips or anything, I can promise you the more empowered you will become emotionally, spiritually. You will take back the responsibility to treat yourself well. Because you’ll start to treat your body like something that deserves respect as it does.

It’s there to support you but if you give it foods that are just temporarily exciting like white bread or something, or maybe a pastry. Sure, it’s a minute or two of great satisfaction, and then you get like two days’ worth of trying your body struggling, trying to get rid of the unhealthy components that it’s now faced to try to digest and absorb and whatever. Over time, you start realizing, “I think I’d rather feel better for two days than feeling great for a minute.”  You start to evolve into a much more thoughtful, present individual and only seek out foods, people situations, emotions that make you feel better. It’s a much better way to be. I like any kind of testing that anyone can do if nothing else. It changes the focus inward. It makes you look inward and gives you the tools to feel empowered to know that yes, you can make a difference in your health. Yes, you can. Do not accept the standard drugs, surgery options. Those may be necessary but there could be alternatives less invasive and more natural. That would be my sort-of final word on that [laughs].


[01:08:48.14] Ashley James: [laughs] Wonderful. For those listeners who don’t know Catharine gives us a very generous discount by using “LTH” as in Learn True Health on our website. Energybits we get 20% off. Thank you so much. That actually makes your price incredibly competitive with those very cheap quality ones out there. The ones on Amazon made in China that kind of thing which I would never recommend and then the ones that say they’re really healthier sold by other doctors. Then, you give us our discount – your taste is better, made with better quality, you have third-party testing, you do triple filter for your water. There’s clearly a quality difference. You clearly are like the Ferrari algae [laughs].


[01:09:48.14] Catharine Arnston: [laughs] I like that. I have never thought of it that way.


[01:09:53.11] Ashley James: Never getting it for, I don’t know, Toyota prices. For the price of a Honda, you can get a Ferrari. That’s awesome. I’m a big, big, big fan of Energybits. Just to clarify, the Chlorella which gives us the wonderful benefits of detoxification has the nutrients, has the chlorophyll in it, that’s called “Recoverbits.” So when you go to, you find the Recoverybits and then you put it in the coupon code “LTH for 20% off” for those who want the energy from Spirulina, and the protein and also the other nutrients we talked about [inaudible 01:10:33.05] the Energybits, you do have a separate bag called “Beautybits” and it’s the exact same thing, so not to be confused. I like your story behind this you told before…


[01:10:44.25] Catharine Arnston: [laughs]


[01:10:45.04] Ashley James: I think it’s so funny that somewhere… because they carry it in their purse, or they’ll carry it in their gym bag and they just preferred to have something more feminine, so they wanted the pink bags. For those who love pink, to look really cute, you can buy Beautybits, it’s the exact, same as Energybits. What a different package. What else I like about your bags is that every bit comes with tin, so you don’t have to carry the whole bag around. You can just feel up your tin with your day’s amount of like 40 little M&M-sized bits and then you can carry that in your purse, or your car, or whatever. It’s always a great snack to have in the car when the kids or the husband or you are hungry in the car and you’re like: “Oh, I don’t want to go to a drive-thru because I don’t eat that stuff anymore. I don’t want to feed my kids fast food. Oh, this is so great. There is a bag of Chlorella or Spirulina. If you wanted both and you’re like “I can’t decide. I want all the benefits. What do I do?” Catherine made a 50-50 mix of Chlorella and Spirulina so each little bit is made of…


[01:11:54.24] Catharine Arnston: Blend.


[01:11:56.28] Ashley James: Yeah. Blend of it. That’s called the Vitalitybits. Each one has a little bit different texture, a little bit different taste. I like trying all three. The last thing we talked about…


[01:12:09.18] Catharine Arnston: It’s like a bits buffet. [laughs]


[01:12:11.03] Ashley James: Yeah. Right. I like your idea of putting like all the other trail mixes around. You take a little bit of that dark chocolate or take some cranberries, and some coconut flakes, make a little trail mix with the Energybits. I love it. That’s so cool.


[01:12:27.09] Catharine Arnston: Stay tuned.


[01:12:28.12] Ashley James: Yeah, right. I have tried it, by the way, with the macadamia nuts. It was absolutely delicious, so I do agree with you. The last thing is if anyone wants to eat Chlorella, they should eat 30-40 bits in one sitting. Because if you eat too few, it creates a detox effect that people would have felt negative. Because they feel the detox effect if they eat too few. I’ve had so many people say “Oh, I feel worse after eating Chlorella.” I’m like “How many did you eat?” “Well, I had 5.” You have to eat 30 or 40 so that you give your body enough to not only kind of stir-up the toxins but to grab on to them and absorb them. I’ve seen this several times. The best thing is to make sure you eat enough of the Chlorella. I’ve had an experience where I was going through, not because of Chlorella but because of a parasite [inaudible 01:13:19.23] I was doing, I felt so sick, I was having one of those flu-like symptoms from detoxing too quickly. I immediately ran to my Recoverybits and just started to take mouthfuls of them. [laughs]


[01:13:34.26] Catharine Arnston: That’s too funny. I’m sure your listeners: you can’t have actually too much and I don’t even want to tell you how much I eat every day but it’s just a very nutrient-dense food. On the other hand, with the Spirulina, in both cases, we recommend 30 as a single serving but we’re finding that people are so nutrient-deprived that even if you take 5 tablets of the Spirulina, you’ll feel the difference. It’s not like a lightning bolt from the sky because there are no stimulants and either the algae. But with Spirulina, you just feel fresh. You feel like you just had a great night sleep. Hunger is gone. Fatigue is gone. You don’t need to dissolve drugs the next day, you don’t need to take more to get the same effect.


[01:14:20.03] Ashley James: [laughs]


[01:14:20.08] Catharine Arnston: You can take them for when you’re on your way work or have them at 2:00 when you’re tired. You can also have them before bed because they won’t keep you up. It’s not that kind of energy. It’s like giving your car the high-test gas, it just purs with performance. You want to put with the pur performance [laughs].


[01:14:39.11] Ashley James: [laughs] Take them at the bed, and you told this last time, and I’ve tried this and it’s right. And I’ve had listeners tell me, that when we take them at night, there the nutrients the body needs to make melatonin. People are telling: “Not only do I have more energy in the day from Energybits but I am sleeping better.” It really does make sleep better. I always run to Energybits specifically right before the interview because sometimes I do 2 or 3 interviews in a row. I’m exhausted and hungry. I don’t have time to run to the kitchen, it’s so great to have a handful of it. I really do feel that sense of being refreshed. I’m not hungry anymore. It’s not like I’m looking to replace a meal but it’s like a supplement and a snack at once. I’m a big fan.


[01:15:31.28] Catharine Arnston: I think we should create a new category. Instead of calling it a superfood, I think we should call it a “super snack.” [laughs]


[01:15:36.16] Ashley James: Super snack. There you go. That’s right.


[01:15:41.02] Catharine Arnston: …or I’m going to call it “super-duper food” [laughs]. It’s more than a superfood so it’s not enough. These are my children.


[01:15:48.26] Ashley James: Right. Exactly, It’s a super-duper food. It’s like way up there at the top of the food pyramid. Yeah. We’re going to make our own new pyramid of superfoods and Spirulina and Chlorella will be at the top and dark chocolate is going to be at the bottom.


[01:15:58.26] Catharine Arnston: [laughing]


[01:16:02.19] Ashley James: Very cool. It’s been so great having you back on the show.


[01:16:07.09] Catharine Arnston: Oh, thank you so much. It’s so great to be here and chat. I know we could talk longer but I think we have to call it…


[01:16:13.02] Ashley James: [laughing]


[01:16:14.29] Catharine Arnston: Everybody probably has to get some bits. [laugh]


[01:16:18.11] Ashley James: Yeah. I’m definitely going to have my bits after this conversation. Thank you so much for coming on the show again. Please come back anytime you have more to share. I’m really excited to follow the progression of farming in the United States for Chlorella and Spirulina and see where it goes. I would love to see in 5 to 10 years your company like producing, farming your own, that would be so amazing. I won’t go do a farm tour. I’m just imagining you and me walking down the aisles of the tanks in the valley desert of Florida. That would be so wonderful to have that connection where you can see right from the beginning until the end… see every step of the process. I’m really looking forward to Chlorella and Spirulina being in every home. Something that we all consume on a daily basis because of the benefits both for the environment and for our health. It’s been wonderful having you on the show. Please come back…


[01:17:24.11] Catharine Arnston: Thank you. Okay. I’ll get all those articles for you on the toxin stuff. We’ll get that posted. My parting word would be: instead of asking yourself “Why you should take algae?” I would ask to say to yourself: “Why wouldn’t you?”


[01:17:40.14] Ashley James: [laughs]


[01:17:41.03] Catharine Arnston: [laughs]


[01:17:44.24] Ashley James: There’s no reason not to.


[01:17:47.18] Catharine Arnston: Alright. Thank you so much. Use your discount code “LTH” for your 20% off.


[01:17:54.18] Ashley James:  Hello, True Health seeker, have you thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition and how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity? Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business, support people in their success? Do you love helping people? You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for integrated nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health-coaching certification program and it really blew me away. It’s so amazing. I learned over a hundred dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition. But from a standpoint, of how we can help people shift their lives and shift their lifestyles to gain true holistic health.

I definitely recommend you check them out. You can Google [inaudible 01:19:08.21] for integrated sports nutrition or IAN and give them a call or you can go to and you can receive a free module of their training. Check them out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in. Be sure to mention my name, Ashley James, and the Learn True Health podcast because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program.

I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information. We need more health coaches. In fact, coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctor’s offices. You can work in hospitals. You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help your local schools shift their programs to help children be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success and health goals.

There are so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach so check out IAN. Check out the Institute for Integrated Nutrition. Mention my name. Get the best deal. Give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon, and the next round of classes are starting at the end of the month so you’re going to want to call them now and check it out. If you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.

Are you getting to optimize your health? Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price? For high-quality supplements and to talk to someone about what supplements are best for you?

Go to and one of our fantastic True Health coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are of the highest quality at the best price. That’s That’s Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program.


Get Connected With Catharine Arnston!

Official Website





Recommended Book by Catharine Arnston

Vitamin K2 And The Calcium Paradox by – Kate Rheaume – Bleue


Recommended Links:

Learn True Health – Episode 218

Learn True Health – Episode 227

Learn True Health – Episode 265

Downloadable Information About Chlorella And Spirulina:

why is our spirulina and chlorella the safest and best

mothers milk and spirulina-have the same nutritional profile chart and explanation 3 pages

chlorophyll content in sprirulina and chlorella compared to other vegetables- one page (2)

Vitamin K2 is found in RECOVERYbits chlorella helps prevent heart disease, Alzheimers and osteoporosis

May 25, 2019


Neurolinguistic Programming

Art Giser is the creator of Energetic NLP (neurolinguistic programming). For today’s episode, he will introduce us to the world of Energetic NLP and he will also share some techniques to clear and develop our energy for our personal development.


[00:03] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host Ashley James. This is Episode 356. I am very excited about today’s guest. This is one of my favorite topics and yet we haven’t covered it in a tremendous amount of detail on the show yet. So, today’s the day. We have with us Art Giser who is – he’s the creator of Energetic NLP. His website’s And for those who don’t know what NLP is, it’s neurolinguistic programming. Art is a very experienced trainer of NLP and has many other gifts and talents that he’s here to share with us today.  Welcome to the show.


[00:49] Art Giser: Well, thank you. I’m happy to be here.


[00:51] Ashley James: Absolutely. We had a great talk before we hit record. And you have some goodies to share with us today, some great transformative tools. But before we get into that, I want to dive into your story and learn a bit more about you. What led you to want to become a trainer of NLP and then dedicate your life to helping people transform their lives?


[01:14] Art Giser: For me, it wasn’t a plan. I’m not one of those people who had their whole life mapped out. I thought I did. When I’m just really young, I want to be a scientist when I grow up, and my father was one of the early computer guys and I loved science and logic. And I knew I wanted to be a scientist when I grow up. But I was also really intrigued, even at a young age, by hypnotism and the powers of the unconscious mind and extrasensory perception and telepathy. And somehow, I knew there was a reality to that too, but I didn’t know how to explore what it was about. And I was really adventuresome. And then something happened. I graduated from college [inaudible] from the U.K., I graduated from university. And I got stuck. I got stuck for years. I had a degree in Biology, and I thought I did know what I wanted to do when I grow up. So, I thought maybe I can get a research job for a while until I figure it out. And miraculously, I got hired by the University of California Medical School in San Francisco, which is one of the top research institutions in the world. And after a couple of years, I ended up managing this research lab. It was all very synchronistic and lucky. And there were a lot of wonderful things about it. I literally could go have lunch and listen to Nobel Laureate speak. And I work with great people, and we were investigating the effects of estrogen and progesterone on tissues of a woman’s body. So, it was worthwhile work.And I’m sure some of the listeners can relate to this, it wasn’t where I belong. I knew it wasn’t where I could shine. I was using what I came in to do in this lifetime. But I had no idea what that was. And I’d always had this belief that something was just going to appear and that would show me where to go. And then as the years went on, I thought, “Well, maybe I’m just kidding myself. And maybe, is there something wrong with me? Why can’t I figure out what I want to do?” And I began to feel worse and worse about myself. And I was thinking about it recently, other than finding true love, every great change in my life has happened because of a teacher or a workshop. And the first one that broke the ice is a man named Bruce Honig, who was offering a course in creativity at the student union. And nowadays, that sounds normal. But at that time, I didn’t know you could teach creativity. I’d never heard of anybody doing anything like that. And I went to his course and the biggest thing I got out of it was here’s somebody who created something that was what he wanted to do.

People are more entrepreneurial now. But at that time, I’d never thought of doing anything like that. And he told me about a lecture on intuition. And I went to it, and they were selling different books. And on a break, I was out in the hallway and there was a bulletin board and it had flyers on it. And one of them said “neurolinguistic programming.” And when I read the words, it felt like a bolt of lightning hit the top of my head and went through my entire body. It was like a “boom.” And in my mind, like the scientist in me, was going, “What was that?” And the mystic in me was going, “That was a sign. What do you think it was?” And I didn’t know what to do with that. And I didn’t know what neurolinguistic programming was. I went back for the rest of the talk and I noticed on the table they were selling all these books on intuition, but they had one book that was an NLP book, a neurolinguistic programming book, that had nothing to do with intuition. So, I don’t even know why it was there, but I thought, “Okay. That’s a second sign.” And I bought it, took it home, started reading it. And it’s just everything they were saying made sense to me.

For people who are new to neurolinguistic programming, it was started in the ‘70s in California. And the people who started it want to know how can people make a rapid, deep personal change. And at that point in time in Psychology, in the ‘70s, psychologists talked about, “If you want to make a deep change, it could take like five years.” That wasn’t even a long time. I remember speaking to a psychologist once and she went, “For a deep change, I have to work with people for at least five years.” And the people who started NLP went, “Well, there are some people who would get rapid, fantastic results with people.” So, they started studying them and videotaping them. And back in those days, videotaping with a machine that was about half a big as your refrigerator, you had to bring a cart. It wasn’t like you pick up your iPhone. And they develop this whole theory.

So, going back to my story, so I was intrigued by what I read. But the one thing that bothered me, as somebody who did Science and research, that they made all these extravagant claims. Their claims are so extravagant. I thought these are just really hard to believe, but I was just really intrigued. And I had to find out what it was. And for once in my life, up to that time, I would have gone, “Okay. What’s most convenient? What’s the cheapest option?” But I was so intrigued by this I went – I tried to find out who was the absolute best person who could teach an NLP course that I could go to the soonest. And that was so unlike me. And I found this course. It was taught by a man named by Michael LeBeau, who’s not well known now because he retired in 1985. But he was a great developer in NLP. And he was teaching this course, and I had no business being there. It was an advanced course. I was going to have to take five days in one month and five days the next month, and it was really expensive. But I was just so compelled. I thought I had to find out if this is really what I think it is.

And when I went to the first course – I know you’re familiar with the concept of resistance. If people aren’t listening, sometimes when you’re going to make a great change in your life, all the unconscious programming acts up. So, I managed to severely sprain my ankle the day before. I think I was actually kind of a little bit in shock. I didn’t even have time to go to the doctor. I borrowed crutches from a friend. I didn’t even actually know how to use them correctly. There was no Uber or Lyft, so I had to take several buses and taxi. And I thought, “Oh, my God. This is going to be difficult.” But I thought, “I’m going to do it anyway. Nothing is going to stop me.” And I showed up and Michael LeBeau came out. Well, the first thing they did is they went, “Does anybody need help with transportation?” So, the rest of the week, I have rides to and from. I thought, “Well, that’s a good sign.” Well, Michael came out and he goes, “I want you to take out a piece of paper and write down your goals for being here.” And everybody’s writing, writing, writing including me and getting into it. And about five minutes later he goes, “Okay. Please stop writing. Take that piece of paper, fold it up, put it away and forget about it.” And you can hear 60 people going, “Huh?” And then he goes, “What I want you to get out of this program is what you don’t even know to want yet.”


[08:49] Ashley James: Yes.


[08:52] Art Giser: And that’s about what happened [inaudible], yes. And I thought, “I’m definitely in the right place.” And it completely changed my life being in that program. Then I had to go back and take the beginning NLP courses to find out what I missed. But that was the big start for me. But the other thing that happened is when I went back to take the beginning courses – this was in Marin County, which is just north of San Francisco on the other side of the Golden Gate Bridge – and so there were a lot of people into healing and energy work and psychic development. So, people started teaching me things. There’s this amazing psychic, Lin Martin, and his wife Stacy – she’s also incredible – and they’re going to be teaching a workshop this weekend, “But they’re just going to be at our house Wednesday night and I’m inviting people over. Do you want to come? And I’ll just be reading some people.” Then I was like, “That sounds like fun.” So, I came, and I showed up late and everybody’s already in the circle and Lin has his eyes closed. And one by one people is asking questions. And if they asked a question that was like a decision question, he’d always say the same thing, it’s like, “No, you have free will. It’s not for me to tell you what to do.” But if they ask any other kind of question, he would say something to them. And sometimes, it didn’t sound like a big deal to me, but I would look at the person and their eyes would get wide and their mouth – I mean, you could just see like he just nailed something for them.

So, sometimes I’m a slow study. So, when he gets to me, I asked him a decisions question. I go, “I’m studying NLP. I’m not sure what I want to do with it. Do I want to do one on one or do I want work with health? Do I want to work in corporations, do I want to do this and that?” And the funny thing is I ended up all those things. So, he goes to me, his usual, “Well, you have free will. It’s not for me to tell you what to do.” And then he goes, “But there’s something else.” And he goes, “How do I put this?” And he proceeds to tell me my biggest fear that I had never – I still don’t mention it to people. I had never mentioned it to anybody. And it probably didn’t sound like that big of a deal to anybody else, but I’m sure my eyes were like saucers and my mouth was hanging open. And then he goes, “You don’t have to worry about that.” And I felt like this weight come off me. So, I clear the decks and took his workshop that weekend and at the end of it, I could do quite amazing things. And then since then, I had two empowerments from the Dalai Lama, I’ve stayed with Philippine psychic healers and western healers and psychics and South American healers. So, I’m very much one of those people. I take the best of everything I’ve learned and put it together. So, that’s my basic story.


[11:52] Ashley James: That’s you in a nutshell.


[11:54] Art Giser: Yeah. That’s what’s led me to now.


[11:57] Ashley James: After that weekend, you said that you could do some amazing things. What kind of amazing things could you do after that weekend?


[12:05] Art Giser: Well, before I answer that, I’ll say that the one thing – and I’ll always be indebted to Lin – but the one thing he didn’t teach us to do was how to do energy work safely. And I think it’s because he didn’t need that, so he thought other people didn’t. Because he mentioned, he even goes, “I don’t want people to worry about that.” It ended up getting me in serious trouble, which is why I always teach people how to do it safely. But on the first night of the workshop, we all wrote down a question on a piece of paper and then folded it up and put a symbol on the outside and then he and Stacy would take turns pulling them out of a bowl and he’d go, “Oh, there’s a flower on it,” and then they’d answer the question without reading it. And so, the second night, they go, “Okay. Write down your questions again,” so we did. And then they go, “But we’re not going to do it. You’re going to do it.”


[13:00] Ashley James: Nice.


[13:01] Art Giser: So, they had us paired up. And of course, we were all like really nervous about this. And I paired up with this man and I went first. And it was great learning for me because since I had no information, I just had to say what popped in my mind. And when I was done and I’m thinking, “I have no idea if this is complete [inaudible]. I’m not sure what.” And when I was done, he goes, “Actually, I wrote down two questions and you answered them in order.” Yeah.


[13:34] Ashley James: That is so cool.


[13:35] Art Giser: Yeah. I was blown away. And then now he’s nervous. And then he described what was going on in my life so well I started using his description. I don’t remember exactly what my question was. I think it was about where to take things. And he goes, “You’ve been walking down this path and far ahead of you, there’s a fork on the road. And one fork is logic and the other fork is more mystical.” And he goes, “You’ve been walking up the road going, ‘Which fork do I take? Which fork do I take?’” And he goes, “Now you’ve gotten to the fork and you’ve realized there isn’t any fork.” And that was exactly what was going on in my life. And I’m like, “Wow.”


[14:21] Ashley James: That is so cool. Well, neurolinguistic programming is Science.


[14:25] Art Giser: Yes.


[14:25] Ashley James: And it is related to Metaphysics and Quantum Physics. We can see that there’s this level of this quantum change that people can do in an instant, that neurons can shift and create new neuropathways in an instant. Now we can use Science to hook up people’s brains and see that that this change work – we can prove it was Science. But back then, they were just proving it based on results. So, there’s a lot of science. But it is a good marriage of mystic and science, isn’t it?


[15:01] Art Giser: Oh. And in fact, I worked for a while. This is many years ago when there was still the Soviet Union. In Russia, they do a lot of research on energy work. And these Russians have moved to the U.S., this Russian scientist, and his wife. And they had this energy machine, and I introduced them to a man who had a brain mapping equipment. And when you set that machine at certain energies, the man with the brain mapping equipment goes, “I’ve never seen anything like this in my life.” You could put the brain in different states by just changing them – and you couldn’t hear it. It was silent. Just by changing the frequency of the energies, it was quite mind-boggling. I spent 11 years doing research. I’m not interested in doing more research, but I’m thrilled that there’s a lot of really good research now on healing and energy work and psychic abilities. A book I’d recommend to anybody listening is called An End to Upside Down Thinking. I think his last name is Grodan. There are two books ed An End to Upside Down Thinking. And to me, it’s like the perfect book. It’s packed with information. It’s really easy to read, and it’s short. But he goes through. He’s not a scientist. I think he’s a financial analyst or something. But he got curious about all this, so he went through a lot of the research and just present summaries of it in really simple ways that you can grasp. And he has footnotes for somebody who wants to read all the real research. That is quite an extraordinary book.


[16:44] Ashley James: It’s written by Mark Gober, G-O-B-E-R. I’ll make sure that the link to it is in the show notes of today’s podcast along with the links to everything that Art Giser does. We’ll make sure all the wonderful links, everything we talked about is in the show notes of today’s podcast at so that listeners can be sure to check that out.

Art, what was the first NLP book that you saw on that table that didn’t belong with all the other mystic books? What was that first NLP book that you read?


[17:13] Art Giser: And I have to abridge my story a little bit. It was a book called Reframing by Bandler and Grinder. And I got home, and I started the book and it goes, “Don’t start with this book.”


[17:25] Ashley James: Yes.


[17:28] Art Giser: So, I ordered the book Frogs into Princes.


[17:28] Ashley James: Yes.


[17:32] Art Giser: I left that out just to make the story shorter. So, the first book was Reframing, but the first book I read was Frogs into Princes. And it completely just changed my world.


[17:32] Ashley James: It’s funny how what was guiding you were to jump into the advanced stuff first and if it had happened the other way, you might have lost interest because, in the advanced courses, you got to see more like – that’s in the advanced courses, you learn the fast phobia model, you learn more of the heavy-hitting stuff, and so that you got to actually see the change work actually work. So, it’s interesting how the universe aligned itself, was to bring you the advanced stuff first.


[18:13] Art Giser: Well, you’re right. And it was even better than that. My NLP career has been incredibly synchronistic. The assistants at this advanced course were NLP trainers and master practitioners. And the people in the program, they were all advanced people. So, then when I started taking the basic course called the “practitioner course”, as you know, and when I started taking that, Leslie Cameron-Bandler, who had been married to Richard Bandler, one of the early developers of NLP – completely amazing – she had a research group, her and her husband, Michael LeBeau and David Gordon and some other NLP trainers and master practitioners, and it would meet every two weeks. When I was maybe even halfway through my practitioner program, they had an opening in the research group. And I knew most of the people because they knew me from the advanced program. So, they lobbied for me to get into the research group. And they went, well, there’s this new guy, he’s still a beginner but he’s got a talent for this. Maybe it would be good to have who is more naïve. So, all of a sudden, now, every two weeks, I’m meeting with these people who were developing new aspects of NLP. And people would go, “Aren’t you intimidated when you go? And I went, “I’ve never felt freer in my life. I’m the dumb new guy.”



[19:39] Ashley James: There are no expectations.



[19:41] Art Giser: Yes. If I say something dumb, it’s to be expected. If I say something perceptive, they’re all impressed.



[19:48] Ashley James: I love that. That is fantastic. It’s kind of like the situation I’m in now. I’m not a doctor but I interview doctors all day long and then they’re so impressed by what I say, and this is like great because when I say something stupid, it’s fine. I’m not a doctor. I love it. That is hilarious. I want to share with you, with the listeners who don’t know my experience, because I think it gives context to what you are sharing. I lost my mother suddenly to cancer. I mean, she died very quickly after her diagnosis, and we weren’t expecting it. And I’m an only child. And I was kind of lost. It hit me very hard as it would anyone close to their mother. I was 22 at the time. I was heading in one direction in my life, and all of a sudden, that just shut off. I was depressed. I tried to grieve healthily. And my parents introduced me to Landmark education, which they copy a lot of NLP. I don’t know if you know about their work. And they’re a great institution but they do copy a lot of NLP. And so, I’d been experiencing NLP all through my teenage years taking all their courses not realizing it at the time

So, when my mom died, I had been exposed to change work and to personal growth and development for so many years. I had this idea in the back of my mind, “I want to make sure I’m grieving healthily. I want to make sure like I understand that grief happens, but I want to make sure that I don’t get stuck and create some kind of a vicious cycle in my life because I can’t heal from this.” So, I started to seek grief counselors and therapists. And what I found was that everyone I went to, it didn’t feel like they were practicing excellence. Because that’s what I was looking for, I wanted to heal the best I could heal and create the best version of myself after having lost my mother. And I felt as though they were trying to find like sexual abuse in my childhood and they were trying to go back to my childhood and try to find something that wasn’t there. And I kept saying, “I want to heal what’s happened right now. This is what I’m dealing with. And I didn’t feel like any of them had any tools.

And at that time, I had joined an advanced course with Landmark called “Team Management Leadership Program.” And it’s a yearlong course but you can do it actually for multiple years and become a sort of like a leader in it. And then later, I was hired by Landmark to be on staff in Toronto. And during that time, I was still looking to heal. And so, those in my course, there’s about 30 or 60 or us at any given quarter, they knew what my intention was. I was sort of seeking this wanting to heal. I was still very depressed, but I was pushing through it and trying to find financers. And one of the participants, one of the students, called me up one day, and I still remember it very clearly, I remember standing there holding the phone, holding the cordless phone, this is when people didn’t have smartphones, and she said, “I just got back from a training, and I want to do a breakthrough session with you. In eight hours, you will be free of all that’s holding you back.” And I’m like, “Okay. That’s a big order. It’s a tall order to fill, but let’s do it.” Worst case scenario, I get nothing out of it. I’m one of her guinea pigs. I think she ended up charging me very, very little money because she just got back, and she wanted to practice. So, we did an eight-hour breakthrough session. And at the end of the eight hours, I felt like the weight of the world was lifted off my shoulders. I walked out of there feeling like I had completed my grief. And I felt free. And she said at the end of it, “You should really look into doing these courses.” I’m like, “Yeah, you’re right. I should really look into doing these courses.” I mean, I had to raise money for it. I had to create a business plan because this was all of a sudden going to be my direction. And I ended up on taking the practitioner, the master practitioner, the trainer’s training. That was in 2005.

And I can’t believe the things I saw that year and then the things I did with other people. It still blows my mind, the things that NLP can do for people. I had one woman who had a phobia of being in a crowd. She could be in an empty field but if four people were surrounding her, she would have a complete nervous breakdown. So, she had a very difficult time in life because if people were at close proximity to her, she would have a phobia. And after we did the fast phobia model – I did it with other students watching so they could also learn. At the end of the fast phobia model, not only did she not have the phobia, she forgot that she had the phobia. The memory of the phobia was deleted. Sometimes when we complete something, it is deleted from the brain. I mean, it’s just the brain is so complete with it. So, she no longer remembered that she ever had the phobia, to begin with. Luckily, I had other students watching. Otherwise, I would have been like, “Am I crazy? Did I like to drop into a different dimension?” We just cleared your phobia and you’re telling me you didn’t have a phobia. But it was one of those things where you can take someone who’s had a lifelong crippling phobia and within minutes, it’s no longer a problem. It’s so amazing. And you feel so empowered to help others, right?

So, my experience of NLP, it’s like how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Because it doesn’t stop after becoming a trainer. It’s just the beginning. And it just keeps going and going. And it’s so beautiful. So, I love that you were part of the early movement to develop NLP, develop all the tools. And what I loved about Richard Bandler and John Grinder’s work is that they looked around the therapy model in the United States at the time and they said, “In therapy, we’re either looking at what’s normal or abnormal but we’re not looking at excellence.” The whole concept, the whole American dream is like about excellence, right? So, what is it about therapy that’s just like you’re normal, okay, good? Stamp of approval, you’re normal. Keep going. But no one was looking at creating excellence. And I love that they found and modeled those rare therapists who were creating excellence and then develop the tools to teach anyone to repeat the same results. So, it’s exciting that you have this unique perspective of NLP since you were there at the beginning and helped formulate it.



[26:30] Art Giser: I love that story. You do see so many miracles with NLP. It’s amazing. And you mentioned the work on grief. There’s an NLP grief process that the first time I learned of it, I was reading it in a book. I hadn’t even been taught it. A woman client came in who her son had died in a fishing accident when he was 17, that has been 13 years ago, and she goes, “I want to be able to think about him without crying.” And one session would change it. So, I got this reputation about being this miracle grief worker. I’m doing it like a cookbook. I mean, she doesn’t know that. But I’m thinking, okay, Step 1, Step 2. I had never done it before. But that’s how powerful NLP is. The processes are incredibly amazing. And I found when you combine that with energetic work, it’s like one plus one equals 100. It just opens up more and more possibilities.



[27:38] Ashley James: That’s interesting. I studied with Tad James, of no relation. I think it’s really funny because I studied with him and then he hired me as a sales manager, that’s why I moved to the States. So, I worked for him for a while. After I became a trainer, I worked for a whole year doing NLP with companies and doing a lot of business work, which was so much fun, because I was hired to go into these businesses and do personal growth work with the staff, with the sales staff. And the whole intent is to make more sales, but my covert mission was to transform their lives. And it was so funny because we did. When someone has their lives transformed, of course, their sales are up because they’re happy, they’re more congruent. [inaudible] people better. They’re able to serve people better because they feel more whole and more complete and more congruent.

And so, I had a lot of fun with that. And then I went back the next year. After a year of doing that, I went back to assist at all the training. One of my best friends took the training. And during the time I was assisting the whole summer through the training – a lot of people do assist where once they’ve taken the courses, they can then – a lot of trainers would allow people to assist for free. It gives them sort of free work and then the assistants can review all of the info. And during that time, I was asked to come work for Tad James. So, I was on staff with him. And then I met my husband and my husband has the same last name, of no relation. But it was really funny because I married my husband and then all of a sudden, I became Ashley James. So, I had to answer the phone, “Tad James company. This is Ashley James speaking, of no relation.” Not like his daughter or something. But it was a great experience. And I got to see even further the change work.

What’s interesting is that Tad very early on saw that there needed to be a spiritual component to NLP. And NLP, it feels very Science based. And then he started studying Huna and bringing in spiritual work and energy work, and it just – the marriage between the two, I saw just – it was just fluid. It made so much sense that we’d have this doctors and scientists and businessmen come in and they think it’s very science-based and then by the end of it, they’re all doing more metaphysical work too. And it works. So, I completely understand why there’s just this missing link in therapy. It’s like if someone only does talk therapy, there’s just this missing link of spiritual, physical energetic. All of the aspects of who we are need to be addressed. Of course, it would make sense that you address the energetic along with the emotional, along with the mental work. It makes complete sense. In your early years of NLP, and also in the greeting spiritual energetic work, what kind of changes did you see that you can make in yourself that you’re excited and surprised by?



[30:48] Art Giser: Boy, that should be an easy question because I’ve made so many. The first thing I would say is I think both for the NLP in general and Energetic NLP, some things feel like changes. You mentioned NLP studies excellence and you can add skills, a lot of the work that I do, I do that work too, is more like unleashing what was already there. So, when people go through really big changes, often, they feel different, but they feel like, “Oh, this is me.” It’s a little bit like the example, the one that you gave with the phobia, that couldn’t even remember she even had the phobia because now she was operating out of who she was, not as some programming.


[31:35] Ashley James: You don’t remember the old you that holding you back, or those old conflicts because they’ve integrated back into you and you’re now whole.



[31:43] Art Giser: It’s bad for business. I was warned about this when I first studied NLP. Sometimes I have people write a letter to themselves and then give it back to them later, and they’ll go like, “I know I wrote this. I know it’s my handwriting, but I can’t even relate to it.”



[32:00] Ashley James: I do the same thing with the Facebook timeline, because I’ve been in Facebook since 2007, and I go back and see the things that I wrote. I mean, I studied NLP in 2005 but in 2007, I joined Facebook and I see what I wrote even back then. I have a journal from high school, but yeah, you’re right. You look back ten years ago or more and you’re like, it says, “I wrote this but that’s not who I am anymore.” So, that makes total sense. Well, let’s ask the question a different way.



[32:28] Art Giser: The most enormous example was it got me from being incredibly stuck to being incredibly free. And it got me away from perfectionism and trying to be right to – in fact, when I teach an Energetic NLP program, one thing that’s different about Energetic NLP the most energetic spiritual systems is the way we treat beliefs and concepts. So, when I look at somebody’s energy field, I don’t see this – you look at the little models, they look like little tornadoes and they do this and that, and I can see that if I want to that way. But I don’t think that’s what’s going on at all. I think that’s the way our unconscious mind is representing something vast and multi-dimensional and complex. So, I’ve taken the idea of models from NLP and brought it into that work. So, I made up a term called “beliefs du jour” like plate du jour or soup jour. When I’m teaching people, “These are my beliefs du jour. And I’m not attached to them. If you have better beliefs, that’s great. And I’m not attached to you believing what I believe.” Because in my work, my goal is that people tap more and more into their inner human wisdom and into their spiritual information and inside knowledge. And so, I don’t care if it agrees with what I’m saying or not. What I’m saying is to help them open up their beliefs and challenge them and then find their truth. And if it’s the same as mine, that’s great. If it’s different, that’s great. And if I like theirs better, I’ll tell them I’ll steal it and start teaching what you said.

NLP did that. It got me out of that. I mean, I now realize I was so stuck because I had put myself in a box. I felt like I was failing myself by having been in this job so long, so I had to prove myself with whatever I did next. So, of course, it was a terror of whatever I do next. What if I don’t prove myself in trying to be right and all these things? So, opening up to the joy and freedom of – even enjoying sometimes going, “Oh, I was wrong then. And this is a better idea. This is a better idea.” You’re not even going to say that I was wrong. But this is the next step. This is the next step. So, that’s been huge for me. It’s affected my health. I’ve had a couple of really big health challenges along the way, and I’m sure the Energetic NLP work made a huge difference in – I usually see that in my clients and students. I say “usually” because nothing always works. Sometimes it’s somebody’s path to die, that’s kind of a whole other story. But it’s changed my relationships. It’s changed how I approach everything I do in life. So, that’s why it’s almost hard to answer. It’s like “What’s changing?”

And another thing is people always liked me, but I had rough edges. My parents are both from Boston and had that kind of east coast “in your face” kind of thing. And I grew up in Southern California, so it wasn’t a fit. So, people like me, so I got away with it. But I was stepping on toes a lot more than I realized. NLP just gave me incredible skills about how to be more influential with people, and kinder. To more lead them to an idea rather than smash them for being – it wasn’t my intention to smash them. But I was the kind of person who’d go, “Why are you saying that? That’s wrong.” And not meaning this as an attack, which is like in New York City or something, you can talk like that. Just learning how to influence other people. I was anti-corporate. And then when I started working in corporations like you’re talking about sales, I had the same kind of experiences. And I was shocked. I thought salespeople are all going to be superficial and limited. And in fact, a lot of them were interested in personal spiritual growth because they know that matters. And I realized that with more women in corporations and more younger people and just the baby boomers too, that people were trying to get out of the old corporate model. So, it was fantastic to go in and help people be better leaders, help teams are more effective by being more human, by bringing out the best in each other rather than through power moves. And I would tell people I feel a little like Robinhood, that they’re paying me to change them. The only difference is they’re making more money too. So, unlike Robinhood, it was working for the corporation, but it was making them more human and it’s more effective. I was surprised at how much fun that was.


[37:52] Ashley James: Yeah, me too. Absolutely. I had this one guy, he was the manager of this electronic store, this high-end electronic store, in Trois-Rivieres, Quebec, I speak little French, he speaks half English. We managed growing up. I grew up in Toronto. And at the time, we were all sitting around the table, we’re releasing negative emotions, timeline therapy, which is something that Tad created but it’s – you can consider it sort of an offshoot of NLP because NLP is just the collection of these great tools.


[38:28] Art Giser: Right.


[38:29] Ashley James: And we get to releasing the root cause, the root of sadness. And I said to him, “Are you ready? You have to consciously get that you’re congruent and you’re ready to let go.” And I’d been doing this work for a year and I’d never met someone who said no. Of course, you want to let go of the root cause of sadness. You want to resolve all the sadness inside of you so that you gain all the positive learnings and you’re no longer holding on to neurologically – all the sadness. Of course, you want to. He was stone cold. He had very little circulation in his face or his neck. And it was like the middle of winter, so we were all bundled up anyway. I could just see his neck and his face, but he was white as a ghost. I just kind of chalk that up to being Canadian. He just had a stone-cold face and he said, “No.”

So, I pressed a little bit. And I’d already kind of pre-famed it that we want to be very congruent. We want to let go of unresolved negative emotions from our past so that when we deal with our customers, we can then be clear to really help them and be of service and also be able to be better at our job, make more money. So, they all wanted that. And he agreed he wanted that. But when we came to releasing sadness, he couldn’t do it. And he just wouldn’t. He had a block. And I said, “Okay. What’s going on? Tell me about that.” He said, “I cannot let go of sadness because I saw my grandmother burn to death at a house fire when I was three. And I hold on to the sadness to honor her.” And of course, as you know, in NLP, we immediately think of what kind of reframes that we can use to help them see it in a different way. And it just came to me. It was like lightning. Right out of my mouth, I said, “Do you realize you’ve been honoring your grandmother with the wrong emotion? When you think of her, you want to feel love.” And his eyes became huge like saucers. He was like in his 50s. So, he’d been doing this for – he was probably 53. Probably been doing this for 50 years, holding on to sadness to honor his grandmother and pulling himself down. He had lowered immune system. There are all kinds of physiological things that can occur when we are holding on to sadness.

And as I said that, and it registered, I saw redness. I saw color coming into his neck and start to come up – not red like anger, but red like circulation – started to come up his neck and his cheeks got red. His eyes were wide. And as I saw the redness creep up his face, he said – I said, “Okay. Are you ready to let go of sadness?” And he slams his hand down on the table and he goes, “Yes.” And it was congruent. We were doing this a group. Everyone was releasing their sadness. And he went back to the memory of losing his grandmother. He gained positive learning to let go of the sadness, let go of all the sadness from his past from other events, came back to now. And as he walked out, his regional manager, Mario, who I’ve known since I was a child, he’s a personal – sort of family friend, and Mario is the one that introduced my family to Landmark education. So, he’s really into personal growth work. And he watched this gentleman walk out and Mario did a triple take. I watched him looked at the guy, looked away and it was shocking in his face. Looked at him again, looked away, looked at him the third time, and he pulled me aside and said, “What did you do to that man? I’ve known him for 15 years. I have never seen him smile. He looks like a completely new person.”

And it was just so cool that I was hired to help them do more sales but what I got to do was transform their life. And I’ve stayed in touch with Mario. And that man ended up changing positions because they had multiple store locations, he ended up giving up his position for a different position in a store much closer to home so he could make a smaller commute, so he could spend more time with his children and wife. And what I was told was that after that day, completely changed his life, his marriage improved, his relationship with his kids improved, his relationship, because he was holding everyone off at a distance because of the sadness that he decided he needed to hold on to honor his grandmother. You can go into a corporation to help a corporation make more money but end up transforming their lives with these tools. That has a ripple effect. His kids now a better life. His wife has a better life. All the people he touches has a better life. So, yeah, absolutely, we can go in and take NLP, like you can take NLP to corporations, but you end up transforming people’s lives. And so, I love the work that you do.

Now I’m sure listeners at this point are thinking that they want to learn this too. Can someone go and learn Energetic NLP from you? How does that work?


[43:35] Art Giser: They can. Going back to the story I said at the beginning when I can answer the man’s questions on a folded piece of paper, everybody can do that. Everybody has miraculous abilities. There’s this belief out there that only some of us were born with special abilities. It’s nonsense. It’s not everybody’s path. It’s not everybody’s interest. But I just want people to know everybody can do miraculous things. It’s normal. It’s just a matter of clearing the programming, things that block us, learning how to do it safely and learning to open up. And I lead programs both in-person workshops. I do a lot of online training programs that are a mixture of – you’re probably familiar with Zoom. Other people may not be. Zoom is this great platform now where you can do video meetings and you can then even – just like in a real workshop, you can put people in a video room together, like three people, they can practice. They can ask me questions. I can pop in. I can bring everybody back together again. So, I’ve been, the last couple of years, learning how to use that. So, I do a lot of both online training, in-person training. I do free Facebook Lives most weeks, times like when I’m working in London and stuff. I’m not always doing them. But most weeks, on Thursdays, I do a Facebook Live on the Energetic NLP page. I do a lot of other webinars. So, yes, I’m teaching all the time. It’s interesting I work with both people that are complete newbies and people that are advanced. Some of the people in my programs have worked with energy for 30 years and people that are brand new and we figured out ways to do that that works for everybody, which makes it fun and gratifying.


[45:35] Ashley James: That’s very cool.


[45:37] Art Giser: Most of the people are somewhat experienced, but the complete newbies are fine. Part of that is because in Energetic NLP, when we work with somebody, we always have them put their inner wisdom and their spirit in charge of what happens for them, so not what I think they need. Sometimes I’m putting on my NLP coach hat on and tells somebody, “This is me as a coach giving you advice.” But when I’m doing the energy work, I’m being guided by their inner wisdom and spirit. They’re in charge. So, I can have 100 people in the room and there can be 100 different experiences going on. And everybody’s getting different mixtures of energy, and the energies are doing different things. Once I figured out how to do that, it just opened up a whole possibility of what can happen in the training and the teaching. So, it works amazingly well.


[46:33] Ashley James: I know you’ve sort of just answered this question, but I think I want to dive a bit deeper. What is the difference between – like the NLP that I learn, maybe with someone who went and study with Richard Bandler or studied with Tad James or someone else or they’ve read a bunch of NLP books, what’s the difference between that and Energetic NLP, which is what you teach?


[46:55] Art Giser: Well, just pure NLP, if I can call it that, has nothing to do with energy work. One of the ideas that I got from NLP that I believe in is that every way of thinking is both a strength and a weakness. And so, the goal is to have different ways of thinking that you can change according to the situation. So, the great strength of traditional NLP was you treat everything as internally generated. Everything’s coming from your conscious mind, your unconscious mind how you’re processing information and the stimulus from the outside world. In energetic work, that’s not necessarily true. We’re like radio receivers. We’re picking up energies, thoughts, emotions from other people. Some of what’s going on inside of us aren’t us. And sometimes, people think that’s some little scam. I’m not talking about possession. But we’re being influenced by energies in our space, and that started when people were in the womb. So, let’s say somebody’s in the womb, and their mother or their father or somebody is anxious. Well, the spirit of the fetus knows they often are doing this out of love, but they also know that if the giants are in trouble, they’re in big trouble.

So, often, we start absorbing the energies from our parents that they’re having trouble handling. And what happens is you can get somebody as 50 years old going, “I’m anxious. I’ve always been anxious. I don’t know why I’m anxious. I do meditation. And I can calm down. I’m doing NLP. I can handle it. I’m just an anxious person. That’s just my DNA.” And a lot of times, most of the times, what we’ll find is that they’ve absorbed anxiety energy from other people. And because it’s somebody else’s energy, you can’t heal it. You can handle it. You can suppress it. You can do things with it, but you can’t heal it. In Energetic NLP, people learn how to release it, so which is not there anymore. And a lot of – any strong emotion or pattern that people have that they’ve worked on and they just can’t – maybe they make it better, but they can’t heal it or get rid of it. It’s probably mostly not their energy, which is why they’re having a problem.

So, I know you’re familiar with parts working. In NLP, we work with the different aspects of the unconscious mind and refer to them as parts. And very often, they’re creating internal conflicts and we work to resolve those. When you add in energy work, sometimes when you drain out the energy that isn’t the person’s, sometimes the part is gone. So, in NLP, we’d always be trying to work it out in a dialogue with other parts of you. But sometimes, like when we drain the energy, the parts are just gone. And if you had worked up this internal compromise, it’s inauthentic because part of it is just not you. It’s programming. It may sound odd to people that energy can contain emotions and programming. But the only way that human beings can communicate is through energy. That’s how people are listening to us right now. Even if we were in the same room, we move our mouths and our tongues and our lips. It vibrates molecules in the air. It goes to the bones in our ears. It gets changed in the neurochemical information and then the brain interprets that back into what we call sounds.

So, all information transfer is energetic. And it’s funny. Sometimes people go, “I don’t know if I believe that energy can have emotions.” And I’ll go, “Have you ever been to a sporting event?” And even the most straightway newscasters, the energy of the crowd is amazing because they feel it. Nowadays, people have huge TVs and great sound systems, they still would go to a bar or a pub or a game or a concert in person. Even though often, you can hear it better at home, but you don’t get the energy of the crowd in the same way.


[51:14] Ashley James: Right. Right. I was just thinking of doing an NLP like online course versus live. The energy of sitting with someone is vastly different than sitting online. Although if someone can’t come to live training, they should learn it online. It’s not to discredit learning online. The learning will happen. But I like being in person for the energy, for the experience of picking up and feeling the people in the room. There’s just something very unique to that, so I know exactly what you’re talking about.


[51:48] Art Giser: I think that’s normally true. And I do think in person live is the gold standard. That’s the best. But in Energetic NLP, when we have people online, we connect them energetically. We create energy spaces. So, most of the work I do with people is remote work. 99% of it. I work with people all over the world, and they feel the energy. And so, I teach my students how to create. So, when three of them are working, like the resume call, they’re not just on video, they’re connecting energetically. They’re in the energy spaces together. And while it’s – I wouldn’t say it – as good as being in person, it’s pretty darn close. It’s amazingly close.


[52:33] Ashley James: Could you connect with me or with the audience to do some change work today?


[52:39] Art Giser: Yeah, I’d be happy to.


[52:41] Ashley James: I don’t know if you can connect with people that are going to be listening to this in the future and give some advice to all the people listening if that’s something that is in your wheelhouse.


[52:53] Art Giser: Oh, yeah.


[52:54] Ashley James: Because that would be cool.


[52:56] Art Giser: Yeah. I’ll do that in a minute. What I’ll just explain to people is that when people listen to the recordings of when I’m doing energy work, they access the energy. How that works is an interesting story. But in some ways, the energies exist outside of linear time. If people are listening to this as a recording, if they pretend it’s happening right now while they’re listening to it, the energies would be there. People tell me they use recordings that I made 10 years ago and stuff all the time and they feel the energies. In fact, one man, I knew him through business things, and he wasn’t sure about all this energy stuff. But he was listening to one of my recordings on his phone while he was doing other work, and he goes, “I wasn’t even paying any attention.” He started doing stuff on his computer. He goes, “All of a sudden, tears were coming to my eyes and I’m shaking and I’m releasing all this stuff.” And he goes, “I was so not expecting anything to happen.” So, it wasn’t like a placebo, because he was sure nothing was going to happen.

And so, we’ll connect people. We can connect people who aren’t on the call yet. And how that works, in the advanced Energetic NLP programs, we work a lot with time and working outside of time, which is very, very interesting. I want people to know, for Energetic NLP to work, it’s not faith healing. You don’t have to believe anything. People can block the work. So, if they’re going, “This can’t work,” they could block it. But if they’re going, “I don’t necessarily believe this, but okay, I’m open to finding out,” that’s all of the more permission they need to give. So, they don’t have to believe it is or isn’t going to work. If anybody’s listening to this while they’re driving, I’m going to ask them to either pull over or turn it off because I will start working with the energies and the energies are designed to make you go inward for deep transformation. And that’s not how you want to be when you’re driving.


[55:10] Ashley James: I know exactly what you mean. The other day, I was working with a client and I started to do some shifting with her while she was driving, and she had to pull over. I’m like, “Okay. Maybe I shouldn’t be doing this work with people.” Because she’s like everything was like the world was spinning around her. Like she was having a very physiological reaction to the change work. I’m like, “Okay. Let’s park and we’ll pick this back up.”


[55:37] Art Giser: Yeah. People, would they get away with it? Probably. It’s like driving fast when it’s raining. You’ll probably get away with it but something horrible could happen. So, not worth it. So, there’s a couple of ways. First, I can just run some energy for people. And then if you want, I can teach them a technique.


[56:03] Ashley James: Oh, sounds great.



[56:05] Art Giser: Okay. So, I’m going to describe this as visualizations. It doesn’t matter whether people consciously see it or not. I know some people don’t visualize well. I used to be a terrible visualizer. And it doesn’t matter. If you just pretend, you’re seeing it, then your unconscious mind will see it. And that’s perfectly fine. So, the only way to block this is if people are going, “Am I doing it right? Is it working?” So, I just ask people just have whatever experience you’re having without judging it. And then, later on, you will or won’t notice some differences. And some of the most powerful energy work I’ve ever received from world-famous healers; I didn’t always feel it that much in the moment. And sometimes, it’s more like an hour later, “Oh, okay. Something happened.”

So, a long way of saying, it doesn’t matter if they feel it or not. It doesn’t matter if they think profound thoughts or mundane thoughts. It doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is that they give permission for their inner wisdom and spirit to be in charge. And when somebody’s inner wisdom and spirit are working together, it forms something that we call your miraculous self. Your miraculous self. And that’s when a person’s inner wisdom and spirit are working together to guide them and help them manifest their life and to heal them and nurture them. And you might think it would be automatic that your inner human wisdom and your spirit are collaborating, but it is not. And this is different than the high self. So, people try to mush the two ideas together. Your high self just exists. Your miraculous self is kind of like a muscle you may have never used. So, you have to build it.

And the first step, as a human being, as a conscious being, we have a right to make choices in our lives. So, I’d like everybody, if they want to just go, “Okay. I’m choosing and giving 100% permission for my inner wisdom and my spirit to collaborate. I’m choosing and giving 100% permission for my inner wisdom and my spirit to collaborate and form a miraculous self. For my miraculous self.” And then I’d like people just to pretend that there’s a giant gold ball of energy and that everybody listening to this conversation is inside of it while this conversation is going on. And in the end, it will dissolve. And if somebody’s listening to this, again as a recording, the gold ball will form again. And let’s imagine this gold ball is filled with gold energy and also amethyst energies. And amethyst energies are the colors you see in an amethyst crystal. They go from lavender to dark purple. And the reason people in energy work use colors is we different colors because they’re different frequencies of energy. Different frequencies of light. So, when we imagine colors in the energy, again, whether you see them or not, if you just pretend, “Okay. I’m surrounded by gold and amethyst energy,” those are energies that help with transformation, with dissolving blocks and opening up to our authentic selves and our miraculous abilities.

So, I’d just like people to pretend we’re all in this giant gold and amethyst ball of energy. And people all over the planet talk about Mother Nature, Mother Earth. Pretty much everybody’s felt that when they’re like at the beach or out in the woods or someplace in the field. Those energies are in fact everywhere. So, let’s invite that Mother Nature, Mother Earth energy to come into our gold and amethyst ball of energy. And these are energies that are nurturing, healing, energies that love us, energies that acknowledge that you have a right to exist, that you’re on the planet because you’re supposed to be on the planet. There aren’t any extra people on the planet. So, just let those energies come in.

And I’d like everybody to think of one thing in their life that they’d like to have improved. It could either be a problem or it could be an opportunity, but something they’d like enhanced or improved. And this is being recorded so you can pick something else later. Just pick one thing for now. And then give your miraculous self, your M, 100% permission to be in charge. And again, since your miraculous self is your inner human wisdom working with your spirit, whatever it decides will be what’s right for you at this moment in time. And in energy work, you’re never trying to clear all the blocks at once. It can be too big of a shift. So, just let your miraculous self choose what blocks the energy that’s coming in is going to dissolve and heal and what of your inner abilities it’s going to open up and enhance. And just give your miraculous self 100% permission to identify the blocks for right now and identify what it wants to be enhanced. Then take a couple of easy deep breaths. I’m just going to run the energy for a few minutes then I’ll teach everybody a technique they can do. But right now, it’s just intention and permission. Intention for your life to be enhanced and permission for your miraculous self to use the energies I’m bringing in to transform your life. Take a couple of easy deep breaths. Take a couple of easy deep breaths.

Sometimes, people get very serious about this. The more playful you are, the stronger it will be. So, bring out your playful inner child. As the energies are moving programming and limiting beliefs from your energy field and your unconscious mind, they’re immediately being replaced by your inner wisdom, by insights, knowledge, and wisdom from your spirit. So, as any programming gets dissolved, any beliefs get dissolved, they’re immediately replaced by your inner wisdom and information, insights, knowledge and wisdom from your spirit.

Okay. Now we’re going to bring in energies to help you process and integrate that. In this type of energy work, it doesn’t finish when we’re done. It will go on for days or even weeks of processing, which is a good thing. And I’d like to say to everybody’s unconscious minds that after listening to this, if anybody’s driving or doing anything that requires safety, I want their miraculous self and their unconscious mind to turn the processing way down, make sure they’re grounded, make sure you’re safe, make sure you’re alert. So, grounded, safe and alert. And then when you’re sleeping, that’s a good time to turn up the processing only to the level that still allows you to sleep well and not like all night long. But just a portion of when you’re sleeping, your unconscious mind can review what we just did in that energy session and your M, your miraculous self, will infuse it with your inner wisdom, infuse it with your spiritual information and make it richer and deeper and higher and wider, making it more multidimensional and make it more automatically integrated into your life. That could happen while you sleep soundly and deeply and wake up feeling refreshed. And so, the people can pay a little more attention, it’s good to stomp your feet, pat your body, your arms and your head. How are you feeling, Ashley?


[69:22] Ashley James: I’m feeling very good. You didn’t tell us to open our eyes, but I imagine you want us to open our eyes now.


[69:30] Art Giser: Yeah. Or not. Whatever you want to do.


[69:32] Ashley James: Whatever you want.


[69:33] Art Giser: Now, if there’s time, I can teach people a short powerful energy process too.


[69:39] Ashley James: Yes, we have all the time in the world. Yeah. This is a long show. My listeners know that. Because I want to get some real meat. I want to help my listeners make the changes they need. But I want to tell you about my experience. I felt it. I’d say I’m the most open-minded skeptic. I kind of go into everything like I’m open-minded but I’m not believing that anything’s like – because the perfect way to be – placebo effect can’t affect me because I’m not going in with a belief system but I’m going to be open-minded about it. But I’m also kind of skeptical. So, when stuff happens, I’m like, “Oh, that’s a surprise. I wasn’t expecting stuff to happen.” But the first few deep breaths, I started to cry, and I felt like these tingles. They’re not painful, but like pleasurable but very intense waves going up my body of tingles as I was taking the first few breaths.


[70:35] Art Giser: That’s great.


[70:36] Ashley James: That was cool. I did feel it.


[70:40] Art Giser: I’m really glad you brought that up. While I’m really glad you felt it, and I will remind people, it’s fine if you don’t feel it. And sometimes, when the energy is going on, people temporarily feel discomfort. And that’s blocks being worked on. And sometimes, that’s just the way it shows up. So, that’s okay if they felt temporary discomfort. Sometimes, emotions come up and they’re coming up to be released. So, if people do like you did and just let it flow, that’s perfect. If they start going, “Why am I feeling this,” they can trip over themselves. It’s just old stuff you’re releasing, so you don’t have to do anything with it. Just let it go.


[71:25] Ashley James: Makes total sense. Absolutely.


[71:28] Art Giser: So, I teach people this technique, and like anyone technique, this is just a tiny portion of what’s possible, and it’s a super powerful technique. Many people who this is the only thing I’ve taught them and told me it’s made a difference in their lives. So, it’s a little tiny piece of what’s possible, and it’s a little powerhouse. And the way it works relies on the unconscious mind and energetically and spiritually, in spiritual systems, they often go symbol and reality are one. Symbol and reality are one. So, if you imagine something mean something, your unconscious mind and your spirit will go, “Okay. Sure, I’ll do that.” And it’s something I used to use a lot in my NLP work, too, that you give people a symbol or metaphor for something to work with and then all of sudden, it would open up an ability even though you unconsciously know how it’s working. So, this technique is for clearing other people’s energy and old energies out of our energy field.

And so, Ashley, and anybody that’s listening, if you look at your hands right now, imagine what your hands would look like if you never washed them in your entire life, they’d be coated with all kinds of gunk and stuff. You would have trouble moving and flexing your fingers, because of all the crud on them. And the worst part would be you would think that was you. You would think all that junk was just authentically part of you. Genetically, that’s what my skin looks like, my hands look like. Then if you fell in a lake and it got washed off, you’d look at your real hands and go, “What’s this? I can move my fingers. This feels better. Boy, it doesn’t hurt as it did.” And the same way our energy fields are constantly collecting stuff. Most people would be appalled at how much of the energy in their energy field is not theirs. And the energy in your energy field doesn’t have to be 100% yours because some energies are like food, we’re using them. But people tend to have their energy field stuff with other people’s energy. And when you’re being intimate with somebody, whether it’s an intimate conversation or sexually intimate or any other kind of intimacy, it feels good to merge energies.

But what people don’t do is separate back out. But we also merge energies with people we don’t like and with energies that are just around. So, we’re constantly being affected by energies that aren’t authentic to us. And as I mentioned earlier, any emotional state that somebody goes, I feel it too often or I handle it badly and I worked on it, it’s better but it’s not where I want it to be. There’s about 99% chance that a lot of the energy isn’t yours, and that’s why you can’t get it where you want it to be because we can always deal with our authentic energies. You mentioned grief earlier. We can deal with our authentic grief. But when somebody’s feeling grief, they tend to pull in other people’s grief energy. And other people get triggered by their grief and start releasing their grief energy. And then all of a sudden, you can handle it. And I think that one of the reasons for road rage is people leave all kinds of energy on the highways and roads and a lot of its frustrations, anger, they’re in traffic jams. And if somebody starts getting upset when they’re driving, sometimes you open up a portal and similar energies just flood in. And all of a sudden, they’re crazy. They’re out of control.


[75:22] Ashley James: It’s funny you should say that. I had on the show before a man named Eric Thorton. He’s been on the show a few times and he’s a local spiritual healer. He talks to angels and guides. His whole life, since he was born, he could just see them and talk to them. He thought everyone could until he realized he’s different. But I’ve interviewed him in person. I’ve met him a few times. So, it’s been really interesting. He seems like a normal guy. He was a carpenter for 20 years. But when he was 12 years old, without any carpenter experience, his angels and guides, or whoever talks to him, told him how to remodel his mom’s kitchen. So, that’s what started. He had no formal training and he became a finished carpenter. Very good at it. He’s at that level where his gifts were turned on.

And like you said, everyone can tap into these gifts and he’s just been working on it for 50 years. So, he’s got more experience. But he said something very similar. What you just said reminded me. He said that if someone has unresolved anger, it’s almost like a magnet on their chest, and then they pull in all this other anger energy until there’s all these magnets sort of built upon them. All this anger kind of drawn to them because that’s the energy that they’re holding on to, that they have a process that they’re sort of projecting. And so, an angry person can attract more anger in their life. And he thinks it’s almost like a mechanism in order for us to heal it. If we’re not going to heal it when it’s a whisper, maybe we’ll heal it when it’s like a 2×4 hitting us over the head. And so, those who are sad will attract all the sadness and all these other people that have sadness until they finally wake up and heal it and see what angered it. It’s like it will just compound until we finally address it until we finally wake up and address it. People just suck it and pull in energy that complements the energy they’re holding on to.

So, it’s similar to what you said, that if we were experiencing some road rage or some frustration on the road, that because there’s other people around us, we kind of pick up on it and it will amplify. When I was a kid, I would have tummy aches all the time from my parents fighting. They’d be in another room and sometimes, I wouldn’t even know they fight. I couldn’t hear them but I would get very intense feelings in my body like I was walking on eggshells and anxiety and my tummy would be in a clinch and I’d feel like I had to almost hide because of the amount of anger coming off of both of them. It was very scary. And I didn’t know, as a child, how to deal with it. But now looking back, I can see I was picking up on their energies that they were putting off. And my body was physiologically reacting to the energies they were putting off.


[78:23] Art Giser: Wow. That exactly. What you can learn to do, what I’ve been taught, and I’ve included as a big part of Energetic NLP, is we would say everybody’s the sovereign of their energy field. So, you hear all this stuff about energy vampires and people doing this and that. And I understand how people see it that way. What I was taught and what I found to be true is we’re all the sovereigns of our energy field. And if another energy is, to say, stuck in there, it has to hook into something of ours. Now it could be unconscious. It could be karma. It could be spiritual contracts. It can be energetic programming. So, we start looking at that as a gift. It’s similar to what the healer you’re talking about was saying. You can use it to go, “Okay. What in me is that hooking into? And then if I heal what it’s hooking into and I kind of release that energy, but my life gets better. Because I’ve cleared what’s authentic.” And there’s a lot of amazing energy workers who don’t know about that. And so, I’ll get healing from somebody and I feel fantastic later, but it’s like the old joke a half hour, you’re hungry again. Because they haven’t gotten the Velcro, the hooks that were in me. So, eventually, something hooks again. So, in Energetic NLP, we’re always going, “Okay. If I’ve absorbed that person’s anger, what is it in me that’s allowing that and then how do I heal or change that?”


[79:57] Ashley James: I love this philosophy. And I can see where the NLP comes into play because it has them shift to personal responsibility. It has them shift instead of being the victim of these energies happening to them, they’re now shifting to be a cause in the world and be 100% responsible for their change, which then empowers them.


[80:16] Art Giser: It’s a great story, but I’m going to make it just really short. I used to go to a spiritual center in Brazil. And people often go off, “I open up to energies. What if I connect with something negative?” And there are simple things to do around it. But this one time, I connected with the most – I don’t intend to use the word “evil” but that would be a good description of this energy. It was intense and malevolent. It entered my dreams. And when I woke up, it was still there. It was there. And I was kind of half awake, so I’m doing things to clear my energy. It’s getting better but it’s not working. Finally, I got awaken up to just kind of in my mind go, “I’m the sovereign of my energy field. You’re irrelevant to me. You can be in my room or not. But I don’t care because you have no power.” And soon as I did that, it was gone. And because my resistance to it and my giving it power was giving it power. And as soon as I recognize like, “I’m not giving you any power, you’re in my space. And you don’t even have to leave because you don’t any power here. You’re irrelevant to me.” And I’d thought that to the energy, like, “You’re irrelevant. I don’t care. Be here, don’t be here, what do I care?” And then it just [inaudible]. And I’d say, so many people are afraid they’re going to run into something negative. But those things don’t have power. It comes back to a very NLP viewpoint. It’s like if something’s having power in my space, I don’t care what in me is letting it. And then how do I heal and change that? And usually, it’s pretty easy.

[82:04] Ashley James: I love it. That’s such a great reframe. 100% puts the power back in the person’s corner. I love it. Excellent. Well, I’m excited to learn this technique.


[82:16] Art Giser: So, the technique’s simple. So, people put their M, put their miraculous self in charge, and there’s no effort involved. The more playful people are, they can just pretend it’s happening. They don’t have to believe it’s happening. Just pretend it’s happening, and it will work. For this, we use the analogy or the metaphor of a magnet, because almost everybody played with a magnet when they were a child. And so, your unconscious mind, your conscious mind, a magnet is this thing that has powerful energies. And if you held up a magnet and held up a pin, all you have to do is let go of the pin and the magnet will pull it up. Pull it over to the magnet. So, this is wired into us. In this process, we’re going to use four magnets in all. So, I’d like people to go, “Okay. I’m putting my miraculous self in charge of what happens.” And then set your intention and give permission for your miraculous self to go through your energy field right now and identify energies that aren’t yours, aren’t in the present time and that energies that your miraculous self wants you to let go of right now. So, not saying everything. We’re not doing it perfectly, just give your miraculous self permission to go, “Okay. What energies do I want out of the energy field right now?”


And then imagine a magnet out in front of you, at least nine feet three meters out in front of you. And then give your miraculous self permission to use that magnet to release energies that aren’t yours from the front of your body and the front of your energy field. Your energy field goes completely around your body in all directions. Just imagine right now that any energies your miraculous self wants you to let go of are leaving your energy field and going to the magnet. And you don’t need to know what they are. I lie to entertain myself. I see little squiggles and shapes and clouds and stuff going off. But that’s because it amuses me. And if anybody feels any tug of war going on with energy, leave that alone for now. Just whatever just comes right off. And then you drop that magnet into the Earth and the Earth recycles the energy. And that means it either just turns it into pure energy or if it’s somebody else’s energy and it should go back to that person; it goes back to them. And just let the Earth figure that out. So, that’s the first magnet.

Put a second magnet high above your head at least nine feet three meters above your head. And it’s going to clear the top of your energy field. And again, your energy field is in you and around you. So, it’s going to start at your shoulders, go through your neck but a lot of energy is stuck in our heads, inside of our heads, in the forehead, in the back of the skull, in the scalp and going up above about nine feet three meters because there’s shockers or energy centers that go up that high above the body or higher. And just give your miraculous self permission now to use the magnet to release any energies from that whole upper part of your energy field in your head into the magnet and then drop that magnet into the center of the Earth and let the energies be recycled.

The third magnet is my favorite. Put it behind you. And if somebody is sitting behind you, don’t put it in their lap. Put it behind you. And it’s going to clear the back of your body and the back of your energy field. And a lot of energies hide behind our back, your head, your neck, your shoulder blades, behind your solar plexus, your abdomen, your hips, your thighs, your knees, calves, feet. Just put your miraculous self in charge and let it release any energy at once from the back of our body and the back of your energy field into the magnet. Drop that into the center of the Earth.

And then the last magnet, put that in the Earth and let it clear from the base of your spine down to your legs and your knees and your calves, your ankles, your feet, your toes, the soles of your feet, and even going down at least at least three meter below your feet and all around you. Let that magnet clear the whole bottom half of your energy field. Again, no effort. Just whatever comes off easily. And then that energy is recycled. And it isn’t just that other people’s energy is in our energy field. We leave our energy in other people’s energy field too. Sometimes, we’re trying to help them. Sometimes, we’re trying to change their minds. Sometimes, we’re mad at them. It can be for all kinds of different reasons. If you have very young children, it’s appropriate to have a lot of your energy in their space, and your miraculous self will figure that out. But let your miraculous self use the golden ball of energy floating high above your head, golden ball of energy. And let that act as a magnet. And let your miraculous self use that to retrieve your energy from wherever you’ve scattered it, past, present, future, at work, in your automobile, on planes, cars, buses, other people’s homes, your home, wherever you scattered it. And just let your miraculous self be in charge. And if some of your energy is in somebody else’s energy field trying to help them, your miraculous self will replace your energy with Earth and universal energies, which will help them and be even better for them.

So, let all the energy that your M wants to retrieve come into the gold ball. And then your M, your miraculous self, inspects the energy in the gold ball. And some of that energy may have come from your energy field but not be authentically your energy. So, any energy that isn’t authentically yours goes down into the Earth to be recycled. Your authentic energy gets cleaned up, made sparkling, gets activated. And then your authentic energy comes back down and fills your body and energy field. And we never want to leave empty spaces in our energy field, so let the gold ball and gold energy in, around and through your body filling up any spaces left with gold energy. Gold energy is very neutral, very spiritual energy. You can use it almost kind of like food. And then go ahead and stomp your feet, pat your body.

[90:37] Ashley James: Open your eyes.

[90:38] Art Giser: Open your eyes, yes. It can help to look around wherever you are and look at like what a fine detail and what you can see and hear. And if you’re sitting in a chair, what do you feel? Can you wiggle your toes and feel them [inaudible] ground everybody. And I’ll remind everybody that after this podcast if you’re doing anything that requires safety, your unconscious mind and your M will make sure you’re automatically safe and alert. So, how is that for you, Ashley?


[91:15] Ashley James: It was very cool. The first magnet, I felt like my skin on my cheeks was being pulled. I can feel stuff being pulled out of me. It was a feeling of tugging and pulling out. And I was leaning forward as I could feel it. And then the next one, the magnet above, I was like this is so hypnotic because I felt like my back straightened up. I became a foot taller sitting here. It was like – what do they call it when UFOs when they – like a beam pulling me. It was like the magnet was like that, a special tractor beam pulling me up. And it was a very cool feeling.

But then the second you said there are energies you have out there in other people, and all of a sudden, it was like I felt whole again. It happened like [inaudible] and it just pulled all my energy back to me that I’ve had scattered everywhere. And it was just in that instant and it was like I was at 25% battery life and all of a sudden, I got supercharged. It got all sucked back to me, and I felt it. I was like, “Woah.” And then right before you said gold energy filling your ball, my mind already did that. I just felt like a gold ball around me go, “Complete the shield. Got it. Fill the shield with gold. Got it.” And then you said that it was like, “Okay. Good. We’re doing this right.” But it felt amazing.

And that’s funny because – not to compare you to Eric Thorton, I mean you guys have your own unique set of skills. He said this to me specifically that I put my energy – for everyone, when we interact, we sometimes leave that [inaudible] to the energy with someone and to remember to pull it back because he noticed that with my – every time I do a podcast, I’d put all my energy into it and then hang up Skype and all my energy was left out there. And it was just kind of draining. For those who don’t know how to direct your energy, it’s just intention. When you bring awareness and attention, so I’d like to pull my energy back. And I was like, “Woah, man. That feels so good.” It would be a different experience for me pulling my energy back after completing an interview versus leaving it out there. I’d feel drained and exhausted after an interview versus feeling very uplifted. So, you’re confirming this for me, this idea that we can exercise just like we bathe every day, right, and wash our hands, that we can exercise energetic health habits to keep sanitary.

[94:13] Art Giser: Everything you’re saying is just so perfect. Because in Energetic NLP, we do have like a five-minute twice a day thing that people can do. And one big part of it is the magnets. And just to bring the magnets in the morning when you get up before you go to bed. I’m not a morning person. But when I wake up in the morning, I’ll do my magnets. And it’s like, “Hello world,” and the magnets and the gold ball. I sleep better if I do it before I go to bed at night. People can do it, let’s say they have an important presentation or meeting or sales call or they’re going to see their family. If you do it ahead of time, you’ll be much more resourceful. If you’ve gotten triggered, if you do it afterward, you’ll be much more resourceful. It’s fantastic around family. For most of us, even if your family is fantastic, they just tend to trigger us. I’ll teach people this and it makes the holidays so much better with your kids, with anybody you’re in a relationship with. It’s a handy-dandy Ginsu knife. You can use it for everything. And I love that you were doing things before I said it because that’s what happens in the program a lot. As people get more open energetically, like you are, they’ll often go, “I was doing everything right before you said it.” And I go, “That’s great. That’s perfect.”

So, let me review the steps for people. It’s really simple. So, the main thing is you put your miraculous self in charge. And again, that’s your inner wisdom and spirit working together, your miraculous self or just your M. You’re not trying to clear all the energies. You ask your M to identify what energies it wants you to release right now. And then one magnet’s in front of you. Release into that. Let that magnet go into the Earth and let the energy be recycled. One magnet high above your head. Send that into the Earth. One magnet behind you. Send that into the Earth. And then one magnet in the Earth that clears from the base of your spine down through your legs and feet, going down at least a meter three feet below your feet and your energy field all around you. So, that’s just four magnets.

And then the second part is really simple. The gold ball of energy over your head and you ask your miraculous self to retrieve your energy from wherever you’ve scattered it and let it go into the gold ball. And if your M thinks some of your energy [inaudible] young children. If your M wants to leave some of your energy in somebody else’s field, it will do that. That’s the right thing. Otherwise, it will replace your energy with Earth and universal energies, which will be better for them. As the energy comes back into your gold ball, it gets cleaned up, and the energy that’s not authentically you goes into the Earth. Your authentic energy comes down as being down into your body and energy field. And you never want to leave energy spaces. So, then you imagine gold energy just coming in and filling any spaces left in your body or energy field. And gold energy is a neutral, spiritual energy that we can use for all kinds of things. So, it’s not like having another person’s energy. And that’s it.


[97:44] Ashley James: I love it. Well, I’m so thankful that you came here to teach us this today. I feel really good. I feel like I just took an energetic shower. I feel really good. I hope everyone feels the same. I want to make sure the listeners know how they can learn more from you. So, your website is We’re going to make sure that all the links [inaudible] in today’s podcast at including the link to you on Facebook because I know I know you do a lot of Facebook Live. So, for those who want to continue learning from you on a somewhat daily basis, they can do that on Facebook Live. And tell us about your program. Tell us about your in-person program. Tell us about your online program just so we know that there is.

[98:32] Art Giser: Great. I’d love to. I have a number of different programs. So, sometimes I do one- and two-day workshops that people on my mailing list hear about it. And I do a lot of webinars online. And again, as people are experiencing now, the energies work no matter where you are. I’m in California, there are people in India, all over the world, and it works just the same as if we were in the same room. So, some of the work I do, it’s funny that you were talking about feeling all clean and sparkly because some of the work I do, I call energy spas. Energetic NLP energy spas. Because a number of my old clients – and I still haven’t figure out if they talked to each other, because these were all separate conversations – they would go, “Well, we love the training programs. But we love the one- and two-day workshops. It’s like going to the spa. We don’t have to think or work hard. We just get our energy fixed.” Not fixed, but work is done.

So, everything I do, there’s a mixture of the energy spas with – but then there’s concepts and training. And I teach people processes like the magnets that are easy to use that they can do on their own. I have several online programs that are a mixture of recorded videos and audios online plus group coaching sessions. And I was a little skeptical of how those would work, but they’ve worked fantastically well. And I have several different programs on that. One is to strengthen the connection with the miraculous self so there are more guidance and support. Another one is offering your gifts to the world, which is to help people in their careers or businesses. Be out there more. And there are several others.

People want to work intensely with me, I have something that’s called “The Transformation Accelerator Program,” which is online but it’s real time. They do get recordings and a whole membership site to work with too, but then we do one-on-one sessions together. But my absolute favorite thing in the world, we call it the “M Club,” from miraculous self. And it’s a yearlong program where – I used to do all this Level 1, Level 2, Level 3, Level 4, Level 5 programs. They were all four-day programs. And it worked well. But it always felt a little – not quite out of integrity – but a little off to me because I didn’t think it should be divided like that. If somebody realizes that Energetic NLP is for them, I want them not to get little tiny pieces. I want them to get the whole thing if it’s possible. I mean, it’s endless but I want them to get to an amazing point. So, I’ve started doing a yearlong program, which is a mixture of three retreats plus monthly online classes and sessions and energy spas. And that’s called the M Club.

And anybody interested in that, we can have a link to where they would fill out a questionnaire that people find very helpful, that helps them clarify where they are in their life, where they want to be. And then when they have a phone conversation with me, or somebody really advanced in Energetic NLP – probably me but it could be some other people that work with me that are really good – we’ll go over it and we do an energy reading of them, and it can help them decide if any of the Energetic NLP programs are a really good fit for them. And like I said, this M Club, some of the people in it were in the old design of the Level 1, 2 and 3, and they’re just – he says modestly – they’re thrilled, amazed at the level of progress because having it one continuous program, the momentum builds and builds and builds and builds and builds. And the energy of the group is building. They’re all doing amazing work. Even the people at the beginning, we thought they weren’t going to be able to do it.

And the other thing is we form a community that is a bit similar to the NLP community but kind of on steroids. So, people make these incredible friendships. But I have really good friends that if I’m having a problem in my life or an opportunity, they’ll cheer me on or they’ll go, “Poor, Art.” But my Energetic NLP friends and community, they’ll work with my energy, they’ll coach me. They have these amazing skills. Like right now, actually, one of us in the hospital. As you mentioned before, cancer can come up real suddenly and boom, Stage 4, and having to have surgery and all of this. We’re all working with her energetically. Before the surgery, we worked with the doctors in the operating room clearing the energies. We worked with them during the recovery and we’ll continue to work with her. We’ve had other people in the group who have had life-threatening diseases and other serious problems. And the support that they got from the group was a completely transformed the experience.

One woman, they thought her husband was going to die. I mean, the doctor, at one point, said he is going to die. And she was using her skills from Energetic NLP, but we were all like supporting her. And he’s now running 10Ks. He’s fine. But she was amazing. Through the whole thing, she was just solid and grounded and able to handle whatever came up. I mean, it was so impressive. And she credited using Energetic NLP but also all of our support. And on the lighter side, some of this people, we have a private Facebook group where they might put in, “Oh, I have a job interview or I’m giving a presentation, or I have a date.” And people [inaudible] the energy. So, this isn’t just problems. It’s opportunities too. And having that kind of community is mind-boggling. The security and the support and the fun, it adds to life. There’s a lot of people who are fun too. And the thing that’s even greatest, often they’ll say we’ll get on the phone with one another or on the internet. But if they can’t, somebody would just put it on Facebook and then you start seeing responses come in, Oh, I worked on this and this. And somebody goes, “Yeah, I worked on this. And do this and do that.” So, it’s phenomenal.


[105:38] Ashley James: That’s wonderful. Would you be comfortable sharing with us the price or sort of more details around that?


[105:47] Art Giser: They range from things that are free to inexpensive. The M Club can be as much as $13,000 for a year program though there are different discounts that people would be able to get. But that’s the most expensive program. Some of the five-week programs are more in the $900 range. Like I’m doing a weekend workshop in London this coming weekend [inaudible]. I do a lot of work in London. And it’s $250 or something. So, it depends. It’s all over the place. I do lots of free webinars. It’s important to me that everybody can get help. But with the M Club, some of these people, “Oh, $13,000.” But they get a ton. Every month, there’s a three-and-a-half-hour online class. There’s an hour-and-a-half class. There’s an energy spa session. There’s a blessing. There are three retreats. They get a lot along with a whole online membership site where everything’s recorded and they can 24/7, if they need a particular thing, they can use it. I’m proud of it.

Before this program, I was afraid to do a yearlong program. It’s like people won’t commit. It’s such a big commitment. People would pay more to do five-, four-day programs than to do the whole thing. But it’s just easier in people’s minds. Finally, I got inspired by one of my mentors, a woman named Lisa Sasevich. She said, to get the transformation people that you want them to have, [inaudible] I can give a talk and people can get transformation. But to get one, I want them to have – okay. If I have them for a year, they’re going to open their abilities. They’ll be in an amazing place in a year. And I decided, “Okay. It’s a year program. I don’t care if it’s the most marketable.” One of my colleagues is going, “Why make it six months? [inaudible] money, people will commit more easily.” And I went, “That’s a great idea. It’s a year program.” 


[108:30] Ashley James: Because you want to help people, and that’s what you see is working?


[108:33] Art Giser: Yeah. In a year. And I’m so glad that I did because we’re just finishing up the first year of it. And they were all in a great place in six months, but they’re in a way better place now. And every day, they’re moving. And I realized, I want them to get this incredible life transformation. And as I mentioned earlier, what’s interesting about it, as you know, even if they’re really changing, because they’re being who they really are, both amazing spiritual being they are but also who they are personality-wise, not all the programming, the changes are very comfortable because it just feels right. It’s kind of like if you’ve ever gotten really good bodywork, it feels different to stand and move but it feels right.


[108:33] Ashley James: Right. That makes sense. But I like that you have a ton of free stuff and you have a lot of very affordable few-hundred-dollar experiences, both in person and online. And so, people can start where they’re comfortable and move from there. And if those who want to jump in and transform their life the whole year working with you, then they can do that too. I like your format. That’s very cool. You mentioned that there were some specials. Is there a special that you would be able to give our listeners? Or is there a special coupon code or something that you can provide the listeners?


[110:06] Art Giser: Yes, I will get you a coupon code.


[110:10] Ashley James: Great. I love using the coupon code LTH. So, if you can use that, that would be wonderful. I try to help all my listeners get some kind of savings for jumping in because one of the – I get a lot of great feedback from my listeners; one is listener say that they’ll listen to an episode two or three times and take notes. So, I started to have the episodes transcribed. And then some people say that they can’t believe how many things they’ve bought, how many books and programs – and they love it because it transformed their life. But they’re like “I can’t believe it now I own a sauna and a water purifier”, and they just go down the list. It’s funny because everything that I recommend, I also have in my home that’s helped my health too. So, I only recommend what I believe in. But when it comes to a guest sharing their programs, I love for guests to give discounts since my listeners are so proactive and will join you, it would be great if you could help them in that way. So, coupon code LTH. Thank you so much for giving a discount special to my listeners, because I know that they’re very proactive and would love to learn more from you.


[111:25] Art Giser: And I’ll figure out the exact discount on other things. But for the M Club, I would give them a $2,000 discount for being one of your listeners.


[111:33] Ashley James: Thank you so much. I appreciate that gift to them. And I know that they’ll get a lot out of working with you. So, it’s a great win-win. Art, we could talk for hours. Thank you so much for coming on the show. This has been wonderful. Is there anything left unsaid from today? Is there anything that you’d like to make sure that you say to wrap up today’s interview?


[112:00] Art Giser: Yeah, just a couple of things. One, again, everybody has miraculous abilities, so that anybody who feels a draw to developing them, just know that you can do it. Like anything else, there’ll be certain areas that will be more natural or a better fit. But everybody can do miraculous things. And the other is one of my goals is that people do not just know intellectually but know in their body that they are a vast, beautiful, powerful being. And to me, the goal in life is to keep manifesting more and more of that in my life. And that’s what I want for people in my programs to get it like what recognizes them. It’s just a small portion of an amazing vaster being. And the more of that that you manifest and embody, the more miraculous and incredible and joyful your life gets.


[113:01] Ashley James: Wonderful. I wish that for all those who are listening, that they have an even more miraculous and beautiful life filled with joy and transformative experiences. And I know that by learning more from you will accomplish that. Thank you again for coming on the show. You’re welcome back anytime you want to come and teach. Yes, we’d love to have you back. Thank you so much.


[113:25] Art Giser: Thank you. This is fantastic. And what you’re doing with your show is such a gift to people. So, I want to honor that, and keep it up.


[113:36] Ashley James: Hello, True Health Seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition and how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity? Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business, support people in their success? Do you love helping people? You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrated Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program, and it blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over 100 dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition. But from a standpoint of how we can help people to shift their life and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health, I recommend that you check them out. You can Google Institute for Integrated Nutrition or IIN and give them a call, or you can go to and you can receive a free module of their training. Go check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in. Be sure to mention my name, Ashley James, and the Learn True Health podcast because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It changed my life to be in that program. And I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information. We need more health coaches. Health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctor’s offices, you can work in hospitals, you can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help your local schools shift their programs to help children be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success and their health goals.

There are so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach. So, check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrated Nutrition. Mention my name, get the best deal. Give them a call, and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes is starting at the end of the month. So, you’re going to want to call them now and check it out. And if you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding, and you get to help so many people.

Are you looking to optimize your health? Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price for high-quality supplements and to talk to someone about what supplements are best for you, go to and one of our fantastic True Health coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are the highest quality and the best price. That’s That’s Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program.

Get Connected With Art Geiser!


Energetic NLP on Facebook

Art Geiser on Facebook

Recommended Readings by Art Geiser

An End to Upside Down Thinking by Mark Gober

Reframing by Richard Bandler and John Grinder

Frogs Into Princes by John Stevens




Become A Health Coach-Learn More About The Institute for Integrative Nutrition's Health Coaching Certification Program by checking out these four resources:

1) Integrative Nutrition's Curriculum Guide:

2) The IIN Curriculum Syllabus:

3) Module One of the IIN curriculum:

4) Get three free chapters of Joshua Rosenthal's book:

Watch my little video on how to become a Certified Health Coach!


Learn How To Achieve Optimal Health From Naturopathic Doctors!

Get Learn True Health's Seven-Day Course For FREE! Visit


Do You Have Anxiety? End Anxiety Now! Learn Two Powerful Mind Tricks for Removing Anxiety, Ending Worry, & Controlling Fear So It Stops Controlling You! Attend my FREE Webinar that Will Teach You How! Click Here!

Need Help Ordering The Right Supplements For You?

Visit, and a FREE health coach will help you!

Do you have a blood sugar issue? I can help you achieve healthy, normal and balanced blood sugar naturally!

Visit for your free 30min coaching call with Ashley James!

Join Learn True Health's Facebook community group!
or search Learn True Health on Facebook!


If this episode made a difference in your life, please leave me a tip in the virtual tip jar by giving my podcast a great rating and review in iTunes!

Thank you!
Ashley James

Enjoyed this podcast episode? Visit my website Learn True Health with Ashley James so you can gain access to all of my episodes and more!

Follow the Learn True Health podcast on social media! Share with your friends and spread the word! Let's all get healthier & happier together!

Learn True Health - Facebook:
Learn True Health - Twitter:
Learn True Health - Medium:
Learn True Health - Pinterest:
Learn True Health - YouTube:



Music used Aurora by Jonny Easton
Check out his channel Link:

May 22, 2019



Intellibed® has sold 10,000 beds to highly satisfied customers (including myself!). Bob Rasmussen, founder and chief engineer, sits with us to talk about the science behind their beautiful bed design and how it ensures deep, healing sleep.


[00:00:03] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is Episode 355.

I am so excited about today’s interview. I have had butterflies in my stomach. I’ve been looking forward to talking with Bob Rasmussen, who is the founder of Intellibed®. My new favorite obsession. I’m excited to talk with you today, Bob. Thank you so much for taking time at your busy schedule to be with us today.


[00:00:39] Bob Rasmussen: It’s totally my pleasure, and I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you. I’m glad you had such a positive experience with Intellibed®.


[00:00:46] Ashley James: Absolutely. But before we dive into your story, which is a very interesting one, I want to share my experience.

Back in I think 2012-2013, somewhere around there, my husband and I invested several thousand dollars in what we thought was going to be a bed to last us for ten years or more—a top-of-the-line mattress. Two years later, it was warped, and I was so disappointed. I bought it from one of the major big box stores.

I noticed that my sleep was totally off. We were very disappointed with this mattress, and we called them up because we remember some guarantee or warranty. We felt misled because they said, “It’s retrograde, so we’re just going to give you a discount off the next when you buy from us.” And I thought, “What in the world! Why would I buy another mattress from you guys when the mattress you sold us didn’t even last two years?”

We ended up buying a memory topper from Costco to try to make this mattress last longer because we didn’t know where to turn. We keep going around to these big box stores, lying on different mattresses, and we weren’t really happy, and we’re kind of gun shy at this point.

Our sleep got worse and worse, and then, of course, we had a kid, so now our sleep was totally messed up. I noticed that I was going to the chiropractor sometimes two or three times a week, but once a week I was going to the chiropractor because I’d wake up in pain and I’d wake up with my neck out.

I just blamed early motherhood—I’m under a lot of stress. We got a baby, and we run a business. I didn’t blame the mattress. We were sleeping on what I didn’t realize was toxic memory foam.

Starting the podcast three years ago, I was diving more into the health space, and I kept hearing about organic beds and how these off-gassing mattresses could off-gas cancer-causing chemicals. I started to get more concerned, so we were looking for the last three years for a good mattress.

We ended up buying one that was advertised to us on Facebook as a new age mattress with really fancy advertising. I’m sure everyone listening has seen their advertisements on Facebook. Really clever videos. It came rolled up, and we had the worst sleep on it. I couldn’t believe it. We were able to return it. Thank goodness!

Right after that, Robyn Openshaw, who’s been a guest on my show—I’ve been on her show. She’s been on mine. She’s “green smoothie girl,” very famous in the holistic health space. She and I become good friends, and she told me about Intellibed®. She said, “This is the last mattress you will ever buy.” I couldn’t believe it. I’m like, “Really? Is this hype?” She goes, “No, this is the last mattress. You will sleep on this mattress for the rest of your life. It will never warp. It is the best sleep you will ever have.”

She says everyone she knows buys an Intellibed® and loves it. This company is ethical. It’s non-toxic. It has a ton of science behind it. I was excited to hear that, but I felt like I’ve been burned by mattress companies in the past.

I jumped in. We got our Intellibed®. I think we’ve been sleeping for it for about 40 nights now. It is the most magical experience I’ve ever had. I go to bed lying on my back or lying on my side, and I wake up, and it’s morning. I can’t believe that I’m no longer waking up through the night. I’m not in pain. Ever since we got the Intellibed®, I have not once been to the chiropractor.

I love my chiropractor, but I was in almost constant pain, constantly going to the chiropractor because my mattress was throwing my back out or throwing my neck out, and I didn’t realize it.

The Intellibed® has solved my sleep issues, solved the pain in the morning. I’m not in pain stiff in the morning. I don’t go to the chiropractor. This is amazing. My husband has had the same experience.

But I also love your pillows because I’ve had really difficult times with pillows. Pillows are so weird. They’re often full of dust mites, and we’ve had to do things like put our pillows in the freezer to try to kill the dust mites because my son is allergic to dust mites.

Your pillows are non-toxic. They won’t harbor dust mites. It feels like it’s holding me in the perfect position. I’m so thankful that I found you guys. I’m so excited for you to share the information that you’re here to share today because you have so much information about the toxicity of mattresses and all the science that goes behind creating a mattress that gives perfect sleep.

But also your mattresses are perfect for those who are disabled or who are elderly or who are hospitalized because they will not create bedsores. I’m excited to learn all about this and hear your story.

Thank you for letting me share my story, but also I want to let all listeners know that this is an incredible company, and I’m so thankful that I was introduced to you guys. So thank you for what you have created here today.


[00:06:29] Bob Rasmussen: It’s always so gratifying to me to hear your story and to hear stories like this. I’ve been at this for almost 20 years now; and I can tell you in all honesty that most of the people that we talked to, we sold tens of thousands of these beds, most of them have an experience very similar to yours. They tried a number of beds with frustration. They didn’t know where to turn, and it’s not that these other companies are trying to dope you or fool you. It’s just simply that they don’t have the kind of materials that Intellibed® has available to them to build a mattress that’s going to provide the proper support and comfort that you need. I’m excited about the opportunity to share science with your listeners.


[00:07:17] Ashley James: Absolutely. Now, I always thought I like the soft mattress because I want to feel like I’m on a cloud. I don’t want to feel anything poking me when I’m sleeping. A hard mattress is such a disappointment. When I go to hotels, and it just had a hard mattress, I’m always stiff. And so I’ve always acquitted a firm mattress with something negative.

But your mattress is both. It feels like a paradox. Your mattress is firm, but it also feels like I’m floating on top of it and it’s cushioning me. It gives that proper balance between firmness and then making sure that doesn’t create any pressure points which I love.

We’re going to get into the science of it, but first I want to hear your story. What led you to design the Intellibed® in such a way that has helped so many people?


[00:08:17] Bob Rasmussen: I went to school and graduated as an engineer, and immediately went into the corporate world. I spent ten years working as a design engineer for Fortune 50 company Honeywell. I spent ten years there and then was bitten by the entrepreneurial bug.

A good friend of mine was in the process of starting a new research and development company. I ended up being his second employee, and we worked together. One of the first projects that we worked on was a new, advanced, composite, injection moldable wheelchair, and that led us to work on wheelchair cushions because one thing that we’d learned early on was that the state-of-the-art wheelchair cushions that people were using weighed about as much as this new wheelchair we were working on.

We thought, “Wow! One of the things that helps these paraplegics and quadriplegics is to lighten the load, to make these things lighter, and it was just counter-intuitive to think that we were going to put a little wheelchair cushion on that that weighed as much as this wheelchair.”

And so that is what launched this company into high tech cushioning. We ended up developing a newly designed wheelchair cushion that was less than half the weight of the current technology. But the salient point of that whole experience is that what’s launched me into a career of high tech cushion. We built that company up. We ended up selling it. But I knew at that time that the next project that we would work on was a replacement for foam and mattresses.

It had been many years, really probably since the 60s when memory foam was introduced to mattresses, since anything innovative had come to the mattress industry. That was the design or the strategy of this company—to pick a category or an industry that was ripe for innovation, and then see if we could come up with something better.

That led into probably a four-year development phase to come up with this foam replacement which led to the invention of this Gel MatrixTM material. The company consigned several patents, filed for several patents for this technology, and they tried to take it to market. Back in 2000, I was blessed with the opportunity to acquire this technology, and I started Intellibed®. And so were it not for this technology, I would not be in the mattress industry.

You’re going to learn today the science behind what makes this so different, so revolutionary, so breakthrough, and why so many people are just thrilled about what this new bed is doing for them.


[00:11:30] Ashley James: We have a page, On there, there are two videos. One is you giving a webinar, which is fantastic. I love it. It’s about 20 minutes long. And then the other one is a detailed informational video that is riveting. I like both of them, and I asked Intellibed® to put those videos on the page that also gives the special that you’re offering all the Learn True Health listeners, which I’m very excited about.

It’s a 10% discount; free shipping; two of your Intellibed® pillows, the intelliPILLOWS, which I’m a big fan of; and then a free mattress protector. That’s available for those in the US. You shipped to those in the US. Those in Canada can get shipping, might not be the same special, but please still go to to get the information and call the phone number.

In those videos, you were sharing some very interesting information. One of them is how you measure pressure points. In the four years of the development that took to make Intellibed®, can you talk a bit about the science and the technology that went into trying to figure out how to design a bed that would be perfect for posture and perfect for pressure points?


[00:13:05] Bob Rasmussen: Yes, the science that you’re talking about are these pressure-mapping devices. These are $10,000 mats that you can put on top of a sleep surface, on top of a mattress, and it measures the interface pressure across your entire body. What you will see is any place where the pressure would get to be uncomfortable. We have pressure mapped tens of thousands of customers of all different shapes and sizes. That helped validate that we had something different.

In fact, the first licensor of the Gel MatrixTM technology was a company called Gaymar, who was later purchased by Stryker Industries, one of the largest medical component supplier in the world. This Gel MatrixTM technology was curing bedsores that other beds were causing, which was almost unheard of to have a non-mechanical system, meaning that there’s no pumps, no error, nothing mechanical, just the material itself that was curing bedsores—up to stage 4 bedsores. It’s important to know what causes a bedsore in this discussion because that’s what happens when we’re sleeping.

A bedsore is caused by excessive pressure on the tissue. What happens is the blood supply is cut off from the tissue, which results in the tissue dying. It dies from the inside out because there are no nutrients there. After a couple of hours, you can start to develop a bedsore.

What happens when you’re sleeping is that your body knows that if you have these excessive pressure points, as you would typically see on your hips and shoulders, from these other technologies; what happens is your brain wakes you up; it disturbs you from the deeper sleeping or the stages of sleep; so that you turn over.

You might think that you slept all night, but if your sleep is fragmented, what happens is you don’t complete your sleep cycles. It takes about 90 minutes for us to complete a sleep cycle. Typically, through a normal night, we’ll have four to five of these 90-minute sleep cycles. If you’re not completing those – in other words, if your sleep is fragmented caused by tossing and turning or any of these other sleep interrupters that tend to bother us. Let’s say you’re a light sleeper and your partner moves and it wakes you up. Or you sleep hot, and you’re sleeping hot, and you’re sweating at night, and it wakes you up. Then you’re likely not completing these sleep cycles.

And that is significantly detrimental to your health. Many of the autoimmune diseasesheart disease, diabetes, and these disease states are caused specifically by not getting the stages 3 and 4 or the delta sleep that we need in the bottom of these sleep cycle. It’s critical that the sleep surface provides enough pressure relief that you’re not tossing and turning all night.

Back to your original thought, that we had done all these pressure mapping, what we were doing was validating the ability of this technology to relieve those pressure points that other mattresses cause. The result was that we see a significant reduction in tossing and turning. We see the kind of results that Stryker was proving with curing bedsores that these other beds create.


[00:17:16] Ashley James: That’s amazing. Have you done sleep studies or had people’s brains hooked up to something to determine that they are going through their sleep cycles? Can you tell us about other scientific ways that you measured that the Intellibed® is improving people’s sleep?


[00:17:35] Bob Rasmussen: We did a study jointly with a Stanford-trained sleep scientist, Dr. Robert Trall, out of Las Vegas. We had one of the really expensive memory foam beds, and one of the air chamber beds, and our bed in his facility.

What he did in the study was, half the night, he would put them on one of these other beds all wired up so they can measure their brain waves and validate whether or not people were getting into the delta stages of sleep, stages 3 and 4. And then the other half of the night, they put them on an Intellibed®.

He came out the end of that study and said without a question that the Intellibed® provides the best sleep efficiency of any bed that he has seen, and so he endorses that bed. That’s the nearest thing to an actual sleep study that we’ve done. Most of the evidence that we have is just anecdotal, like your experience. They’re talking about how much better they’re sleeping, waking up refreshed, not waking up with pain, and so forth.


[00:18:52] Ashley James: What I found interesting is I am now waking up before my alarm clock. We have a 7 A.M. alarm clock Monday through Friday, and I’m waking up fully refreshed. I opened my eyes, and I had this moment of panic. “Did I forget to set the alarm? Oh, my gosh! I must have slept in.” Because I feel so refreshed, I feel like I slept in, and then I looked at my phone and saw the time, and I’m like, “Oh! I woke up refreshed before the alarm.” I feel like I’m on vacation. I just got 9, 10 hours of sleep because I feel so good. It boggles my mind. When you say sleep efficiency, that does make sense. It’s very cool.

Is there anything else that you love discovering in the early years of creating Intellibed® when it came to sleep or when it came to the technology that you put into creating these mattresses?


[00:19:51] Bob Rasmussen: When we saw the ability of this material to relieve pressure, we just got so excited about it and knew that we were on to something different. I always knew one of the great benefits of having consulted with doctors and specifically physical therapists, chiropractors, literally thousands of different medical professionals, is that it’s an extremely challenging and difficult task to support and comfort the human body properly.

First of all, our bodies. If you think of the density of our body, starting from our head, the densest and heaviest part of our body’s our lower torso, and that is exactly where we need the support, right? When we talk about support in the mattress, let me be clear what we mean by that. We mean that the mattress can’t allow the hips to sag further into the bed than any other part of the body.

If you think about standing up straight, your head is centered above your shoulders, and your hips are centered beneath your shoulders. That is the proper posture. When you lie down, you have to maintain that same posture.

But because our bodies have these different densities, gravity is pulling on our lower torso harder than the rest of our body, and so the midsection of the body wants to sag further into the bed than the rest of the body. And that’s exactly the opposite of what you want to happen.

The experience that you had waking up with back pain, I can guarantee you that was caused by the fact that the mattress that you had not purchased that long ago was sagging more in the middle because if you think about it, that’s also where all the work is happening in the mattress, right?

The heaviest part of the body and the center of the bed is where the mattress is doing all the work. The materials in the bed are breaking down faster in the center of the bed than the rest of the bed, causing the hips to sag into this misalignment.

For many of us, just a very slight misalignment has total devastating effects on us. We’re starting to wake up with back pain. As you said, it’s very common that people will associate that with them getting older or having kids or some other external factor, but don’t blame it on their mattress because they know they bought a mattress that’s going to last for ten plus years, right? That’s what the warranty said.

But the truth of the matter is that the materials that are used in most of the beds, even the very expensive beds begin to break down quickly. It’s that breakdown that causes all the problem. Because it breaks down more in the center of the bed, at least with this misalignment that we are talking about, where the hips start to sag into the bed, and the most important thing that the mattress needs to do is to prevent that from happening.

One of the other very synergistic benefits that we learned early on is that this Gel MatrixTM material doesn’t break down as foam does. We did significant durability testing on this, and now we have 20 years of experience with that out in the field, and we see less than 5% of breakdown of this material over the life of the bed. Whereas with these other materials, even most of the dense foams, they’ll soften 20-40% over the first two years. So your experience is exactly a result of sleeping on inferior materials that can’t possibly provide long-term comfort and support. One of the significant breakthroughs of Gel MatrixTM material is it does not soften like these other materials tend to.


[00:23:52] Ashley James: The number of mattresses that people go through in their lifetime considering how quickly they breakdown, it’s not very good for our environment. Your mattress which lasts over 20 years, people would be using fewer mattresses, so that’s better for the environment.

I came across someone recently who knew you and knew your story. I’m not going to tell your story, but I’m going to ask you. Could you tell the story? He told me that you have one of the first Intellibed® you guys created, and that you’ve slept on it for I guess 20 years now, and that you brought it back in to have it tested to see how much it has warped. It was quite surprising what you discovered. Can you tell that story?


[00:24:45] Bob Rasmussen: Yeah. You could not tell that that bed has been slept on. Honestly, I pulled the mattress protector off, and it looked as good as it did the day that I brought it home. There’s a couple of reasons for this.

First of all, the foundation of Intellibed® besides the Gel MatrixTM material, is we used tempered steel inner springs for support. We use an individually pocketed coil with high-density springs that don’t break down. What that does is it prevents the hips from sagging; and because of the durability these tempered steel inner springs, they don’t sag over time.

Second thing is that the Gel MatrixTM is so resilient. It just continues to rebound with the same force over and over again. And so yeah, I slept on that bed for so long because I’ve been telling people that this stuff is not going to breakdown and they were very skeptical about it.

It looks like, the configuration of it would be prone to breaking down, but it doesn’t. That’s the remarkable thing about this material–it is so resilient. We call it a Gel MatrixTM. It’s a very soft, supple, but really strong rubber that resists fatigue. It will bounce back over and over again without the breakdown that you see in these other beds.

When I open that bed up that I’ve been on for—actually, I’ve got two that I talked about when I speak of the durability of the beds. One of them is one of the first toppers that ever came off our production line, and that topper is in one of my bedrooms that’s slept on regularly. That topper is over 20 years old, and it feels as good as the day that I brought it home.

The other one, I started sleeping on in 2005. The only reason that I switched is that we developed this new high-end bed that had 1-1/2 layers of Gel MatrixTM in there, and I wanted to see how that held up. So two and a half years ago, I switched beds. That’s when I brought this one I’ve been sleeping on for so long, opened it up and tested it. It was remarkable.


[00:27:10] Ashley James: When you say test it, you have machines that measure the amount of distortion in the mattress?


[00:27:19] Bob Rasmussen: The first thing that you do in anybody who’s had problems with their mattress knows that you put a straight edge across the mattress and you measure the depths of the indentation. Most manufacturers say that if it’s an inch or an inch and a half or two inches. If it’s more than that, then it’s covered under warranty.

The first thing that you could do is visually inspect the bed. You can see whether or not there’s a body impression on it. You can push on it across the surface of the bed and feel if there are soft spots. So all those things that we did.

We take the cover off and inspect the gel itself. The gel looks as pristine as it did the day it came off the factory floor. That’s what the testing consists about. There were no soft spots in the bed. In other words, we felt across the entire surface of the bed directly on the Gel MatrixTM material, and it felt identical across the entire surface of the bed.

And I’d been sleeping on it. It felt to me as good as it did when I first brought it home which as you well know that’s very unusual in most of the beds that we slept on because the materials break down so quickly, it doesn’t feel anything like the bed did when we first brought it home, right? It’s like, “What happened to this bed? It must be me. I must be getting older because there’s no possible way this thing could be breaking down this quickly.” But it’s true.

The testing that we have done especially on these memory foam products, these polyurethane foam products, even the high-end latex products, even though they don’t lose their lath, they will soften considerably. As mentioned, they soften more in the center of the bed because that’s all where all the work’s happening, and that’s what causes your hips to sag further into the bed causing this misalignment. And then you’re waking up with back pain. It’s like, “Geez! I must be getting old because my bed is not old.”


[00:29:22] Ashley James: Right and we blame ourselves and not the bed. A lot of people don’t realize that their bed could be their problem. A lot of people like me go towards memory foam or memory foam toppers because they’re fairly affordable. If your bed feels uncomfortable, you go Costco and buy some 2-inch or even a 4-inch memory foam topper, and now it feels like you have a memory foam bed.

But the video that’s on the page talks about Australia and what happened with memory foam. Can you talk about that? Because it’s very concerning and I didn’t realize how much VOCs, how much off-gassing and dangerous chemicals we’re breathing in when we have memory foam.


[00:30:17] Bob Rasmussen: Yeah, so for the benefit of your listeners, VOC stands for Volatile Organic Compound. It simply means materials that can easily leech out of the bed and become airborne, and you’re breathing those things. When you’re on your bed at night, you have your face buried into the pillows and the mattresses, and so you’re breathing in those off-gassing materials.

Polyurethane foam in and of itself is non-toxic. It’s inert, meaning that it won’t react chemically with anything else that’s out there. The problem that we’ve caused ourselves since the Federal Government got involved and put these stringent requirements on mattresses so that they wouldn’t burn up in a fire. They started adding chemicals to the base polyurethane foam, and then somebody got the brilliant idea to try and change the properties of the materials. They added chemicals to cause the foam to slow rebound instead of rebound initially.

Unfortunately, mattress manufacturers, they have to meet this burn standard, but they don’t have to disclose the various materials that are used. Many of the fire retardants, in fact, most of the fire retardants that are used in foam are known carcinogens. Not all of them, but many of them are.

The problem that you have is you can’t figure out what is in those foams; what is off-gassing. You can smell it because there’s a terrible odor that comes off it, but you don’t know what those materials are, so you don’t know if they’re toxic or not.

Again most of the stuff that you see on the internet is anecdotal—people complaining of headaches and dizziness and the long-term effects of cancer and so forth caused by these materials. The challenge for the consumers and I tell people this all the time, “Listen, if you can’t identify what specifically the fire retardants are in the bed and what materials that they used to change the properties of the foam, you probably avoid that bed.”

It’s nearly impossible to figure that stuff out because even if the manufacturer were to disclose that, what’s the likelihood that they’ve trained their sales reps to teach the consumer what’s being off-gassed?

So what you need to do is you need to find a company that has done all that work for you and is committed to developing the safest sleeping surfaces that are out there. And that’s one thing that I’m proud of we’ve gone through—invented every single component that we put in these beds.

I can tell you first of all, that the Gel MatrixTM material is completely non-toxic. The main ingredient in Gel MatrixTM is food grade mineral oil, and the core material itself, the base material has been approved for use in baby bottle nipples and many children’s toys. It’s been cytotoxicity tested and hemolysis tested. It scores zero on those tests, so it’s completely non-toxic.

There are no side effects in our manufacturing facility. We don’t have to have our workers wear gas masks or anything like that. It’s among the safest materials that have been brought to the market.

Of course, tempered steel inner springs don’t off-gas anything, and the little bit of foam that we use in the beds have all been pure tested to be free from any fire retardants and any of these dangerous memory foam type chemicals. The way that we passed the standard for the burn test is we use a silica fiber wrap, a shield that goes around the outside of the mattress that prevents the flames from getting inside the bed. So that’s what we’ve done.

We’re proud of the fact that even though these beds—we would not classify them as organic beds, and I can talk about organic beds here in a minute—they’re not what you would typically consider organic, but far more important that they are non-toxic.


[00:35:07] Ashley James: The Intellibed® is non-toxic. I know it has a 100% organic cotton cover.


[00:35:11] Bob Rasmussen: Correct.


[00:35:12] Ashley James: We’ll get into organic in a second. There’s an interesting story about Australia and how they discovered that the memory foam beds were linked to sudden infant death. Do you have more details about that?


[00:35:34] Bob Rasmussen: Yeah, there was a 10-year study by Dr. James Sprott, and it wasn’t necessarily the memory foam. What happened was there was specifically the antimony that was a fire retardant in the mattresses that’s causing a chemical reaction and producing toxic gas. And so this Dr. Sprott surmised that if he were able to keep these off-gassing materials from leeching out of the bed, it would solve the problem with crib death or with SIDS.

What he did was he wrapped the crib mattresses in an impermeable barrier that would keep anything off-gassing from the mattress inside the bed, and in 10 years, the incidence of SIDS dropped to zero.


[00:36:32] Ashley James: In all of Australia?


[00:36:34] Bob Rasmussen: Yeah. Well, in all of his test subjects in 10 years, there was not a single death that occurred due to SIDS death. With that question, if you Google James Sprott, his study will come up. He makes the point in his opening paragraph that most people don’t think that the cause of SIDS is known, and he says that it is not true. It’s caused by toxic nerve gases that are produced from these various chemicals, antimony specifically identifies, this material would off-gas this poison gas, and that’s what was causing the SIDS.

It’s a really interesting study. Interestingly, here in the United States, it’s not generally accepted, but I don’t know how you could argue with the results. I don’t know how many test subjects that he had, but the incident of crib death dropped to zero in 10 years, so it’s pretty clear that it’s an off-gassing issue from the mattresses that the babies were sleeping on.


[00:38:09] Ashley James: That makes total sense. It’s so sad how many people have toxic mattresses and how many health issues they’re causing. We are the most vulnerable when we sleep. That’s when our body is regenerating. We spend, hopefully, seven or eight hours a day on a mattress, but we’re breathing in these chemicals. They aren’t off-gassing just when it smells, they’re off-gassing for years. That’s what we have to understand is that the mattress you bought a few years ago could still be off-gassing chemicals and harming you.


[00:38:44] Bob Rasmussen: Exactly. Don’t be fooled about that. They’ll continue to off-gas for many years.


[00:38:52] Ashley James: Let’s talk about organic mattresses because that’s something that I look into. First of all, they’re quite expensive. Although on Amazon, you can buy “organic,” some kind of latex organic—that’s what they claimed it is. I almost bought one. Thank goodness, I didn’t—some organic mattresses have wool in them, or they’re kind of like futons filled with cotton or “organic” latex.

Tell us about these mattresses that claim that they’re organic versus an Intellibed®?


[00:39:33] Bob Rasmussen: There are a lot of different styles of these beds and different materials that are used in the bed. Most of them used organic latex material. The problem with the organic latex material is that it simply breaks down too quickly.

You talk about these other polyurethane foams and memory foam which breakdown 20-40% over the first couple of years. The organic beds will break down even faster than that. So you spent 4, 5, 6, $8,000 on one of those beds and it is unsleepable after a couple of years. I’ve just had multiple reports from people that have spent a lot of money on these things, and they break down too quickly. Although you solve one of your problems, you get rid of the toxicity in your bedroom, you create a whole slew of other problems because you’re losing support, you’re waking up with back pain, and you’re losing your comfort.


[00:40:32] Ashley James: We need to have clean materials, and we need to have the science behind the mattress to make sure that we have the perfect sleep posture and the support so that we don’t create those pressure points which is what you’ve gone for with Intellibed®.


[00:40:48] Bob Rasmussen: Yeah and that’s what I’m excited to talk to you about.


[00:40:51] Ashley James: Alright. Let’s get into it.


[00:40:53] Bob Rasmussen: We look at these other benefits, the fact that it is non-toxic. That’s important to us, but we consider that a fringe benefit. The fact that this mattress lasts so long, that’s a fringe benefit of this Gel MatrixTM material.

The real science of this material is that this is the first material that exhibits two different behaviors through the course of its cushioning cycle. When you first lie down on the bed, your hips and your shoulders stick out further than the rest of your body. So in traditional mattresses most of your support, most of your weight is transferred to the mattress through your hips and shoulders, and so traditional materials only exhibit one behavior through their cushioning cycle.

What that means is that when you lie down, the further you compress those materials, the harder they push back. There’s this linear relationship between the depth that you sink into a material and the resistance or the pushback force.

Let’s say you lie down, and you sink in an inch, and it results in a certain pushback force on your hips and shoulders. If you sink in two inches, it’s twice that force. If you sink in three inches, it’s three times that force. There’s a linear relationship. Because your hips and shoulders stick out the furthest, you get these significant pressure points on your hips and shoulders, and there’s nothing you can do to stop that from happening.

We’ve tested all of these foam products out there, whether it’s the air chamber bed, the memory foam bed. You think that you’re sleeping on air on memory foam, the fact of the matter is you’re sleeping on at least six inches of foam in those beds. And it’s the foam that’s causing these pressure points because they only exhibit this one behavior of a compressible material; that the further you compress it, the harder it pushes back. So your hips and shoulders are sensitive.

We talked about what causes a bedsore earlier. What happens is the blood supply is cut off beneath the tissue, and your brain knows that, and so it wakes you up and causes you to move. Think about lying down on the floor. You can only lie down on the floor for a couple of minutes before you’re moving because it just becomes uncomfortable. Your brain tells your body that you need to move or you’re going to get a bedsore.

You can’t eliminate that problem using traditional materials. It’s simply a fact that the materials themselves and the physics of how those materials behave.

But Gel MatrixTM behaves totally different. In fact, it behaves the opposite of foam. So instead of starting soft and becoming harder the further, you push in, Gel MatrixTM starts firm and becomes soft under the areas that would cause sufficient pressure.

Let me explain how that works because it’s a breakthrough. If you go to the website, you can see a picture of what this Gel MatrixTM material looks like. It’s a grid. It got hollow core at about 1-inch square with these comfort grid.

What happens is this comfort grid behaves like a series of columns. If you think of a column that holds up a bridge, for example, if you overload that bridge, the column will fail, and the bridge collapses. It’s incapable of supporting the weight that it did before. So all of these support members in these comfort grid behave like that, and they are engineered that they will buckle right at the point where it becomes uncomfortable to the human body.

So when we lie down on this bed with Gel MatrixTM, it stands firm; and then all of a sudden under the hips and shoulders where you have excessive pressure, the Gel MatrixTM material collapses under those areas. Then it becomes incapable of supporting the weight, and they’re going to transfer the support to the broader surfaces of the body where you don’t have excessive pressure.

The unique result is that you get a very even distribution of pressure. And we say that this is the first material that’s ever brought to the mattress industry that is both firm and soft at the same time, and that sounds contradictory.

How can something be both firm and soft at the same time? The answer to that is we have a material that exhibits two different behaviors to the course of its cushioning cycle.

It starts firm. It’s about three times to four times firmer than most of the foams that are used in mattresses. You need firm support on the broad surfaces of the body; you get that because this is much firmer than the traditional foams that are used.

But then you need soft comfort on the hips and shoulders, you get that. Because what happens is these gel columns buckle underneath your hips and shoulders allowing those areas to sink deeply into the mattress without pressure points.

So an even distribution of pressure; significant back support; your hips don’t sag into the bed because this material doesn’t breakdown; and you get the best of both worlds.

In the past, you could buy a firm bed which was great for your back but terrible for your comfort. Or you could buy a soft bed which was more comfortable to sleep on, but before long you’re waking up with pain. How do you solve that compromise? You can’t solve it using traditional materials. The only way to solve that is to use a material that behaves differently than traditional materials, and Gel MatrixTM is that material.


[00:46:40] Ashley James: That’s been my experience exactly. When I lie down on it, I feel like I’m not sinking in. I feel like I’m on top of it. I’m floating like on a cloud. I’m floating on top. My spine is totally aligned, and yet I don’t feel any pressure at all under my hips, under my shoulder. I’m a side sleeper, but after getting this bed, I’ve caught myself sleeping the entire night on my back and being totally comfortable because it doesn’t create any of that pressure on my lower back.


[00:47:10] Bob Rasmussen: It’s exactly doing what it’s designed to do. When we first conceived the name of the company, this idea of Intellibed® came to mind. And the reason that we call it Intellibed® is that it automatically senses and adjusts no matter what position you sleep in. It’s designed and engineered so that the support members will collapse whether you’re on your back or on your side, exactly where you wanted to. The other parts of your body where you need the support, it stands firm.

Intellibed® really fits in. Intelligently senses what your body needs and it delivers it without any adjustments; regardless of where you’re sleeping on the surface of the bed; regardless of the position that you slept in, whether you’re a back sleeper or a side sleeper or heaven forbid, even a stomach sleeper. It’s going to support you correctly, eliminating the sag that you get with these other technologies.

It’s one thing I hear people all the time say that I was waking up in pain, so I’ll replace my bed, and I’ll talk about all these various other beds that are out there and how it solved their problem. It will do that when they’re new, but you need to consider what that bed’s going to do in a couple of years from now because all of us have experience with beds breaking down quickly, and not being able to provide the comfort and support that you need.

We talked about durability already, and one of the side benefits of this Gel MatrixTM material is that it’s so durable.


[00:48:56] Ashley James: What about EMFs? You mentioned about the metal that is used in making your bed. I’ve had a few experts on the show, Sal La Duca being one of them, who are experts in EMFs in the home. It’s concerning to sleep on the traditional mattress with coiled springs. Near outlets can increase EMF and so you’re sleeping on a big electromagnetic field. What about Intellibed® and EMFs?


[00:49:28] Bob Rasmussen: That is a concern. The concern again is that because all the springs are all tied together in this coil shape that they amplify the EMFs. In the first place, the pocket coils that we use are individually wrapped coil so they’re not a continuous wire that would tend to amplify the EMFs. So if you’re sensitive to EMFs, I don’t think that you’re going to have any issue.

The other thing that you need to know is that we put an encasement around, a 6-inch encasement around these springs. So the likelihood of EMFs being magnified is so minuscule.

We have access to a number of studies that have been done to evaluate the risk of EMF amplification by inner springs, and we have not seen any significant evidence to suggest that it’s something to worry about. But just in case, we’ve done these other things to help even minimize things further by individually wrapping the coils and by putting this foam encasement around the coils that further will eliminate the risk of any EMF amplification.


[00:50:50] Ashley James: I never knew I was sensitive to EMFs until I started learning about them. So for fun, I unplugged everything near my bed. We turn the WiFi off at night. I noticed that when I sleep on a bed near things that are plugged in like electric outlets, that I feel agitated, and when the WiFi is on, I feel agitated.

When a storm comes through, and the power goes out, because we live in a rural area about a half an hour outside of Seattle, and the power will go out in the windstorms, and I get the best sleep then because there’s low EMF. So I start to think, “Wow! I might be sensitive to it.”

I noticed that I do not have any issues with the Intellibed®. I don’t feel that agitation. I don’t feel like I’m in an electromagnetic field. But I just bought one of those machines that measures EMF for fun. My husband is like, “Come on, let’s go get one of those machines and go around and measure all the EMFs in our house.” So when I get it, I’ll measure our bed and let you know.


[0052:07] Bob Rasmussen: We’ve had a couple of influencers do that same thing, Ashley, and all of them have reported to us that they see absolutely no amplification of the EMF fields with the bed. So yeah, I’ll be very interested to hear your experience as well.


[00:52:22] Ashley James: Very cool. What about this idea of sleeping hot versus sleeping cool? I noticed that when I did have the memory foam topper on our old beat-up mattress that I was very hot and uncomfortable, especially in the summertime because memory foam will contain heat. Whereas the Gel MatrixTM doesn’t retain heat. It doesn’t feel cold. I don’t feel cold on the mattress, but I feel very neutral – a very comfortable temperature.

But I’m hearing that your temperature and the temperature of the material you’re sleeping with can affect your sleep. Can we talk about that?


[00:53:04] Bob Rasmussen: Yeah, absolutely. If you’re sleeping hot, you’re waking up. You’re waking up in sweats, and sometimes it’s very difficult to get cooled back down again. You got to get out of bed and cool down, which interrupts your sleep cycles. So it’s important that you sleep on a bed that’s actually temperature neutral.

The problem with most of the foams, especially a high-density foam like a 4- or 5-pound density memory foam or latex foam, those foam materials are insulators. What they do is reflect the heat. They trap your body heat against your body, and that is the reason that you wake up sweating. You need a material that’s going to dissipate that heat.

The beautiful thing about Gel MatrixTM first of all, it is massively ventilate, so you get great ventilation in the bed. Secondarily, the material itself conducts the heat away from you in a manner that it dissipates it in the deeper recesses of the mattress. What tends to happen is you sleep very temperature neutral. You don’t sleep hot. You don’t sleep cold.

If the room itself is hot, then you’re going to have to kick some covers off and maybe turn the air conditioning down because if you’re sleeping in a room that’s 75 or 80 degrees, you’d likely going to sweat. But the mattress itself won’t trap your body heat against you, and so it’s very temperature neutral.


[00:54:37] Ashley James: Very interesting. What else have you seen the Intellibed® do that other beds don’t do? Have you seen people report that they have less pain or that their symptoms are diminishing? Because you talked about diseases that are exacerbated by poor sleep.


[00:54:57] Bob Rasmussen: Yes. We talked about pillows earlier. I want to talk about pillows in this segment since we’re talking about pain. Most of the time, pain is caused by misalignments or excessive pressure.

So if you have hip pain or shoulder pain, it’s likely due to excessive pressure. If you’re waking up with your arms numb – Geez! In the 20 years that I’ve been sleeping on my Intellibed®, I’ve never woke up with a numb arm. The reason for that is you don’t have the excessive pressure points that are caused in those areas that they’re sensitive to pressure, and so most of that hip or shoulder pain is eliminated.

Now you might have a physiological condition that it doesn’t matter what bed you sleep on; it’s not going to solve the problem. So don’t expect a miracle cure. But for most of us, the elements that we have at night or caused by simple misalignments or excessive pressure. Because these beds do such a great job of eliminating pressure and providing adequate support for your skeletal structure, it will eliminate pain.

One of the most gratifying things about what we’ve done in Intellibed® is to get letters and to get people that will stop us at a trade show or something like that, and then tell us that sometimes with tears rolling down their face, that for the first time in years they’re sleeping pain-free. And it simply because we have the science in these beds to eliminate most of the problems that other beds caused.

Eliminating pain or reducing pain, getting you to sleep, even if it’s to complete two or three more sleep cycles at night can have a dramatic effect on your health and the way that you feel in the morning.

Like I mentioned before, that is by far the most gratifying part of what we’ve done–just to hear people talk about getting their lives back and being able to go to work and being able to maintain that lifestyle that they want to maintain.


[00:57:03] Ashley James: You know my husband had not had dreams in years. We’ve been married for 11 years. I tell him my dreams, and he is like, “I don’t dream.” And I’m like, “Well, maybe you just don’t remember them.”

Ever since we started sleeping on the Intellibed®, he’s had dreams. He goes like, “I can’t believe it.” And he’s sleeping better. He wakes up refreshed. But he wakes up remembering his dreams of having vivid, wonderful dreams, and I’m noticing I have more detailed dreams. That’s part of being in those sleep cycles longer without being interrupted, right?


[00:57:39] Bob Rasmussen: That’s exactly right. So you’re getting into the deeper stages of sleep. There are four stages of sleep: Stages 1, 2, 3, and 4. Stages 3 and 4 are the most beneficial to us. It’s the delta sleep. That’s when the brain slows down, and the brain waves become very, very slow. That is where the body consolidates its memory; it builds its immune system, and it heals itself.

I saw a report that 60 Minutes did not long ago. It’s three years ago where they took a perfectly healthy mid-20-year-old college student and wired him up at night. Every time he would get into the delta stages of sleep where the brain waves slowed, it would alert him, and he would not go into the delta sleep. He’d wake up in the morning thinking that he’d slept the full night, but in just one week’s time, he was in a prediabetic condition.

We think about diabetes being caused by all of the sugar that we eat and the poor diet that we have. We don’t associate it with poor sleep, but this study clearly pointed out that the main cause of his problem was his lack of delta sleep. We’re just learning about the poor effects of not completing our sleep cycles and so forth.

But there’s enough evidence out there to suggest that it’s critical that you get on a bed that eliminates as many of these factors that cause you to wake up and not complete your sleep cycles as possible. The Intellibed®, I’m proud to say is the best system that we have seen at eliminating these problems.

If you think about it, we’ve identified four or five key criteria that you need to consider when buying a new bed. To review, one of them is motion transfer. If you’re a light sleeper and your partner moves and it’s waking you up, you can eliminate that by being on a bed; that first of all, your partner is not going to toss and turn as much. But secondly, the motion is dampened as they move.

These are among the most motion-dampening beds that are available on the market, certainly that has tempered steel innerspring in them. Because most foam core beds that lose the ability to support you quickly, they don’t transfer motion at all. But these, for a tempered steel innerspring bed, virtually eliminate all motion transfer.

Then we talked about sleep temperature. If you’re waking up at night in sweats because you’re memory foam bed or your latex bed’s trapping your body heat against you, that can cause you to lose sleep.

But the biggest thing that this bed does is it’s the only bed that’s on the market that is simultaneously firm and soft as you sleep on it. It’s firm where you need it; soft where you want it; and it doesn’t matter the sleeping position or your location on the bed, it’s going to provide that substantial pressure relief and support. So being firm and soft at the same time, there’s not another bed that’s out there that can provide that.

Another beautiful, amazing benefit of this bed is it’s going to provide consistent comfort and support for many years. The bed is going to feel like new for years to come.

Those five key criteria that we just mentioned, there is not another bed that can deliver on all five of those things like the Intellibed® can. That’s why it’s such a blessing for us, Ashley, to be able to get the word out to listeners because your followers are concerned about their health and they’re willing to invest. They’re willing to take the time to do the things that they need to, to live a healthy lifestyle.

We’d so much appreciate the wonderful opportunity to spend this hour or so with you and explain the breakthrough of this technology.


[01:02:29] Ashley James: Absolutely. I used to be diabetic, and I reversed it with natural means. I had type 2 diabetes. I no longer do, but I have a glucometer to be able to take my morning blood sugar just to check-in—make sure I’m on the right path.

When I’d first given birth, my sleep was very disrupted. Our son had colic, and we were up six times, twelve times a night. I would take my blood sugar, and I noticed on the days that I had very bad sleep that my blood sugar all day long would be out of control.

Even though I’m not diabetic, it would just be not in healthy ranges for me. I noticed I was hungrier. I’d have more cravings. I was more tired. But I saw that there is this correlation between my deep and healthy sleep, and my ability to have stable blood sugar.

I have cravings and on the times that I had restless sleep or maybe I drink coffee too late at night or did something to overstimulate myself that if I have poor sleep, the next day my blood sugar was off; my cravings were up, and of course irritable brain fog. All the things that happen when we have poor sleep.

Since using the Intellibed®, I haven’t had any of those problems which is exciting.

You talked about the no transfer of sensation of your partner being near you or rolling around on the bed. Every morning I wake up, and I go to roll over to cuddle my husband, and he’s gone because he wakes up before me.

But in the past, in our old bed, he’d get up off the bed, and that would wake me up. And so I’m like, “Oh, it’s the morning time.” But now he gets out of bed, and he’s 6’7″, he’s not a gentle ballerina when he gets out of bed, he’s being a man about it, and the bed doesn’t shake. I don’t feel a thing. I stay totally asleep. When I wake up, I’m surprised I’d wake up before the alarm clock, fully awake, and my body is just ready to wake up. None of his movements in the night had me wake up.

So I know what you’re saying about it doesn’t transfer the sensation. But it doesn’t feel weird. It feels like a very comfortable bed. It doesn’t feel awkward at all. It feels just like I’m floating on top of it.

When we first received it, when it was shipped to us, we immediately slept on it. It didn’t off-gas. It didn’t smell like anything. It was safe to sleep on right away. I know there are some beds that your unsafe to be in the same room as the bed for like two days or three days while it’s off-gassing.

I noticed that right away. I immediately put my head in the Intellibed® to smell it just to see because I know you guys said it didn’t off-gas, but I want it to test it for myself and didn’t smell like anything. It was amazing.

I slept on my arm. I’m on my side to try to get my arm to go numb as it would do with any other bed, and I still haven’t been able to get any limb to go numb by staying in one position the whole night. My experience is exactly what you’re saying.


[01:05:55] Bob Rasmussen: That’s gratifying to hear you say that. It’s not a bit surprising to me because there’s real science in here. I wanted to mention one of the things you were talking about when you’re pregnant–you couldn’t control your blood sugar. Many women struggle with gestational diabetes when they’re pregnant. I wonder if the cause of that isn’t because their sleep cycles are so erratic when they’re pregnant because they can’t get comfortable that that is what’s going on there. All the evidence seem to suggest that.

If you’re dealing with any of these disease state, such as any of the autoimmune diseases, there’s more and more evidence to suggest that the cause of them or the amplification of them is being caused by not getting the deep stages of sleep.

That’s part of what we’re trying to do. Get the message out there that stop thinking that it’s just because you’re getting old that you’re not sleeping as well as you used to. Get on a bed with some real science behind it and see if it doesn’t help. We’re not going to guarantee that it’s going to cure your ailments or your problems, but one thing that I’m very confident about is that it’s not going to make things worse for you.

In other words, there’s not going to be a bed that’s going to provide better support, better pressure relief out there. There’s not going to be a bed that lasts as long as this one. All of these key criteria that you would consider in making the purchase of a bed, the Intellibed® delivers.


[01:07:50] Ashley James: You talked about guarantee. What is the guarantee in Intellibed®? My understanding is that your warranty or your guarantee is way more than a lot of other mattress companies out there.


[01:08:03] Bob Rasmussen: Let’s talk about the guarantee. We do offer a 90-day money back guarantee when you buy the bed. I know that there’s a huge risk or worry that you’re going to buy something and it’s not going to help you sleep better, and you spend a lot of money on it.

I mean, we’re not talking cheap. This beds even though they are among the most durable, least cost to operate beds that are out there. They are a pretty significant investment. Upfront queen size Intellibed® is going to be in the $4,500 range, so it’s not cheap.

It is very price competitive with many of the other high-end beds that you see out there. So you can easily spend that much on a Tempur-Pedic or a Sleep Number or a traditional pillow top bed. But it is an investment. We recognize that so the first thing that we do is we offer a 90-day money back guarantee. We are very flexible with that so we’ll work with you.

You think you’re sleeping better, but you’re getting close to the guarantee, to the end of the 90 days. It’s very common for us to give you another 30 days or 60 days and we’ll work with you.

But then the warranty is the best warranty that I am aware of in the industry. It is a non-prorated 20-year warranty. Most beds out there only have a 10-year warranty, and the first five years is the only thing that’s covered fully. So this is a full 20-year non-prorated warranty.

I can tell you we’ve been building these beds for almost 20 years. Last year we spent less than $10,000 on warranty issues. We know that these beds are well built. We have years of experience with them. They deliver what we say they do.


[01:09:57] Ashley James: That is so cool. In the 20-year warranty, how much warped or how worn does the Intellibed® need to be for the warranty to kick in?


[01:10:12] Bob Rasmussen: It’s three-fourths of an inch. As I said, I’ve never seen one with anybody impression in it, but it’s three-fourths of an inch. If you have that, then call our toll-free warranty department. We’ll work with you and get it taken care of.


[01:10:32] Ashley James: That is very cool. I’d love that. My experience with the old mattress that I bought from a major box store, sleep something, back in I think it was 2012, we spent close to I think it was $2,200 on our bed and it was warped in two years. So if I took their warranty which would give me somewhat of a discount on my next mattress, I would have been buying a mattress every two to five years from them versus buying one from you every 20 years.

And it sounds like even though you have a 20-year warranty that they last well beyond the 20 years. So even though yours are price competitive, actually there’s a big savings there, if you only buy one mattress the rest of your life versus one every two to five years.


[01:11:35] Bob Rasmussen: It really is one of the best values out there, especially when you consider the fact that you’re going to get consistent comfort and support, whereas with these other products you’re losing a little bit of your comfort and support every night that you sleep on it. After just a couple of years, it’s very common to hear people say, “Wow, just two years. After two years, I was starting to wake up with back pain and so forth.”

That’s unfortunately how rapidly the materials that are used in traditional bedding will breakdown.


[01:12:04] Ashley James: I don’t know if you feel your ears burning every morning. You know the saying, “If your ears are burning, someone’s thinking about you.”? But every morning I think about you and your company because of how grateful I am when I wake up, and I’m so comfortable and so well-rested.

I know that kind of sounds over the top, but when you have the best sleep of your life, that’s kind of all I think about every morning is how grateful I am for my Intellibed®.

The other friends I have that have Intellibed® as well have shared the same thing. It’s not just me. Any listener who has one, feel free to contact me, and let me know what your experience is. I always love to hear it. You can email me,

Listeners who want to check out the Intellibed® website that I mentioned with the two videos that get into more detail and also The Learn True Health exclusive, they can go to

I believe it’s through Wells Fargo that you create a payment plan for those who don’t have a few thousand dollars saved up to buy a bed, but that they’re interested in owning a bed. Is that correct?


[01:13:18] Bob Rasmussen: Absolutely. We offer financing on approved credit, and we have a number of different financing packages. We also need to identify the deal that we’re talking about here because we’ve given your followers a great deal that they’re not going to get anywhere else.

Shall we review the promotion, the special that we’re talking about here?


[01:13:43] Ashley James: Absolutely. I worked with your company. So this is something I do any time I believe in something. I’ve done this with Sunlighten Saunas, and a few other companies I’ve really believed in that are making a difference in my life. I always ask for a really great deal for my listeners.

You’ve given us 10% off, free shipping, and then my favorite, two free intelliPILLOWS which have made such a difference for my neck. I would have taken both of them for me, but I was nice enough to give my husband one. So my husband has one, and I have one, and we don’t need anymore. We feel amazing with them. They’re hypoallergenic. It’s this very interesting sensation of like you say it’s firm and soft at the same time, and it supports you 100%, but it doesn’t cut off any blood circulation. So it’s is a perfect material for a pillow.

And then the free mattress protector which is mandatory for me because my son is allergic to dust mites. That is The Learn True Health exclusive. Go to to check it out.

Bob, this has been wonderful having you here. I feel like the hours just flown by. Is there anything you like to leave us with? Are there any stories of success or any stories that you love conveying about those who use Intellibed®?


[01:15:05] Bob Rasmussen: Oh, boy! There’s just so many. I’ll tell you. We’re setting up a new factory right now because thanks to people like you, Ashley, who are helping us get the word out there that the demand is increasing.

I got an employee that works for me, and this is not unusual. I got a number of employees that came to work for us because they believe so much in the technology. But this good soul was literally in significant pain every night. He has back pain. He’s got lower back problems. He came to work, heard all the stories that we were telling, was completely skeptical about it, and he got him on an Intellibed®, and it’s changed his life. He’s back to his old self, not struggling with the pain that he had before.

It’s gratifying and typical of the kind of stories that we hear, especially people who haven’t slept in years and all of a sudden, they’ve given up on having a good night’s sleep, and they’re sleeping again. It’s giving them their lives back. And that to me has been one of the most gratifying things of what we’ve done. It’s just helping people to live the lifestyle that they want to live. It’s been very gratifying.

I want to thank you for the opportunity to share our story with your followers. We’re going to take care of your customers. If the bed doesn’t work for you, then we’re going to take it back. But by far, most of the experiences that we have are this kind of experience where it’s been life-changing.


[01:17:03] Ashley James: Absolutely. Another I’ve forgotten to mention is my husband, and I always have like different styles. He likes a firm mattress. I like a soft mattress. So we thought there’s no way we’re ever going to find that something that we could both agree on and we both like the firm and softness of the Intellibed®, so it’s perfect for those people who think they need some Numbers bed where the one person sleeps soft, and the other person sleeps hard. This is perfect. This is right across the board, the perfect amount of support and softness at the same time. I love it so much.

Another thing I did is go through your website and read all the testimonials, and the stories that people share are pretty moving. There’s this one veteran I remember reading about, and he was in so much pain for years from the damage his body took from being in the Middle East, and he also had post-traumatic stress. He had mental health issues, and of course lack of sleep, and anxiety, and waking up at night with nightmares.

All of that – he didn’t realize that it was his bed. But the Intellibed® was something that allowed him to sleep deeply, and he noticed that his nightmares and his anxiety were diminishing and it gave him his life back.

Part of his healing journey was making sure that he had the best sleep possible, and of course, his pain also diminished. I think he said had given up on sleeping on mattresses altogether and was sleeping on a recliner until someone turned him into Intellibed®. This wonderful story is on your website, which was so phenomenal, and I love it.

But anyone who’s having problems with health, with sleep, with pain, they got to try it. I love that you give that 90-day guarantee so that people will have no risk and that they can experience it for themselves.

Bob it’s been so wonderful having you here. Is there anything left unsaid? Is there anything that you’d like to share to wrap up today’s interview?


[01:19:18] Bob Rasmussen: You talked about my ears burning now, actually it helps me sleep better at night knowing that we created a product that is really helping people.

The other thing that I wanted to mention is to make sure that when you call in or when you order online—I want to mention that our sleep experts that you talked to on the phone, they’re not going to try to close you. They’re not going to try to hard sell you into buying a bed. But they are going to try to understand what you’re unique likes and dislikes are and what your needs are; and they’re going to sell you the right bed. They’re not going to sell you the most expensive bed. We have a couple of different models that we offer in our organics line, which has an organic cover on it. So don’t be afraid even if you’re averse to talking to salespeople about calling them. They’ll take good care of you, I promise.

When you do call in, make sure you mention Ashley’s code so that you get the deal and that is…


[01:20:23] Ashley James: LTH as in Learn True Health.


[01:20:26] Bob Rasmussen: Learn True Health. LTH and they’ll know that you’re Ashley’s follower, and they’ll make sure that you get all the freebies that we talked about.


[01:20:36] Ashley James: Awesome. Thank you so much, Bob. It’s been wonderful having you on the show and thank you for your bed. I thank you every morning when I wake up now.


[01:20:45] Bob Rasmussen: You are so welcome. Thank you.


[01:20:49] Ashley James: Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition and how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health, happiness, and longevity? Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business, support people in their success? Do you love helping people?

You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrated Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program. It blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over 100 dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition, but from the standpoint of how we can help people to shift their life and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health.

I definitely recommend you check them out. You can Google Institute for Integrated Nutrition or IIN, and give them a call, or you can go to, and you can receive a free module of their training. Do check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in.

Be sure to mention my name, Ashley James, and the Learn True Health podcast because I made a deal with them that they would give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program, and I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information.

We need more health coaches. In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctor’s offices. You can work in a hospital. You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system, and help your local schools, shift their programs to help children be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success and their health goals.

There are so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach. So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrated Nutrition. Mention my name, get the best deal. Give them a call, and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you.

Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month, so you want to call them now and check it out. If you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding, and you get to help so many people.


Get Connected with Bob Rasmussen!

Website – Intellibed


May 17, 2019

"It's not about the strep, it is about susceptibility. You have to ask why your child gets a common illness and ends up looking like a mental patient instead of getting a fever and a sore throat like other kids. Killing the bugs that caused it won't prevent it from happening again. Nothing will unless you treat the susceptibility."

 FB Group:


There’s nothing ordinary nor cute about this episode’s PANS and PANDAS. Naturopathic physician Dr. Jennifer Bahr breaks down Pediatric Acute Neuropsychiatric Syndrome (PANS) and Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorder Associated with Streptococcal Infections (PANDAS) for us, and how homeopathy helps.


[00:00:42] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is Episode 354.

I am so excited to have Dr. Jennifer Bahr, naturopathic physician, on the show today. I’ve been waiting for months and months to get her to come on the show. Finally, our schedules aligned. Welcome, Dr. Bahr.


[00:01:09] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Thank you. I’m so glad that we finally figured this out too. It’s been a while. It’s been a long time coming.


[00:01:13] Ashley James: Absolutely. You specialized in helping families, helping children with PANS and PANDAS. We’re going to define what that is in a sec because, up to a few months ago, I had never heard of this.

One of my good friends told me that her daughter was finally diagnosed after years of very strange symptoms. She was diagnosed with PANDAS. I’m like, “Is that a thing? Like PANDAS? Your daughter has PANDAS?” She was typing to me, “My daughter has PANDAS.” I’m like, “You’re typing to me like I should know that, and I’ve never heard of that.


[00:01:50] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Yeah. Like an infestation of a cute, cuddly bear.


[00:01:54] Ashley James: Exactly. I’m like, “Okay, your daughter has PANDAS. What does that even mean?” She was enlightening me. I’m blown away that there’s this entire diagnosis that so many children have gone undiagnosed and/or misdiagnosed, and on all kinds of medications. Finally, you being a major expert in this field are helping to clear the path towards for clarity and showing people how they can use natural medicine to help their children come back into balance and heal.

My friend said you have to get into Dr. Jennifer Bahr’s Facebook group. We’re going to let parents know right now. Search Homeopathy for PANS & PANDAS on Facebook to join the free group. It’s a fantastic group. I’ve been in it for a while. I love the advice and information that’s there.

You’re a pioneer in this field. I’m very excited to bring you here today for the listeners. I asked the listeners in my Facebook group, The Learn True Health Facebook group, if they have any questions for you. So far, we have about 12 questions of parents with children with PANS or PANDAS. I’m going to have you answer them, as well as give us lots of great information today.

But first, before we get into your story on what led you want to become a naturopathicphysician specializing in helping children with this issue, can you explain what PANS and PANDAS are?


[00:03:37] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Absolutely. I want to make sure and clarify for the people who are looking for the group already. If you can’t find it, it’s Homeopathy for PANS and PANDAS. Rather than slash, it’s “&” symbol, Homeopathy for PANS & PANDAS.

PANS stands for Pediatric Acute Neuropsychiatric Syndrome, and PANDAS stands for Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorder Associated w/ Streptococcal Infections. I’m sure that clears everything up. No questions anymore, right? Just kidding.

Basically, PANDAS is a form of PANS. Both conditions essentially have the same things. PANDAS is just a very specific type of PANS. What happens with these kids is they get exposed to an infection. In PANDAS, it happens to be strep; PANS, it can be many different things. It can be Lyme. It can be any other co-infections associated with Lyme, like Bartonella. It could be mold toxicity. It could be mycoplasma, which can typically cause pneumonia, or other environmental toxins. It’s not a defined cause, whereas PANDAS is a defined cause of strep infections.

They get exposed to this infection. In most cases, it’s usually an infection, and then they get a sudden onset of obsessive-compulsive disorder and tics, changes in their urination—basically kids who’ve been potty-trained for years and even teens who have no problems with urinary control, suddenly wetting the bed at night, having to go to the restroom ten times in an hour; changes in handwriting; significant changes in behavior; a lot of insomnia, rage will come out, a lot of separation anxiety too.

People will feel like they lost their child overnight. Parents will often compare it to their child becoming possessed almost because they are very different. There are even changes in how they look. A lot of these kids will end up very pale. They’ll have the dark circles around their eyes. They’ll have dilated pupils. They almost look through their parents when they’re dealing with some of these episodes that they go through. Does that clear things up a little bit more without getting too far into the weeds?


[00:05:53] Ashley James: Yeah, it does. Is it an autoimmune condition?


[00:05:54] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: It’s still being studied. It’s a challenging diagnosis for people to deal with. We can talk about this in as much detail as you need to help people understand it like what they’re going to face if it sounds like something that their child is experiencing. They want to go to their pediatrician. “I heard about these PANS and PANDAS. Is this what’s going on with my kid?”

Unfortunately, it’s a newly understood phenomenon. It was 1998 when it’s first defined. Because of that, there’s a lot of controversy around its legitimacy as a diagnosis. Medical science takes a long time to catch up to research because everybody’s got to redo things—who’s right, who’s wrong, and all that.

It’s believed right now to be an autoimmune response to strep or any of the other conditions in PANS. What happens is that our body gets exposed to this invading pathogen, and it tries to mount an immune response. What happens in autoimmunity is that our immune response gets too broad, so rather than just attacking the pathogen itself, it starts to attack our cells.

Strep is tricky because it can undertake this thing called molecular mimicry. We’ve got these little proteins that are on the surface of our cells that identify us as us, so that our immune system, when it goes up to attack cells, it doesn’t attack our cells. What strep we’ll do is it puts proteins on its surface that looks similar to our proteins. It’s almost like putting on a mask of us so that it’s trying to hide from our immune system.

Because of this, the immune system will recognize it like you can tell if someone’s wearing a mask of you that is not you. Your immune system can also tell that masked strep bacteria is not you, so it starts to attack the strep bacteria, but in that effort, it brought in an attack and ends up attacking its cells.

It’s an autoimmune attack on the nervous system as a result of the infection. Strep has been known to be able to do this for years. That’s one reason that we have to get strep treated pretty early. If we don’t get it addressed within four days of onset, we can have an autoimmune response both in our heart and our kidneys as well. This is not a new thing. This particular presentation of it has been shown to be more prominent and more defined here recently.


[00:08:27] Ashley James: That’s very interesting. When I was in college, I was studying pathology, and they said, “pop quiz.” I’m from Canada. I live in the States now. But in Canada socialized medicine, if a child with a broken arm and a child with strep comes into the ER, why is the child with strep chosen first while everyone is thinking, “The kid with the broken arm should go first.” They said, “No. We’ve got to treat strep as fast as possible because it can damage the heart.”

Back in the 90s, this is the information that they are teaching. Interestingly, we’ve known that strep can do this, but the link to creating this autoimmune response or any neurological symptoms afterward is fairly new, which is so weird because it’s been going on for a long time.


[00:09:27] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: It’s not completely new. There’s Sydenham’s chorea which we’ve known about for a long time that can happen as a result of strep. People who get diagnosed with Sydenham’s chorea, upon prophylactic antibiotics, until they’re 21—PANDAS specifically is very similar to Sydenham’s chorea. It has a lot of similarities in the tics and the movement. It’s a little bit different. There is a specific choreiform movement that happens with Sydenham’s chorea.

This is a new manifestation, and I’m certain we’ll get into lots of these details for why this is happening. But I’m exploring more and more and constantly learning which is one of those conditions that you never know enough. You’re constantly learning more and more about things. But it seems that it has a lot to do with our current lifestyle or diet or exposure to things in our environment. It’s creating this perfect soup that cooks up this really dramatic response that is happening so much more commonly than it used to.

Granted I am a specialist in this. This is all I see in my practice anymore—PANS and PANDAS—so I do have a skewed perception, but I keep looking at this. I talked to my husband who runs my practice, who when I first started talking about PANS and PANDAS, he legitimately thought 20 people in the country had it. He’s like, “I don’t know why you want to reach out to these people more and help these people more. I think you’re helping them already. How many people need this?”

When we started the Facebook group at the request of one of the moms that I worked with, he was floored by how many people joined the group so quickly. He’s stunned how many people are suffering from these. I’ve been telling him all along. I was like, “I think we had it toward—I hate to use this word loosely but—like an epidemic.” In the way that autism has dramatically increase, PANS and PANDAS got a lot of overlap with autism too, and I’m seeing it’s dramatically increasing. More and more kids have it. It used to be one kid in a town would have familiarity in it, and now parents are telling me, “We’ve got multiple kids in the class that have it.”

It’s becoming a problem, and it’s not just about the bugs. I’m sure we’ll talk all about that here in a little bit. But it’s not the bugs, even though it sounds like it’s the bugs. It’s not the bugs.


[00:11:51] Ashley James: Great segue way into your story. I want to know, first of all, what happened in your life that made you want to become a naturopathic physician? And then what happened that made you want to specialize in PANS and PANDAS when it only seems like there are only 20 people in the world that had it at the time?


[00:12:10] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Looking back, there is a chance, and of course, you can’t guarantee anything in retrospect. Hindsight is 20/20. But it’s not even 20/20 in this case because you need lab test and everything. There’s a chance I might have had PANS and PANDAS when I was younger.

I never got diagnosed with that. I did have some symptoms that are common to PANS and PANDAS. Potentially, it started when I was eight. When I had to get my tonsils taken out and I got pneumonia, and suddenly started getting scared at night and having intense fears about all the robbers and murderers that had never been caught somehow hiding in my room waiting for me to go to bed and imagining that they’re going to some way stab me from underneath my bed or hurt me in the night sometimes; or fears that the house is going to catch on fire, and I was going to have to jump out. These constant intrusive thoughts that were scary, and that would happen specifically at night.

I had some urinary issues that I’d never shared with anybody, so you’re the first. I had random urinary issues when I was fully potty-trained when I was six to eight years old. I don’t recall having any tics, but I don’t know for sure.

The real definite time that I had my first interaction with anything in the mental health was when I was 16, and my mom made me see a psychiatrist for depression. I got put on medication, and the medication made me significantly worse. I was put on an SSRI, and it sent me through the roof.

I went from being genuinely, legitimately depressed. I was sleeping all the time, lost interest in hanging out with my friends. I quit dancing. I was a competitive dancer and loved it, and I quit. I quit swim team. I quit all of these things and stopped turning in my homework. I was a star student, and I basically stopped doing anything.

My mom took me to a doctor, and I got put on antidepressant that was an SSRI and quickly felt significantly better, but I felt so much better that I wasn’t sleeping anymore. I was talking a mile a minute and had a lot of signs of hypomania and a lot of agitation. I took myself off that medication after about six months because I was like, “Well, I’m not depressed anymore. Why on earth would I take an antidepressant?” and proceeded to many more years of lots of ups and downs, many, many ups and downs, and lots of impulsive behavior.

I didn’t like what I was doing in Ohio State University. I was studying chemical engineering. I quit and join the Navy pretty impulsively, and then went out to California where I live now. I was up in Northern California. I went to the language school up there. I learned Arabic. Then decided I want to be a doctor. That’s stuck. Pretty shortly after I left my home state of Ohio and joined the Navy, got a little bit of freedom. I was able to say, “I do want to be a doctor.” And then there are lots of ups and downs.

I was an Arabic translator in the Navy for six years, and while I was doing that—this is in from 1998 to 2004, pretty high demand for Arabic translators and people with security clearances working in intel. I did that while I was also going to school full time to get my undergraduate degree in physiology and neurobiology at the University of Maryland. I was really busy, and I had lots of fluctuations in my mood during that time as well, and my ability to concentrate and think clearly. Sometimes I was razor-sharp, and sometimes I felt terrible. I sort of accepted, “Okay, I’m somebody who deals with depression, and so I’m going to have to continue to deal with this.”

But then it came to a head in November of 2003, and things got really bad. I got to the point that I was suicidal, but I knew that I was not going to be able to act on it. One night I went to bed after I’ve taken a bunch of sleeping pills because It hurts too much to be awake, and I had a little bit of alcohol with it. I thought, “Maybe this will be a lethal combination.” It was comforting to think that maybe I wasn’t going to wake up. I wasn’t’ trying to commit suicide, but it was comforting to think that perhaps that would have happened. I woke up, and I was disappointed. I said, “Okay, I need help because I can’t continue to live like this.”

I called the doctor, and I got in quickly. With the military, that rarely happens, but I was stubborn enough to refuse to go to the ER, so they made a way for me to come and see the doctor the very next day. That doctor ends up diagnosing me with bipolar disorder because I had a lot of history of intense mood, short sleep times, high energy, rapid thoughts, pressured speech—the typical signs you see with mania or hypomania. He gave that diagnosis. When I was expecting to be put on an antidepressant, I instead got put on lithium.

Lithium made me feel very slow and stupid. This was like November of 2003, I was on my second to last semester at the University of Maryland, and I was taking the toughest biology class in our course of study for the physiology and neurobiology. I got my first ever D, and that was hard for me. I was a student who’s used to getting mostly A’s and an occasional B, and I got a D. I had to retake that class.

In part, it’s because of what I was going through emotionally, and in part, because my brain would not work on that medication. I ended up gaining a bunch of weight on it, ended up messing my thyroid—lots and lots of issues.

As I was finishing up, I had a lot of thoughts to myself. I succumb to the stigma. There’s still an awful lot of stigma around mental health, and this was years ago. I was in the military where we also are taught you don’t get help for mental health reasons because you’ll lose your job.

Fortunately, I didn’t lose my job, and I never did. I continued to work in the intel world for another four years while I was figuring out what naturopathic medicine was and my route to get there. Fortunately, I was not subject to losing my clearance and my job because I had the insight to get help. That’s one thing that’s important for people to recognize this. It’s about getting help. Even when there’s stigma, when you get help, when you can have that insight, it has significantly less impact on you that might otherwise if you don’t seek the help in the first place.

It’s fortunate enough that I was able to finish up my time in the military and I did pass, obviously my class, when I took it again. But then with that stigma, I still had that feeling like I was broken; and there was something wrong with me; and how I can possibly be a doctor if I couldn’t rely on my brain. If somebody was telling me that those times that I felt my best—when I was my sharpest, when I was on my game and could think clearly, had lots of energy, was the center of attention, having lots of fun—that that was me when I was sick. That gave me pause to have me ask myself, “Is this really what you should be doing? Can you be trusted? Can other people trust you? Can you trust yourself?”

I took a lot of time, and I stayed in that field where I was translating Arabic for another couple of years, deciding what I was going to do. I was contemplating psychology because I still really wanted to help people and I was even more drawn to help people with mental health conditions after my personal experience, where I was misdiagnosed and then given medications that didn’t make me feel great.

Honestly, I did adjust to them, so I didn’t feel stoned all the time on lithium after about a month or two, but I didn’t feel great. I didn’t feel the highs and the lows anymore, but I didn’t feel anything. It was dull and flat and gray. I wasn’t myself anymore. I didn’t want to get into the field that I was planning on going into which is psychiatry because I didn’t want to be somebody who’s tool was to have people take pills that made people less burdensome to those around them but made them less of themselves at the same time.

I thought about doing psychology, and that felt far too passive for me. Then with my own experience with not only the medications but the medical realm in general–I remember going to see my primary care doctor for something completely different not related to my mental health, like an injury from doing too many push-ups in a Krav Maga class. They gave me a medication that I knew was contraindicated considering the fact that I was on lithium, and the doctor didn’t listen to me and told me to take it anyway, and it was the insurance company that called me.

Where is the medical system when your insurance company is looking out for your best interest more than your doctor? The insurance company called me and said, “Hey, we just saw that you had both of these medications. You can’t take them together. You need to stop the naproxen and call your doctor.”

Two hours later, the nurse from the doctor’s office called me and said, “Hey, we need you to stop taking that.” And I said, “I told the doctor that when I was in the office. Why didn’t he listen to me?” And the nurse said, “I’m sorry. I don’t know why, but please stop taking it.” And that’s when I said, “There’s something broken. There’s something wrong here.”

I decided I can’t fix the system if I’m not a part of it. Not always, but ever since I was 19, I’ve wanted to be a doctor. I’ve gone to all of this training in my undergrad. I can still do this. People can. I’m stable. I can manage this. It’s more about being treated. As long as you’re treated, it’s fine; and have that cognizance to maintain treatment.

I started researching and started studying for my MCAT and figure out ways that I could learn to do psychiatry but to use more natural approaches. Then I was expecting that I was going to have to do my traditional, conventional medical training and then do lots of traveling throughout the world to learn new Ayurvedic medicine and herbs andnutrition and all these other things that aren’t taught in the conventional program.


It was two weeks before I took my MCAT, I read an article written by an ND, and I’d never even heard of a naturopathic doctor at this point. I was like, “What is this ND? Did somebody make up this ending till I give them more legitimacy than they actually have?” I hit Google and saw ND stands for “naturopathic physician.” What is that? As I’m reading, I’m like, “It combines the conventional and natural, and it’s a program that does this in four years instead of ten plus.” And I was like, “Oh, my gosh!” The light bulb went off. This is what I’m trying to do, and it already exists. I don’t have to piece me all these.

From there, I started taking a look into it and researching more about it. I applied to a couple of different schools and ended up going to the school that I landed on that explained what naturopathic medicine was in the first place. That’s how I got to naturopathic medicine.

Mental health was always my passion because of my own experience. I’m driven to help people that I can relate to. It took me a while to feel comfortable sharing my story because I still had that feeling if I share with people, they’re going to think that they can’t trust me, that I shouldn’t be a doctor, and I’ll lose my license—any of these things. It ended up being the most freeing thing that I ever did when I finally made that decision to share, because, yes, people are going to think that occasionally.

People have taught that I’m not the right person for them or their partner or whatever because they have their judgments about “crazy.” But when people get to know me, they see that one, I’m stable. Two, the medicines that I use for my patients help me recover from whatever it was, whether it was an accurate diagnosis of bipolar disorder or if it was something else going on, leading back all the way to all the things that I dealt with when I was a child; when I was anxious and scared and raged. I forgot to tell you I’ve punched holes in walls. I was that kid. I was an angry rage-filled kid too, which is a lot of what we see in PANS and PANDAS.

Regardless of what it is, I use the same type of medicine and the same approaches for myself and working with my doctors that I now use for my patients.


[00:24:55] Ashley James: What school did you go to?


[00:24:58] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: I went to Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine in Tempe, Arizona. I was between that and Bastyr University. It was completely serendipitous that I ended up in SCNM. Bastyr has a reputation as one of the best schools. In part just because of its longevity in the community or the world. It’s one of the longer programs, and they have a lot of really great marketing.

I’m grateful that it was the sun that drew me to Arizona because the homeopathy program at SCNM is significantly stronger than the homeopathy program at Bastyr. With the homeopathy part too, I was not a fan of homeopathy when I first find out about it as being part of the program. It’s worth talking about because homeopathy uses infinitesimally small doses of single substances found in nature, and it’s given to people based off their symptoms that they’re experiencing that the substance, if used in a high dose, could cause in a healthy person.

If somebody is sick and they’re experiencing symptoms similar to what a substance could cause in a healthy person that medicine is used to “cure” those symptoms in the unhealthy person. Does that make sense? I was a little convoluted there.


[00:26:22] Ashley James: We’ve had a few guests on the show about homeopathy, and I always share that I’m the most open-minded skeptic. I’m going to question everything, but I’m open-minded enough to try it. I found out I was pregnant because I had the worse—it’s not morning sickness, but it’s 24 hours a day.


[00:26:43] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Hyperemesis gravidarum.


[00:26:45] Ashley James: Yeah, I had that all the time. We didn’t know we were pregnant because I was told I was infertile. This is a long story. I won’t get to it now, but I’ve told it before on the show. Using natural medicine, we got our fertility or I got my fertility. And so, surprise! I was pregnant.

I had migraine, nausea, vomiting, fever, shaking, blurred vision. I felt like I had flu. I was incredibly sick, and I was in so much pain, and we were on a business road trip. I was in so much pain from the car sickness and from everything that I was like, “Screw it, I’m taking Advil.” I told my husband, “Pull over to the Safeway.” I don’t ever take NSAIDs or anything, but I was in so much pain. When you’re in pain, you’re like, “I will do anything.”

In the back of my mind, this little voice said, “Go take a pregnancy test before you take Advil because if you’re pregnant, you don’t want to be taking Advil.” I’m thinking myself there’s a 1% chance I’m pregnant because I’m infertile. I had polycystic ovary syndrome. I’ve been using natural medicine and changed my diet and lifestyle and everything. I was correcting all of my health issues. I thought, “1% chance, fine.”

I grabbed the pregnancy test before I grabbed the Advil, and I came out running and screaming and jumping through the air at my husband. Suddenly, all my symptoms seemed to disappear. I couldn’t believe it. I was bawling. I was crying and screaming. I was so happy staring at the little positive mark on the pregnancy test. That was the happiest day of my life, but I was also incredibly miserable, incredibly sick.

Luckily at that time, we were actually hosting a naturopathic physician to give a health talk. He looked at me, and he figured out what my constitution was, and he said, “We got to get this homeopathy for you.” Again, I’ll try anything. I can’t try Advil now, so I got to try something natural. I took it, and I didn’t have the placebo effect because I’m like, “Whatever, I’ll take anything.” But within 90 seconds, my symptoms cut down so much that I could open my eyes. I could walk again. The headache cleared up to just 1 out of 10 pain from a 10 out of 10. I stopped feeling nauseous and vomiting. It was incredible. He said, “You have to take that your whole pregnancy. Every time you start feeling bad, take some.” It was like clockwork. I couldn’t believe it.

And then again, our son, he had colic. I tried everything, and the only thing that worked was homeopathy. If a one-week-old or a one-month-old baby who has no idea what are you putting its mouth, its symptoms start to get better when you get homeopathy in its mouth, then how is it a placebo effect?

I love homeopathy. I have to use the right remedy. If you use the wrong remedy, nothing happens. Luckily, there’s no side effect. Whereas you use the wrong the medication and your insurance company calls you up.


[00:29:49] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Right. For the most part.


[00:29:51] Ashley James: Homeopathy is significantly safer, but you got to work with an expert because there are 2000-3000 different choices when it comes to homeopathy and different strengths and different ways of taking it. We got to work with an expert. You can’t walk into the drugstore and look at, “This one said it’s good for colds. I’ll take this one.”


[00:30:14] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Yeah. Or asking a group and a mom says, “This one was a miracle for my kid.” Okay, so I’m going to do that, too. It’s not necessarily going to work for your kid because your kid is different. Everybody is different.


[00:30:24] Ashley James: Exactly. We got to work with an expert. I’m really glad to hear that you felt that your homeopathy training was the strongest at the neuropathic university that you went to.


[00:30:36] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: I still think it is. The school here in San Diego has an awful lot of people who are in the homeopathy realm and teaching homeopathy who were trained at SCNM. The school I went to, it’s also got a pretty strong program in the San Diego campus here, too. Although I still think that the SCNM program is stronger. It’s got more legs.


[00:30:57] Ashley James: When you say San Diego, are you referring to the Bastyr?


[00:31:01] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Yes, the Bastyr branch in San Diego—Bastyr University in San Diego. It sounds like you and I had a similar introduction to homeopathy. I was so skeptical when I found out about it. When I had to take it as one of my lectures in my first quarter at SCNM, I almost quit. I was like, “Are you kidding me? This complete nonsense, quackery medicine is part of my required training as a physician? There’s no way I’m ever going to use this. Am I going to give my patients nothing and help them to get better? This is magical thinking nonsense. No, I’m never going to use this.”

Legitimately, I almost quit because I started to look down on the program that included it. Then I decided to focus on the things that I thought were more legitimate. I was like, “I’ll do this. Everything’s imperfect in life, and so I will take this imperfection. I will run with it and ignore it, and focus on the things that I think are useful.”

Then I met the first doctor that I worked with at a conference who had a lot of experience treating specifically bipolar disorder, and it was the perfect timing because I wanted the option to get pregnant. I was finally in this place, and I’m old enough. I’m in that trajectory for that last stages of school. After this, I’m done with school, and I want the option to get pregnant in the future.

But none of the medications that you’re taking with bipolar disorder are safe in pregnancy—none. Most of the psychotropic medications are not known for sure to be safe in pregnancy. There are a lot of complications even with the ones that are considered Pregnancy Category B, which is basically the safest you can get, meaning that it’s not guaranteed safe, but it does not have a lot of evidence of harm. There are still things that come out for the babies. They get born with withdrawal symptoms from SSRI if they’re taken when mom is pregnant. But absolutely none of the medications I could take to manage bipolar disorder were allowed in pregnancy. It could cause birth defects or fetal death.

I went to my psychiatrist, and I said, “What are my options if I want to have a baby?” He looked me square in the eye and told me I would have to get shock therapy if I want to have a baby. I was like, “That is nonsense.” I’m going to try this other thing that’s also nonsense but doesn’t require hooking electrodes to my brain and shooting electricity through my brain and scrambling it. I’m going to try, and if it doesn’t work, I’ll come back to the meds, and I can always fry my brain later if that’s what I feel like I need to do.

I’m so glad that I have that because I had a similar experience. I was on medication when I started working with my doctor who’s prescribing me the constitutional homeopathic remedy, and me being the skeptical scientist that I am, I decided that it was no way I can know. He insisted that the remedy was working. I said, “There’s no way I can possibly know that this is working because I’m on suppressant medications.” I impulsively stopped my medications, which you should never do. It is a bad idea. It can cause a lot of headaches and a lot of negative repercussions, and so don’t do what I did. I was a very bad patient. It’s a bad idea for anybody to do. Don’t follow me. Do as I say not as I do.

I ended up manic out of my mind within a few weeks of stopping the medication, and fortunately, the remedy was working. I got the clear evidence that it was working because my doctor at that time didn’t have me taking a daily dose. He had me taking single doses. We’ve had a follow-up every two to three weeks, and then he would tell me whether or not I needed to take another dose of the remedy. He usually did have me take another dose.

We’re very fortunate the day I became floridly manic. We already had an appointment scheduled because I was not aware that I was manic. I was feeling all of the things, and feeling good about feeling all over the things again. Probably, it could be a hint that I was not able to sit still. I was marching around in class in the back like a crazy who is manic because I was.

My doctor told me to take another dose of the remedy and within two hours, I was able to go out to dinner with my friends and sit still, have a normal paced conversation, and no longer felt like I needed to get a tattoo right now, or run away to Nicaragua, and start this crazy new life.

That was my magical moment where I said, “If this can actually cool me down where medications would never have done it that fast—if I had started taking my lithium again, it would have taken weeks, and I wouldn’t have felt better but still me. I would have felt not manic, but I would have felt dull and slow. It would have taken weeks to get there.

That was when I had my moment, and I said, “I guess this stuff works.” Just like you, I did not expect it to work. I was like, “I guess I have to learn how to do this.” That’s how I came to homeopathy. And then PANS and PANDAS came to me when I had success treating it because ultimately when we’re dealing with PANS and PANDAS—it looks like a psychiatric and neurological condition, so people were seeking out somebody to help with OCD and tics.

The first case that I had of PANS and PANDAS was somebody who just taught it was Tourette syndrome and OCD, who’d been misdiagnosed, which happens so frequently. Her child had been misdiagnosed, and fortunately, in naturopathic medical school, we’re taught about PANS and PANDAS. I was able to catch it and figure out what it was. Homeopathy was all it was needed for this little girl to get her back on track. But then obviously, once you get good results for something that is hard to treat, more people come to you and come, and come, and come.

I kept seeing more and more people and seeing that ultimately, in my experience, for people to have full, true resolution, which is actually possible. People will tell you that it’s not possible and that you’re always going to have this. Just like with any other mental condition, it’s with you for life. This is going to be what your kids are dealing with for at least until they’re 21, 18 or some random age, when apparently your immune system knows, “I can drink now. It means I’m an adult, so I’m going to change the way I’m responding to things.” Not true.

But we can see these kids recover to the point that not only are their symptoms controlled, and not just controlled but they’re gone, and that they can get exposed to the things that were the triggers in the past and not have a flare of these neuropsychiatric symptoms.

The only way that I’ve seen this happen for people is using homeopathy, and so it’s become my drive and my passion in life. The only thing that I see in my practice anymore is PANS and PANDAS because these kids don’t recover unless you use homeopathy.

When I went into naturopathic medicine and working with people with the mental health trauma, I was always drawn to working with kids because as much I love my mother—She did the best that she could. She got me to a doctor when she knew that I needed it, and she did what she had information for. My mother absolutely took credit for the fact that I’m here now and that I’m as healthy as I’m now and everything.

If my mom had had more information and been able to find a doctor to treat me the way I treat my patients, when I was as young as six or seven, when the first thing started coming up, I might have had a lot less headache and a lot less heartache through my adult life and through some formative years, which granted now I’m very grateful for because they lead me here to what I’m doing. It really was not pleasant at that time. I was always driven to help kids because I wanted to prevent them from dealing with what I had to deal with growing up. Who better to help these kids—the conventional system only has limited solutions. They’re still dealing with a lot of stuff. It doesn’t actually help them recover. This type of medicine can actually help them recover.


[00:39:33] Ashley James: Thank you so much for sharing your story. I love your story because it does show that we can look back and be really appreciative of the hard times.

If you haven’t been put on the lithium—those little things that didn’t seem significant—but now you look back, and you realize that was the pivotal moment that had me go in this direction and had me find naturopathy, and then had me find everything. All these little dominoes that don’t seem clear at the moment, but we can go back and look back and appreciate what has happened in our life, the good and the bad, to shape us into who we are now, and how you’re contributing to the world. If your mom had sent you to a homeopath back when you were six, you may not be helping hundreds of children now. It’s wonderful karma. Sometimes we can turn our suffering into helping healing thousands of people. I’d really love that.


[00:40:45] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: My practice name is Resilience Naturopathic, and it’s exactly because of that. It’s because every obstacle that we face can lead to so much transformative change and so much transformative good if we allow it. I’m fortunately an eternal optimist. I’m a pessimist for the very first minute of something so I can figure out the worst case scenario and then I’ll go back to my all optimistic place. If it worked for that, I wouldn’t be able to see all the opportunities, all of the suffering. What could have been tragedies, opened up for me in ways I’m able to connect and relate. It helps me when I’m talking to the moms. It helps me when I’m talking to my patients because they suddenly don’t feel as embarrassed when I can tell them, “How many holes have you punched in the wall when you get really mad?” And when I say, “I did it four times.” And they’re like, “Oh, okay.” They feel like they can talk to me in a way that I’m not going to judge them because I did it to, so why would I think bad things about them.

It’s a gift, and I think it made me a significantly better doctor, even a more relatable doctor to people as well. It increases the therapeutic relationship. If people don’t like the fact that I’ve had my own experiences, then I’m not the right person for them. That’s all good.


[00:42:08] Ashley James: I think I’ve said this on a recent interview. I would rather go to a doctor who has been sick in their past than go to a doctor who’s never been sick because how can they possibly relate? It’s like going to a personal trainer who’s never worked out or something. It’s like you wanted to—


[00:42:30] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Yeah. The weight loss coach who’s always been thin.


[00:42:33] Ashley James: Right. You want to work with someone who has that personal experience. They have so much more empathy. And also, they personally will have dove into the subject and become maybe more of an expert because they’re looking at helping themselves.

I absolutely love that you have the past you have. It has helped shape who you are as a doctor and give you the amount of compassion but also the amount of observation that you probably see things that other doctors don’t, that you observed things in your patients. Can adults develop PANS or PANDAS? Is this only something that is developed as a child?


[00:43:21] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: It’s developed as a child because that’s when we’re most susceptible to PANS and PANDAS, but it’s not just for kids. I’ve got a handful of adults in my practice that I’m pretty certain had PANS or PANDAS as a child and were misdiagnosed.

We’ve got adults that can still get strep. Typically, if you’re going to have an autoimmune response, it’s going to start in childhood, but not always. As I said earlier, it’s a cascade of events, like a soup that sort of all the ingredients come together to create the perfect situation that can lead to that susceptibility or to trigger that susceptibility.

We rarely see adults develop PANS or PANDAS out of nowhere, but it’s absolutely possible that people who are adults have PANS and PANDAS that was never correctly identified when they were children.


[00:44:07] Ashley James: A friend of mine who first told me about PANDAS because her daughter was diagnosed—this is a sad and ongoing story. She’s currently living in Texas, and I believe I’ve known her since her daughter was 5. Her daughter is maybe 12 or 13 right now. I’ve known her for a long time, and we’ve been close friends. I’ve observed her as a mother. She home-schools her child. She was incredibly healthy before getting this. She’s been gluten-free, organic, basically paleo diet; very athletic; many, many grades above her age; incredibly intelligent; and home-schooled so she gets all the personalized attention, but lots of socialization.

When I met her when she was six, she acted like she was ten. She was reading the Harry Potter novels—all of them. Very intelligent, well-spoken. And then she developed PANDAS in the recent years and started to get tics, very strange behavior changes, couldn’t focus, couldn’t concentrate, couldn’t look people in the eyes, started having seizures, couldn’t remember waking up in the night, having eaten food.

They would find food like a roast dragged into another room and find it on the bathroom floor or something. They’d find half eaten food in places. They’d even find frozen meat eaten, and the daughter has no memory of this. She would wake up in the middle of the night and eat and has no memory of this.

They were living in Texas, and the mom found a pediatric neurologist who figured out that she had a brain infection and got her on antibiotics, and then got her on anti-seizure medication which was very strong and had a ton of side symptoms. The mom tried to figure out what’s going on, and this is when she discovered that she has PANDAS.

She had a really bad episode and took her daughter to the emergency room, and the hospital didn’t believe that her daughter was sick, believed that the mother had made everything up in her head and that her mother was one of those parents who pretends their children are sick for attention.


[00:46:47] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Munchausen by proxy.


[00:46:48] Ashley James: They took her daughter away from her. Put her on a psychiatric ward. Even though she was on antiseizure medications with brain scans to prove and working with the pediatric neurologist, they ignored that. They got CPS involved, and CPS took her daughter away. Through this day, her daughter is out of her custody. They’re trying to battle it, but it’s very hard on them.

They immediately vaccinated the child with all the vaccines at once and put her on public school. She’s having bowel and urinary problems. She’s having tics and seizures. She just had pneumonia. The mother only can visit her once or twice a week. She’s not allowed to have any control of anything medical.


[00:47:44] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: But she sounds like she’s getting worse.


[00:47:46] Ashley James: Oh, yeah. She’s absolutely getting worse. But because the CPS brought in expert doctors to say that this is BS—“There’s no such thing as PANS and PANDAS. Your daughter doesn’t have it.” They are disregarding everything. They’re saying the mother was abusive to the daughter because the mother made up a diagnosis.


[00:48:04] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: I wish that this was the first time I heard a story like this, and it’s crushing my heart.


[00:48:09] Ashley James: I want to want the parents that if this could happen to a mother who I have known she’s never been abusive. She’s only been loving, and she’s doing the best she can. When you take your kid—I’m not saying you don’t take your kid to the ER if they need to. Please don’t withhold medical help, but go to the right doctors. Say the right things.

If they don’t have a respect for the diagnosis, they might try to take your kid away. This happened to one of my close friends and is still happening. It’s medical kidnapping. Of course, the system wants to protect the children, but is this protecting children–taking them away from the caregiver that cares about them the most?

We need to be very careful and walk a fine line. We need to do obviously, get many people on our medical team. Have many pediatricians. Have many experts. Seek the advice of many doctors, including Dr. Jennifer Bahr, who’s absolutely amazing in this arena. But we need to have many doctors on our side to make sure that we’re covering all our bases.

Unfortunately, this is happening to my friend. But this is the very sad story that led me to learn about PANS and PANDAS and led me to ask you to be on the show. Again like what we said, even though this is incredibly difficult and sad, hopefully in a few years we can look back and be grateful that this story, what my friend and her daughter went through, they’re able to turn this into something positive, and that we all can turn this into something positive.


[00:49:57] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Here’s hoping.


[00:50:01] Ashley James: You’ve heard about this kind of story before?


[00:50:03] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Yes, I have, unfortunately. It’s one of the biggest challenges that we’re facing in this community and that these parents face is that there aren’t enough doctors who are familiar with it or even aware of it. There are definitely doctors who are aware of it and think that it’s baloney like apparently her emergency physician thought and the expert witness thought.

One of the challenges that we face is that we got experts. We do have experts who treat this and who use various different types of medicine. There’s a lot of integrative immunologists and functional immunologists that refer to me that I have patients in common with. Same thing with neurologists. Some of the most highly respected doctors for PANS and PANDAS are not fans of integrative medicine or homeopathy, and they’ll likely stir their patients away.

Fortunately, PANS and PANDAS moms are really strong mama bears. They earned that moniker for sure. They will do what they feel is right and best for their kids. They won’t stop fighting for their kids, and to make sure that they get a solution. They’ll lean on each other, and they’ll support each other. That’s one positive thing about this horrible diagnosis is that it strengthens the community. These moms come together to support each other in ways that humbles and inspires me every single day. I see it in my group, and I hear it from the moms that I talk to. I feel like all of my patients know each other, even though they’ve never actually met in person.

One of the challenges that we face is because there’s so few of us that have solid expertise in comfort and know how to manage this complex condition. It is so complex that even if you look at one kid who has PANS or PANDAS, you’re looking at one kid. They’re not going to respond the same way. They’re not all going to have the same triggers. They’re not going to have the same reactions. They’re not going to respond the same way to different treatments and meds. That’s why it has to be so individualized.

People will travel all over the world to see doctors. I work with people all over the world, and so a lot of doctors—even conventionally trained doctors—people will travel from all over to see them, and they work long distance and remotely and everything.

The challenge though is that when you have a true emergency, if it’s getting to a point that I can give you a homeopathic remedy recommendation today, but you can’t get that remedy because we don’t have easy access to all of the remedies, like a local food health store. That’s going to take a couple of days for it to get to you through mail or ordering from a homeopathic pharmacy.

You may have to go to the emergency room beforehand, and I always try to have people do the best they can to find a local doctor who’s at least familiar with PANS and PANDAS, who has emergency room privileges, so that they can intervene.

I do not have that capacity to intervene for my patients in every aspect that I want to be able to. I’m hoping to do the work that I can to change that. I got a lot of the parents of my patients who have gotten to that point of recovery that now have the capacity to help other people because they’re no longer in crisis management mode for their child, that we’re working on getting PANS and PANDAS centers in these hospitals, so it can be recognized.

But there’s so much room for growth and so much need to grow because there are entire communities that people will have nobody to go to that is even remotely familiar with PANS or PANDAS, or worse, is familiar enough and thinks that it’s a bogus diagnosis. They treat mom like she’s crazy, and then medically kidnap your child. I wish that that was the first time I’d heard that, and it’s unfortunately not. It’s so heartbreaking.


[00:53:43] Ashley James: Let’s get into what you think is the perfect storm or the soup so that children now versus 40 years ago—grandparent listeners are going, “We all got strep, and none of us got this. What’s going on?” Whereas now it’s becoming really common that those with a well-developed PANS or PANDAS gets misdiagnosed as possibly a mental health issue or being on the spectrum or something else if the doctors know what PANS or PANDAS is?

It’s more and more common, but none of the doctors know to diagnose it correctly. Why is it now so common? What is happening in the physiology of our children now, the environment that they’re in, the food that they’re eating, the air that they’re breathing, the water they’re drinking, that are making their bodies susceptible to this?


[00:54:45] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: It’s super complicated, and I’m going to get a little bit wonky here. If I trail off in a way that gets confusing, bring me back, please.

It’s so many different things that are contributing to it. I think that part of it is that we have been waging war rather than practicing diplomacy in medicine. I had this existential crisis moment at a conference recently where all of these integrative doctors and functional doctors are focusing on all of the ways that we need to come back more. We need to come back to this factor. We need to manipulate this part of the microbiome and all of these different things where we’re going in with bombs trying to control so much of our environment rather than working with it. That’s one thing I love about homeopathy.

I finally came to this place. My existential crisis moment was where I was feeling like a general in an unjust war and that basically we ended up creating this—maybe a horrible metaphor, but I’m going to go with it because it works for me. If it doesn’t work for you, I’ll try something different. But it’s like this metaphor where somebody supported the Global War on Terror and The Operation Iraqi Freedom. I feel like we are doing Operation Iraqi Freedom again and that we are going in and trying to bomb the heck out of something that is a bad guy. In that work of trying to bomb the bad guy, trying to get Al-Qaeda out, trying to get Saddam Hussein out, and all of the things that happened regardless of what you feel about the start of those wars. Those wars led to ISIS, and ISIS is worse than Al-Qaeda.

And so I think about how we are doing that in our bodies. We’re going after these bugs, and these things and try to control them and manipulate, and we leave this vacuum. Other things come in that are opportunistic, and they’re worse for us. We’ve been exponentially increasing that war. Does my analogy sort of make sense to you?


[00:56:50] Ashley James: Yes. But what about the average person who hasn’t been waging a war on mold


[00:56:56] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: But we’ve all been doing it. We’ve been doing it without realizing it, so we’ve been doing it by giving an antibiotic for every sniffle that we have. We’ve been doing it by giving antibiotics to our food livestock. We’ve been doing it by using antibacterial soaps. We’ve been doing it by getting super hygiene focused. So, we’ve been waging all these wars indirectly.

Even if I’m not taking a ton of antibiotics in my mouth, people around me have been. I’ve been going to the restroom and public restrooms and antibacterial soap and using that. My mom definitely gave me antibiotics when I probably didn’t need it because I wasn’t doing well, and it’s hard to wait out a virus.

And pediatricians succumb to parental pressure frequently, and they give something because you don’t want to go to the doctor and say, “I’m paying all this money to be told to do nothing.” There’s that.

Waging war on our environment by creating better living through chemistry. We are increasing the toxicity of mold by our chemicals that we use on paint, some things that we’re protecting wood with. Mold only create toxins in response to man-made chemicals. It is fighting against us because we’re fighting against it. We are just in this back and forth war.

So whether we’re taking the pills, the pills are happening. The changes in our environment are happening. The toxins are changing. Our food is changing. That’s another contributing factor. We have less nutritious food because of policies from the big government and where farmers are getting subsidies for which things that they’re producing. It’s growing the use of things like glyphosate and other pesticides that impact our nervous system.

If we’re eating fresh fruits and vegetables, but we’re eating conventionally grown fresh fruits and vegetables, those are causing inflammation to our nervous system, and impacts on our immune system and endocrine system. All of it is affected by the chemicals that we use, and the nutrients are being depleted on our soil because of farming practices and how they have changed. We have lower nutrients, more toxins on the foods that we’re eating that have less nutrition in the first place, and we’re processing things a lot.

When I was growing up, my mom made an awful lot of things from scratch. I grew up as the child of farmers. I didn’t grow up on a farm, but my parents were farmers, and they had grown up on farms, so maybe that’s a component of it. Maybe this happened even before for some people where there are a lot more processed foods.

Lunchables was not a thing. It was a brand new thing when I was in middle school or high school. It was not something that we got regularly. We didn’t get a lot of processed foods. It was a treat to get sugary cereal because we almost never got those kinds of thing. We’re processing things that remove the nutrients.

Here’s a big one—I’m sure a lot of your listeners, and you have heard about the genetic polymorphism, the SNP for MTHFR. It’s rampant in the population. It shouldn’t be that big of a problem. That means they’ve been having people passing down MTHFR variants for years.

The difference is that we haven’t always been eating foods that are enriched with folic acid, and folic acid clogs up malfunctioning MTHFR genes, the enzymes that they code for to be more precise. And so, we are eating less nutritious food that has toxins covered all over it in environments where we’ve got antibiotics in all of the foods that we’re eating. Hormones used to manipulate the food livestock that we are consuming. We’re heating our processed foods in plastic. We’re going to sleep in houses that are filled with chemicals that are themselves toxic, but then also create toxic mold exposure when they get wet and have leaks and all that.

It’s so many things. It’s genetics. It’s the environment. It’s the microbiome and the impacts that we’ve had on the microbiome. It’s how we’re eating because most of the parents that I work with, they brought up eating a standard American diet, which has a lot of processed food before their child gets sick because of convenience. We overworked ourselves, which means we don’t have time to tend to ourselves anymore.

I can be super guilty of this, too. I had to have these conversations with myself all the time. “No, it’s time to get up.” And when you get up, you need to do your meditation and your yoga. You need to eat a healthy breakfast. It needs to be all these different things. If I take the easy thing, I’m not going to be able to take care of my patients because I’m not taking care of myself.

But our diet impacts on the microbiome with one meal. One meal is all it takes to change the make-up of our microbiome. And so when we’re constantly eating these things that feed the bad guys and starve the good guys, we’re already creating an imbalance. Then when we throw in antibiotics for colds that don’t react to antibiotics, we throw in the inflammatory response that we’re having to all these chemicals in our environment, it’s surprising that we don’t all have this kind of thing.

We see autoimmunity show up rampantly in the society, at least in American society, whether it’s PANS or PANDAS. This is just one particular form of it. We see a lot more autoimmunity, a lot more thyroid condition and thyroid dysfunction as a result of autoimmunity. It’s a lot of GAD autoimmunity coming out a lot more frequently, too. It’s really a problem.


[01:02:49] Ashley James: Absolutely. I love it. I think you painted that picture perfectly. I didn’t have to rope you in. You didn’t go on any crazy tangents. That was well done. I’ve had other experts on the show talked about different things that you’ve brought out.

Dr. Ben Lynch, he was on episode 225. It’s about dirty genes, a really good episode for those of you who want to learn more about MTHFR or supporting the body in the face of those SNPs. But it’s very interesting about how our food supply has been contaminated by man-made contaminant. We’re intentionally putting folic acid into the food to help prevent one disease and ends up harming so many people who can’t metabolize that, that need methylated B vitamins.


[01:03:43] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: All of these moms that are not only eating foods that have folic acid in it, they’ve been taking a well-intention recommendation for prenatal which has folic acid, when that might be making things worse for their kiddo.

Again, the clinical practice of medicine has to catch up to the research, and it takes so many years for it to catch up. I think that that’s part of it, too. We’re playing catch up from our good intentions.


[01:04:12] Ashley James: I want to get into the questions that we have in the Facebook group and how to help the parents and the children who have PANS and PANDAS.

But first, I want to cover for everyone, for 100% of the population, how can we prevent PANDAS and PANS? It sounds like one of the ways we can prevent it is by, like you’ve mentioned, being diligent with our diet; eating clean food; going that extra mile to make sure the food is clean; to make sure water is clean too; make sure that we’re not waging a war against things. But we understand that there needs to be that balance, so looking to support the environment and the body. What other ways can we help to prevent PANS and PANDAS in the first place?


[01:05:02] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: I’m going to be a bit of a bummer here. I don’t know yet, and I don’t know that you can. That’s one of the reasons that homeopathy becomes so vital is because ultimately, it’s not about all of these things. If you have this perfect environment, like perfect diet and your whole family never took any antibiotics, you only ate food that you raised on your organic farm, all of those things. I’ve got patients like that who still have PANS and PANDAS.

It’s not necessarily something you can control, which is where homeopathy becomes this vital linchpin for these kids because homeopathy doesn’t require us knowing exactly what happened in the body or exactly what the underlying cause or trying to manipulate biochemistry or neurotransmitters. What homeopathy does is it treats susceptibility, and that’s really what it comes down to. We have to focus on these again and again.

A lot of parents, when they got the diagnosis of PANS or PANDAS, they get so focused on that bug, and we’re just perpetuating that battle approach to health instead of the diplomacy approach to health.

I will say that homeopathy is more diplomacy because it’s nudging the body in the direction to heal itself; to repair its immune function; to repair its immune response; to restore balance to its hormones and neurotransmitters which we see. We see lab values change with homeopathic medicine when it’s done well. It just takes time.

Homeopathy is treating that susceptibility because you see this all the time. You see parents where their entire life was leading up to prevention of anything—perfect health, exactly what you would recommend as a prevention, and their kiddos still get it. You’ll see that one kid in the family gets it and another doesn’t. And so it’s that one child for whatever reason has that susceptibility and we can’t always identify if this is SNP, if this is gene, if this is bug, if this is whatever. It’s their unique susceptibility and homeopathy treats that.

We also see it happen where I’ve got kids that I treat who are adopted, and all of the kids in the family have it despite the fact that they’re adopted. So it’s not just genes, and it’s not just environment. It’s both. It’s a big question mark for that last little pieces. We, as of right now, define it as susceptibility and that’s where homeopathy comes in.

I wish I could give your listeners some better hope that if you do this exactly right that they’re going to avoid PANS or PANDAS for their kiddo. Unfortunately, that’s not likely to be the case.


[01:07:47] Ashley James: However, we should still eat organic. Do the best we can to make sure our body is optimally healthy.

Eleven years ago, I was very sick. I could barely function. I was constantly on antibiotics. I had type 2 diabetes, chronic adrenal fatigue, chronic infections, polycystic ovarian syndrome, infertility. I had brain fog so bad; I couldn’t process human language in the morning. It took me about 11 AM before I could understand what people are saying. I was really sick.

And we saw this health documentary. Because this was back in 2008, Netflix is just starting to have health documentaries on. The first one we watched streaming, there was the original CEO, the original creator of Whole Foods talking about health and what their mission. He said, “Vote with your fork,” and I understood.

They also talked about shopping on the perimeter. It was like, “Okay. We’re doing it. We’re going to Whole Foods.” We live in Las Vegas at that time. It’s very difficult to get clean food there. We went to Whole Foods, and we shopped their perimeter, which was hard because we’re anticipating not the standard American diet at that point. But we shopped the perimeter which means not going to the aisles where the processed foods are, so we’re eating meat, vegetables, dairy, fruit and that’s it.

We did that, and we chose 100% organic, and in one month I woke up and I realized that that was the first month I didn’t need to be on antibiotics. That was the first month since I could remember that I wasn’t sick. I wasn’t getting an infection so bad that I couldn’t function. It was like, “Oh, my gosh. In less than a month of just eating organic, my immune system recovered.”


[01:09:41] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Probably, it wasn’t just organic. It was organic and more nutrients then, and it was less inflammatory. It was multiple things. I didn’t mean to say that we should keep eating and deal with it when it comes, like eat your McDonald’s and deal with it because you’re going to get PANS and PANDAS anyway. Absolutely not.

My husband worked in conservation before he left to help me run my practice, so I could focus on being a doctor and like be the best doctor I could and all the administrative things. He worked on conservation, so we’re both passionate about the environment as well. It’s part of how we fall in love. It’s in the mountains. And so, we’re focused on the environment which is part of this existential crisis.

Are we doing things that are destroying the environment and our health at the same time by our unintentional or convenience-focused mindset? And so I would say that absolutely, we all need to focus on having not just a health-conscious diet but an environmentally conscious diet because the environment and the impacts of the environment have made a big difference for people with autoimmunity and especially these kids.

It’s about how we have to process trash. Are you buying things that are gluten-free, dairy-free, vegan, whole foods in a box? That’s not what you should you be doing. That’s still processed food. That still creates trash. A lot of energy still went into making it, and it’s still going to have impacts in your body. We’re not supposed to eat these processed foods. Absolutely, we should be doing our best effort to eat organic foods, and yes, you vote with your fork. Yes, there is some issue, people were always bringing up we have cross-contamination and all these different things. The more people who are demanding organic produce, the more people are going to grow it.

The better practices that they’re going to have are the soil management and the nutrition value of the foods, and the less that we got to have exposure to these toxic chemicals that are creating so much inflammation and hyperpermeability of our gut, otherwise known as the “leaky gut.” All these things are contributing to all of these chronic illnesses. Definitely, think about the environment because what’s good for the environment is good for your health.

I’m a firm believer that to be a truly holistic and integrative doctor, you have to think about the environment as well as your health.


[01:12:11] Ashley James: Absolutely. I’m highly allergic to dairy, and I’m still eating dairy back then. When I took dairy off that was another life-changing event. When I took gluten off, that was another life-changing event. So for me, every time I take out something I’m allergic to and add in more whole foods, it’s life-changing. I’m still learning. We’re all still learning. I’m still learning, and I love learning from experts like you because you’re reaffirming what my body keeps telling me.

What we keep learning every time that we eat healthily is that our body can heal really quickly or can go downhill really quickly depending on our diet.


[01:12:51] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: The question about what is healthy or what is the best diet, people always ask these things. This is one reason that one of the moms that I worked with for several years who’s seen her child recover from PANDAS that we are working together to put some programs together to help moms learn how to do these because one person thinks it’s healthy. I have people come to me, and they have a pretty healthy diet, but when they tell me what they’re eating, I’m like, “Do you realize you’re giving so much sugar? Yes, it’s might be a better form of sugar. It’s not white processed sugar, but you’re still feeding the bugs that are not helping your kiddo feel better.”

And so, we’re working on helping moms learn how to navigate this. One reason why I’m partnering with one of the moms that I worked with is because there’s only so much that a doctor can tell you. When the rubber hits the road, and you got to get your kiddo to eat these things or to change the way that they’re living and to change their diet, it can be really hard. And so having both doctor and mom together can be really helpful to get the good information and then how to make it happen.


[01:13:54] Ashley James: Absolutely, and I highly recommend that listeners go to your Facebook group, Homeopathy for PANS & PANDAS. Search that in Facebook or go to the show notes of today’s podcast because a link will be there as well at

You’re writing a book, is that correct?


[01:14:16] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Yes, we’re starting with a book first and foremost. But the intention is to start with a book that’s a guide for moms on how to navigate PANS and PANDAS. How to identify and how to navigate all the different things that go into treatment, from the conventional approach to the natural and functional approach to homeopathy. As I said, it’s a mom’s story, a doctor’s tips, and a mom’s advice on how to make it happen. And then the plan is to offer a program as well, to help moms who need a little bit more support in implementing the things that we’ve talked about in the book.


[01:14:49] Ashley James: Got it. But listeners at this point who know that their kids need some extra support from a doctor, you do take individual clients through Skype, is that correct?


[01:15:01] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Yeah, through long distance through another program, but yeah, we do work with people virtually.


[01:15:07] Ashley James: Got it. But maybe not Skype because you needed to be secure for medical reasons I understand. Let’s get to these questions. I’m so eager to hear your answers.

So Elaina says, “Are there natural alternatives to the prophylactic antibiotics, antivirals into supporting the immune system during bacterial, fungal or viral flares? What about absence seizures, motor tics?


[01:15:30] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: That’s a hefty question. There are natural herbs and things like that that you can use that work in a similar way to antibiotics. I have mixed feelings about using them just because there’s not as much evidence behind them. I will use them, especially if somebody is sensitive, but you can still have sensitivities to herbs that have similar actions in the body as an antibiotic.

You can also develop a resistance to the herbs. There was a research presentation shared in our annual conference last year that was fantastic. That was also scary. That shows that you can develop antibiotic resistance to antimicrobial herbs just like you can to the antibiotics themselves, and it happens pretty quickly in the test that they did.

There are things that you can use. It’s going to be up to the individual. This is probably going to get a little bit frustrating, but like what I’ve said earlier, a lot of these kids, if you’ve seen one kid with PANS or PANDAS, you’ve seen one kid with PANS and PANDAS. They have similarities, but they’re still so individualized, and what works for one person isn’t going to work for another.

There are some supplements that can be used to help mitigate yeast. Caprylic acid is one that’s used pretty frequently. Saccharomyces boulardii—it’s a yeast-hating yeast. People will give that oftentimes if they’re using the prophylactic antibiotics. Other herbs, like I said there’s not as much evidence behind them, so I’m always hesitant to use them because I have homeopathy as one of my tools. When we’re using homeopathy and when we’re using other natural therapies in my approach, we’re working trying to get people off of needing to take these things long term because we want the immune system fighting it the way it’s supposed to, not having to take all of these supplements and tons of pills, whether they’re natural or conventional just to fight off the infection. We want the infection to be handled and managed by the body the way that it’s meant to.

There’s another further question, but I don’t remember the other part.


[01:17:46] Ashley James: What about absence seizures and motor tics?


[01:17:51] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Those are things that are the susceptibility where homeopathy is going to be the most important component. The conventional medications that are used to control seizures do not have a one for one replacement. Most things in the psychiatric realm don’t have a one for one replacement, and on the rare occasion they do, for instance, Saint John’s wort can be a replacement for an SSRI, it has the same action in the body. The challenge that you face is that they weren’t standardized. If you’re getting something, whether it’s from your naturopathic doctor or your functional medicine doctor or you’re buying something over the counter from Whole Foods or another health food store, one company’s version is going to be different. You need to make sure that you’re getting the right part of the plant. I never recommend that people try one for one replacement because they’re probably not getting it, exactly the way that they’re hoping to get it.

But when it comes to the anti-seizure medications, there isn’t something that’s a clear, natural replacement. People will do things like using the ketogenic diet, which I have mixed feelings about because it has a lot of impacts on the microbiome as well. It’s very hyper-restrictive. I think that we sometimes are looking for a solution right now and don’t think about the long-term implications. I think the ketogenic diet can be that for some people. It is clinically useful for severe, intractable seizures but not specifically absence seizures.

The good news is homeopathy. When you use an individually prescribed remedy based off of your child’s overall presentation as a whole person, you’re going to be treating absence seizure and tics as well.


[01:19:41] Ashley James: Excellent. If a parent has a child with PANS or PANDAS, and they’re doing everything they can to keep them super healthy and then they are not on any medications right now, but then they’re worried that their child is having a bacterial, viral or fungal infection, the best thing to do is to talk to their naturopathic pediatrician to see what they can do.

Are there times when you would say, “We need a medication”?


[01:20:13] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Yes. I will say that because of the issue that we’ve talked about earlier in the very beginning of our conversation about strep, I actually will tell parents to get their kids on antibiotics for many reasons that include the cost and insurance coverage, and all these different things, and even willingness to take medications. The herbs that we need to use do not taste good, so a lot of kids will not take them. You have to take into consideration not only like a strict philosophy, to look at what’s the best tool and which thing can you do.

I’m also not a big fan of doing tons and tons of tests if there’s not something that you can actually act on after the test. I test for things when I need to test for them. I will test for infections if they haven’t already been identified if I’m going to start an antibiotic to make sure we’re starting the right one. But yeah, I’m more likely to recommend antibiotics at this point than herbs because I know that with the tool of homeopathy, I’m not going to need them forever.


[01:21:17] Ashley James: Great. That is, of course, if they have a bacterial infection, not if they have a fungal or viral infection.


[01:21:23] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Exactly.


[01:21:24] Ashley James: Right. Daniel asks, “How to know when we can stop antibiotics? My daughter has been on them since September. I’m currently waning her off to see how she responds.” I had asked her for a bit more information to clarify, and she says that her daughter has PANDAS from strep and her normal symptoms are gone right now. Thanks to long-term antibiotics, gluten-free, dairy-free diet, and supplements. She’s wondering if she takes her off antibiotics, will all the symptoms return? How does removing antibiotics affect her inflammation, brain, and behavior, when she takes her off the antibiotics?


[01:22:10] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: It depends on what the antibiotics are. There are a lot of kids who worked well, who do well on Augmentin, which is a combination of amoxicillin and clavulanic acid. One of the theories to why Augmentin works better than plain amoxicillin is because the clavulanic acid has some anti-inflammatory components to anti-inflammatory effects. There are a lot of theories that the long-term use of the antibiotics is for a more anti-inflammatory component.

Most people, if they’re doing well, they can come off the antibiotics, and they may do fine for a while. Unfortunately, there’s not a clear cut when this happens, then your kid’s ready to come off and is going to do fine and not have any return of symptoms.

It may be that your child is fine for a while until another big exposure comes that they’re susceptible to, and then they get sick again. I do still think that it’s a good idea to get people off long term antibiotics that are prophylactic antibiotics if they can, because of the impacts that it’s having on the gut by taking this long-term antibiotic.

The thing is when we try work to get these kids off especially if you’re not using a type of medicine, like a homeopathic approach, then we don’t know for sure how well your child has been healing in the process. Usually, when I’m working with patients, I have people gradually wane them off when they’re doing well. And we then can manipulate and change the homeopathic remedy to help the body restore balance when we start to see symptoms return.

In some kids, we’ll have issues come up randomly like loose teeth. Loose teeth actually can cause a really big problem for these kids because it disrupts biofilms. There’s a lot of things that could come into play that may or may not be related to just stopping the antibiotic.

It may be a new exposure, and if they’re getting worse, it’s because you haven’t treated that susceptibility. You’re just going in trying to kill the bug rather than treating the fact why did your child get this as a response to the bug in the first place. That’s a really big component that seems to turn the light on to a lot of moms that I work and to a lot of moms in the group that we host. It’s that susceptibility piece I’ve talked about earlier because like I said one kid in the family can get PANS or PANDAS and the others don’t.

I had mycoplasma pneumonia in November. Why did I get pneumonia and not get OCD? Because I don’t have that susceptibility to mycoplasma, causing that for me, whereas a lot of my patients would get the mycoplasma that has no signs of pneumonia. They would have intractable OCD and terrible tics.

We still have to focus on that susceptibility, not just the antibiotics. I’m afraid that if you haven’t been doing anything other than antibiotics that you’re likely to have a resurgence at some point. And so it’s really important to get other therapies in that can help the body to heal and recover, and then treat that susceptibility with homeopathy.


[01:25:07] Ashley James: It sounds like she’s doing some diet and some supplement components. I’ve had that experience. I was misdiagnosed once and given antibiotics, and then all of a sudden within an hour, I got better.

It was crazy. I said, “This is amazing. I feel amazing. I can’t believe how fast that works.” And they’re like, “Oh, okay.” And then they figured out it wasn’t an infection. It was just a lot of inflammation. The anti-inflammatory effects of the antibiotic are what I benefitted from. I didn’t have an infection. It was a raging inflammation.

So, for a child who’s benefitting from six months or more of taking an antibiotic, you’re saying that likely it’s the anti-inflammatory effects. If it’s the antibiotics that are anti-inflammatory, would you then have them take like cortisone, some other supplements to help decrease inflammation and look at diet to make sure there’s nothing pro-inflammatory in them to support the body as a whole to be very anti-inflammatory, and then take them off of the antibiotic and see how they do?


[01:26:26] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Yes, exactly. There are already supplements. There are undoubtedly going to be some anti-inflammatory supplements. I don’t know a single PANS or PANDAS kiddo, who has come to see me on supplements which don’t have at least three or four anti-inflammatories. Different kids are going to respond to different supplements individually.

Some kids do well with something like turmeric, fish oil. Some don’t do so well. That’s going to depend on their neurotransmitter make-up and genetic make-up, whether they have histamine reactivity, how their body clears histamine, how their body clears other neurotransmitters. I’m always hesitant to give specific supplement advice because it’s so individualized. Does that make sense?


[01:27:10] Ashley James: Absolutely. Anyone who’s listening, this is information. We’re not treating or diagnosing anything. Please take this information and see your doctor. See a naturopathic pediatrician. See Dr. Jennifer Bahr. Take this information and get a professional’s advice with it.

What about NAC as an anti-inflammatory? Is that one that you’ve seen these mothers give their children?


[01:27:39] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: I’ve seen a lot of kids on it. Recently, I got a patient who got worse on NAC. Supplements are just like medications that we can have adverse reactions to them. I hate to keep going back to genetics. As much as we know about genetics and Dr. Ben Lynch is fantastic—I learned a lot from him—there’s only so much that we know/ When we’re trying to force one pathway, we can back up other pathways. We can overcrowd things. I’m one of those people who have MTHFR, COMT, MAO, SNPs, and all of these things. If I overdo it in one way, I will feel terrible on the other end. So, it’s really about finding the individual balance.

Again, I keep coming back on homeopathy, but homeopathy works on the epigenetic level. It helps us make the best of what we have so that we do not have to manipulate things.

Back to the question with NAC, it’s a precursor for glutathione which is our major antioxidant in the body, and it’s a really important component for detoxification which is obviously with all of the things that we’ve talked about that soup earlier. Detoxification is important for any human being living today, especially important for these kids who are so inflamed. Their bodies are on fire.

It’s an important component, but how our body can make their transition to NAC to the glutathione is going to be different. Honestly, there are a lot of helpful studies. That NAC can be really helpful for OCD and tics.

I’ve tried it a handful of times with patients and not seen the magic that I’m looking for. I’m envious of these other integrative doctors who are reporting magic from some of these supplements that I don’t see. Maybe it’s because I have the magical homeopathy that really can transform people’s lives very quickly in very dramatic ways that I expect too much from supplements. So, it’s a problem.


[01:29:38] Ashley James: I like it. It’s a good problem to have


[01:29:41] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Yeah, but it can be useful.


[01:29:43] Ashley James: Lisa brings up an interesting point. She says, “I often wonder if it’s really strep that triggers these kids or if it’s after they were given antibiotics for strep, and now they have yeast overgrowth in the gut.”


[01:29:55] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Yeast can play a role, but I don’t think it’s the yeast, and I don’t think it’s the strep either. That’s where we come back to that susceptibility. If they are having this reaction to strep, it’s their susceptibility to it because most people can get exposed to strep and not have an autoimmune response to it or don’t have this specific autoimmune response.

Yeast doesn’t help things definitely because yeast impacts how our neurotransmitters are produced. A lot of our neurotransmitters are made by our microbiome. Nutrients are made by our microbiome. It manipulates things in a way that doesn’t help, but I don’t think that yeast causes it. I don’t think that it’s because of antibiotics. I do think that the frequent use of antibiotics can contribute to dysbiosis that works against us, but I don’t think the yeast causes it.


[01:30:50] Ashley James: Interesting. I’ve had a few doctors on the show sharing some really interesting insights through their research. One doctor, who’s not a physician, she’s a researcher—you probably heard of Dr. Stephanie Seneff. I’ve had her on the show twice.

She links glyphosate in our food and the MMR vaccine with the increased rates of disease and neurologically more children in the spectrum, glyphosate being a chelatorthat is putting heavy metals into our kidney and our nervous system, and crossing the blood-brain barrier.

And then I recently had a naturopathic pediatrician on the show say that she believes that vaccines are not the sole cause of autism, but she believes that it is the use of Tylenol after a child receives vaccines that is the major contributor—of course, the environment of the body. Everything can be that perfect storm or that soup like you say, and the environment of the body is very important.

She believes that what tips children over is the use of Tylenol. Because it also crosses the blood-brain barrier, it impacts how the liver detoxes and produces glutathione. So you’re ramping a child’s immune system up with vaccine and then dampening it with Tylenol which is confusing the body.

We have these different theories, but it’s all very modern day things we’re doing to the body that we didn’t have around 200 years ago. We see, as you’ve mentioned, several things. Our genetics have not caught up to this modern world where we’re constantly bombarding our bodies with chemicals that are unseen or we don’t think about. This is only within the few generations that the environment that the body was in, and these are all new man-made diseases basically that are coming up as a result of our lifestyle. We see this taking place. PANS and PANDAS are now so prevalent because they are man-made diseases. They are triggered by, like what you said, what’s happening in our environment and the body’s environment.

Lisa also goes on to asks, “We never went for the antibiotic route but instead focus on healing the gut. My kids are only triggered by yeast overgrowth in the gut, and their labs show mold toxicity. I want to know if my children will ever outgrow PANS? What is happening to the brain when their yeast is high? How can something like yeast trigger OCD and tics and changes in her children’s personality completely?” She’s very thankful that we’re doing it this interview.


[01:33:44] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Yes, your child can outgrow PANS or PANDAS. I see it happen all the time in my practice. I don’t know if it’s possible if you don’t include homeopathy because again we have to treat that susceptibility. We’re not living in bubbles, and when we try to put people in bubbles, we create other issues. They will be exposed to things, and if we don’t help repair that susceptibility, there is a chance that they’ll have another flare or resurgence or regression with the PANS or PANDAS.

Mold is absolutely a big trigger, and if your child is more triggered by mold, absolutely yeast is going to play a role in that because they’re both fungi. One of the challenges that we’re dealing with when we have yeast overgrowth is that we usually have some level of intestinal hyperpermeability or leaky gut. There’s a lot more evidence that shows that when we have leaky gut, we also have leaky brain. That’s one of the ways that we’re getting things into our brain and across that blood-brain barrier that aren’t meant to be there; and how we end up having the brain fog and the changes in our mood that are contributed to the things that are going on in our gut.

This is in part because we end up getting things into our bloodstream that aren’t meant to be there. Our gut is meant to be this fantastic guardian for us where things have a very specific process to break things down so we got this tiniest little bit of particles that can get into our body and they’re broken down to points that they’re not recognizable as a foreign invader.

When we are not doing well with our digestion, and our gut is leaky, we get things that are bigger particles into our bloodstream that we then recognize as foreign invaders. That’s how we get food allergies. We have things that look like they are bacteria trying to come and invade us, so the immune system ramped up, and then we get inflammation, and then the inflammation can lead to more permeability of capillaries and different tissues. It’s a self-perpetuating cycle that keeps going. I think that we have to get the gut healed. It sounds like she’s focusing on that and getting the gut back into control.

I would still recommend adding in homeopathy to treat that susceptibility because, as I said earlier, one meal can change the make-up of your microbiome. We don’t want to live in a world where we have to have such super strict control because we also want to have that joy and that pleasure.

Kids with PANS or PANDAS that have been prisoners in their homes, in many cases, these kids won’t go to school. They won’t leave home. They’re afraid to sleep. They’re so scared. These kids are tortured. They’re prisoners of their mind, and they’re prisoners of their own homes because of this condition. But when they start to feel better, you would want them to go and eat some birthday cake every once in a while.

The way that you can allow that to happen is if we treat that susceptibility, and yes make sure that we maintain as good a diet as we possibly can so that we’re not eating birthday cake seven times a day or seven times a week. But that we want our kids to be able to have that stress release because stress also causes inflammation. Not being able to be a part of a social community also contributes to inflammation and worsening of outcomes, so it’s about balance really.


[01:37:17] Ashley James: You know that leads perfectly into Lisa’s part two of her question. She goes, “Please ask about low dose naltrexone. My daughter doesn’t need, but we struggle more with my son. We have addressed diet for years now. They are on a whole food, clean diet. If I restrict my son’s diet anymore, he will grow up hating me. My daughter has no issues and loves her diet, but my son tells me all the time that when he sees his friends eat foods he can’t have, he gets upset. I’m not willing to remove any more foods from him. What are your thoughts on low-dose naltrexone for those with PANS and PANDAS?”


[01:37:52] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: I don’t use it in my practice because I don’t need to. With homeopathy as my main tool that I start everybody with, it’s just never been something that I’ve seen be necessary. I know a lot of people do use it with great success. It can help with some immune system rebalancing. I’m not sure specifically about food allergies. So hopefully you have an LDN expert to come on or already have one that you can reference for people to talk to get a better answer about that one.


[01:38:19] Ashley James: Do you know one that I could interview?


[01:38:22] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: I can look and see who. There’s someone who gave a talk about it at our last conference. I could look up who that was.


[01:38:30] Ashley James: Yeah, if you’d recommend them. I’d love that.

Bunny asked, and I love this question, “I know fever is the body’s natural way of killing off foreign organisms. The world wants to reduce fever ASAP, but we know that we need to keep a fever for a time to help the body kill the infection. How long and how high should it go? What temperature do we not want to go over?”

I had a pediatric naturopathic doctor say that 108 is when we should start worrying, whereas other doctors will say 104 is when we need to give the kids Tylenol. What is your take on fevers for children?


[01:39:08] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: I always say 104. I stay with the standard at 104 just because there are some greater risks if we don’t address things at 104. 104 is basically the cut-off, when I tell people that they need to get to the emergency room if they can’t get the fever under control with an antipyretic.


[01:39:30] Ashley James: Would you give herb that helps to break the fever cycle or is that when you recommend an over-the-counter medication?


[01:39:37] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: I’ll have them go on an NSAID.


[01:39:40] Ashley James: Is there homeopathy you would try first?


[01:39:44] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Yes, I would get them for an acute appointment so that we could find the right remedy for that particular case. One remedy that most parents will use that can be indicated but is not always indicated is belladonna. It’s really good when we’re having high fevers, especially if there are behavioral symptoms with the fevers. It’s generally really good in inflammation, but it’s not the be all, end all. While it works for a lot of kids, and the flare or with the fever, it’s not always going to be the right remedy.

We’ve talked about this. It’s a good point for me to bring up right now. We’ve talked about it before that yes, there’s not a negative side effect to homeopathy which makes it generally pretty safe. I will say that for kids with PANS and PANDAS, they are so sensitive that they are more likely to have different reactions to homeopathy than what might be typically expected, including a really positive reaction that seems really negative, which is called an initial therapeutic aggravation, where symptoms get a little bit worse before they get better.

Some people will call it a healing crisis. Some parents will see that as actually doing worse when it could be a positive sign. In some cases, there are some kids who actually can have a negative reaction to homeopathy because they’re so darn sensitive, and so it’s not something that I recommend people do on their own based off what they are hearing from people in groups because it’s not as easy to manage in a really sensitive kid who has PANS or PANDAS.

Back to your original question, yes, I would work on it with a homeopathic remedy, and if we couldn’t get it under control quickly enough, that’s when we would be looking at managing the fever and getting it under control using an over-the-counter med.


[01:41:27] Ashley James: Got it. Those with PANS or PANDAS, you want to make sure they’re 104 or less, is it because they’re more sensitive or more susceptible?


[01:41:35] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Well because that’s when we start to have more issues with potential damage to the brain with fevers. I’ll be perfectly honest. Most of the kids who have PANS or PANDAS don’t get fevers until they’re recovering. So when I start to see fevers with PANS or PANDAS, I’m celebrating and doing cartwheels down the hallway in my office because most of these kids are coming to me where the mom says, “They were so healthy. They never got sick. They have this perfect immune system.”

No. They weren’t developing antibodies the way that they should, and they didn’t have the appropriate immune response. I can’t tell you how many kids never got sick, and then suddenly, this happens. A lot of kids too that there was never any sign of strep or never any sign of illness. They just had the behavioral symptoms, and if they have not stumbled upon something like PANS or PANDAS, they’ve never even thought to do a rapid strep test.

The kids who were always fine and never had fevers, often there’s something else going on there. Honestly, when people start to get a fever, I’m super happy, and I don’t try to suppress it until it gets at 104. And yes, we use homeopathy to whether we’re adjusting their chronic remedy. Sometimes you need to adjust their chronic remedy whenever one of those things come up or switch to a short-term acute remedy before we move on to a different potency or preparation of their chronic remedy to help them get through an acute illness.


[01:42:59] Ashley James: Got it. To wrap it up on these questions, she wants to know how long can a child have a fever safely.


[01:43:07] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: I don’t remember what the guidelines are.


[01:43:10] Ashley James: If a child has a fever, that is actually a good thing. I get excited when my son has a fever because I know his immune system is kicking in. We can celebrate and not get scared. I think the parents get scared when their child has a fever, but what we need to do is be happy. Of course, monitor them. Hydrate them. Be in touch with their pediatrician, but be happy knowing the body is mounting a defense or a response.


[01:43:36] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Ultimately when it comes to fevers and management of fever, stay on regular communication with your pediatrician because a fever could be a positive thing or it could be a sign of something going in the wrong direction depending on what’s going on. So don’t listen to me or anybody else who’s giving a blanket response about a fever. Talk to your doctor so that you can make sure you’re getting the right information for your kiddo.

I’d hate to miss meningitis or something like that because you’re waiting too long and that’s the thing. Even with strep, like what we’ve talked about earlier, it has to be treated early to prevent some of these things happening to the kidneys and the heart.

Like the test that you had when you were an undergrad, it’s important that we get early intervention. Don’t suppress a fever once you have ruled out other major life-threatening things that can cause a fever. Is that better?


[01:44:30] Ashley James: Absolutely. Can you tell us for those who don’t know? It’s so funny because I always want to take my son to the doctor. Our pediatrician is a naturopath, so she spends at least half an hour. I feel pampered. I love seeing naturopathic physicians. I want to take him all the time when he has issues, not when nothing is going on. But my husband’s always looking at me like, “Really?” He goes, “My mom never took me to the doctor. I don’t know why we have to. Kids get sick, and then they got better. Why are we going to the doctor?”

It’s because I know it’s better to be safe than sorry. But for us who don’t know the signs and symptoms of strep, can you tell us what it is we’re looking for? We don’t want to be the hyperactive parents who every sniff, every sniffle, we end up in the doctor’s office. We also don’t want to feel like idiots taking your kid to the doctor’s office for every sniffle and the doctors giving you a look like, “Your kid is fine. Go home.” But we also don’t want to under react and miss strep. So what are the signs and symptoms of strep?


[01:45:42] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Obviously, the sore throat that doesn’t go away. Fever can be part of it but not always. With kids with PANS and PANDAS, they might have no signs. It may just be behavioral things that are sudden when we’re looking at the behavioral components. If there’s a sudden, seemingly overnight change in your child’s behavior; they were fine last night. They woke today, and they are telling you that their brain is being mean and saying the same things. They can’t stop thinking about something. They have a random tic. Get them checked for strep.

The strawberry tongue is a pretty pathognomonic component for strep, so that’s where the tongue looks like a strawberry. It’s bright red and a little bit swollen. There can be spots on the throat too. So, taking a look and seeing if the throat is swollen, inflamed, irritated, and then like I said that strawberry tongue and some spots on the throat.

Just take a look at your kid. Don’t just ask them how they feel. Look inside in their mouth and see if there’s something unusual. Look inside your kid’s mouth right now while you’re listening to this and see what it looks like normally, so you got something to compare to.

You don’t necessarily need to rush off to the doctor for low-grade fevers. Anything less than 101.4 or 100.4, I definitely don’t worry about it at all. If it’s less than 100.4, it doesn’t even actually count as a fever. Anything between like100.4 and 104, that’s when I was starting to monitor things, but you don’t necessarily need to rush off. If there’s intense headaches, definitely see the doctor. If there’s difficulty like bending your neck, see the doctor.

If their throat looks odd, and its inflamed and got spots, and you got the strawberry tongue, and if you have sandpaper rash, see the doctor because those can be signs that it’s strep. They got that sudden behavior change, too.


[01:47:38]Ashley James: Awesome. If a child does have strep, is it the best route to do antibiotics in your opinion?


[01:47:45] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Yes. If you have active strep, I always tell my patients to do antibiotics even if we’re still using homeopathy. Homeopathy helps to stimulate the body to heal. It can be helpful in active strep infections, but one of the challenges is there are over 3,000 homeopathic remedies to select from, and you have to get the right fit. You may not get the right fit on the first try — even somebody pretty good with what they do.

I’m pretty darn good at what I do. About 80% of my patients get better, but they don’t all get better on the first remedy that I give them. About 20% don’t have a response to that first remedy, and so I have to try again. We can’t always know that the reactions are going to happen fast enough either.

Some kids, it’s within a few hours. Some people have a response like you did—within 10 minutes, you felt significantly better. Some people, it takes a couple of days to a couple of weeks even depending on how chronic is what’s going on and just the nature of the child.

Relying exclusively on homeopathy when you’re just getting started isn’t wise. When it comes to somebody who I have been working with for a while, and I know how they respond to antibiotics, and how they respond to homeopathy, we’ll make an individual decision for that child. But when I’m first getting started with somebody, if they’re not rocking it on homeopathic medicine and having significantly better immune responses, then yeah I want them on antibiotics.


[01:49:05] Ashley James: This has been such a wealth of information. Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing all these. To wrap up the interview, is there a message? Is there something that you like to say to those who suspect that their children have PANS or PANDAS or those that know that they do? Is there information you love to make sure parents know?


[01:49:31] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: You know the thing that seems to connect for most parents is that concept of susceptibility. We focus so much on what pills can I give my kid, what diet do I to need to take to battle this infection or to put the fire out of the inflammation, and yes, those things are important. It does play a role in long term success and health for all of us—to focus on not having an anti-inflammatory diet and appropriately fighting infections when we need to.

But we can’t focus just on those infections. It’s that susceptibility. It’s why your kiddo gets strep, the OCD and tics, and your kiddo’s best friend who gives them strep just get strep through and is back to school in four days after a course of antibiotics, while your kid won’t go to school anymore. Susceptibility is really where you have to have that focus to have that long-term healing that you want. Long-term healing is possible. I have kids who after working with homeopathy, and it does take time, but with working with homeopathy then they can get strep and the typical signs of strep and not the atypical signs. They don’t have behavioral flares.

I’ve had a lot of kids that they’re just doing so well with their chronic homeopathic remedy and their healing that they can be exposed to strep like their sibling can get strep throat, and they don’t even get sick. Healing is possible when you focus on susceptibility, and you treat the susceptibility using homeopathy and yes do the other things to make sure that you’re not just bailing out a boat that’s capsizing using a colander, like getting more water coming out as the water’s coming in.

So, yes, you have to focus on diet and lifestyle, but susceptibility is the thing that is the key. I’ve talked to parents about that, and it seems it finally clicked why they’re on this merry-go-round. I can’t tell you how many PANS and PANDAS parents have so many different rounds of antibiotics that their kids have gone through. Seven in one year. Fourteen in another year. They come in with buckets full of supplements; 38 different supplements is the max I’ve seen so far. They have to go and see a lot of different doctors because you’re chasing the symptoms and not addressing the susceptibility. Focusing on that susceptibility can help them get off that rollercoaster of emotions and moods, and off the merry-go-round of meds and supplements.


[01:52:05] Ashley James: How can they learn more about how to focus on the susceptibility? Is that by working with you, going to your Facebook group? You have a lot of free resources on your Facebook group.


[01:52:15] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Yes. I would recommend that people, first and foremost, go to the Facebook group. I have a free mini course that I put together explaining all about homeopathy, and PANS and PANDAS, so that people can start to learn this new type of medicine that’s unfamiliar to them and get a really strong grasp of that.

It’s a great community. Moms offer a lot of support. I interact with people to give them some guidance and direct them in the right direction. I can’t give any medical advice to someone who’s not a patient and definitely not in the format of a Facebook group, but that’s a place to really start to learn and get some good resources.

Yes, I’m a good resource for people who are looking for some help. I’m also really busy as most PANS and PANDAS doctors are. I’m in the process of getting some more doctors here and also doing some training for other doctors. I speak at conferences. But I’m putting together a training program for doctors as well. That’s coming second to that programs to help moms. It’s going to be a little bit of time because first and foremost I need to help the patients get some help right now.

But getting into that group will help you get to learn some resources so that we can get the help that you need so you can understand it; so you can make good decisions whether you are seeing me or somebody who’s working with me, or somebody completely who just happens to be available; so you can make educated decisions about who to see, when to see them, how to consult with them, etc.; and really understand what it is that you’re doing to get the most out of this really powerful medicine.


[01:53:43] Ashley James: I love it. Now your website is Of course, there are links to everything that Dr. Jennifer Bahr is going to be on the show notes of today’s podcast in, including the link to your Facebook group. You take on clients around the world, and you have your Facebook group. Is there anything else that we should know about your services or working with you?


[01:54:11] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: I would say that if you are interested in learning about the book and the programs with the mother that I’ve been working with and I have them completed to sign up for our email list. We’ll let people know there first. I’ll announce on the Facebook group to let people know that it’s available. So that’s another thing, a resource that’s coming. It’s not available yet, but you can be first notified if you sign up for our email list on the group.


[01:54:33] Ashley James: Awesome. Well, you’re welcome back on the show when your book is coming out. I’d love to help you promote it during its launch, and have you back and teach us some more great things and also help promote your book. That would be fantastic to have you back.


[01:54:54] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Awesome. I would love to come back.


[01:54:56] Ashley James: Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on the show, and I can’t wait to talk to you again soon.


[01:55:02] Dr. Jennifer Bahr: Sounds good.


[01:55:04] Ashley James: Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition and how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health, happiness, and longevity? Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business, support people in their success? Do you love helping people?

You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrated Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program. It blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over 100 dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition but from the standpoint of how we can help people to shift their life and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health.

I recommend you check them out. You can Google Institute for Integrated Nutrition or IIN, and give them a call, or you can go to, and you can receive a free module of their training. Do check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in.

Be sure to mention my name, Ashley James, and the Learn True Health podcast because I made a deal with them that they would give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It changed my life to be in their program, and I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information.

We need more health coaches. Health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctor’s offices. You can work in a hospital. You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help your local schools, shift their programs to help children be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success and their health goals.

There are so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach. So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrated Nutrition. Mention my name, get the best deal. Give them a call, and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you.

Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month, so you want to call them now and check it out. If you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding, and you get to help so many people.

Get Connected With Dr. Jennifer Bahr!

Facebook – Dr. Jennifer Bahr

PANS and PANDAS Homeopathy Facebook Group

Facebook – Resilience Naturopathic

Instagram – Dr. Jennifer Bahr

Resilience Naturopathic Website





Become A Health Coach-Learn More About The Institute for Integrative Nutrition's Health Coaching Certification Program by checking out these four resources:

1) Integrative Nutrition's Curriculum Guide:

2) The IIN Curriculum Syllabus:

3) Module One of the IIN curriculum:

4) Get three free chapters of Joshua Rosenthal's book:

Watch my little video on how to become a Certified Health Coach!


Learn How To Achieve Optimal Health From Naturopathic Doctors!

Get Learn True Health's Seven-Day Course For FREE! Visit


Do You Have Anxiety? End Anxiety Now! Learn Two Powerful Mind Tricks for Removing Anxiety, Ending Worry, & Controlling Fear So It Stops Controlling You! Attend my FREE Webinar that Will Teach You How! Click Here!

Need Help Ordering The Right Supplements For You?

Visit, and a FREE health coach will help you!

Do you have a blood sugar issue? I can help you achieve healthy, normal and balanced blood sugar naturally!

Visit for your free 30min coaching call with Ashley James!

Join Learn True Health's Facebook community group!
or search Learn True Health on Facebook!


If this episode made a difference in your life, please leave me a tip in the virtual tip jar by giving my podcast a great rating and review in iTunes!

Thank you!
Ashley James

Enjoyed this podcast episode? Visit my website Learn True Health with Ashley James so you can gain access to all of my episodes and more!

Follow the Learn True Health podcast on social media! Share with your friends and spread the word! Let's all get healthier & happier together!

Learn True Health - Facebook:
Learn True Health - Twitter:
Learn True Health - Medium:
Learn True Health - Pinterest:
Learn True Health - YouTube:


May 14, 2019

Info From Dr. Katie Tredo:

Here is a link to find a pelvic PT near you:
Contact info for my clinic for local patients: (262) 241-2131 11725 N Port Washington Rd, Mequon WI 
beautycounter website:

Instagram- @katie.tredo
Facebook- Katie Dickelman Tredo


Do You Pee When You Laugh?

We hear "pelvic rehabilitation," and we think "women giving birth." Hold that thought. Katie Tredo, a physical therapist specializing in pelvic health, explains how pelvic rehab can benefit men and women, adults and kids alike.


[00:00:03] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I'm your host, Ashley James. This is Episode 353.

Hello, true health seeker, and welcome to another exciting episode of Learn True Health podcast. I'm excited to bring you today's interview because the information is so life-changing for those who need it.

Even if you don't have pelvic floor issues, you'll want to listen to today's episode because she also teaches preventive measures to help us sustain a healthy pelvic floor. Every woman knows someone who has pelvic issues. This is a big deal, and a lot of people don't know that there is help.

Today you're going to learn about the natural and effective ways to create a healthy pelvic floor. For some people, it will be life-changing information, so I'm very excited to bring this to you today.

Please visit because in the show notes of today's podcast, there are some free resources that have been provided for us. Also, while you're at, I want to let you know about a few other resources I have created for you. We have a 7-day workshop that's delivered by naturopathic physicians to teach you the foundations of health. You should apply for that. It's free.

Just go to and put in your email, and every day you'll be given a video by one of the naturopaths that I've worked with. Also, on the website, in the menu bar in the upper right-hand corner, if you're on a desktop, or click on the little menu bar if you're on your phone, there's 'Ashley Recommends.' That takes you to a part of Amazon where I have picked out all the things that either past guests have talked about being helpful or I have in my home that is helpful for me--kitchen gadgets, and all kinds of wonderful health goodies, including my absolute favorite replacement for the microwave, if you are like me and you don't use the microwave because you know of the unhealthy effects that microwaves can create. If you've never heard of that and you're going, "Oh, my gosh, wait! I use the microwave every day. What’s going on? I put my plastic container in the microwave. What do you mean that that’s unsafe?”

Yes, absolutely. We've talked about it in past episodes. I wouldn't get into details here, but there's a replacement for the microwave that is safe and healthy. I have it in the kitchen section. Just go to and click on 'Ashley Recommends.' From there, you will see my absolute favorite health gadgets and wonderful goodies.

There are lots of resources on Learn True Health website, including most recently we’ve started to transcribe all of the interviews that we're posting. You can go to the most recent interviews at You can read what the guest has said, which is so helpful. The feedback listeners have given me is that they listen to episodes sometimes two or three times while taking notes because of how valuable the information is that's been delivered by the experts I have on the show. Now, it’s going to be a lot easier for you to be able to go through that information because we're transcribing the interviews!

Thank you so much for being a listener. I know you’re going to share this episode with those you love because, ladies, if we pee when we laugh, that means we have pelvic floor dysfunction. We can correct it. Men can have pelvic floor issues as well.

If we have a pelvic floor issue, we can have pain, incontinence, pain during intercourse. For children, they can have problems potty training or wetting the bed. This is not just a female issue, but it’s very common for women after giving birth to have a pelvic floor dysfunction. The most common thing we hear from women after we have had a few children is that we pee when we laugh. Guess what? There's a way to correct that. You're going to learn it right now.

We are in for such a treat today. We have with us Katie Tredo. She’s an amazing physical therapist who specializes in pelvic health.

Is it only for women--the pelvic rehabilitation?


[00:04:45] Katie Tredo: No. I treat men, women, and children.


[00:04:48] Ashley James: This is cool. I know before we record, we were talking about postpartum health. When I think of pelvic rehabilitation, I think of women after giving birth, and how messed up we are in that area. That's interesting that what you do can help everyone.


[00:05:09] Katie Tredo: I see a lot of women who have never given birth, too.


[00:05:12] Ashley James: Interesting. Just yesterday morning, I was with a girlfriend. I said something funny, and we both keeled over laughing. She said, “Stop it. You're going to make me pee.” Of course, I was already peeing. I didn't know that this was such a common problem that women can develop after having children. I was told that I should see a pelvic rehabilitation practitioner because there are exercises and things we can do to restore a pelvic floor, so we don’t have these accidents every time we sneeze, cough or laugh. That piqued my interest in hearing what you have to do, but you do so much more than that.

We’re going to get into your story, and what is pelvic rehabilitation, how do you know that you need a pelvic rehabilitation. But before we get into all that, I want to let listeners know that Katie is actively in our listener Facebook group, the Learn True Health Facebook group. She’s going to do a giveaway for the listeners.

After you hear this episode, please come into the Facebook group and join the giveaway. It's a little bit unrelated to pelvic health. However, it is linked to Katie's story.

She sells a healthy sunscreen. We're coming into summer here in the northern hemisphere. I keep seeing articles about how sunscreen enters the bloodstream. It’s scary that this toxic sunscreen sold in the stores have carcinogens, endocrine disruptors, and they enter our bloodstream. We think that they’re protecting us from skin cancer, but they end up damaging us in a different way.

Katie, can you talk a little bit about the natural sunscreen that you sell and that you’re going to be giving away to a listener in the Facebook group.


[00:07:23] Katie Tredo: Yes. I partnered with a company about a year and a half ago called, Beautycounter, that’s based on Santa Monica, California. Years back, my husband and I were dealing with unexplained infertility. At the time, we started researching what we are eating, what was in the products we were using, and I was blown away when I learned how many hormone disruptors are in our products that we were using.

At that time, I switched to things I thought were safer, but later learned, as I joined Beautycounter, about different things, that there’s a loophole in the United States, that a company can claim to be paraben-free or phthalate-free and have fragrance on their label. That allows them to put any number of chemicals without disclosing what they are. It kind of undoes the claim on their label. It’s something that exists in the US.

Of course, I’m so curious, going back and looking at what I’m using. Everything in my bathroom had fragrance in it, so that’s a little bit disheartening. I started using Beautycounter with my family and getting more passionate about educating people on what I have learned because, in the U.S., there are only 30 ingredients banned from our personal care products. FDA has virtually no control or regulation over the industry.

By joining Beautycounter, I’ve been able to educate people, as well as advocate at the government level for change in the regulation. It’s been so much fun. Like pelvic health, it’s kind of once you know it, you can’t unknow it.

One of my favorite products with Beautycounter is the Beautycounter Countersun Face Stick. It’s a safe mineral-based sunscreen that I love for both myself and my kids. One of your listeners will get that. It uses non-nano zinc oxide, so it doesn’t absorb through the bloodstream. It’s unlike those chemical sunscreens that are getting a lot of press right now for showing up in the bloodstream. This is not absorbed.

Besides our health, sunscreen also impacts our environment quite a bit. This year, Key West joined Hawaii in banning chemical sunscreen. They do not sell chemical sunscreens anymore because it was killing the coral reef in those areas.


[00:09:40] Ashley James: Yeah. I heard that. I heard somewhere in Australia that they also ban it because it was killing coral reefs.


[00:09:47] Katie Tredo: Yeah, that could be. I’m not sure.


[00:09:50] Ashley James: You mentioned 30 chemicals are banned from our products. Do you know how many are banned in Europe? I’ve heard the number is way higher.


[00:09:59] Katie Tredo: Canada has 600 ingredients banned. They’re slightly ahead of us. Beautycounter is in the United States and Canada. Some of our leaders in Canada were just up there lobbying for better regulation in Canada in Parliament this past week. I saw the pictures.

Europe bans over 1400 ingredients. There are 1400 things in Europe that have been found to cause adverse health reactions, and in the US, we only recognize 30 of these. We still have formaldehyde in our products.


[00:10:30] Ashley James: No. Not in the products that you sell, but in America.


[00:10:35] Katie Tredo: No, not in ours. Beautycounter goes above and beyond. It has over 1500 that they have found that can either absorb in the bloodstream or cause an adverse health effect. They go by the theory that something has to be proven innocent before it’s used in a product.

We don’t wait to find out bad research about the ingredients we’re using. We make sure they’re safe before putting them in. They partnered with Tufts Medical School this year to provide medical research on all the ingredients we’re using.


[00:11:08] Ashley James: Cool. Early this morning, I was at Home Depot. I was like, “I ran out of my all-natural household cleaner.” I’m looking through other cleaners. Can I find a safe one? Then there’s this one. It’s called “green" something--I don’t remember the name, but it has the word green in it, so you think, "This must be their biodegradable, non-toxic, all natural one."?

I flipped over the other side. It has that big warning: “In California, ingredients have been known to cause cancer.” I don’t trust this entire company because they call themselves green in the name. It’s frustrating that company’s try to be "green," and then they’re using things that are known carcinogens. They’re poisoning their customers because it probably profits them to do so.

So just a recap, in Europe, 1400 chemicals are banned from their products versus our 30.


[00:12:13] Katie Tredo: Correct. What’s even more alarming is the last time we had a major law passed on the personal care industry was in 1938.

There is one right now on the Senate floor, The Personal Care Product Safety Act. Beautycounter was largely involved in getting that introduced in the Senate, and now we’re asking people to support that. I like to talk about this because it makes people understand why there is a need for better regulation.


[00:12:49] Ashley James: It reminds me of the Wild West where I could start a company tomorrow that sold some face cream or some cosmetic. I can put almost whatever I want in there as long as it didn’t have those 30 chemicals that are banned here, but I can put whatever I want in it.


[00:13:10] Katie Tredo: You can take it to another level. The FDA can’t even inspect where you’re making this product. It never has to be tested for safety before it’s sold.


[00:13:22] Ashley James: Wow.


[00:13:23] Katie Tredo: Right? Alarming.


[00:13:24] Ashley James: It is alarming. Learning about our clothing, when we buy new clothing, you always try to buy organic cotton as much as possible. When we buy clothing, the clothing is infused with formaldehyde because otherwise the clothing, when it’s a textile before it’s made into a garment, it could get moldy. They spray it with all kinds of chemicals. People don’t know to wash their clothing after they buy it, and it’s in direct contact with our skin.

My husband got a pair of jeans once from a well-known jeans manufacturer. He just put them on right away. I always wash stuff, but he’s like, “Oh, whatever! I’m in a rush.” He got a full rash from his belt down to his ankles. Our naturopath said, "Absolutely, it’s the chemicals they’re putting in our clothing now. It’s just getting worse and worse."

We are the ones that advocate. This is me and my soapbox. The Learn True Health podcast helps us all to understand through wonderful guests like you that we need to be the experts in a sense that we need to do a little bit of research before we buy things.


[00:14:43] Katie Tredo: Right. Every dollar you spend is putting a vote towards what you believe in.


[00:14:48] Ashley James: Absolutely. I love that you advocate for a healthy sunscreen. We’re coming into summer. We all should have a healthy one. There’s nothing wrong with getting sun every day on bare skin. That’s great. But if you do buy sunscreen, buy a non-toxic one, obviously, one that doesn’t have the 1400 chemicals that are banned in Europe in our sunscreen.

All right. That has nothing to do directly with pelvic health, but it does have to do with health in general. It does have to do with your story. Let’s dive into your story, Katie. Please share with us, what had you want to become a doctor of physical therapy and specialize in pelvic health and pelvic rehabilitation?


[00:15:36] Katie Tredo: I can admit right now that when I was in PT school, I remember someone coming in. At the time I was in school, we didn’t talk about pelvic health that much, but someone introduced the topic to us. I remember specifically saying in my head, “Who would ever specialize in that?” Here I am. But it’s been a model for everything. Whenever I say I’m not into something, it happens.

I was one of those people who knew what they want to do from a very young age. When I was in eighth grade, I had met a family in my hometown that had a child with cerebral palsy, and I began babysitting. They were such an awesome family. I had an interest in working with children with special needs. They let me go to all the PT appointments. I traveled with them for a surgery their child had. It piqued my interest.

I know from that point on, I wanted to go into physical therapy. I was 100% certain that I would end up in Pediatrics. My first job was a cross between pediatrics and spinal cord injury. I was very fortunate in one of my internships to work with a physician that was working with Christopher Reeves in St. Louis at that time with spinal cord injury.

At the time, he had been asked by John Hopkins to come out to Kennedy Krieger Institute in Maryland and start this international spinal cord center. I happened to be graduating at that time. I was able to jump on and be part of that process, which was an amazing opportunity.


[00:17:12] Ashley James: That’s so cool.


[00:17:13] Katie Tredo: After about two years, I felt between pediatrics and spinal cord injury, that I was becoming so specialized in an area that if I have to leave Baltimore, which I plan to do someday, where would I ever find a job that would compare to this clinic? We had patients from all over the world flying in.

I met my husband. He had been doing travel physical therapy and was hoping to stop doing that, but I was very convincing. We left Baltimore and started traveling around the country doing different contract jobs. I got a taste of what working in different environments was like. Maybe 15 weeks, I did an outpatient orthopedic practice. Maybe another three months at a nursing home. Seeing the different areas that you could work in as a PT.

I found that I missed working with these major quality-of-life issues. The thing that drew me to pediatrics and spinal cord injury was that you weren't only treating someone for something like an ankle sprain or an injury that might impact their life, but also you were changing their world. You were helping them to change their world and providing this education to get them beyond that point in their life.

That’s what I’m passionate about within PT. It’s not that I don’t think these small injuries need rehabilitation. Of course, they do. I like working on these big issues.

We were living in Hawaii for a year. I don’t know what it was about pelvic health, but I kept reading more and more about it. I found a pelvic health practitioner in Hawaii. I met with her and made her gave me a list of what classes do I need to do; where do you think I should start; how do I do this.

My husband and I were getting ready to move back from Hawaii, and when I have something in my head, I have to do it right away. On our transition to moving to Boulder, Colorado, I had a four-day layover in Seattle and took my first pelvic health class. I then landed in Denver to interview for a job to start a pelvic health clinic, which was courageous at that time. I wanted to learn as much as I could, so the next several years, I spent flying around taking different seminars and courses, learning as much about the topic as I could.

The type of people that come in my clinic, I know you’ve said like postpartum is what you think of. That is definitely a part of my practice, but the kind of issues that I’m dealing with patients are a few have come in that have such severe pain that’s preventing them from having intercourse with their partner. They can’t tolerate sitting at a meal with their family, sitting at an airplane or a bus to travel. They can’t engage in social activities. Patients have leaked urine and feces, and it can be anywhere from laughing with a friend and having a little bit of leakage to people who feel so isolated that they are afraid to leave their house because they are embarrassed to leak.

And then I work with children. Some of these kids are kids that don’t go to sleepovers because they’re scared they’re going to have bedwetting. They’re nervous about playing sports or be involved in things at school because they’re scared they’re going to wet their pants, and they are beyond the age that that should be happening.


[00:20:50] Ashley James: Very interesting. So, it can be anyone. You are saying either it’s a pain or discomfort or that they’re having incontinence in some way. Are there any other symptoms?


[00:21:03] Katie Tredo: Yes. I treat people with prolapse. I treat a lot of men as well. My patients with pain can be both male and female. I do see a lot of men who have had prostate cancer and are having incontinence after surgery.


[00:21:21] Ashley James: Any other male issues, like erectile dysfunction, or any other issues that are common for men to see you?


[00:21:30] Katie Tredo: Sure. Usually, they present with either incontinence or pelvic pain. But along with the pain especially or with incontinence actually, they can have erectile dysfunction as an issue with that. I’m working closely with urologists, so sometimes they’re testing different medications, those kinds of things. But when there is a dysfunction in the pelvic floor, it can impact the blood flow to the area and those sorts of things, so a lot of times men report that their erections improve after doing pelvic floor therapy.


[00:22:03] Ashley James: What about women’s sexual issues? Do women find that they have an improvement in sensation with their partner?


[00:22:18] Katie Tredo: 100%.


[00:22:19] Ashley James: very interesting.


[00:22:21] Katie Tredo: I advocate taking a holistic approach with these things. I do work with a lot of patients with sexual dysfunction. While the physical part is part of my job, I like to be in a network of whether it’s a sex therapist or psychotherapist. They can also help these individuals or couples work through some of these issues from more the emotional aspect as well.


[00:22:46] Ashley James: Right. Because we beat ourselves up and we feel anxious about it. Maybe we’ve had trauma in our past. We often have emotional issues either around not being able to perform in that area or not feeling good about ourselves in that area. I can see that there are emotions that can come up.

But if someone doesn’t have any emotional issues and then they end up not realizing that there’s not optimal health in their pelvic floor that can lead to sexual dysfunctions, like incontinence and pain and these other things. You can develop emotional issues because you have something physical.


[00:23:39] Katie Tredo: 100%. I was looking up some stuff recently about incontinence in particular which surprise me because I thought I’d see more of these with pain which is very isolating and there’s a lot of psychosocial stuff that comes about after realizing that you’re in pain. But for bowel and bladder, which when you maybe leak a little when you laugh, you don’t think this could be that serious, but bowel and bladder incontinence are highly linked to suicidal tendencies.

In one study I read, 70% of people interviewed felt that experiencing incontinence would be worse than death. In the United States, it is one of the top reasons for nursing home admissions. Fecal incontinence is the second reason why a person would put an elderly family member in a nursing home.


[00:24:27] Ashley James: Wow! Our society is so different from other cultures. Some cultures would never dream of putting their parents in a home. They take care of them no matter what. But in our society, we want to be very clean and sanitized, kill 99.9% of bacteria with hand soap. We want to be clean. We want everything sterile.

Tell me about this pain that people experience. What is causing pelvic pain?


[00:25:07] Katie Tredo: Pelvic pain is a huge area. There are so many different causes and different pain conditions that it’s hard to see in the research what the true incidence of this is because there are so many different names. As a medical community, it hasn’t been standardized.

There can be very different reasons people have pain. There can be nerve pain in the area from the pudendal nerve. Sometimes a hormone disruption will cause pelvic pain or changes in the pelvic floor or the vestibule area, which is like the entrance to the vaginal canal. Another fairly common thing is vaginismus, which is a condition where the pelvic floor is spasmodic. It’s painful. It’s the contraction of the vagina in response to physical contact or pressure and often intercourse.

This is one condition I see a lot of. Often, patients if they have primary vaginismus, maybe as a teenager they tried to use a tampon, and it was very painful, so they just stopped doing it. They avoided medical exams there. Then they go on later, and they’re in a relationship. They have sex for the first time, and they feel like there’s a wall blocking them. Someone descri bed to me that it feels like knives are stabbing them. They think they’re broken. It can destroy relationships. This is truly a problem of the pelvic floor.

Through physical therapy, they can learn relaxation techniques and be educated on their pelvic floor. We do a lot of in-clinic techniques and a lot of education between sessions, the patient working either by themselves or with a partner to relax these muscles.

It’s a terrible condition to have, so I hate when someone walks in and have this. But it’s one of my favorite conditions to treat because someone comes in scared to tell anyone that they have this problem, and they haven’t admitted it to most people in their lives. They feel like their husband has married someone defective. I hear all these horrible self-deprecating stories.

You can sit down with someone and say, "I see people with these all the time, and there are things we can do to get you past this." One of my favorite success stories was a patient in Maryland. At that time, I had a cash-based practice. For her and her husband, their insurance didn't have good reimbursement, and it wasn’t feasible to come often. They were both dedicated. I would teach them ways they could work on this at home.

I’d see her kind of spaced out, and then she was getting a litter better–more and more spaced out. Then I stopped seeing her. You always wonder what happens to these people that you’re not seeing. I got an email months later from her, and she said, “Things have been crazy. I never got time to thank you, but I also wanted to let you know that because I was never able to have intercourse or even a pelvic exam, I never in my life thought about preventing pregnancy, and I want you to know that we’re happily expecting our daughter in September.”

It made my day, because here is a couple who had never been able to have intercourse, and they’re growing a family and having pain-free intercourse.


[00:28:38] Ashley James: Oh, my gosh! I love it. That’s amazing. One of my midwives or my doula told me, because I was doing Kegel exercise to correct the peeing after laughing from birth, and one of them said, “Wait, don’t do Kegels because sometimes the problem is having the wrong muscles too tight and other muscles too loose.” She’s trying to explain that pelvic floor health is so much more than doing Kegels. Can you talk a bit about that?


[00:29:16] Katie Tredo: Yes, 100%. I want to make a side comment too that I love these people you’re talking to because your friend that you’re talking to that recommended pelvic floor therapy and this doula you’re talking to, it’s not common. I can’t tell you how many times I’m in a conversation with women and they laugh that they are leaking urine. Their doctors have told them, “Oh, it’s just part of having kids.” I sound like a broken record in my clinic because I’m constantly telling people, “This is common, but not normal.” It is something you need to work on. It’s something that goes beyond just that little bit of leakage. It’s part of your anticipatory core muscles. It changes the way you move, being injury prone, and all that. I am very excited that you’re having these conversations.

As far as your question, that’s 100% accurate. That is probably the thing I get most--people calling, friends that live in different areas that can’t come in, asking me, "Should I do Kegels?" It is very hard to answer that question because if someone has pelvic floor weakness which is very common, especially after having a child, they can present with incontinence, prolapse, musculoskeletal dysfunctions, back pain. They indeed need to strengthen their pelvic floor, making sure they’re contracting the correct muscles is important, and making sure they’re able to relax their muscles.

I have, on the other side, patients that maybe are experiencing frequent urination and overactive bladder symptoms. They may think that they need to do Kegels as well, but they might have a hypertonic pelvic floor, so the muscles are incapable of relaxing. On those patients, the last thing I’d want to tell them to do is to go home and do 20 Kegels.

It depends on an exam. Whenever I see someone for the first time, I explain that it can be anywhere on that spectrum. Through examination, we can determine where’s a good place to start and an appropriate plan of care.


[00:31:29] Ashley James: How do you examine the pelvic floor? I’m imagining it’s like getting a pap smear. In my mind, how else would you examine the pelvic floor?


[00:31:40] Katie Tredo: It’s less scary than a pap smear, in my opinion. It’s an internal pelvic exam. There are no stirrups involved. You are lying with your knees bent on the table. I don’t use a speculum or a device like that. It’s using a lubricated, gloved finger palpating the muscle starting very external working through the three layers of pelvic floor muscles. I’m looking for things like tight trigger points or painful spots that may cause pain there or referred pain. Sometimes, they’ll tell me it gives them an urge to urinate, or I might find laxity in the pelvic floor.

Different muscles can be tight, and different ones that can be lax. Then I’ll have someone do a contraction and try to do a Kegel. I see all sorts of things from squeezing just their glutes to squeezing their inner thighs. Sometimes you see one half of the pelvic floor, the right side or the left side, contract better than the other side, and that could be a recruitment issue. Sometimes women tear their pelvic floor muscles, and it's left undiagnosed. A lot of times we picked up on that when we see you actually cannot elicit a contraction on those muscles.


[00:32:50] Ashley James: You’re saying 'see,' but what you mean is 'feel' because you’re not looking.


[00:32:54] Katie Tredo: We need to look at the skin quality and all that, but yes, 'feel.'


[00:32:59] Ashley James: That’s how you would do with an adult female. How would you do it for a male? How would you do it for children?


[00:33:09] Katie Tredo: Good question. For a male patient, I usually have them lying in the same position. I start with an external exam, starting right at the groin and sinking into the pelvic floor muscles. I always check externally with the female as well because you get different information.

For a male, you can feel if the muscles are tight and painful there. Are they lax? I’ll have someone contract and relax. Sometimes you can barely clearly feel, and sometimes you can. Depending on the case, we may do a rectal exam, having someone contract that way and relax and feeling. If a male is coming in with pelvic pain, a rectal exam is the best way to relieve these trigger points and teach them how to do self-trigger point release at home.


[00:33:59] Ashley James: Interesting. I went to massage therapy college in Canada, which is very different from the States. It’s like a 3,000-hour program. What I learned about trigger points is that--correct me if this is the same thing or something different--it’s a small taut band of muscles that usually where the point of innervation is by the nerve, and that it is cutting off circulation which is creating referred pain. Is that what you mean by trigger point?


[00:34:43] Katie Tredo: Yes, 100%.



[00:34:44] Ashley James: Okay. You can teach people to release their trigger points from the pelvic muscles at home.


[00:34:50] Katie Tredo: Yeah. We do a lot of that work in the clinic. I do use a technique called trigger point dry needling in some cases as well, but a lot of people can use devices called vaginal dilators, or there are devices specifically made for the rectum that can be inserted. They’re kind of curved plastic devices that can help you target these trigger points.

They have massage tools like that, too. You’re putting pressure on different points. I have people think of their pelvic floor as a clock, and they go around that clock, and find where are their trigger points, and do these trigger point releases on them.


[00:35:32] Ashley James: So interesting. In Canada, in some of our provinces, you can be licensed. We call them registered massage therapist, not licensed. But we can be registered or licensed to do a vaginal massage, and you have to go for more training for it, but there’s so much stigma around it. Yet getting that right before or during labor prevents tearing. What I was so amazed by is that while I was in labor, my OB did vaginal massage. She’s like, “Hey, I’m here. We’ve got time. Can I do it for you?” I am like, “Yes!” I was so excited.

It’s not like sitting down in the spa to get a massage, but I’m so excited that she had the extra training and that she was knowledgeable. Our OB happened to be on vacation when the baby finally came, so I got a different one, and I have not met her before, but she was perfect. She was perfect. She sat down and said, “Can I do vaginal massage on you?” It was awesome.

I think we have a lot of stigma in our society. We’re afraid still. In some ways, as women, we look at how we’re dressing and how we’re acting in society, and we’re not prude in some ways.

But then, in others, what is going on? We’re still stuck in 1930 when it comes to talking about our pelvic floor health. We’re so closeted. The idea of having a vaginal massage for health or vaginal PT for health--this is not sexual. This is health. It’s done by a practitioner who’s trained and safe. Releasing that stigma, I think, is important.


[00:37:50] Katie Tredo: 100%. It’s sad to me that this stigma exists within the female culture. Some of it is just historical. Pelvic floor PT is becoming more popular because women are finally talking about these things. You’ll see more things on the news. Cosmopolitan last year had a big article on childbirth injuries bringing awareness that this stuff happens.

This isn’t to throw any physician under the bus, but unfortunately, pelvic PT wasn’t taught, or a lot of doula stuff was never taught in medical school for a lot of the doctors practicing now.

For me, and later on I’ll talk a little bit about the postpartum culture in our society, but I was blown away because here I had been practicing pelvic health for years before I had my children. I moved to Wisconsin. I was pregnant with my twins when I was here. I was going from doctor’s office to doctor’s office introducing myself, marketing what I do and getting very discouraged when OBs weren’t sending their patients into me. I thought maybe they don’t have faith in what I’m doing or whatever.

Then I had my kids. I had a twin pregnancy and twin vaginal delivery. I also was heavily trying to market to my physician. I went to my postpartum eval showing ready to tell her, “I’ve done a self-exam. This is what I think is going on with myself. I don’t have a diastasis. I think I have this.” We never even got to that part in the conversation. I was blown away. I realized doctors are not recommending pelvic PT because they don’t believe in it.

They’re not even checking for the things that we see people for. Again that’s not their training, so I shifted in my focus with marketing to educating physicians and why they should consider sending patients to us saying, “Not only you have to examine them for this, but if a patient mention this, that’s a reason to send them to our office.”

They’re checking for things at the postpartum visits like, “Are you still bleeding? Do you have any signs of infection?” They’re looking for major medical things.

More often if you have incontinence, which by six weeks postpartum is not normal--that should resolve before four weeks postpartum-- they’re not necessarily checking if you have a prolapse or if you have a painful scar. I left feeling, “Wow! I’ve been practicing for years in this specialty, and I know what I have, and I know who to see for it. What if I didn’t know that and for years wondered what is going on with me?"

That’s what I see. Often, people that I’m treating for postpartum issues aren’t coming in six weeks or six months after having a baby, sometimes its years or decades after they’ve had a child.


[00:41:04] Ashley James: I have a friend who’s had five. She’s probably listening to this. Hello! Can a woman who has given birth to multiple children even years later go to a pelvic rehabilitation practitioner and see success?


[00:41:24] Katie Tredo: 100%. Sometimes I’ve had patients that have big problems for their first baby, no problems after their second or third. It varies, and there are always things you can work on. Something with moms, and I recently did an Instagram post about this, is our postures and our muscles change while we’re pregnant. Often, we have these compensatory movements or different movement strategies because our transabdominals are stretched out, our pelvic floor has gone through trauma, our diaphragm is not able to descend as it’s supposed to.

All of a sudden we’re not pregnant anymore, but our bodies are stuck in these positions, and we keep on reinforcing those movement patterns, and we never take the time to rehab those muscles that need to be part of the pelvic floor, diaphragm, and the transabdominals. These are anticipatory muscles that before we move, they fire.

They’ve shown these in healthy subjects that helps stabilize us, that helps keep us continent. It helps keep our breathing normal. A lot of time I do see people years later, and they can do great. I always advocate for earlier intervention, but I think it’s never too late. I’ve had people in their 80s and 90s even come in with incontinence that has gotten completely better.


[00:42:50] Ashley James: That’s exciting. To complete our conversation about the exams and sort of what to expect when someone comes in to see you or another pelvic rehabilitation practitioner. For children, how do you do that examination?


[00:43:10] Katie Tredo: With children, it is not invasive at all. Honestly, with children, education is the biggest thing. It’s a lot of education for their parents. A lot of these things someone could work on.

Anyone listening who has a child who's having problems with bed wetting or incontinence, start paying attention if your child is constipated. It makes everything, and when I say everything like my adults with constipation have worse bladder leakage. They have worse pelvic pain. All of these conditions are compounded with constipation.

The biggest piece of advice to parents is to make sure your child has a regular bowel movement, having enough water, having enough fiber, having enough physical activity. That’s the biggest things for parents.

A lot of these kids go to school, and they dehydrate themselves all day long. They never want to take a drink of water because they’re afraid that they are going to leak, or they’re so distracted and busy at school that they are not doing that.

One thing I see, a lot of teachers and a lot of students are not allowed to go to the bathroom at a lot of schools during their class which can cause some problems for kids that really need to go.

A lot of it are basic things as far as making sure your hydrated and not constipated. When children come in, I have some children’s books that have pictures of how the body works, and how food and urine go through your body.

We do things like toileting positions. The child can be fully clothed, but we’re working on, “Can you contract your muscles to stop pee?” Then things to get the pelvic floor to relax so that they can void or have a bowel movement. We’ll do a lot of things like blowing bubbles with it or learning these breathing patterns, doing it through play.


[00:45:05] Ashley James: I love it.


[00:45:07] Katie Tredo: Sometimes we’ll check the perineum and the skin because we do need to check that the child isn’t having this red, irritated-- physical therapists at most states now have direct access, and so if I see something that potentially could be an infection, I need to send them out to a physician who can treat that.

Then I’ll press along the groin, if I have the child’s and the parent’s permission, as the child contracts and relaxes, to see if any spots on their body are painful.


[00:45:41] Ashley James: That is very interesting. Do you have any advice? I know it’s hard because we don’t know what’s going on. You don’t tell everyone to Kegels because that could be the exact opposite of what they might need. So we can’t tell all children that are having incontinence, “Imagine you’re pulling everything up into you,” or try to give them some imagery because we don’t know if those are the right muscle groups for them to be exercising.


[00:46:18] Katie Tredo: We are very far from this in our culture. Nobody knows about the pelvic floor, that it exists until there’s a problem or until they’re having a baby. I think it would be great if we could teach children that there are muscles in their pelvis, and that if they have to go to the bathroom, and they have to hold it, to squeeze those muscles that are holding that urine and feel what that feels like, and then for these muscles also to be able to relax for them to be able to void or to have a bowel movement.

The good thing with the child knowing that they have muscles that control this is when there is a problem, they know it. I see a lot of adults who never know it was an issue or that it was something they could help.

When girls get to puberty too, they’re more prone to musculoskeletal injuries and different things just because of our development and hormonal factors and structural factors in our body, but we’re never taught that.


[00:47:22] Ashley James: Between the ages of 15 and 18, once every three months, I was twisting my ankle, falling down. I didn’t understand, and now I understand what was going on. My body was changing so fast that I didn’t know where the center of my gravity was. I just thought I was a klutz. Thinking back, I haven’t tripped or had any of those problems in years and years. It was only because our body is changing so much during our teenage years that we can be prone to accidents because everything is changing, and we don’t know where we are in gravity.


[00:48:05] Katie Tredo: This happens again in menopause actually, so be prepared. I think what happens is there are often changes on the pelvic floor whether because of hormonal changes and things. Sometimes people can develop secondary va ginismus, like that pain I’ve described before, but its due maybe to hormonal changes or menopause, or they can develop incontinence as part of that as well that they get vaginal atrophy.

At the same time, you see people losing their balance and having morefalls. One thing that I try to talk to other PTs about that treat orthopedics and want nothing to do with the pelvic floor is that those are not separate issues.

Back pain—it’s not a separate issue. If there’s a problem with the pelvic floor muscles, you’re going to present with another problem. So I encourage PTs on their screening form and probably any practitioner to have, “Do you leak urine?”—just a very simple question.

If someone’s coming back and they’ve had back pain over and over, or hip pain, neck pain, jaw pain, and you’re not getting anywhere with the techniques you know, and you noticed that they have written that they’re also leaking urine. There is a problem in those anticipatory muscles, and their core is not intact. That needs to be treated as part of the problem.


[00:49:32] Ashley James: In someone who’s walking, can you see in their gait that they have issues on their pelvic floor? Does it affect the body so overtly?


[00:49:40] Katie Tredo: That’s an interesting question. You can definitely in their posture. People move differently when they have a problem with their pelvic floor. You can sometimes tell from how someone is standing. I always look at posture when I’m looking at a patient because oftentimes someone stands in that posture, a pelvic tilt, with their tail bone kind of tucked under.

If anyone listening right now goes into that position and they try to contract their pelvic floor, what you’ll feel is maybe a little bit of a contraction on the anus, but a lot of gluteal muscles contracting.

If you come to a better seated or standing posture with more of a neutral spine, restoring that lumbar curve, you try to contract, and you can feel that that contraction moves anteriorly. You’re getting your pelvic floor muscles. Often, positionally, even with gait or just static standing or sitting, we can change the body’s ability to recruit these muscles.


[00:50:36] Ashley James: That’s so cool. I had a question pop on my mind. I’m not quite sure how to form it. More people than we are aware of have suffered from sexual assault. It’s one of those topics that is still not completely open. Unfortunately, the victims are left to feel that it’s their fault, and they’re ashamed of it. Some victims even have it in childhood.

Have you ever had patients who’ve come to you with pelvic issues, and in the discovery, you found out that they were sexually assaulted? Does the sexual assault injure the pelvic floor, or the emotions around it cause them to use their muscles in a different way, so it creates an injury?


[00:51:43] Katie Tredo: Yes, 100%. Traumatic events like that can cause people to develop these holding patterns, that clenching on the pelvic floor. People clench their jaws or those upper trapezius muscles. Trigger points on the pelvic floor are no different. Often, if someone has been sexually assaulted, they have been holding that pelvic floor tight and trying to protect themselves. They do develop pain. They also have a lot of psychological damage done from that. I have seen this in my clinic probably more often than you know. I’m glad they come in, but it’s sad.

What I do with these patients is I always tell them that you do not have to do internal work if you’re not comfortable with it. I say that to anyone whether they are traumatized or not. I explained that for me to get the most information from this exam, an internal exam is what is best, but if someone is not comfortable, that’s not best for them then.

A lot of these patients, I explain to them, “Let’s start with working on diaphragmatic breathing because you probably had never breath into your belly ever” or “Let’s work on some of the stretches.” Happy baby pose in yoga is one of my favorite for opening the pelvic floor. Sometimes having their feelings validated, someone willing to work at their comfort level. I make sure that they have seen a psychologist or know of one or get a referral for one. I explain to them that that is not my specialty. I am there to walk them through this and to work with them, but it will be beneficial for them also to see someone.

These patients do great because you can give them the tool they need. If it’s something like, “You need to work on this on your own at home,” if that’s what they’re most comfortable, sure they come back less frequently, you progress their exercise program, and you answer their questions. Often these patients end up becoming more comfortable in allowing an internal exam and internal work.

What I work out in those exams, we don’t do it for very long. It will be a very limited treatment there. I make sure the patient stays present with me. One thing I’ve noticed in my patients, and I’ve one that’s particular in my mind, always I see her eyes go up, and it was like she wasn’t paying attention anymore. I could tell when she’s dissociating from what is happening in her body.

It had been a technique that she had learned because she had to. She had been abused for so long. I try to keep people present with me. “Is this painful if I move your leg this way or if you contract or relax?” or “If we add pressure here, does that decrease the pain?” I keep this conversation going up. “What makes the pain better?” “What makes it worse?” “Let’s find a technique together and try to breathe into that spot.”

Sometimes you can only do that for a couple of minutes before the person is gone, but they continue to improve in that. I think getting back in their bodies and working with the psychologist on that is important as well. That can be beneficial for them because they’ve spent so long just tightening up and blocking people and blocking themselves from feeling anything.


[00:54:59] Ashley James: Have any of those patients shared with you that they were surprised that the pelvic physical therapy was cathartic, was a healing process for them emotionally?


[00:55:13] Katie Tredo: Yes. I have had several patients that I don’t even think they were even sad. It’s just like these tears would just come out. More so like, “I can’t believe I don’t have pain right there.” Do you what I mean as they were getting better and doing that?

I’ve had experience in a patient who didn’t know that she had been sexually traumatized until very recently. She had been by a priest. She blocked that out of her head, and she thought because it wasn’t sex, that she hadn’t been molested. When recent news had come out, and people were talking about it, “All of a sudden, she had this breakdown because she had been molested in her childhood, but had made excuses for it and blocked it out of her head.

She happened to be seeing me at that time. We took a break from physical therapy completely for her to do more talk therapy, working with her body, and ways with a psychotherapist. Then, she came back and did fantastically, but she was coming in for bowel and bladder symptoms, and it wasn’t what she was expecting was related to it.


[00:56:26] Ashley James: So were the problems because she was holding herself tight for so long?


[00:56:30] Katie Tredo: I think so. I think that played into it. She has also had a couple of children at the time. I think for her, it was a lot of urinary frequency and difficulty fully emptying her bladder — a lot of things that go along with having a tight pelvic floor.


[00:56:46] Ashley James: You see these commercials, like the Depends, the adult diaper commercials. They make it sound like this is something to expect, especially for women when they’re in their golden years.

You’ve said that you’ve had even women in their 80s come in, but the marketing is making it sound like when women are older, they’re supposed to pee themselves.

What you are saying is that it's common, but it’s not normal or healthy. If 50% of the people walk with a limp, we would say it’s common, but that doesn’t mean it’s normal. It’s not supposed to be that way. It’s like people are walking around with an injury, and we’re being told by all the marketing that this is normal. It’s just part of aging, or it's just part of having kids, or it’s just part of life. But it’s an injury, an imbalance we’re walking around with. It is not optimal health.


[00:57:52] Katie Tredo: Yes. We see this in every industry, but people are making billions of dollars off of these, so why would they want you to know that you could get better? But 100%, it is common, but not normal. We kind of put in our heads, it’s either after a baby or as we’re getting older, and that’s when it’s normal to experience this. It’s not normal in either of those cases.


[00:58:19] Ashley James: I haven’t yet gone to a pelvic rehabilitation practitioner. As I’m thinking about it, I’ve been putting it off, because it’s not that big of a deal. “So what? I pee a little when I laugh — no big deal. I’m busy. I’m a mom. I’m an entrepreneur. I’m putting my business and everything else.”

I’m just seeing this. I’m looking at my thinking. I’m thinking like how many women do this? We’re putting everyone else first, and we’re putting our health on the back burner. I keep saying myself, “I’m going to one eventually. In the future, when I have some free time, I’ll make time for my health.” How many of us do that? Now that my listeners know about pelvic rehabilitation, don’t be like me and put it off for years.

What you are saying is that the incontinence is a symptom and that the problem can be far greater, even though that’s the only thing you’re seeing. Maybe you’re not having discomfort or pain, but maybe you’re just seeing that you pee a little when you laugh, but that is actually causing more damage. Can you talk more about that? What’s the damage of continuing life with this imbalance?


[00:59:39] Katie Tredo: It can vary. Obviously, incontinence can become worse. I like to describe the course as a soda can. If you imagine you’ve had the respiratory diaphragm on top, the pelvic floor on the bottom, and the transverse abdominals coming around, and the multifidus on the back—those four muscles make up your canister, your core. These muscles should contract first, and they should stabilize and allow you to move from there to prevent injury anywhere in your body. They keep us continent. They keep us breathing well.

Like a soda can, if you imagine, pop open that can—whether its diastasis recti and you have lost your abdominal tone, you have this bulging herniation at your abdominals or pelvic floor weakness—how easy is that can to crash? You have no stability there anymore. It’s a balance of pressures on our body that’s there.

There was an article in the Medical Research, and I’m just going to read the title of it because it’s my best article to bring to a physician’s office and say, “Look at this. It changes what you think.” They found that disorders of breathing and continence, the diaphragm and the pelvic floor, have a stronger association with back pain than obesity and physical activity.

So what do we tell people when they have pain in their body? “You need to lose weight. You need to exercise.” But these disorders of the diaphragm and the pelvic floor are more associated with back pain than any of those things which are important as well. So it’s a huge problem.

One other thing, as far as how you said you don’t get help for it and how our culture feeds into this, it’s a little off that path, but I think with postpartum women, we are constantly marketed to how fast you can lose your baby weight and how great you can look right after you have a baby. If you’re on Facebook or Instagram or any of those, how many times a day are you marketed, “Join me and lose all this weight.” They’re these hard exercises that people are doing, and a lot of these women have never rehab their pelvic floor or their transverse abdominals.

I’m someone that believes that people can get back to everything after having a baby. I think after most of these that if you rehab correctly and you improve your movement patterns, the goal is to get back to all these. I would never want to tell one of my patients that they have to stop running or they have to stop doing anything.

When I was working in Maryland, I was asked to talk at a CrossFit gym, and I was a little taken back because at first, I didn’t know how this would go. I would see some of these women in these CrossFit gyms doing exercises that I knew they probably shouldn’t be doing.

One thing I was asked in Maryland was from an owner of a CrossFit gym to come in and talked about peeing while you exercise. I don’t know how to approach it exactly because I knew a lot of these women were peeing while they’re exercising because they have never rehab themselves properly to be able to do the type of activities they were doing.

I said, “That’s not normal. I’d love to talk about it.” She said, “Really, it’s not normal? You’ve got to see this YouTube videos,” and she sent them to me.

It was these interviews of someone at these CrossFit competitions going up to people and going, “Do you have the workout pees?” or “Do you pee while you exercise?” All these women like, “Yeah, I lift all these weights. I do all these hard exercises. I pee in my pants. I’m wearing a diaper right now.” I’m thinking, “What are we promoting in our culture that makes this seem like it’s a good thing or normal?”

It took a lot to get these women to step back. I said, “This isn’t that you’re never going to do these exercises, but you need to step back and learn how to move better before you can get back into these exercises.” There were people that came up to me and said, “I’m not going to see you if you tell me I have to take a break from this.” Of course, they never came to see me.

I do challenge people to think about it. We think about the pelvic floor so different than other parts of our bodies. If you strained your hamstring and you were playing a sport, you would rest. You’d work n stretches and strengthening. You’d ice. You’d do all of these things to rehab. You’d gradually get back into your exercise or your sport as you could tolerate because your hamstring was your weakest link. You wouldn’t push past and further injure yourself.

If we think of the pelvic floor as the weakest link in these situations, exercise to your weakest link. Maybe you can do a certain amount of reps or a certain amount of weight and stay continent, and you gradually increase that. But the second you train your body, “I’m going to keep jumping 800 times in a row,” or “I need to lift these weight that’s so heavy, and I completely lose bladder control,” you’re not training your body to move better.

They do want to help people. We have to look at the system. It was 1910, around there, the Flexner Report was created.

People can go on Wiki and see this but Carnegie—maybe he was the richest, I don’t know—who was one of the richest people in the United States at the time owned a pharmaceutical company. He wanted to influence the marketplace. He had a man go throughout the United States and create the Flexner report, which is, at that time, a list of all the doctors who are practicing allopathic medicine, which is a pharmaceutical-based medicine. At that time in history, we have to imagine what we know is not what the world was like back then.

Back then, you could see a chiropractor, osteopath, you could go to an herbalist or a homeopathy practitioner, and everything was an even playing field. You could become any of these different types of therapists. You could become a student of them at any of these universities or these colleges. Everything was an even playing field.

Then Carnegie invested millions of dollars. He put colleges out of business. He told the colleges and universities that he gave his money to that they had to stop teaching anything that had to do with types of therapy that competed against pharmaceutical medicine. He was able to change, and he created what we know now.

Everyone goes to an M.D., and everyone is put on a drug. Seventy percent of adults in America are on at least one prescription medication. We grow up in a system, and we didn’t realize that we think it’s normal. You go to an M.D.; you get a drug.

But back in 1910, right around then, it’s when Carnegie was influencing all the schools. The schools were influenced to teach a certain curriculum that he agreed to, which would then teach doctors to push the drugs and not natural therapies. So, if you have a bunch of people who are peeing themselves when they get older, then you can sell them a drug that might prevent peeing or sell them diapers or whatever.


[01:04:47] Ashley James: Interesting. I’ve worked with trainers before, and they always start with the core. Before we do anything, we’re going to strengthen your core because there is no point in having you do deadlifts or whatever when you have a weak core.

Everyone thinks when you say core muscles—what are your core muscles? My abs and my back. Everyone thinks abs. Let’s work on your core—your abs and your back or maybe your butt. But no one thinks about the pelvic floor as being part of their core.

That’s interesting because when it was described to me by Jennifer Saltzman who’s been on the show before. She’s a 20+ years’ Pilates instructor. She says that the pelvic floor, imagine it’s a big salad bowl that’s sitting in your pelvis holding everything up. It’s holding your bladder and your bowels. It’s holding your uterus for women. It’s holding everything up, and it’s a big salad bowl.

She helps people to understand that they’re walking around with their salad bowl spilling out because their salad bowl is tipped forward or tipped to the side. Looking at and respecting the pelvic muscles are just as important as a part of our core. It’s there a bit subtler. You’re not going to do crunches.


[01:06:19] Katie Tredo: Right. The thing that people don’t realize is that the rectus abdominals are not part of our core. They’re very external muscles, and yet everyone wants them because it can do a six pack, but that’s not part of our core. If you just work on your rectus abdominals, you’re not strengthening your core.


[01:06:36] Ashley James: Your core is needed for stability, and so you’re saying that those with weak core end up injuring themselves more. As they get older though, they’re more prone to falling and injuring themselves.


[01:06:49] Katie Tredo: It can go the opposite way, too. We talked about fixation or immobility. We need our pelvic floors to be mobile and stable. It is this constant kind of balance because we need our muscles to be very mobile. We need them to expand to have babies and to have bowel movements, urination, and all of that. We need its stability to move and do all those things.

We end up at one side of the spectrum or the other, whether it is a very weak, stretched pelvic floor or if it’s a very hypertonic and painful pelvic floor. We’re going to have problems involved in those situations.


[01:07:31] Ashley James: Is this kind of physical therapy fairly new, or can you see when looking back in history that there are types of therapy, or there are cultures that focus on pelvic floor health throughout time?


[01:07:52] Katie Tredo: I don’t know when pelvic floor therapy started in the U.S. I know I’ve been doing it for ten years, and there have been therapists doing it way longer than that here.

There are definitely techniques taken from other cultures that we’ve learned about. I think some midwives in other cultures have been doing some rehab for the pelvic floor.

This isn’t really to speak to the historical aspect of it, but one thing I’m blown away by is I used to work outside of Washington D.C., and I had the luxury of working with people from all over the world because their jobs took them there or their partner’s jobs or whatever. It was eye-opening to me because I had a lot of patients from places like France and Germany that would come right after their postpartum check-up.

I’d say, “What brings you in today? What’s the problem?” They say, “You tell me. I’m here for my postpartum check-up.” It was refreshing. Some of these patients needed ongoing PT for a little while. Some of them, I gave them tips. We worked on their posture, made sure things were moving well, and I said, “Call me if you’re having any of these problems in eight weeks or whatever.” It was ingrained to them that having a baby is a physical event, and you need rehabilitation after. You’re going to go because why wouldn’t you take care of yourself after an event like that.

It’s just not the way it works in the U.S. We don’t support preventative medicine. We don’t necessarily take care of our moms after they have a child. We’re looking at getting people back into the workforce as soon as possible, losing your baby weight as soon as possible.

I think that’s damaging to women. I think more and more people are talking about it now, and there’s a huge demand for this type of therapy.

I encourage any physical therapist who is at all interested in working on this to take some training, even a course or two under your belt. It’s enough to help the most basic things and know enough to refer someone to someone more specialized later because there are just so many people not getting help.


[01:10:04] Ashley James: Absolutely. I’ve talked about this before on the show with other practitioners. Looking at the history of modern medicine—I wouldn’t get into it too deep, but it’s a very interesting topic to dive into to understand what’s influencing our modern-day practitioners.

We go to an M.D. or your OB, and we’re expecting them to know about other resources. If we tell them we’re peeing when we laugh, they should know to tell us to go for pelvic rehabilitation.

I’m not vilifying M.D.’s or any doctor. I think there are individuals who get into medicine because they do want to help people. We have to look at the system. It was 1910, around there, the Flexner Report was created.

People can go on Wiki and see this but Carnegie—maybe he was the richest, I don’t know—who was one of the richest people in the United States at the time owned a pharmaceutical company. He wanted to influence the marketplace. He had a man go throughout the United States and create the Flexner report, which is, at that time, a list of all the doctors who are practicing allopathic medicine, which is a pharmaceutical-based medicine. At that time in history, we have to imagine what we know is not what the world was like back then.

Back then, you could see a chiropractor, osteopath, you could go to an herbalist or a homeopathy practitioner, and everything was an even playing field. You could become any of these different types of therapists. You could become a student of them at any of these universities or these colleges. Everything was an even playing field.

Then Carnegie invested millions of dollars. He put colleges out of business. He told the colleges and universities that he gave his money to that they had to stop teaching anything that had to do with types of therapy that competed against pharmaceutical medicine. He was able to change, and he created what we know now.

Everyone goes to an M.D., and everyone is put on a drug. Seventy percent of adults in America are on at least one prescription medication. We grow up in a system, and we didn’t realize that we think it’s normal. You go to an M.D.; you get a drug.

But back in 1910, right around then, it’s when Carnegie was influencing all the schools. The schools were influenced to teach a certain curriculum that he agreed to, which would then teach doctors to push the drugs and not natural therapies. So, if you have a bunch of people who are peeing themselves when they get older, then you can sell them a drug that might prevent peeing or sell them diapers or whatever.


[01:13:32] Katie Tredo: Or surgery,


[01:13:35] Ashley James: Thank you. I’m getting to that. Surgery is another thing that they can sell you. Again, I’m not vilifying any individual doctor. Maybe listeners have gone to their doctor and told them that they pee themselves. The doctor said, “We have a drug or have diapers,” or “This is just normal,” or “Here’s a surgery.”

This is what medical schools teach because it would harm profits. Think about it--if doctors learned how to cure people, so they no longer needed drugs or surgery, then it would put industries out of business. The whole system is set up in a way to keep people stuck.

I think there are a lot of good people in the system. I think a lot of people are breaking out. I’ve interviewed a lot of M.D.’s that have broken out of the system and gone, “Wait a second. There’s way more than just drugs and surgery. What am I doing?”

At the same time, I love that drugs and surgeries are available should I need them. We want it, but it’s only one tool. It’s not “the” only tool. It’s one tool in our tool belt, and there are a hundred other tools, like what you do, which is get to the root cause and help people heal at the root level.

I want all the doctors listening, and all the patients listening. Let’s educate our doctors and let them know that there is a better way; that we don’t have to get on a drug or get surgery for peeing ourselves. If we have pelvic pain, there’s a viable therapy that gets to the root cause.


[01:15:13] Katie Tredo: I have had experience of working with absolutely fantastic doctors and learning from them too, and being able to observe some of their surgeries, and coming in for their exams, and having these discussions. I think more and more doctors are learning about this. To their credit, as you said, they did not learn about a lot of these in medical school.

My entire practice up until this past August was in private practice. For the first time, I’m working as a pelvic floor therapist in a hospital system. It has been wonderful to work with physicians, to start programs, and talk to doctors about how we may able to help each other.

One thing with surgery, for a long time with prolapse, for patients that was their option. That’s it—do a surgery. Depending on the doctor you go to, a lot more are saying, “Try physical therapy first.” A couple of my favorite surgeons in this area are huge supporters of pelvic floor therapists. It makes sense because if you only do surgery in the people that need that surgery, you’ll going to have better outcomes yourself as well.

One thing I’m working on educating both patients and physicians right now is the idea of pre-op surgery. Prolapse, for instance, I’m not going to say that everyone that walks in my door, I cure their prolapse. I don’t even take credit like that. I teach them to do things. I have some patients whose symptoms are 100% resolved, and they never need to have surgery. I have some patients who are borderline—"We’ll see how you do in therapy.”

I’ve had patients coming off the street into my clinic. I have them bear down, and their bladder is physically coming out of their vagina. I say, “I have a name of a great surgeon I’m going to send you to, and I think you should strengthen your pelvic floor as part of your rehab.”

It’s knowing each other’s specialties, who you can help and who you can’t help. I tried to educate my patients that if you go to somebody—my favorite thing is when a doctor says, “I don’t know. Let me find someone that does,” or “I don’t know. Let me look that up.”

Whether you’re going to a PT or a chiropractor or a doctor, if they think they know everything, that’s frightening to me. I’d much rather have a doctor say, “You know what, that’s not my specialty. Let me give you the name of somebody who it is.” I would much rather hear that.
Unfortunately, a lot of doctors still when they don’t know something, they dismiss the patient’s complaint. One thing that breaks my heart that I hear over and over still is a patient will go into her OB or her primary care doctor and say, “I’m having painful intercourse.”

When you say that, you’ve become vulnerable. You’re opening up to a very private part of your life. I can’t tell you how many times a patient comes in my door, either recently or years earlier their doctor’s advice to them was, “You just need to have a glass of wine and relax before you have sex with your husband.” It’s 2019. If someone’s willing to open up with that, find someone that can help them. Even if you think it is in their head, send them to a psychologist. But there are physical reasons for this pain.

I’m never under the belief that everyone will get better with what I do. I do need to refer out to other practitioners a lot. I think that working together is something that our medical field needs to do more of.


[01:18:57] Ashley James: As a patient, we should have the idea in mind that we are creating a team of holistic experts or a team of experts to surround us -- hopefully, a lot of them holistic, but a team of experts. We want them to talk to each other. We want this team to inform us and help us to make the best choices, and we ultimately are the final deciders in the therapies that we’re going to participate in.

A doctor is not to put up in a pedestal. If your doctor has hubris or an ego, then fire him and get one that can step down from their ego and say, “You know what, I don’t know the answer. Let’s get the information. Let’s go find out.”


[01:19:42] Katie Tredo: Right. There is a lot of dangerous stuff by Googling stuff. One positive thing is if you can’t find the doctors, then get a physical therapy evaluation. A lot of times, most states don’t require a physician’s referral. If your particular insurance does, call your primary care doctor, any doctor you know, any nurse practitioner, and have them write a script for physical therapy. It’s rare that someone would say no. When you go to that specialist, whether it’s a pelvic PT or whoever you’re working with, and you have a problem, they probably have a physician to recommend for you because there are a lot of fantastic doctors out there.


[01:20:19] Ashley James: Absolutely. You’re just reminding me of Kristen Bowen. I don’t know if you’ve listened to her episodes. She’s the magnesium soak lady.


[01:20:27] Katie Tredo: Yeah, I’ve heard a little bit of it.


[01:20:32] Ashley James: She told her sisters—she had given birth to, I think, three children at that point—she started peeing after laughing, that kind of thing. Her sister went, “It’s time for you to go get the surgery.” She went to the doctor, and the doctor was like, “No problem. Let’s do the surgery.” They took a tissue from a cadaver, made a little hammock, put her bladder in it, and then use titanium screws to screw that little dead tissue hammock to the bones on her pelvis.

When she woke, she started having 30 seizures a day for two or three years, and she got down to 70 pounds. Then they finally convince the doctor/surgeon to take it out, to remove it. Most of her seizure went away. She got down to three seizures a day. She thinks she had an autoimmune response to the titanium, and also the tissue that was used. It turns out that they think that it was black market tissue because it was not tattooed with the code on it which it was supposed to.

She was not given any choices. She wasn’t told, “Let’s get examined by a physical therapist that specializes in pelvic rehabilitation,” or “Let’s give it a few months of exercises and see if that improves.” It was just immediate, “Oh yeah, you’re peeing when you laugh. It’s time to get the surgery.”

I understand that prolapse, if the bladder is coming through the vagina, then maybe it’s so far gone that PT wouldn’t help that person get back to where they need to be, but that they can use the physical therapy as rehabilitation.

Surgery should always be, unless its life-threatening surgery, should always be a choice you make after we’ve tried other options, like try a few months of physical therapy. It should be mandatory—if it’s a surgery that isn’t life-threatening, it should be mandatory that we at least try a few months of physical therapy first to see if we could make headway or see if we could prevent the surgeries because surgery is dangerous and life-altering, life-changing.


[01:23:10] Katie Tredo: That whole idea of having physical therapy first—I try to tell my patients, and that’s something I’m working on that I didn’t get to do much. When you tell someone that this might be able to prevent you from having surgery, I always tell my patients worst case scenario, you still need the surgery, but you’re rehabbing your pelvic floor, and you’re learning new movement patterns. You are learning how to properly void and not strain when you have a bowel movement.

All of these things you’re doing are going to optimize the results of your surgery. You’re changing the things that are contributing to you prolapse in the first place, so when you have that surgery, you’re not going to need it redone right after because you’re going to know how to move.

It just gets me when I get someone that’s post-surgical, and they have been straining their entire life. How did someone have surgery for prolapse and had not been taught how to toilet without straining? That’s just contributing to the issues.

I feel like pre-operative physical therapy cannot only do that but in men with prostate surgery, if these men came in for one visit pre-operatively, I think we could cut back the number of PT sessions they have after. By the time they come to me, they’ve developed very poor bladder habits.

It’s things a lot of people do anyway, but if they know not to do these things, and they know how to do a proper Kegel, when that catheter is pulled, they can start strengthening right away. They would be less frustrated, more educated, and prevent the secondary problems that they can cause with their habits.


[01:24:50] Ashley James: What about hernias? Can pelvic rehabilitation help with preventing or healing hernias?


[01:25:02] Katie Tredo: I treat a lot of patients for diastasis recti. If someone has a true hernia or umbilical hernia, they’re also seeing a surgeon depending on how severe it is. I’m not sure the answer to that question actually.


[01:25:19] Ashley James: For those who don’t know and I know because I have it, can you explain what diastasis recti is?


[01:25:27] Katie Tredo: Diastasis recti is a split in the rectus abdominal muscles. Sometimes during pregnancy or men with beer bellies or women with beer bellies, it’s not just pregnancy that can cause tearing in the linea alba or that white fascia when you see a picture of the muscular system between the abdominal muscles. When that splits, you see a bulge there, or you can usually sink a few fingers in between. That’s how it's measured actually, so it can disrupt how you’re moving and how load transfers through your body.


[01:26:04] Ashley James: You can help people to heal it?


[01:26:07] Katie Tredo: Yeah.


[01:26:08] Ashley James: Very cool. How about inguinal hernias?


[01:26:11] Katie Tredo: The patients I see with hernias, either had a hernia repair, or they were sent to me with a questionable hernia. By working on the pelvic floor and the core, their symptoms went away. I’m not sure that they ever had a hernia.


[01:26:26] Ashley James: Thank you. That’s what I was getting at.


[01:26:28] Katie Tredo: I think it’s more of a misdiagnosis.


[01:26:30] Ashley James: Yes, I was misdiagnosed with a hernia, and it was diastasis. How do you say it?


[01:26:38] Katie Tredo: Diastasis recti.


[01:26:40] Ashley James: Thank you. Diastasis recti which is common for people to have or having some symptoms in their pelvic floor because it’s out of balance and its appearing like it’s a hernia. You do the work, and then the symptoms go away. So, we don’t need to know if it was a hernia or not because you’ve strengthened whatever was weak.


[01:26:58] Katie Tredo: Right.


[01:26:58] Ashley James: Very cool. This has been wonderful. I like it when practitioners share tips or exercises, but I’m getting the feeling that it’s personalized. You can’t tell us all to do Kegels because that could be making it worse for some people, but making it better for others. Is there any kind of advice, very general, applying to 100% of the population—exercises or advice that you can give us?


[01:27:25] Katie Tredo: First thing I keep talking about how with constipation that people strain and can’t have a bowel movement, so if anyone listening is sitting, I’m a huge fan of those squatty potties. Have you seen those?


[01:27:44] Ashley James: Yes. Every toilet in my house has a squatty potty.


[01:27:46] Katie Tredo: Same with mine. That’s great. You want your knees above your hips. You want your pelvic floor to be able to relax.

If everyone listening tries to do a Valsalva or pushing or bearing down motion, try doing that, and you’re probably holding your breath. As you do that, you’re holding your breath, what is your pelvic floor doing? When you’re doing that, you should feel like the pelvic floor is contracting and lifting up.

That’s not allowing for a bowel movement. Now if you sit and you let your abdominal relax, your pelvic floor relaxed, and I want you to blow out as you bear down like you’re blowing bubbles. Not a forceful air but just [blows].

Do you feel your pelvic floor dropping down and widening? How simple is that? I mean that is something I work with patients coming in from GI doctors, surgeons, and different people.

You’re an adult, and I had you pretend to blow bubbles, and we’ve just fixed your constipation problem. That’s a big thing—this breath holding pattern—that reflexive tightening of the pelvic floor. That’s one thing I like to tell people.

Another thing is—because it’s such a common issue—bladder issues. Some very simple things that a lot of us have been taught wrong when we were children is stay hydrated. The general recommendation is drinking half your body weight in ounces. I think this varies a little bit between people but in that fluid. That doesn’t mean drink half your body weight in soda. It means you want at least two-thirds of your fluids to be plain, flat water, so no carbonation.

Then you can have some things that have bladder irritants, but if you’re having a problem watching those bladder irritants--everything good like caffeine, carbonation, sweeteners, acidic foods, tomato products, some spicy foods. Some of these things can irritate our bladder and want the bladder to contract sooner and empty.

Pay attention. Some people don’t have a problem with that, but if it is contributing to your issues, make sure you’re at least diluting those irritants by having a good amount of water.

A big thing I hear—I had just someone come into my clinic, and I was like, “Oh, no. Go home and tell your daughter you didn’t mean that.” She was like, “I always teach my daughter never to sit on a public toilet.”

What we’re training to do, it’s very different than in third world countries where they have this deep squat that relaxes the pelvic floor. When you’re hovering over a toilet seat, you are in a contraction, and you're teaching your bladder that it’s okay to contract or relax.

She said, “But she could get all those diseases on the toilet seat.” I laugh because I’ve never heard of anyone catching a disease from a toilet seat. I want to make a public service announcement that the toilets will be a lot cleaner if everyone just sat down and stop peeing on the seat. Maybe that could be the takeaway.

Then no going just in case. I have to catch myself saying this to my children, but every time you leave the house going, maybe you’ll be going half an hour, you’re going to go just in case because you’d hate to have to void half an hour into your shopping trip.

What you’re training your bladder what’s normal is that the bladder fills to a certain capacity. It's only half full, but you’re letting it empty every time it gets to that point or way sooner than you’re even getting that first initial signal that you need to go, you’re now training your bladder that when it’s at that capacity, it needs to contract and empty.

People come in saying, “I’ve always had a small bladder. I’ve always known all the time.” They’ve trained their bladder to do this. What’s normal is three to four hours, so if you’re getting it within that time, you need to go and void. If half an hour, you’re getting this message, see if you can distract yourself. Do a few quick pelvic floor contractions. Give yourself positive affirmation. See if you can even stretch it 15 more minutes. You’re gradually training your bladder to get back to that normal bladder interval that can hugely prevent a ton of problems with urinary frequency.

Those are my everybody could learn from those. Moms and dads, stop telling your children to keep going just in case and never sit on toilet seats.


[01:32:29] Ashley James: I laugh there because in my mind you just made the bladder like a lithium-ion battery, where you want to wait till it’s fully empty and then fully recharge it, not just plug it in every time it is 75%. You don’t go pee when you have 25% full bladder. You should wait till the bladder is full, and then pee because it helps tonify and stretch the bladder.


[01:32:55] Katie Tredo: Right.


[01:32:56] Ashley James: That’s some pretty good advice right there. I have been doing a little bit with our son who’s four because I don’t know when he was going to need to go pee. Sometimes he goes like hours without needing to go. I’m like, “It’s been all afternoon, and you haven’t needed to go. You should go right now.” He’s like, “I don’t need to.” And I’m like, “You should. You haven’t gone enough.”


[01:33:14] Katie Tredo: Kids sometimes have a holding pattern. That’s important, too. It is tough with kids. I have three kids. I’m not going to lie. When we have to stop, and one of them has to go potty, it is extremely inconvenient and very challenging to have all three of them in a stall. Sometimes, I don’t follow my advice, but I feel like the best we can.


[01:33:34] Ashley James: Do the best you can. Excellent. I like it. Wow! Thank you so much, Katie, for coming here.


[01:33:42] Katie Tredo: You’re welcome. Thank you.


[01:33:43] Ashley James: Absolutely. You shared a lot of great information. Did we get to everything that you wanted to share? Was there anything else that you wanted to make sure that you covered?


[01:33:51] Katie Tredo: I think I covered everything I was thinking of. The one thing maybe I’ll mention just for people who like numbers or someone out there who’s just learning that this is common is some of the recent statistics in the research, just as far as after childbirth what women are experiencing. Twenty-four percent of women have pain with intercourse a year and a half after childbirth; 77% have persistent back pain a year after childbirth; 49% experience urinary incontinence one year after childbirth.

That’s half of the women are experiencing what you said. They’re talking with their friends. They’re laughing. You have a baby, you go home, you pick up this heavy car seat carrier, and you’re doing all of this stuff. It’ s not that surprising, but these are all reasons.

Twenty-nine percent of people have undiagnosed pelvic fractures after having a baby, and 41% of undiagnosed tears on their pelvic floor muscles. If you’re pregnant out there or having children or have them ten years ago, if you’re having any of these problems, get yourself looked at and evaluated.

I am happy, to the best of my knowledge, to give you resources, and how to find someone who’s trained in pelvic floor therapy, and be available. As Ashley said, I’m on her Facebook page, so if you have any follow-up questions or anything like that, I’m happy to try to help you find someone near you.


[01:35:18] Ashley James: Yes, please join the Learn True Health Facebook group. You can go, which will redirect you to the group or just search Learn True Health on Facebook.

Katie, we’re going to make sure your information is in the show notes of the podcast on Learn True Health so those who want to connect with you can. I know mainly you work with people one on one. You want to see them physically, but I know that you have also worked with some people over Skype as more of a consultation to help them to find the right practitioners for them.

For those who want to reach out and talk to you, we’re going to make sure that your information is on the show notes of the podcast of


[01:36:04] Katie Tredo: Perfect.


[01:36:05] Ashley James: Excellent. It’s been a real pleasure having you here today. I want to implore the listeners to please share this episode with your girlfriends or the female family members of yours who are pregnant or have had kids because the more we spread this information, the more we can finally get this to be—

As you said, 50% of women are having pelvic floor issues even a year after birth. Half the population should be seeing a pelvic floor specialist for one thing or another even if we can do some corrections. It’s like going to the gym for our pelvis, and do some corrections, strengthen and stretch the right muscles, and hopefully, prevent a lot of things from going wrong in the future.


[01:36:58] Katie Tredo: Yeah, and we’ve talked a lot about how behind our culture is in treating these conditions we’re talking about. If we think women have it bad, men are like in the Dark Ages still because now doctors finally recognize these things in women, but these poor men are—I can’t tell you how many times I see someone for pelvic pain.

When a man has pelvic pain, 95% of the time, they do not have an infection, and 5% they have actual bacterial prostatitis. These men are given round after round of antibiotics and told that this is prostatitis.

I want to make that last mention because I probably see 70-80% is female and 20-30% male. I do focus a lot of my education on females, but these men need help too. I feel like there are not enough people talking about the problems that men have.


[01:37:52] Ashley James: Right. Because there’s shame in having pain in that area. Then you go to a doctor, and they’re like, “It’s probably an infection. Let’s treat it.”

Like you’re saying, most of the time it’s not an infection. It’s a pelvic floor issue. This is just eye-opening. Getting on round and round of antibiotics that aren’t needed is so damaging.


[01:38:14] Katie Tredo: It is, and discouraging. Not to mention if you keep seeing someone and you’re not getting better, it’s depressing.


[01:38:21] Ashley James: Right. You said that there’s an increased chance of depression and suicide in people who suffer from this pain.

You’re doing some really important work. I’m excited I had you on the show today. We allowed everyone to know and shed some light on this very important topic. I’m excited to continue this conversation in the Facebook group, the Learn True Health Facebook group, because I know we have a lot of great listeners wanting to thank you and also wanting to share their own experiences. So, thank you, Katie. This has been great having you on the show.


[01:38:53] Katie Tredo: Thank you. Thank you for allowing me to talk about this. It’s actually Pelvic Pain Awareness Month. My passion for this lies in educating people and teaching them about this. Thank you for giving me that platform.


[01:39:04] Ashley James: Happy Pelvic Pain Awareness Month.


[01:39:10] Ashley James: Are you into optimizing your health? Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price? For high-quality supplements and to talk to someone about what supplements are best for you, go to, and one of our fantastic true health coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are the highest quality and the best price. That's Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program.

Get Connected With Katie Tredo!



Recommended Reading

Ending Female Pain - Isa Herrera


Become A Health Coach-Learn More About The Institute for Integrative Nutrition's Health Coaching Certification Program by checking out these four resources:

1) Integrative Nutrition's Curriculum Guide:

2) The IIN Curriculum Syllabus:

3) Module One of the IIN curriculum:

4) Get three free chapters of Joshua Rosenthal's book:

Watch my little video on how to become a Certified Health Coach!


Learn How To Achieve Optimal Health From Naturopathic Doctors!

Get Learn True Health's Seven-Day Course For FREE! Visit


Do You Have Anxiety? End Anxiety Now! Learn Two Powerful Mind Tricks for Removing Anxiety, Ending Worry, & Controlling Fear So It Stops Controlling You! Attend my FREE Webinar that Will Teach You How! Click Here!

Need Help Ordering The Right Supplements For You?

Visit, and a FREE health coach will help you!

Do you have a blood sugar issue? I can help you achieve healthy, normal and balanced blood sugar naturally!

Visit for your free 30min coaching call with Ashley James!

Join Learn True Health's Facebook community group!
or search Learn True Health on Facebook!


If this episode made a difference in your life, please leave me a tip in the virtual tip jar by giving my podcast a great rating and review in iTunes!

Thank you!
Ashley James

Enjoyed this podcast episode? Visit my website Learn True Health with Ashley James so you can gain access to all of my episodes and more!

Follow the Learn True Health podcast on social media! Share with your friends and spread the word! Let's all get healthier & happier together!

Learn True Health - Facebook:
Learn True Health - Twitter:
Learn True Health - Medium:
Learn True Health - Pinterest:
Learn True Health - YouTube:


May 9, 2019

Learn more about the BEST BED for Healthy Sleep:

Coach Cathy's Website:


How To Create Amazing Sleep 

From a diagnosis of narcolepsy to 10 years of sleep deprivation--this 180-shift in sleep quality led integrative health coach Cathy Cooke to  "go down the rabbit hole of studying everything [she] could possibly learn about sleep." She's back on the show to share what she has discovered and done and how that benefited her sleep. Listen and learn, and if you're lucky, win a free one-hour health coaching consult with Cathy.


[00:00:01] Ashley James: Hello, true health seeker and welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health podcast. Today's episode is all about sleep—deep, restful, restorative, glorious sleep.

After listening to this episode, we will have empowered you with all the tools that you need to shift the quality of your sleep so that you sleep deeply through the night, and you wake up feeling so refreshed. Even if you think you have good sleep now, there's always room for improvement. I know you're going to get some amazing pointers today.

Cathy Cooke comes back on the show to share with us all the things that she's done with herself and with her clients to gain exceptional asleep. I myself have gone through quite a transformation in my sleep back when we recorded this interview in March. I was hunting for an organic bed. I've been hunting for it for months, and finally I came upon a company that I thought was very interesting because they had the most third-party studies and science related to a mattress. I didn't realize how much science could go into a mattress. And so I talked to some of the experts that I refer to, my mentors that I go to, and they all have the same mattress. I thought, “Wow, what am I missing? Everyone I talked to seems to have this mattress.”

So I called up the company. I started talking to them. They sent me many emails filled with the research and the studies and all the science. In fact, they even gave me the ingredient list because some people want to make sure that anything that goes into making it is 100% organic, non-toxic, doesn't off gas.

I learned through the literature they gave me that memory foam has nine carcinogenic chemicals linked to sudden infant death syndrome. My mind was blown. It kept expanding. It was like coming out of the Matrix when it came to mattresses. I knew that you could have a good mattress and get better sleep, but I had no idea.

So I jumped in, I got this brand new mattress. I've been sleeping on it for 34 nights now. So I can definitely say, I definitely have some experience. I'm really shocked that a mattress could have this much of a difference in my sleep quality. Everything we talk about in this interview, I've already incorporated in my life and seen some really great results. So I didn't know that I could get better sleep. Even though with all the good things I was doing, I was still turning and tossing through the night because my old mattress created pressure points. So I'd wake up a few times in the night to roll over. That would disrupt the depth of my sleep.

With this new mattress, I sleep solid through the night without moving because it creates no pressure points. If you sleep on your side, you'll wake up on your side. You feel totally refreshed. If I fall asleep on my back, I'll wake up on my back. I don't roll around in the night. I sleep solid. I’m now waking up an hour earlier than I usually do with way more energy because instead of disrupted sleep, I have solid sleep, and that's really cool. Considering I have a four-year-old that sleeps in the same bedroom as us, that is saying something.

Between having a husband, a kid, and a cat and everything, you'd think I'd be waking up all night, which I was, and I kept blaming my family thinking that I was waking up all night long because I have a cat and a four-year-old and a husband. But we changed our mattress and I sleep solidly through the night, and we all do, which is really exciting.

I wanted to wait to have a significant amount of time experiencing this mattress before I introduced it to you. It's been 34 days sleeping on the mattress. I've invited the founder of this company. He's going to be coming on the show in about a month. He put together an educational webinar. I said, “I feel that what you offer is the best of the best for my listeners. I want you guys to give my listeners a discount.”

It’s like a group buy, and I've seen some other holistic experts do this for their followers. They're going to give us a discount. Should you happen to be shopping for a new mattress or want an organic mattress that is the best sleep you'll ever have, they're going to give you a discount. They're going to give you a free mattress protector, and they're going to give you these pillows that are outstanding. They're hypoallergenic. They're my favorite. I said, “I love your pillows. Can you also give my listeners free pillows?” I think they’re like $100 each these pillows, so they're going to throw in two of their pillows, which is the biggest difference I've seen.

I used to go to my chiropractor every week, sometimes twice or three times a week because I'd wake up in pain. You ever had that where you’re like, “How did I injure myself while sleeping?” I'm not getting that old and that's exactly what kept happening to me. I have not seen my chiropractor in over a month. I'd have not needed to see my chiropractor, and I love him. I love visiting him. He's great. I have not needed to see him once since getting this new mattress. That's how powerful this technology is.

It also, for me, solidifies how damaging my old mattress was, and it was a newer mattress. We'd gotten it in 2011, so it wasn't that old. It was kind of middle of the line, like $2,200. I thought it would last us 10 years, and it started falling apart within two years, which I was really upset about. This new company that I got, the new mattress that I've had for the last just over a month, they have a 10-year or 20-year warranty—some crazy warranty that they absolutely guarantee if the mattress becomes warped in any way, they replace it immediately.

Really cool stuff. But I want you to check out the webinar they created. The founder of the company created this educational webinar—really blew my mind, lots of great information. There are two videos that he created, and they've put it on a website with the discount for my listeners—for you guys.

You can go to, go watch the video, go get the information. Their staff is amazing. I have asked them so many questions about everything they put into making the bed. It is 100% nontoxic. It doesn't off-gas. In fact, when we received delivery, we immediately slept on it. You don't have to air it out like memory foam where it creates a toxic gas. It does not. This bed is amazing—the most enjoyable sleep I've ever had.

So go to and check it out. Watch their videos. I am so thrilled to bring this information to you. It’s life-changing because if you've tried everything and you still toss and turn, if you're in pain, if you wake up with an injury of the neck or lower back and you're like, “What's going on?” It's your mattress.

Our mattresses can damage us. They can prevent us from healing, from fully going into a deep healing sleep, so that we stay inflamed, so that we sustain pain longer, create stiffness and pain. That affects our hormones because if we don't get deep, restful sleep, it affects everything. It affects our brain health, our immune health—everything. Even blood sugar and weight loss can be impacted by poor sleep. Every system of the body needs deep, restful sleep.

That's why I'm really excited for you to check this out. Go watch that webinar on that page:, look into it, and see what you think. Take in the information, see what you think because I am so excited to bring this to you.

If you have any friends or family, they're looking for a good bed, please send them to because this information is wonderful, and the bed is absolutely amazing. I'm so impressed with this company. I actually tried a few other “organic mattresses” before coming upon this one. So I took advantage of the other companies’ return policies. All these companies now have return policies. and this one has a 90-day one. I’m 34 days in, you cannot take this mattress away from me. I will not give it back. This is the mattress I will be sleeping on for the rest of my life. That's how good it is.

I'm really glad that I could share this with you. I know it's going to make a big difference in everyone's lives. Enjoy today's interview. It’s wonderful information about everything we can do to improve sleep, and of course, your mattress is very important. Go to to check out all that great information.


[00:09:59] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I'm your host, Ashley James. This is Episode 352.

I am very excited to have back on the show, Cathy Cooke. She's a building biologist and a health coach. She was on our show, Episode 323. It was very interesting. I highly recommend going back and listening to that episode. Today is a continuation because we decided in that first episode we wanted to talk about the importance of sleep and how to create a lifestyle that allows you to have the deepest and restorative healing sleep possible.

So welcome, Cathy, back to the show. It is fantastic to have you here again.


[00:10:51] Cathy Cooke: Thanks so much, Ashley. I had so much fun the first time. I'm super excited to be back.


[00:10:56] Ashley James: Absolutely. I know a lot of listeners reached out. They had questions for you after our first interview. Listeners can go to your website, which is Of course, the links to everything that Cathy Cooke does is going to be in the show notes of today's podcast at

Cathy has also very graciously offered to give to one lucky listener a free one-hour health coaching consult. We're going to do that in the Facebook group. After this episode goes live, please join the Learn True Health Facebook group, and we're going to have a post there for about a week, and everyone can comment what they love learning about today from Cathy in today's show. And then, we'll do a random draw, Learn True Health Facebook group and roll the dice, and a lucky listener will get a hook-up with health coach Cathy Cooke.

Let's dive right in. Since the last episode, the first episode, episode 323, you went into your story and you shared about everything that led to you becoming an expert in not only helping people heal their bodies, but also organizing their environment in a way that's optimally supportive of their health. We're going to dive right into this concept of sleep. Did something happen to you in your life that made you want to go down this rabbit hole and learn more about how to correct your sleep or how to help others sleep? What happened that made you want to become an expert in this subject?


[00:12:34] Cathy Cooke: Great question. For the first 30 years of my life, I slept like a champ. I slept actually way too much. At one point, I was actually diagnosed as being narcoleptic. That diagnosis was since rescinded, but I could sleep anywhere, anytime so much. I was falling asleep in class, pretty much every single class from high school and college. It was pretty severe.

And then something happened around the age of 30, and there was a complete shift. It went from this severe narcoleptic-like symptoms to insomnia, and it kind of fascinated me. It was super frustrating, but it was like, “Why would I have this 180 shift from one extreme to the other?” And then for many years, I struggled to sleep through the night and to get restful sound, sleep—the kind of sleep that we need every night.

And so I just went down the rabbit hole of studying everything I could possibly learn about sleep to identify what I was doing wrong, what the underlying issues might be for why I was having these sleeping issues. Fourteen years later, I've just learned so much about sleep that I had to put this out there for other people because I know so many people suffer from sleeping issues.


[00:14:19] Ashley James: Absolutely. You just jogged my memory . In high school and college, I really had a hard time staying awake. Even though in college I found every class fascinating—neurology, biology, pathology, anatomy—ugh! I love that stuff. But I could not stay awake, especially later in the day. It didn't matter how much sleep I got at night, and it took me years to realize that that was because I had an underlying blood sugar problem. I had prediabetes, and it was gearing up to become full-blown type 2 diabetes. But that was my problem. I had no idea that is an early symptom of the blood sugar problems.


[00:15:06] Cathy Cooke: Yeah, that's a great story. Blood sugar is hugely impactful on sleep, and most people do not ever make that connection. For me, I think that was a very large issue in my first 30 years with sleeping excessively because I was not aware of how to balance your blood sugar. In hindsight looking back, this was in the era of everything needs to be low fat. I was hardly eating any protein. If it said low fat on the box, I was going to eat it.

Clearly, it was getting a lot of sugar because that's how the low-fat products taste good. They just pump them up with sugar, and I was getting very little nutrients. I wasn't getting vitamins and minerals and phytonutrients from whole foods, so my body was just exhausted, which sounds was probably a lot like what you experienced.


[00:16:07] Ashley James: Did you fall asleep while you're driving or talking to people?


[00:16:12] Cathy Cooke: Oh, my gosh. Yes, I hate to admit that. Not necessarily while I was conversing with people, but I had a little system down, and I can't believe I'm going to admit this to you and your listeners, but I would be at a red light, and I would press my foot really hard on the brake, and I would literally pass out for 20-30 seconds, and then cars would start moving, and I would wake up and drive. It was insane.


[00:16:38] Ashley James: Oh, my Gosh.


[00:16:39] Cathy Cooke: I know. It was horrible.


[00:16:42] Ashley James: Did you ever figure out what caused the narcolepsy? Was it blood sugar? Do you know why you had it?


[00:16:50] Cathy Cooke: It's interesting because when we talked last time, I had mentioned that I had been bit by a tick when I was 12, and then I had never been the same since. It was probably about a year after. Looking back, I've done a lot of hindsight investigating into when all of these symptoms began, and it was about a year after that tick bite that this hypersomnia started.

Looking back, I feel like that bacterial infection that we get from tick bites triggered something in me. I don't know if it was something along the lines of gene expression or if it was just the bacteria itself or how that happened, but it all started from there. I hear that a lot from people when they've had some of these infections that you might get acute symptoms for a little bit, and then nothing happens for several months to a year, and then the chronic symptoms really kick in. And so I think it stemmed from there, but additionally, my diet played a huge role.


[00:18:07] Ashley James: Right. I've had several people in the show who have reversed Lyme disease, and they all say that the environment of the body creates this perfect space for the spirochete, that infection from the Lyme, plus the co-infections that tend to come with it. Those co-infections will settle. It's like a garden that is perfect for weeds, and it’s like the perfect environment that’s set up. You start with one weed, and there's 10 different varieties of weeds. It's like the perfect environment for the body to then have all these co-infections. And so like you said, you even though you were bitten by the tick, the environment to your body was undernourished—too much junk food, too much sugar, too much processed food. It was creating a perfect environment for the other parasites to thrive.


[00:19:17] Cathy Cooke: That's very well said, and I would completely agree. You often have to question why some people get bit by ticks all summer long, and they never have a symptom. Why does one person become affected with all of these symptoms and another person doesn't? I think you bring up a great point. It's all about the terrain inside the body. I think that we also want to give consideration to our emotional environment, how is our mental health, because those ACES or adverse childhood events and emotional trauma that we have can really wreck havoc on our internal terrain, and a lot of us don't make that connection either.


[00:20:08] Ashley James: So all of a sudden it flipped. You went from too much sleep to no sleep or very little sleep. Were you having problems falling asleep or staying asleep or both?


[00:20:21] Cathy Cooke: It was definitely both. It was not consistent. It was kind of all over the place.


[00:20:29] Ashley James: How long were you having sleep deprivation for?


[00:20:33] Cathy Cooke: I'd say that this went on pretty severely for about 10 years.


[00:20:42] Ashley James: Wow.


[00:20:43] Cathy Cooke: Yes, it was a very long time. I'll just backtrack a little bit. This happened around the time, one, I had just spent a month in Siberia and did some traveling in some underdeveloped countries, so the idea of microbes was heavy in my mind. And two, I started to really jump on some of these health fad, and I started to detox aggressively. I started to juice a lot, and I went on a raw diet. I was actually living in Alaska at the time, which is the silliest thing to do—a raw diet in a cold place like that. So I created the perfect storm of being really aggressive and saying, “I'm going to be the healthiest person in the world and I'm going raw, and I'm going to start juicing.” And then I had horrible, horrible, horrible symptoms of this.

A few months after a lot of these symptoms started, I had a naturopathic doctor look in my mouth, and he was like, “We need to run a heavy metals test on you,” because I had a number of amalgam fillings in my mouth from when I was a child. We ran a heavy metals test and my mercury levels, in his words, they're the highest he’d ever seen. They were so off the charts. What I believe had happened is I was aggressively trying to clean up my body, and I liberated all of these heavy metals and probably some microbes, and it was too overwhelming for my body to be able to process.

So this is the reason why I always caution people when they want to jump into these colon cleanses or these fasts or whatever aggressive “detoxes” are, you really need to be very cautious and know what you're doing because if you're somebody like me who didn't have any idea what I was doing at the time, and you liberate all of this stuff that the body can't handle, you can have severe health symptoms like I did, which manifested in 10 years of insomnia, feeling hung over a lot, muscle weakness, and a number of other issues.

But the benefit of this is what I learned, and over the years was able to piece together and I worked with some excellent practitioners who helped me to understand the big picture, and then we could peel the onion back one layer at a time and address all of the underlying issues until I got to the point where I am today, which is significantly better and almost symptom free.


[00:23:50] Ashley James: Right. And this struggle has led you to become a holistic nutritionist and integrative health coach and building biologist. You dedicated your life not only to healing your body, but to healing other people. It's such a common theme—the best healers in the world suffered for years. That's what led them down that path.

I would rather see a healer who has been sick than one who cannot relate to me—who's never been sick. So you have learned so much. You have to put on that detective cap. You have to advocate for yourself and listen to your intuition. There's so many tools that you need to hone in order to not only heal your body, but then to go on to help others heal

So there you are, 10 years have gone by, what happened? Was there an aha moment? Was there a light bulb? Did you make some changes and noticed that you could sleep perfectly or was there a bunch of things that you had to have fall into place to start to slowly get better sleep?


[00:25:08] Cathy Cooke: Yeah, it was really a process. It was one thing at a time. There are multiple issues that I had to address, including the heavy metals, lyme and addressing or managing the microbial infections, and of course the EMS and the blood sugar balancing and blue light exposure. It was just kind of one thing helped a little bit. And then I learned about another thing, and then I added that in, so it was very cumulative, and it was multiple pieces put together.


[00:25:48] Ashley James: Did you have an Aha moment? Was there any one time when you went, “Oh, my gosh. It's working. There's hope.”


[00:25:57] Cathy Cooke: Well, yeah, I would say with each of these issues that I identified, it gave me more and more hope each time. For example, once I learned about blood sugar balancing—oh my gosh—it was dramatically impactful when I started to add in more healthy proteins, and cut back on the processed foods. That was a huge shift, and that piece of it really helped me with the sleep maintenance, with sleeping through the night.

But I still had a lot of issues with falling asleep. I kept hearing about these blue light blocking glasses and this exposure to artificial light at night. I really didn't understand it, but I bought just a cheap pair of orange safety glasses off of Amazon for $10, and the first night I wore those, I put them on and about five minutes later I was a little dizzy and out of it. And I was like, “Whoa, what's that about?” I went to bed shortly after, maybe 30 minutes after because I just kind of got tired all of a sudden, and I fell asleep right away. It was like, “Oh, my gosh. That was incredibly impactful.”

There were still times when I wasn't falling asleep right away. Then I got into the EMS and then I realized, “I'm sitting here watching a show at the end of the day on this couch and my router is plugged in right behind me. That's probably not a good idea.” And so I unplugged the router, and then I saw even more improvement. My sleep was so bad in the beginning that I made huge improvements with each of these. Each time was like, “Wow, that's intense. That was so impactful.” And just with each mitigation that I made, the better everything became.


[00:28:05] Ashley James: Very cool. How is your sleep now?


[00:28:08] Cathy Cooke: It's great. It's so much better than it's been before. I do have to take a lot of precautions. Everything with my sleep, it starts the moment I get up till the time that I lay my head down at the end of the day. All of the decisions I'm making through the day in some respect are helping me to optimize my sleep at the end of the day. I have to work hard at it, but it's fine because those things that I do to ensure that I get better sleep are very important for overall health in a variety of ways. Light exposure first thing in the morning, the blood sugar balancing, stress management, inflammatory foods—everything.


[00:28:57] Ashley James: Can you walk us through your day? Let's say we just woke up. Do you wake up to an alarm clock or do you let your body wake up naturally? Walk us through your day and explain each thing you do throughout the day to optimize your circadian rhythm and your sleep at night.


[00:29:15] Cathy Cooke: Sure. I wake up naturally, which is definitely what I prefer. There are certainly times when you have to use an alarm clock if you've got an early morning meeting or early morning flight or something like that. But I definitely prefer to wake up naturally because when we're waking up with an alarm clock, if we're in a certain deep sleep or REM sleep or a certain stage that we’re jolted out of, that can really start our day off on the wrong foot. So I prefer to wake up without an alarm clock, and I usually get up between say 7 and 8 A.M., which is kind of late for some people, but I've always been a person that needs about 9-10 hours of sleep, which I wish I didn't, but that's just the way my body has always been, and I have to respect that.

So I wake up between seven and eight, and the very first thing I do is drink a lot of water, drink some lemon water. If I'm taking supplements at the time, I take my supplements, and then I put my shoes on and head outside.


[00:30:28] Ashley James: So let's back it up. Why drink lemon water first thing in the morning?


[00:30:32] Cathy Cooke: Great question. I like the lemon water first thing in the morning, one reason is it can stimulate the liver a little bit so it can help to detoxify some of what's happened in the middle of the night because your liver is very active in the middle of the night. That's where it does a lot of its detoxification. And then the lemon water also helps to stimulate stomach acid and prepares you for digestion for the rest of the day. And it's a little bit alkalinizing as well, which can be helpful for some of us.


[00:31:04] Ashley James: Some people can't tolerate lemon water first thing in the morning. Would you suggest that they try sipping vinegar or like an apple cider vinegar instead mixed with a little water?


[00:31:15] Cathy Cooke: Sure. That would be fine. I have to be honest, there's not a plethora of science backing up that lemon water or apple cider vinegar is the best thing in the world for us. There's a little bit, but I do it mostly because I like the flavor, and I like stimulating that digestion. It's not something that everybody necessarily has to do, but if you want a little extra of a boost, apple cider vinegar could be fine. Even a bit of orange essence from an orange peelm I find to be really nice. You can infuse your water with lemon rinds or orange rinds, basil, mint—that kind of thing. That can be really helpful. Sometimes the flavor of those things will encourage you to drink more water, which is important in the morning because we haven't had any liquids for eight hours, so we can tend to be a little bit dehydrated in the morning.


[00:32:22] Ashley James: The number one thing is to get some hydration. I have heard that some people really resonate with a pinch of Himalayan sea salt in their water. Some people prefer room temperature or even slightly warm water as opposed to drinking cold water first thing in the morning.

So we have to play with it, dial it in. But the most important thing is that we're getting that hydration first thing in the morning, so getting 8-16 ounces. I drink about 20 ounces first thing in the morning, so depending on your needs. I notice I'm definitely thirsty first thing in the morning.

It's priming the pump. When we drink water first thing in the morning, we tend to drink more throughout the day and continue the hydration. Especially a lot of people go for the caffeine in the morning, which dehydrate us. We want to get on top of the hydration before we start pumping ourselves full of coffee.


[00:33:24] Cathy Cooke: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great tip about the salt, too. I actually do that exact thing. I use Celtic Sea salt for the minerals, and put a little of that in my water for a variety of reasons, and the electrolyte balances great.


[00:33:40] Ashley James: There's a big fad right now with juicing celery first thing in the morning. That contains some electrolytes. People could use some celery if they want it, but the whole point is get the water in, and you’ll get the hydration.

So you get some water and some lemon water in you, you throw on your sneakers, and you go outside. Why are you doing that first thing in the morning especially if it's cold?


[00:34:03] Cathy Cooke: A number of reasons. The most important for me is that sunlight exposure first thing in the morning. When we get sunlight on our eyeballs and on our skin, our circadian rhythm is taking a really important cue that it's morning. That helps to train our circadian rhythm over the course of the day of what time it is—"My cortisol should be high right now. I should be circulating my blood. I should be moving. I'm getting energetic to prepare for the day.” It's just a important cue to our body to set our circadian rhythm for the rest of the day. So getting that sunlight exposure, even if it's cloudy, the sunlight that you're getting even through the clouds is still very impactful.

Even when it's cold, even when it's raining, snowing, I go out pretty much no matter what. If it's a torrential downpour, I might not, but even if it's very cold, that cold weather exposure is actually really good for us. Humans aren't supposed to be in 72 degrees, 24 hours a day for 365 days a year. We're not meant to be comfortable all the time. Our body actually wants these cues that it's really hot or it's really cold because that's information for us about what time of day it is, about what time of year it is. Our DNA really thrives on having this information so that it knows where it's at in space, and where it's at in the time of day and the time of year.

So that cold exposure—because we're in March, it's still pretty cold here in Idaho—it's actually very invigorating to me in the morning. And then the movement that I'm getting just from walking, that circulation, the lymph flow, just getting energetic and I'm prepared for the day, it's all very important.


[00:36:17] Ashley James: I've also heard that when direct sunlight—I mean not staring at the sun, but sunlight and you're outside. You can't get this if you're just looking out your window, if you're in your car looking out the window. You actually have to be outside with sunlight and it can be through clouds. But when you're outside in the sunlight in the morning, it burns off the melatonin through the circulation in your eyeballs. I've heard that's how the body is burning off the rest of the melatonin. That's why we feel so awake and perky after a few minutes outside first thing in the morning.


[00:37:06] Cathy Cooke: Interesting. I don't know specifically what the mechanism is there. But it definitely makes a lot of sense because as our hormones shift through the night, melatonin is highest at night of course, and then we see it decline, and so it should be very low in the morning. Where's the opposite curve with our cortisol? It should be very low at night, and then it rises first thing in the morning. So that makes a lot of sense, and the cortisol, of course, is very energizing.


[00:37:39] Ashley James: So there you are, you spend a few minutes outside after your hydration. Now what do you do?


[00:37:47] Cathy Cooke: After that, it depends on my schedule for the day. Generally, I like to block out between 30 minutes to an hour after a brief morning walk to do some kind of movement. That's usually yoga. It could be some kind of cardiovascular or weightlifting, but yoga is my preferred method because you can get a big cardiovascular workout from yoga as well as strength training.

But I like the mindfulness piece of yoga, and I like that, while I'm getting a good workout often with the yoga routine that I choose, I'm also getting the mindfulness piece. So that helps me to set my day off with good intentions and in a good mental health capacity.

Sometimes it's not vigorous. Sometimes it's like, “Ugh, I'm exhausted today.” It just turns out to be more of a relaxing, stretching routine and that's just fine. But anything that I can do to move my body and prepare my mind for the workday. Sometimes I don't have time for that, but that's preferred. And then after I get some movement in, I jump right into the workday.


[00:39:10] Ashley James: What about breakfast? How important is your breakfast for your sleep?


[00:39:14] Cathy Cooke: It's interesting. We've talked a lot about blood sugar balancing already, and what I have found is that if I have to get out of the house, go to work right away, or I've got a really intensive day as far as my mental capacity—I have to use a lot of brain power—that eating first thing in the morning is helpful for me. But when I'm working from home and I don't need quite as much energy in that regard, I find that intermittent fasting works much better.

And so it's something that I've played with over the years, and certain times of the year might be different than other times, so it's not a hard and fast rule for me. But I would say over the last six months, I probably don't eat breakfast. I have maybe some warm herbal teas, or I'll have more lemon water. But I'm usually eating about 12 or 1:00 PM for my first meal of the day. And that works really well for me right now. It changes. Sometimes it doesn't. But that seems to be where my blood sugar really likes that.


[00:40:27] Ashley James: So you're listening to your body. I think a lot of people do intermittent fasting without really listening to their body, and the one pitfall that people can get tripped up by is that if they skip breakfast, they'll eat a second dinner late at night. We have to remember that intermittent fasting is not just skipping breakfast, it's also narrowing the eating window.

If we’re going to eat our first meal around 11 or noon, then we need to make sure that we eat our last meal around six or seven and eight at the very latest, but that's getting too late because we want to be on an empty stomach going to bed, and a lot of people overeat before going to bed, and so they're not sleeping and healing throughout the night. They're digesting throughout the night.


[00:41:22] Cathy Cooke: Yeah, that's a good point.


[00:41:23] Ashley James: I thought it was really fascinating to find out that 30% of our energy goes towards digesting. So if we're doing that in our sleep, we're not restoring. We're not healing, and we're not going to feel revitalized the next day. Also, we don't really need calories at night. Our body can use up the stores in the liver and in the muscles or the energy stores. We don't really need to consume calories. So the calories that we consume late at night will end up getting processed and stored as fat cause we're not exercising in our sleep.

So that's a big problem that we have is that people will skip breakfast because they've heard intermittent fasting is good, or they just drink a coffee and they skip breakfast because they have created a bad habit. But then they'll eat most of their calories after the sun has set.


[00:42:14] Cathy Cooke: That's a really good consideration. I'm glad you brought that up. That's one of the reasons why I mentioned it, that this is what's working for me right now. It doesn't always work for me, and it's definitely not for everybody. I would say in my experience, the more thyroid and adrenal issues that you might have, the harder it is for someone to be effective with intermittent fasting. And you're absolutely right—I see that exact thing happening where somebody skips breakfast and then they just overdo it the rest of the day.

You really got to pay attention to, is this something that seems manageable and seems intuitively okay for the habits that come out the rest of the day for you? So yeah, it's really important to monitor what's happening in your body.


[00:43:10] Ashley James: Because you have found that creating healthy blood sugar, optimizing healthy blood sugar is so important for sleep. Can you give some examples of what you eat for lunch?


[00:43:23] Cathy Cooke: Sure. I like to consider Ayurvedic and traditional Chinese medicine principles, which means that I try to eat with the seasons. So what I eat for my first meal of the day or any meal will often vary by the seasons. So right now it's March, and pretty soon we're going to start having things like sprouts and young vegetables and real bitter foods that are going to prepare us for springtime and kind of that shedding of the extra weight or the heaviness that we've carried through the winter, which provided warmth and installation for us.

We're coming into the time where we're going to start shutting that. So I've been adding a little bit of greens and a little bit of sprouts into my meals. But I don't go real heavy on the raw vegetables because I find that my digestion isn't really strong enough for a lot of raw foods. Like today, I had a couple of pasture-based eggs, which are excellent, and I had a little bit of pasture-based bacon, which I understand is not for everybody, and I don't do that often, but that just happened to be what I had today. And then I had some big squash with that and a little bit of some of these micro greens and sprouts that I had mentioned. So that was my meal for today.


[00:45:02] Ashley James: Yummy. Since we're sharing our meals, I had a quinoa with a vegetable stew that I made with my husband. We took every vegetable known to man and we put it through our veggie bullet food processor to basically make it shaved. So make little shavings of carrot, beet, zucchini, onion, mushrooms, celery, kale and red peppers. So we just basically picked every vegetable, everything we had in the fridge, and we made a big pot of it, and just a little bit of water because so much water gets released from the vegetables as we simmered it. And then we added a bunch of different kinds of beans, and we added some chili spices. We made a huge batch of it, and it's been feeding us for days, but we recently added a bunch of quinoa to it, so it came out like a delicious stew, and it's plant based and affordable. It's all organic, and it tastes amazing.

It's really funny. When we get into the kitchen, my husband and I, we make some recipes together. We always say, “Why do we ever eat out?” We're always disappointed. We overpay. We’re disappointed because of the food contamination because we have so many allergies in our house that it's like a Russian roulette. Our son is allergic to garlic. Try to go to a restaurant and not have garlic on something. My husband is vegan. We're allergic to dairy, wheat and eggs.

And so when we do go out, it is definitely Russian roulette, but we're always disappointed. We ended up more and more and more cooking at home, but doing these large batches of food, so that we can eat it for days. People say, “Isn't that boring, eating the same thing?” And I tell you, it tastes different every day because it's marinating. And so every time we heat it up, sometimes we'll add other stuff to it, but we've just made this giant pot, and it's lasted almost a week. We even brought over a bunch to a friend's house yesterday cause she's feeling sick.

It's just one of those things where you can eat super healthy on a budget and save a lot of time. You just have to find the right recipes. But what I love about what we ate, even though there wasn't any meat in it, it was still very high in plant-based protein because of the beans and the quinoa, and all the carbs that were in it were low-glycemic, and so it doesn't create a blood sugar spike. So those are two examples—your example and my example of some blood sugar responsible meals that we can have for lunch.

So what happens the rest of the day? What other habits have you created to support healthy sleep?


[00:48:16] Cathy Cooke: I'm working the rest of the day usually. So my EMF environment is a big piece of this. I'm fortunate in that I work from home, so I don't have to have WiFi or other people's cell phones or Bluetooth or whatever it is out in thec world that is going to impact me. My computer is plugged in via an ethernet. My phone is off. And it's a very low EMF environment in my home.

I do notice that, in the past, when I've been working for people and I'm working in an office environment or in a building, that my sleep does suffer because you can't go anywhere without the building having WiFi and multiple people having their phones. It's everywhere.

The choice for me to work on my own has been partly because of that, so that I can avoid all of that EMF exposure that I would get working for somebody else in a group setting. So I'm at home and my EMF environment is very low. While I am working, I make sure to move often. I mentioned that I do exercise earlier in the day, but I also try to make sure that I get little spurts of exercise during the rest of the day, and that's usually between 5-10 minutes. Keeping the circulation going, keeping the lymph moving because people don't realize that our lymph has no pump. If we don't move, our lymph doesn't move.

So keeping the circulation and the lymph movement going throughout the day is really important, and also getting outside. So even though I get sun exposure first thing in the morning, really human beings are meant to be outside 24 hours a day. So I try to go outside at least three times a day, preferably more. But just so I get the different intensity of sunlight because again, the bright light in the morning versus the light at noon versus the light in the evening, they're all different. They're different intensities. They're different colors. And those are all cues, again, to our circadian rhythm about where we are in the day. So getting outside throughout the workday, moving throughout the workday is also very important to me.


[00:51:03] Ashley James: I want to go back to the low EMF discussion. For those who didn't listen to your Episode 323, why does EMF impact sleep?


[00:51:18] Cathy Cooke: Great question. What we know about EMF—that stands for electromagnetic fields. So this is the radiation that we're getting from our wireless devices, as well as the wiring in our walls, as well as our electronics that have motors, and all of this stuff is putting off electricity in a certain form.

So what we know from the science is that the EMF affect our voltage gated calcium channels. So that means that our body is electric, our body works off of electric signaling, and that's why we have electrolytes. Hence the name--e electrolytes. It helps signals within our cells communicate with each other. So our voltage gated calcium channels, this means that our cells are not supposed to have a lot of calcium inside the cell. It's supposed to be on the outside.

And when we get exposure to these frequencies from EMFs that are different than our bodies— our bodies usually run on 60 hertz—and all these other frequencies are just all over the place, way different magnitudes than our own bodies. So this electrical interference is very confusing to the body. We have found through a lot of scientific research that the calcium channels are opened because they work on voltage. They’re opened and calcium can flood into the cell. And when calcium floods into the cell, we get reactive oxygen species, which you can consider as oxidative stress. And that oxidative stress, as you probably know, Ashley, is the beginning of any chronic health symptom or a health condition that you can name. I mean all of our modern health conditions can stem from this kind of oxidative stress because it can manifest in many, many different ways.

So what symptoms do we see from that? All of the symptoms that I mentioned earlier, and then we've got this whole nervous system disruption happening. And when you think about the body being compromised on the nervous system, clearly that's not setting up a stage for rest for our body. Our nervous system is overburdened, the communication is all confused, neurotransmitters are affected. The brain doesn't know—is it day? Is it night, what's going on? And it just doesn't set an environment for the body to be able to rest and to calm down.


[00:54:12] Ashley James: Very interesting, and interesting that you noticed a difference between when you're in office buildings versus in your own home, which you being a building biologist, that's a service you offer. You teach people in their offices and in their homes, how to lower exposure to things that are harming them such as EMFs.

Ty Bollinger, the creator of the Truth About Cancer and the Truth About Vaccines, he was on my show and he said that he was in New York City to be on—I can't remember what TV show—CNN or something big like that. He couldn't sleep that night, and it was almost painful. He’s used to living out like you—low EMF. He’s not surrounded by it. And when you are in a major city and you turn on the WiFi and your cell phone or your laptop and you see all the routers that you're be exposed to, you're being exposed to sometimes 200 different WiFi signals.

And he said he could feel it. He couldn't sleep that night. It just bombarded his cells. He really, really could tell the difference. And then there's a specialist here, a doctor local to me, I’ve had him on the show, Dr. Dietrich Klinghardt, he's world renowned for helping people to reverse these mystery diseases, and he's really good at helping to reverse autism.

The first thing he does with children of autism is he has the parents completely remove the child from all WiFi because he sees that it damages their brains because he sees that the those with autism have trouble detoxing. There's heavy metal accumulation in their nervous tissue, and the heavy metals inside the brain will vibrate at the 60 hertz from the exposure to the WiFi signal, for example, and to other EMFs.

And so he has them immediately changed their environment to be incredibly low EMF and then start them on a very gentle detox. He gets incredible results. He's had people go from nonverbal to be able to go to college. That level of shift because we're just supporting the body's ability to heal itself, to detox correctly, safely, efficiently again, nutrify the body again, nitrify the cells.

Now you brought up lymph, and this is I think a really important topic. I don't want to pass up an opportunity for those to learn about it. So you mentioned that the lymph system doesn't have a pump, but people may not know what the lymph system is. So can you explain the absolute importance of what is lymph, why is it really important to move your body in order to make lymph flow through the body?


[00:57:29] Cathy Cooke: Good question. The lymph system is essentially the network of tissues in the body that help rid the body of toxins and waste or unwanted materials. We've got lymph everywhere, all throughout the body. Think of the blood vessels throughout your body, and it's everywhere, and so is the lymph.

Oftentimes people think of lympth being kind of in their neck because when you get sick and you've got a sore throat, your lymph nodes in your neck will kind of get swollen. And that's a really tangible way to think about what's happening there because the immune system is being activated there to help the lymph get rid of what it doesn't want, which is in this case, the microbes or whatever it is that's making you sick.

So that lymph system, the importance there, we want to remove the accumulated waste. Unlike the heart, which pumps and pumps blood all throughout the body, that lymph will essentially just sit there unless we contract our muscles throughout the day. So muscle movement and circulation are what helps the lymph to actually move, and we can actually do this manually too. You can go to a massage therapist who specializes in lymph drainage or lymph massage, and it's basically gentle touches throughout the body to encourage the lymph to move. Exercise, of course, is going to be the most accessible way that we get lymph movement throughout the day.

But it's really important because people who are not moving a lot or not exercising, or even if they exercise once in the morning and then they sit for the rest of the day, while you may have exercise in the morning, but that sitting for the next 10 hours that you do is not good. You're not getting lymph movement and you're not getting circulation, so things just kind of become stagnant. Of course, that's not what we want. We want movement, circulation and drainage happening.


[00:59:55] Ashley James: I like to illustrate the lymph system as I think about the individual cell as a water balloon. So individual cells are enclosed and they have their own system going on, and they have all these amazing processes happening inside the cell, and they're making waste like a car. It’s making exhaust. It has all this waste it needs to get rid of, and we need to get rid of the waste in order to bring in more nutrition, so the cell can continue being healthy.

And so the cell poops out the waste, and some waste is pooped out into the lymph fluid that bathes each cell. Some of our waste does get carried away by the venous blood flow. But a lot of this waste is pooped out from the cell into the lymph, and it'll just sit there. All this waste, this junk, this material, possible pathogens like mold and bacteria and viruses is just sitting there and stagnating around, surrounding our swamp water, surrounding our 37.2 trillion cells in our body.

And the only thing that's going to make that lymph fluid move back into the liver, because it all collects and come back up and flows back into the liver for the liver to process, for the body to filter and process, it will only move when we move or deep breathe. Deep breathing is really good for moving lymph as well because it creates this negative cavity in the chest and that pulls it up.

But like you said, someone who's sick could just do range of motion exercises where they're just bending their ankles, bending their toes, bending their knees. Because every time we bend any appendage, any joint, the second we bend it to its full extent, then bend it back, you are pumping the lymph because all the lymph nodes are surrounding each joint.

It’s really amazing. When you start to study how the body was created, there's such intelligence behind it. It really fascinates me that they have the religious people on one sidem and we have the scientists on the other. One says there's no god. The other one says there is God.

When you start to study the body, it is so complex and so brilliant, and it makes so much sense when you start to understand how the body works. You start to see there's this world that we don't understand where we came from. We have ideas. We can all argue about where we came from, but we can all agree that the body is amazing and brilliant, and there's so much intelligence.

And so if we can just support the body by coming back to nature, like when you said, “Get up and move your body. We were never meant to sit at a chair.” In fact, we really didn't have chairs growing up as cavemen or whatever. We would squat. We used to be able to squat all the time, and we would move. Our bodies are just meant to move often. The more that we sit at our desks, the more we're developing problems with our neck like stenosis. We're having these chronic conditions come up from lack of movement, which is really interesting that we're developing. It's purely from lifestyle.

So you're saying, “Get up, maybe set a timer or have a routine.” If you drink enough water, you'll need to pee throughout the day. So there's get up and do some movement. But do you have any suggestions? Let's say someone has a desk job, but they have the freedom to get up. They're not chained to their desks like a factory where they have to stay there, but they can get up and move around. Do you have any suggestions for how do we create this habit or when we do get up to go pee and grab a glass of water, do you have some suggestions where we can do for a few minutes just to maximize that movement before we clear the cobwebs and then go back to work?


[01:04:26] Cathy Cooke: Sure. I think that the motivation is going to be different for everyone. I find that for some people, setting an alarm works well. There are several apps that you can download, and there are numerous ones. I don't have a favorite one to recommend, but they’d be worth looking into and playing with, but different apps that will remind you to get up every 45 minutes or every hour or 20 minutes or whatever it is that works for you. And then they can prompt you to do a different exercise. Say you have to get up and do 10 push-ups or 20 squats or 20 jumping jacks or whatever it is.

I find that people find that really helpful or it's just, “Okay, I've been sitting for an hour, I have to go outside for 10 minutes.” There's a number of different ways to do this. I found that there's not one recommendation that works for everybody because some people don't want to go outside, or they don't want to do push-ups, or they're better off with, “At 10 o'clock, I get up and go visit my co-worker who's down the hall or on the second floor.”

I think people just have to be creative and identify what works best for them and then stick to it, of course. That's where I find that the apps help a lot because the apps are an outside influence to say, “Hey, you got to stop. You got to do this now.” We just have to take accountability for our actions and actually do it.


[01:06:10] Ashley James: For those who say, “Oh, I just don't have time to take all this free time out of my work,” my counter to that is that we find that when people do take breaks, even just five minutes every hour to stretch, breathe, move, drink more water, and then get back to it, that break cleared the cobwebs, and now you're even more efficient at work for the next hour. You’re moral alert, more awake.

Because when we're in stress mode, our body shunts blood away from logic centers of the brain, and we really end up in this brain fog where we don't have the full access to our cognitive abilities. Taking those breaks throughout the day are going to re-energize us, restore us, boost our immune system, help us with sleep at night, help us to move the sludge out of our body and detoxify, and then come back empowered to be more efficient at work.


[01:07:10] Cathy Cooke: Great point. I find that you make less mistakes too, so you spend less time in the future going back and fixing your mistakes. I also wanted to mention another one that I just thought of. Have you ever heard of the website called Fitness Blender?


[01:07:26] Ashley James: No, I don't think I have.


[01:07:29] Cathy Cooke: It's fantastic. This is something that I recommend to almost all the clients I work with. Fitness Blender is a website by a younger, married couple that it's just all about fitness, and they've got something like over 400 exercise videos and they're totally free. You can choose anywhere from like four minutes to over an hour. You can narrow down your search. So you say, I've got four minutes, I want to do cardio, or I want to do strength training or I want to do stretching. You plug that in, and all the videos come up that meet that criteria.


[01:08:07] Ashley James: Very cool.


[01:08:09] Cathy Cooke: It's really cool. I find that it's really effective for that person that's like, “I don't have time to work out. I can't do it.” It's like, “Okay, got four minutes to do this exercise, and you can do it right in your office.” They don't take up a lot of space. They are designed just for this purpose—for somebody that's busy and just needs to get something really quick. I have found huge benefits for people doing this throughout the day because again, everything we just talked about, that lymph movement, that oxygenation, moving your joints around, becoming more productive. So that's another great tip for people.


[01:08:46] Ashley James: Awesome. So you work in a low EMF environment, and you move your body throughout the day. Now it is getting close to when you go outside throughout the day, at least a few times during the day, so that your eyeballs get sunlight filtering through, so you get that signal to your brain, hey, it's now later in the day, so the brain starts lowering the cortisol, getting ready to make some melatonin. So now you're coming up towards dinner. What health habits do you have in the late afternoon/evening for improving sleep?


[01:09:22] Cathy Cooke: Late afternoon/evening, I start to consider toning back the liquids a little bit. One, I don't like to have a lot of fluids in me when I'm eating my meals because I find that it really dilutes your stomach acid quite a bit. I noticed that significantly, so I try to not eat or not drink anything at least about a half an hour before I'm going to eat, especially dinner, because it just really affects my digestion.

As well as we're starting to get to the time where if you're drinking liquids later in the evening, you could get up in the middle of the night to have to pee, and we don't want that to happen either. Of course, I don't actually drink any caffeine. My body just does not like it. It does not metabolize it well. But for people that do drink caffeine, be it coffee or tea or, God forbid, sodas or whatever it is. We're hoping that you stop that before noon or at least earlier in the day, especially if you're someone that has sleeping issues. You really need to be careful about the caffeine intake, and you also need to consider things like cocoa that have naturally occurring caffeine.

So having chocolate later in the day, I try not to do because that little bit of caffeine can keep me up. And then when I'm making the choice of what to eat for dinner—we've talked a lot about blood sugar, and I have found over the past year, so I've really been toying with if I reduce my protein intake in the evening and increase some of my complex carbohydrates, how does that impact my sleep? I have found that it improves my sleep, that if I keep the protein, specifically if I'm doing things like animal products, if I keep them to the earlier meal of the day and focus more on a plant based meal or plant based protein in the evening, that actually helps me. I found that to actually be the case for a lot of people.

All of the amino acids in the protein can actually be a little bit too stimulating for us at night, and the carbohydrates for that serotonin is effective and important for sleep. It's not going to be for everybody, but I found a significant amount of people actually do benefit from being a bit cognizant of that. Choosing what I have for my dinner is going to impact that quite a bit. So if I was going to go out and have a big steak for dinner, it's almost always that I'm not going to have good deep sleep that night. So that's a consideration.

Of course, keeping in mind foods that are inflammatory in and of themselves. As a nutritionist, I'm not eating a lot of processed foods. I'm sure you're not either. But some of your listeners might be saying, “Oh, well, if I have a little pasta, what's that going to hurt, or if I throw a little cheese on that pasta? It's just a little bit, it's not going to be that big of a deal.”

But if you're somebody that has an inflammatory response to wheat or to dairy or whatever the food is, you got to be cognizant of that, and be kind to your body. You got to remember that that bite of cheese or that pasta lasts about 20 seconds, and then you're up the rest of the night. Is that really worth it? It wouldn't be worth it to me.

So keeping in your mind about what those trigger foods are for you or what those foods that are inflammatory are for you—all processed, packaged foods are going to be inflammatory for everybody, so we need to reduce that. We need to consider a whole food diet especially in the evening. Keep in mind what those trigger foods are for you, and keep it a whole food based approach. That's kind of what dinner and late evening looks like.


[01:13:56] Ashley James: Very cool. My husband, when I met him and he's originally from Seattle, which is like the caffeine capitol of the world, and he would brag that he could drink a venti coffee and fall asleep. Now I have always been sensitive to caffeine, so if I drink caffeine past 1:00 PM, I am up all night. It just wrecks me.

And so it really surprised me that he would opt to drink coffee at night, or do you know if you watch those TV shows where they're getting together for coffee, and I'm like, “What are you doing? Who does that? Who drinks coffee at night?” Or someone's like, “Let's have some tea,” and you know, it's black tea, and you're just like,”What's going on? In what world do people caffeinate at night? This is crazy.”

But, yeah, sure enough he can drink a venti and fall asleep. Now we're coming up on our 11 years together, and we've discovered in the last year through playing with cutting out coffee, which was something very big for someone from Seattle to do, that he used to wake up about four or five in the morning, very early in the morning, regardless of whether he went to bed at 10 or one in the morning. He would always wake up, and he rarely could go back to sleep. And so he would just start his day that way with some more coffee.

But when he took coffee out of his life, he was sleeping in. For him, sleeping in is like, “Oh, my gosh!” The sun has risen, it’s seven in the morning, and he would roll over and be well rested—he couldn't believe it. I did some digging and discovered that caffeine has a half-life that lasts about 18 hours. It'll stay in our body for that long. And for some people it doesn't affect them falling asleep. Like he said, he never really felt energized from coffee, whereas I get very jittery and very energized. He didn't really feel like a lot of energy from it.

But what it does for some people is it disrupts them on the other end of sleep. So it disrupts them from falling into the second wave of deep sleep, and it disrupts them late at night or really early in the morning, and so they'll wake up. Some people can fall asleep with caffeine in their system, but it will make them have a lot later sleep that's less restorative, and then they'll wake up earlier feeling not 100% restored.

It was bad. It took him over a week. It felt like about two weeks to be able to get coffee out of his system. He had caffeine headaches for days because if you've been on caffeine for many years and then you get off of it, suddenly it actually inflames the blood vessels in the brain. So you feel almost like a migraine. Caffeine headaches are pretty severe, and so it's best to slowly reduce the coffee down over time, and then wean yourself off of it.

But he was hardcore. He just said, “Okay, that's it. Let's try it without.” And so that was very interesting that he now can get very deep, healing, restorative sleep because he doesn't drink coffee throughout the day. For me, that chocolate thing, if I had even one piece of chocolate at night, I would notice that my sleep was disrupted. That's really frustrating because I eat organic vegan Stevia sweetened, no sugar added chocolate. It seems to be the healthiest dark chocolate in the world, but it's still very stimulating.

Alcohol is another thing. I've had an HPATH on the show share that there's a way in which you can monitor your body's stress levels called heart rate variability, and they find that when you even drink one serving of alcohol, for 24 hours, our stress levels are heightened. Our body is in a state of stress for 24 hours after even consuming just one alcoholic beverage. Some people think that they need to unwind and drink alcohol to help them sleep, but it in fact severely disrupts their sleep.

So alcohol, chocolate, sugar, caffeine. Another thing which I found really interesting—an old school naturopath taught me that white rice consumed after noon or in the evenings can cause nightmares.


[01:18:55] Cathy Cooke: Interesting.


[01:18:57] Ashley James: Yeah. So really being responsible for choosing the glycemic-friendly foods. If you're going to eat starches, like if you're going to eat rice, make sure it's brown rice, for example. It has more fiber. It breaks down slower in the body. Choosing the least amount of processed things possible because the second you process something into a flour to make pasta, for example, you're removing fiber and thus it converts quickly to sugar.

I like that you talked about eating those complex carbs in the evening to help with the serotonin. Some people find that if they eat some sweet potato, for example, in the evening it helps them sleep. And some people find that if they eat some scrambled eggs as an evening snack, like one or two scrambled eggs, that the fat and the protein helped them sleep. So you have to play around and figure out which one is going to be more supportive for you.

[01:20:03] Cathy Cooke: Right. That's why it's really hard to make blanket recommendations across the board because everybody responds differently. For me, adding protein into my diet when I was a hypersomniac back in the day was very, very helpful to help me be more energized. But I also went to the extreme end and was just eating protein all the time and found that that wasn't helpful either.

It's going take a lot of trial and error for everybody individually to find out what the best macro nutrient balance is. I often do suggest that people get a blood sugar monitor for themselves, and oftentimes your doctor will give you one for free because the strips are actually what's so expensive, as you probably know. That's where they get you. But you can get a blood sugar monitor, and then use it for a couple of weeks just to get a sense of how your body is responding to different foods in different macronutrient combinations. It can be really insightful. Something that you've been doing forever, like a piece of chicken and some broccoli and some rice at dinner, checking your blood sugar 30 minutes, an hour, two hours afterwards to see what kind of fluctuations you get will really help you dial in the certain foods that work for you and the certain macronutrient combinations that are going to be the best for you regarding sleep and everything else, too.


[01:21:42] Ashley James: And that's why hiring a health coach like yourself or like me helps people. Because sometimes this is too much. Like, “Oh, my gosh. You want me to figure out the way food combinations are going to support my sleep and my blood sugar?” If you talk to a health coach, especially if it's so overwhelming, they help you to bring it back down into something that's manageable and fun and easy to make these little adjustments over time, so that you can really see big results.

I interviewed Dr. William Davis, the author of Wheat Belly—that was Episode 167, highly recommend listening to it. He's a cardiologist that reverses heart disease naturally with diet and some supplementation and lifestyle, and that's his suggestion as well, exactly what you said. He said 100% of the population should own a glucometer, we should take this out of this idea that only diabetics need one—everyone needs one because if we could monitor ourselves like an hour or two hours after eating each meal, we could see how our body is responding to that meal. “Oh, wow. I really am not responding well to that gluten-free pizza. Maybe that shouldn't be something that I eat on a regular basis,” or “Oh, wow. I can't believe how well I'm responding to those sweet potatoes and baked beans.”

So you play around with it, but it's in addition to how you're feeling. That's why we want to create a food mood journal and see “How was my sleep? How am I feeling?” But then getting some tests and something that you can do at home that allows you outside of yourself to go, “Wow, this is really affirming how I'm feeling about these meals.” I think that sometimes we talk ourselves or we stop listening to our bodies if we really want to keep the caffeine or alcohol or sugar. Like, “I really like that chocolate fudge sundae.” And we justify it like you said—“Oh, it's just a little bit of cheese and pasta. It doesn't really matter.”

But then our sleep keeps suffering. And if we use a glucometer to see how we're doing, then it'll really be that great reality check that allows us to go, “You know what, I'm not going to make excuses anymore because my sleep is more important than that 30 seconds of the food in my mouth.”

And then another great thing you can do with the glucometer is if you have a disrupted sleep in the middle of the night, take your blood sugar in the middle night and see what's going on because some people have really low blood sugar or really high blood sugar, which on both ends can wake us up in the middle of the night.

Taking blood sugar right before bed, in the middle night if we do wake up, and first thing in the morning really allows us to get that great picture of what's going on beause we might discover we have an underlying blood sugar problem that we can catch really early on and then correct before it manifests as a disease.


[01:24:48] Cathy Cooke: Great points. I totally agree. And I oftentimes, with somebody who's got some really severe sleeping problems and they're waking up in the middle of the night, I suggest that they often will have a snack right by their bed so that they can eat that in the middle of the night. Of course that sounds maybe counter intuitive. We shouldn't be eating in the middle of the night, and we shouldn't have to eat in the middle of the night. But until we can, peel back all those layers of the onion and address each underlying issue. You might just need some band-aids right now, and that's okay. We want you to sleep through the night.

In my work, what I do with clients, sleep is number one. You can have hormonal issues. You can have diabetes. You can have lupus. You can have whatever it is. But we have to get you sleeping before anything else can happen, before anything else can start to repair in the body, because if you're not sleeping, the body is going to be unable to address everything else that's happening.

So in the meantime, when somebody is having some chronic sleep issues, they might have to have a little bit of snack in the middle of the night. That might mean a little bit of collagen and a tiny bit of diluted orange juice or a handful of nuts—there's many different options. To have that available so that somebody can fall back asleep when they're having that blood sugar crash, and then over time, we are addressing all the rest of the issues, so that we don't need that anymore.


[01:26:31] Ashley James: Brilliant. I love it. During my pregnancy, my naturopath said I needed to eat some protein in the middle of the night, and that did seem to help, so I like it. We need to figure out what's going on right now and then address it, and know that in the long term, we're going to get ourselves back to a place where we won't need it anymore.

That's the thing with these broad health statements—never go to bed on a full stomach, or never eat food before bed. I know a naturopath that says people with blood sugar issues should eat some scrambled eggs right before bed. That really helps some people, but some people, it doesn't. So we have to experiment. That's where working with someone like you comes in, where we can experiment, but at the same time bring the science and the experience.

So it's the evening time for you. You've eaten a meal that's more plant-based, more complex carbohydrates, that you choose not to have the animal protein because you find that that works best for you. When do you put on your blue blocking glasses?


[01:27:46] Cathy Cooke: Great question. Perfect segue. When the sun goes down, they're usually on, but of course, that's going to depend on where you live. I used to live in Alaska and that wouldn't work because it's 24 hours of daylight during the summer, and the sun goes down at about 4:00 PM in the winter.

So typically, if we live in more southern latitudes, it's a good rule of thumb to have the bluelight blocking glasses on when the sun goes down. Otherwise we say about two hours before you want to be asleep is a good rule of thumb. There are more research happening out there about just filtering the bluelight from any of our artificial lighting, any of our light bulbs whatsoever, or our screens because this is what we call junk light.

It's just like junk food. It's junk light. It's predominantly blue. It's not the full spectrum that we get from the sun. This does have a lot of impact on our mitochondria, which can result in a number of health symptoms. Are you familiar with the work of Dr. Jack Kruse?


[01:29:01] Ashley James: I am not.  


[01:29:02] Cathy Cooke: Fascinating individual. He's a neurosurgeon. He's heavily into light, bluelight, and EMF exposure. That could be a good resource for your listeners to check out. He can be very overwhelming because, of course, he's a neurosurgeon, and some of the terminology he uses can be really daunting and over your head. But he's done a significant amount of research into the topic of the mitochondria and how the mitochondria is affected by our light, bluelight and EMF exposure. When you see interviews with him, for example, anytime he's on a computer or a screen or under artificial light, he's at least wearing glasses that filter out the blue component even if it's in the middle of the day.

I have actually found that to be pretty effective. Dr. Mercola does a similar thing. When you're working on the computer and having not full on bluelight blocking glasses , but some tent to block out the blue light no matter what time of day it is. And then in the evening, we put on the darker ones that are going to filter much more of that light. If you want to go outside, of course, you can go outside anytime of the day and not have any glasses whatsoever because, of course, you're getting that natural light, and you're getting the full spectrum—all of the colors that are in sun.

So even though the sun does have blue, it's got green and yellow and violet and red and orange, and those are all excellent. So you can be outside any time of day and you don't need the glasses, but pretty much any time you're inside, the lights are on, the computers are on, having some kind of protection for your eyes, and then the darker glasses about two hours before you want it to be asleep is what I've found to be the most effective thing for most people.