Learn True Health with Ashley James

On Learn True Health, Ashley James interviews today's most successful natural healers. Learn True Health was created for YOU, the health enthusiast. If you are passionate about organic living or struggling with health issues and are looking to gain your health naturally, our holistic podcast is what you have been looking for! Ashley James interviews Naturopathic Doctors and expert holistic health care practitioners to bring you key holistic health information, results based advice and new natural steps you can take to achieve true health, starting NOW! If you are sick and tired of being sick and tired, if you are fed up with prescription drug side effects, if you want to live in optimal health but you don't know where to start, this podcast is for you! If you are looking for ACTIONABLE advice from holistic doctors to get you on your path to healing, you will enjoy the wisdom each episode brings. Each practitioner will leave you with a challenge, something that you can do now, and each day, to measurably improve your health, energy, and vitality. Learn about new healing diet strategies, how to boost your immune system, balance your hormones, increase your energy, what supplements to take and why and how to experience your health and stamina in a new way. Ashley James from Learn True Health interviews doctors like Dr. Joel Wallach, Dr. Andrew Weil, Dr. Deepak Chopra, Dr. Oz, Dr. Joseph Mercola and Dr. Molly Niedermeyer on Naturopathic Medicine, Homeopathy, Supplements, Meditation, Holistic Health and Alternative Health Strategies for Gaining Optimal Health.
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Now displaying: June, 2021
Jun 21, 2021

Dr. Brownstein's study that he published about his findings with treating patients with Covid-19 can be found here:

And the PDF can be downloaded here:

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Dr. David Brownstein on Proven Effective and Natural Protocols for Respiratory and Covid Viruses



  • Importance of hormones to overall health
  • Importance of maintaining adequate iodine levels
  • Natural therapy for COVID
  • How to maintain a properly functioning immune system


In this episode, we have Dr. David Brownstein. Dr. David Brownstein is a family physician that specializes in using vitamins, minerals, herbs, and natural hormones, and utilizes nutritional therapies. He shares how he went from being a doctor practicing conventional medicine to becoming a holistic doctor. He talks about how he has helped his patients recover from COVID and gives some tips on strengthening our immune system so we can have a good immune response to stressors or illnesses.


Hello, true health seeker and welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health podcast. You’re going to love Dr. David Brownstein who has a very interesting story that he shares right off the bat at the beginning of the show. I don’t want to spoil it, so you’re going to have to listen to it because it really blew my mind. But his story is what got him into holistic medicine, and holistic medicine is where he ended up with a bunch of patients in his clinic who had COVID. He used the same tools he’s been using for several decades, and here we are with this amazing study that he published and the FTC coming after him. Just so much crazy information, I’m so excited for you to hear today’s interview.

I hope you listen to the last interview I did with Dr. Paul Thomas, and I hope you also listen to the next interview I’m going to be publishing. It’s a three-part series. It just so happens I did these interviews and I thought they really go well together. Even though it’s similar information, it’s also very different. 

This doctor used a more holistic natural approach to helping his patients boost their immune systems and fight viral infections with great success. And then the next interview I’m going to be publishing one of the things we do talk about is his 1800 person study using pharmaceutical drugs very successfully at supporting the body’s ability to fight this specific viral infection that we are facing at the moment. 

Please find the Learn True Health Podcast on BitChute as well as LBRY. And you can just search for BitChute, search for LBRY and find the Learn True Health podcast. You can follow me there, you can follow me on iTunes, or most other podcast directories. But if I become censored because of the information that my guests are sharing, I just want you to know that you can find me in these other places. You can find the podcast in these other places where they still believe in freedom of speech.

You can also find us, our whole community, in fact. Join the Learn True Health Facebook group. It is a fantastic community of very supportive, holistic-minded people, and I just love the community we’ve built there. So you can come and join us there. I don’t have any plans to switch the group to another platform, but with censorship and with holistic practitioners being de-platformed these days and holistic reporters and podcasters being de-platformed, we might have to at some point. So hopefully, all this content is protected by freedom of speech. I’m just here to help holistic doctors and really successful doctors, successful in that their procedures are successfully helping people to gain health.

I’m creating a platform for them to give you the information you need so you can make great health choices for yourself. I’m so excited to continue to do that, and I hope and pray that everything we do here, we get to continue doing. It does concern me that the people I’ve been following have been taken off of platforms like Facebook and YouTube. It does concern me, and these are people who are also sharing similar information.

So, I hope that we can all stay sound, healthy, and safe, and also be able to continue to learn and grow from all these wonderful experts and guests. But do follow us at places like BitChuteLBRY, and our Facebook group. And you could also join the email list by going to and the pop-up pops up, just put your email in there. I do not spam. I send very few emails, but you will get notifications from us should there be any news that’s worthy for you to know about.

Thank you so much for being a listener and sharing this podcast with those you care about. Today’s episode not only touches on COVID and supporting the immune system, it also talks about heart health, hormone health, and how hormones directly affect heart health. So share this episode with those who care about that may have those concerns as well and want to learn more about that. Come to Learn True Health Facebook group after listening to this and share what you think. This episode really blew my mind, so I’m really excited to start a conversation with you guys about today’s interview. Have a fantastic rest of your day.


[00:04:59] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is episode 462. I am so excited for today’s guest. We are in for such a treat. We have Dr. David Brownstein with us who’s an MD, board-certified family physician, and you got into natural and alternative therapies. I’m always fascinated because medical school does not necessarily like the holistic approach and doesn’t necessarily teach it or focus on it. I’ve met a lot of MDs that their training kind of led them to [inaudible 00:05:43] it or almost look down upon holistic or alternative methods.

I would love to know just jumping into this conversation, and I’m very excited because you have some books that I know my listeners would absolutely love. Your latest one, A Holistic Approach to Viruses, which of course, isn’t that just the big buzz for the last year? But you also have Iodine: Why You Need It, Why You Can’t Live Without It. I mean, we can have you on again for an entire episode about that.

You have a book specializing in vitamin B12 for your health, which, again, I would love to have you on multiple times because every book you have, I’m like, oh my gosh, that’s an entire interview. The list goes on and on. The Guide to a Gluten-free DietThe Guide to a Dairy-free DietThe Soy Deception, I mean, I have a feeling we’re going to be learning a lot from you. And then Ozone: The Miracle Therapy. I have listed all of your books, they’re all very interesting.

But what I really want to know just jumping into our interview today is what happened as a medical doctor that had you go into that holistic realm, that had you go, I really want to help people, maybe natural therapies instead of just jumping to a drug right away? What happened as a doctor that had you go this route?


[00:07:09] Dr. David Brownstein: Oh, Ashley, thanks for having me on. And I didn’t start off as a holistic physician, I’ve turned into one. You know why? My career in medicine started as a little boy when I used to go to the doctor for severe asthma and just decided I want to be a doctor and help people. So I geared my undergraduate training at the University of Michigan for going to med school. I went to Wayne State University School of Medicine, and I wanted to model myself after my family doctor.

I didn’t come from a holistic household. We didn’t take vitamins in our household. We didn’t do anything holistic. We went to the doctor when we were sick, we took whatever they gave us. We didn’t question anything in my household. That’s what I thought I wanted to do in medicine. So I finished a family practice residency and started practicing conventional medicine as I was taught in my training.

My turning point came around six months into that when, for a couple of nights, I just lost sleep for an unknown reason and became anxious after losing sleep for an unknown reason this anxiety percolated up in me. I remember getting ready to go for work the next day after the sleepless nights and my wife, Allison, was getting ready to go to work. I blurted out to her, “I don’t want to be a doctor anymore.” It’s the first thing I ever said to her about it. 

Now, she has known me since I was 18. I had $100,000 in student loans. I always talked about being a physician, this was all I wanted to be. I want to be a family doctor. So she says to me, what’s wrong? And I said I’m not really helping people. I’m just prescribing all these drugs that don’t really work. I’m prescribing more drugs to treat the side effects from the first drugs, and they’re not getting better. I just said to her, I can’t do this for the next 30 or 40 years. She said, Well, why don’t you do another residency? And I said, I’m not doing that again, one was enough.

What was happening in my life at that time was my father was really sick. He had his first heart attack at age 40, he had a second heart attack at 42. Over the next 20 years. He had two bypass surgeries, he had numerous angioplasties, he was on 12 medications for heart disease, cholesterol, hypertension, and diabetes. My dad had suffered from continuous angina over a 20+ year time period. Every day he was having chest pain, it was getting worse. If he did any mild activity, he would start popping nitroglycerin pills like they were candy. 

We were all just waiting for the phone call that he had died because he looked so bad. He was pale and pasty. My dad wasn’t the best patient either. He could eat like the best of them, he was overweight, he smoked, and never exercised much.

Those sleepless nights came, I didn’t really know what was going on. I go to work that day and I happen to see a patient. The patient is friends with Allison and I. We’ve gone out and his wife works with Allison. He was bothering me to meet his chiropractor. At that time of my medical career, I never met a chiropractor, I never went to one, never knew what they did. In my medical training, I was taught to not send patients to chiropractors, they were dangerous, and that was it. So I never sent a patient to a chiropractor, and I used to actively tell them don’t go because they were dangerous, even though I never knew what the philosophy was, never knew what they did.

But the patient, Michael, was bothering me to meet his chiropractor, and the chiropractor really helped him out in much more so than back pain through taking some supplements and things like that. So in my anxiety and my lack of sleep state, I took the phone number from him. I remember I called the chiropractor at lunchtime, we set up a dinner meeting for a couple of days the following week. Tuesday comes around for dinner with the chiropractor, and I tell Allison when I get home from work, I’m going to cancel. I don’t want to waste my time with a chiropractor. She said that would be rude, you need to go because you made this date. She said, be nice.

I met the chiropractor, his name was Dr. Robert Radtke. He was using nutritional therapies and he was talking functional biochemistry to me much more so than I knew, way more than I knew at that time. He brought a book Healing with Nutrition by Jonathan Wright who was an allopathic physician. I read that book. I took the book home. First off, Dr. Radtke and I hit it off. He was much more functional biochemistry than I did. He was very smart. He was telling me stories of using nutrition to heal his patients and to help them along. Either Dr. Radtke was lying to me, or there were other therapies out there that I wasn’t exposed to.

So I took that book home. I read that book until late at night. The next morning, I called my dad up before I went to work and said, I want you to come in the office, I want to do a few blood tests on you. I checked two blood tests on him based on talking to Dr. Radtke and what I read in that book—his thyroid hormone levels and his testosterone levels. A few days later, I got his blood work back. His testosterone levels were below detectable limits, they weren’t even reading on the lab test. No one had bothered to check that. His thyroid levels were in the reference range but in the very low part of the reference range. No one had bothered to check anything but a TSH before. So I checked his other thyroid levels of T3, T4, and thyroid antibodies.

So based on that lab work, I started reading and I put my dad on two things. I put him on natural testosterone, and natural thyroid hormone, desiccated thyroid hormone. Within seven days, his 20+ year history of angina melted away and never returned. Stopped using nitros. He actually called me that day. He said, I want you to know, I haven’t used the nitro today. I’m like, why? And he said, because I don’t have chest pain, it seems like maybe it’s going away.

I followed up with him the next couple of days, that was gone, never to return. Instead of looking pale and pasty, he started to look pink on his face and looked healthier. Thirty days later, I checked his cholesterol levels, which were stuck in the 300s on cholesterol-lowering medication. Without changing any of his bad habits, his cholesterol fell below 200. All these inflammatory markers improved his blood work. 

Once I saw the changes in my dad, I decided that’s what I wanted to do in medicine. I decided I was going to be a holistic doctor. I didn’t really know what it was, but I knew I couldn’t do this in a conventional office. I went to the partner of the practice and said, I need to leave. He said, why, you’re going to be a partner in a few months? I said, I want to do holistic medicine. He goes, what’s that? I’m like, I’m not really sure yet, but I’m going to figure it out. He said, well, why don’t you do it here? I said, No, I can’t do it here. I need my own office.

So I left and that’s how it started. Since I treated my dad with natural testosterone, natural thyroid hormone and he made such a dramatic improvement, every patient that I’ve seen for the last 27, 28 years has been given a full thyroid, full hormonal workup, and full nutritional evaluation. That’s how it all began. The first book I wrote was The Miracle of Natural Hormones in 1998. I’ve featured my father in that book because of the response he had. Overcoming thyroid disorders came shortly after that because of the response I had with him and seeing all the thyroid effects.

One thing led to another and it was the best thing I did in medicine. Now I know biochemistry much better. You learn it in medical school, you learn it in undergraduate school, but you don’t learn to utilize it in your practice. You learn it to pass the test and then you forget it. Now, I’m studying biochemistry every night. I’ve got biochemistry charts up in my office at home. My goal is to support a patient’s biochemistry, which leads to support for the immune system and leads to better health. It was the best thing I did in medicine. Medicine went from being I can’t do this for the next 30 to 40 years to I’m almost 30 years into it and hope I got another 30 ahead of me to do it. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.


[00:16:20] Ashley James: Now, the Center for Holistic Medicine in West Bloomfield, Michigan, that’s your clinic?


[00:16:28] Dr. David Brownstein: That’s mine. I left his office and that’s what I formed when I left that partner’s office. And then lo and behold, about eight years later, I liked him. He and I kept playing tennis and I kept bugging him about, hey, Rick, this is a better way to practice medicine, this is way better. I finally convinced him eight years later, he just walked away from this practice and joined me. There are three doctors in the practice now. We have a nurse practitioner and a physician assistant. We have a busy holistic practice.


[00:17:00] Ashley James: I love it. I’ve been in this space studying intensely holistic medicine for 10 years. Applying it to my own life first and then I became a health coach and I’ve been working with being mentored by Naturopathic physicians for the last 10 years, I have never heard of heart disease being caused by and also then cured by balancing testosterone and thyroid. I mean, it makes sense, but I have no idea what the process is. Why is it that his thyroid was out of balance, his testosterone was out of balance, and he had heart disease because of it? Why is that?


[00:17:48] Dr. David Brownstein: Well, it’s a good question. It took me some research after I saw the improvement he did, so I started researching all these hormones. What I found was that having a balanced hormonal system is just essential to health. If you look at the hormonal pathways of the body, the adrenal and sex hormones like testosterone, estrogen, DHA, and progesterone, they’re all produced in the ovaries in women, testes in men, and adrenal glands in men and women. We all have the same pathways. The precursor substance to all this is cholesterol. You can’t make hormones in those glands without adequate amounts of cholesterol.

So here, my dad, he’s got this high cholesterol in the 300s, and he’s got testosterone levels of zero, basically. Now, I checked his other hormone levels like DHA and pregnenolone, they’re all in the same pathways. It’s kind of like driving from town A to town B to town C in order. Your hormones are made in a certain order, one follows the other, and that’s the way it is. If you go from the beginning, cholesterol is really the substrate that fuels this pathway.

So here’s my dad with a cholesterol of 350 or so and he can’t make hormones. They’re all near zero when I checked them all as I started learning about one after another and I put him on small amounts of all of them. Why wasn’t he making hormones? Well, you need adequate thyroid hormone to stimulate that pathway. You need vitamin A as a cofactor to make that pathway go. You need magnesium and some B vitamins to make that pathway go.

So my dad was lacking a lot of basic nutrition like most of the patients that I see are, he was lacking thyroid hormone, and he couldn’t make his hormones. If you look at the literature for heart disease and what causes atherosclerosis, hypothyroidism is known to cause it. That’s been known since the late 1800s. Low testosterone has been known to cause heart disease. Much of the research with that has been out of Europe, but that’s been known for over 50 years.

Maybe I got a little lucky with my dad, but when I put them on those first two things and I went and researched some more, how does that make his angina better? And there was tons of research showing this is why his arteries were blocking up. Either the underlying cause or a major part of the underlying cause of what was causing his problems.

After I treated him with those two things and then I started adding DHA, pregnenolone, and other things in there as I found what he was lacking, but he never had another day of angina in his life. He was able to lose weight without changing his bad habits. Once I saw the changes in him, I knew that’s what I wanted to do in medicine. That’s been my passion, that’s been my drive. It served my purpose and it served my patients’ purpose.


[00:21:06] Ashley James: This is what I want for every listener, to have a doctor on their team that acts like Sherlock Holmes. I want a doctor that questions and goes, what’s going on? Let’s look deeper and understand this. The fact that they never ran these panels on your dad, that they were only looking. It’s like the iceberg story. They’re only looking at the tip of the iceberg. They’re like, oh, heart disease. This is my frustration with allopathic medicine is it’s reductionistic.

He has angina, let’s look at the heart, and they’re not looking at the body as a whole. Hello, we’re not looking at his thyroid, testosterone, or any of his nutrient levels, right?


[00:21:49] Dr. David Brownstein: Well, you’re right. He has angina so he’s got chest pain when he does any activity, right? He walks up a flight of stairs, whatever. Walking up a flight of stairs or walking sometimes a few steps, so you give him nitroglycerin which dilates the arteries and the chest pain goes away. 

Well, does he have a deficiency of nitroglycerin? I mean, it’s kind of the reductionist model of conventional medicine. But really, what my father had was no testosterone, his hormonal biosynthetic pathways were not working because he was lacking thyroid hormone, he was lacking vitamin A, he was lacking some B vitamins. Once we corrected those things and supported him with small amounts of hormones, he made a dramatic change in his health. It was really something. 

I still think about that today, that got me going in the right pathway for medicine. He was my first patient. All patients are important. He was certainly probably the most important patient in my career.


[00:22:55] Ashley James: Of course, one of our parents would be, wouldn’t they? Now, you mentioned that you use desiccated thyroid hormone, and that surprised me because you were just newly introduced into holistic medicine. The training of an MD is to do more synthetic. Can you explain for the listener what desiccated thyroid hormone is versus the synthetic that we’re so used to?


[00:23:21] Dr. David Brownstein: So I ended up writing a book on this, Overcoming Thyroid Disorders. In med school, I was trained to assess a patient’s thyroid status by drawing a TSH level, a thyroid-stimulating hormone level. That’s a hormone secreted from the pituitary gland in the brain, and that is released from the pituitary gland, hits your bloodstream, goes to the thyroid, and causes the thyroid gland to release thyroid hormone.

Now thyroid hormone released into the bloodstream from the thyroid gland feeds back into the pituitary gland. It was supposed to be this check and balance thing to see if you got enough thyroid hormone. If you don’t have enough thyroid hormone, you should produce more TSH. If you got too much thyroid hormone, you should produce less TSH.

There are multiple places where this pathway gets disrupted. Going back to basic biochemistry and physiology, and just basic biochemical pathways can help. Sherlock Holmes is a good example. As a physician, I’m always thinking, what’s the underlying cause of this? I don’t think this is sent from another planet if the patient’s sick for something. I mean, sometimes you can never figure out why they’re sick or why something happened and many times you can.

Again, I said that from the beginning that supporting the patient’s physiology and biochemistry is really what we should be doing in medicine. And the problem with relying on drug therapies, I mean, look, most of the first two years of medical school are spent on memorizing drugs, their mechanism of action, their half-life, and things like that. When you look at those mechanisms of action, nearly every drug prescribed out there is either poisoning an enzyme or blocking a receptor in the body. For the long term in our lives, I don’t think it’s a good idea to poison enzymes or black receptors. The enzymes and receptors are there for a reason.

Now, there are times to do that. If you’re having an acute heart attack, there are enzymes that might need to be poisoned and receptors might need to be blocked temporarily. But for long-term care, using those drugs doesn’t support physiology, doesn’t support biochemistry, it does the opposite—it disrupts it. 

I think that you also have to look at our health statistics in the US. We take more drugs than any Western people on the face of the planet. We spend more money on health care than any people on the face of the planet, and we have worse outcomes than every western country. We are bottom last in almost every outcome, and the only one we’re not bottom last, we’re second to last. That includes infant mortality, neonatal mortality, maternal mortality at birth, longevity in adult males and females, chronic health conditions—the list goes on and on. We have lousy health outcomes.

What’s happened with coronavirus epitomizes how we are as a country. It’s a sad state we’re in right now. I think the sad state is being driven from this lack of education of doctors that have no idea how to holistically approach anybody, no idea just basic holistic things like vitamin C, iodine, or I call these as basic things that people need and they can’t live without. I mean, 99.9% of physicians out there have no clue what these things do with the body, why they’re essential, how to assess them, and how to rectify deficiencies with us.

Unfortunately, we have 600,000 deaths from COVID because, in part, we’re an unhealthy country, and we’re unhealthy because we take too many of these drugs, and we’re unfollowing holistic lifestyle.


[00:27:24] Ashley James: It’s those with comorbidities that have the highest chances of passing away from a viral infection, let alone COVID. But also, in the United States, doctors are being told not to prescribe drugs to try to treat it or try to try to support it. There’s no treatment, you just have to manage the symptoms. It’s just very frustrating.


[00:27:52] Dr. David Brownstein: No, no, no, you can’t manage the symptoms either because there’s no prevention, treatment, or cure for COVID. Therefore, any mention or any action thereof falls in violation of the federal code. That was part of a letter that I received from the FTC for treating COVID patients, and we can get into that.


[00:28:12] Ashley James: We’re definitely going to get into that. I want to go there. The little voice in my head is going, we’re going to be delisted from Google from going there, but we have to, everyone has to understand you. We live in a country where the government—this is unheard of. I feel like I’m in an Orwell novel. 

The government is telling doctors how to practice medicine. It’s unconstitutional what’s going on right now, and it’s unethical. It’s unethical that your hands as a physician are being tied and unable to practice medicine. You’re allowed to practice medicine with other illnesses, why are you not allowed to treat the patient the best way you know-how with this one? It is so political and we are killing people, are harming people for politics.

So anyway, I’m just upset, scared, and angry for all the people who are suffering from this when good doctors like yourself could absolutely be saving lives but they’re being told not to. Isn’t that crazy? That sounds crazy. That sounds absolutely crazy, doesn’t it?


[00:29:25] Dr. David Brownstein: I’m 58 years old and I’ve never seen anything like this, never thought anything like this would occur. Orwellian is the right—what is that, an adjective? I’m not quite sure when I use it that way. But it is an Orwellian-like thing where big brother is just controlling everything. The message from the beginning of COVID was to hide in your basement and don’t leave your house except to get food until we have this vaccine. 

The message to physicians was you can’t treat it so don’t even try. What physicians were telling their patients from the beginning of COVID, well, nothing I can do. Stay home until you can’t breathe then go to the hospital. We all know what happened at the beginning of COVID. We were, as physicians, we didn’t know how to treat that disease, and we were treating it incorrectly. That’s not blaming anybody, it was a new illness. We really didn’t know what we were doing and we tried our best.

If you went to the hospital and you got ventilated a year ago—March, April, and May—you had an 88% chance of dying. It’s the first illness that I’ve seen that physicians were instructed not to do anything and wait for this vaccine. Waiting for the vaccine caused about 400,000 people to die for doing no therapy. Doctors who were doing therapy like me were silenced. You were warned, either you stop talking about it or you’re not going to be able to practice medicine. You have to make your Sophie’s Choice. I was seeing COVID patients from the beginning. Do you want to get into COVID right now?


[00:31:17] Ashley James: Yeah, let’s do it. Let’s go there. We’re already there, let’s go there.


[00:31:20] Dr. David Brownstein: So when COVID came, when those first reports out of China in December 2019, an atypical pneumonia. I think it was three or four patients who had this novel coronavirus with atypical pneumonia. I read those reports and I followed it from the beginning. I watched what happened in January and February, Spain and Italy, and Europe experienced it before we did. I knew it was coming. I mean, we all knew it was coming. And then the first cases in the US were in Seattle and California. That was the middle to the end of February of 2020.

COVID was clearly coming, and it was going to come across the country. We didn’t have any immunity to this. I remember I had a meeting with my staff at the end of February 2020 that the media headlines were awful. Everyone’s dying or gets COVID. Italy’s got bodies piled up on the streets. Spain was a mess. It’s only a matter of time until it comes here.

I have this meeting in my office at the end of the workday, the end of Thursday. The tension in the air was palpable. You could cut it with a knife, everybody’s scared. Everybody’s scared. In this meeting with the staff, I said, we got to clear the air here. We’re going to stay open through COVID, and my staff started to question me, why don’t we close? I said, why would we close? This is our time. 

I said, I’ve been practicing medicine for I think it was 27 years. I said, 26 years and a few months were for this. This is what I’ve been practicing for. I used to talk we, my partners and I. This is what we were practicing for, to get ready for something like this. This is a novel illness that conventional medicine has no clue what to do yet we do. I said, we’ve been treating flu-like illnesses with 30% of them being coronavirus infections, because it’s known that 30% of all influenza-like illnesses are coronavirus every year, with an approach to support the immune system. 

We’ve done the same therapy for over 25 years. The only thing we changed was if we learned something new, we added something new with little tweaks like that. But otherwise, it’s been the exact same therapy for over two decades. The therapy consisted of using high dose vitamins A, C, and D, iodine for four days, and nebulizing a dilute solution of hydrogen peroxide and iodine. 

What we found over the 25+ years was that our patients didn’t get hospitalized, didn’t get pneumonia, and didn’t die at anywhere near the rates of what’s reported every year from influenza-like illnesses during the flu season. Remember, in a light flu season, 20,000, 30,000, 40,000 Americans die. In a medium season, it’s up to 80,000 or so. And in a bad season, 100,000 to maybe 120,000 dies. A lot of people die from flu and flu-like illnesses every year in the wintertime in America. Our patients didn’t seem to do that, so this therapy was working.

The other part of the therapy was that if people got worse or they needed a little support, we would do intravenous vitamin C and hydrogen peroxide and then shots of ozone. That was the whole therapy in a nutshell. In the meeting with the staff, I reminded them, we’ve got therapy for this. The question came back to me, how do you know it’s going to work for this new strain of coronavirus? I said, I don’t know if it’s going to work, but why wouldn’t it work? It’s worked for every other strain over the last 25 years. 

I said, we have an immune system for a reason. I said, we’re going to support the immune system. The immune system is going to do fine with coronavirus if it’s got the right raw materials. That was my prediction. I said to them, look, I can’t guarantee anything because I haven’t seen this one before, but I don’t see any reason why we’re going to have trouble with this.

So I told the staff, hey, anyone who doesn’t want to work, you don’t have to work. I’m not going to force anybody to work through this. I said, I will work alone if I have to work alone. I said, I’m working until either I get sick or they won’t let me work, but our patients are going to need us more than ever. I said to them, this is our time. This is 27+ years of practicing medicine for this moment. This is our time to shine. That was the meeting. We had about 40%, 50% of our staff. As soon as it hit Michigan, it hit the Detroit area where I was. We were one of the four hotspots, in the beginning, was Michigan, New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts. It already started in Seattle where you are. We were one of the four hotspots when it moved to the western part of the US.

We were getting phone calls, people couldn’t breathe, the hospitals were filling up, the media headlines were fear, fear, fear, fear, fear. I’m not lying to you, I was scared at the beginning too. Here we were treating patients, we didn’t let them come into the office. We were treating them outside in March in Michigan. Let me tell you, March in Michigan isn’t pretty. It’s snow, sleet, ice, wind—it’s terrible. We were in snowstorms in full hazmat gear trudging out there with ice and stuff and having people put their arms out the windows of the car in freezing weather and giving them IVs. Then when you have them put their buttocks out the door as we were putting shots in the rear end.


[00:37:20] Ashley James: Of what, B vitamins?


[00:37:22] Dr. David Brownstein: Shots of ozone in the rear end. So look, truth be told I was scared for myself. I have a 65-degree scoliotic curve with lung involvement. I have severe asthma, which I used to be in multiple inhalers and wheezing all the time, and adopting a holistic lifestyle, that doesn’t bother me much at all. I play tennis without inhalers. The only time it bothers me is when I get a cold now. But I have severe asthma, I have lung involvement from scoliosis with half a lung missing on one side, and my normal pulse ox is low just because I don’t have a full two lungs like everybody else. And I have an immune system disorder that 1% of the population has.

My immune system disorder is lack of immunoglobulin A, which makes me more susceptible to viral illnesses.


[00:38:17] Ashley James: Oh my gosh, that’s three. That’s like the trifecta.


[00:38:20] Dr. David Brownstein: I went in the wrong profession for my body. Let me tell you, I was scared for myself as well. You know what, I eat well, I take my supplements, and I know what to do for viral flu-like illnesses. So we were treating people. I was reporting it online on my website. I was putting videos of patients as they recovered. Patients who couldn’t breathe, who called their doctor, the doctor told them there’s nothing to do. Take Tylenol or something or stay home until you can’t breathe in and go to the ER. Patients would come in with pulse ox in the 80s and low 80s, even upper 70s sometimes. They were trying to stay out of the ER. Everyone was scared because you were going to die it felt like if you went to the emergency room back then.

About a weekend into this, the fear starts to go away for me and for my partners because people are calling us back, I feel better. They particularly reported they felt better after nebulizing peroxide, and they felt better after getting an IV if they really were sick. Two weeks into it we feel no different than any other flu season except we’re swamped with too many patients. We’re going outside and we’re working after hours, we got cars lined up in the parking lot. We’re all taking turns going outside. We have an assembly line going to meet them outside.

We’re lining up 10 cars on the weekends. Three docs, nurse practitioner, my PA, we’d all show up and do our job. So a couple of weeks into it, we’ve got a pretty good plan, these patients are doing okay. I was doing interviews online, I was talking about it. I was saying what I thought was wrong with conventional medicine. But I titled each of these blog posts, there’s still hope out there because there was no hope from conventional media, there was just no hope. You got COVID, you were going to die. That was the feeling out there. We all remember this. I mean, it’s going to be seared into our psyche.

About two months, March-April, I’m posting my blog post number 30 or something. Out of the blue, I got a letter from Federal Trade Communication. I remember I walked in the door, it was Tuesday night, which is my late night, not only was it my late night at work, but we’re treating patients in the parking lot and it’s tiring. 

I’m walking in at 8:00 or 9:00 at night after getting there at 7:00 in the morning. I’m working as hard as I worked as a resident it felt like. I’m way older than I was back then, and so I’m exhausted. I walked in and my wife and daughter were at home. They’re looking at the computer, which I see as soon as I walk in. I’m like, what’s wrong? I thought someone died, from their face. She said, well, come in. I’m like, no, tell me what’s wrong and I’m standing there holding my bag and I got my coat on. She said, you got a letter from the Federal Trade Communication. I said, The FTC? She goes, yeah. I said, what they want? She goes, well, they’re ordering you 48 hours to remove all your blog posts about COVID or else. I said, what? I probably said a few words after that.


[00:41:53] Ashley James: I know, me too.


[00:41:55] Dr. David Brownstein: She said, you have 48 hours to remove it or you’re going to hear from the US Justice Department.


[00:42:03] Ashley James: What happened to freedom of speech?


[00:42:04] Dr. David Brownstein: I was speechless. I come in, my wife’s a lawyer.


[00:42:14] Ashley James: Oh, that’s handy.


[00:42:16] Dr. David Brownstein: So I said to her, maybe it’s time to retire. She said, you’re not retiring over this letter. This is stupid. It’s ridiculous. You’re doing a good thing. You should get an award. You don’t deserve this and you didn’t do anything wrong. If you want to retire because you want to retire, let’s talk about that. But you’re not retiring over this letter. This is stupid.

She talked me off the cliff because I told my mother, I did tell my elderly mother this story. If the FTC released a press release about me and I thought the local papers were going to pick it up, and I didn’t want my mom to read in the papers. I told my mother, I was proud to be the first in the family to have a federal agency after them. I didn’t cheat anybody, I didn’t steal any money. I didn’t hurt anybody. I was doing my job.

When we got the letter, we read it a bunch of times. We pulled everything down off the internet the next day. So in there, I got 20 years of stuff and we just took it all down. It was the last blog post I did, which was in April of last year. I’ve been blogging for 25+ years.

So I was keeping track of the patients I was treating with COVID and we’re doing the same therapy. Out of the first 107 patients, we had a couple of hospitalizations and no deaths, when we should have had—I can’t remember the numbers, they’re in my peer-reviewed paper I published on this. We should have had 8 or 10 hospitalizations and 5, 6 deaths, something like that, from the numbers that were occurring at that time.

My wife, being a lawyer, started communicating with the FTC, the gentleman who wrote the letter. He said, in this original letter, they went through all my blogs and they spent a lot of time bullet pointing what they said was inaccurate information about COVID because they kept repeating the line, “There’s no prevention, treatment, or cure for COVID, therefore, any mention thereof falls in violation of federal code…” and it’s a long number. I’ve been cataloging these patients that we were treating, I knew we had 107 patients at that time when that letter came in. In that letter, they said, “because there are no clinical studies indicating what you say is true, there’s no prevention, treatment, or cure for COVID, therefore, any mention thereof falls in violation.”

I called a few friends and one of them said to me, if they want a study, why don’t you give them a study. You’ve been treating patients for two months. I retrospectively reviewed the data of my patients that were treated. Since I wasn’t blogging, I had some time on my hands that I’m not used to. I put together a study of 107 patients, case series study, and I got it accepted for peer review. It was peer-reviewed three times. I got it published in a peer-reviewed journal. 

When it was published, my wife sent a letter to the FTC saying, well, you said there are no clinical studies, here’s one. She attached it and said, we want to publish this on our website without commentary, just publish the study. And they said, no, this is not a randomized control trial.


[00:46:00] Ashley James: Now they change the story.


[00:46:03] Dr. David Brownstein: Now they changed it. So here we are at the beginning of an illness that’s killing hundreds of thousands of people. There’s no randomized control trial at that point of anything related to COVID because who could do it? You can’t randomize a trial. And I wasn’t going to randomize anybody to receiving therapy and not receiving therapy. Now when I thought it was going to help them. That’s unethical. I should go to jail for that if I did that, and there’s no way I could sleep another night, another minute in my life if I did something like that.

But anyway, there were no randomized control trials at that point, there were only clinical observations. I wasn’t hiding in my basement. I wasn’t closing my office. I was on the frontlines treating people. We get the letter back from the FTC saying, no, not a randomized control trial. That was the last contact we had with them.

We kept doing our thing. Now, we’re over 400 patients. Again, we have a couple of hospitalizations, no deaths from any of our patients related to it. The therapy still works. The consequence of the powers that be telling physicians there’s no therapy and you can’t do anything for your patients and just wait for the vaccine was we had over 400,000 people dead before the vaccine was even started. I believe those were the numbers. When this post mortem is written on coronavirus, it’s going to be ugly.

One other side to that story was, so here I published the study, FTC won’t let me put it on my website. So we hired a first amendment lawyer in DC who really is a specialist with the FTC recommended to me by two prominent people out there. This gentleman’s in his 70s. He’s been doing this for 40+ years. 

In the final analysis he said to me, you do not have first amendment protection right now to talk about COVID online. You should, but you don’t. He goes, that’s the political world we live in right now. He said, you have to make a decision whether you want to continue treating patients or you want to fight the FTC. He said, if you want to fight the FTC, I’ll do it for you, but his retainer was multi-millions of dollars that I don’t have. He said, it will go to the US Supreme Court and then we’ll see. But if you don’t have that money and you want to treat patients, then I advise you to stop writing about it. He said, I’ve never done this before in my career, and it’s not right, but this is the world we live in right now.

But I said to him, hey, I’ve been writing this book on my experience with treating viruses. Can I publish it? He said, oh, your book has first amendment protection. He goes, yeah, you can publish anything you want.


[00:49:12] Ashley James: Okay, so explain that to me. You’re not protected by the First Amendment if you’re posting a blog on your website, but you are if you publish a book, why is that?


[00:49:23] Dr. David Brownstein: He said it’s not right, it should go to the Supreme Court, and it should be rectified, but that’s the way it is. He said, me personally, you do not have First Amendment protection. He goes, the book does. Books are treated differently than the web and anything you write.

So I published my book, A Holistic Approach to Viruses, the therapy we’ve been doing. It’s been amazing. We just got through another round of COVID in Michigan, in the Detroit area where I live. We were, again, working long hours in the parking lot. I think we’re at the end of that. That seems pretty settled down now, but the therapy still works. There’s nothing better we have than our immune system. It’s what we should be focusing on more than anything as physicians. If the immune system has the basic raw materials it needs, it can do pretty, pretty wonderful things when it’s confronted with stress from a virus or something else.


[00:50:34] Ashley James: Absolutely. So you mentioned that part of your therapy was high doses of A, C, D, and iodine. Did you mention zinc?


[00:50:44] Dr. David Brownstein: No, I did not mention zinc because we did not use zinc as part of our therapy. It’s never been part of our therapy.


[00:50:50] Ashley James: Why is that?


[00:50:51] Dr. David Brownstein: Well, that’s a good question. Why is that is because I’ve been doing holistic medicine for 20 years checking people for nutritional and hormonal imbalances, and zinc is one of the things that I’ve been checking. It never was part of our therapy. So our therapy is what I told you, what you just repeated. I can’t explain why it was never part of our therapy, and part of it was because we’ve been checking zinc levels for years and rectifying zinc levels. Most of our patients weren’t low with zinc going into this thing, but we never found a need for zinc for treating viral illness. It just wasn’t.


[00:51:29] Ashley James: Your patients aren’t deficient, everything was good, and if you saw zinc deficiency, you would handle it.


[00:51:33] Dr. David Brownstein: Of course I would. Do I think zinc should be used for this thing? I can’t speak to you, I didn’t use it.


[00:51:41] Ashley James: Yes. Sure, sure, sure. That makes sense.


[00:51:44] Dr. David Brownstein: I didn’t need to use it. My patients did fine with what we gave them.


[00:51:47] Ashley James: I had COVID. Right after I gave birth and we lost our child, very traumatic. My body’s in shock. My immune system is tanking because I’m in grief and I just gave her, so postpartum. And then I had postpartum high blood pressure, which we weren’t sure if it was—I had no signs of preeclampsia during pregnancy, but it was very high the moment I gave birth, which also having paramedics work on your newborn for an hour while you’re begging for your daughter to be alive, I’m sure that raised my blood pressure. But my blood pressure was through the roof for the first time in my life. That’s a comorbidity in and of itself for COVID.

We think maybe one of the paramedics gave me COVID because a few days later, I developed symptoms, and my husband had it but he had a sniffly nose and he mowed the lawn for four hours in the height of his COVID. He’s like, yeah, I’m kind of tired and I was sniffling. That was it. We did quarantine just to protect everyone else. I’m not going to be a schmuck and just make anyone sick. So we stayed at home, obviously, and I was postpartum. 

But I was hit really bad. Normally I’m a very healthy person, but knowing what my body had just been through with giving birth, grief, and high blood pressure from whatever it was from—whether it was grief or whether I did have all of a sudden, out of nowhere, have some preeclampsia. But I had no other symptoms of preeclampsia. It was just like, okay, well, the body acts weird after giving birth, who knows.

So I was hit really hard, I was in bed, and I was exhausted. And then I’d get really lightheaded and dizzy, and my blood pressure all of a sudden tanked into the double digits. I was like 94 over 46 or something crazy, like I was fainting, which I also read is something that can happen. When you have COVID, you can experience all of a sudden these dips or drop in blood pressure. And those on blood pressure meds, there’s this whole article that talked about blood pressure medication and how doctors need to know that patients should be taken off of them because it can cause massive kidney damage to be on blood pressure meds while someone has the active infection that they’re fighting.

I didn’t have a lot of the symptoms like I didn’t have the headaches. There’s a bunch of things I didn’t have, but it was really hard to breathe. My lungs felt like I had asthma. I’ve never had asthma in my life but describing it, it’s like I took a breath and everything hurt, everything was tight, and it was very hard to even get air into my lungs. It felt like it was all tight like asthma. And I lost my sense of smell, it was crazy because I have essential oils. I was just like, all of a sudden I can’t smell peppermint. This is crazy.

What I did was double my zinc. I went from 30 milligrams to 90, and two days later, my sense of smell came back. I was like, okay, maybe my body was using up more zinc to fight the virus and I dipped into a deficiency and so my smells went away, and then it came back when I took more. But basically, my smell came back the moment I took more zinc, which I thought was really cool. 

Then my husband noticed his sense of smell went away. So I said, okay, take more of your zinc. He did and his sense of smell came right back. I was like, this is cool because some people lose their sense of smell for a while. I’ve heard weeks and some people, even months later, say they don’t really feel like their taste or smell is back to normal whereas mine is totally back to normal. I definitely incorporated zinc into it. I was taking everything I could, everything I could get my hands on. And now NAC, which Amazon has taken out of their store even though NAC is not illegal. But this is really frustrating.

Also, Amazon also took down I think Colloidal Silver a while ago because they’re like, how dare you use natural medicine to support your body in fighting an infection. We’re going to make sure that doesn’t happen. This is pretty crazy that major stores like Amazon are limiting our access to natural therapeutics that support the body’s ability to fight infection. Why is that? It boggles my mind.

I’m very excited about your book and I think listeners are. Considering the fact that your book, A Holistic Approach to Viruses is protected, giving you free speech, you’re allowed to share everything that you’re not allowed to share online. Are there things in your book that you aren’t even comfortable with saying in an interview? Are there things that are so shocking that you couldn’t say it here? Are you allowed to talk freely about what’s in your book?


[00:56:54] Dr. David Brownstein: First off, I’m sorry, for your loss. I didn’t know any of that.


[00:56:59] Ashley James: Yes, the last month or so has been a little crazy for me.


[00:57:07] Dr. David Brownstein: But no, there’s nothing shocking in the book. It’s a 25-year history of what we’ve been doing. There’s still good news out there, there’s good news in that book. Your immune system was designed by somebody for a purpose, and the purpose was so you can survive, have kids, and perpetuate the species, otherwise, we wouldn’t be here. This is what should be done, in my opinion. I think that when you look back at this, and basically CDC, NAAT, Dr. Fauci, and everybody is basically saying there’s nothing to do. Just stay home, social distance, and wear your mask. That’s it.

That was incorrect. We should be supporting the immune system. It’s not rocket science. It’s pretty basic stuff in my mind. I wrote a peer-reviewed paper, I published a book on it, and we’re still doing it. I don’t know. I feel like I’m in Alice in Wonderland where down is up and up is down right now. It’s sad, it’s really sad. When the truth finally comes out about this, people could see through the fog of fear that’s been thrown at them, I imagine there’s going to be a lot of angry Americans out there. I mean, right now, they’re just placid Americans, I don’t quite understand that.


[00:58:40] Ashley James: I don’t understand it either.


[00:58:42] Dr. David Brownstein: We should be in the streets. Europe they’re in the streets. They’re not happy with the situation they’re in. We just do nothing here. We’re just complacent sheep. I’m not quite certain why that’s the case.


[00:58:56] Ashley James: Maybe they’re drinking the fluoride in the water.


[00:58:59] Dr. David Brownstein: Maybe.


[00:59:02] Ashley James: Well, it’s probably because so many people are listening to their friends and family and listening to the mainstream media, and the narrative is very convincing. But we have to start thinking for ourselves. We really do. We have to put on the critical thinking cap and go, okay, I’m going to question everything. I want people to question what I say. I want people to question what you say. I want people to question everything, become the Doubting Thomas. Don’t just blindly listen to anyone. I don’t care how much of an expert they are. I don’t care what level in the government they are, what level in science they are, how big up in leadership they are, question everything. We really, really, really need to put on our thinking caps, what’s going on here?


[00:59:53] Dr. David Brownstein: Let me tell you, I bring back the analogy of Vioxx. Vioxx was a COX-2 inhibitor. It was in the 2000s I think when it came out. The headlines were, we have a new anti-inflammatory medication and it’s not going to cause GI bleeding because tens of thousands of Americans die a year from GI bleeding due to NSAIDs, nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug use like Motrin, Advil, and prescription NSAIDs. 

Here’s Vioxx, it’s not going to cause GI bleeding and it’s going to treat them because it works in the COX-2 pathway instead of a COX-1 pathway, which most anti-inflammatories work on both COX-1 and COX-2.

So, here I go look up the mechanism of the drug when it was announced it’s coming out. I look at the pathways, I look at my biochem charts, I’m like, hey, this is going to prostacyclin, which is an important prostaglandin that needs to be produced to keep blood vessels dilated. So if you don’t have prostaglandin, the blood vessels are going to constrict. If you don’t have prostacyclin, the blood vessels can constrict and you can get strokes, heart attacks, and blood clots.

I saw that and I remember writing about it and said, this may be causing strokes and heart attacks. I’m not going to use this drug, and I never prescribed Vioxx once.

Well, the consequence of Vioxx coming to the market, FDA-approved, touted in all the headlines as the greatest advancement in NSAID therapy. Fifty thousand Americans died that didn’t have to, over 150,000 had strokes and heart attacks that didn’t have to, and the drug was pulled from the market. Merck paid billions of dollars in fines. There was no reason it should have been approved in the first place.

There are many incidents of conventional medicine, missing the boat, and being late to the boat. People do need to think for themselves. They need to not rely on TV personalities and fear to make their decisions. Because really, through this whole COVID crisis, this was being driven by fear decisions from Dr. Fauci on down. It was a fear-based approach of locking yourself in your basement, social distance, and wearing 10 masks when you go outside. Look what we got for it, almost 600,000 dead while we waited for the vaccine. That was just a mess.


[01:02:36] Ashley James: I want to talk about the vaccine, we’re going to get into that in a bit. In your book, do you talk about what we can do to support the body in preventing getting infected? This is my thing, my son was exposed and had zero symptoms. He was exposed to both of us. 

We all sleep in the same room. He has his own bed, but we’re all in the same big room. I do that because actually, he has asthma. We have it under control now, but I want to listen to him. I’m like a paranoid mom and I want to listen to his breathing because oftentimes, he would go into respiratory distress at night. He’s been hospitalized twice. It’s allergy-induced, and one of the things he’s allergic to is dust mites. That’s hard with a house that’s carpeted. We just stay on top of vacuuming, but we can’t get rid of all the dust mites in the world, so I like to listen to his breathing.

But he was in the same room as us, he’s in the same house as us, we hugged him. I’m sure he grabbed our glass and started drinking from it. He’s obviously breathing our air. Apparently, this is highly contagious, what I’ve been told, and he never had any symptoms. What I’ve heard is that people can get exposed to the virus, the body will mount a response, the immune system will figure out how to handle it, and they won’t have any symptoms. But some people develop symptoms and develop this COVID-19 sickness. Maybe you could explain why some people either have incredibly minor symptoms or no symptoms at all. Is there anything we can do proactively to support our body so we’re one of those people?


[01:04:33] Dr. David Brownstein: Well, I mean, look, we’re all unique biochemical individuals. I can’t explain why some people’s households got nailed with it and some people got very minimal or didn’t get it at all. I mean, that’s life and that’s how things go. But there are things people can do to minimize the risk of becoming a statistic with COVID, becoming a severe statistic or a death statistic. But it’s not just COVID, it’s with any viral illness, it’s with any infectious illness. If you have a properly functioning immune system, we were designed to withstand things like this. How do you do it? 

You do the basics. Number one, eat a clean diet free of refined sugar and other refined food products like refined salt, flour, oil, and sugar. Number two, maintain adequate hydration. Drink half your body weight in water. Take your body weight in pounds, divide it by two, and that many ounces of water a day should be your minimum. 

Number three, maintain adequate salt levels. My book, Salt Your Way to Health talks about that where salt is the second major constituent next to water. We need adequate salt levels. Many people find themselves every flu season in the hospital because they become hyponatremic. Their sodium levels fall when they become ill. We want to start off with good sodium levels when you get sick, good salt levels.

Part of the basics for my practice is maintaining adequate iodine levels. Iodine levels have been falling over 50% over the last 40 years across the United States. The vast majority of people are iodine deficient. My testing has shown over 97% of people are iodine deficient, most of them severely iodine deficient. Iodine deficiency explains the epidemic of cancer of the breast, ovaries, uterus, prostate, pancreas, and thyroid that we’re seeing in this country. One in seven women has breast cancer, and one in three men has prostate cancer. Thyroid cancer is the fastest-growing cancer in the US.

I say, iodine deficiency, if not the underlying cause, is a huge part of that underlying cause of why we’re suffering so many endocrine cancers across the US. That’s just basic stuff that I think people should be doing. And then you should work with your holistic doctor to correct your nutritional and hormonal imbalances. When you get exposed to a viral illness, bacterial illness, a parasitic illness, or a stressor in your life, your immune system and your body can fight back and do what it’s designed to do, do what we were programmed to do by our maker. The proof is what I’ve seen in my practice for 28 years. It does work.

On the other hand, you can eat the typical American diet and call it the standard American diet or the sad diet full of refined foods, way too much sugar, way too much refined flour, salt, and oil and be overweight like 2/3 of Americans are. We don’t exercise, we don’t drink enough water, and we probably drink too much alcohol, especially during COVID. And then what’s going to happen to you when you get hit with some stressors, some viral illness? It’s not going to be kind to those people. 

I think that this COVID-19 brought forth everything that I’ve been talking about for 28 years, everything I’m seeing in my practice, everything that’s wrong with our country health-wise, and everything that’s wrong with conventional medicine all in one package. It’s an ugly look for us.

Here we spend 20% of our GNP on health care. What the hell do we get for it? It’s 600,000 people dying when Dr. McCullough and others feel that’s probably at least 75% of people with coronavirus, if we treated them early, tried to support their immune system, and treated them with therapies that were known to help support the immune system or to help other viral illnesses, we probably would have had over 75% of people still alive from this.

Maybe we’ll get 150,000 people dead from Coronavirus, which is basically a bad flu season. We wouldn’t be in the mess we’re in now. We wouldn’t be still talking about masks, social distancing, gloves, and all that stuff. But we’re not, we are here. People need to wake up. They need to get past that fog of fear; start reading for themselves; and start adapting eating better, exercising, and taking better care of their bodies. The proof is in the pudding. It’ll pay off when you’re exposed to something like SARS-CoV-2.


[01:09:29] Ashley James: Your protocol, which you’ve used for many years for other viral infections and lung infections is working tremendously well. I love the statistics that you have that you’re showing. The proof’s in the pudding. The proof in the pudding is in the eating. You are showing that you are having a better outcome than we’re telling you all to sit on your hands and stop treating them and just let him go to the hospital and wait until they get a trial vaccine. That which just again blows my mind that that’s what doctors are being told. So you have this great protocol.

I do have a question. Have you looked into glutathione and supporting glutathione? I’ve heard people have really good success with it. I personally also took oral glutathione and noticed a very positive shift in my health while my body was fighting the infection.


[01:10:40] Dr. David Brownstein: We use glutathione in our practice both orally and intravenously. I’ve used glutathione for the majority of my holistic practice. However, it wasn’t part of our holistic protocol. You should certainly want to have optimal glutathione levels when you get sick. The best I can tell you is it wasn’t part of our protocol. We just didn’t use it and we got the results we got. But I use glutathione in my practice and it is very important. When you take Tylenol, Tylenol blocks the production of glutathione. So if you take a lot of Tylenol, you’re going to be glutathione deficient.

I was talking to my patients on the phone when they were calling and they couldn’t breathe, don’t take Tylenol, unless you absolutely have to. Just get in the bathtub or sponge off with cool water to keep your temperature down. I didn’t want people taking Tylenol unless their fever was over 103.5. It’s because it would deplete glutathione levels, but we didn’t use it as part of our protocol. 

It was high dose vitamin A—100,000 units A day for four days. Vitamin C, 1000 milligrams every hour until they got loose stools and they felt better. Vitamin D, 50,000 units a day for four days. Iodine 25 milligrams a day if they weren’t using it, and double whatever they were using if they were going into it with iodine for four days. And then nebulizing 0.03% solution of hydrogen peroxide and iodine every hour while they were sick, and then lessen it as they got better. 

Then they’d come in the parking lot, they’re still coming in. Not doing as many now, thank goodness. It’s not as bad here. But coming in the parking lot for IV of vitamin C and peroxide and ozone shots. Keep in mind, ozone stimulates glutathione production. Vitamin C helps regenerate glutathione in the body. So, there are mechanisms to get glutathione levels up through doing what I was doing.


[01:12:52] Ashley James: And these patients of yours, you’ve seen them for a while, you’ve helped them adjust their diet, you’ve already been working on helping them with any comorbidities they may have had such as high blood pressure, obesity, or type two diabetes. These are patients who have been seeing a holistic doctor and have been working on building their health.


[01:13:14] Dr. David Brownstein: They were part of our practice.


[01:13:16] Ashley James: Hopefully they were already healthy, to begin with, or at least they didn’t step into this illness with nutrient deficiencies. These were healthier than normal people, would you say?


[01:13:30] Dr. David Brownstein: Probably. That’s one of the criticisms of my study is that they were healthier than regular people. Well, I don’t think that’s a criticism. I think that’s praise. I’m glad they were healthier. But look, we had our share of people with low pulse ox, who couldn’t breathe, who we were scared. We called them every night, the sick ones, to check on them until we felt they were out of the woods. There were some people that kept me up at night that I wasn’t sure are they going to make this or not? 

COVID was very random and it seemed to hit harder than others. I was shocked that sometimes some of the healthiest people got really nailed with it. But again, the end of it is our results speak for themselves.


[01:14:12] Ashley James: They do.


[01:14:13] Dr. David Brownstein: It’s a powerful message.


[01:14:17] Ashley James: It is. Who should read your book, A Holistic Approach to Viruses?


[01:14:23] Dr. David Brownstein: Well, I think anyone interested in how to properly support the immune system, so it can overcome viral, other illnesses, and other stressors. So who should read it? I think we should all read it. I’ve written 16 books, people ask me, how do you write? I have a full-time practice, I write a newsletter. I was blogging every night during COVID and still writing all this stuff. The books come easy for me because either I write them in one of two moods, either I’m really excited about something, or I’m really irritated about something. But there’s a passion either way with it.

What I write in my books is what I see works in my practice, or what I see doesn’t work in my practice like my Drugs that Don’t Work book. What I see work is easy for me. I’ve done this enough to know this therapy works. I’ve done testosterone enough to know that it helps people with heart disease. I’ve diagnosed thyroid enough to know that I feel like I know what I’m doing. It’s not like I’m not learning, I’m learning every day in my practice and I’m changing things up. I write about what I see works in the practice.

I wrote this book, A Holistic Approach to Viruses because we were seeing it work. We’ve seen it work for 28 years, and we saw it work through COVID. I told you the story. I wasn’t sure, this was a different corona strain, but it helps a third of the flu-like illnesses every year or coronavirus, why wouldn’t it work? That was my view, and it did. 

Who should read this book? We’re dealing with SARS COVID 2 right now. Next year, it’s going to be SARS COVID 3 or some other thing. The year after that it would be SARS COVID 4, 5, and 6, or whatever else is out there, This isn’t going to be the last of this stuff. We’re going to have to learn to have a good immune system going into this, otherwise, we’re going to be going through what we just went through over the past year and I don’t want to do that again. I don’t think our country can handle it again.


[01:16:40] Ashley James: No. I mean, we’re the 99%. We need to help our fellow friends, family, and neighbors learn this kind of information. We all need to protect ourselves with knowledge and with the truth. So absolutely buy A Holistic Approach to Viruses. Read it, then pass it along, get all your friends and family to read it, and share this podcast with them. They need to understand that there are doctors like Dr. David Brownstein who are successfully helping those who are infected with the coronavirus. They’re having way better outcomes than just sitting, waiting, and being sick, way better outcomes. And that we can support the body’s ability to fight it off, support the body’s structure and function of the body to heal. We can do that with natural medicine. And I just love the work you do. I love your books. Definitely, please come back on the show.


[01:17:50] Dr. David Brownstein: I’d love to.


[01:17:50] Ashley James: Thank you. Yes, absolutely. We got to go through more of your information because every book you’ve written, I feel like Alice in Wonderland, I don’t know which rabbit hole to go down. There are all these rabbit holes, I can’t wait. I’m very excited.

I do have a few questions about your protocol, and I’m sure that you specify in your book as well. The A, the C, the D, the iodine. It doesn’t matter what form someone gets it in. Like vitamin C, there’s Ester C, there’s these Buffered C’s or whatever. Does it matter what? Obviously D is D3? But is there a specific kind that we make sure that’s the most bioavailable, it’s the cleanest, or are there certain brands that you say this is the best because they’re better quality?


[01:18:39] Dr. David Brownstein: It’s a good question. Before we get into A, C, D, and iodine, the more important thing is to eat a clean diet free of refined sugar and other refined foods. Drink enough water. Maintain adequate salt levels, and maintain optimal iodine levels going into any illness. But having said that, I recommend in the book, ascorbic acid is the form of vitamin C. I don’t think it’s that crucial what form of vitamin C. I certainly don’t think you have to spend expensive amounts of vitamin C. Some companies complain there’s is more absorbable than others. I haven’t seen that occur in my practice.

As far as vitamin A goes, that’s really the only thing I guess to make a point of. I’m talking vitamin A here, not beta carotene. Beta carotene does not have the immune support properties that vitamin A does. I use an emulsified form of vitamin A. Vitamin A can be toxic like all the fat-soluble vitamins we take large amounts of. The four days of this is, in my experience, hasn’t been toxic to anybody. But the emulsified form has less chance of toxicity too. Vitamin D, like you said, is vitamin D3. And then iodine is a combination of iodine and iodide. I write about that in my iodine book. It’s Iodine: Why You Need It, Why You Can’t Live Without It. It is important to use the right kind of iodine for whole body support of iodine.


[01:20:10] Ashley James: Oh, man, I got to have you back on the show because I want to start going down this iodine rabbit hole but it’s not really relevant to this conversation. It’s more of just I want to talk more about iodine. I definitely have to have you back. We’ll just leave that on a cliffhanger and say listeners got to keep listening because we’re going to have you back for a whole iodine talk for sure.

I’d love to finish off the interview by discussing these experimental tests, this experimental thing they’re doing where they’re calling it a vaccine, but I don’t even think you can actually call it a vaccine yet because it’s still an experiment. We’re the guinea pigs. We’re not even doing an animal trial. You know, all the animals died or a majority of them died when they did animal trials in the past. 

Just like they make flu vaccines, they’ve been trying to make corona vaccines for a long time and all the animals died. But let’s just skip the animals and go to human trials, incredibly scary. This is a trial. This is not an approved drug. This is what really scares me. We have to understand, this isn’t about anti-vax or pro-vax, and that’s what the mainstream media wants to just taint this picture. This is not about that.

I know doctors who are incredibly pro-vaccine who like, yes, I got all the shots. They are very pro-vaccine and they’re incredibly scared of what’s going on right now. So I’d love to know, if you could just paint the picture, what are your thoughts on these trials that are going on right now?


[01:21:55] Dr. David Brownstein: Okay, so the vaccine for COVID. I wrote a long chapter about that in my book, my virus book. I hope the vaccine is safe and effective, but the last two words in that chapter are we’ll see. This is a phase three experiment undergoing right now. As far as the animals go, the animals are waiting for us because they’re not going to take until they see if the human trials are favorable or not. They’re waiting. This is the first time in history that a vaccine has been used like this. The best two words I give you are we’ll see.

Do I think the vaccine should be used for kids? The death rate for kids is near zero, as near zero as you can get it. No, I don’t think the vaccine should be used for kids. Should the vaccine be used for people under 70 where you have a 99.7% chance of surviving? I guess the people can decide that one. Should it be used for over 70 when there’s up to a 5% death rate for those who get COVID? Maybe we could consider it for them. But look, I think if people had a healthier immune system this thing overall doesn’t kill the same percentage that kills the flu. The problem is, it’s killed more people because it’s a novel virus and we’re so unhealthy in our country.

I think the big mistake we made was telling everybody to just wait for the vaccine, wait for the vaccine. This is a new technology that hasn’t been used before, and I am not very quick to use new drugs as I told you with Vioxx. 

Let me give you this analogy. I remember when I was a resident, I was rounding with Dr. Solomon. He was so knowledgeable, I thought he knew everything. He was a good family doctor. I said to him, Dr. Solomon, how do you keep up with all these new drugs that are coming out all the time? He says, David, that’s easy. The drug hasn’t been out for two years, use something else. Why would you consider using it? They don’t study well enough. I was a resident back then, I wasn’t even a holistic doctor. I was just a regular doctor and I took his advice to heart, and I certainly took it to heart with Vioxx, which killed all those people.

What do I think about this vaccine? I tell you, I think we’re moving way too fast. And if this vaccine turns out to be problematic, we have vaccinated half of our country right now, 160 million people have it. What the hell are we going to do If this turns out to be a problem going down the road? We’re really not going to know if it’s a problem for a couple of years fully, but we’re going to find out a lot this fall when coronavirus comes back. We’ll see how people’s immune systems respond who have had this vaccine. 

I hope it’s safe. I hope it’s effective. I hope it’s a wonderful thing and it’s protected a bunch of people, but I can only leave you with we’ll see. People need to study it, people need to make their own decision. I’m not so thrilled about rolling out something that hasn’t gone through proper safety studies. If this turns into a problem, what the heck are we going to do in this country?


[01:25:36] Ashley James: Especially because all our first responders got it.


[01:25:38] Dr. David Brownstein: Not all the first responders. Not all of us. That’s not true. Now remember, if you look at some of those numbers, I still see the numbers. There’s 40% to 50% of nurses out there who aren’t getting it. The reason they’re not getting it is because they’re on the front line and they’re seeing some of the side effects with these vaccines. We’ve seen in our practice some serious side effects with it.


[01:25:57] Ashley James: What are the side effects that you’ve seen?


[01:25:59] Dr. David Brownstein: In our small practice, we’ve seen three strokes, we’ve seen a couple of pulmonary embolisms, we’re up to six blood clots, and then the host of other problems, some serious other problems. If that’s happening in my small practice, we’re not solely just seeing this, this is happening elsewhere too. I think that time will tell. I’m hoping it’s safe and effective. I think people need to, again, not react as part of fear with this issue but study it and make their decision about what they want to do.


[01:26:44] Ashley James: I’m not a guinea pig. I don’t put myself in drug trials.


[01:26:53] Dr. David Brownstein: This is a drug trial.


[01:26:54] Ashley James: This is a drug trial. And the fact that there are companies, not that I would go to Dick’s Burgers anyway. But here in Seattle, we have Dick’s Burgers. It’s like a really popular local burger joint and they have a sign outside that says, if you’re not going to wear a mask, you have to show your vaccine card to us. Doesn’t that violate HIPAA? That blows my mind.


[01:27:23] Dr. David Brownstein: Show us your papers.


[01:27:24] Ashley James: Right, show us your papers. And then I went to Chipotle a few days ago and they have a sign up that says if you’re, you don’t have to wear a mask. I’m like, oh, all I read was you don’t have to wear a mask so I walked in and the manager’s like, wear your mask. Where’s your mask? I just pointed at the sign, I’m like, your sign says I don’t have to wear a mask. I mean, they can’t. It’s against HIPAA violations to ask me medical questions like that, at least that’s my understanding. 

But the fact that we’re being pushed in this direction by businesses, by the media, and we’re being peer pressured. The way they’re doing it, they’re getting your friends and family to pressure you. I’ve heard from several people that they’re feeling pressured by their friends and family. I can’t go to my bridge club or I can’t go to my book club until I get it. Why in the world were you even discussing your private business? That’s private. Your medical decisions are private, and yet the way that they’re marketing it is that we got to do it right now.

You mean, you want the entire population to be in a drug trial? We don’t know the long-term efficacy and safety of this. What is going on? Again, very Orwellian. I’m very concerned for people.


[01:29:04] Dr. David Brownstein: Concerned for our country.


[01:29:05] Ashley James: I’m very concerned for all countries. Look at Israel where people’s freedoms are completely taken away because if you don’t have your vaccine passport, you can’t even practically be a citizen. This is what we’re hearing is that all rights are being taken away, it’s very scary. I keep hearing about they still have outbreaks there because again, trial, right?

Maybe you could speak to explaining vaccines because I think this would be good for those of us to understand the difference between marketing and reality. Marketing is vaccines are this bulletproof, all of a sudden, you won’t get the infection. You won’t get the infection. You won’t be infected, but that’s not what vaccines are. Vaccines don’t stop you from getting an infection.


[01:30:03] Dr. David Brownstein: Well, a true vaccine should. The measles vaccine should stop you from getting measles. The chickenpox vaccine should stop you from getting chickenpox. This vaccine has never been shown to stop you from getting coronaviruses. In the original studies, they were shown to stop severe illness and hospitalization. It has never been shown to stop transmission, and it’s never been shown to stop you from getting sick.

So this is different from other vaccines that we’ve had, and that’s why you’re seeing some places on the internet where they’re saying, well, it’s really not a vaccine. It’s a genetic device or the kind of medical device to modify your genetic material. But this is a whole different mechanism that they’re titling a vaccine, which is different from how we’re used to vaccines as we know them. 

If we take the chickenpox vaccine, I was a resident when the chickenpox vaccine came out and that really stopped chickenpox. Kids don’t get chickenpox anywhere near what they used to get it. This is different. This one’s different. It is a grand experiment and we’ll see. There are many people out there who feel like you do, they don’t want to be part of any big pharma experiments. But this is where we are. I think if people were more aware of that, we see some more hesitation and some more thinking about this. Right now, people aren’t thinking, they’re just reacting in fear that that’s the only way to protect themselves.


[01:31:58] Ashley James: Yeah, that’s the sad part is buying into the fear. So we don’t need to buy into the fear, we need to educate ourselves. Knowledge is power. The more knowledge we have, the more we can utilize the more tools we have in our tool belt. 

Slow down, take a deep breath, take in the information. Anytime you make a medical decision, one of my friends was deciding whether she was going to get radiation or not after chemotherapy, or when she was deciding to do chemotherapy or not. They want to just rush her in and they tell her all statistics that make her afraid so that she’ll take immediate action. I thought that was very manipulative. 

Let her take a deep breath, let her do the research, and let her decide for herself. They wanted to schedule, okay, we’re going to start your chemo tomorrow. If you don’t do this, you’re going to die. Do you really need to give someone that just found out they have cancer scare tactics? You don’t do that, that’s not helping. Let the person Take a deep breath and give them true informed consent, give them all the information—the good, the bad, the ugly, and also tell them about alternative therapies. 

But we’re not experiencing true informed consent with this drug trial because we definitely don’t know all the side effects yet. People are still reporting to VAERS, and that’s even being manipulated. And then they’re not allowing physicians to practice any kind of alternative therapies, so we can’t really get true informed consent. It just boggles my mind. 

But what we can do is we can get your book, A Holistic Approach to Viruses, and we can learn what’s really working to support the structure and function of the body to fight viruses. Thank you for writing this and thank you for coming here and sticking your neck out. They’re trying to silence you and you’re sticking your neck out. I love that you found a workaround by publishing your book. I’m excited that this information is getting out there.


[01:34:05] Dr. David Brownstein: Well, thank you for having me, Ashley. It was a nice talk. Hopefully, we can take the fear knob and start turning it down and then we can become rational people again and make better healthcare decisions. 


[01:34:20] Ashley James: Absolutely. And listeners should go to your website, And also, I love this because you’ve been doing this for so long. You bought these really good URLs, I love it. Those are your websites, and of course, the links to everything that Dr. David Brownstein does including his books will be in the show notes of today’s podcast at We’re definitely going to have you back on the show because there are so many rabbit holes we could go down with all the information and all your wonderful books. I’m very excited to have you back.


[01:34:54] Dr. David Brownstein: Thank you.



Get Connected with Dr. David Brownstein!

Dr. Brown’s Holistic Medicine

Center For Holistic Medicine

Books by Dr. David Brownstein

A Holistic Approach To Viruses

Drugs That Don’t Work and Natural Therapies That Do! 2nd Edition

Iodine: Why You Need It. Why You Can’t Live Without It. 5th Edition

Ozone: The Miracle Therapy

The Guide to a Dairy-Free Diet

The Guide to a Gluten-Free Diet


Check out more wonderful books by Dr. Brownstein!



Jun 15, 2021

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Study Outlines Key Factor In Chronically Sick vs Healthy Children



  • True informed consent
  • Are face masks safe and effective in preventing COVID-19 transmission
  • What you can do to prevent yourself from getting COVID-19
  • Absolute risk reduction vs, relative risk reduction of COVID-19 vaccines


Dr. Paul Thomas is back on the show, and he catches us up on what has happened to him since the last time he was on the show. He shares his research about vaccinated and unvaccinated kids and also some studies about COVID-19. He also touches briefly about masking and its safety and efficacy for children and adults. Dr. Thomas also gives some tips on how to stay healthy.



Hello, true health seeker and welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health podcast. This episode and the next two episodes after this one are going to be a series. I am excited and nervous to publish them.

There is a threat that might eliminate my podcast and that is free speech, so I bring you three doctors, these are medical doctors. One of them is also a PhD, cardiologist, and research scientist. Today’s doctor, Dr. Paul Thomas, is a pediatric general physician of over 30 years, and each of my guests—this and the next two, the three episodes—are all doctors who’ve been practicing for a very long time, 30+ years each I believe, and they are being silenced for speaking the truth, for sharing science, and it’s a science that has been so controversial because it goes against what is being taught in the mainstream.

So, I invite you to open your minds, take in all the information, become critical thinkers if you’re not already, and use this information to empower you. We will not fear monger, we will not coerce, it is all about sharing free information and allowing us to think for ourselves. Please share my podcast with those you care about, share this episode with those who want to keep learning, growing, and continue to educate themselves on the best choices possible that they can make for themselves and their family as it pertains to their health.

I interviewed Dr. Paul Thomas back in episode 224 and he shared the stories in his life as a child growing up in Africa to white missionary parents and the perspective it gave him in order to become a doctor. And then his experiences in his early career watching children go through regular wellness checks as we know them today, and experience side effects from vaccines, and see how the CDC schedule was not optimal for every patient. That led him to create his solution, which was to use one vaccine at a time and watch and see how the child reacts to it.

He then wrote a book called The Vaccine-Friendly Plan, and his whole approach is that he’s not anti-vaccine, he’s also not pro-vaccine. This sort of upsets people on both sides of the spectrum. I hope that you, like me try to stay in the middle, take in all the information, and not vilify either side. But just take in all the information in order to make informed decisions. Instead of being pressured by fear or coercion, make informed decisions. He shares some amazing information, and he did back in 224. So you can go back and listen to that episode as well.

But today, he shares some information that is so empowering, that is so mind-blowing. I hope you go to the links of the studies he has published in journals that show the findings of his studies. And if you’re like me, you will get excited because this information is empowering when we take it all in without emotion and we really look at it, and then we can decide how to navigate our health choices based on all of the research in this information.

So, I’m excited for you to listen to this episode, and I really, really want you to share it with those that you think will help them to also make informed choices in their life to help them. So, thank you for being a listener of the Learn True Health podcast. Thank you for sharing.

If you ever go to your favorite podcast directory like iTunes, Spotify, iHeartRadio, wherever you listen to my show. If you ever go there and you find my show has been all of a sudden not there anymore, then I have been censored. I post my show also on LBRY. I believe it’s called LBRY. I post it everywhere I possibly can. But just so you know, if you don’t find me there, you can also email me, If you ever all of a sudden can’t find my podcast, if I’ve been censored, deleted, and blocked, just know that I’ll still be publishing in places where censorship doesn’t exist or where there’s still parts of the internet where freedom of speech is still protected. So I will continue to publish in those areas.

You can follow me on LBRY and come to the Learn True Health Facebook group as well. As long as Facebook allows us to be there, we will be there. We’ve got a robust and beautiful Facebook community. Just search Learn True Health on Facebook and we have a wonderful community of people who are answering questions, seeking advice and seeking solutions to grow, to learn, to achieve true health.

Enjoy today’s interview and please also listen to the next two interviews that I’ll be publishing because I think that this is a very interesting series to publish and get out there, especially for those who didn’t know this information before. Take care.


[00:06:14] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is episode 461. I am so excited for today’s guest. I’ve had Dr. Paul Thomas on the show. It was episode 224 back in February of 2018. Can you believe how much time has passed? Can we just get on a time machine and go back to 2018? That’d be so great.


[00:06:48] Dr. Paul Thomas: Yup. Well, thank you, Ashley, for having me on your show again. So much has happened in my life since early 2018, oh my goodness.


 Ashley James: Well, when we had you on the show, you shared some amazing stories. I’ve always referred back to our episode together because I like to try to stay neutral on many topics that are controversial and allow the guests through science and through real research help people to better understand their medical choices.

I think that when we polarize a topic, we really become ignorant because making a choice that’s emotional, making a medical choice based on a belief that’s uninformed can end up harming us. Or making a medical choice based on, well, my doctor just told me to and he created a lot of fear. My mother-in-law is really pushing for it. When there’s fear, emotion, and people are pushing us or we feel peer pressure to make a medical decision for ourselves or our children, we’re not fully informed. We end up paying the price, and so many have.


[00:07:57] Dr. Paul Thomas: Absolutely.


[00:07:58] Ashley James: What I love about what you do is you believe in true informed consent. and I really learned that from you on such a deep level. I’ve actually had to say that since you and I talked on the show in 2018, I’ve had to say that to several doctors—I want informed consent. They just stopped in their tracks and they switched gears. They’re like, oh, okay. It was great because I could see that they were like, okay, I can’t just tell this person what to do. I have to show them all of their options and really go through them.

I actually had one doctor get very excited. My son ended up in a children’s hospital with respiratory distress, it was very scary. Before they stuck a needle in him for an IV, what they were actually giving him magnesium, I had no idea what they were doing. I’m like, I need informed consent. She stopped and she got really excited. She’s like, okay, great. Let me tell you, this is what we’re doing, these are the possible side effects, these are the benefits, these are the alternatives, and she really walked me through it.

I’m like, wow, the doctor that wants to give you true informed consent wants to empower you to make good choices, to make the best choices that you can. The doctors that get upset, that’s a doctor I’d be afraid of. So, I learned so much from you and our listeners learned so much from you. I heard the other day from one of my friends who’s in the medical field that you have been up against it, and she heard you in another interview talk about some very interesting things that have been going on. I’ve been watching you, I follow you on Facebook, and I would love for you to share with the listeners what has happened since 2018 since we had you on the show.


[00:09:41] Dr. Paul Thomas: Oh my goodness. A lot, and I’ll walk you through the key points. Thank you for highlighting informed consent. It is the ethical principle upon which all medical procedures should be judged. If you’re going to die right in front of me, if I don’t do something, you would just jump in and do something, right?


[00:10:02] Ashley James: Yes.


[00:10:02] Dr. Paul Thomas: But anything else, if you’re not at risk of dying right now, then if I’m proposing a procedure or a treatment—whether it be medication, surgery, vaccines—you deserve as a patient to be informed of the risks, the benefits, and the alternatives, and one of the alternatives for any medical procedure should always be putting it off, not doing it. Because if I’m just here to coerce you, to convince you, to get you to do my procedure, that’s not true informed consent.

I mean, you could pretend like it is, but you as the consumer, you have to know that it is your option, and you’re not going to be judged, you’re not going to be looked down upon, you’re not going to be made to feel bad if you choose not to follow the advice.

Doctors typically have what they think is best, so generally, we go with whatever our doctors say. But, in the area of vaccines, which has been the world I’m most known for, I mean, I’m a general pediatrician. I also do addiction medicine. I really focus on preventative health and wellness, but the area that I’ve become well known for is this vaccine issue, which like you said, it’s so polarizing.

Part of the reason it’s so polarizing is that the mainstream mantra that is funded by huge pharma dollars is the simple marketing slogan—vaccines are safe and effective. That, folks, is not a medical fact. It is a marketing slogan. But unfortunately, physicians, the public, everybody has just adopted that as if it were a truth, as if that were science. So just to dispel that, vaccines are safe and effective because I’m not anti- or pro-vaccine, just like I’m not anti- or pro-antibiotics, or any other procedure. We have to look at the specifics and individualize for this patient in front of us and go through the pros and the cons—risks, benefits, alternatives.

So, vaccines are safe. Well, that’s obviously false. There is no safe medication. How risky a given vaccine depends on the vaccine, and we’ll probably get to this, but COVID is by far, the COVID vaccine is the most dangerous vaccine that has ever been brought to market. We have over 5000 deaths already from the vaccines reported in VAERS, which we know catches about 1%-2%, no more than 10% for sure of the adverse events. It’s more deaths than all other deaths for the past 30 years from all vaccines combined, think about that.


[00:12:47] Ashley James: Can you say that again?


[00:12:49] Dr. Paul Thomas: There are more deaths from the COVID vaccine than there have been deaths from all other vaccines combined over the entire duration of the VAERS system, which is 30 years. This vaccine is so dangerous it should be pulled from the market, in my opinion, and in the opinion of many physicians and scientists. But those opinions are silenced, you don’t hear it on the news, and there is massive suppression of that sort of information because it just seems like this program has a life of its own. They don’t seem to know how to pull back because they’ve invested I don’t know, hundreds of billions of dollars or something, some massive amount. I mean, they’re trying to vaccinate the planet with an experimental vaccine.

Anyway, I went off on the COVID vaccine a little too soon because this guy’s crazy. You know folks, you got to look at the data, and the data is very convincing. But let me walk you back through my journey since we were last together.

So, in 2016 I wrote a book, The Vaccine-Friendly Plan, and that book is not anti-vaccine or pro-vaccine. In fact, I pissed everybody off with that book because the people who truly hate vaccines call me baby killer because I am recommending vaccines, and the people who are pro-vaccine hate me because I’m not recommending all the vaccines or I’m making it too complicated to follow the CDC schedule. People are not going to get all their vaccines, therefore, I’m harming public health.

Well, that is the narrative that has been used by the Oregon Medical Board to come after me. And actually, since around the time you and I talked, actually it was that month I believe. Maybe it was after we talked, around that time I got a notice from the Oregon Medical Board that said prove. They’d already been hitting me with a few complaints. I know there’s an effort to attempt to get rid of me, let’s just say it that way. 

I am seen by some as dangerous for the public. If I’m causing patients not to follow the CDC schedule and all I do is give informed consent. I tell people the risks, the benefits, the alternatives, and when you really get the truth about risks and benefits, some vaccines just plain don’t make sense. The easy one is Hepatitis B for newborns.

So in America, every newborn in the hospital is given an injection of 250 micrograms of aluminum for a disease Hepatitis B that you catch from sex and IV drug use. The babies in my practice frankly are not having sex and not sharing dirty needles, so unless their birth mother has Hepatitis B, their risk for that disease is absolutely zero.

The risk of injecting that much aluminum is known, it is fairly significant, although it’s not recognized so that’s the issue. Those of us who are aware of aluminum toxicity, it creates problems with your immune system, allergies, and autoimmunity. We know that it affects neurodevelopment. Since 1990 and before, there were studies about aluminum toxicity and how it harms neurodevelopment, so why would you cause something that’s going to affect your baby’s development and brain for a disease they have zero risks for?

So that’s the kind of informed consent. When you as a parent are actually told those facts. I think I’ve had 1 patient out of the last 3000 in my practice still want to get the Hepatitis B vaccine. That one’s so clear. Now, a lot of them are not so clear because they have risks, but they also have benefits, and that’s where it gets muddied. That’s where in my book, The Vaccine-Friendly Plan, I tried to navigate that whole issue.

Let me go back to the fact that the board asked me to prove that the vaccine-friendly plan that I talked about in my book was as safe as the CDC schedule. So, I got this letter from the medical board, and you have to produce, by the way, when the medical board comes after you. If you refuse to cooperate, they just yank your license. So, I hired a doctor to come into my office. He was a former pediatrician neonatologist who had then morphed his career into medical record informatics systems. He had designed, I think, almost 50 informatics systems around the world. I mean, this guy’s a nerd genius data guy.


[00:17:33] Ashley James: Just to explain what that means, he’s able to take all the records and he’s able to quantify certain information? Can you just explain what it is he ends up producing?


[00:17:45] Dr. Paul Thomas: What he does. So I asked him to answer the following question. He came and spent a week in my office. Extracting data about vaccines is pretty complicated when you have different health care systems. I had transferred patients from an old practice, and our systems had changed from one to another. It took him a lot more work because of that, but I basically asked him, identify every patient born into my practice. So this practice, Integrative Pediatrics, was opened in June of 2008. At that time we had 10 ½ years of data.

I said, find every patient born into the practice. We want patients who were seen from birth because I get a lot of patients come into my practice because they’ve had other vaccine injuries and they know that I will listen to them, whereas other practices will just kick them out if they don’t follow the CDC schedule. So I attract a lot of higher-risk families, and I wanted a pure sample of just kids born into the practice. So that ended up being over 3,000 kids. And then I said let’s look at every vaccine they got, every single diagnosis they were given, and let’s just plot out the data.

Actually, he wasn’t even going to plot out the data. His job was merely to find the data. He then had it de-identified by an honest broker so that when I sent that data set to my co-author, James Lyons Weiler, he had no clue who was who. He was purely working from raw data.

Now, the guy that came in, when he came in he was not really a believer that vaccines can cause harm. He was more of the old-school vaccines are safe and effective. I said, well, we’ll see. I mean, I honestly didn’t know what we would find.

After the first day, he came out excited like a kid in a candy store. He’s going, oh my God. The data just jumps out at you. I said, what do you mean? He says, well, I’m not looking for the results, but you cannot not see it. The unvaccinated kids just don’t get sick. They don’t get anything. I knew there was some signal he was seeing, but then when we analyzed this data and we published it, we took it through peer review. The article for your listeners is called Relative Incidence of Office Visits and Cumulative Rates of Billed Diagnoses Along the Axis of Vaccination. It’s published in the International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health, published November 18, 2020.

Now, that’s a mouthful for a title but I just wanted you to have it if you’re looking it up. But basically, if you just look for International Journal Environmental Research Public Health 2020 I think you’ll find it, Relative Incidence of Office Visits and Cumulative Rates of Billed Diagnoses. Sorry about that. Maybe on your show, you can give a link or something. I think I sent it.


[00:20:39] Ashley James: Yes. We actually transcribe all of the interviews and put it on our website, So we’ll make sure the link is there.


[00:20:48] Dr. Paul Thomas: Perfect. For those of you who go and get this article, which I highly recommend, see if you can print it out in color because we have a page of graphs all on one page. It’s Figure 5 Analysis 5, and what it shows is for all the major conditions that were looked at, in orange, you have over that whole 10 years the increase in the diagnosis of the various conditions. So we’ve got asthma, allergic rhinitis, breathing issues, behavior problems, ADD, ADHD, ear infections, other infections, eye infections, eczema, dermatitis, and urticaria. So skin problems and anemia.

For every single one of the conditions, the orange line, which is your vaccinated kid—and by the way, these are children in my practice following the vaccine-friendly plan, so they’re getting about half the vaccines that a CDC schedule kid would get. But even then, when you compare them to over 500 kids who were unvaccinated and it was age-matched, so we’re comparing kids of the same age, the unvaxxed kids just don’t get these conditions. It’s almost a flat line in blue and this rising level of problems for the vaccinated kids.


[00:22:03] Ashley James: I’m looking at the graph right now, I just googled it. I’m looking at Figure 5 and it’s unbelievable. There’s no question when you see this data.


[00:22:12] Dr. Paul Thomas: Yeah, it just jumps out at you, and that’s what he was I think seeing when he was just looking at raw data. I didn’t expect it to be this dramatic. Here’s the problem, for listeners to understand, doctors don’t realize that these things have anything to do with vaccines. I mean, who would think that asthma, ear infections, ear pain, dry skin, itchy skin, or even anemia—who would ever have thought that they had anything to do with vaccines? It seems that they do, and we now have other studies. There’s something called the control group that’s just incredibly powerful.

You can go to and they did a survey. What they found was one-quarter of 1% of Americans are totally unvaccinated. One-quarter of 1%. 99.9.74% have had at least one vaccine, and that was mind-boggling. They surveyed 48 of the 50 states, they had a sample size of I think over 3,000 surveys done. And when they looked at things like heart disease, cancer, or diabetes, the unvaxxed adults had zero—no heart disease, no cancer, no diabetes, zero. And of course, the incidence we know of heart disease in adults is somewhere around 50%, I believe, diabetes 10%.

People don’t know that the chronic things for which you need medication could be related to vaccines because this has never been done. That’s the tragedy of our health system. It has never, because of the sales marketing pitch of vaccines are safe and effective, they’ve never bothered to look. Some of us are waking up to the fact that whoa, we got a problem and we should be looking. That vaxxed-unvaxxed study was published on November 18, 2020. It was first available online at the end of November, and five days after it was available online, the Oregon Medical Board had an emergency meeting and they immediately suspended my license to practice medicine.


[00:24:43] Ashley James: So they asked you for the proof, you gave them the proof, and they suspended your license because you gave them the proof that they asked for.


[00:24:54] Dr. Paul Thomas: There you go. I mean, obviously, I can’t prove that they emergently suspended my license because I published this data. But it’s pretty close to guaranteed proof because of the following. A week before that or maybe it was two weeks before that, they had just sent a new complaint that was absolutely ridiculous. They’ve been sending me new complaints that are anonymous by the way so we don’t know where they’re coming from, who’s initiating these complaints.


[00:25:23] Ashley James: The pharmaceutical company could be.


[00:25:24] Dr. Paul Thomas: I don’t know who, I’ll tell you, but they’ve been endless. I would say the last two, three years, I get complaints every other month and I have to address them. I dig for the data that they’re asking for and give it to them, never hear back. So they’ve never filed any charges, just they’re fishing. So they complain after complaint.

So we were already in the process of trying to respond to another complaint, yet another complaint when this emergency happened. Well, what was the emergency? Nothing had changed. My patients are the healthiest patients in town, and I’ve got data to prove it now that’s been published in a peer-reviewed journal, so where’s the emergency? There can only be one explanation, in my opinion.

So we have other good news to report. Just a couple of weeks ago, I got my attorney to take their situation of yanking my license without making any charges, which is basically illegal, and he took it to a judge. The judge ruled in our favor, and the board actually just two weeks ago gave me back my license.


[00:26:36] Ashley James: Congratulations.


[00:26:38] Dr. Paul Thomas: Thank you. The loss of my license caused me to lose all health insurance contracts. I don’t have health insurance, I don’t have insurance contracts. I lost my board certification from both the Board of Addiction Medicine, the Academy of Pediatrics, and I haven’t worked for the last six months. It’s taken a huge toll on our practice. We’re still open. Thankfully I have four actually, but three mostly working in the trenches nurse practitioners who are doing an incredible job of taking care of the patients. But it’s not been easy.


[00:27:16] Ashley James: Wow. When we spoke, I thought you also had a few doctors and a Naturopath that worked with you.


[00:27:23] Dr. Paul Thomas: I did. You and I talked, at that point, there were 10 of us in the office. So we had a Naturopath who was just amazing. I think we were three doctors, five nurse practitioners, and a Naturopath, 10 in total. If you count me, we’re down to four with one nurse practitioner doing a tiny bit of fill-in here and there.


[00:27:47] Ashley James: I know with Washington state there’s some weird law where you have to be a doctor to employ doctors or something. I don’t quite understand it. Were they not allowed to be employed by the clinic because you lost your license? Why did they leave?


[00:28:04] Dr. Paul Thomas: Most of them left in fear.


[00:28:08] Ashley James: Oh my gosh.


[00:28:10] Dr. Paul Thomas: Yeah, they were targeting me and it looked like they were starting to target the practice. So, one of my nurse practitioners, just a lovely, lovely lady, oh my gosh, but she was young. She had gotten her PhD or whatever the doctorate level for nurse practitioners was. She had ambitions to teach. She just had to move on because it was just too risky for her career. I had another doctor who just left, it was just too risky for her career. She still had young children.

Yeah, it’s a lot of pressure that doctors who speak up for informed consent are—I mean, what’s happening in California, it’s just any doctor who’s written exemptions for vaccines is having to fight for their license. I mean, it’s like a witch hunt. 


[00:28:59] Ashley James: Wow. So I have a friend, actually, he’s a listener and we became friends. They contacted your office, but it wouldn’t make sense to have a medical exemption written in Oregon if he’s in California. But his son has had major problems, surgeries, and based on his history, of his past, and the kid is I think six now because he’s about the same age as my son. Just based on all of the health conditions he’s gone through and is currently going through, he’s a candidate for exemptions right now because his immune system is compromised, there are all these other things.

Because they’re in California, he can’t find anyone. If he were to go to any other state, a pediatrician would say, absolutely, this is not a candidate right now for a vaccine because he’s compromised. You’re saying there are effects. I don’t even like the term side effects. There are effects of certain medications, and when a person is compromised, those effects are more dramatic.


[00:30:13] Dr. Paul Thomas: Yeah. The problem is, somehow, pharma has captured the CDC. So the CDC makes recommendations, they also make money on vaccines, and they also are kind of a marketing arm in a real sense for vaccines based on what data they choose to collect and then what data they choose to publish. But the CDC has never done any of the research that’s necessary to answer the question as I did, for example, comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated.

Your friend that was hoping for an exemption, I would actually guess that 90% something, close to 100% of pediatricians would not write an exemption even though it sounds like there’s pretty strong evidence that that would be a mistake to vaccinate that child with all that’s going on, either because they truly believe vaccines are safe and effective. They, in a way, drank the Kool-Aid. I mean, they’re just not doing their own research, or in this day and age, it’s career suicide. I mean, if you write medical exemptions, you’re waving a big old flag to the medical board, come get me. Unless you’re close to retirement, that’s just not an option for a young doctor who’s trying to build a career and maybe feed their family.


[00:31:39] Ashley James: Wow. That’s actually something I wanted to bring up was talking about safety testing. But first, I wanted to point out, I loved that near the end of our interview back in 2018 episode 224, you shared a story.

At that time in February, it’s the tail end of “flu season.” And at the time, I’m up in Washington state. So in the pacific northwest, we had a really bad flu outbreak. My family didn’t get it, but in all of the clinics, all of the hospitals, it was like a four or five-hour wait. They were just full. And down in Oregon as well, you guys had four to five-hour waits in the emergency rooms and clinics were just full.

We got hit really badly with some form of influenza and you said to me, last Friday, our clinic closed early because we didn’t get one phone call. I think you said 10,000 patients, not one phone call from 10,000 patients saying my son Johnny has a fever and sniffles, I need to come in or what should I do? You didn’t get one phone call from all your patients.

About 50% of your practice I think you said was unvaccinated and the other percentage would follow not the CDC schedule but would follow what’s laid out in your book, which is one at a time, wait and see, how does the kid react. And then I said, well, what do you guys do for the unvaccinated children for those that choose to not do it? What do parents do to help keep a child healthy?

And you say, well, all my patients take vitamin D. They all get outside into the sunlight, get fresh air, and exercise. They all eat very clean, very healthy fruits and vegetables. I think you went down a list of everything that regardless of vaccine status, you make sure they all follow these guidelines. 


[00:33:48] Dr. Paul Thomas: Well, they’re recommended. I’m not sure how well— 


[00:33:52] Ashley James: They’re followed?


[00:33:54] Dr. Paul Thomas: Yeah. Lifestyle is tough, right?


[00:33:55] Ashley James: It is.


[00:33:57] Dr. Paul Thomas: For adults, you’re supposed to exercise, not drink, eat healthy, and you get your sleep, and how many of us are perfect on that? But no, you’re absolutely right. To this day, I have two waiting rooms—a well and a sick side—because at my old practice, before I started this one, there was this one giant waiting room and it was always like three quarters filled with sick kids, and you have these little well babies and well kids sitting amongst coughing, sneezing, a snotty nose, feverish kids, something. This is not good. You’re exposing healthy kids to so much stuff. I mean, it’s like, stay away from the pediatric office.

So I set this up with two separate completely separate waiting rooms. Our sick waiting room almost never has anybody in it. It was true back then, and of course, it’s really been true with quarantine. Quarantine, for sure for most practices, reduced the volume of visits just in general. How much of that was just people wouldn’t come in for fear of being exposed to somebody with COVID, or that they truly weren’t sick? I think it’s a little bit of both. I mean, the fact that people were not in school, we know as a pediatrician, once school opens, just give it a few weeks and we get busy. The states that had no direct student contact schooling, so if it was completely at homeschooling, it definitely reduced illness. 

But the other thing that happened with COVID is we had what I’m going to call diagnostic substitution. So, traditionally, in the United States, the CDC has reported there’s, oh, I would say from 30,000 to 60,000 cases of influenza in the US per year. As a practicing busy pediatrician, I can tell you that probably at most 10% of those cases were actually influenza. It’s usually less than 5%, but definitely no more than 10%. How can I say that? 

Well, it’s reported by the CDC that’s the case. But when we get a really sick kid in the winter and they’ve got a cough, fever, maybe a little sore throat, body aches, a flu-like illness, today you would call it COVID, probably not even see them. You don’t want to bring that patient into the office, you just assume it’s COVID. But back then, before COVID, you would bring these sickest kids in to figure out what’s going on because they could have bacterial pneumonia and there are antibiotics for that. So you want to know who needs to be treated or are they so sick they need to be in the hospital. Maybe they have a requirement for oxygen.

So, those sickest kids, the last few years we were doing something called a recipe path where you would actually swab the nose and send that off to test for maybe 20 different most common things that would cause an infection in the kid. And it would include influenza a, influenza b, rhinovirus, and the various cold viruses, even coronaviruses on that panel before COVID came around, the bacterial causes, et cetera. And that’s why I know at the height of flu season back then, 5% to 10% max.

So now, I’ll bet you it’s similar to COVID even though it can be a very devastating illness for those who are high risk, it’s no big deal for kids. So if a kid comes in with flu-like symptoms, if we could test them for COVID and use a proper test, not the PCR test that’s high cycles of amplification, we can talk about that. That’s giving so many false positives. But if we had a real test, those with a flu-like, COVID-like illness, I’ll bet you it’s less than 5% who are actually COVID. We just changed. 

So, now all the people that used to be labeled as flu because that supported the flu shot campaign, now we’re labeling them as COVID because that supports the COVID shot campaign. The truth of the matter is do that panel of 20 tests and you’ve got some mycoplasma in there, you got some pneumococcus, you got some rhinovirus, some adenovirus, some different coronavirus. You’ve got RSV, parainfluenza, pertussis, influenza a, influenza b. There’s a long list of things that are causing that person’s symptoms, but we don’t bother to figure it out anymore. Right now you just said, stay home until you get better. If you get really bad, go to the hospital. That’s not good medicine, folks. 


[00:38:31] Ashley James: That kind of blows my mind because we’re told “flu season,” it’s just a bunch of influenza and that’s it. But really, it’s only ever been 5% to 10% percent and the other infections are different bacteria or viruses. That marketing, that’s right, we’re marketed to.

I remember when the flu shot came out, I was a teenager. I grew up in Canada and the marketing was big. It was all happy people dancing in a field and downhill skiing. Get the flu shot, prevent the flu. And I even got the shot, I think I was 19. I got it at my chiropractor’s office of all things. She was so excited. Free flu shots or maybe it was $25, I don’t remember. She was so excited, it was so innovative. It was so new. And my mom and I never got sick. I don’t know why we were excited about the flu shot. I guess we totally bought the marketing, but my mom and I never ever got the flu ever. I don’t even remember having the flu my entire life.

And then after that shot, my mom and I were so sick. We turned to each other about a week later and said never again are we going to get this shot. This is ridiculous. What were we thinking? I started to go, that’s interesting. It made me question a little bit. And then when my mom was dying in the hospital of a medication the week before she died—she was in the hospital for the last two weeks of her life and I was there with her. I had the radio on and they announced on the news that the medication she had been on that her doctor feared her into taking. It was a synthetic estrogen.

Her doctor said, if you don’t take this, your bones are going to be brittle and you’re just going to break a hip and die, basically. I remember my mom who was the strongest woman I knew came home in tears crying, leaning to get on this medication because her doctor told her she was going to have brittle bones and die if she didn’t take it. And then a few years later, she’s dying in the hospital of cancer, and it was this drug that was taken off the market for causing an insane amount of cancer in women. The doctor that prescribed it got cancer too because she was on it because. She believed the marketing.


[00:40:56] Dr. Paul Thomas: Yeah, doctors believe it themselves.


[00:40:59] Ashley James: Right, they do. I mean, they have conviction around it as well. Something in my brain switched and I’m like, I was raised to blindly trust the marketing, blindly trust it to get excited about drugs. Like, oh, this is going to make me better, this is going to help me.

If I have an infection, I can’t fight it naturally, and it’s getting bad, then yes, I want allopathic medicine at my side. But when we go to a doctor with symptoms that are symptoms of nutrient deficiency, symptoms of lifestyle issues, and we’re put on medication after medication after medication, this is a system that’s failing us, especially when we look at statistically the number one and two and three causes of death in the United States. These things aren’t getting better, and we’re medicating them more and more and more and they’re not getting better.

I have interviewed so many holistic-minded doctors who have amazing results, like you do with your patients, who have outstanding results, and have published these results with reversing chronic illness and preventing disease with natural medicine. So, in my mind, it’s like, if I could help the listeners to think critically and not buy the marketing. I don’t want to say never get X drug. The whole black and white thing, that doesn’t work either, it’s dogmatic.

But they’re being dogmatic and saying always blindly trust this and take it, and I’m saying use critical thinking. Definitely read Dr. Paul Thomas’s book, use critical thinking, and look at his studies and see that we need to question everything we put into our body. People will question a supplement. You recommend a supplement, they’ll be like, well, who manufactured it? What are the safety studies? But then they’ll just go and blindly trust a doctor with a medication. We have to use critical thinking with everything. Where our food comes from too nowadays.


[00:43:12] Dr. Paul Thomas: Oh my goodness, absolutely.


[00:43:13] Ashley James: There’s GMO potato. I had a whole episode with Jeffrey Smith who’s an advocate for non-GMO, and he talked about apples and potatoes are now GMO. It’s not just corn and soy. These things are having major health problems. It’s destroying the bacteria of the gut, the microbiome of the gut. The microbiome of the gut produces our serotonin. It actually helps convert some of our thyroid, I think it’s T4 into T3.

If we don’t have a healthy microbiome, we begin to just lose health on all fronts, and GMOs are causing that. Not to go off on a tangent, but just to say that we really need to question everything and educate ourselves on everything we put in our body—clean water, clean food. Even when it comes to medication and supplements, we have to do our own footwork basically.

What always, I guess, confused me, we were told that vaccines are safe because they’re tested. There must be safety studies, right? I mean, drugs are tested for years. My mom died of this, so every drug that was approved to be given to patients in Canada, in the states, any country—I’m going to use the FDA as an example for America—but every drug that’s been taken off the market for doing harm was also first approved. So, these drugs that have then been rescinded, the drug that was rescinded off the market for killing my mother and killing other women was approved at one point. We have to remember that.

Just that alone, we should start to just question things more instead of blindly follow them. But in my mind, I always thought that vaccines were tested. Aren’t they safety tested for years like drugs are safety tested, and don’t they do double-blind studies because that’s their thing, right? Double-blind studies. And then I heard somewhere that vaccines are not safety tested with double-blind placebo studies. They don’t do a placebo that’s inert. Can you explain that?

What I mean is, you think they’re injecting water or saline solution into someone’s arm and they’re the placebo trial, and then they’re injecting the actual vaccine to the other person. But that’s not the case. If they were to take people and just inject saline versus a vaccine, then they actually might show the negative effects like you said with VAERS, the negative effects far outweigh the inert placebo. How do they “do safety tests”? How do they study safety before they release it to the public?


[00:46:21] Dr. Paul Thomas: Awesome question. The problem with vaccine science and research when it comes to safety testing is they have very cleverly gotten completely away from using a true placebo, which would be an injection of just saltwater, saline which is at the same concentration as your blood or plasma. On one group you would have the vaccine, and on the other group you would have saline.

The trick they use is in the case of aluminum, which we know is extremely problematic, they’ll just give aluminum instead of saline, and then the vaccine will be the vaccine antigen plus the aluminum. Their side effects are, look, oh they’re the same, therefore the vaccine’s safe. I call that tobacco science.

So for example. Ashley. why don’t you smoke one pack a day, I’m going to smoke two packs a day, and we’ll have a third group smoke none. We’ll see who died in a week. Nobody died, so it’s safe. That highlights the second problem with vaccine research, which is the duration of the study. How long do they follow these people is very short, much too short to pick anything up other than a little redness at the injection site. That’s why they say, oh, it’s one in a million to have bad side effects except of course you’re going to get a little redness where you got your shot and it’ll be a little sore. They completely intentionally don’t look for long-term side effects.

Autoimmunity and allergies take years sometimes to develop. They’re never going to pick that up. They don’t use a proper placebo, they’re not double-blind controlled studies, and they’re not long enough. That whole phenomenon creates a situation where really, oh, a couple of other huge things because the belief almost like religion is that vaccines are safe and effective, they don’t look at all health outcomes. They only look for a few things that they know are known side effects from vaccines.

So, in my research, for example, they would never be looking for asthma, behavioral issues, ADD, ADHD, allergies, breathing problems, ear infections, ear pain, or eczema. They don’t recognize these things as related to vaccines. If you don’t look, you don’t find it. The trials are set up specifically to look at a certain set of things, and then they shut off the trials before there’s a chance for there to be any difference in the two groups. They can say look, the two groups are similar so the vaccines are safe.

There’s another problem. If you are funding a study. So I’m a pharmaceutical company let’s say and I’m going to study product X. Let’s say I set it all up, I want to show that product X is going to help you live healthier. We get going with this study and it’s not going well. It’s not looking like this study is going to help. Generally, we’re just going to abandon that research. This research isn’t working, we must have designed it wrong. We’re not going to do this research. Sometimes they’ll even get to the point of publication and why would they publish it? It’s going to harm their product.

The people funding the research obviously have a desire for a certain outcome. When they get the outcome they like, they publish it, if they don’t, they often don’t publish it. Worse than that, pharma money has infiltrated the academic institutions, universities, all the PhDs who are doing research in their labs have to apply for grants so they can fund their research. Most of these grants are coming from somehow pharmaceutical money. You don’t get a grant unless you’re researching something that they’re interested in. They have never ever, ever yet funded a true vaxxed-unvaxxed study. This is why my published study is so important because there was no funding. We just did this.

The next set of problems comes. If you ever get something published, which we did with a very rigorous peer review process, they try to get it retracted. And in fact, we are right now under review. Somebody complained and said, well, our methodology is new, it’s not valid. Well, the reason they were complaining is we did it the old way, which is do you have the disease or not right? So if we looked at asthma, ADHD, autism, or whatever, it was just a yes, no. That’s how most research is done.

Well, what we did in this research is we looked at every single diagnosis even how many times it happened. So, if you’re in the study and you’re seen once in your lifetime for an asthma attack, compare that to a child who’s had 20 visits for an asthma attack. That shows an increased severity. The way we designed this study, we did it the old way, we analyzed it that way, and it was significant in a few things. But when you look at severity, it’s highly significant. So we also published this as sort of a shot across the bow for future researchers saying look at all health outcomes and look at all visits so you can pick up severity.

It’s a really clever design, but it’s new. People who want to try to discredit research, they don’t want anything new if it’s going to show what they’re trying to protect in a bad light.


[00:51:53] Ashley James: That’s amazing. I like your way much better because it shows the severity. That makes so much sense. Instead of this black or white, they have it or they don’t have it, well, how many times did they have that incident occur over a period of time shows the severity. That makes so much more sense.


[00:52:14] Dr. Paul Thomas: Yeah, exactly.


[00:52:16] Ashley James: You really spent the extra time to go into it. I love that that guy came in believing one thing and then the numbers don’t lie. The numbers don’t lie.


[00:52:29] Dr. Paul Thomas: It’s data, and when people take offense to data that’s been peer-reviewed and well researched—what’s so ironic is that as we pointed out at the beginning of this interview, this was the data they asked for. They sure didn’t like what they found.

We also published another study that I’ll just mention, it’s a short little paper. Well, it’s actually not that short, but it’s called Vaccine Practice Payment Schedules Create Perverse Incentives for Unnecessary Medical Procedures – at What Cost to Patients? So this was published in the International Journal of Vaccine Theory, Practice, and Research.

Basically, what we did was I took a month’s worth of data from my practice back in August, September a year ago, and we looked at every single superbill. In other words, everybody that walked through the door for that month, and on the back of my super bills, I have a vaccine refusal form. Because we’re so meticulous about documenting informed consent that anytime vaccines are discussed, we flip the superbill over, it’s just a piece of paper that we click off what we’re doing that day so the billing people can double-check they bill appropriately for what was done. That’s all our superbill is.

So on the one side, say they got a CBC to check for anemia, or they got a breathing treatment for asthma, we just check off what we’ve done. And then on the flip side though is this checklist of all the vaccines that we could possibly give. We go through and say, well, looking at your vaccine status, you’re behind on this vaccine. Here’s what other pediatricians would tell you to do so that you’re following the CDC schedule, and the patients either agree to do them or they refuse them.

So we had the ability to actually tabulate which vaccines were given for an entire month by which company because some insurance companies pay better than others. I mean, this was real-world data. The vaccines that were accepted and done, and the vaccines that should have been done if you were following the CDC schedule but were refused. And then we extrapolated that for 12 months and learned that our practice of about 10,000 patients where we bill out about $3 million—well, before all this happened to me it was about $3 million. It’s dropped to about $2 million now. But our gross billings was about $3 million. We have 30 some employees. At that point, we had close to 10 providers.

For a practice billing out $3 million, we were losing over $1 million dollars in just administration fees. You can’t survive as a practice if you’re losing a quarter to a third of your overhead because pediatric practices run about 70%, 80% overhead. So, no wonder I haven’t been able to give my employees a raise. I think they got one raise in the last 10 years.

It is a service of love by everybody that’s working in my practice because we believe in what we’re doing, we’re helping kids. Money’s tight when you’re not getting vaccine money. If I’m leaving $1 million on the table for the last 13 years, that’s $13 million. My employees could have had nice raises and bonuses, and I’d probably be doing just fine, right? I’m the sole owner of this practice. I haven’t taken a paycheck in six months.

The vaccine compensation is set up in such a way that it is so enticing, and pediatricians deny this. I used to deny it. I used to say, oh, no, no. We don’t make any money on vaccines. That’s because the markup that most practices do on vaccines is very, very low. If I buy a vaccine for $100, I might charge you $103 or $105 for it. I’m not making a massive amount of profit on selling vaccines. But the insurance companies give you this payment, it’s called administration fee, and it’s over $1,000 in the first year of a baby’s life. One baby, I’m getting over $1,000 in just the administration fees by the time they’re age one.


[00:56:32] Ashley James: For keeping them on the CDC schedule?


[00:56:36] Dr. Paul Thomas: Yup, if you follow the CDC schedule.


[00:56:38] Ashley James: How many babies does a pediatrician typically have in their practice?


[00:56:42] Dr. Paul Thomas: Well, a busy pediatrician like I am, I would get about 30 babies a month. I’d say $5,000 to $10,000 maybe?


[00:56:51] Ashley James: So, it’s $5,000 to $10,000 a month, upwards of $30,000 a month if a pediatrician were to vaccinate 100% of their infants each month?


[00:57:03] Dr. Paul Thomas: That’s just the admin fee. You still get paid to see the patients.


[00:57:07] Ashley James: Oh yeah. But let’s say a pediatrician gives zero vaccines versus 100% of the CDC schedule. So pediatricians are incentivized, if they see only five to ten babies a month, it’s $5,000 to $10,000 a month in their pocket.


[00:57:25] Dr. Paul Thomas: Per year. No, that is per year.


[00:57:27] Ashley James: Per month, they see five to 10 new babies per month?


[00:57:33] Dr. Paul Thomas: Yes.


[00:57:33] Ashley James: So, if they see five to ten new babies per month, then it’s $5,000 to $10,000 a month.


[00:57:37] Dr. Paul Thomas: Oh, I see what you’re saying. Yeah. I see how you’re doing the math.


[00:57:42] Ashley James: If it’s 30,000 babies a month for you because you’re busy, then that’s $30,000 a month for keeping them on the CDC schedule versus a pediatrician who does informed consent and only attracts parents who wish not to vaccinate 100%. That is significant.


[00:57:42] Dr. Paul Thomas: It’s huge, and pediatricians deny that they’re incentivized by money. I think honestly, they don’t know. I just got this published this past year in October of 2020. Or wait a minute, when was this published? This was March of ‘21. That’s right, I knew it was more recent. We just got this published two, three months ago.

I don’t think pediatricians are aware that—here’s the reality in my town. Almost any other pediatrician will not see you unless you follow the CDC schedule. So, that is now a process that the Academy of Pediatrics is okay with ethically. In other words, you can kick people out of your practice if they won’t follow the CDC schedule. However, there is a little caveat. They have to have alternative care available.

So here’s the funny thing. They’re trying to take my license away because I’m honoring informed consent, but I’m the only place these people can go. So if they shut me down, they’re not going to be able to kick these people out. It’s kind of weird. Financially, they’re getting to benefit from getting rid of the patients that kind of costs you money. If you see patients and they’re not vaccinating, it’s actually costing you money because the overhead is so high.

So, let’s get these patients who aren’t getting us in the profits, let’s send them over to Dr. Paul at Integrative Pediatrics. We’ll keep the ones that are lucrative. They’re not thinking that way, but that is the reality.


[00:59:47] Ashley James: You got to imagine, some of them have figured it out.


[00:59:50] Dr. Paul Thomas: Maybe. I’ll tell you what, the office managers know. I remember back in my old office, back in the early 2000s when we figured out we were injecting too much mercury because a lot of the vaccines had mercury in there to prevent fungal infections in those vials. There was data accumulating that that was causing health problems and probably linked to certain cases of autism.


[01:00:15] Ashley James: Wait a second. Mercury is not healthy for you?


[01:00:19] Dr. Paul Thomas: It’s not. I think that was called mad hatter disease or something. Chimney sweeps would get too much mercury. No, mercury is not healthy for you. You’re absolutely right, Ashley. Good memory there. I mean, think about it, the old thermometers, you’re not old enough to remember.


[01:00:35] Ashley James: No, no, no. I went to Mexico with my family when I was a kid back in the ‘80s, ‘90s. They used to sell—I don’t know if they still do—this glass jewelry that had mercury in it and I had broken one and played with it. Because it was like the Terminator. Remember the guy would turn into mercury, and I was touching it and rolling it around playing with it. Oh yeah. mercury is not healthy. 


[01:01:02] Dr. Paul Thomas: Mercury is a liquid metal but it is not good for you. Anyway, where was I going with that?


[01:01:12] Ashley James: You figured out on the mercury.


[01:01:14] Dr. Paul Thomas: I know what it was. I went to my office manager and I said, I heard they were going to get the mercury out of the vaccines. So I went to my office manager at the time and I said, as soon as we get options to get the vaccines that don’t have mercury, please, please let’s get those instead of the mercury ones. And she said to me, Well, they just became available, but are you willing to pay the $6,000 extra it’s going to cost to buy the newer, more expensive ones because your partners aren’t willing?

At that time, I was a younger pediatrician with a huge family to feed, and no, I couldn’t do that. They wanted me to pay for the difference for everybody. So we kept on using the inferior vaccine until they were no longer available. And that was an economic decision. And unfortunately, pediatrics and medicine, in general, is a business, just as pharmaceutical companies are a business. Sometimes, you’re making decisions that are more important for your business bottom line than are really in the absolute best interest of your patients.

And so, folks, if you’re listening, parents, if we’re talking about making vaccine decisions for your children, you’re the last hope that your child has that you will save them, that you will protect them. They don’t have a choice. You take them to a pediatrician, the pediatrician says this is what you should do. And if you’re not protecting them, if you’re not doing your research, then unfortunately, they are at the mercy of the system.

You are so right, Ashley, earlier to point out this is a sick care system. It’s not a wellness system. Our bodies are naturally capable of being very healthy if we stay away from toxins. You mentioned it near the beginning: drink filtered water, don’t eat pesticides and herbicides, make sure you’ve got non-GMO, if possible organic food, and avoid injected toxins, which are your vaccines.

I’m not telling anybody what to do with vaccines. This is just an educational and informational conversation we’re having here. But folks, look into it. When you really look at the research, vaccines are not safe. They’re borderline effective, depending on which vaccine. And exercise, take vitamin D. You cannot get enough unless you’re living at the equator with your clothes off.


[01:03:40] Ashley James: I’d love to do that. Let’s go to the equator and eat mangoes naked.


[01:03:44] Dr. Paul Thomas: Wouldn’t that be nice? Yeah, that sounds good to me. Count me in. I never could bring myself to go to those nude beaches. But yeah, it sounds like a good thing anyway. So, there are things we can do to be healthy. And mostly it’s just letting nature the way it was beautifully designed to keep you healthy.

If you want to pivot a little bit more to COVID, I do want to talk about it a little bit.


[01:04:09] Ashley James: Yeah. All right. So, we were doing a catch-up on everything that happened since our last interview. I love everything you’ve discussed so far. I did see a few times on Facebook you talking about masking children. And, that’s been something that is so cringy to me. I’d love for you to touch on that at some point.


[01:04:35] Dr. Paul Thomas: Sure. So the mask issue I can touch on quite simply. Masks, the medical ones that we use in hospitals, were not designed to prevent viral particles from going back and forth. They were designed to make sure the surgeon doesn’t sneeze on the operating field, drool, or whatever. To try to keep the operating field where you clean the belly. Let’s say you’re doing an abdominal surgery, you clean it really well, scrub, scrub, Betadine, drape it with sterile drapes, and then you’re cutting the abdomen open. You don’t want a surgeon leaning over and sneezing or dripping into the surgical site. I mean, that’s the purpose of those masks.

They are very ineffective at preventing viruses of the size of COVID, the SARS-CoV-2 virus that causes COVID-19. That virus can get through those masks so easily it’s kind of a joke to think that’s going to protect you.


[01:05:37] Ashley James: It’s like a bumblebee flying through a chain-link fence.


[01:05:40] Dr. Paul Thomas: Exactly. And certainly, if you’re talking about the cloth masks, it definitely is like a fly or a bumblebee going through a chain-link fence. It’s just completely almost worthless. In fact, it’s probably worse than worthless because what you’re doing is you’re creating moisture that’s trapping things. And so you may actually be creating more risk for yourself than benefit. So, that being said, if I was a very high risk person and I was truly scared of coronavirus, COVID-19, SARS-CoV-2 virus, I would probably wear N95 and the face shield when I was going to be in close proximity to other people.

So, if you are yourself afraid, there’s something you can do and do it. I mean, if that’s going to help you be able to go shopping, put on an N95, make sure it fits nice and tight, and put a face shield over that and I think you’ll be fine. Except be careful to wash your hands before you touch anything that’s going back home with you because I think the virus does have capability of going from your hands, then you touch your face or whatever, and you get it onto yourself. So, that’s masks.

Children don’t need them for a couple of reasons. One, they don’t work. Well, lots of reasons. Two, they’re more risky than they’re beneficial. Most studies are showing that. So, there’s plenty of garbage studies that show benefits, folks. Remember, that’s pharma trick. Whoever’s got an agenda, we want people to mask up, can fund a study that will show benefit. It’s so easy to do studies like that. But good studies show that they’re not only mostly worthless, but they’re actually probably causing more harm than good.

One of the harms that has not been well studied, I think I’ve read one or two articles about this is when you mask up children and now they’re not being exposed to facial expressions, to smiles—I mean, we’re social creatures. We’re supposed to be interacting in a loving, supportive way with one another. You become a little robot almost. And then you add the fact that we’ve kept kids at home in front of screens.

Before COVID hit, my number one problem in teenagers was anxiety and depression, it was triggered by screens. I mean, that was crystal clear to me. Now we add COVID, isolation, and so much more screen time, and we wonder why we’re having increases in ADD, anxiety, suicides. It’s a disaster. Now, when we know that children—unless they happen to have severe underlying medical conditions—most children, their risk of dying from COVID is less than 1 in 100,000. I mean, they just don’t get seriously ill. Of course, the news is going to report those rare cases and get everybody afraid. So fear is what they’re selling.

The strategy was, we’re going to mask everybody up, we’re going to isolate everybody, and get them so tired of it that when we come through with a vaccine as the savior, they’re going to line up, and it’s worked. I mean, we’re getting so many people vaccinated. And it’s truly tragic, especially now that they’re starting to target children. Parents, the science is in, it’s crystal clear. You’re not hearing it on the news, however, because the news has already been bought and paid for.

You can go to The Highwire, Del Bigtree, his show. You can go to my show, Against the Wind: Doctors & Science Under Fire. You can go to the Children’s Health Defense and look at their daily news called The Defender and get all the science and all the information you need to understand that oh my Lord, the science has been done. This is a very dangerous vaccine. It probably is time. Dr. McCullough was on my show twice already. He’s a mainstream doctor, that’s probably the most published physician in the United States who’s also treating COVID. He’s now calling for the program to be abandoned. That this is no longer safe for humans.

So, we’re at a turning point, and it’s not too late to save the children. If you’ve already gotten this vaccine, I don’t want you to be afraid because fear does not help your immune system. So, if you’ve already gotten the vaccine and you start to have any new symptom, don’t discount it as being unrelated to the vaccine. Just see a physician or healthcare provider who understands natural healing processes. You’ll see we give at the end of my show, every two weeks, I’ve got the show. Just go to At the very end of each show, we give you resources. And you can use those same resources that are to treat a COVID-19 infection to treat the side effects.

The spike protein in this vaccine is what’s causing the mischief. You can get exposed to the spike protein from the infection, but you also get exposed from the vaccine. My best guess is we’re going to have an interesting fall and winter. I have a feeling based on what I’m reading in the research is it appears that those who have gotten the vaccine are actually going to be at greater risk of problems than those who did not. Just like my data showed, natural immunity appears to be superior.

So, whether it’s a new strain that comes through, they’re having trouble in India, England, and across different parts of the world with new variants they’re calling them. I think the unvaccinated will do much better against new variants than the vaccinated, although time will tell, right? But the good news is there are treatments that work whether you’re vaccinated or unvaccinated, so don’t despair. But please, if you’re a parent, they are pushing hard on the teenagers. I’m hearing stories already of peer pressure, big peer pressure, to get the vaccine.


[01:11:44] Ashley James: The universities are saying that they have to vaccinate if they want to attend class.


[01:11:51] Dr. Paul Thomas: Yeah. The pressure is immense. They’re now talking about rolling out passports. Vaccine passports, to me, are like apartheid South Africa. I grew up in Southern Africa as a kid, and if you are white, you could move about freely, you had total access to the country. If you were not white, you had to carry papers just like a passport. If you didn’t have your papers, you couldn’t enter certain parts of cities. That’s where we’re headed with the vaccine. Don’t call it a vaccine passport, call it a slavery passport. I mean, it is ridiculous.

The least risky people are those who aren’t vaccinated, okay. This is clear from my research on all illnesses, but it’s becoming clear with COVID as well. So, it’s the unvaccinated who should be given free rein, you’re at no risk from them, or let’s not say no risk. That was an exaggeration. There’s risk everywhere, but less risk because the unvaccinated are not as likely to get sick. Their immune systems are going to keep them healthier.

And you know what? COVID-19 illness is real and it can be fatal, it can be serious, so I’m not trying to tell people to be reckless. But it’s not a big deal for kids. They can go to school with no masks, no shields, just go to school. I mean, if it appears that natural infection will give you long-lasting immunity, that will be much more robust than the immunity you get from vaccines.


[01:13:25] Ashley James: Well, that’s right. There are three studies that I know of, and I’m sure more will come up. But there are three studies recently that show that if you’ve had the coronavirus, the COVID-19, that you have lifelong immunity. They even did a study where they took samples of bone marrow and found that months and months and months later, the antibodies were there. The media has told us that you only have three months of protection. If you’ve naturally had wild COVID-19, that in three months, you could get it again, and then another three months you could get it again.


[01:14:10] Dr. Paul Thomas: No.


[01:14:11] Ashley James: But this is what people have been told.


[01:14:13] Dr. Paul Thomas: That’s not true, and the other truth is that those who have had natural infection are actually at greater risk of vaccine side effects.


[01:14:23] Ashley James: Really? Why is that? Do you know why?


[01:14:24] Dr. Paul Thomas: I had a guest on my show who went through that fairly well a while back. He’s a strong proponent for test before you vaccinate. I mean, we have enough testing capability now. So, anybody who’s going to get a vaccine should be tested to make sure they don’t already have antibodies because we’re just simply seeing more reactions. And I think what it is, they call it pathogenic priming. And somehow, having been exposed to that virus before, you already have some immune capability to respond, actually, a very robust capability to respond. And then if you get the vaccine, which is such a massive dose of spike protein and you’re already primed to respond to it, you can have this massive inflammatory response. It’s an unnatural trigger, right?

If you get a natural infection, you just get a few little antigens coming in through your nose, your immune system, boom, knocks it out before it becomes a big deal. If you get a vaccine with a massive exposure to spike protein and you’ve got the capability to respond to that, you need a massive response, so I think it’s related to that.

I did want to cover two things. I want to talk about PCR testing, and I also want to talk about absolute risk reduction and relative risk reduction. So, let’s cover those two things because they are critical to understanding what’s going on.


[01:15:47] Ashley James: I want to cover those. Before we cover those, just wrap up the last topic. You talked about spike protein and people can have reactions to it, regardless of if it’s of through a vaccine, or through natural immunity, or naturally having COVID-19. If someone’s had COVID and they’ve had the spike protein in them, how long until it’s out of them? You mentioned that you have some resources for supporting the body around that. Is this something that we should be watching for problems with spike protein like six months after an infection, or is this only days or weeks after the infection?


[01:16:30] Dr. Paul Thomas: I’m not going to claim to be an expert to answer that question with every authoritative piece of science. I’ve done my best to keep up, but boy, it’s coming fast. I have read that two weeks after a vaccine, you can find spike protein in the blood. I’ve read that for longer than that, after a natural infection, you can find SARS-CoV-2 in the stool. So, some people, I think it’s around 10% of people who get diarrhea, and that virus is present in the stool longer. So, that’s speaking to natural infection. The other study was speaking to the presence of this in the blood in a vaccinated person.

There are these reports—I think we’ll hear more in the very near future—of vaccinated people somehow being able to transmit the spike protein to unvaccinated people. And, so I get a lot of questions about that. I don’t know quite what to tell people because it’s just starting to come out. It’s something that’s just starting to be discovered and researched, but it appears that that can happen. I’m not exactly sure of the mechanism. But it’s one of those things where if you’ve been vaccinated, maybe for a couple of weeks you don’t go around your unvaccinated loved ones. Just a thought. I mean, I don’t have enough hard science to say that’s a firm recommendation. It’s just a thought.


[01:18:08] Ashley James: I’ve heard that. There’s a lot of anecdotal stories out there. So it’ll be interesting to see the studies as the science comes out. I hate that term, the science is settled.


[01:18:23] Dr. Paul Thomas: Oh, it’s never settled.


[01:18:24] Ashley James: You know what, dogma, religion is settled.


[01:18:28] Dr. Paul Thomas: Even that.


[01:18:30] Ashley James: But the idea that science is something that’s constantly moving, the target’s constantly changing. We’re constantly learning new things. We’re constantly disproving hypotheses and disproving old studies. The science is settled is a marketing term, is a brainwashing term.


[01:18:50] Dr. Paul Thomas: Yeah, it’s a brainwashing term. I was just reading a report. Dr. Kelly Sutton is an MD who wrote some exemptions in California and she’s on trial right now. It started yesterday. And the report was the other side, the people that are trying to take away her license, their attorney was able to silence several complaints by saying, well, that science has been settled. And so, it’s that same thing, we’re not going to go there, it’s been settled.

What’s so ridiculous about that is just think about it folks. Kids born today are so different from their grandparents in terms of the world they’re growing up in. Their grandparents got zero or one or two vaccines. They’ve had 72 vaccines by the time they graduate from high school. They’ve had 40 by the time they’re in school. They live in a world that’s got all this glyphosate, pesticides, and herbicides, and it’s just a different toxic world. You cannot compare the science that was done generations ago to what’s going to happen to a kid today.

Just like with vaccines, most research is done on people who’ve already had so many of them. And so when they’re adding one more and going, see, it hasn’t made anything worse. But you don’t know because you’re not comparing them to an unvaccinated person.


[01:20:15] Ashley James: Okay. The spike protein causes inflammation in the body. Is that also what’s causing the increase of blood clots, especially in healthy people that never had an issue of blood clotting before?


[01:20:29] Dr. Paul Thomas: Yeah, it seems to be definitely the trigger of that. Again, I’m not the scientist that should describe the exact biochemistry or biology of how that happens, but yes, they are definitely related.


[01:20:43] Ashley James: And I definitely urge listeners to go back and watch the previous episodes of your show where this has been discussed. What was the name of the doctor again that talked about it on your show?


[01:20:54] Dr. Paul Thomas: Dr. McCullough.


[01:20:56] Ashley James: Dr. McCullough. Okay, so we can go check out that episode for more information as well, and follow Dr. McCullough’s work as well to get more information if listeners are interested. Okay, you want to talk about PCR tests, right?


[01:21:09] Dr. Paul Thomas: Yes, please. So, when this epidemic started rolling out, none of us knew what was going on. And the main form of testing—especially in the United States, but in a lot of places around the world—was using PCR, polymerase chain reaction testing. This testing has this methodology where they call it amplification. So you throw your sample through a number of cycles of testing, each time you’re analyzing a more dilute sample to try to detect the most minute amount of material. I’ve read two published studies out of Europe that are both showing the same finding that’s just absolutely conclusive and important to understand.

So at somewhere around 13 to 17, or 18 cycles of amplification, if you get a positive test, they can actually grow the SARS-CoV-2 virus. So, in other words, that PCR represents a real virus being there. Think about it on a graph and up to 13,14, 15, 16 cycles, you’re getting a positive culture 100% of the time. Now, as you get into 30 cycles, you’re down to like, I don’t know, 20% of the time you could actually grow a virus. 

By the time you get to 34, 35 cycles of PCR amplification, you never grow a virus, it is just noise. And this is why you’ve been able to get positive tests on healthy people who there’s absolutely nothing going on. They don’t have the virus, it’s just genetic noise. They never are able to grow the virus. So, guess what the cycles that are being used in the United States until very recently, how many cycles of amplification are they using?


[01:23:04] Ashley James: How many?


[01:23:05] Dr. Paul Thomas: Thirty-five to 40, sometimes more than 40. And at 35 to 40, you have a 97% chance that it’s a false positive. In other words, that positive test, it’s not COVID.


[01:23:17] Ashley James: Wait, 97% of the time it was a false positive?


[01:23:22] Dr. Paul Thomas: A false positive.


[01:23:23] Ashley James: Are these the cases that they reported to us every day in the news for the last year and a half to fear us?


[01:23:29] Dr. Paul Thomas: You got it. So, it’s a case epidemic, not a COVID epidemic. And then the death numbers are equally amplified because anybody that dies, if they’re in any way connected to a health system which is where most people die, you get sick—


[01:23:47] Ashley James: Heart attack, stroke.


[01:23:48] Dr. Paul Thomas: Well, it doesn’t matter what. Motor vehicle accident—oh, nursing homes. If you die of old age and you test and it’s positive—and remember, 97% of the positives in many instances is false, it isn’t COVID—it gets labeled as death with COVID. It wasn’t from COVID, but it’s with COVID and it gets counted. There are ample reports of this going on.

The other phenomenon that’s jacked up the numbers is that you can get tested multiple times, the same person. So if I’m positive and I go back for another test, I go back for another test because I’m trying to get back to work or whatever reason, I need a negative. Each time I’m positive, that’s a case. In most states, the system doesn’t differentiate, oh, that’s the same person. They’re just reporting positive tests. We have this scare tactic, fear tactics on all the channels of the news, the mainstream media of look at all these deaths, look at all these cases, and then we’ve got a vaccine for you that will solve the problem.

So let me move over to absolute risk reduction and relative risk reduction. Folks, if you get this, you will no longer live in fear. You can set yourself free, walk outside without a mask, which by the way, there are states—I have one of my nurse practitioners who just came to help out from Ohio and nobody’s wearing a mask indoors or outdoors. Florida is the same way. There are several states where masks are a thing of the past.

I’m in Oregon, and I was just at the Oregon Zoo with my grandson, and it felt like 95% of people outside were walking around with masks. So, why is it so different? Is the virus just so much more dangerous in Oregon? No. Oregon has one of the lowest rates in the country. We have fear. Our government, our governor, and our health department have done a masterful job of making sure that everybody is scared out of their wits. It’s a fear campaign.

But here’s the trickery. It’s unconscionable that that reporter can report what they do and not be aware of this fact. So the studies that Pfizer and Madonna did that showed their vaccine was 96% effective, 90% effective, you hear that on the news, right? Get this vaccine, it’s 90% effective or it’s 96% effective. What they’re talking about is a relative risk reduction. So I’m just going to average out numbers. I’m not giving you the exact numbers because I don’t have them in front of me right now. But take for example with Pfizer, and that initial study had 40,000 participants. So 20,000 people were given the vaccine, 20,000 were given saline, a placebo.


[01:26:31] Ashley James: Were they given an inert placebo, or were they given something with other antigens in it?


[01:26:38] Dr. Paul Thomas: I think in that one it was an inert placebo. But I know in some of the trials, they were actually given a different vaccine, which is just weird to me. They picked a really yucky vaccine for side effects and we’re going to give that instead. That will be the placebo, you get this vaccine. It’s like, oh my God, my point is this.

When they were about three months into it, I believe, when they stopped the study, as far as their numbers, there were about 200 cases of positive COVIDs. So out of 40,000 people, there were only 200 positives, and that’s when they stopped the analysis. They found that, wow, 96% of the positives were in the unvaccinated group. So of those 20,000 people who were unvaccinated, what was your risk of having a positive? It was about 1%.

Now the real risk reduction, so the absolute risk reduction, not the relative one. So the 96% was relative to the vaccinated, but the absolute risk was 1%. And what was that risk for? It was at risk for mild COVID symptoms—runny nose, cough, maybe fever. They didn’t look at hospitalizations, they didn’t look at deaths. So folks, would you like to take a vaccine that has about a 50-50 chance you’re going to have side effects, and maybe a 1 in 10 chance you’re going to have serious side effects, and maybe a 1 in 10,000—I don’t remember what the exact number is of death—when your chance of it helping you avoid mild symptoms is 1%. It makes absolutely no sense at all, but it’s never presented that way.

There was an actual mainstream journal, I’m trying to remember it. It was one of the biggies. Was it The Lancet, or The New England Journal, or JAMA—one of those big threes. They had an article titled The Elephant in the Room, and they talked about this very fact. They went through I think three or four of the major coronavirus companies—Moderna, Pfizer, and a couple of the other ones—and they pointed out the percentage of real risk reduction, actual risk reduction (ARD) was around 1% or less. And they’re going, what’s going on. It’s the elephant in the room, nobody’s speaking the actual truth of what’s actually going on.

So, that’s why I get a little frustrated when the narrative is so off. It is just fear-mongering. Especially when it comes to kids, folks. They are just not at risk from this disease, and the risk of the vaccine is just pretty horrendous. I mean, now we’re getting all these heart inflammation reports that are real.

A good friend of mine is writing an article about that, actually, it’s my co-author for my book, The Vaccine-Friendly Plan, Jennifer Margulis. She’s a really good investigative reporter. She says, can you tell me, Dr. Paul, you’ve been doing pediatrics for a long time. How common are pericarditis and myocarditis? So this is the inflammation around the heart or of the heart. I have seen zero cases in my career.


[01:29:57] Ashley James: And how many patients have you seen in your career would you guess?


[01:30:01] Dr. Paul Thomas: Oh my God, 100,000, I don’t know? I mean, we have 10,000 patients, I don’t see them all because I have a team. I mean, if you take everybody over 30 years, 10,000 patients times 30 years, that’s a lot of patients who some of them are the same patients year to year, but it’s a lot. I mean, it’s a massive number of patients, and zero.


[01:30:26] Ashley James: Had you known anyone or have heard a colleague talk about, I treated this condition today.


[01:30:35] Dr. Paul Thomas: No, my co-author’s husband got pericarditis before COVID came around. And it’s so rare that he had to be seen up at OHSU, the Oregon Health Science University for Oregon. Rare complicated things, you end up there. I mean, they had the top of the top people in the country consulting to figure out what the heck is going on here. Some rare, I’m guessing autoimmune, they just give it a label that’s just a descriptor. You have inflammation around the heart, but nobody knows why.

We are aware that autoimmunity is a growing cause of a lot of chronic problems, and vaccines are definitely on the list of possible triggers for autoimmunity.


[01:31:20] Ashley James: One thing that you brought up in episode 224 when I first had you on the show—okay. When I was a kid, we didn’t get vaccines as an infant, as a newborn. They didn’t roll that out until—in Canada, they were giving the Hep B. I remember I was in high school, so it’s the late ‘90s. I would be first in line. I was like, oh, their marketing was so good. I rolled up my sleeve, I ran up because I’m not afraid of needles. 

I’m so happy that I’m not into drugs and alcohol because I mean, I’m not afraid of needles. I might have been a heroin addict. If I was into drugs, I might have gone there because I’m like, I’m not afraid of needles and I wanted to prove how macho I am. I’m kind of a tomboy. I’m like, yeah, look at me, because all these kids are afraid and I’m like, I’m going to run up and I’m going to get this new Hepatitis.


[01:32:10] Dr. Paul Thomas: How old were you?


[01:32:10] Ashley James: I was in high school, it was in the late ‘90s. I just remember, they were like, oh, this is really great. And I’m like, okay. I mean, in Canada, it’s socialized medicine so their marketing is more about let’s keep costs down by keeping everyone healthy and preventing illness. But in the States, was it 2005 that they started to say, we’re going to give a vaccine that we’ve only previously ever given sex workers, drug addicts, nurses, and those that basically get exposed to this. We’ve never given it out to the public as a common vaccine, and all of a sudden now 100% of the population, the moment they come out of their mother, we’re going to give it to them. Was it around 2005? Was that it?


[01:33:02] Dr. Paul Thomas: A little bit earlier. Your recollection is correct, though. My kids are around your age as well, my oldest ones. I was following the CDC schedule for my kids. They got the vaccine as teenagers, and that was in the ‘90s.


[01:33:23] Ashley James: When did they start giving it to newborns, though?


 [01:33:25]Dr. Paul Thomas: So the newborn shift in Oregon, and it felt like it was a national push here in the US, was around 2000, 2003, right around then. Because the interesting thing was I specifically remember it because it was right when they got the mercury out of the vaccines. And I thought to myself, is this a coincidence or is this a planned event? Because I was so excited about getting the mercury out of the vaccine.

I remember going to my youngest son’s kindergarten teacher or first grade teacher, and I said, you see a lot of autism now and a lot of ADD and ADHD. She said, oh, yes. I said, well, don’t worry, in five years, it’s going to be gone. I mean, I was so convinced that that was the leading cause of that brain issue. And it never went away. In fact, it got slightly worse, but we replaced one bad thing—the mercury—with something that’s probably equally bad, maybe worse—huge doses of aluminum.

By shifting that Hep B vaccine to newborn, two months, six months, that’s three big doses of a really bad aluminum product. The data is out there that that birth dose of aluminum is just horrendous or just the Hepatitis B series itself, it’s not a good thing.


[01:34:46] Ashley James: My point that I was getting at is as a child, me growing up in the ‘80s—I was born in 1980 and I never attended school with a child that was autistic, I never saw it. I think I knew one person with asthma. Never did I know a child in any of the schools I attended that had childhood cancer or any autoimmune conditions. Actually, I remember one kid that was allergic to grass, and so she’d get a weird rash if she sat on the grass. But everyone is growing up, super healthy, no problems.

So sometime in the late ‘90s, early 2000s, 100% of all newborns are on a different schedule than when I was growing up. I had very few vaccines growing up comparative to today. I went to a pediatrician who was actually quite famous in Toronto for being a fantastic doctor and he was well known to this day. I followed the schedule that Canada had laid out in the ‘80s and the ‘90s.

Nowadays, the children who are 10 years old, 15 years old, that kind of thing, the levels of childhood cancer, the levels of autoimmune condition comparative to 30 years ago, let’s say like, look at the before and after. What you brought up in our last interview you said, when we take a child and we overexcite the immune system with multiple doses of vaccine—because a vaccine, its intention is fantastic. Its intention is to train the immune system to mount a healthy response, so if you ever come in contact with it, you can have a healthy response and have better outcomes. That’s the intention. That’s a great intention, I want that for everyone. What happens in actuality is it overexcites and makes the immune system become hyperactive.


[01:37:06] Dr. Paul Thomas: Yeah, immune activation it’s called. Think of it almost like carpet bombing. The attempt was, we’re just going to get antibodies against X, Y, or Z. But when it goes wrong, the immune system is now attacking yourself, that’s autoimmunity. So, if you’re attacking the islet cells of the pancreas, you’ve got type one diabetes. If you’re attacking the myelin sheath of your brain, you’ve got MS. If you’re attacking your cartilage in your joints, you’ve got arthritis, and so on and so on.


[01:37:41] Ashley James: So, these children end up with a hyperactive immune system that then becomes autoimmune which is what you just described. And then these children with autoimmune conditions, who are still children, are then put on immune suppressants and years later developed cancer because the immune system is not functioning correctly and can’t clear out the unhealthy cancerous cells. We’re creating wonderful customers for the pharmaceutical and medical industry. We’re creating wonderful customers. Customers for life until they die.


[01:38:13] Dr. Paul Thomas: Yeah, you just outlined what I like to point out is vaccines are probably the number three moneymaker for pharma. They trigger autoimmunity. When you’re autoimmune, you have to give immunosuppressants as you stated. That’s the number one moneymaker for pharma. And when you suppress the immune system, you get cancers, the number two moneymaker for pharma. So numbers one, two, and three are all intertwined, turning you into an ATM cash machine for pharmaceutical companies. Trust me, folks, their interests are not in keeping you healthy, their interests are financial.


[01:38:48] Ashley James: It is such a dilemma to go upstream. Even me publishing this episode, I’m putting my career at risk. I’m putting my podcast at risk. And you have put your career at risk. I’m so grateful to your bravery and courage for continuing to speak out for the health, wellbeing, and safety of all children and adults.


[01:39:14] Dr. Paul Thomas: Well, thank you as well. You’re absolutely right. You are taking a risk, and you obviously are doing that because you care. That’s the only reason I do this. I mean, that financial incentive paper that I wrote just shows, for example, that there’s no financial reason for me to do what I’m doing. I mean, I walk in and I talk to the patient. I can’t right now, because one of the conditions of getting my license back was I can’t talk about vaccines to patients. I figure I’m covered by free speech on a show.


[01:39:47] Ashley James: Hopefully.


[01:39:49] Dr. Paul Thomas: Yeah, hopefully. And folks, everything we’re discussing here is just informational. Run this by your trusted health care providers, hopefully somebody who’s really aware of what’s going on because too many doctors are not. It’s a real risk because of censorship that’s going on at a very pervasive high level. If you speak out with facts, real data, and science, or even if it was your opinion. I mean, we could say you and I have opinions. We should be allowed in this free country. If it truly is a free country, we should be allowed to share opinions, disagree, and still be civil to one another. And I am trying to do that better these days. I think because you and I might be a lot on the same page, it sounds like we don’t like vaccines, but I’m with you.

At the beginning of the show when you stated, everybody’s got to make their own decisions and we need to love one another and support one another’s opinions because this way of keeping people divided is really not a good strategy for us to have long term good health. It just gives more power to the big businesses that are trying to take more control. They can keep us fighting over you name the issue, whether it’s political, whether you’re this party or that party, or whether it’s over a hot topic of the day.

If we can keep people divided whether it’s on race or some other issue, parties, it doesn’t matter, religion, anything that keeps people divided keeps them distracted from what’s really going on, which is that you are slowly giving up your freedoms, you’re slowly giving up your rights. And right now, they are attacking your body. We’re turning humans into GMO humans. It’s never been done before, it never should have been done, and it’s being done on a massive worldwide stage with an experimental vaccine. This vaccine is not FDA-approved, by the way, folks, it is still experimental. And that’s the one thing I think maybe could put this to an end is these companies that are requiring vaccines.

So if I have to go get a vaccine because this company made me do it and I’m injured, I can sue that company. They aren’t protected, the vaccine manufacturers are protected because of the way the laws have been written, so they’re just going like crazy. Everybody should get it, cha-ching, cha-ching. But companies that insist that you get it in these schools, these universities that are insisting, they are liable. There’s going to be some lawsuits, and when that finally starts hitting in a big way, I think businesses will have to think twice about whether or not they want to become liable for the damage these vaccines are causing because these damages are just going to start accumulating to the point where it’s not going to be possible to keep them hidden.


[01:42:37] Ashley James: You just mentioned, I hope we’re protected on our amendment rights to be able to have freedom of speech. The next episode I’m publishing actually after this one is an interview I did recently with a doctor who has practiced for many years, and he’s an MD who studied holistic medicine. He chose to treat all of his COVID patients with the same formula, the same protocol that he has treated all upper respiratory illnesses for the last 20,30 years using natural medicine. He had such a huge success rate.

He published it on his blog. He’s been running a blog since the ‘90s. And it was something like certain vitamins, certain things, you inhale—all-natural substances. And he also would do an injection in the buttocks of ozone. Most of the stuff you could do at home and take it home, that kind of thing.

At that time, he had treated just about 100 patients and all of them survived. This was early on last year. The FCC wrote him a letter—FCC, not FDA—saying, you’re in violation, you have to take this down. You have to take your blog down. He said, what are you talking about? They said, you cannot make claims that you’re treating COVID-19, you can’t do that. Because there are no published studies. He said, well, I’m practicing medicine. I’m a doctor. Aren’t I allowed to practice medicine the way I see fit? They said, no, you are not allowed to do that.

If he said, I treat arthritis with these vitamins and minerals. I cure arthritis with this, this, this. If he said that, they didn’t have a problem, which he did on his blog for many years. They had a problem with the fact that he was treating and publishing that he was treating COVID-19. So he said, okay, I’ll do what you say. I’m going to go publish a study.

Then he got all of his information together. He’s now out of 400 patients at this point with COVID, and all of them lived and very few hospitalized. I don’t remember the exact numbers. It was like five or something, It was a very small amount. But he had great, great, great success. They recovered really well. And so then he found a journal, and he published it. He came back to the FCC and said, here, a published study proving that I can claim that this is a treatment. They said no, it needs to be a placebo double-blind study. So they keep changing the target. But he said that’s unethical. When I know what works for my patients to then do a placebo and let them die or let them be harmed, that is unethical.

I hope we still have our first amendment rights, he’s married to a lawyer. He tried to fight it. He then took his blog down and then he wrote a book. He found out that a blog on the internet is not protected, for some reason. When he’s laying out the treatment plan for COVID-19. And then he said, but apparently, a book is still considered a protected free speech and so he wrote a book and published it with all of his findings basically. That definitely scares me.


[01:46:30] Dr. Paul Thomas: So I wrote a book early on in this COVID outbreak because I had a dear friend almost die. He was hospitalized before I even knew he was sick. They wanted to intubate him so badly and he just said no way. He’d already been hearing the reports that once you’re intubated, it was an 80% chance of dying. He went with almost very low oxygen for three nights, and couldn’t sleep. You know if he fell asleep he’d be dead. I was able to help him a little bit by just texting him once he could get access to his phone.

But yeah, my book was accepted on Amazon and then last minute was taken down because I did not adhere to the World Health Organization criteria. I didn’t meet World Health Organization standards on the management of COVID.


[01:47:15] Ashley James: What are the World Health Organization standards on the management of COVID? Is it to wear a mask and wait until the vaccine comes out?


[01:47:22] Dr. Paul Thomas: Yeah, you’ve got it. At that point, it was do nothing and wait until you’re bad enough to be intubated. I mean, it was insanity. It was pretty clear that having really robust vitamin D levels is probably the most important thing you can do. Everybody should be doing that now and forevermore, just because that’s the one vitamin we’re almost universally deficient in because you have to be in sunlight to make enough active vitamin D, and we wear clothes when we’re outside. If we’re in the Northern Hemisphere, far away from the equator, the sun doesn’t do its job very well, anyway.


[01:47:56] Ashley James: And you also have to have a healthy liver, healthy kidneys, and enough healthy fats.


[01:47:59] Dr. Paul Thomas: Yup. Anyway, censorship is alive and well, and it’s getting worse and worse. It’s a real problem for our democracy.


[01:48:07] Ashley James: There’s a concerted effort to make the population do what they say, and that is not in our best interests when we look at the data, and that scares me. There are so many listeners who are like, I trust these people, I trust these organizations. These organizations have good people in them. Yes, every organization has good people in them. We don’t know what’s going on at the top, right? Why is it that these different organizations, why is Amazon is so eager to comply with the World Health Organization instead of the Constitution?

Why are these independent companies so eager to follow this one direction when this one direction is showing it’s doing harm? And why is showing alternatives that are proven safe and effective becoming illegal?


[01:49:09] Dr. Paul Thomas: Yup. There’s a huge financial incentive. It’s all about control and money. Power, control, and money have always been underlying in any major shift. This is modern-day book burning. I mean, we really have a problem on our hands. Listeners, if you’re still with us—this show has been going on a while—take your power back. You the individual have the power to live free, but only if you insist on it because they’re coming for you.


[01:49:44] Ashley James: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Paul Thomas. I value your work. My listeners are used to long interviews because they love really, really learning the nitty-gritty from our guests, and you’ve definitely laid out some very interesting points. We’re going to make sure that all the links to everything that Dr. Paul Thomas said are in the show notes of today’s podcast at

Is there anything that you’d like to say to wrap up today’s interview or anything that you really want to make sure came across in today’s interview?


[01:50:12] Dr. Paul Thomas: Listeners, please, just be kind to yourself. Do whatever you can to get away from fear because fear is bad for your immune system. So number one thing for that is just turn off the TV. Get outdoors as much as you can. If you get out into nature, you’re walking in a forest, you’re swimming in the ocean, or in the garden, in any way you can get out in nature, you will notice that the rest of the animal kingdom is absolutely fine. Isn’t that interesting? None of them are lining up for a vaccine. They are absolutely fine even in the toxic world that we have. So, remember that.

You are uniquely gifted by your birth with a very good immune system and a way to heal yourself, but you do need to get the right nutrients, you need to avoid toxins. Just be careful about what you might put into your body, consider it your temple, and take vitamin D if nothing else. And then prepare yourself in the event that you do get sick with this COVID. It’s pretty rare, but if it happens, don’t just sit around waiting to get sicker. Go to the frontline doctors.

Check out my show, The show is called Against the Wind: Doctors & Science Under Fire. I’m trying to bring to you what you need to know to remain healthy despite this crazy world we’re living in. I’m sending you love and wishing you the very best. Thank you Ashley so much for having me on your show.


[01:51:50] Ashley James: Thank you so much.



Get Connected With Dr. Paul Thomas! 

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An Epidemic of Absence by Moises Velasquez-Manoff

Jun 5, 2021

To buy the Nadovim NAD supplement that Ashley recommends, use coupon code LTH at or use this link to apply the coupon code directly:


Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucliotide Supplement, NADOVIM (NAD+) The Missing Link to Energy, Brain Function and Longevity



  • What is NAD+
  • Benefits of using NAD+
  • Importance of having passion and purpose for the overall well-being 
  • Anything that’s a toxin required NAD+


NAD+ is important for the body’s overall function, but not a lot of people have heard of it. In this episode, Caspar Szulc explains what NAD+ is and what are the benefits of taking NAD+. He also shares how Nadovim is different from other NAD+ supplements on the market.



Hello, true health seeker and welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health podcast. This episode is about a supplement that I had never heard of. It’s a molecule that our body absolutely needs in order for the mitochondria to convert food into energy. I’m surprised I had never heard of it until a few weeks ago. My friend and I were sitting around talking while our kids were in gymnastics. She said, you know my favorite supplement, have you ever heard of it? And I had not. 

She said this is the difference between me just dragging through the day and me skipping through the day, and she’s a very busy mom with a demanding career. I’ve always known her to be full of energy and always be standing and moving around completing stuff. When she has days off she wants to go for hikes. I mean, she’s that kind of person. I’m like, you’re on a day off, why don’t we just chill here? She’s like, no, let’s go. Let’s go do stuff. 

She’s one of those people that has such energy, and I never thought she had energy problems. But she told me that she really relies on this and a few other supplements just to make her body function more optimally, which then, in turn, gives her sustainable energy. That’s when I got really excited about learning more about this, and it just so happens that I was interviewing this guest the next week.

Now, when I did the interview, I had never tried the supplement before. Since the interview, I have tried it. I’ve been taking it for the last few days and I really did notice a difference, which is cool because there are so many supplements out there that I haven’t noticed a huge difference. This one I was having a particularly hard day, it was a few days ago and I was having kind of a rough day. If you’ve been a listener and you’ve listened to past episodes, you may know that I was pregnant, I lost my daughter at birth, and then a few days later I got COVID and my body was just really run down because of grief, being in shock, and healing from postpartum.

The last month, my body’s been through a lot, and on top of that, we’re moving. We’re actually downsizing 2700 square feet into a Fifth Wheel RV. Our life has been kind of crazy the last month and a half. So a few days ago I just had really low energy. Emotionally just very drained, kind of feeling depressed but pushing through it. Definitely feeling grief, and I was just continuing to mentally stick to focusing on this positive outcome we’re going to have, focusing on what I’m grateful for, but still, my body was not where my mind wanted to be. It was definitely very low energy. 

Caffeine can wake you up, but it doesn’t really give you energy. You can still be awake and exhausted, so that’s not really the answer. I take all my vitamins and I eat as healthy as I can. Then I took this supplement and about an hour later I just noticed I’m not exhausted anymore. It’s not jitters, you’re not feeling hyper. I wasn’t feeling hyper. I haven’t felt hyper on it. I just noticed that all that fatigue was gone. We’ve gotten so much more done since then. We’ve been able to complete so much more of our moving, decluttering, selling, giving away, donating, or getting rid of all of our stuff. That’s really neat.

I’ve also noticed that sort of deep depression has really eased up, the sensations of deep sadness have really eased up. And then in this interview, he talks about that. He talks about how this supplement really supports the brain as well as the body in producing energy, but people have noticed better sleep. I’ve noticed I’ve had, since taking it, much deeper dreams, much more vivid, colorful, detailed dreams, which is really interesting, so I must be getting deeper sleep. 

Not that I ever really have had brain fog lately, it’s just coming down from all the events that I’ve had recently, I’ve noticed that this supplement has made things a bit easier. That’s a lot. That’s a lot of really positive payoffs for me. Even late into the evening, I just have the ability to keep going whereas I might have just called it a day at 4:00 or 5:00 PM and said, okay, I’m done with these tasks until tomorrow. Like last night, it was much later in the evening and we’re like, oh, I could keep going. This is really interesting.

It’s what the body uses to convert our food into energy and we’re often depleted in it. We talk about in this interview why we’re depleted in it, where it comes from, and how we can take this supplement. The guy I interviewed, he formulated one that’s very high quality, so I recommend you check out his. The links are going to be the show notes of today’s podcast at He gives us a coupon code. All the listeners, we get a discount which is great. The coupon code being LTH. 

Enjoy today’s interview. Share it with your friends who might be going through some mentally or emotionally stressful times. I think it’s good for anyone who wants good sustainable energy, but it’s also good for people who have brain fog or are just really stressed out because I have noticed it has made it easier for me the last few days that I’ve been on it. That’s really exciting.

Enjoy today’s show, share it with your friends. Let me know if you do try it and what your results are. I’m always curious to hear how different natural supplements or natural programs help people. You can join the Facebook group. Just search Learn True Health on Facebook or go to, that’ll redirect you to the group. Share what your experiences are with Nadovim and let me know. I’m really curious, let everyone know. I will keep sharing my experiences.

I also shared it with my husband and he noticed that there was just—it’s not like this boom like if you take a shot of espresso, you feel something jittery almost right away. It’s not that, it’s just like an hour later you go, wow, I can feel it. I’ve got more energy. You got more drive, you got more motivation. Your body’s just functioning better, so that’s really cool. Awesome. Well, enjoy today’s show and let me know what you think. I’m really curious to hear the results that the other listeners get, so stay in touch.


[00:07:11] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is episode 460. I am so excited for today’s guest. Caspar Szulc is on the show, President and co-founder of Innovative Medicine. Now, what’s really serendipitous is about two weeks ago I was hanging out with one of my friends while our kids did their gymnastics class together. We were talking about different supplements. She goes, have you ever heard of NAD+? I look at her, I’m like, that sounds familiar but tell me more. She goes, well, it is my favorite supplement. And I said, okay, why?

Now, this is one of my friends who’s super healthy, crazy. Probably the healthiest friend I know. She’s so fit, she always has energy. She has two young kids. She has a career so she’s just like always, always on. She’s always standing or hiking, and I’ve never seen her sit. She just has energy, and I never ever think of her as someone who needs a supplement. But what she tells me about NAD+ is she said she experimented with a lot of supplements and NAD+ had the most noticeable energy boost for her. I’m quoting her, “It’s the difference between dragging through the day and skipping through it,” and I always see her skip through her days. Now I know her magic formula is not cocaine or coffee, it’s NAD+.

Then I saw that I was interviewing you and I thought, whoa, this is so cool because you, your father, and your company created this supplement. I’m really excited to learn about what it does and how it supports our body’s ability to properly produce enough energy so we can skip through our days. Welcome to the show.


[00:09:07] Caspar Szulc: Thanks for having me, and that was a great intro. I’m hoping to skip through this and give people a lot of good information.


[00:09:14] Ashley James: Now, do you take your own supplement?


[00:09:16] Caspar Szulc: Of course. I mean, honestly, I think a lot of what started like why go into the supplement world because we were really in the medical world—we have a medical clinic—was what would be something I would like to take. That’s why I started a company. It’s like what would I want to see? That was the basis of it. So I take Nadovim daily.


[00:09:35] Ashley James: So Nadovim, which the links to everything that we talked about today are going to be the show notes of today’s podcast at, and you’re giving us a discount code. You’re giving us a coupon code. The coupon code is LTH as in Learn True Health. Of course, that’s the one we like to use, so all the listeners know that one.

Nadovim is a supplement, it’s an NAD+ supplement. I have so many questions. We’re going to talk about why is it better than the other brands out there, what it does, how it affects the body, and how it supports the body’s ability to make energy in a really healthy way? But before we get into all that, I’d love a little bit of background information. What happened in your life that led you to where you are now? What happened to lead you into helping create being part of the team that has created and distributed this supplement?


[00:10:34] Caspar Szulc: It’s a good question, one that I get asked a lot. It’s like what happened? I was recently asked this for a survey for top entrepreneurs to fill out that my PR team had me do. It was like, what was your aha moment of all this? I don’t have one. I don’t know, I was frustrated. I was born into this, first off, in a sense, meaning my father is a doctor, my mother’s a psychologist. They come from Europe, they have a little bit of a different background, but I’ve always been around medicine, health, and this idea of being healthy is just something that was really ingrained in me from day one on this earth.

It’s not that this is something new or I had anything happen to get me into the field somewhat. I used to travel around the world with my father. When you go to conferences and just be around doctors as a five-year-old in China or something, that was just normal to me. I had that sort of upbringing, that happened in a sense.

Then I went to school. I went to Boston University and got into finance and marketing, which was a little bit different. My father definitely wanted me to be a doctor. I was just like, you work really hard dad. I see patients and blood isn’t my thing. Here I am 20 years later after that conversation in medicine talking to a lot of patients and working really long hours also. 

After I graduated with a finance and marketing degree I went into finance, became a financial analyst, thought this was the corporate road, the ladder to success, and living the American dream. Within a year I was burned out, frustrated, and miserable. It wasn’t what I thought. It wasn’t creative. I was just hitting buttons really and just typing in trades and seeing that they are correct and answering to 10 people above me that didn’t want any input on anything.

A year of that is someone that is creative that really did value health and feeling burned out when you’re 21, 22. That’s not good. That’s a sign that something is going on. There was an opportunity actually that my co-founder who was a family friend growing up who was in medical school at the time and was also frustrated with things and saw what my father was doing in this integrative field because my father left the conventional field and being an anesthesiologist at a hospital to start to help patients regain their health rather than just mass symptoms and manage the disease. 

He said, there’s a great opportunity here to get involved with a company side so that would get more people to know about this because not enough people do know about this idea of advanced integrative medicine, of personalizing, of really approaching things at their root causes, and mind, body, spirit, and all these things that are now pretty popular but this was the early 2000s when no one was really talking about it so much.

That’s what led me into this, into starting a company in innovative medicine, into really pushing the boundaries of what we do in our medical center, and still traveling the world as I did like a little child to find out what is new out there. Experts in different countries and continents, what are they doing that we can apply in medicine to help people because we do have a problem right now? Over 60% are chronically ill and people are depressed. They have less energy than ever. They’re just depleted. It’s become a mission.

The whole thing is I’ve done this my whole life, been around it, and I just want to expose more people to it to empower them. That’s really the backstory to everything I do and what I’ve been doing in this company for about 20 years now.


[00:14:29] Ashley James: Now, what you told me before we hit record is that your team for 10 years was researching and developing Nadovim, this NAD+ supplement, but in the last two years it was very intense R&D research. Can you tell us a bit about that?


[00:14:51] Caspar Szulc: Yeah. So I mean 10 years ago would be from the point of, hey, let’s do a supplement. We know there are great things that we’re utilizing within the clinic that are getting great results with patients, and they’re all different types of things. It wasn’t just NAD+. NAD+ we probably introduced around five or so years ago in an IV format into the center after learning more about it. We were looking at everything early on—glutathione—and we were kind of like, what will it be? What will our supplement be? And that was like 10 years.

And then around two, three years ago, maybe a little bit more, we started to really focus on NAD+ because what we saw when applying it intravenously was that patients who had brain fog, neurological disorders, early-onset dementia—anything related really to the brain—saw a vast improvement when using this compound. We’re seeing it firsthand in really tough cases—parkinsonism, Lyme disease, neurological Lyme disease, again, dementia, anyone with a brain injury, and they were improving drastically in some cases.


[00:16:05] Ashley James: Multiple sclerosis?


[00:16:07] Caspar Szulc: MS. I mean, you could go across the board naming neurological pieces or something with a neurological function. When you talk about brain fog or depression, that’s linked to so many chronic conditions also. That’s a symptom, and that was greatly improving as we added this into the treatment—NAD+ infusions.


[00:16:27] Ashley James: What about autism?


[00:16:29] Caspar Szulc: Again, I look at everything from the source. Autism, while it’s a neurological disorder, you could also say it’s a toxicity disorder, it’s a disorder of emotions, and all sorts of things there too. I don’t like to ever say diagnoses that are multi-pronged outside just neurological, especially in children that this is the key or the answer. Again, NAD+ isn’t the answer to anything, I would say really. It’s a wonderful addition to help with the functioning of something, and we could get into that later.


[00:17:05] Ashley James: Perfect. Yes, absolutely. Now, my limited understanding—I’m really excited for you to help us dive in deep and understand it much more—is that this supplement supports the mitochondria, which is the powerhouse of the cell. I definitely want to get into that. First, can you tell us what is NAD+? What does that stand for and what is it?


[00:17:26] Caspar Szulc: So nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide. NAD+, and there’s a plus added, is basically a coenzyme factor that is in the electron chain transport—the whole transition of it basically. Actually, when I talked to experts about this originally, it was explained to me that it’s as important as oxygen in the body. Every single cell in your body needs NAD+, and it’s basically the way we transfer over from food and everything we take in water into energy within the cells within the mitochondria. It’s incredibly essential.

The one thing I also learned is NAD+ gets depleted rather quickly as we age, and especially with modern-day living, meaning whenever you drink alcohol, one molecule of alcohol, it requires two molecules of NAD+ to get that out of the body. Same with prescription drugs, same with oxidative stress or just general stressors in general.


[00:18:33] Ashley James: This is fascinating, sorry to interrupt. Does the body make NAD+?


[00:18:39] Caspar Szulc: The body basically has stores of NAD+ that it will require to create this energy, but no, it requires an outside source, and you get it from food as well. It’s just things that are usually higher in protein or anything. You could actually do that, it’s just not a large amount you could say. Again, at the rate we deplete today, it is problematic. This is probably the reason so many people don’t know what NAD+ is because if it’s as important as oxygen to life and every single cell needs it, how come we don’t know about this?

I was thinking the same thing, and everyone I spoke to answered because we never really had a problem with it before. We always had these stores, as we age it goes down, but it’s not enough to really cause an issue. If we eat normally, then fine. We have no need to know about this NAD++ because things are working fine. If it’s not broke don’t fix it or you don’t even need to know so much about it. 

But because we live in a day and age where we are go, go, go, where we consume lots of things that actually take up our NAD+ supplies, we’re being depleted at an exponential rate. We basically have NAD+ depletion or something called NED that is happening to us, and it’s happening faster and faster and faster. It’s almost like as we’re aging a little bit quicker as well, it’s really the NAD+ that’s shifting out of us. And with that, we have the myriad of things that can go wrong when your mitochondria don’t have the energy to replicate, to do all the functions a cell has to. It’s really at the cellular level that we’re looking at where dysfunction starts to happen and that could turn into so many different things.


[00:20:32] Ashley James: To simplify it, the mitochondria, which is this part of the cell that makes energy, and actually, fascinatingly enough, mitochondria is like a bacteria. So it’s this really interesting beautiful symbiotic relationship we have with it. It needs NAD+ in order to take our food and turn it into energy, and when we don’t have enough of it, we can eat lots of food but it’s not getting converted into energy because NAD+ is being used up because of the stressors in our life—the alcohol, the toxic stress, drugs over the counter or prescription. 

70% of adult Americans are on at least one prescription medication, so 70% of Americans are being depleted, their NAD+ is being depleted, and almost everyone drinks alcohol. I feel like an oddity because I very, very, very, very rarely drink. We don’t have alcohol in our house. I could enjoy a glass of wine maybe twice a year, but that’s just it. It’s a very rare treat, and it’s not even a treat. It’s just a very rare thing in my life, and everyone’s ordering drinks. It’s very interesting. 

So I imagine the greater population is consuming alcohol on a daily or weekly basis, so they’re depleting their NAD+ significantly. In addition to the NAD+ being depleted from the drugs they’re taking, in addition to the NAD+ being depleted from the toxic environment that their liver is trying to get rid of all the toxins. There are 50,000 man-made chemicals that are new to our body that has been invented in less than the last hundred years. It’s over 50,000. I’ve heard other doctors quote 80,000 chemicals that are in our air, water, and soil, so they’re in our food, they’re in our environment, and our liver does not know what to do with it, but it takes up a lot of resources for the body to have to get rid of this.

No wonder we’re feeling so sluggish. So thinking back to my friend who says NAD+ is the difference between just being draggy all day or just skipping through her day, that makes so much sense. So Nadovim is your NAD+ supplement. Is there anything else in Nadovim? Is Nadovim in any way different from all the other NAD+ supplements out there?


[00:23:05] Caspar Szulc: Yeah, it’s actually drastically different in a number of ways. So Nadovim is one of the first to market that actually uses fully formed NAD+, so it’s not a precursor. Most of the others go with the precursor, which is nicotinamide and nicotinamide riboside (NR). So anytime you take an NR supplement, you require other elements to it as well to then recombine and turn into NAD+. Absolutely, I’m not saying that won’t help, but there are processes that have to happen in the body. Some energy is actually expensed to require you to take that precursor, turn it into NAD+, bring it to the cells, and then fuel those cells.

What we realized was that listen, you don’t use NR in infusions and no doctor does that. They use real full-formed NAD+. It is a larger and delicate molecule, but we also realized when we looked at the research is taken alone, it is true that it gets somewhat hydrolyzed within the small intestine and you lose some of that bioavailability. But when you combine it with other elements, especially ones like coenzyme q10, which have been studied when they take it orally with NAD+, it’s great for chronic fatigue syndrome patients. They showed a study out of Spain that showed great improvement in HRV and general energy levels when done together in specific ratios.

We did that and really we approached this as what is the best synergistic model of different elements we could use in ingredients to get the best results? I always say it’s like creating a wonderful meal. If you’re going to a Michelin star restaurant, they’re never going to just put a really nice piece of steak on your plate and say eat it. They’re always going to garnish it with something. They’re always going to put some nice vegetables that complement it, whatever it is—mashed potato, anything with it that comes together and you get a really good meal.

That’s what you should be looking for also in a supplement—something that enhances each ingredient and works together synergistically. So we also included glycine, great for the brain, great for memory. We included thiamine. We included bacopa, which is of course a known herbal and enhancer of cognitive function. Cat’s claw, inflammation was an issue we looked at as well.

So there are eight ingredients in it together and we looked at the precise dosage of everything in there. So when you have 33 milligrams of coenzyme q10, it doesn’t sound like a lot, but it’s really there to boost the actual NAD+, which you get 200 milligrams of. That increases the bioavailability, which helps with the actual delivery of it. Why we say where most people look at NAD+ or NR supplements is just cellular health and overall well-being, we looked at the brain because we added those elements such as bacopa and everything and realized 20% of all your energy and NAD+ is consumed by the brain. That is where you should be looking if you have things like brain fog, if you have things like memory loss, and even very small. 

While we used it in the first year or two strictly within the clinical aspect, gave this to doctors with our network and used it on the tough cases of neurological diseases. Once we opened it to the public and started getting the feedback, you get things like I used to forget certain words, where I put my keys, that doesn’t happen anymore. I used to need that second cup of coffee in the afternoon, that doesn’t happen anymore. I used to forget different things throughout the day, that doesn’t happen anymore.

It was wonderful to see that what we looked into the research, what we planned out, what we did lots of R&D about was actually happening, both in the population that was sick and really required to boost, but also the population that thought they were healthy and thought this was just declined in aging but it really wasn’t. It was NAD+ depletion. Lots of people are going through just fatigue and brain fog, that’s a huge population. 

That’s why we created this product because we said, what’s the lowest hanging fruit that could impact the most people? What we saw on our patient basis was brain fog, neurological decline, and then that also related to the general population because I think everyone can say we have a little bit of this depletion and this need for focus more than ever.

Where most people thought they were aging and going through this decline in their just general being, we realized that they were probably being depleted of NAD+, so this addition of this formula that gave them not just NAD+ but gave them the coenzyme q10, gave them bacopa, gave them thiamine, gave them the glycine. These were all together really helpful in restoring the proper brain function, getting rid of that brain fog, and also increasing energy throughout.


[00:28:15] Ashley James: That’s fascinating. You guys, for two years, did almost like a clinical trial? Drug companies do clinical trials. In that, you worked with doctors and their patients, had the doctors observe what was happening with their patients and then reported back to you. Then, of course, you and your own clinic, you’d been using NAD+ intravenously like you had shared, and then you’re using Nadovim in your clinic and seeing the results you were getting before you opened it up for the public to buy.


[00:28:49] Caspar Szulc: Right. And we were fortunate enough that we started as a company that really worked with practitioners first. Where we started this company was really education with other practitioners to show them what we were doing within our clinic. So we built up a network around the world of doctors that we went and spoke to. We were in India, we were in Brazil, we were in all these places showing them different techniques in integrative medicine. So when it came time to introduce a product, we said, well, why don’t we prove it on the medical side of things? It’s one thing to prove it in a lab, it’s another thing to prove it with the toughest cases and actually get the medical and clinical experience of what is going on and to have that come from the doctors themselves.

When the doctor said, I did nothing, I changed nothing in the protocol. I gave this supplement to someone with parkinsonism and their tremors greatly reduced. That was a testament to us. And while that’s not a double-blind placebo, we understand that. We really do value that clinical experience because as we know, tons of things have gone through double-blind placebos and shown great, great success in them only to then be used by the general population they don’t see that same level of success.

We value doctors’ opinions. We really value those connections we had with the medical community itself that was already in this integrated world and trying to look at what else can I give to my patients that can improve their outcomes. When we were able to provide them with Nadovim and some of these people already doing NAD+ infusions, but perhaps it was supplemental to take that home because NAD+ infusions are costly, number one. They’re lengthy, they’re several hours. They do sometimes have some—they’re not side effects, but they’re unwanted. If you push NAD+ too quickly intravenously, you’ll get this tightness in the chest and a feeling of anxiety, and a lot of people don’t like that.

When you could provide them with a daily dose of NAD+ orally and they’re seeing similar results to what they were doing in the IV on let’s say a bi-weekly basis, that’s a wonderful extra option for any doctor to utilize. And then to be able to provide that safely to the public as well, we were really happy with the outcome from what we saw, probably more so than what we thought would happen.


[00:31:06] Ashley James: Oh absolutely. Now, the IV is getting right in the body. How did you figure out how to make NAD+ orally be readily absorbed by the body? Is it the cofactors that are also in the Nadovim supplement? How did you guys figure it out? In many supplements, so much is lost through poor absorption. If someone has a messed up gut, they’re not absorbing all their nutrients. How do you bypass that?


[00:31:40] Caspar Szulc: First off, knowledge of bioavailability is really important and understanding. We’ve worked with so many different compounds orally over the years at the clinic understanding that number one, quality is always the most important I think. There are so many different sources of NAD+, and that’s what sometimes upsets me is just this idea that NAD+ is NAD+. That’s the same idea as like, all right, a car is a car. Show me a Ferrari and then show me like a beat up old car, they’re not the same thing. You will gladly pay a premium for one and some you don’t even want to get into because you might not make it to point B in that.

The same thing goes for supplements that goes for medicine, and I always say, in no other realm is it more important to put quality first than in medicine and health where it literally dictates your results. We had to go around from different suppliers and different nutritional manufacturers and see and test their NAD+, look for those purity sources, look for ones that are unadulterated, and really look for ones that had the highest quality to them. Then when you add in the cofactors on top of that, I think that alone is already a successful way to increase bioavailability.

Now the one thing I’ll say about NAD+, I think it’s still often misunderstood as to how it really works, and I think we’re still learning about it because a lot of the competitors or people in our world state that yes, once you ingest it, it’s hydrolyzed and it won’t make its way into the bloodstream. That’s based on a 1980 study of rats that you could look at, and we did. There were definitely some flaws to that and some conceptions there that didn’t really make all that much sense. Once we did look at other studies that were more recent coming out of Japan and other places, you could see that there is new knowledge to understanding how it can be broken up and basically recombined.

My co-founder who’s a doctor looked into this and started looking at those studies and published an article on the bioavailability of not just precursors but NAD+ itself. There’s a couple of conclusions that it came to. 

Number one is that it gets broken apart but then it gets recombined. If you had to take a car through a smaller space than it could fit, what would you do? You take off the wheels maybe, you’ll separate a little bit, but once it’s back in there, you can recombine it pretty easily. As opposed to even the precursors do need to be broken as well to go through and be available, and then they need to recombine with something else that’s in the bloodstream before they become NAD+. So you’re going to require those extra elements whereas you already had the whole car going in.

Then there are new understandings of how certain transporters in the gut can actually take the whole molecule and bring it through. That’s something scientists are just tapping into I think just last year they found that larger molecules host that NAD+ and those that are actually associated with some of the precursors that even larger the NR are crossing fully formed through the gut barrier in and become bioavailable and useful that way.

I mean, science is ever-changing. That whole idea of the science is settled always makes me chuckle a little bit when people say that because science by nature changes almost every single day when we make new discoveries, and we’ll never stop making new discoveries about these things. It’s kind of interesting to see it anecdotally because that’s where we started. We started, okay, you give someone NAD+, they get better. All right, what about oral? They got better too, that’s anecdotal.

And then you start to see the data that’s coming out that you research and it’s matching up. We didn’t even know when we first started putting coenzyme q10 with NAD+ that there were any research papers or anything. We just went off the knowledge of each individually. And then it got brought to our attention, hey there is this study out of Spain where they did it and they put the two together and supplemented over eight weeks and saw a vast improvement in HRV. It was like, oh, wow. That’s basically validating what we were seeing.

That is the breakdown of where we went in this idea of bioavailability—always looking at quality first, looking at the purity of it, looking at what the cofactors can be that can increase not just absorption rate but effectiveness once it gets in, and then, of course, looking at what the data is showing. Are we seeing a placebo in all these patients, or is there something to it? And I think the science is catching up that there is something to it, and I know there are a lot of great, great researchers out there that are just looking at NAD+ and finding new things all the time.

I think we’re still in a relatively early stage of understanding the usefulness and also how it works, the mechanisms of NAD+ within the body that go beyond this understanding of it just supplies the mitochondria with energy, it gets in through this, and you need precursors or you need this. It’s ever-evolving, which is kind of cool. At the same time, I understand it could be a little bit confusing for some. But at the end of the day, we care about results. We care about actually helping people. If that comes first before the data and research can really validate over and over, we’re okay with that. We hope it’ll catch up soon enough.


[00:37:14] Ashley James: So, Nadovim is giving the body the nutrients that are natural to the body, the body needs, but the body is depleted in. That’s vastly different from taking a drug or even self-medicating with coffee, with sugar. I remember a time in my life where I would go to coffee and sugar just to wake up in the morning.

I had a really, really bad chronic adrenal fatigue in my 20s, it was ridiculous. I went to see a functional medicine doctor who actually performed in the Olympics twice. She and I are still friends today, she’s amazing. She’s in her late 70s and she still runs marathons. She’s just super awesome. I want to be her when I grow up. This was 12 years ago and she looked at my cortisol levels and said, I have never seen cortisol levels this low. You absolutely have chronic adrenal fatigue based on all my symptoms and my blood work. And then back then, I went to several MDs and they just brushed me off. They hadn’t learned about chronic adrenal fatigue. They’re like, well, you don’t have Addison’s disease. Just go home, drink coffee, or whatever.

But I went to her and she’s like, okay, we’re going to get you better with supplements, a better diet, and lifestyle changes. It validated me because doctors said there’s nothing wrong with me or whatever until I saw her and she knew to run the labs to see that I had chronic adrenal fatigue. She said, I’d never seen someone so low. The closest I’ve ever seen was after I finished the Olympics, after her training. After very intense, she goes, my cortisol levels were about the same, but I bounced back and you’ve been this way for years.

I know she would absolutely have put me on Nadovim if she had had access to it back then, but how she helped me to start to get on the path to healing was finding out all the different vitamins, minerals, and things that my body was missing and changing my diet.

It took me years of just constantly researching and looking through natural medicine and working with several Naturopathic doctors until it all clicked and I found the keys to solving my health problems.

I’m really excited about Nadovim because it’s what the body is missing, and when I started taking what my body was missing, even a really high-quality methylated multi B vitamin supplement was life turned on. All of a sudden, the lights turned on in my body because my body was depleted. And then I started taking different minerals, 60 minerals highly absorbed by the body, all of a sudden it was like the lights turned on even more and I started to feel my body come online.

These are things that should be in our food but aren’t in our food because they’re food supply. They’re not our food in the amounts that our body needs, and our body is under way more stress so it burns through our nutrients much quicker. Doctors wanted to put me on drugs. They had different drugs for me, and of course, my body doesn’t have a deficiency for whatever drug they wanted to give me. My body was missing these key nutrients that are in Nadovim. So it’s very intriguing.

I’ve had clients who say, because I’ll help them get on like a really great multi B vitamin that’s highly absorbed by the body and actually all 16 vitamins and some minerals. They’ll say, well, how long do I have to take this? I take it every day but when can I get off of it? It’s just such an interesting question. It’s like, well how long do you want to feel healthy because this is what your body uses every day. When you’re supplementing, when you’re filling in the gaps of your nutrient needs, you want to take that every day for the rest of your life.

Your body needs vitamin C every day right, so if you’re not getting enough from your diet you need to supplement in order to give your body all the raw building blocks it needs to have a proper cellular function. So your body’s using everything in Nadovim to properly function. We have to think this isn’t a drug. You get on a drug and you want to know when you’re going to get off the drug, right? But with this, this isn’t a drug. This is supplementing what you are lacking, what your body needs in order to optimally function.

Now, that leads me to my question because biohackers and athletes have really latched on to Nadovim and NAD+ to boost their results. I’d love for you to talk about it because we talked about people who are feeling sick or even just people who think they’re healthy but notice they have a decline in their energy or their mental clarity. But what about those people who are just super healthy like athletes, why are they so excited about Nadovim?


[00:42:27] Caspar Szulc: Well, one thing I want to get to that you say was really interesting that I’ve heard echoed by so many doctors is this idea that you will never be depleted of a chemical. You will never be depleted of a drug or anything. You will be depleted of so many other things, and that’s a cause of the way we live. Even our food supply is depleted, even our soil somewhat being depleted. I had Dr. James DiNicolantonio recently wrote the mineral fix. He said basically the soil we have right now is 30%–50% less magnesium than it was 30 years ago. So we have 30%–50% of Americans are basically depleted of magnesium.

The numbers add up right there, and so much of what is going on is not a depletion of a chemical. It is a depletion of the nutrients, which we require, which are building blocks to our body’s functioning. That’s really important for people to realize that when you go on a drug, that’s just keeping you in a state where you’re managing something, you’re managing the depletion in a sense that is more natural, and then you start to become dependent on a drug. We never like that approach. I do think it’s really important to state that something like Nadovim and everything we do at our company and how we try and teach other doctors to work is not to look at someone as, oh, you’re depleted of a drug, let me give it to you. But let’s find out what’s really going on. What’s at the source of this? What is that underlying dysfunction or root cause and go after that?

That’s a really important distinction of how you approach your health as well because anyone could say, oh, you want more energy, just take in more caffeine. Drink 5-hour Energy all day, some people do it. But trust me, that’s not healthy. That is the opposite of healthy. Our biorhythms and the chronobiological system are totally screwed up when you do that. That’s what causes adrenal fatigue, causes hormones to go out of balance and everything else, and a cascade of other things you don’t want happening.

Now, to get into that idea, I’ve always said that if you look at biohackers and performance optimizers, they are doing the same thing that medicine should be doing, which is absolutely just how do we get you to your best self? How do we optimize your body, mind, and spirit? When we approach medicine, it’s not that we’re just trying to get you to this absence of symptoms, which most of medicine would say, yes, we did it. We cured you because you don’t have symptoms right now. Meanwhile, underlying dysfunction is still there. You probably require ongoing maintenance and you may not feel that good here and there.

Really, if you push the goal and the end zone, let’s say, to having complete optimization of your health, of self-healing, of self-management, of getting you to a state where you don’t require caffeine or other things to wake up or pills to go to sleep, that’s what the aim of any medical treatment should be. And that’s also the aim of where biohackers go. They know this because they’re very, very passionate about it.

So when they’re looking at compounds to help their mitochondrial function, to help how they’re feeling throughout the day, to give them that 1%-2% edge. I was on Dave Asprey’s podcast and he told me about his experience. He said, it’s really nuanced and that’s when I know something works because I’m already healthy. I’m already taking so many things to optimize me and I’m not in a sick state anymore. But you’re looking for these nuanced improvements and being able to say, okay, I could focus for 20, 30 minutes longer without having to take a break. I can go a little bit more in my workout.

We had a professional soccer player who said I’m 21, 22. He said, I’m already full of energy on the field. What was great for me was when I was doing the back area looking at tape and doing all the training that way and the homework you got to do, I was zoned in so much longer after a long day of doing practice. After the physical exertion, I would usually be a little bit mentally exhausted. But with Nadovim, I had that extra edge to now have that mental strength to keep going, to stay really focused when others were zoning out on these things, and I could pick up on the reeds and different offensives I had to defend against.

That’s where when you’re talking about these top performers, they’re looking for just any little edge to get ahead, and Nadovim was able to provide that. So I think that’s why they latched on. You had these big guys taking them, talking about it, and saying yeah, I noticed it. I do everything I can. I take 100+ pills sometimes to see what works and what doesn’t, and Nadovim was one of those that actually did bring them to those nuanced senses of improvement and they actually saw it. For them, that means the world. We’re really pleased with that.

We started with patients, we started with people that are pretty sick and said, hey, can we help you guys? We didn’t even focus, but what became of it was, yes, the biohackers and athletes know what NAD+ is. They’re also depleting it with lots of energy and just what they’re bringing into their body and also expelling. They understood that if you could optimize and even something that we call pre-plenish your NAD+ levels. 

It’s not about replenishing. Many of them would probably show that they’re really taking care of themselves and have pretty good levels of NAD+, but what about really stressful times? Can they pre-plenish so that when the stress hits, when they do have to work 12, 14 hour days, or really go deep into the competition, will they have the levels to keep going? That was something really interesting and something we didn’t see and just kind of happened. It happened very naturally that these top biohackers just got into it as something that started in the medical community. That’s something I’m really looking at right now, how do we bridge that gap between medicine and biohacking? Because I think it’s one in the same really. It’s about how do we get you to your most optimized self and basically the spot where you’re healthiest and happiest.


 [00:48:53] Ashley James: I love that you brought it pre-plenish because it reminds me of when athletes carb load. They don’t need all the extra glucose stores for day-to-day function, but they are about to do something really big. They know their body is going to go through the stressful event of a marathon, their competition, or their game, and so they’ll make sure that they’re getting enough carbs and then extra so that they’ve got all the full stores of the blood sugar, the glucose stored in their muscles and their liver. So that when their body is under that stress, it can reach into those reserves.

There are certain athletes that are choosing to use ketones for energy, and they don’t have a lick of fat on them so they can’t really wait for the body to burn off some fat for ketones. They’ll supplement with ketones before they go into an event so the body can use up those ketones as energy.

My friend had a question and I thought that was interesting. You just mentioned this so this is perfect. You mentioned that we can preload if we know we’re about to go into a stressful event. Let’s say you’re going out for a night drinking with your girlfriends, you can pre-load some Nadovim. And please, take your B vitamin, hydrate, and all that. I don’t advocate for alcohol, but I understand, once in a while, if you’re going to blow off some steam with your girlfriends or something, there are things you can do so you feel really good the next day instead of really crappy the next day. You definitely want to add Nadovim to that to preload if you’re going into that kind of stress. You’re having fun but you know you’re putting stress on the body.

But is there a point where it becomes toxic? Is there a point where there’s a dose we should avoid, or is it something the body uses? It doesn’t hurt the body to use it. Getting into understanding that, how long does it take for the body to clear it out of the system? Is it cleared out through the kidneys or through the liver? Can you just explain a little bit about just understanding how much we should take? Is there an upper limit to the dose, and what happens if someone takes too much? How is it cleared out of the body?


[00:51:16] Caspar Szulc: With everything, you could have too much water, you could have too much oxygen, you could have too much of anything in this world. I don’t like when people like there’s no way this could ever harm you or anything. I mean, listen, you could take a bunch and this isn’t anything that is toxic. It will be flushed through the liver. It will be broken down. Will it cause some stress? I’m sure if you took an enormous amount.

But you have to understand that a lot of times when you do these infusions, you take in thousands and thousands of milligrams sometimes at a time. We’re talking about 200 that’s going through the oral system, as opposed to 1000 that’s going through an intravenous directly into the bloodstream. There are no toxic elements to that, and that’s a completely safe method of getting NAD+ into the system and utilizing that. It will be somewhat utilized within the cells, and those that aren’t are easily passed out without any of that toxic element that you would have in many synthetic drugs and chemicals.

We found it as an incredibly safe method of delivering something that will provide you with energy and that every single cell utilizes, so you go through a lot of NAD+. Again, if you’re talking about someone that is depleted, then it’s important to look at that as a cause of symptoms as a cause of dysfunction in a healthy state.

When we look at this idea of are there toxicity, I think at any high, high rate, anything can be a toxin to the body. We all say the devil is in the dosage, but there’s a lot of forgiveness with something like NAD+. There’s a lot of forgiveness with applying it through an oral method where you could take double the dosage, four-pill, that really wouldn’t do too much as opposed to something where if you took a synthetic material, if you doubled that, it may have a huge impact on you.

The body is utilizing it. It’s just like with oxygen or anything else, it knows what to do with it. Even if it’s too much, it will change and adapt to that in a way that doesn’t make it toxic that the kidneys can expel, that goes out within the urine and through just through your GI system. 

We felt it was a wonderful option for those who are suffering from any type of brain fog, anything like that. And again, I do believe that too many people don’t even recognize that they are suffering from some small kind of version of brain fog, short-term memory loss, all these things. I think it’s almost an epidemic right now where we’re required to focus so much. We’re required to use our brains.

You talk about the industrial revolution, we’re required to use our muscles a lot. Now we’re in the information age. We’re in an age where we sit in front of a computer for long bouts of time and need to process things very quickly. All these tabs open you think about and then you have your phone. You walk around anywhere in this day and age, everyone’s going to be looking down their phone and processing so many pieces of information. That’s just the brain at work. We’re asking so much of our brains these days. That’s why it was really important to find something, well, how do we protect that one thing that top scientists said is the most complex object in the universe is your brain?

It was really important to find out how to do that without being like this limitless pill, let’s say, from the movie that had so many side effects, that was a chemical. There are definitely ways you could stimulate the brain that is chemically induced. Lots of drugs do that. Adderall is a type of methamphetamine that does that, but that has serious consequences. While I would never compare having Nadovim to something like that, to a drug, I would say that I think it’s a happy medium between nothing or just going about your day and being in that state of brain fog and trying something like Adderall or anything else.

We’ve actually had people that were Adderall utilize this and say that it was actually really good to utilize that instead of that and get away from the jitters, get away from the side effects of that, get away from the sleepless nights. I mean, NAD+ is really useful for chronobiological restoration. So people have deeper sleep and we noticed that with people wearing Oura rings. Their sleep score went up dramatically and their deep sleep went up. That was again an unintended benefit for many people who are just trying to enhance their cognitive functioning, then saw better sleep, and saw better skin because again, this is getting into every single cell and helping it regenerate, and helping it do what it needs to do. That’s absolutely going to impact your skin, which needs to regenerate so much. It needs to get toxins out of it, how do you do that? Every cell needs to do that also and expel.

When you really break it down, we are truly happy with creating this because while we were honed in on the brain, it had so many other uses, and we hear that from users all the time that so many other improvements happen on top of improving brain function.


[00:56:47] Ashley James: ADHD, people who have problems with concentration, they were enjoying the benefits of Nadovim and seeing that it helped them much better than Adderall, which like you said has those side effects. I have a really close friend who 15 years ago was on Adderall and to this day still suffers from the side effects because it compromised his ability to make healthy stress hormones. This is 15 years later after he’s off those drugs, his body is still not regulating his stress hormones appropriately, that is a side effect.

You can get off a drug and you may have side effects years later, which just blows my mind. We’re not given true informed consent when we get on drugs. Informed consent is when the doctor tells you here are all the possible things that could go wrong, here are all the things that could go right, and here are all the alternatives that you could choose to do instead of this. I mean, have you ever had that talk with your doctor? No. They’re like, hey, get on this. You might notice diarrhea, call me if you do. They might list three side effects, but they’re not really telling you you might have long-term damage from this. They’re not going to sit down with you and give you all the studies and explain to you, give you true informed consent. We have to essentially advocate for that and also go do our own research, read through some papers, and inform ourselves about the effects of a drug or a treatment, not just leave it up to the doctor. That’s what true informed consent is.

I think if everyone got true informed consent, a lot of people would ask for a second opinion, go see some other kinds of doctors, hopefully, holistic doctors, functional medicine doctors like at your clinic so they’re getting better integrative medicine, and look at other options, look at other choices that would have less side effects or hopefully no side effects and just side benefits seeing other parts of their body healing. Like we’re doing with Nadovim, seeing all these other side benefits like skin. You already knew it was going to help with the brain but seeing that it’s helping improve other systems of the body because every cell that has mitochondria will use NAD+. That makes so much sense.

But the fact that you had the testimonials from people who have been on Adderall or know they have ADHD and are seeing that they’re able to perform better on something natural that isn’t going to harm them. It’s natural in that the body is deplete of this substance. It’s what the body needs, not an artificial substance that has all these side effects that actually ends up depleting the body more of NAD+ because the body has to use up more NAD+ in order to clear out those toxins of the drug. It just blows my mind. We take someone with an illness or with symptoms like ADHD, give them something that then depletes them further of NAD+ when their brain actually needed more NAD+ to function better.


[01:00:23] Caspar Szulc: It’s a vicious cycle and you can’t blame the doctors if that’s the option they’re giving. You can’t blame a handyman if he comes and he only has a hammer and he’s trying to fix the pipe and just using that instead of a wrench. Can you really blame them so much? Another point to that whole informed consent is that I think it’s really difficult nowadays to truly have informed consent because it’s so hard to weed through so many different pieces of information. You have one piece of data that shows it’s good, you have another research study that may show you something else.

The thing that I would love to see with people that are going through anything is the ability to go in a pattern that makes sense to try things that are the least toxic and easiest to get and then work your way up. Why would you come in with a little bit of pain and go straight to surgery? That happens a lot. A lot of doctors are like, oh, this could be this. Let’s go in with back surgery, which my father performed back surgery. There is a lot of complications that may arise when you start opening and start working on the spine, tons.

When I looked at medicine, I thought we had it positioned incorrectly. Aside from the whole informed consent piece of it, it’s that we went from 0 to 100 way too quick. We went from I have pain to being on painkillers like that. Why didn’t you go to a chiropractor first? Why didn’t you go to acupuncture? Why didn’t you try this anti-inflammatory? Why don’t you try turmeric? There’s a list of things we should try. For me, the same is with, okay, you have some brain fog, why go directly to Adderall?

Or you have someone with ADHD, why would you put them on something that is a Class III or so drug that can be abused so easily, that has real side effects? That even if you were informed that much, you could easily find stuff that is just like, whoa, that kind of scares me a little bit what I’m hearing about some people that use this. And of course, you could look at something like Nadovim and be like well, it’s not a double-blind placebo and it doesn’t have a vast, vast improvement in this. Yeah, but sometimes that’s what your body is just craving a little bit. You don’t have to go all-in on something that has all of these side effects.

I sometimes have to sit there and laugh when I watch a pharmaceutical drug commercial. It’s like 10 seconds of people being happy followed by 30 seconds of really quick talk about everything that could go wrong with you.


[01:03:07] Ashley James: It could cause inner leakage and death.


[01:03:09] Caspar Szulc: And then they’re happy in the background, dancing to the nice music and everything. It’s like, why would you turn to that as your first recourse? Unfortunately, what happens and what we see in medicine is that they turn to that, they turn to surgery, they turn to really big things, they still don’t get better, and then they turn back to the easy stuff like Nadovim, going to a holistic center, or something like that when already, it’s like, whoa, there’s a lot going on wrong now. If you came to us first, maybe it would have been much easier.

So I think it’s a little bit backward in that sense alone. Even with informed consent, it’s just about the number of options. If you started training like if you were just out of shape, maybe a little overweight, you wouldn’t go to an Olympic trainer and be like, all right, I’m going all-in with this Olympic trainer—six times a week, three hours, moving into this big gym out there. It would be like, why are you doing that? Just do some push-ups in the morning, start there. Start with something simple and easy that won’t require so much of you and go from there.

On top of doing their own research, which I think is incredibly important, I think what I’ve heard from a lot of people is it’s confusing. There is a research study by the manufacturer of this drug that shows it’s amazing. Then there are people on forums that say they grew a third arm from this. Then there’s this, then there’s that. The paradox of choice isn’t good, that’s not informed consent either in a sense. I think you just want to go with, well, why don’t I try this? 

And again, I think there is this element of what do you feel? Don’t listen to the doctors, to the commercials, to the people trying to get your money. Don’t even listen to me in a sense, I would say. What are you feeling? What does your intuition say? And I feel that’s something we’ve totally gotten away from. Because I see patients all the time being like, should I do this? It’s like, I’m not answering that question for you. This medicine isn’t for everyone. There’s a lot of responsibility involved. You’ll have to change your lifestyle, you’ll have to do a lot of things that you may not want to do, but I think this is a great option. But at the end of the day, you have to make the choice. What feels good to you? Maybe going on the drug is right for you right now because you know you won’t go through those lifestyle changes right now. Maybe in a little bit you will.

Where we are with Nadovim is like well why won’t you start there instead of let’s say Adderall or going to something even bigger or really undergoing some big medical procedures for the brain or anything like that. Give it a try. It’s not a huge investment. It is relatively safe, you could say. I won’t sit here and be like it’s absolutely 100% safe. I mean, you could have some reaction to something in there, thymine or something maybe, but incredibly small because again these are all-natural elements. You should be getting them from your food anyway.

That’s my input on that because I do see that happening a lot within the medical field and within just this idea of all right, what are my options? It’s like, whoa, you went really quick from being like I have a little pain to again going under the knife, or I have a little brain fog to being on a high dosage of something that’s addictive and has a lot of side effects.


[01:06:28] Ashley James: Right. I have a friend who’s a Naturopathic physician and she became—I don’t know, jaded maybe because when she first started out, she’d get patients that came in with high blood pressure. She’d be like, okay, you’re going to walk 20 minutes every day, you’re going to eat this way, and take these supplements. Then they’d come back and they still have high blood pressure and they hadn’t done anything or maybe they did one out of three things that she told them to do. It’s like, no, you’ve got to make these lifestyle changes because that’s what’s causing the high blood pressure. We’re going to listen to the symptoms of the body and give the body what it needs.

Not everyone is willing to, motivated to, or are ready to make lifestyle changes that would give them better health, which just blows my mind because I’m like, tell me what to do, I’m ready to do it. I want to be better. I want to be even better. I’m always striving for better health because I suffered for so many years. So many of my listeners are sick of being sick and they’re motivated. They’re here listening, they’re listening for over an hour because they are motivated to make healthy changes in their life. But maybe they have a husband, a friend, an aunt, or whatever that has these problems but they’re not willing to stop drinking a bottle of wine a night. They’re not willing to go for a walk for 20 minutes every day.

You can’t do it for them. The Naturopathic doctor or the functional medicine practitioner isn’t going to come home with you and get you to make these lifestyle changes. It is up to us as individuals. I like that Nadovim is a small thing you can start. If it seems too daunting, too overwhelming to exercise every day. If you haven’t been exercising for years, it’s like oh gosh, that just seems overwhelming. But could you start your day off with a big glass of water and a capsule of Nadovim? Yes.

That’s what my friend does who says she just floats through her day, bounces through her day. She gets up at I think 5:30 in the morning to be able to beat the traffic to drive because she lives pretty far away from Seattle. She has a beautiful cabin in the woods, so she has to get up before everyone else and go downtown Seattle. Then she manages this huge, huge ordeal. She does manage this big company, all the people below her that report to her, and all the decisions she has to make throughout the day.

Every time we make a decision, it uses up our brainpower. There are some fun studies about that at the end of the day, that’s why at 11:00 at night you can’t stick to your diet and you’re standing there in front of the fridge, I’ll just eat everything. Because every time we make a decision, we only have a certain amount of decisions. The power of our brain can only handle so many decisions in a day because the brain now ran out of its NAD+ and it’s just shovel food in my face, I can’t take it anymore. Throughout the day, every decision we make depletes more of that energy of the brain. 

I just wonder how NAD+, how Nadovim would help since it’s supporting the brain’s ability to have energy. How that would then translate into increasing our ability to have willpower at the end of the day? So there are fun studies about willpower and how it gets depleted if we work at a job that requires us to make a lot of decisions, a lot of choices throughout the day. I don’t know if you’ve ever done that where you had to make a ton of choices and at the end of the day, your brain is spent and you can actually feel it. It’s like it’s depleted of its energy and nutrients.

But yeah, she just always has energy and always bounces around. I’ve always been impressed by her, now I know her secret, and I’m so excited to know that it’s because she’s been taking the supplement. She said it’s her absolute favorite supplement.

What about depression? You kind of mention that. How does Nadovim help people who have depression?


[01:10:42] Caspar Szulc: Again, depression is one of those things you got to look at from a holistic standpoint. I even read and interviewed Dr. Jodie Skillicorn who wrote a book about healing depression without medication. She basically said the idea being chemical imbalances has been debunked and we’re going about all wrong, depression. There are so many different contributing factors—diet, of course, your microbiome now is really linked to depression and certain strains even being there.

I mean, there are so many different causes of depression. But at the end of the day, if you have the vitality or the energy to make decisions that are going to be better for you, I think that’s everything. I think that’s a huge part of getting out of a depressive state somewhat. Depression is a terrible state to be in, but it’s also one that drains you considerably. It’s one of those states that if you look at the scale of consciousness and what David Hawkins put out there, it’s a negative conscious state, very low and draining of energy, and keeps you down. You need to work yourself up from there—from feelings of guilt, hate, depression, shame—up into neutrality.

The idea that you would have more energy to make certain things, to go to certain things, to get outside, and have these small wins can be the difference in starting to get out of depression. Of course, each case is different. I’m not going to say that if you’re chronically depressed and take Nadovim you’ll be better. There’s a ton of things you probably have to do to get your state into a good emotional state out of depressive moods.

The one thing that I keep turning back to when people ask about these things in general wellness, depression, depressive moods is this idea of you never have time or you’re just stuck and you have this outlook on life that is depressive. I think when you have energy and vitality that shifts. The greatest resource, everyone has 24 hours in the day, do you have the energy to actually do things? Do you, like you said, come home and just lay around, turn on Netflix, sit there, and then start to question your life, what am I doing? I’m just sitting around not meeting people. That could keep you in a depressive mood.

I think what we’ve realized even through this whole lockdown is we need connection, but at the same time, if we don’t have the willingness, the vitality, the energy to even get up out of bed when we get in really early at night, just sit there and like you said, just veg out because we have no will power left, and just sit there and kind of become zombies to a TV screen or even a computer screen. That can lead to a loss of purpose, a loss of connection. I think those are some of the biggest causes of depression. I would much rather look at those sorts of things than look at chemical imbalances and just drug you up and say take this pill, this antidepressant. We know that can have serious consequences as well as dependency.

When I look at something like depression, this feeling which I also correlate with a feeling of lack of purpose, which I see in tons of patients. At one point, we were creating a program for patients of things they could do outside of the office because we knew we only had them an hour or two a week in the office for treatments. So many would ask, what should I do outside? And of course, we gave them all these tips but we wanted to put in a program.

We interviewed hundreds of patients, hundreds of doctors, and really wanted to get it down to an X factor. What’s that one thing that was the difference between two people with the same diagnosis, same treatment plans, same everything, demographic. So what we saw when we took two patients with a similar demographic, similar diagnosis, similar background, and went through similar treatment plans was that if one got better and one didn’t, we wanted to know what the difference was. Why was one receiving the same type of treatment plan getting better and the other one would maybe see improvement but then slide back after the treatment plan was done?

The thing we really broke it down to, this X factor, was purpose. It was this idea that one had a purpose to go live, see her grandchildren, and travel the world. Whereas the other one didn’t. They were still very much stuck on I am disease X, that is who I am. They didn’t really have a purpose. Maybe they’ve been out of work for a while and were chronically ill in bed, and suddenly even the idea of what do I do, what is the next step in my life kind of scared them. And they didn’t have that purpose. We really ingrained in this program, what we did was first, create a purpose for you. It could be anything. It could be I would love to go skiing in the Swiss Alps, or I’d love to run a 5K and just keep that in mind. 

I think something like a supplement like NAD+, it gives you the vitality and the cognitive functioning to be able to really focus on that, to be able to do certain things and take those steps. Have that little bit of energy to start with one small win, one small step. Like you said, if it’s getting better, start with just waking up and having that glass of water and that’ll be one step. The next day, get up and take a few deep breaths. The next day, have a little bit more energy and stretch a little bit. See yourself running that 5K more and more and be positive. The next day takes a few more steps down the stairs, maybe walk outside, maybe do 0.1 k your first time right and then keep going from there. I think where Nadovim falls, it gives you that little bit of energy, edge, and clarity to do that and to always be focused on this purpose. 

So I think when you look at anything, whether it’s depression, whether it’s getting out of a state of feeling stuck in your life, or being disconnected, it’s about finding what really brings you passion and that purpose. It could be something small, it could be something big. That’s up to you. Don’t look anywhere else for that. Really sit down with a journal. Write that down. But then use little things, little pieces, little tips. Whether that’s breathing techniques or anything else, or Nadovim to then give you the best chances to see that through, to take those little small steps.

I think when you’re really stuck on that, when every day before you go to sleep, when you wake up you’re thinking about that thing, what you want to do, what you want to accomplish, that becomes a priority. Like you said, I think right now what people are suffering from—health isn’t a priority to them. That’s the truth. The unfortunate truth is that for too many people, they have the ability to make the right choices, they have the ability to do these things, and they don’t. They will drink every night. They will stay up late, take pills, or whatever. That’s not to fall. I never like to put blame and guilt, but it’s just to say take responsibility.

If you truly prioritize something, if that means the world to you, you’ll put it at the top. You’ll stop, you’ll close your computer screen at 9:00 PM because you know that’s going to screw up your circadian rhythms and probably keep you up at night stressing. Then you’ll have a bad day, you’ll need coffee again, your adrenals will go down, it’ll become habitual, you’ll need sleeping pills to go to sleep, lots of caffeine in the morning, and suddenly you’re wondering why your hormones all screwed up and you’re chronically ill. That’s the thing.

I think when you take something like Nadovim, it gives you an edge to actually see through those choices. It gives you that little bit of a boost to then say, okay, I want to do this. That’s what I realized. I mean, I’m not immune to any of this. Even though I work in a center, I have access to wonderful things. I live in New York City, it’s stressful. I run multiple companies, that’s stressful. Sometimes I work way too long, but when I do realize, hey, I prioritize health. I have the energy to see through certain things and do them correctly, then I do take 20 minutes to meditate on a stressful day. I do drink more fluids and stand up a lot more even though I could be glued to my computer doing work all day.

I think that’s what leads me to believe where Nadovim’s place in something like depression isn’t the treatment of depression so much. Although it could be the source, you never know. I’m not saying it is or isn’t. NAD+ depletion may be a cause of depression for sure, but at the same time, even if it weren’t, I would say take it also because I think it’ll lead you to have that clarity and that extra mental boost to then see through actions that bring you out of a depressive state, that get you connected again to the world that brings you into your purpose and passion.


[01:19:35] Ashley James: Oh, I love that answer. That’s so fantastic. So many studies have shown that those who have depression or even suicidal, if they volunteer, they find that they get more joy and more out of volunteering than what they’re actually giving. We think volunteering is almost like being a martyr. Oh, I have to give away my time and my energy. But really, you actually get back more. It’s just amazing. You can make an impact on the world and then that is helping you even more. There are so many studies that show that it not only helps with depression, it actually increases longevity. Those who volunteer, who have a life purpose, or feel that they’re making a difference in their community live longer. That makes a lot of sense.

That NAD+ depletion, in and of itself, could be the factor that’s having them feel depressed. Like you said, we’re just starting to understand how this very complex system works—the brain. We’re even discovering that the gut is like a second brain, and then they’re discovering now that the heart is almost like a third brain. We always thought it was just the brain telling the organs information. But what we’re seeing is that all this new information that we’re discovering is that the heart and the gut is actually giving information back to the brain. It’s like these three brains in the body are communicating.

The book, The Holographic Universe—a fantastic book to read—talks about how we think all of our cognitive abilities and all of our neurological functions happen in the brain. It actually happens holographically throughout the entire nervous system. That we can store memories not just in the brain, but in other neurological tissue throughout the body. I recommend reading that book for anyone that wants to just have their mind blown literally. Understanding that what we think we know, what we’ve been taught about neurology is so far off from what we actually are and it’s very complex.

Of course, a nutrient deficiency could be the root cause of these issues. That makes total sense. Also, everyone benefits from focusing on a life purpose, focusing on feeling like they’re making a difference in this world, a difference in their family, or a difference with their friends, whatever is within your value system.

Anti-aging was a big buzzword for a long time. They call it other things now, even reversing aging. Dr. Daniel Amen, I’ve been fascinated with his research and have been following him for the last few years. He was able to scan the brain and see that there are certain pockets in the brain that as people aged, and it depended on their diet, their lifestyle, and their nutrient deficiencies because a 20-year-old can start to have these sort of age spots within the brain. When he did these scans, he could see that there were pockets of the brain that weren’t functioning optimally that it was almost like Swiss cheese. That there are pockets of the brain that weren’t getting enough oxygen, weren’t getting enough nutrition. The blood flow was being restricted.

When we think about heart health, there are certain diets that actually will blood flow and make the arteries healthier and you can reverse heart disease. I had Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn on the show who has performed the world’s longest study on using diet to be able to reverse heart disease and prevent it. He wrote the book How to Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease. He shows pictures of hearts that were totally clogged and the arteries that were not getting blood flow through. Then two years later, the same patient completely clear heart. So we can reverse arterial sclerosis and calcification of the arteries. It’s amazing.

You go to a regular MD or maybe most cardiologists and they want to put you on drugs or put stents in, and they haven’t seen this research. They haven’t seen that we can completely reshape, restore, and reverse the aging or the damage. Maybe we shouldn’t be calling it anti-aging anymore. It’s reversing the damage of living and your lifestyle.

If you eat fries every day, that kind of thing, it puts a huge strain on the cardiovascular system. But Dr. Daniel Amen sees that the same things that cause heart disease, we’re basically having heart disease in the brain. That we’re having cardiovascular disease of the brain. It’s like Swiss cheese brain where there are just whole parts of the brain that aren’t getting enough blood flow and they’re kind of dying off or just not functioning optimally. He’s been doing this for over 30 years. He’s been able to follow patients, change their diet, get them on supplements. I wonder if he’s using NAD+ or Nadovim as one of his supplements, and you should definitely reach out to him if he’s not. He has then maps and does these scans and he can see the blood flow coming back, the brain’s restoring, and the Swiss cheese going away. People were having dementia reversing that.

Anti-aging is one of those keywords, one of those catchphrases, but really, it’s reversing the damage that has happened from living—I don’t want to say from aging but from living—because I think there can be a 20-year-old that’s unhealthy as a 60-year-old given lifestyle choices.

With Nadovim, I know that there’s a lot of anti-aging experts that are really excited about Nadovim and have been using it. What are they seeing in terms of reversing the damage or slowing down the aging process?


[01:26:00] Caspar Szulc: Well, there are two parts of this that are pretty exciting when you look at aging and the reversal of aging. Number one would be the mitochondrial theory of aging. That really all aging starts with the mitochondria, which as you said, was originally a bacteria, one cell kind of an organism that predates as far beyond where humans were around and exist in. Really understanding that that’s where it starts on a cellular level. You want to understand everything.

I think there are two ways to understand it. Number one is through energy because we all are energy really—frequencies and vibrations, and that’s Einstein’s wonderful contribution and many other quantum physicists’ contribution to science and changing it forever was that understanding that we aren’t matter at all. The other way is also to look at things really at the building blocks that are kind of visible are physical. Energy packets are in your cell. Understanding that the function of the cell to regenerate and to get the ones that are no longer functioning out requires energy. Once that stops happening, you’ll have aging occur. You’ll have dysfunction occur. That’s really what is triggering an aging response so that this max life potential is really just dictated by mitochondrial function. So if you can improve your mitochondria, that is one great way to increase the age you can live for.

The other way to look at of course is somewhat through DNA and understanding telomeres and understanding how DNA starts to basically work against this in a sense and how we protect DNA and how we again regenerate ourselves. NAD+ does have a positive impact on both of those. NAD+ is directly correlated to something called [inaudible 01:28:00] which helps out with telomerase and also helps with longevity that way.

Looking at it from those perspectives is that NAD+ is a vital compound into great arenas that you could say are dictating how we age. Now, the other element outside of NAD+ and I think something you mentioned there as well is this idea of us aging. I think aging, what we’re doing is living unnaturally. If you’re closer to nature, if you live a natural existence, I think you age at a natural pace. But when we live with light bulbs on all the time, that disrupts our endocrine system. When we eat things that are unnatural and also disrupts so many systems within the body.

We have to kind of reap what we sow, in a sense. Part of that is aging, it can be seen as disease. If you age the body, the functioning of everything doesn’t work as it should and leads to dysfunction, which leads to disease or symptoms and then a disease really.

Those are things you got to incorporate as well because I hate to sit here and be like, take NAD+ and you won’t age, keep eating poorly, smoking, and doing all these things negatively. Live a natural life and you might not need NAD+. Now, at the same time, I have to say, we live in a day and age where you can’t really go out and just hunker down in a cave and be away from everyone and just live naturally there. We do live within the constrictions of being in this modern world, meaning most of us have cell phones, most of us are around light bulbs all the time. You could protect yourself as much as possible, but you’re still going to have an impact on your body. All the actions you do, you’re going to be impacted in this world right now.

That’s the reason also when people like, well, I probably don’t need NAD+, right? I’m really healthy. I get it, you really are. I take care, I’m really healthy, but you still live in a world that unfortunately has introduced so many unnatural things in it that you’re going to be impacted. Even if you’re living far off now, you’re still impacted. That’s just where we are right now, and that’s why I say something like NAD+ is useful for everyone because even if you’re quite healthy, why not pre-plenish? Why wait? Why not take proactive steps? That’s what I think health really is.

I talk about choices and everything like that, but it’s also being proactive to prevent it. To prevent aging and prevent disease, which I say synonymous, are taking the action before they happen. Every one of us usually waits to go see a doctor until something’s wrong. With a dentist, you get your tooth cleaning. Unless it’s in pain, why would you go see a dentist, right? Really go into it. The same is for a doctor and all these things related to our health. 

I wish medicine became more about prevention. I wish it was more proactive. I wish we could catch things earlier on. Even if you didn’t go to a doctor, why not take things like supplementation that you know can absolutely benefit your cellular function, mitochondrial function, all these things that can relate so closely to aging? You could say beauty, to preventing disease, preventing really tough chronic things that again, right now, if you’re healthy, you’re in a minority in the United States. That’s crazy to me. That is a crazy stat that most people don’t realize. That right now, if you’re healthy, you’re a minority. Trust me, in 20 years, you’re going to be a really small minority the way it’s going. It’s going to be 80%, 90% are going to be comorbidities through the roof. Obesity, all of this chronic fatigue, diabetes, it’ll be so normal, then you’re going to be a freak if you’re healthy. That’s scary to me because health is the greatest wealth.

If we don’t start turning things around, we’re in for a really sick society, in many different ways to say that. I will say, be proactive. It doesn’t have to be Nadovim only. I think that’s one little thing. That’s not everything I do. Drink more water, breathe more. All sorts of things. I just wish. I think by taking a pill though you kind of put a burden. You put some money into that pill so there is like a value intrinsic that I’ve seen. It’s almost like when people take medicine they start acting differently almost like a placebo. I’m paying for it, I might as well do other things, and I think that’s a good thing too. I do.


[01:32:45] Ashley James: Yeah, it motivates you.


[01:32:46] Caspar Szulc: It’s why I think you should pay your trainer. Pay them more than you pay up because you won’t skip workouts if it costs a lot and then really take care of yourself. This idea of also free and not having to be responsible for your health, it’s crazy to me. I think it’s part of the reason that the majority of us are sick and waiting for someone to help us out when in reality, we could absolutely take a lot of preventive and proactive steps to being healthy.


 [01:33:15] Ashley James: Yeah. The listeners listening right now, we are the people who in a sense we’re like salmon. We’re swimming upstream. We don’t want to be a statistic. One in three people will have a cancer diagnosis in their lifetime. That is ridiculous. If you’re in a room with three people, one of them is going to have cancer. That is insane. That is absolutely insane.

The idea that our soil is so deplete of minerals and plants can’t make minerals, animals can’t make minerals. They have to come from the soil. If our body is minerally depleted, especially magnesium, which out of all the 60 essential minerals, magnesium is the most important. 1800 enzymatic processes in the body use magnesium. Zinc is the second most important at 800 processes.

Calcium’s not even in the top two, and we’re marketed that we need to drink cow’s milk for calcium. Cow’s milk has a whole host of health issues that it comes with. It causes obesity and heart disease. It depends on who pays for the research, you always have to watch. If there’s a research paper that says cow’s milk is healthy, go follow the money and you’re going to find that it was paid for by someone who benefits from selling cow’s milk. It’s just crazy.

People are unhealthy because of what they were taught, what they were told. We’ve been raised watching McDonald’s commercials and Kellogg’s Fruit Loop cereal, Lucky Charms commercials. We’ve been raised to see that these are actually foods. They’re not foods. They’re something that represents food that’s pretending to be food, but it’s not nutritious for the body. A lot of them are fortified with artificial vitamins that actually do more damage, especially for people who have methylation issues like the MTHFR SNP. So many people have MTHFR because of the toxicity in our environment. That’s what we’re seeing more and more.

My listeners are like salmon, like me. I’m one of those people who’s going to go upstream. I’m okay with not following the herd because if I eat like, act like, and have a lifestyle like the majority of the people out there, then I will be a statistic. I don’t want to be one of those people that one in three has cancer, one in three has diabetes or pre-diabetic.

I was diabetic. I reversed it with natural health changes and following holistic medicine. I’m not going back. My A1C is 4.7. I’m never going back to diabetes. I am just going towards better and better health. I know my listeners are doing the same. They’re highly motivated to make these changes. Even if it’s just adding a supplement and then drinking more water. It’s okay, baby steps. And then going for a walk three times a week. Just add what you can and keep on that path.

My last question is about depletion. When people are on cholesterol meds, and I’ve had several doctors and cardiologists on the show say do not under any circumstances take cholesterol meds. I interviewed a Ph.D. and MD who is also a cardiologist, and he’s a cardiologist researcher. He looks at thousands of patients instead of just one at a time. He was the discoverer of the true cause of heart disease. That the true cause of heart disease is inflammation, and actually the cause of most diseases. You have to look to inflammation, then look to what causes inflammation, and then make diet and lifestyle changes to decrease that inflammation. 

This was 30 years ago 40 years ago, while all the doctors were being told to put everyone on cholesterol-lowering meds, he said cholesterol is not the cause of heart disease. It’s a symptom that comes later after inflammation has done its damage. What’s causing inflammation? We have to go deeper, go deeper. The symptoms are being treated, but the root cause still continues to progressively do damage to the body.

When people are put on cholesterol-lowering meds, there are so many side effects that happen. The patients end up not being able to feel their hands or their feet, then they can’t walk properly, then they stop exercising, and they live a more sedentary lifestyle. That leads to early death. So that’s just one problem that we see is happening with cholesterol-lowering meds because the neuropathy is caused by reducing the body’s ability to make healthy cholesterol that is used for the myelin sheath of the nervous system. So it’s doing damage to the nervous system.

Well, another thing it does, by taking cholesterol-lowering meds, is that it decreases the coenzyme q10, which if you don’t have any coenzyme q10 in your body, your heart is not going to beat. Your heart will stop beating. That’s fuel for that wonderful muscle that we all love so much. It’s great that there’s some coenzyme q10 in because it’s one of those cofactors that you saw really benefited the nervous system. It’s absolutely needed.

What doctors will say now when they keep their patients on cholesterol-lowering meds, they tell them to take a low dose actually of coq10. Now you mentioned that the body, when it needs to clear out drugs like the liver, has to process the toxins from these artificial chemical drugs and that depletes NAD+ in the body. Are there any drugs that significantly decrease NAD+, like absolutely what doctors should be doing if they ever put them on XYZ drug, that they should be taking an NAD+ supplement because it has such a drastic effect on our NAD+, or is it just like all drugs in general?


[01:39:38] Caspar Szulc: I mean, honestly, it’s all drugs in general. Every single drug has a toxic element to it and it’s going to require NAD+ to then flush that. Anything that’s a toxin and the body basically requires NAD+. That’s why you look at things like oxidative stress within the body and then just free radical formation—all these things are all part of the equation. Of course, the more toxic, the stronger drugs are, the more NAD+ is required. What do we do with everyone that’s on a lifelong intervention? At a certain point, you have to boost because you’re getting used to the drug, right? Your body is adjusting to it in a sense, which the body always does. It always adjusts.

You’re giving it something synthetic, it’s not supposed to be there in a way, the body will adjust. It will try and maintain and go into homeostasis. What do we do? We give stronger drugs. We go higher milligrams and dosage. Guess what, that just depletes more and more NAD+. So we go in this vicious cycle of well, you’re going to need more because you’re not getting the effects of the lower dosage anymore so we’ll put you on this. And then what happens, you get a symptom from that down the line. Okay, that’s a known symptom. No worries. We’ll put you on another drug. Guess what, more NAD+ depletion.

This approach we have with medicine right now, if you really took a step back, it makes no sense. It’s something that we’re just trying to manage everything in the body with something synthetic, which has lots of side effects that we’re not even incorporating. No doctor is thinking about NAD+ depletion when they give you a cholesterol medication. They can care less. They’re solving a problem, in a sense. Your cholesterol is here, we want it here, take this drug. That’s all I care about. That’s all I’ve been taught. And again, I’m not faulting doctors. I love them. My father’s a doctor. He was in conventional medicine for tens of years and I still have tons of friends and very close colleagues that are still abiding by the conventional and orthodox way of going about it. They are taught that way and they are doing good in the sense that someone comes in with pain and they leave without pain.

But the long-term ramifications of chronic disease, you can’t really say that we’re winning that battle. That we’re doing something that’s really getting to the core of it and reversing disease. When you have this many people on this many medications, you’re bound to be depleting not just of NAD+, many other really, really important elements within the body that are critical to just regeneration to health in general. 

To anyone listening, I’m not bashing it because it’s required at times. But I would want to take a different approach that yes, it’s required at times, but what’s the quickest way to get off of them? What’s the quickest way to get your body back to where it’s in a self-regulating space? It doesn’t require outside intervention of drugs within the body to do what it should be doing, and that’s really my mission is to show people. Because again, I’m not a doctor, I’m not going to go out there and push all the clinical data on everyone and go in that really technical analysis of each disease. 

I’m here to tell you what I’ve seen within the 40 years or so I’ve been in medicine or around it to say that prioritizes health, and understand that your natural state is health. Don’t buy into that disease, I’m going to live with that forever because that’s not a narrative you want to be in because it is one that will lead to depression and this giving up on your own body to do what it should be doing. These miraculous things of healing itself every single day and so many processes that allow us to live are just really phenomenal when you take a step back and say, damn, my body does all of that in one second. Trillions of chemical actions that allow us to live and in perfect unity and harmony doing all this.

Put more faith in your body in a sense and start to understand that there are options out there. One of them is taking, of course, something like NAD+ or Nadovim, but there are so many other options out there to bring you back into a healthy state because as long as you are taking any drugs or anything, that’s kind of the admission that you’re in a disease state. Without the drugs, you are in a disease state and you still are. Your cholesterol is high. Yes, we’re managing it. Then you’re telling me if you got off that pill you’d be healthy, no. It’s not making you healthy. It’s just managing your disease. 

I want people to think about it differently. Stop managing disease. Yes, there’s a time and place you need to manage things, but it’s not a lifelong process. It doesn’t have to be. If you prioritize health and you start listening to great podcasts such as this one and start to appreciate a different approach to what health can be, what it should be, which is this natural state where you don’t need this intervention, other people giving you things to make you healthy, that’s when you know there is going to be a breakthrough, I think, not only in yourself but in society as a whole. That’s really what I’m aiming for. If Nadovim is just one of those hundreds of thousands of probably solutions out there, that’s great. Try it out. I will say, experience is what’s going to lead you there. You could look at all the evidence in the world, but until you start experiences, start taking an action, it doesn’t really matter what the evidence says because you’re not applying it to yourself anyway.

It’s one of those things that so many of us rely on medication that in reality, if you broke it down even to this one thing of looking how can I be NAD+ depleted? Because you’re taking lots of medications, that’s one of the reasons. Even to take them, there really should be no contraindications of the medication. I won’t say that for everyone. I do think you need to talk to your doctor before anything. I can’t speak for every medication out there. I know there are somewhere if you provided energy to the mitochondria, you might have a reaction of pushing certain toxins from certain drugs that you may not want to and it may exacerbate some conditions. That’s true I think for anything you do if you’re on certain medications. Do speak with your doctor about it.

I will say this, a lot of doctors don’t even know what NAD+ is, and that’s kind of sad to me because it is such an important compound. But we’ve had customers be like my doctor didn’t know what it was so he didn’t want me on it. I would say you have the power, doctors don’t. They think they do. I know doctors and they’re like, I’m telling you, I went to medical school. If they don’t have patients they don’t have a practice, they don’t have a career. They listen to patients, they really do.

I’m not saying be nosy. Well, you should do research, but just ask your doctor. I’ve heard this, other doctors said this about, maybe you’d want to do a little research. Push back a little bit. I think this idea that doctors are infallible and know everything, that’s just crazy to me. They’re regular people. They don’t know everything, and why would you expect them to?


[01:47:03] Ashley James: Yeah, they’re not machines, they’re not computers.


[01:47:05] Caspar Szulc: No, no, no. They’re not computers. They’re specialists normally. I’ve met doctors that know nothing about other systems of the body and only about the GI. If you ask them anything about the brain, they would know very little. I mean that training, they forget it. You don’t remember everything you trained and learned about in college. I don’t remember my first year of college, what I learned in marketing there. Probably terms they’re completely outdated anyway now.

I think there is something to be said. When a doctor says something, you’re allowed to ask why. Not in an adversarial way because I love doctors and I know a lot of people come in and just print out WebMD things and be like, oh, I think I have this. Doctors don’t like that, but I think there’s this ability to see yourself in a relationship with a doctor. 

Our doctors here and everything, they’re coaches. You’re the athlete, you do need to listen, but it’s a back and forth. It’s a relationship of trust. It’s a relationship of being able to look at all the options and both sides doing the research. And be able to find a doctor that you really feel comfortable with I think. It’s not that all doctors are created equal, they are not. There are many different. All I think have good intentions, but that doesn’t mean every doctor is the right one, or just because they’re in your health insurance plan that you should just listen to them. Seek out other options and see, and then maybe one is going to be like, oh yeah, NAD+, I know that stuff. That would be great for you, you should do that.


[01:48:38] Ashley James: Your New York Center for Innovative Medicine, can people from around the world work with your functional medicine doctors through Skype? Can they do telemedicine basically with them, or do they have to go there in order to work with your doctors?


[01:48:57] Caspar Szulc: We’re old school in that way, we want to work with people here. This is where the treatments are. There’s only so much we could do. You could do a consultation. We have a patient ambassador that we speak with that is a practitioner here that you could do consultations with and talk to. But when it comes to actually getting treatment, it’s here because of the fact that we have over 100 therapies here. I mean, we really take pride in the amount of therapies and the way we personalize them to each. But if you’re not here, we can’t do that.

The idea of being training with a coach and him not being there when you’re doing labs or doing all these other things, that’s difficult, that’s tough. A lot of times, if you require an intravenous infusion because you are depleted of something, it’s very difficult to do that when you’re not here. We want to be responsible for that. While we understand that traveling isn’t always easy, we also think health is a priority. If you want to get it done right with us, then come. We’ll make it as easy as possible, trying to do it as quickly as possible if you’re traveling. We have people come here from all over the world and it is unique in that way that you have so many options and it’s not just NAD+. That’s again just one of the tons of different ingredients we’d use in IVs, but we also have spiritual things, psychological. We have a psychologist on hand, psycho-emotional therapies, all types of energy medicines, anti-aging. I mean you got to run the gambit.

Again, if you show up to a house with just a hammer, you may not fix the problem. You want a good tool kit, you do. You want all those things in there. That’s important. But at the same time, I will and everyone here will speak to anybody, even if they can’t come into the center, we have great resources, great information, and a great network of people that can help in some way, shape, or form. So if you’re not ready to make it over to New York or you’re not sure, I mean, there are still so many steps you can take. Whether that’s just taking Nadovim, that’s a great step. It’s learning, listening to our podcast, or doing anything like that. We wanted to make it easy for anyone to empower themselves and make the right choices for their health even if they can’t get into the clinic.


[01:51:15] Ashley James: Awesome. Thank you, Caspar Szulc, for coming on the show and sharing about NAD+ and Nadovim. Back when I was just starting to get on the health train, I decided to buy my B vitamin supplements and I had no idea that I had MTHFR. I bought my B vitamin supplements from Trader Joe’s and I didn’t really notice the difference. I didn’t really feel that much more energy. I kind of felt nauseous actually when I took them, and then my pee turned a bright yellow. It wasn’t until years later that I met with a naturopathic doctor who formulated his protocol and it was life-changing. Within five days, I was waking up just so much energy in the morning with mental clarity. I felt like I was a kid again, and that’s the difference between really high quality and it was the same. If you look at the back of the package and they look kind of similar if you don’t know what you’re looking for and you don’t know about the companies, okay, this has B vitamins, that has B vitamins. Why was it that taking one kind of made me nauseous and didn’t really give me energy, and the other one no nausea and it was a total game-changer, totally life-changing, and yet they looked on paper sort of similar supplements?

When you go to a company that puts so much into making sure there’s quality and bioavailability and that really they developed it so that doctors could see a difference, so that they could do blood tests and see a difference, that they could study it and study the effects of it, that company has put in all the work to make something that is quality that you’re going to notice a difference you’ll really notice a difference. 

There are other NADs out there I’ve seen, and it’s buyer beware because, in the supplement industry, someone could sell a bottle that says they NAD+ on it, or says ginkgo biloba on it, or vitamin C and there actually has no ginkgo biloba, no vitamin C, or no NAD+ in it. It could be all filler, and that is the buyer beware of the supplement industry. It’s not regulated, which we don’t want it to be because the second it becomes regulated, then they will take it all away and make it drugs. We don’t want it to be regulated, but that means we have to do our research and make sure the company is legitimate and really the company has the ethics and the high-quality standards to make sure that what’s in the bottle is what’s on the label.

That’s why I’m happy to know that Nadovim exists, the quality is there. It’s and the coupon code is LTH for our listeners. I’m really excited for listeners to try it. Get a bottle, just try it for themselves, and then come into the Learn True Health Facebook group and share their experience. I want to hear from everyone, I’m going to do it as well, and we’ll just see what differences we notice. Big differences, small differences, no differences. I’m excited about the energy and the sleep, I think that’s great.

I’m looking forward to, over the next few months, hearing back from listeners as we try it out for ourselves. Just give it a try and see what differences we notice. The proof in the pudding is in the eating so let’s try it and see what happens.

It was wonderful having you on the show. I’m excited to try all this and see for ourselves. Thank you for coming here and explaining it today.


[01:54:41] Caspar Szulc: Thank you. Real pleasure, Ashley.


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Recommended Reading by Caspar Szulc

Power vs. Force by David Hawkins