Learn True Health with Ashley James

On Learn True Health, Ashley James interviews today's most successful natural healers each week. Learn True Health was created for YOU, the health enthusiast. If you are passionate about organic living or struggling with health issues and are looking to gain your health naturally, our holistic podcast is what you have been looking for! Ashley James interviews Naturopathic Doctors and expert holistic health care practitioners to bring you key holistic health information, results based advice and new natural steps you can take to achieve true health, starting NOW! If you are sick and tired of being sick and tired, if you are fed up with prescription drug side effects, if you want to live in optimal health but you don't know where to start, this podcast is for you! If you are looking for ACTIONABLE advice from holistic doctors to get you on your path to healing, you will enjoy the wisdom each episode brings. Each practitioner will leave you with a challenge, something that you can do now, and each day, to measurably improve your health, energy, and vitality. Learn about new healing diet strategies, how to boost your immune system, balance your hormones, increase your energy, what supplements to take and why and how to experience your health and stamina in a new way. Ashley James from Learn True Health interviews doctors like Dr. Joel Wallach, Dr. Andrew Weil, Dr. Deepak Chopra, Dr. Oz, Dr. Joseph Mercola and Dr. Molly Niedermeyer on Naturopathic Medicine, Homeopathy, Supplements, Meditation, Holistic Health and Alternative Health Strategies for Gaining Optimal Health.
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Now displaying: 2019
Nov 13, 2019

"Eat plants, fit in your pants." Chef AJ lost over 50lbs and has kept it off eating over 2lbs of veggies a day

Listen to my first interview with Chef AJ, episode 278:

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Chef AJ's Books:

The Secrets to Ultimate Weight Loss: A Revolutionary Approach to Conquer Cravings, Overcome Food Addiction and Lose Weight Without Going Hungry

Unprocessed: How to Achieve Vibrant Health and Your Ideal Weight


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Nov 8, 2019

Join the Learn True Health Facebook group to get the latest scoop on the upcoming NEW Learn True Health Home Kitchen Membership!


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 Jon Paul's Site:




Oct 31, 2019

Get the free Flash Fast 70 Page eBook:

Try Roby's Flash Fast and Get $10 off Your First Kit:

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Oct 30, 2019

Get in touch with Jennifer Saltzman from Take Your Supplements! Visit
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Sunlighten Sauna:
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Oct 25, 2019

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Dr. Trent's site:



The Weight Is Over


  • It is important to prepare your own food
  • The Weight is Over book
  • Figure out the pain generator
  • Lack of mobility and inflammation
  • Hobbies are important factor in health
  • Benefits of family dinner
  • History of food and stress
  • Cortisol and melatonin rhythm
  • Parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system
  • Weight loss becomes a side effect of better health
  • Intermittent fasting is the healthiest style of eating
  • Eighty percent of our nutrition should be plant based. Twenty percent animal based
  • Vegans have low inflammation
  • Every person needs to find that balance for themselves
  • Vitamins from plants, fruits, and vegetables runs the entire human body
  • Research what food does, what vitamins are, where they come from, and how they integrate and interact inside your body


00:00:00 Intro: Hello, true health seeker. And welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health Podcast. You’re going to love today’s interview with Dr. Trent Mozingo. He’s a wonderful doctor that has a fantastic book. And he teaches so much in this episode. You’re just going to love it.

Well, I can’t contain myself anymore. You know, I was going to keep the secret a little longer but I just can’t contain myself anymore, especially after I recorded this interview today with Dr. Trent. And we discussed some key absolute fundamental things to creating health and reversing disease. Or the major thing, obviously, is the food you put in your body and what you cook. And the fact that you do cook your own food, that you do prepare your own food is so important.

So if you’ve been listening to reason episodes, I’ve hinted at the fact that there’s something really exciting I’ve been working on. There’s been a project I’ve been working on for a while now and I’m about to launch it. I am so, so, so excited to bring it to you. It’s so neat. There’s so many listeners have reached out and asked for this. I’m going to create a membership site that is incredibly affordable. I’m going to teach you whole food plant based cooking so that you can learn how to get more vegetables into you and into your kids and into your husband and into everyone in your family. I’m partnering with a friend of mine who’s a fantastic cook, who is also whole food plant based. And he has three kids that are eating her food. And man, if you can get kids to eat this way and you can make it delicious and fun, then the whole family wants to eat it. So together, the two of us, are teaching in this membership site how to cook whole food plant based diet.

Now, that doesn’t mean you can’t eat meat. That just means you’re going to learn how to eat more vegetables, more legumes, more beans, and all the variety – wonderful variety of vegetables that are healing. We’re going to have a whole section on healing foods and healing recipes. And we’re going to have a whole section for holiday meals. And whole section for if you just feel like cheating but you still want to eat healthy, super, super delicious desserts and snacks that are still incredibly nutritious and healthy. And then there’s the kind of the bar food when you just want to make some fun stuff and going over to a friend’s house or they’re coming over your house and you kind of just want to pass just like how everyone else eats. But you wanted, like, sneakily still eat healthy, but have it be yummy, we’ve got some of those recipes too.

So we’re teaching how to cook, so people who don’t know how to cook – people have been requesting. like people have been telling me, listeners have been telling me, “I would love to do this but I have no idea how to cook. And I’m just afraid I burn water. I’m just afraid of getting in the kitchen.” So were going to hold people’s hands. And then we’re also going to, for those who are great in the kitchen but just need a little help with recipes and ideas and menu plans, to transition into a healthier holistic way of eating that actually helps heal the body. Then this is going to be for you too. So it’s for both kinds of people, the people with no experience in the kitchen and also the people who have lots of experience but need to adjust their lifestyle into a healing diet that’s also delicious and also is realistic.

Because I’m a mom and I work, obviously, so I’m busy. And so is my partner, Naomi, who is the mom of three and so she manages a busy lifestyle and manages to cook all the meals at home. And a whole foods plant based diet that’s holistic and healing for the whole family. And being able to cook for different palates and different food sensitivities is really important. So we teach that. Also, it’s gluten free. It’s an anti inflammatory diet and anti-disease diet. But it’s done in a way that is very simple. So all recipes are quick. All recipes are delicious. And also we teach how to do it in a way that saves money, saves time, makes it delicious.

And we have menu plans. We have grocery lists. We walk you through everything that’s really important. Cookware, the essentials, the things that you need in your kitchen, how to use them. And also food prep, how to cook once every three days. So you’re just cooking – you’re getting into the kitchen once and you’re actually making enough food for several different meals that pair well together and it tastes delicious.

So that is what I’ve been working on. And I’m so, so excited. We’re going to be launching it soon. And there’s going to be a discount for the listeners, obviously, for you guys, right when we launch it. I want to make sure that I gift you guys. But it is more making sure that everyone can afford it because I want everyone to have access to this information in a way that supports all of you. And I’m really, really excited to bring that to you.

This is something that when you shift your diet to healing foods and you feel good after every meal, but not only that, you feel good the next day when you jump out of bed and you go, “Wow. I have more energy today. Like, I don’t feel aches and pains. I feel great.” And then a month later, you’re just like you can’t believe, like, maybe your headaches have gone away or your endurance goes up. Maybe you’re just happier. Things shift when you feed your body and you nourish your cells, everything starts to get better. And that’s what I really want to share with you is this way to do it. In a fun way that is manageable as a busy parent. That is manageable. And and I we teach how to feed everyone from a toddler all the way up to the grandparents. So everyone in between.

And of course, we’ll take requests for recipes. If you guys have a specific style that you want, all the listeners and the members can reach out and definitely request certain foods as well. Because we’re always expanding the types, the styles of recipes that we’re creating. So that’s going to be available soon. And if you want to be the first to know, so you get in – you become one of the founding members of our wonderful new membership . We’re calling it Learn True Health Home Kitchen. And if you want to be part of Learn True Health Home Kitchen, then join the Facebook Group, the Learn True Health Facebook Group. And also join my email list. You can just go to and the pop up comes up within a few seconds, put your email in there. I promise not to spam you. You will get a few emails because that does send out some emails with videos that we made with Naturopaths that teach the foundations of health. And it’s all free. So join the email list and then when we officially launch Learn True Health Home Kitchen, you will be the first to know and you can join it.

I am just so excited to bring this to you. This has been a long time coming. So now is the time. And it’s perfect because Thanksgiving is around the corner, Christmas is around the corner, all these great holidays where wouldn’t you like to feel better the next day. Wouldn’t you like to wake up the day after Thanksgiving or the day after Christmas, the day after New Year’s and feel healthier than the day before? Instead of feeling food coma. And some people kind of dread the holidays because it’s stressful. And we stress eat. And we just don’t eat healthy. But wouldn’t you like to eat really delicious food that actually builds your health and builds you into a better body in 2020. Wouldn’t that be wonderful? Well, that’s what we’re going to do together. Awesome.

Enjoy today’s interview. Thank you so much for being a listener. Thank you so much for sharing these episodes with your friends and family. And helping everyone we love to build healthier bodies.

We have over 37 trillion cells in our body. And everything we eat goes into building healthy cells or sick cells. And I want you to build 37 trillion healthy cells in your body. And we’re going to do that with food, lifestyle, and we’re going to figure out and learn from all these wonderful interviews just like today with Dr. Dr. Trent Mozingo. We’re learning how we can learn true health. Enjoy today’s interview.

Welcome to the Learn True Health Podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is Episode 388.

I am so excited for today’s guest. We have with us Dr. Dr. Trent Mozingo, who by far has the most beautiful last name I’ve ever heard, Mozingo. We will never forget that. Dr. Trent Mozingo has written an amazing book called The Weight Is Over.

And he was just telling me a little bit about it. And I said – I practically wanted to yell, stop, stop. We have to hit record. This is so amazing. I can’t wait for the listeners to hear about it. Dr. Trent, welcome to the show.


00:09:39 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Thank you. Thank you for having me on your show.



00:09:41 Ashley James: Absolutely. I want to jump right into your story first, because I want to know and I want the listeners to know what happened in your life. You know, growing up that led you to want to become a holistic doctor and help people heal in this way.



00:09:59 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Well, that’s a – it’s an interesting question. Because I grew up a farmer in southern Indiana. I had no idea the value of growing up raising our own food, raising our own beef cows, or own eggs, or garden, canning, freezing for the winter. I grew up eating from the soil to the table at my house. And when you’re in that as a child, you don’t have a clue that is really fueling a healthy human body. Certainly, I never got sick much as a kid. I never thought much about it. But as I was growing up, my family and I did everything on the farm. We did all our own mechanics. We did all of our own growing, raising, butchering. We pretty much did everything to keep us alive for the winter.

But as a kid, for some reason, I decided I want to be an anesthesiologist. I was about five. I don’t why. But I want to put people to sleep. And I don’t know where that came from. But my dad would drive around everywhere and he’d make me tell the neighbors what I want to be when I grow up, anesthesiologist. And that carried on until I was about 16. And I was in a major car accident. And they did surgery. I broke my jaw on the front and the sides. Smashed a bunch of teeth. It was a pretty bad accident. And I went into surgery and I met the anesthesiologist. Nice guy. I told him, “That’s what I want to be when I get older.” And he’s kind of run down a little bit what he does. And I was a 16 year old kid, I didn’t know much about it.

But as I was starting to go under, he’s sitting there beside this computer with that beeping noise in a hospital that beep, beep, beep. And he’s reading a book. Ad my surgery was four hours and I thought, “Man, he has to sit there and keep me alive for four hours.” And that sounds terrible. I don’t do that anymore. So I decided right then anesthesiologist is a no for me. But during the recovery of my accident, dental work – I had extensive dental work for a year – my back was stiff and sore. But my cousin was a chiropractor in Greensburg, Indiana. Not far from me. And I went and seen him. And 16 years old, he’s the happiest man I’ve ever met. He loves his job. He’s got a really nice car. I said, “John -” that’s his name – “John, how do I become a chiropractor? And he said, “I went to Purdue. Then I went to Palmer College of Chiropractic.” And I did just that.



00:12:31 Ashley James: Well, tell me a bit about your results. Take me back to that time that you’re in pain and you see your family member who’s a chiropractor. What was your first adjustment like?



00:12:44 Dr. Trent Mozingo: It was amazing. I felt – I mean, one adjustment, I felt a lot better. I was 16. And as a chiropractor now I know the youth they do adapt to an adjustment a little bit better than an older person. Because there’s no muscle tension, less muscle tension. No degeneration. There’s no arthritic changes. So a kid will respond a little bit better to an adjustment than an older person. But I felt amazing. And again, it was a lot of how I felt when I was left. And I didn’t know anything about chiropractic at the point. I just knew he loved his job. And he was excited to go to work every day.

And as a farmer, it’s hard work. And my brothers are both in the construction industry. They were working hard. And I was an employee for both of their businesses. One does heating and air and one does excavation and trucking. So I knew the hard work of going out doing the construction side of life. And I was pretty good at school. So I wanted to go to college. I was the first one on my family to do so. So it was more just I want to find a career that you love. And my cousin loved it. And I felt great when I left so I thought that is perfect for me.

But as I got to school, my thought process has changed a lot. I learned what chiropractic is. And I learned what holistic health care is. It really – I changed my scope of practice of chiropractic while I was still in school. I realized I didn’t want to be just a chiropractor. I want to do something with this inflammation epidemic going on, which is how I got to where I’m at now.



00:14:24 Ashley James: Right. Well, so I think that there’s some common misconceptions about what chiropractic is. Can you take a moment to just explain and set the record straight for us. Some people listening have never seen a chiropractor. They’re afraid that it’s just popping and cracking of joints. And a lot of people do go to chiropractors but they still don’t really, maybe, fully grasp what it is doing when you’re seeing chiropractor and having an adjustment.



00:14:51 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Okay, so I am a science based human. Left handed, live in my right brain. I can’t get out of the analytical life. So chiropractic, there are two styles for the most part. There’s traditional chiropractic that does uses more of like a energy chiropractic adjustments release, increase nerve flow to increase systemic function. And then there’s the science based chiropractic – which I practice, evidence based chiropractic – that I’m more of a pain management doc with my chiropractic care. I do some organic referral pain pattern adjustments. But for the most part, for the majority of patients – I should say – go to the chiropractor for pain. Neck pain, back pain, headaches, that’s the most common reason people go. And that’s the most common reason I see patients.

So what I do is it’s a very systematic physical exam to figure out what is their pain generator? Is it a spinal segments not moving correctly? Aberrant motion? Is it a muscle strain? Is it a ligament or connective tissue injury? Is it a disc injury? So through a series of ortho exams, I can diagnose a patient with, “You have a spinal fixation with lumbar para spinal muscle facilitation.” That sounds technical but really it just means the back is stiff and their segments aren’t moving as they should. So the adjustment is designed to take a spinal segment. We have quite a few of them. There’s seven in your neck and 12 in your mid-back and five om your low back. Find out which one’s not moving properly amongst the others around it. And then you put, what they call, a high velocity, low amplitude adjustment or just the chiropractic adjustment. You put an impulse into that segment and you increase mobility. That is the gold of the chiropractic adjustment, is increasing segmental mobility.



00:16:58 Ashley James: But there’s something that happens when that mobility is dampened. The sort of minute impingements of the nerves leaving the spine can affect our organs and thus can affect how our entire body functions. Can you talk a little bit about that?



00:17:19 Dr. Trent Mozingo: That’s more traditional style of chiropractic. And it does make some sense. But what really happens is inflammation happens. So when you have a lack of mobility, so the segments moving amongst each other is good news. So when you move your joints, it lubricates them. It decreases swelling in them. So when the joints get stuck together, they become relatively minorly – or excuse me – minutely inflamed. And that builds pressure in the synovial joint. So the adjustment, when you actually hear the pop of an adjustment, that’s actually relieving that pressure. So that swelling and inflammation is actually what can affect the nerves leaving the spinal segments.

And also motion blocks pain. It’s another really intricate part of chiropractic care. So think about if you slightly pinch your arm or slightly burn your arm or slightly smash your arm, you rub it. That’s what people do. A natural thing is you just rub what hurts. Everyone’s done that, right? So what you’re doing is you’re actually increasing, what they call, mecanorreceptores. The vibration moves faster to the brain, then nociceptors or pain receptors. So what you’re doing is actually in the brain blocking pain. So the motion that put into an adjustment blocks that pain reception. Does that makes some sense?

So that is part of the power of the adjustment is, one, it blocks pain. Two, it can increase mobility to later down the road decreases the growth of inflammation, the increase of inflammation of the joint. And increased mobility always feels better, which is my favorite part of a chiropractic adjustments. I just feel better.



00:19:13 Ashley James: So my husband had AFib where his heart was beating regularly and it was really scary. And the first time we had it, we weren’t woke yet. We were still in the allopathic system. So we went to the hospital and they put them him beta blockers. The beta blockers didn’t work. I mean, his lips were blue. And it was really bad. They were like, “You know, this is going to create a blood clot if we don’t manage this.” They had to reset his heart like it was scary, scary to see. And then our cardiologist said, “You know, it’s probably holiday heart. You’re under stress.” Well, we hadn’t realized – it hadn’t clicked with us yet. My husband, we just moved. And he had single handedly carried all of our furniture into the 26 foot Penske and driven across the country.

And so he carried a ton of weight on his back. And then drove in a bumpy truck for a few days. And then when we got to where we’re living in Seattle, he unloaded the entire truck on his back. And a few days later, woke up with AFib. It went away after we had the visit to the hospital. A few years later, maybe even just a year later, we had a six year old girl sitting on my husband’s shoulders bouncing as we’re going for a hike with the girl’s mother. And a few hours later, actually, he woke up. It was in the middle night with acute AFib. At this point, we’re seeing a Naturopath. And so the Naturopath was like — this is an old school Naturopath. He said, “Well, AFib, a lot of times if it’s acute like this, it’s actually -nothing is wrong with the heart at all. And it’s an impingement in your thoracic spine. That there’s a nerve that innervates the heart that comes out of the thoracic spine. And you need to go see a chiropractor. You need to do some hot and cold compress, hot and cold showers and compresses on the back to flush the system, flush the inflammation. And go see the chiropractor.” And sure enough, the AFib went away.

And then we had – he had a third episode when we were doing CrossFit. A few years later, we were doing CrossFit and he was lifting the – he never lifted in CrossFit and felt really proud of himself. And then woke up that morning with AFib. And again, we’re like, “Okay. This is a sign.” We went to the chiropractor and we’re like we need to do something about this. So we ended up doing traction for him. Really helped traction and rebuilding his skeleton, you know, getting the nutrients. And we did lots of diet adjustments and got really on board with the holistic health along our journey. But it’s been years, years, years, years and he hasn’t had any AFib because we get regular chiropractic care. And he takes supplements to fill in the gaps with minerals. And he eats a whole food plant based diet.

And it’s just amazing because he would be a candidate for a pacemaker because three acute episodes of AFib is enough to be a candidate for a pacemaker. And so many people go that route not knowing that nothing’s wrong with the heart. But that they should really make sure that they’re decreasing inflammation, having a good diet, and seeing a chiropractor – a good chiropractor. Have you ever seen that in your practice?



00:22:36 Dr. Trent Mozingo: So yeah. And where my practice has taken – so when you think about – I’m a biochemistry guy. That’s where the book came from. That’s where my office is pointed at is, first we address biochemistry, which is food. I fell in love with biochemistry when I was in chiropractic school. And it was my favorite thing to learn, is how the human body uses food.

So more importantly, the way you describe that is the heart is a muscle. It’s what it is. It uses the same nutrients for the most part that your bicep does to move your arm. The nutrients, B vitamin complex, minerals that every muscle uses to contract every single time has to come from our food. As you lift a lot and you carry a bunch of furniture, you have a heavy CrossFit workout, without eating during that time, your body is going to deplete from the water soluble, B-vitamin complex. And you will become deficient. A deficient muscle will work unorganized. That is where I would push into the cause of that AFib is more of a B complex deficiency in the heart muscle, which beats a whole bunch of times. It contracts and relax 70 times a minute.

So an overall deficiency is, I would say, it’s an easier way to reproduce that symptom. So I say that because evidence based medicine requires that. Not every person with AFib gets a mid- back adjustment will see a positive change. So that’s where I lean into. I need to know what is more concrete that if I do this to every patient, I will get the same result. So that’s where I study nutrition. Because every human muscle needs the same nutrition. And if you’re deficient in it, you will have the same symptoms.



00:24:54 Ashley James: Uh-huh. I love it. Well, we have to address it as a whole. We can’t just say – like my husband didn’t only get a thoracic adjustment. It was a lot of a lot of change. But the table that you lie on at home that does traction on the back. He was changing his diet, which was decreasing inflammation. He was going more and more into a healthier diet. And then getting the adjustment through changing the diet and then adding supplements when needed. He was addressing those nutrient deficiencies, which is muscles. And heart being the most important muscle was deficient in. So you’re making sure that you’re looking at the person as a whole and their nutritional needs being the most important need of the body.



00:25:43 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Absolutely. I mean, there’s two things that are – the only things we take in is our food and our emotion, stress. And you have to get those right is the most important.



00:25:56 Ashley James: And stress is really hard because we don’t feel it until we’re about to break. People think stress is an emotion. “I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m doing fine.” And the body is freaking out because they’re constantly in stress mode. What do you do as a chiropractor to help your patients to manage stress?



00:26:17 Dr. Trent Mozingo: So as a chiropractor, the adjustment will help with physical, mechanical stress. Lack of mobility in any spinal segment will create stress which will create inflammation. So that’s one thing. But lifestyle change is really a major part of my system. Is, you have to figure what’s pushing you down and then work on it. And unfortunately for most people, it’s their 9:00 to 5:00 job.  They don’t love it. That’s hard because you can’t quit your job. You have to keep working. We have to keep making money to live. So finding a hobby,

finding something that fuels your body with joy is a very important factor in health. You can eat clean all day long. But if you hate your life, you’re going to suffer from health issues. So you can’t just address one part of it. You have to get your whole mind, body, spirit.



00:27:21 Ashley James: I would add to that. Find a hobby that includes a community. Isolation can really increase stress. So if you have a job that is not bringing you joy and that’s stressful or your job – maybe you love your job but it’s stressful. So you have stress and you can’t change your job. It’s one of those things that we’re like, “No. I’m not changing my job. It does give me a certain amount of stress whether I like it or not. Whether I like my job or don’t like my job, it does give me stress.” So in your free time, it’s like what can you do? And I would say, if you can find a hobby that brings you joy and brings you a new community. Community has been shown to decrease stress and also decrease depression and suicide. And increase a sense of well being. There’s even studies that show it increases longevity.



00:28:09 Dr. Trent Mozingo: I would agree with you 100%. Something as simple as family dinner.



00:28:15 Ashley James: I love that you mentioned that because we’re jumping into – I want to transition into talking about your book. Family dinner, you know we used to eat in front of the TV. So unhealthy and yet so many of us do it. And so we bought – we went on – I think it was Craigslist at the time. But now, it would be Facebook Marketplace or Offer Up. But we went online and we found a beautiful used table. It was just gorgeous. A gorgeous wooden table with a with a leaf so we can we can expand it for company. And we bought these IKEA chairs, used also, which was so great because we spent like so little money and got this beautiful dining room set. And we chose to have family dinner there. And it really made a difference.

The desire to cook a whole foods from scratch, the desire to feed my family. My friend, Naomi, says – and I love it – she’s a great cook. She goes, “I don’t like cooking but I love – ” and it brings me joy – “I love knowing what’s going into my children.” And so for her, the joy comes from – not necessarily comes from cooking itself. You don’t have to love cooking. But you’ll love sitting down at the table and nourishing and nurturing your family and having that beautiful family time and knowing that you’re feeding their 37 trillion cells. Goodness, right? And for me, I love cooking. It’s so much fun. I’m fine if I burn something in the kitchen because it’s just I’m big on just science experiments. I’m like Edison. I just learn a new way of not how to do it. But explore in the kitchen and I love coming up with these great recipes. I love coming up with these delicious meals that are also really healthy that my four year old will eat and my husband will eat.  And that that fills me with joy.

And sitting down at the table and spending that 20 minutes at the table, a-half-an-hour at the table with the family is priceless. There’s no amount of sitting at a TV and eating dinner that it would ever fulfill. And what I noticed – and there’s been studies done – that we actually consume less calories and more densely nutritious food when we cook it and sit at a table and eat it versus sitting at a computer or at the TV when we’re distracted. And we’re not we’re just eating – we’re eating as a habit without even really tasting or being present to it. And so when we’re present to our family and present to our food sitting at a table, we’re nourishing our body, we’re decreasing our stress but we’re also consuming less calories. And we’re listening to the thermostat of our body tell us that we’re actually full when we’re full.



00:30:56 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Sure. I mean, you’re describing is you’re getting back that positive relationship with food. Because our culture has misconstrued the idea that food is about quantity at a cheap price. And the birth of the buffet, if you will –



00:31:27 Ashley James: And the Dollar Menu.



00:31:28 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yeah. We have an idea that food is just there to fill our tank and we keep moving forward. We have lost that bond and intimacy between this food that you’re sticking in your mouth is literally what builds your human body. You are nothing more than accumulation of everything you’ve eaten to this day. How good did you do?



00:31:57 Ashley James: Right. We need to remember that. We really need to remember, everything goes into our mouth is building ourselves. I mean do we really want ourselves built out of McDonald’s or some kind of box cereal? I just look at – oh, I look at all those aisles. I’ve said this on the show before. But my first awakening to healthy eating, my first awakening, I was really sick. I had polycystic ovarian syndrome, type two diabetes, chronic adrenal fatigue. I had chronic monthly infections for which I was on constant antibiotics for. So I was a mess. I could hardly function in life and I was in my 20s – in my 20s. And I was significantly overweight. And I was told by an endocrinologist I would never have kids. I didn’t fertility. And my husband, he was fairly fit because he was a carpenter but he had issues as well. But he was more functioning in the world than I was at the time. And this was back in 2008.

We watched one of the health documentaries on Netflix, like Food, Inc. or Forks Over Knives. And we heard shop the perimeter of the grocery store. And it was just like this new idea to me. Like, “Oh, you mean don’t go down the aisles and eat packaged food.” And I know that sounds so obvious now. But to a 20 year old with, like, six health problems, that wasn’t obvious advice. And so we chose to eat organic and shop the perimeter of the grocery store. And at the end of the month – the first month, I was amazed at how much square footage in the grocery store is completely useless crap.

It was just like, “Wow. We really don’t need to go down any of these aisles.” Maybe the bulk section for brown rice or lentils or something, right? Or maybe the spice section, which could be like a bulk section also for some grocery stores. But other than that, you just don’t – maybe some canned goods once in a while, like canned tomatoes. Single ingredient canned food is fine. But other than that, there’s no going down these aisles.

And in my first month of doing that, my chronic infections went away. And I thought if I can affect my health with one change to my diet, what else can I do? And that began my journey many, many years ago. So shifting that idea of what is really food? And do I really want to build cells out of what I’m eating today? And the meal that’s in front of me, this Dollar Menu or whatever, do I really want to build cells out of this?



00:34:33 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Sure. I always say, the biggest struggle we have as a culture in regard to our health is just the mixed emotion of who’s responsible for it. We have lost that self-responsibility. We don’t take responsibility for our health anymore. We wait until we’re sick and then we expect some doctor to fix it. And the perception that the only way to fix a problem is with a medication is being sold to everyone. And they’re buying. Everyone is buying in. And it’s costing – I think our healthcare costs over 1.3 trillion a year now.



00:35:18 Ashley James: Our nation and other nations like Canada, Australia, they have a little bit of a different medical system, obviously. But their numbers are not great either. But ours, the United States, spends the most out of every nation. Spends the most on healthcare and actually has the worst healthcare from all the industrialized nations. It’s just like the outcomes are horrible. And yet we’re spending the most. So the system is broken. It doesn’t work.

Most of my listeners have awoken to this. They understand this concept. Most of them – because they’re listening. If you’re listening, you’re taking responsibility on some level for your health because you’re willing to educate yourself and you’re excited to. And my listeners are really passionate and excited to learn from experts like you. So we do have a bit of a different demographic for people who are listening, which is great.



00:36:12 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yes. And there’s a lot more resources coming out that are opening so many eyes to this change – this beautiful change in healthcare in general from this reductionist alopathic thing to taking control, learning what food does. And that’s really to be one of those resources. That’s the reason I wrote the book in the first place. I was doing consultations for patients trying to explain this to them. And it would take an hour, two our consultations, and I was going to go broke. But it was my passion. So I had to figure out a way for people to learn what I – for people to gather what I’ve learned. All the pieces of this puzzle I’ve put together. So that’s where I started to write this book. And I was never a writer. I didn’t even like English class growing up. Like I said, I’m left handed. I was great at math. I’m not much of a writer. So to write a 350 page book, it took me some time but it really turned out pretty good. And as a resource, it really helps just nail it down, figure out why, what’s going wrong, and how to fix it.



00:37:21 Ashley James: So tell us about your book. Since you basically have compiled everything that you took. It would take like an hour or two hours to teach individual clients. And you compiled it into a book that you wish everyone knew. Don’t you just want to just download your book into everyone’s brain? Wouldn’t that make such a big difference in this world?



00:37:42 Dr. Trent Mozingo: It would be so easy because getting people to read a book these days is also difficult. YouTube is there. And that’s another avenue I plan to take to do some more audio ideas.



00:37:56 Ashley James: Have you recorded an audio version of your book?



00:37:59 Dr. Trent Mozingo: I’m working on it. I want to do it myself just to make it feel more genuine.



00:38:02 Ashley James: You should. Yeah. Totally do it yourself. You know what I love? I love it when authors go off script. Like, you’re reading your book and then all of a sudden you just get this idea in your head. And you’re like, “You know, I’m just going to tell them some stuff.” And it’s totally cool. I love the doctors that do that. The listener still gets the whole book but you get a little bit added things come to your mind and you just want to add in some stuff. I love audiobooks like that because they feel so genuine. They really feel like you’re just sitting with the doctor. So anyway, that’s my two cents when you finish recording your book.

And let us know when you finish recording your audio book and you release it. Or maybe we’ll have you back on or something to promote it and let us know about it. Because there are some listeners who won’t read books that they’ll definitely listen to them.

Now, your book is called The Weight Is Over. And you started telling me about it. I’m like salivating when you’re telling me about it. I got so excited. Like Pavlovian response to something exciting. You started by painting this picture. What happened to our food history? Like, what happened to food? I was just telling a guest or a listener this morning in the Facebook Group – in our Learn True Health Facebook Group – she said something like, why is it that my grandmother who raised – I don’t know how many – she said raised, like, seven children, for example. She’s like, why is that my grandmother who raised a bunch of children and my mom raised a bunch of children, they didn’t have these resources like the Learn True Health Podcast to help them? But they didn’t have the illnesses that we have and our children have. I keep thinking, how did my grandmother do it with seven or nine kids? But she also didn’t have all the problems we have. What has gone on?

And so I kind of went on a rant about like, well, in the last 30 years, there’s over 30,000 chemicals in our food that our body doesn’t even recognize. Think about everything in our environment that has completely changed.  And we just have so much artificial chemicals in our water and air and food that our body doesn’t even know what to do with. And then, of course now, it’s all hyper palatable, highly processed foods with salt, sugar and oil. And that just leads us down a really destructive path as we can see.

So I’d love for you to teach us something from your book. Tell us about the history of food as it relates to our health. Obviously, because food is our health, as you’ve pointed out. It builds our cells. And what’s happened in the last hundred years or so that has made it so that we are so sick now?



00:40:35 Dr. Trent Mozingo: That is the principle of the book is to help people to learn how the human body works. I grew up on a farm, we talked about that a bit ago. But the education that I got growing up actually played a huge role in my ability to write this book or even understand what I understand as far as the human body. Is because being the youngest of four children, my two older brothers were seven and nine years older than me, they were like my mentors. And my parents gave us a ton of responsibility. We had to fix things. So if it broke down, we didn’t have enough money to pay someone so we had to fix it. So most important education I got growing up is I learned how to figure out how things work. And that is the most valuable factor in trying to fix something. You can’t possibly fix a problem on a tractor or a wood splitter or a weed eater until you know how it works.

So as I got into chiropractic school, I realized that figuring out what is wrong with a patient, figuring out diagnosing a problem, is nothing more than clicking in your brain how the human body works and what would happen if it wasn’t working properly. That would be a symptom. Like a tractor not running would be a pretty serious symptom. You had to figure out what is wrong the engine. If someone’s thyroid gland wasn’t functioning properly, their metabolism was slow. I needed to know how the human body worked in order to be able to give them a possible probable fix.

So as I was researching biochemistry and how the human body worked, all these things started to link together. So that’s really where the book goes to, is teaching you how every human function is linked together. You can’t just break apart one part.

So I started to also learn that nutrition played a major role. And then I could see the writing on the wall that everyone is becoming overweight and diabetic, for the most part. And other conditions like Fibromyalgia is skyrocketing. And hypothyroid function is skyrocketing. And Synthroid is becoming the most prescribed medication in the country. And so I started to link these things together.

And as I started doing research on what happened, that really broke it open for me how food is the reason. And so I started to figure out what diets work better. And I started to write about them, you know, intermittent fasting or Mediterranean or keto diet or Atkins diet, all these different diets and why they don’t work. So that went into my research as well.

So then I started the link back to the history of mankind. As the human body was developed, we only had two stresses back in, we’ll say 180 A.D. Two stresses is all we had. We had to find food and we had to stay alive. Not get eaten as prey. That’s it. Finding a mate was another part of it but it wasn’t really a stress. That was the three functions of life is, finding food, not getting eaten as prey, and finding a mate and reproducing. Those are our three functions.



00:44:01 Ashley James: And we also had community. We lived as a tribe. We’re tribal people. We weren’t nomads. We lived as a community. So we didn’t have the stresses that we do now, like a mother isolated, having no help taking care of a newborn. We had the entire community. The tribe took care of all the children with the parents. And we also leaned on our sisters and our brothers and leaned on our aunts, leaned on the whole community. So that decreases stress a lot when you grow up as a tribe.



00:44:32 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Sure. And there were no lights. There were no televisions. There was no freezer. So food was very fresh, which was a great thing. Meat was very fresh because it was killed and eaten within a week. And when night fell, you fell asleep. When it was dark, you went to sleep. When the light came back, when the sun comes out, you woke up. And as I was studying that factor, then you can go into the cortisol and melatonin rhythm, if you want to. Where cortisol peaks in the morning. That gets you up and gets you ready for the day. And melatonin drops off. And then as the day goes on and you exercise, cortisol drops and melatonin spikes and makes you fall asleep and it happens daily. But that’s with a normal rhythm. That’s following daylight and dark.

Since then, we have TV shows on until 1:00 in the morning. Or night clubs open until 2:00 in the morning. And it’s just a totally different world. But more importantly, the food was very fresh. And we didn’t have a job. We just had to find food or do the community whatever your task was. It wasn’t like a job where you make money.

But around the 1800s, the industrial revolution happened. And farmers stopped – through the 1800s, one farmer would raise the tomatoes, one farmer would raise the pigs, one farmer would raise eggs, and you would share. That was another community thing. A very positive thing. You had a little general store, you trade, you had barter. That was life then.

But during the industrial revolution, everything changed. Because instead of that bartering system, instead of waking up every day with only a job to either help the community or feed the community, you had to go to work. Factory life became a thing. Services became a commodity. You had to make money then, to buy food.

And that really changed our perception of what food is. We went from a life centered around creating your food to nourish your body and your family and your community to a life of you go to work to buy food to feed your family.

And during that time people stopped really, like said, lose that intimacy with food. Where when you go to work – most people when they go to work, they don’t love their job. They can only wait to lunch. But it’s not because they get to nourish their human body with food. It’s because lunch means leaving work for 30 minutes or an hour. That is a very unhealthy relationship with food.

They’re not thinking that, “Okay. In one hour, I get to go and fill my body with B complex vitamins from a green leafy salad.” They think, “I want something quick so I can sit in my car and be out of work for 30 minutes.”



00:47:40 Ashley James: Or they’re looking to satisfy joy. That’s what I did for many years. I was really leaning on food for emotional support. So going to In and Out or going to Jack-in-the-Box or KFC or going out for sushi or Chinese food or pizza, you know, just all those fun foods was about fun and joy. Because that would help me decrease stress because it’s like a drug. You get to have an escape. It’s like I just was shooting up heroin going through the drive thru. It was like shooting up my own little drug. Because that would be that little break. That little 30 minute break was fun. Finding the pleasure in food. And that decreases stress temporarily. But then you’re right back at work and now your body’s inflamed from that horrible food. So now it increases more stress and it’s this vicious cycle.



00:48:42 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Sure. And then really, where we went as a country went wrong was in 1977. So during the 1900s, the industrial revolution, again, food started becoming processed. The people that were trying to keep it from being processed were being hushed by the powers that be, that being the people that are making money from food.

So the FDA was developed around 1900 or 1912, I think it was. There was a guy named Wiley – Dr. Wiley. He’s actually from Indiana. Not far from where I’m from. Interesting. But he started to discover how when you start bleaching wheat, you increase health problems. So he was against wheat being processed. It’s supposed to be aged. And the powers that be hushed him. And then he got kicked out of the FDA and the new owners took over.

But more importantly, in 77, a guy named George McGovern had a committee to try and stop processed foods. His committee was developed in the 60s. There was a CBS airing, I think it was, it was called Hunger in America, where Northern Alabama, Northern Mississippi into West Virginia, that little area there, was starving. They were underfed. There was no industry there. As the industrial revolution came about there wasn’t any food there because the local stopped growing food. And there wasn’t a lot of money to buy food so people were actually starving. Well, the government stepped in and they started a committee with Senator McGovern and he created the WIC program. The food stamp program to help those families at the areas. And it worked. They’re no longer hungry. Food stamps was a beautiful thing. It helped the people that couldn’t make money anymore – or couldn’t make enough money – I’m sorry – to feed the family as it should. Ironically, those areas are now overweight – the most overweight area in America.



00:51:00  Ashley James: Right. Because food stamps were – you couldn’t even buy potatoes with food stamps. You couldn’t buy healthy wholesome foods. You couldn’t buy fresh vegetables. And it was just – it’s like packaged. They wanted you to buy the Kellogg’s and the the Kraft.



00:51:24 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Our government subsidized food but they only subsidize the processed food that was making the food industry lots of money. They didn’t become overweight until many years later. So this a total afterthought. There’s no way to project that because at this point, in the 60s and 70s, they still thought that this food was perfectly safe and healthy. We were still being taught that this food is safe and healthy. But in 77 people started becoming overweight. During the 60s and 70s, the rest of the country we’re becoming unhealthy. Cancer levels are going up. Diabetes levels were going up. Heart disease was a big one that was going up. So Senator McGovern, also at that point, started to say that the government should step in and educate properly on healthy nutrition.

Unfortunately for us, he listened to Ancel Keys. If you know who that is. He did a seven country study, it’s called – where he cherry picked seven countries that showed that fat was the devil. And Senator McGovern listened to him. There was another guy doing research, named Yudkin, who was saying sugar is the devil. And Ancel Keys had a louder voice. So he hushed the Yudkin guy.


00:52:48 Ashley James: It’s so amazing when we look at history and it’s just one person. People sometimes feel powerless. Who am I? There’s billions of people and who am I to make a difference to this world. This, this story is an example of how one person can influence millions of people’s lives for generations. If you listen to Yudkin, how much different would the world be if we had reduced our sugar intake in the in the 70s and 80s and 90s, all the way to the day. If we had reduced our sugar intake versus making foods artificially low fat which then you put more sugar in, right?  Oh my gosh, that is just amazing. One person.



00:53:38 Dr. Trent Mozingo: And mainstream government talk was about how cholesterol was raised because of animal fat instead of sugar. But even worse for us as a country. Senator McGovern had the right idea. He made the McGovern Report and it was designed around just cutting calories. We’re eating too much. We need to eat healthier and more whole foods. More fruits and vegetables. And they’re shut him down. The powers that be, the medical in the food industry, shut it down because that, in 1977, they got shut down. And then his committee got shut down. And in the 80s, 1981 or two, that’s when we got the food pyramid. That is where the special interest of the food and pharmaceutical industry took precedence over American health in 1977. And if you look at any chart, you can look at any of them, diabetes prevalence, ADHD prevalence, inflammation in general prevalence, heart disease prevalence, all of them. If you look at them on the chart, they are steady until about 50. And they climb a little bit. In 60, they climb a little bit. In 70, they climbed. In 80, it skyrockets.



00:54:53 Ashley James: When the little climbs are the transitioning from the single income family where the mother stays home and cooks meals from whole foods. And that in America and other industrialized nations where we could afford to have, most of the time – obviously, there’s exceptions to the norm – but most of the time, the husband went to work, the mother stayed home and cooked. Or if the mother had a job as well, there was an agreement that the family ate at home. Eating at restaurants was a rare treat. And that there was no such thing as like, delivery pizza. I mean, really think about the 50s. we’re eating, we’re getting together and sitting down as a family and we’re eating our meals. In that these meals, we know what all the ingredients are.



00:55:43 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Absolutely. And since then, it’s gotten – I mean, it just gotten worse.



00:55:49 Ashley James: Right. The invention of the microwave dinner, the frozen dinner, right? Was that in the 60s that that came into play? The family would then just get these little frozen dinners and put them in the oven.



00:56:00 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Sure. TV dinners.



00:56:02 Ashley James: TV dinner.



00:56:03 Dr. Trent Mozingo: And they showed the commercials eating in front of the TV on your TV tray. That became normal. And it made sense for people. It was easy, quick, fast. You can get back to work and make more money. Where you buy an expensive car and house but don’t buy expensive food, that is our culture. And it is creating this epidemic.



00:56:27 Ashley James: It just slowly — if we caught it in the 60s or 70s, if we’d caught it, instead of going fat is bad for the last 40 years. If we had gone highly processed sugar and probably processed food is bad and stick with how we ate in the 40s and before that, we would definitely have significantly less disease. Do you think – I mean, this is a conspiracy theory. But do you think that the pharmaceutical companies influenced – really helped try to influence the Food and Drug Administration and try to influence the government to create the food triangle, the food pyramid, in order to create disease? Do you think that it was really conscious? Like, “Look, if we do this we’re going to create more disease and sell more drugs. So we really need to push this agenda.”



00:57:29 Dr. Trent Mozingo: I would say they had an agenda to make money. That’s the best way I can explain that. I can’t say that they wanted to make people sick. But they wanted to sell medicine. I think they genuinely thought their medicine helped. Again, the pharmaceutical industry never sees the whole big picture. They see a problem. They try to fix it with a synthetic idea. They try to synthesize health. They genuinely think they’re doing it right. It’s just that they’re wrong.

So they’re trying to fix an issue without cutting off the source of the problem, I guess is the best way for me to explain that. because the source of the problem continues to make them money. And the source of the problem continues to make the food industry money. So what they’re doing is basically in this big cycle of I make money. You make money. I make money. You make money. I make money. You make money. People are staying alive. The longevity –



00:58:35 Ashley James: Long enough for them to make money. They’re staying alive long enough to make money. But our longevity is going down that –



00:58:47 Dr. Trent Mozingo: We have started [inaudible 00:58:48].



00:58:48 Ashley James: Right. We started to go where our children will not – like they’re saying, on average, our children will die before we die. If we live to our 70s, our children are going to live to be 60, basically. It’s going downhill. They’re seeing a decline in our longevity. So we’re really, really going the wrong direction. But we’re seeing that one in three people will have a diagnosis of cancer in their lifetime. That 70% of people have a weight problem. One in three people have pre-diabetes or a diabetic. There’s a major chronic epidemic of – over 70% of adult Americans are on at least one prescription medication. And that it’s being taught that that is normal.

I rarely see MDs. I go to a Naturopath. But I went to an MD yesterday for a checkup – a female checkup, which I’m happy to go to because I really like her. But I don’t buy into any of the – you know, like she said, “I’m going to be 40 soon so I should get a mammogram.” And I almost laughed so hard. I’m like, “Yeah. That’s not going to happen.” And then they offered me the flu shot. They offered me the flu shot and then took my blood pressure, which was really laughable. Because I became so irate them offering me the flu shot and then they took my blood pressure. So my blood pressure was through the roof, which was really funny. Because a week ago when I had it at my Naturopath’s office, it was like 110 over 70. But in the MD’s office, it was like 137 over 93. And I’m like, “Yeah. Because you just offered me a flu shot.” Really, they do that in that order. Offer them a flu shot then quickly take their blood pressure while they’re still upset and then get them on blood pressure medication.



01:00:28 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Oh, yeah. You can take this, It won’t hurt you. That’s what they’ll tell you.



01:00:31 Ashley James: Right. Exactly. Yeah. So they were shocked because the nurse was asking me some details before the doctor comes in the office. “And what medications are you on?” Because I had written zero on the form and she didn’t believe that I was on zero medications. I think she asked me three different ways. I’m like, “I’m 39 years old. I’m not on any medications.” And she couldn’t understand it. Like, it didn’t make sense to her. Because every single person that goes in the office is on at least one medication. Because it’s rare, it is rare to be healthy enough to not need a medication. And that is the state of our health right now. So you help people heal their bodies with diet. You help them bring their bodies back into balance and get off of medications healthfully because their body has come back into balance. And what we’re being taught in the mainstream by our by our MDs – and they’re lovely people by the way. Like, this MD I went to yesterday, I love her. She’s a great OB-GYN. And I really, really love her for that specialty. But I would never take food advice, for example.

You just have to know. You don’t go to your mechanic and get carpentry advice, right? You don’t go to your carpenter and get electrical advice, unless that’s their specialty, unless they actually know what they’re talking about. You go to the right professional for the right information. And she is wonderful in what she does in her specialty. But our MDs are taught that food plays a very minor role in our health. And we really need to manage our health with drugs. Because that’s their education. So we have to know to go to the right doctor for the right information. And when we go to a chiropractor, we’re actually getting more science based nutritional information from our chiropractor than we ever would from an MD. Because don’t you have at least an entire year of nutritional training in school, whereas MDs have something like eight hours.


01:02:34 Dr. Trent Mozingo: There’s always some – okay. So nutritional training, that’s hard to explain. Because you can’t just train someone on nutrition. You have to train them on what nutrition breaks down into. So what foods break down into is what’s actually important. Whether it’s minerals or amino acids or proteins or whatever.

So in chiropractic education, this is the most important factor here. MDs are doing everything that they’re taught. They’re not doing anything wrong. They’re doing what they’re trained to do. They’re trained in a reduction style thought process. What they’re trained to do is come up with a symptom, figure out a test to pinpoint exactly what is wrong and only address that. They keep blindfolds on how the integration and interconnection of the human body works, which is why we have specialists. We have a kidney doctor, a heart doctor, and oncologist doctor, an OB-GYN. They’re trained for one specific thing. And that doesn’t work.

Because for example, blood pressure, it goes up. So we send people to cardiology. Makes sense, right? Why wouldn’t you send them to a Nephrologist for their kidney? Because a kidney plays more role in blood pressure than your heart does. Your heart is just pumping the stuff. The kidney is actually what retain water and keep your volume. Those things always blow my mind. Which is why when you go to an orthopedic doc when you have swollen lower leg, they never really address the kidney function. They’ll send you to a heart doctor. In reality, it’s usually the kidneys are not releasing the right amount of water. You’re retaining it. Your blood is pooling. And then secondary, you can do a cardio.

So in that thought process, they are missing all of these big pictures. Which is why when you go to one doc, you get a med for blood pressure, which jacks up your kidneys. Then you go the next doc and get a medication to help your kidneys function. And all the while these medications are being processed by the liver and messing it up too.



01:05:02 Ashley James: Does high blood pressure medication harm the kidneys?



01:05:06 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Well, it changes the way they function. A water pill, for example, it opens the kidneys up. It makes you pee more. So what they’re doing is they’re synthesizing another function. They’re basically altering another function to help the one function that they’re trying to treat, which just creates another dysfunction. Then they medicate for that which creates another dysfunction, which is grassroots marketing. They’re going to get you on three meds, not one.



01:05:35 Ashley James: They’re forcing – forcing the body to do something. And it’s the hubris of the pharmaceutical industry and the pharmaceutical trained doctor to believe that we are smarter than the body. Right? Because I’m going to take a drug and force the body to do something, which then has all these other disastrous effects because we’re not getting to the root cause. And we’re really just still treating symptoms.



01:06:07 Dr. Trent Mozingo: They’re trying to supersede the majesty of nature. The body created itself from two cells. And they’re trying to think that their medication is necessary. I don’t understand that thought process. Your 37 trillion cells from two. And you think your body is deficient on blood pressure medication? I can’t perceive that.



01:06:33  Ashley James: So when you have a patient come in with high blood pressure, what do you do?



01:06:38 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Talk to him about what’s going wrong. So that’s the beauty of the second section of the book. I go through in detail how everything is connected and how everyone is at the same – they’re on the same slippery slope. And that goes through the functions. So I teach you how food works inside your body. What happens when you don’t eat the right food inside the body? And I’ll also explain to you how the medical system is doing it backwards? That section too. And if you want, I can explain to you how we are at the level we are in a very systematic way.



01:07:15 Ashley James: Please.



01:07:18 Dr. Trent Mozingo: So again, I studied how the human body works. I can’t fix it until I know how it works. So I realized that it’s all a very fluid motion. When you eat, it goes in your digestive system. Makes sense. Well, your digestive system is made to break down proteins, fats, and carbohydrates. That is all. Your mouth breaks down carbohydrates and fats. There’s enzymes released in the mouth to break down carbohydrates and fats. And it breaks down fats. Because if you ever pick up a steak, you get slime on your hands. Right? And you can’t get that slime off.



01:07:55 Ashley James: You mean raw? Are you talking about raw? If you touch raw chicken or –



01:08:00 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yes. If you pick up a fish, it’s slimy. And you can’t get that slime off your hands until you do soap. Well, you didn’t have lipase in your mouth, your mouth will stay slimy. That’s what’s it there for, to clean your mouth. That’s an interesting thought.

So you have lipase and amylase. I think that’s the one in the mouth. That breaks down carbohydrates and fats. Now, amylase is in there or the carbohydrate breaking down enzymes, I think it’s amylase in the mouth. It’s there for a reason. So it’s monitoring how much sugar is coming in. It’s a monitoring system. If you have a food that is only carbohydrates, which is a fruit or vegetable or grain, they won’t have much fat so the lipase won’t be usable. So the body knows carbohydrates are coming. So the mouth is now signaling the pancreas. “Look, pancreas. We have sugar coming.” Sugar is coming, you need to get ready with some with some insulin. Get ready. Get it. Chew it. Swallow it. It goes to the stomach. Pancreas kicks in.

If you eat something and it’s a fish or meat, it’s going to be fatty. It’s not going to have any carbohydrate in it so it won’t register that for the pancreas. But it’s going to tell the pancreas we got fat and protein coming. “All right. Pancreas, you gotta get ready because that releases protein digestive enzymes. Also liver and gallbladder, you gotta get ready because you’re going to release bile to break down the fat.”



01:09:29 Ashley James: I love that you’re painting this picture. Because we don’t chew our food enough. We really don’t. Especially if we’re eating in our car, like you said, that quick lunch break or we’re sitting in front of the TV, we just don’t chew our food. It’s so funny. I’ve seen this on so many Facebook Groups that I’m in for health stuff where people go, “In the toilet, I saw -” you know, whatever they ate, they’re like “- does that mean I’m not digesting?” And everyone is saying, “You’re not chewing your food.” We think that we’re basically swallowing food whole and that our gut is supposed to digest it. But the major part of our digestion starts with chewing.

And so how many chews do we do? Like, I’ve heard 20. I’ve heard someone say 50. How much should we chew the food until it’s properly digested? Like, the process of digestion starts in the mouth.



01:10:22 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Sure. The mouth is setting your digestive system up for what is coming. It’s getting your body ready. So chewing is a time. It’s a monitoring system. There’s no one size fits all amount of chews per food because some things are chewier than others. Some of them are pretty soft and you can kind of squish them with your tongue on the top of your mouth. I do that a lot with fruit, because my teeth are really sensitive.

So after you chew and you swallow, the body has already figured it out. “Okay. I got proteins, I got fats, and I got carbs coming.” That’s what the mouth tells it. So it drops into the stomach. Or or the stomach is a very, very, very, very, very, acidic place. Hydrochloric acid and pepsin are released from the stomach lining to continue to break down the proteins. They’re very hard to break down. It needs to be super acidic in the stomach to break down food. Now, it’s made to break down proteins, fats, and carbohydrates. When you put chemicals in your stomach, your stomach can’t break it down. It doesn’t know how. It’s like putting vegetable oil in a gasoline car. It’s not going to turn out very good for you. It doesn’t know how to burn it. It doesn’t know how to metabolize. It doesn’t know how to break it down. So that’s when we get acid reflux. The stomach acid is ineffective. So your stomach acid falls. The levels fall. Your stomach becomes basic. Not too acidic. It becomes too basic. Now, there’s only two directions for food to go, down the small intestine or back up.

Well if it’s not digested, the small intestine doesn’t want it. It can’t break it down. And this is bad news across the board. So acid reflux. You want to regurgitate back out. That’s what the body is trying to do. Get this junk food that you just stuck it out. The medical world says, “Let’s just shut that function down. Let’s use antacids.” This is a terrible idea.



01:12:19 Ashley James: Because the problem in the first place was not enough acid, not enough digestion in the stomach, and not enough digestion in the mouth. I was just thinking as you’re talking about chewing, it’s like people who have weak digestive tracts, who have constant problems with bloating or gas or diarrhea or constipation or problems with GERD, with acid reflux, that if they spent more time chewing – my mom would light candles turn on classical music, and turn off all the lights in the kitchen where our kitchen table was. And she would have a bunch of candles lit on the table and she would set an atmosphere. Which is so funny because I was a kid and my dad doesn’t care at all. But my mom was, she found that it would help her digestion if she set the ambience to just take a breath, calm down, and set the atmosphere for digestion.



01:13:16 Dr. Trent Mozingo: That’s a fun fact. Because you’re describing the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system. You can’t digest in the sympathetic nervous system.



01:13:25 Ashley James: The fight or flight response.



01:13:26 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yeah. The fight or flight response will shut off your internal organs to put more blood flow and energy to your muscles so you can run or fight. So she’s calming herself down to get into that parasympathetic rest and digest system. And that does make a lot of sense.



01:13:42 Ashley James: And it also helps us chew because now we’re calmer. And now we’re not trying to race through the meal. So we’re willing to sit there and chew and then swallow and enjoy the company we have and enjoy the food. But also your taking the extra time to tell the pancreas and tell the stomach and tell the liver and gallbladder to get ready to digest and assimilate the food.



01:14:12 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Sure. So as it keeps moving down the digestive system, the stomach’s got to work. It’s the most important thing for digestion is to liquefy your food. It needs to be liquefied for the most part before it hits your small intestine or else we’re going downhill fast. So antacids are, in my opinion, the worst thing you can stick in your mouth. You shut off the stomach acid, you are going to have problems. Fun fact, I have never had a fibromyalgia patients come in my office that doesn’t have a history of antacid use.



01:14:47 Ashley James: Yeah. That makes sense.



01:14:49 Dr. Trent Mozingo: And that’s actually what really got me thinking about this inner connection is fibromyalgia. And I’ll explain that in a second. So as the time goes on and the body is starving, right? This is one of the main problems of our overweight epidemic. We are starving for food because, actually, we’re starving for nutrients. Because there’s none in our food. So the body is just constantly saying, “I need vitamins and minerals. You’re giving me zero vitamins and minerals.” Your muscles need them every day, every second, every cell, trillions of them need them all the time. And we’re giving them zero. I have patients that come in and have zero, zero whole foods in their diet every day and drink nothing but soda, no water. And I explained to them, “Have you ever fed your plant Coca-Cola?” And they said no. I said if you do it, it will die. And they don’t like that conversation.

So water is very essential. But you can’t drink a lot of water when you’re eating either because that will also increase the base level in your stomach. Decrease the acidity. Because water is pretty much even base – a neutral base. So anyway, as we get hungry and the body just starts to do whatever it can to let this junk food go through the digestive tract. We don’t have an enzyme in our pancreas to digest chemicals. We can’t. It just doesn’t work. So all things considered in the small intestine is where your nutrients are absorbed into the body. Not the large intestine. The small intestine. The large intestine – Dr. McBride talk to you about it. I heard your podcast. – that’s the most important as far as that GAPS diet. The large intestine is more of your immunity, more of your brain connection. But small intestine is actually the workhorse. It’s the one that brings your food into your body.

And it comes in through the portal vein. The mesenteric veins around every bit of the intestines and they filter straight through to the liver. So as we eat this junk food, our digestive system crashes. We have digestive distress from constipation to diarrhea to gallbladder dysfunction to pancreatic inflammation, pancreatitis, if you will, all these things are major problems in the digestive system. But unfortunately, the bad stuff gets through. And the liver becomes toxic. This is the main problem for most folks. Because liver becomes inflamed and your midsection grows. Fat around the liver.

Fatty liver disease is bad. And it’s an epidemic. But more importantly, drug induced liver injury is more prevalent than alcohol now.



01:17:46 Ashley James: Well, like Stanton’s are so, so, so common. Cholesterol lowering drugs. But no one takes the time to learn how they function. And when people learn how they function, they’re really motivated to not get – not beyond that and to get off them and to change their diet and lifestyle to create healthy cholesterol. Because we don’t just want to lower cholesterol. That’s such a misnomer. In fact, triglycerides are the marker, really, that we need to look at. But to have healthy levels of cholesterol, we need a really clean healthy diet and good – moving our bodies in a way that brings us joy every day. And that really helps bring cholesterol back into balance. And obviously, avoiding processed foods that raise the blood sugar like flour and sugar itself.

But what people don’t know is that these cholesterol lowering drugs how they function

because people think magically – just magically, they lower cholesterol. But what they’re doing is they damage the liver on purpose. They’re like punching your liver and they damage your liver on purpose to the point where you’re liver ceases to function correctly, because our liver makes 30% of our cholesterol. If someone eats a diet with animals in it, 30% of your cholesterol on average is made by your liver. If you eat no animals at all and you’re eating no cholesterol, your liver produces all of your cholesterol. If you’re like a raw vegan or something and you’re getting absolutely no fat whatsoever, I mean you’re just getting such a small amount of fat from fruit basically, those people have healthy cholesterol levels. But they’re not eating any because their liver produces cholesterol. And so the majority of our older population is automatically put on Stanton’s.

There’s a few people on our Facebook Group have said – in the Learn True Health Facebook Group have said that when they went into the hospital, they were automatically given cholesterol. The people that get admitted to hospitals are automatically given cholesterol  lowering medications, given Stanton’s. And what the Stanton’s do is they bruise and harm the liver to the point where the liver ceases to function and ceases to make cholesterol. But that does nothing to stop you from eating cholesterol, which isn’t necessarily bad. And that’s a whole myth busting. We could have you back on for an entire episode around that. And it doesn’t necessarily affect the damage done by the – so triglycerides being you’re seeing damage being done. It’s like seeing the smoke, right? They’re altering the smoke. They’re not they’re not putting out the fire. And in fact, they’re making a whole new fire in the body. So there’s a lot of myth around cholesterol. But you’re saying that the pharmaceuticals people are on are damaging the liver, are clogging it up, and are causing fatty liver syndrome more so than alcoholism causes fatty liver.



01:21:00  Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yes. Yes.



01:21:00 Ashley James: My mom died of liver failure. She died of liver cancer.



01:21:06 Dr. Trent Mozingo: I’m sorry.



01:21:06 Ashley James: So I personally have seen how quickly someone can go south when their liver is compromised, you die quickly. It is a painful and quick death within a matter of weeks the more and more it gets compromised. If our liver is compromised, we are guaranteeing that we’re having a shorter lifespan that is going to be filled with more problems down the road. So we want to protect our liver and not damage it permanently from years of pharmaceutical use.

And when I say pharmaceutical use, there’s always that caveat of pharmaceuticals that save people’s lives and that’s been phenomenal. We’re obviously not – there’s no dogmatic thinking here. If there’s a drug to save your life, I want you to be alive. But if there’s an unnecessary drug that people are just being put on because that’s just what doctors do. All the doctors are putting everyone on sentence because that’s just like the new thing that they’re all doing. And it doesn’t actually help you.

And I’ve had four cardiologists on the show, all of them reverse heart disease with diet. All of them. And they all say, all four of them have said that Stanton’s do not prevent heart disease. The only thing they’ve seen in studies is that Stanton’s, after your first heart attack, if you then get on Stanton’s, can marginally prevent the second heart attack.



01:22:40 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yeah. I read that study. You know what I think? It actually works to marginally prevent the second heart attack is having a heart attack.



01:22:51 Ashley James: Right. Because it wakes them up and go, “Oh. I lived. I should really start shaking myself.”



01:22:54 Dr. Trent Mozingo: “Hey, I probably should do something here.”



01:23:00 Ashley James: That’s so funny. And then they’re taking that data and going, “It was the Stanton’s that’s helping.” That’s so funny.



01:23:07 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yeah. So the liver, again, you’re right. It’s so vitally important. It’s actually the only organ that can regenerate. If you [inaudible 01:23:20], it will grow back. It’s amazing how the liver works. So as I talked about in this book and further down this rabbit hole, digestion is number one. When it goes down, you’re going slippery slope. And it’s a very slippery slope. Because the liver becomes toxic. Because your digestive system starts letting junk through. So your liver becomes jacked up on high fructose corn syrup. And it’s in everything.

Which is why everyone has liver dysfunction and digestive dysfunction and low thyroid function. Everyone that’s overweight, this is where they’re at. Their doctor can run tests all day long and say, “Nope. Your TSH levels are fine.” Which is a total joke of a test as far as thyroid function goes. But if your body temperature is under 98.6, it’s not good news. Your metabolism is slow and it’s because of liver dysfunction and thyroid dysfunction. And I say that because the thyroid actually functions in the liver. They’re connected. This is a connection, I don’t help people to understand.


You go into a doctor’s office and they prescribed you Synthroid and they don’t ever address your liver enzymes. They’re doing you a disservice, because the thyroid gland releases two hormones, T4 and T3. T4 has a longer shelf life than T3. It will last longer in your body. T3 is the usable form of thyroid hormone. T4 is not. The thyroid makes T4. The T4 goes to the liver to be converted into T3. And that is part of cholesterol metabolism to make your human body up the

temperature, your thyroid function. So when your liver is fatigued, your cholesterol metabolism is wrecked, and not helped by Stanton’s drugs, your thyroid function decreases. So your metabolism decreases and weight gain becomes inevitable. You can’t help it.


And this is where I start to pound the idea is like, standalone weight loss is never going to work. You have to address functionality in your human body. That will make you lose weight as a side effect, for the most part.



01:26:35 Ashley James: I love it. I love it weight loss becomes a side effect of better health.



01:26:39 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yes. Better liver function, better thyroid function. Because your liver has to help the thyroid regulates body temperature. So any person listening, if you check your body temp and it’s way under 98, you got some work to do. That’s  a good place to start. That’s a good starting point to say, “All right. It’s time for me to make some changes.” Because you need your body temp to – you need your body temperature to be where it’s supposed to be to burn calories at rest, which is the most abundant form of calorie usage of the day. Your exercise only counts for like 10 to 20% of your calorie usage. So you need to use it through normal metabolic function.



01:27:24 Ashley James: That sounds similar to Dr. Wilson. I had him on the show. He figures out if someone’s having thyroid problems by having them take their temperature consistently throughout the day for a few days. And if they’re under the norm, then – their thyroid problem might not even show up on blood work because he talks about how it might be the receptors. That the thyroid is working but that their thyroid receptors are off and so he’s looking at temperature to see what’s going on. And if our the temperature is low, then that’s a sign that something – somewhere in the undercurrent system, whether it be the receptors or up in the thyroid or up in the pituitary – hypothalamus pituitary access somewhere along the way, there’s something going on.

But you’re saying, we need to look at what’s coming in our body three times a day, which is the food we’re eating. And we need to look at the liver because the liver is compromised drastically because of our diet. And most people are on some form of medication or have been on medications that if the liver is compromised then we’re not digesting, we’re not detoxifying, we’re not metabolizing. It’s just everything gets clogged up in the body. And if we can’t get rid of the toxins, it gets stored in the fat cells.



01:28:49 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Sure. And then we got more problems for the thyroid gland. And which another reason – I mean, more reasons that’s becoming such mainstream epidemic of low thyroid function is toxicity, as you just mentioned, is huge. So the thyroid gland, it makes two hormones, like I said. Those hormones are consisting of two amino acids, iodine and tyrosine. These two things come from your food. They have to come from your food. Iodized table salt is what the medical system designed back in the 60s to prevent goiter. I wouldn’t [inaudible 01:29:27] but there was goiters everywhere and they put iodine in a table salt and the goiters went away. That’s important. That’s how important iodine is. If you’re iodine deficient, your thyroid will become distressed. We don’t eat enough fish or seafood, where iodine is naturally coming from. Tyrosine comes from green leafy vegetables and animal meats. We don’t eat enough of those and our digestive systems aren’t able to break them down when we do anymore. So you’re deficient in tyrosine as well.

You can’t make a thyroid hormone without the building blocks. So there’s a major problem we have. More importantly, iodine is halogens. There’s other halogens on the periodic table. If you’re familiar, there’s fluorine, there’s iodine, there’s bromine, and there’s chlorine. Well, chlorine is in our drinking water. That’s bad. Because iodine and the other halogens will block the uptake of iodine. They’re like all brothers and sisters fighting. So if you’re toxic in chlorine, you won’t be able to uptake as much iodine as you would like to. So chlorinated water is bad to drink. Also bleached wheat flour, white bread is bleached. That’s also toxic for your thyroid gland.

Fluorine, which is found in Teflon, which is why it’s bad to eat scratched Teflon, or things cooked in a scratched Teflon pan.



01:30:55 Ashley James: Let’s just agree that any nonstick Teflon surface is bad for us no matter what. Because you can’t guarantee that you’re not going to scratch it. And the off gas – when you would have heat them it off gases and that’s dangerous.



01:31:09 Dr. Trent Mozingo: There’s a great documentary called, The Devil We All Know. It was on Netflix. And it goes into – I think it’s 3M is the company that was creating nonstick stuff. And they were pumping the waste into the rivers. And it’s unbelievable how many people are affected. It went all the way – they put so much in the rivers it back fed up river into the Ohio and all the way down the Ohio River Valley. And as I watched this, I thought, “Well, fluorine flooring is terrible for your thyroid gland.” Everyone in the Ohio River Valley – I think, lymphoma is another major problem from fluorine.

There’s like lawsuits up and down the Ohio River Valley of people dying from liver disease, liver – no. I’m sorry – thyroid disease, thyroid cancer, and lymphoma from this fluorine being pumped in. It’s a great documentary I suggest everyone watch that.

And then we also have bromine which is in flame retardants which is also on stain resistant stuff.



01:32:11 Ashley James: So you’re getting – yeah. You’re getting the children’s clothing that’s stain resistant. And their winter clothing is covered in it.



01:32:19 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Toxic for the thyroid gland.



01:32:19 Ashley James: Oh my gosh. And then their mattresses are covered in – flame retardant mattresses. Your carpeting has it. Your coat has it. That’s why when they do testing, they find that the air quality in your home or in your office is ten times more toxic than if you live downtown. Imagine the pollution of living downtown in whatever major city. That pollution is actually fresher air and better for you. Someone living homeless is breathing better air than you are in your home. Because we’re breathing in the flame retardants and all the off gassing.



01:32:58 Dr. Trent Mozingo: It’s on automotive seats. So every road trip, you pound that stuff in your body. And worse off, it’s vital for infants in neural development. Thyroid function is. So we’re putting flame retardant clothes or stain retardant clothes and these kids and its destructive to their thyroid gland, which is an important factor in neural development. It’s huge. Everything is so related to our health. And we are just waiting to go to the doctor and figure out what med we can take. You know, it’s crazy.



01:33:31 Ashley James: I love that you’re pointing out these different things and not only are in our food but in our air that bind to the receptors. So they’re invasive. They’re something invasive that is clogging up the receptors in our cells. So the cells cannot receive the T3 –  the healthy thyroid hormone that it needs to receive. And thyroid affects all the cells. It’s not just one or two things. I mean, it’s affecting everything. It’s telling the whole body what to do in terms of metabolism –



01:34:06 Dr. Trent Mozingo: It’s like your body’s thermostat. It’s your entire body’s thermostat to run your temp. It what it does.



01:34:12 Ashley James: Another thing is that 25% of our TR is converted in the gut. So if you have dysbiosis and you’ve been on antibiotics and you have poor gut health, you’re not converting your T3 enough. Now you’re, 25% less T3. And then also your serotonin, which is converted in the gut. So we see that people have depression and they have mental health issues. That the mental health issues are sexually symptoms. So maybe they get a diagnosis of bipolar or depression, but they’re actually symptoms of a physical root cause.



01:34:54 Dr. Trent Mozingo: And it’s the same thing. I mean, what causes the dysbiosis? What causes poor normal flora is the same thing. It’s poor diet choices which wreak havoc on the digestive tract, which jacks up the small intestine, and allows it to start having a bad bacteria overgrowth, and then it shoots on down. CBOE, there’s a huge study, everyone’s talking about CBOE is correlated with fibromyalgia. And I can’t explain to these people, no. The CBOE is not causing fibromyalgia. What’s causing CBOE is the same cause of fibromyalgia. It’s we’re eating poor  foods and we are vitamin deficient. More importantly, for fibromyalgia, is B2 and B3. Those are what are tasked in the – I think it’s the pyruvate chain – to take lactic acid out of the muscles.

And if you can’t do that, you basically have muscle soreness all the time. And if you’re deficient, you can’t do that. So the fibromyalgia epidemic is basically after a workout muscle soreness, they’re stuck with that.



01:35:54 Ashley James: Right. Because their body is not converting the lactic acid.



01:35:56 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Back. Yes. It’s not coming out of the muscles. Sure. So that’s the first major principles of the book is the digestive system matters, the liver is huge, and if it’s wrong, your thyroid gland goes wrong. But then it goes in to tie into stress and the adrenal glands. Because stress sends out cortisol, which also goes to liver and also shuts off thyroid function.

So if you’re stressed, your metabolism slows down. People that are stressed all day at their job, have a slower metabolism and they can’t help it.



01:36:31 Ashley James: I love learning this. It really freaked me out that when we are in stress mode and it’s healthy to have a good stress response. Because if there’s, all of a sudden, a boulder on the highway, I want my freaking adrenaline to go up. I want to be able to maneuver in a split second. I want to be able to look around, put on my signal, and safely avoid that boulder. But then I want to just, like, chill and my body goes back into the parasympathetic nervous system response of rest and digest. And it’s done. So I want to be able to jump into stress mode to survive and then come back into relax and healing mode as often as possible. Coming back and staying in healing mode as often as possible as long as possible.

But what’s interesting is that when we have cortisol, when cortisol goes up, which is like we say adrenaline. When cortisol goes up, when the stress hormone goes up, it tells the pancreas to produce less insulin to drive blood sugar up and keep it elevated to ensure that muscles –  to run away from the – muscles have this energy. And now we have prolonged high blood sugar, which causes body wide systemic inflammation and damage to all the cells. So just by having a stress response – having too much stress response, basically living in stress mode, we’re causing damage to every cell in the body.

That’s just amazing how – now, it would work if we were living in the woods and chilling out and only in stress mode when we had to run away from a bear once in a while. That would work because I want to be able to like outrun that bear. So I want my pancreas to do that. To produce less insulin, to artificially keep the blood sugar high,  to be able to keep the nutrients so that my arms and legs don’t run out of sugar so I can outrun the bear. So we want to outrun the bear and survive to live another day. So it’s okay that in those two minutes of running and climbing a tree or whatever I gotta do to get away from that bear or fight it that I am able to shut off every other process in my body that isn’t essential to surviving the next two minutes. But we live in that state constantly. So we’re actually damaging our body constantly because we’re not in a healing mode. We’re in a fight or flight mode. I mean, our body is really intelligent. But we’re the ones that are driving the bus. So we’re making the decisions that keep us in that fight or flight response. And then of course, the foods we eat are then triggering stress response as well.

I know it’s a little bit doom and gloom what we’ve been talking about. But I want the listeners to know there’s this beautiful sort of light at the end of the tunnel or beautiful –  it’s like the light that – the rays of light are parting the clouds. The fact that you are in control is just the hope that we want to give you and let you know that yes, there’s toxins in all the materials in our house that we need to really be aware of. The cleaning formulas, off gas, even what’s underneath our sink right now is off gassing is creating toxins in our environment. But we have the ability to control it so we can get a healthy mattress. Or we can choose furniture that doesn’t have flame retardants. And we can choose natural cleaning products. So we can take active steps, just baby steps, one at a time to make sure the air in our house is clean. The water that we’re drinking. Maybe get a Berkey or get a reverse osmosis. Get something that’s making sure the water is clean. And then choosing organic food as much as possible. Choosing whole foods as much as possible.

And now we’re going to get into food next because I want to know what your take is on what a healing and a healthy diet is. But the fact that you have control. And no matter what your budget is, there are lots of home remedies on YouTube. Learn how to make your own cleaners that are really effective, that are nontoxic. You can save money. I can’t believe how much money I’ve actually saved eating a whole foods plant based diet that’s organic. So there’s a way to save money and do this as well. There’s so many things you can do. Just take the baby steps. And every time you make a better choice, you know you’re going in the right direction for your liver, for your thyroid, for your gut. Just baby steps everyday. Take the right step every day to build back a healthy body.

So yeah, there’s a lot of dangers out there. And a lot of things that – we could focus on the negative and the fear mongering. But I want to leave listeners empowered and knowing that they’re in control. And ultimately, they’re going to create a healthier life because of the things they’re learning from you today. So a lot of my listeners have dysbiosis and have shared with me that they have symptoms of small intestinal bacterial overgrowth.

And it then becomes this question like, do they get on the FODMAPS diet or the GAPS diet or some kind of diet to starve the bad bacteria. Or do they really just get on some herbs and kind of like nuclear bomb the bad and the good bacteria. Wipe them out with olive leaf extract or whatever and all those different herbs and then rebuild. What’s your take on how someone can come back from dysbiosis?



01:42:06 Dr. Trent Mozingo: So my system, what I focus on is less of the large intestine, more of small intestine function. But yeah, so there’s things that help combat those. I’m not an herbalist. I am not good with those. For me, you need to go to a specialist. You need to go to a Naturopath or someone that they work with herbs all the time. Because they can be pretty anecdotal. They can pack a lot of punch. So doing that correctly is pretty important in my opinion.

But starving the bacteria, it’s not hard to do. The bad bacteria thrives on sugar. So first cut that out. That’s number one, any liquid calories cut that out. You’re going to help a bunch in that regard. Green leafy vegetables are tough to digest for the people that have digestive distress. And it takes time to get back.

Through my system, I let everyone know that their health status – their current health status is not forever. Your health is constantly on a sliding scale. Every single thing, every single choice, every meal, every day a stress or day of joy, it slides that up and down on a scale of zero to 100. That’s how my brain works. Say you fill up my long quiz – it’s on my website – and it tells you how healthy you are on a scale of zero to 100 based on symptoms alone. So you get 65%. That’s not terrible. It’s not great. But I want people to know that that’s where they’re at right now. And every positive choice that you make, whether it’s clean eating or going for a run or picking up a new hobby at the community center, anything you do to make you a positive shift in your health, you’re going to slide up that scale. You’re going to feel less symptoms. You’re going to feel better overall, which should be everyone’s goal. More energy, feeling better.

So that’s a great point that you make, there is light at the end of the tunnel. If you make more good choices than bad, you’re going to slide in a positive shift on your health status. And that is what I teach everyone. Is they are control of every choice they make. I can explain to them what happens when they make the wrong ones. And I can also explain to them the beauty of making the right ones, the right choices, the right nutritional changes.



01:44:43 Ashley James: So those are good for people who have the dysbiosis. What about people that just really want to eat healthy and want to just make sure that what they’re doing is optimal for longevity. Like you growing up, hardly ever get sick. Obviously, you never needed a flu shot growing up. You hardly ever got sick. You just went to bed when the sun went down and woke up with the sun. And your family made food and lived on the farm .And you knew exactly what was going on. You’re playing going into feed your cells.



01:45:18 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Sure. It starts with your mentality. Two, you have to have a goal, a plan. And that’s another great thought for anyone that’s trying to do nutritional changes is plan your food. Don’t wake up in the morning not knowing what you’re going to eat that day. Because that often pushes us into that frenzy and we make poor choices. So planning your meal plan for the week is pretty important. And also going to the grocery store and buying your food instead of just saying, “Oh, I’ll just grab something for lunch tomorrow at the restaurant.” Plan it out. It starts there.

So positive thought process is also vital for anyone’s health. I stay positive all day every day. I never let myself get down. And that fear mongering, like you spoke of, that is the medical systems way. They love to doom people into saying, “I’m diagnosed with this.” Or “I’m diagnosed with that.” You’re in control of any dysfunction in your body. You just got to figure out how to fuel it and get the right advice to go in that direction.



01:46:27 Ashley James: So can you paint the picture of what it looks like for the average American to transition off of the standard American diet and eat a diet that supports their body?



01:46:40 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Okay. So all the research that I’ve done – again the book is called, The Weight Is Over, because there’s a lot of people out there trying to lose weight. That’s the idea but they’re trying to do it in a healthy way too, I’m hoping. So the healthiest way to eat – and if you want to talk about the hormones involved, I can – but intermittent fasting is the healthiest

style of eating. It basically simulates. Back I talked about at the beginning of time, that hunter and gather style. Food is not always available. Food should not always be available for the human body to thrive. It needs to be hungry a long time. That’s where intermittent fasting comes in. There’s several different ways to do it. You can do a 16 hour fast or 18 hour fast or 12 hour fast or 24 hour fast. Figuring that out is on the individual. So when you are fasted, your body will release the human growth hormone, that is your anti-aging hormone. That is why people that eat less calories live longer. There’s studies that show that. It increases longevity.

So whole food intermittent fasting is how our human body is designed to eat. Not chemicals, intermittent fasting. A Snickers once a day is intermittent fasting. Whole Foods after a fast is how we’re designed to eat. I also feel that animal meats are supposed to be eating after exercise. So think about the hunter and gatherer, berries and roughage was always readily relatively available because you could gather a bunch. But a protein source in animal, you had to go hunt it, you had to find it, you had to gather. You had to, basically, run, catch it, shoot it, stab it with a bow, whatever you had to do. So it was vigorous exercise prior to that treat of an animal meat. So I like to only eat my meats after I exercise that day.



01:48:37 Ashley James: So you’re really only eating maybe one meal a day with meat. And you’re not necessarily eating meat every day.



01:48:44 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Eighty percent of our nutrition, in my opinion, should be plant based. Twenty percent animal based.



01:48:50 Ashley James: Right. A few people I’ve had on the show, like The China Study, which is like this big meta analysis. But Dr. Joel Fuhrman says if we can make 10% of our calories being animal products or less, then they see that that creates longevity and less disease.



01:49:16 Dr. Trent Mozingo: It’s true to some regards. But there’s also the Eskimo community that eats nothing but fish and meat. And they live very healthy, low inflammation lives as well.



01:49:27 Ashley James: But they don’t have longevity on their side though. They don’t live to be like 90 or 100 years old. So in terms of disease-free and longevity, because those are the – we could eat the Eskimo diet and will be really low in disease but we won’t live to be 100, basically.



01:49:45 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Okay. Fair. That’s a fair point with that study. But I mean, climate would probably play a role in there too. They’re also cold all the time. That would be difficult.q2

But something that also – I mean the temperatures you’re exposed to plays a pretty big role in your health too. And sunlight and vitamin D and things like that.



01:50:05 Ashley James: Sure. Absolutely. I love my Sunlight and Sauna.



01:50:09 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Absolutely. It’s cleansing. So whole food, 80% nutrition, in my opinion, is vegetable based. If you don’t exercise, you don’t need as much animal fat as well because your muscles don’t need to grow as much. That’s really what animals are for is to support muscle growth.



01:50:28 Ashley James: Interesting. And I’m not here to be controversial at all because I don’t believe in diet dogma. I want a healing diet for people. And what a whole food plant based, no animal diet is going to be really healing for some and not for others at that period in their life. So it’s like you just have to know what your body needs. But it’s a really interesting documentary. You may or may not have seen it, it’s new. It’s just on Netflix now called the Game Changers. The world’s strongest man who has been a strong man his whole life – his whole adult life, he gained 30 pounds of muscle after going vegan. And he has been vegan for 12 years. And he, actually, as a vegan broke the world record carrying 1200 pounds 33 feet. So it’s interesting that it breaks that misconception that we have to eat animal protein to build healthy muscles. But I respect the value in some of the amino acids you’re saying are readily available from those meats after exercise.



01:51:39 Dr. Trent Mozingo: And I discussed in the book, if you can live in a vegan life, you’re going to be low inflammation. But that also doesn’t mean – you can be a vegan and eat nothing but crackers. That’s not –



01:51:49 Ashley James: Or Oreos. Oreos are vegan. And vegan doesn’t mean healthy whole food plant based. No salt, sugar, or oil would definitely mean healthy. 



01:51:58 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yes. There’s a new documentary also called Fat, it contests that a little bit. It’s really good. It’s very informative on children with, I want to say – there’s a study that shows a high – keto diet would help with – I can’t remember the condition the child had but it cured them. So again, every person needs to find that balance for themselves. What makes them feel good? If you don’t feel good eating something, you probably shouldn’t. Pretty simple logic there.

I also studied under there – read the book of Dr. D’Adamo, the Dieting For Blood Type. Pretty interesting stuff. I’m a type A blood type, which means I should be relatively vegetarian based in it. I actually do thrive on a vegetarian based, very minimal animal fats. But I grew up on a beef farm. So that was hard for me to give up. That’s all I knew. So I can I can only eat steak once a week, usually. It’s the time I’ll eat an animal or – excuse me – a red meat.

But chicken, fish, I digest pretty well and it feels pretty good. And I feel pretty healthy with that. But yeah, it’s 80% plant based for me. But there’s some people that are different. And you got to figure that out.



01:53:19 Ashley James: So I was looking at our genetics. Genetics don’t – it doesn’t mean that we’re helpless because we have genetics. Because some people say, “Oh, the reason why [inaudible 01:53:30] is genetic.” Or the reason why you have – you know, eczema is genetic. It’s the gun but it doesn’t pull the trigger. Your body is going to respond to nutrient deficiency in a predictable way. You can look at if your entire family is vitamin D deficient or your entire family is calcium deficient or EFA deficient, your entire family kind of develops this set of diseases because that’s like the weak links in your genetics. Versus another family who develops a different set of illnesses with a deficiency or with different stressors. But it doesn’t pull the trigger. So that means we have to know our genetics so that we know how to prevent it by eating for health.

I had Mariel Hemingway on the show, who’s the granddaughter of Ernest Hemingway. And she’s had seven suicides in their family, including, of course, the famous American author, Ernest Hemingway. So growing up, it was her – from a very young age, it was her motivation to constantly look at how could she make her entire lifestyle be about physical health and mental health. So she journaled and went to therapy. Her genetics say that – and mostly everyone in her family has depression or suicide or bipolar or alcoholism or drug addiction. So addiction and mental illness are rampant in her genetics. But that doesn’t mean she’s going to have it. It means she knows that if she’s deficient or if she goes and eats the standard American diet, that that’s her genetic predisposition is to have those problems.

Whereas someone else’s with someone else’s genetic makeup, they might have developed type two diabetes. She would develop suicidal thoughts and depression with the same stressors on the body. So we have to understand that genetics don’t cause it. It doesn’t cause our problems. They are the blueprints. And just like some people are just more muscular than others. And some people can put on more muscle than others. Just genetically, the whole family’s really muscular. And all they have to do is just do light exercise and they’re really muscular versus this other family that’s maybe, better at endurance sports.

So it’s like we see the gifts in our genetics but also see that the gift is that you use your genetics as a motivation. Like, everyone in my family had a heart disease and so I’m going to use that as my motivation to prevent it through following this lifestyle. Especially reading your book, The Weight Is Over, which I think is brilliant. I think it’s beautiful. I think it’s actually really obtainable. Like you said, it was hard for you to really cut back on red meat or give it up entirely. A lot of people don’t want to give up their meat. And I was one of those people. My husband went vegan overnight. I had a guest on the show and she said a few key things and he said, “I am never eating meat again.” And he was the guy who ate nothing but meat. To get him to eat a vegetable was ridiculously hard. And then he just overnight said, “You know what? I just heard enough. I’m never eating meat again.” And he loves it. He loves not eating meat. He loves legumes and beans and nuts and seeds and vegetables and fruit. And he thrives on it. And he’s so happy. He’s happier. He’s calmer in his own body. He’s just a happier person. You just notice he’s happier.

I like that you said we really need to be science based because we can all be on, like, the cheese cracker diet or the coffee and cigarette diet. And it’s like you know what? Feeling good – there’s two kinds of feel goods You said we should always feel good on our diet. You know what? You can feel really good on a McDonald’s diet. You can feel really good in the moment. You can be jacked up on sugar. Because it’s fun. It’s fun to eat that way in the moment. You can feel good but do you feel good the next day? Do you feel good waking up in the morning? Do you feel good going to bed at night?

So I would say that, does your diet make you feel good even three days after eating that food? And instead of the feel good in the moment, it’s like, do you feel good all the time? And do you have less inflammation and better digestion? Is your health improving? If your diet is improving and building upon your health, then good. But I love that you said, have 80% of your diet be plant based because we need to get the fiber and vitamins and minerals. We just can’t get that from eating the standard American diet.



01:59:03 Dr. Trent Mozingo: No. Nothing processed is going to have it. And if it has any vitamins, it’s been synthesized and put back into the – synthetic vitamins are just pumping into the junk food. So it doesn’t really count anyway. Vitamins from plants, fruits, and vegetables it runs the entire human body. You have to have them.



01:59:27 Ashley James: What did you eat for breakfast this morning?



01:59:30 Dr. Trent Mozingo: I usually do a smoothie in the morning. Spinach, typically carrots, some strawberries. I use a protein powder from a company that I use a standard process. It’s pretty clean protein powder. And I blend that up with water. It’s not very delicious.



01:59:48 Ashley James: It’s not?



01:59:51 Dr. Trent Mozingo: No. No. But I can eat anything. So it’s not really too big of a deal for me. Once you start getting to that eat for health – but then there’s also days when if you think that you have to eat super healthy all the time, it will make you crazy. So there’s a cheat day every once in a while too. But I eat very healthy 90% of my time.



02:00:09 Ashley James: If you could figure out how to make your cheat meals actually healthy, like I’m – oh man. I have made some really cool desserts. Sweet potatoes, bake some sweet potatoes and then put them in a food processor with raw cacao powder. And if you need, you can add some dates or you can add some date syrup or just a little stevia. But oftentimes the sweet potatoes are sweet enough. And it’s like chocolate. It’s a chocolate pudding and my four year old loves it. And I’m just laughing because I’m feeding them healthy food.

And then another one is just making – you can take avocado and blend it with the raw cacao powder. And that makes a delicious mousse. And then the third, I’m, of course, just going on basically it’s like making mousse with chocolate. But that’s my thing. That’s what satisfies me.

You can also do it with tofu. You can take silken tofu and blend it with raw cacao powder and some stevia or some maple syrup, if you want. If you’re okay with that with a little bit of sugar. Oh my gosh, the kids love it. It tastes amazing. So yeah, there’s things that you can do and you can take sweet potato and black beans and mix them with stevia or maple syrup or whatever sweetener. I prefer stevia. You can do dates. Mix it with some raw cacao powder and bake it and it becomes like brownies.



02:01:38 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yeah. I’m not very adventurous in my food. I stick a bunch of vegetables on a plate and I put some fruit on top of it to make it a little bit better and I eat it. I am the most boring cook in the world.


02:01:52 Ashley James: I love getting creative in the kitchen. But I love to fake cheat. So it’s still healthy food. I still feel good the next day. But once in a while, I get that feeling like I cheated. But it’s not cheating at all. My friend, Naomi, makes the most amazing – she makes a cashew cream and then we dip fruit into it or vegetables into it and it tastes like it’s made from heavy whipping cream but it’s made from cashews and it’s amazing. Oh yeah, so good. And the kids love it. And then they’re like eating more fruit. Not like you need to get the kids to eat fruit. But it is really awesome.

So yeah, there’s some fun ways to still be whole food plant based or still be – eat a whole foods diet. That is fun. So that’s the thing. That’s what I love to look for is, how can I make this enjoyable for the family? But you’re right, most of the time I eat – like my plate is just a bunch of vegetables and I’m happy with that. But once in a while your brain just really wants to break. When we go to the movies, I always pack food to go into the movies because it smells so good at the movie theater. You want to just have their canola oil, GMO canola oil covered popcorn. And then you’re eating glyphosate. And then the next day, I can feel it. I can feel the inflammation from all the junk food eating at the movies. So we pack in. I’ve never had a problem, by the way. I never ever had a problem bringing my own food into the movie theater and my own beverages. I just bring a big thing of water.

But we bake some chickpeas. So you’ve cooked them. They’re already cooked. And then you bake them with seasoning, like Mexican seasoning or whatever. And so they’re dry, but you pop them in your mouth like their popcorn. And it’s so much fun. It’s so easy. And then I usually do cut up vegetables and some kind of hummus or just a bunch of cut up vegetables. You can cut up zucchini, so that’s carrot –  so it’s like crackers. And then you can make little sandwiches, like zucchini sandwiches like the little cracker sandwiches with some hummus.  So there’s like fun things that you can do that you still feel like you’re getting snack food but it’s whole foods. And the best thing is the next day when you wake up in the morning, you jump out of bed and you feel like every cell in your body is singing. You just feel like you’re on top of the world because you just nourished every cell in your body. And instead of creating inflammation and disease.



02:04:18 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Yeah. That’s a powerful thing. It really is.



02:04:23 Ashley James: Since coming out with your book, and obviously, you’ve had your clients read it, and you’re promoting it, and you’re getting great feedback. Can you share some stories of success of people that have read your book and implemented your program?



02:04:38 Dr. Trent Mozingo: For me, I track for patients. I actually make patients track everything on their own. Giving themselves the responsibility back. I want them to understand what their weight which way it’s moving, how many bowel movements they’re having a day, what are the consistency of their bowel movements. And those that are really needing a lot of help, I make them check their blood sugar every day. I think the funniest thing to fix is probably IBS.



02:05:05 Ashley James: Yeah. No kidding. Because they’re really suffering.



02:05:08 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Everyday those patients are in distress. They don’t know when it’s going to come. But they know they better have a restroom very close. And to hear them tell me, “I no longer have to stress. I know in the mornings I wake up, I’m going to have a nice healthy bowel movement.” That, in my opinion, is a life changer for these patients. Changing someone’s blood sugar is important, health wise. But it doesn’t change. They’re just overall daily life, like removing that digestive hysteria. And it goes away pretty quick. Like you said, if you organize your food and you get your body rejuvenated and your digestive system healed, it works pretty quick. And helping people lose weight, it’s always fun. But that real stress relief is what I like.



02:06:02  Ashley James: I love it. I love it. Do you have any homework you like to give the listeners today?



02:06:08 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Homework? That’s good. I think I would tell a patient or a person or a listener – I don’t know if they’re doing it yet – but meal planning is the most important thing. And it sounds like if you have recipes on your Facebook to go there and find them because they sound delicious. And plan to put some of those in there. But I think that the most important homework is try to do as much research about what food does, what vitamins are, where they come from, and how they integrate and interact inside your body is pretty important as far as learning how to fix yourself is first learning how your body works. And that education is valuable for family, for your kids, for everyone.


02:07:02 Ashley James: Some people aren’t motivated to themselves but they’ll do it for their kids.



02:07:07 Dr. Trent Mozingo:  And they should.



02:07:08 Ashley James: Our kids are not going to do it. We say they’re going to do what we do. We have to be the example of health for them. And for moms, we often will put our health last. We’ll shovel food in our mouth in between like standing up by the sink. In between feeding one kid and feeding another and getting them better ready for bed. It’s just the standing over the sink shoveling food into our mouth is not dinner. And it’s not a meal. And it’s not even a snack. You’re not even digesting and absorbing that food because you’re still in stress mode. We need to carve out time for ourselves. It is that story of putting the oxygen mask on ourselves first. It is not self-indulgent. It is necessary. If you love –  of course you love your children. But if you want to be here long term because raising children and helping your family is a marathon, not a sprint, then we need to do the self-care everyday. We need to do self-care.

And it’s not self-indulgent, it’s not egotistical. It is needed. That taking care of you is taking care of your family. Because if you’re down for the count, no one’s getting fed. And I saw that in my mom, she ran herself ragged and she was bedridden and sick with the flu, because she wouldn’t even take care of herself. And then she got Candida because her doctor put her on months and months of antibiotics because she wasn’t willing to just sit down and relax. And that’s what led us to –  when I was six – my mom took a Naturopath that actually was Dr. D’Adamo, the writer Your Blood Type Diet. He was my Naturopath when I was six. And I had this entire shift where he said, “You’re O blood type, you’re allergic to wheat, yeast, milk, and sugar. Get it out of your life.” And so we went home and my mom threw it all out. And I grew up on soy milk. And from the age between ages six and 13, I had zero illness, I had full health and vitality. And then I rebelled. I was 13. I was pissed off at the world and my parents. And I ate all the Halloween candy. And I went to a new school with the cafeteria and I just started eating all the cafeteria food. And all it took was one meal a day, that lunch, eating that crappy, crappy cafeteria food.

I gave myself disease b the time I was to 20. Basically, I ate healthy breakfast at home. I ate healthy dinner. But that lunch every day, I gave myself lifestyle and diet – diseases caused by diet. But then I didn’t have the wherewithal. My brain was full of junk and brain fog. And it took me my entire 20s of suffering to turn it around. So by the time I was 26 or – sorry – 28 is when I went – I had that wake up call and started to shop in the perimeter of the grocery store. And now I’m almost 40. So I had that sort of like ill health in my early years. Then many years of health following exactly what you teach. And then I went back to eating the way everyone else eats but only one third of the time. So we can’t just eat a healthy breakfast and a healthy dinner and go out to McDonald’s. I always pick on McDonald’s. But go out to some restaurant one meal a day and think we’re building our body healthfully. It has to be every meal to be able to build health.



02:10:46 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Stay focused, that’s for sure. Food and mentality too. That’s also just important having a positive outlook, positive thoughts, positive people around you with the same ideas and plans.



02:11:00 Ashley James: Brilliant. Beautiful. I know we’ve covered so much. Is there anything left unsaid? Anything you want to make sure that you let the listener know to wrap up today’s interview?



02:11:14 Dr. Trent Mozingo: I think just make sure they know they’re in control of their health. Not their doctor. Not their personal trainer. No one. It’s on them to really take control.



02:11:23 Ashley James: Awesome. So the listeners who get your book, of course, the links are going to be in the show notes of today’s podcast at The Weight Is Over book by Dr. Dr. Trent Mozingo. I love your last name. We’re all going to remember that name. Mozingo. Now, your website is That website and the link to your book is going to be in the show notes for today’s podcast. It has been such a pleasure having you on the show today. And you’re welcome back. I bet we could talk about a few more fun topics.



02:11:54 Dr. Trent Mozingo: I think we could talk forever it sounds like. That’s great.



02:11:57 Ashley James: That would be wonderful. I’d love to have you back. Thank you so much. It has been such a pleasure having you on the show today.



02:12:03 Dr. Trent Mozingo: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here.



02:12:05 Outro: Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition? And how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity? Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business, support people in their success? Do you love helping people?

You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program. And it really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over 100 dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition. But from a standpoint of how we can help people to shift their life and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health.

I definitely recommend that you check them out. You can Google Institute for Integrative Nutrition or IIN and give them a call. Or you can go to and you can receive a free module of their training. So check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in. Be sure to mention my name, Ashley James, and the Learn True Health Podcast because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program. And I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information.

We need more health coaches. In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctors offices. You can work in hospitals. You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help your local schools shift their programs to help children to be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success in their health goals.

There’s so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach. So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. Mention my name. Get the best deal. Give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon.  The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month. So you’re going to want to call them now and check it out. And if you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.

Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price? For high quality supplements and to talk to someone about what supplements are best for you, go to and one of our fantastic true health coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are the highest quality and the best price. That’s That’s Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program.


Get Connected With Dr. Trent Mozingo!


Facebook – New Start Health Center

Facebook – Dr. Trent Mozingo



Book by Dr. Trent Mozingo

The Weight Is Over


Recommended Reading by Dr. Trent Mozingo

Start With Why by Simon Sinek


Oct 20, 2019

The Homework:

1) Check out meditation videos by Forrest Knutson on YouTube:

2) The Magnesium Soak! Visit and use coupon code LTH for our listener discount.

3) Check out Ashley's Free Your Anxiety Course!

Get Eliot's books and listen to his podcasts here:


Inner Power


  • You’re not alone. Community plays an important role in helping people with anxiety or depression to get better. Nobody ever has to be alone.
  • You’re not a victim of your circumstances. You can’t control your circumstances. You don’t have control over others.
  • It’s okay to fail. We learn the best through failing. Nobody learns from success.
  • Give even through the worst times, it’s when you have to give the most because what comes back to you is going to be so much better than what you give.
  • Don’t die for your beliefs. You have to be willing to be wrong. Be willing to change your mind because we keep on learning.


In this episode, Eliot Marshall shares with us ways on how he deals with his anxiety. He tells us martial arts has helped him to stay calm in the very worst moments of his life and how teaching martial arts while having anxiety saved his life by giving the most of what he could for his students.


[0:00] Intro: Hello true health seeker and welcome to another episode of Learn True Health podcast.

Today we have a wonderful guest. You are going to love Eliot Marshall. He’s such a genuine soul with a beautiful voice and I just love his heart. I know you will love his stories and his passion and compassion today listening to this wonderful interview. Interestingly enough, he asked me, I asked him to give us some homework and he asked me for some homework. So, I want to make sure that you know about these three resources that I shared with him.

One is for mediation, I know it’s a really big buzzword and we can just break it down and make it really simple. So many people find that meditation is helpful to them. So if you want to experience the benefits of meditation but you don’t know where to start, I recommend a free resource. Someone I’ve had on the show before who’s actually a really close friend of mine, his name is Forrest Knutson. You can find him on YouTube by searching Forrest Knutson. His website is thatyogiguy. He teaches. He’s made so many great videos and he teaches how to meditate in a very easy way. He utilizes neurofeedback and neuroscience. So he’s all about the science around what happens to the brain when we quiet the mind and also what happens to the nervous system taking us out of the stress response, which is very helpful if we’re looking to decrease the physical effects of anxiety and also decrease anxiety itself. So I recommend that as a resource.

The next thing I really recommend for anyone who’s experiencing problems with sleep or problems with anxiety or panic attacks is soaking in magnesium. If you’re a first-time listener, I have several interviews about this talking about the science behind magnesium. You can go to my website, type in magnesium and listen to my episodes about the magnesium soak. We actually absorb grams of magnesium when we do this soak. It is through and we were given a coupon code LTH, as in Learn True Health, to receive the listener discount. So go to, type in the coupon code LTH and get the jug of magnesium soak. Listen to the episode first so you understand all the benefits and how to soak in it. Our body actually absorbs grams of this magnesium and people, we have hundreds of listeners shared that they have better sleep, significantly less anxiety and that they have a greater sense of well-being. It really does make a difference especially when we’re magnesium deficient.

The third I recommend, I teach an entire course, it’s an entire month-long course, on eliminating anxiety and all the neurolinguistic programming tools that will allow you and empower you to no longer have anxiety. You can go to my website and in the menu click on in the Anxiety there. You’ll see more information about it. I really recommend my course for anyone who wants to significantly reduce stress, anxiety, panic attacks, worry or if you just are really interested in personal growth and you want more tools on your tool belt. It is a fantastic course. I make it affordable for everyone to be able to learn these tools in such a way that it will empower them.

So those are my three recommendations for people who want to decrease stress and anxiety in their life. Check those out. Enjoy today’s show. Thank you so much for being a listener. Thank you for sharing this episode with those you care about especially those who you know have some issues with anxiety, with worry, with depression. We can get together as a community and support each other. That’s what we need to do. No man is an island. We need to get together and support each other and do that by sharing episodes that’ll help each other and sharing what has helped us. Letting our friends and family know that we’re struggling too and we’re there for them. The more that we put down our guard and be vulnerable with each other and we share with each other that we care for one another, the more we can make a difference in this world. Recently, data from the CDC that was published shows that the suicide rate for generation z, this is the generation between the ages of 10 and 24 years old, has increased by 56% percent between the years 2007 and 2017. Suicide is now the second leading cause of death for generation z. This is a major epidemic. We need to do something right now. The only way we can make differences as individuals. So as individuals, all of us together can support each other by sharing this episode with those we care about and using the tools that Eliot teaches today. Just being there for each other, just reaching out to those we love and letting them know that we’re a should that they have and letting them know that we want to hear them and listen to them and that they’re heard. Also letting them know that we’re struggling too. Just that amount of communication could save someone’s life. So that’s why I’m so honored to be able to publish this episode today because my hope is that we can spread this message and turn this ripple into a tidal wave and help as many people as possible to learn true health.

Welcome to the Learn true health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is episode 387.


[06:13] Ashley James: I’m so excited for today’s guest. We have with us Eliot Marshall who has an amazing story. What I love is he’s here to teach us how to find our power. As I’ve said on the show before health, a lot of times we look at physical health but health is not always just physical. Our mental and our emotional body and our energetic body all play a role in creating our physical health. We need to be able to create that inner power, that inner motivation, that inner strength, we need to cultivate that so that we can go out and do the things that support our life, our health physically but also our joy in our life. Eliot, it’s such a pleasure to have you here today.


[06:55] Eliot Marshall: Thanks, Ashley. Thanks for having me on. I could not agree with what you said more.


[07:00] Ashley James: Absolutely. Now your website is Of course links to everything you do, it’s going to be in the show notes of today’s podcast Eliot, you’ve got two podcasts that you do. You wrote a book. You own six gyms. You’re a professional fighter. It’s just like the list goes on and on and on.


[07:23] Eliot Marshall: I had a massive breakdown four years ago. I had a massive, what I like to call spiritual mental breakdown/spiritual awakening. I wasn’t paying attention to those things that were so important.


[07:36] Ashley James: We’re definitely going to dive in to your story. It sounds like you found your power though.


[07:41] Eliot Marshall: Yes. You know, I’m still gathering it. I don’t believe in ever reaching the top of the mountain.


[07:49] Ashley James: We’re never done, right?


[07:50] Eliot Marshall: We’re never done. The day I stop grinding is the day that they put the dirt on me. That grind might change. I don’t know what it’s going to look like that whenever –


[08:01] Ashley James: Yes. You get to the pearly gates and Jesus is like, “Alright, put you to work.”


[08:09] Eliot Marshall: Whoever it is up there, you know. Whatever it is. I’m never too concerned. I used to be super concerned with it. Now, I’m not concerned with it at all, I believe that we’re experiencing both heaven and hell while we are alive. So, I’m not sure what happens to me after I die. I guess I don’t even really care. I do care about what I do while I’m here on this earth.


[08:39] Ashley James: What a beautiful dichotomy to hold in your mind the idea that we’re going through heaven and hell at the same time. That we can learn and grow and utilize both experiences or both perspectives to help propel us forward and help others as well. I think we find really true joy when we reach out and help others. Our ego drops away. We’re in the now. We’re totally in that moment. You love helping people too. That’s why my podcast is Learn True Health. It’s not like achieve true health and then you’re done. It’s Learn True Health and keep learning and keep learning and keep learning. So, we’re going to learn from you today, Eliot. I’d love for you to start by sharing your story. What happened in your life that lead you to be such a wise soul?


[09:26] Eliot Marshall: I’ll start with I was born to an African-American dad who grew up very, very poor and White-Jewish mother whose parents, my grandparents, survived the concentration camps. So, I had a very interesting upbringing. We lived in this really small town. You know those towns where like they know when the kid’s born that he’s going to be the quarterback of a high school football team and a homecoming king? Like everybody knows that. That’s my town. I didn’t fit in very well. Looking back on it, it worked out great for me. In it, it sucked. So then, I would say grandparents, my mom’s parents had a huge, they had a very huge influence on my life. I saw them three times a week. There was a common thing. That common thing was Hitler will be coming again. I didn’t know that it was difficult. I didn’t know the effects that all of that had on me. It obviously played a role.


[10:45] Ashley James: Did you feel persecuted or ostracized for?


[10:49] Eliot Marshall: Yes. I had no friends. I had two friends my whole growing up, maybe three. That was pretty much the extent of it.


[10:58] Ashley James: That lack of acceptance must have really played into the belief that Hitler was coming back for you as a child growing up. That fear, you didn’t feel accepted by your community. If you’re community is already rejecting you then that fear that the holocaust is going to happen again was really real for you, really palpable.


[11:15] Eliot Marshall: Yes. There whole life was set for it to happen again. When they died, my sister lives in that currently, when my grandmother died at the time we went downstairs, it was 2000 and there was sugar and flour and stuff from 1979. We were ready. We were definitely ready.


[11:42] Ashley James: My aunt was a prepper back in the 70s. Until the day she passed away, she did the same thing. She filled her entire basement with canned goods. I understand that. I didn’t understand at the time but then I started to get. That’s a reality.


[12:02] Eliot Marshall: It’s a reality. Look man. We stole. I remember crawling in farms, because I lived in South Jersey where there’s a lot of farms, at night and going to get cucumbers. We didn’t need to steal. There was no necessity for us to steal. That’s just how they survived, my grandparents, right. Like okay, well let’s go. We didn’t steal massive things. We stole 10 cucumbers, which I’m not condoning it. I’m not saying that this was right or anything like that but that was the mentality. That was the concentration camp mentality. You have to survive. For me, I think it’s kind of what triggered my anxiety because I was always like, “Well man, what am I surviving from? It seems pretty good. I’m never hungry. Why should we be scared?” It triggered this from my life, like this. Like what’s coming down the pipe. Then it came a couple of times as an older. The first time I was 19 years old. It was pretty bad. The second time I was 21 and it was bad.


[13:22] Ashley James: When you say it was bad, were these events or were these panic attacks?


[13:26] Eliot Marshall: Yes. Acute anxiety episodes that lasted for about six to nine months. Then, up until this point you’ll never know what’s coming. Up until this point, my worst one was in 2016. It was, that was my dance with the devil. That was my dance with the devil.


[13:51] Ashley James: Were they provoked like something happened that triggered it or just out of nowhere, you’re like sitting at home eating dinner and then boom?


[13:58] Eliot Marshall: This last one, in 2016, I just got back from 2 weeks in Maui and my life was perfect. My businesses, I had two at the time, they were successful. I had a great wife. I had a great house. I had two great kids. I’m by no means like a gazillionaire but I didn’t, like if I want something I could do it. We’re not talking like Bugattis and private jets, right. We’re talking like normal everyday people stuff. If I wanted to go out to a nice dinner I wouldn’t even think about like what to save. I’ve none of that going on, nothing. My kids are healthy, my wife’s healthy, everything’s perfect. Literally two weeks in Hawaii, comeback jetlagged and that’s what did it. Just a little jetlag and then I didn’t sleep for five days. Maybe let’s just say somewhere between four and eight hours of sleep in five days.


[14:55] Ashley James: Sounds like it’s related to your stress response.


[14:57] Eliot Marshall: Yes. Probably. I mean at this time when I go back and look at it, I was consumed with looking at the numbers at work. How many members we had. I was consumed.


[15:15] Ashley James: You have a degree in math, right?


[15:17] Eliot Marshall: Yes. I have a degree in math but don’t ask me any hard questions coz I got punched in the head for a living for 10 years. So that’s always part of it, right? I’m like, “Man, is this the CTE?” because I couldn’t tell you how many, I mean concussion every day. I got punched in the head twice a week every week from 2005 until 2011. I’m not talking about punching the head by a five-year-old. I’m talking about punch in the head by 250-260 pound man.


[15:53] Ashley James: Your neurological wiring growing up was this fear that the third world war is about to happen, the holocaust is about to happen again. Then you have like a million concussions. So there might be some little bit of brain injury that you’re healing from.


[16:16] Eliot Marshall: You know, my brain looks good on MRI. Like obviously I’m not stupid. So I was always making sure if things like that. I had a brain MRI, I don’t know two years ago, my brain looks good. The real problems are what you can’t see on an MRI.



[16:31] Ashley James: Right, because that’s structural. The structure of the brain isn’t really how the brain works.


[16:36] Eliot Marshall: Like Aaron Hernandez, when he died it was the worst case of CTE that they’d ever seen. A lot of people think the guy’s a terrible human being but I mean how much can we blame him?


[16:50] Ashley James: Right. It’s the same for people who have a mental health condition. You can’t hold something against someone who’s schizophrenic or bipolar. They’re going through something. So, we have to take that into account and hold empathy and forgiveness. So what happened then? So after your last biggest in 2016, your biggest breakdown, how did you recover?


[17:22] Eliot Marshall: I realized that the way out was in.


[17:26] Ashley: I love that.


[17:27] Eliot Marshall: I’m going to try my very best not to sound super conceited here. For my schools, I’m the one that’s made it the farthest. I’ve won almost everything else there is to win. I made it to the UFC, which is like the crown jewel. If there’s a crown jewel for martial arts it’s did you fight in the UFC? I was not a champion but that’s like a marker that most people, almost no one gets to have especially 10 years ago. I’ve competed in everything. I’ve won. So people are like looking at me like, “Okay. That’s the mark.” I was just real honest with people. I was like, “Look, yeah I might be your mark but don’t worry, I struggle too just like you guys. So I’m going to be okay. I have great friends that help me. I have all of the tools necessary to get this done. I just want all of you to know,” and I said this in front of the class one day. I like pulled everyone in right in the middle of my hell. I said, “I want all of you to know that if this is for you too, if this is what’s going on, you’re not alone. You’re not alone. We’ll all get through this together because that’s what we do as a community. We lean on people and we’re strong for ourselves and for others as well.”


[18:59] Ashley James: Did anyone come forward and say-?


[19:02] Eliot Marshall: Yes, a bunch. I’m like a professional therapist now, Ashley.


[19:09] Ashley James: I love that.


[19:11] Eliot Marshall: That’s what got me to write my book and start this podcast that I have. My original podcast called the Gospel of Fire. The book is by the same title. So yes, that’s what got me to do all of it was my, I won’t even say my path to overcoming because I don’t believe in overcoming. I just believe in the moment, right now because this is all we’ve got.


[19:37] Ashley James: You know if more people were to stand up and say to their friends or their community, “I’m going through depression and I want to let you know. Let’s get through this together. If anyone else is going through depression, let’s talk about it or suicidal thoughts or anxiety or fear. If we were to instead of all be locked away in our houses, you know if you look at neighborhoods today –


[20:05] Eliot Marshall: On our cellphones.


[20:05] Ashley James: Right, we’re all locked away on our cellphones.


[20:08] Eliot Marshall: In our houses on our cellphones.


[20:10] Ashley James: Right, right. We’re so isolated. We’ve really created a society in the last generation that’s very isolated. The best thing for mental health is to do it as a community. I did this really amazing interview with this guy who travel around the world to study these techniques that are actually working at helping end addiction and helping end like mental health issues like depression and people who –


[20:44] Eliot Marshall: What’s his name?


[20:47] Ashley James: I will remember.


[20:49] Eliot Marshall: Is it Johann Hari?


[20:50] Ashley James: Yes.


[20:53] Eliot Marshall: I’m trying to get him on my podcast because he wrote those two books are amazing.


[20:57] Ashley James: His books are amazing. Yes, I had Johann on. It’s funny because he was like –


[21:01] Eliot Marshall: So his book the one Lost Connections and that’s about anxiety and depression, right? The other –


[21:07] Ashley James: I had him on the show right as his second book came out. So we talked about both of them.


[21:10] Eliot Marshall: That was Lost Connections.


[21:10] Ashley James: Right, we talked about both of them.


[21:12] Eliot Marshall: I hit him up. He’s writing a third book right now. He’s like, “Give me six months and I’ll do it.”


[21:19] Ashley James: Sweet. Well, he’s a great guest. I’ll vouch for you.


[21:23] Eliot Marshall: Yes. I love his books.


[21:25] Ashley James: He shares his stories.


[21:29] Eliot Marshall: Chasing the Scream because that was the one about addiction. So, Chasing the Scream is about addiction and then Lost Connection was the one about anxiety and depression. My favorite part of that book was the apple. Did you read the book, Lost Connections, did you read it?


[21:44] Ashley James: No. I did the interview.


[21:47] Eliot Marshall: He tells this story where he’s in, I don’t know, Indonesia or somewhere. He gets sick. He eats this apple and he gets sick like really, really sick. They didn’t know that it was the apple yet. So, he’s telling the story and he’s vomiting everywhere. He barely stayed alive. He’s finally in the hospital. He’s like, “Can you please just give me something for this?” They’re like, “No, we can’t because we don’t know what’s wrong yet. We need your nausea so we can help you.” Sometimes, we need our anxiety. I need my anxiety so that it can help me. It can point me in the direction that I need to go to find my power.


[22:29] Ashley James: Yes, because if you keep going down a path, like focusing on what you don’t want to have happen in the future, the anxiety gets worse and worse and worse. So like, okay I’m going down the wrong path. Let me start going down the right path.


[22:40] Eliot Marshall: Or you could drink it away, right?


[22:43] Ashley James: Sorry?


[22:43] Eliot Marshall: We can drink it away with alcohol. We can drug use it away with a whole lot of things, right. Then all we know, I think we both know that what happens is it comes back and it just keeps coming back a little worse and a little worse and a little worse.


[22:59] Ashley James: Yeah. He shared some stories about people who, when they got together as a community to support each other that their depression went down significantly. That even people who were, you know contemplating suicide stop contemplating suicide. The idea that bringing together community to support each other does so much for mental health. Things just simple like volunteering. Doesn’t have to be, it could be any kind of volunteering. It could be any kind of volunteering like volunteering at a cat shelter or a dog shelter or volunteering in a soup kitchen or whatever kind of volunteering. The fact that you, they say that the number one thing if you’re depressed, go volunteer. Be part of a community. People start to care about each other and help each other. That they just show unanimously people have less depression and less suicide. Less of being trapped inside yourself when you do things like get into community and volunteer.


[23:59] Eliot Marshall: That was my whole goal of my book. First one. So I was introduced to this lady. Her name is Erin Weed, she’s amazing. She does public speaking. I thought I was going to do the whole public speaking route. She does this thing called the Dig. She finds one word that describes you. My one word is power. So that’s why Find Your Power. But what we got to, she was like, “Man, I really don’t know if the speaking route is your way yet because 1) you curse a lot. But I think you’re amazing. And your people.” I’ve been pretty good so far. What are we, 20 minute, 30 minutes in and I haven’t done it.


[24:40] Ashley James: You’re doing a really good job. You caught yourself. There is an s word. You almost said it. I was like, smooth.


[24:48] Eliot Marshall: Yes. My wife says this about me, I’m like a fungus. I just grow on people. So, that’s why she was like, “Look, you need to start a podcast so people could get to know you. You need to write this book.” The company, she gave me this company. Man, they charge $25,000. $25,000 to write this book. I’m sitting there thinking. I’m like damn it, $25,000, that’s a lot of cash. How do you get an ROI in $25,000 for a book? Because I got to split with Amazon and this and that, right? I’m not Johann Hari. I’m not a New York Times bestseller already and all this stuff. Then I had to rethink it. I had a moment where I was like, man, what if I write just the most amazing book. What will make it so amazing is that one person will contact me and say that I saved their life. If that happen, if one person just hit me up on I I’d have Instagram or Twitter, wherever and said, “Yo, dude. I was getting ready to check it out and you made me not.” I was like, damn, I’d have to write another one then because a life is for sure worth $25,000.


[26:02] Ashley James: So did you do it with them? Did you spend $25,000?


[26:04] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. I did it. My ROI is ridiculous. Because I had gotten more than one. My ROI has been ridiculous.


[26:14] Ashley James: So you really helped save people with your book.


[26:17] Eliot Marshall: Yeah and like the whole, we found this why in the academies that I own, you know. We had this, it’s just nobody ever has to be alone. I know I teach martial arts. I teach this violent thing. I have UFC fighters. We’re trying to beat each other up. That’s what the goal of the whole thing is on the outside, on the outside. But man, what it really teaches you, what Brazilian jiu-jitsu really[y teaches you. Do you know anything about it?


[26:46] Ashley James: I studied martial arts when I was a teenager and the early 20s.


[26:51] Eliot Marshall: Okay. So, what it does, so Brazilian jiu-jitsu is a grappling art where we submit each other with joint locks. The whole position is controlled. Like a joint manipulation of a major joint like your knee or your elbow and chokes, strangulations. We get to practice at full speed because when you lock my arm out straight I can be like, “Oh man, that thing’s not going to go any straighter.” So I tap. Right? So I’m trusting you with my life and you’re doing the same for me. The choke is the same. The better you get, you get to learn how to like be in this submission holds and kind of deal with like, “So, I’m getting choked and I feel this. This is very uncomfortable but I just have to stay really calm. Because I know that freaking out is not going to get me out. So the calmer I stay right now the better I’ll be able to process how to deal with this arm around my neck. It’s not all the way locked in. Like I could still breathe and blood is still flowing through my brain. I’m okay.” How do I stay okay? But those moments. That’s really hard. It’s super hard. It takes a long time how to stay calm in that moment of being strangled. That’s what martial arts and specifically Brazilian jiu-jitsu is teaching us in my opinion is it teaches us how to stay calm in the very, very worst moments that our life is going to bring on us.


[28:19] Ashley James: Well, because your body perceives a choke hold as a threat. It wants to go into fight or flight to try to save your life. But being in fight or flight shuns the blood away from logic centers of your brain. So now you’re not, hopefully have some kind of muscle going but you really don’t have clarity of mind when you’re in fight or flight.


[28:42] Eliot Marshall: Well, everyone goes into fight or flight in the beginning. If you came into a jiu-jitsu class today, I put my arm around your neck and you’re going to be like, “Oh, God.” You’re going to freak out. Everyone just goes bananas for the first couple of years when they’re getting choked. Then they tap. You go and you start again. That’s the beauty of it though is it goes through like this human lifecycle. Like you’re born, you get to live and fight. That’s the fight and then man you die. You get choked out. Then you get to live again. Then you get to be reborn. You get to try it again. You get to try a little different this time. Like, “Okay, this time I’m going to do this.” You can see whether it works or it doesn’t work. But it’s really safe because you put your partner’s taking care of you. Like I said, his life is in your hands and your life is in hers. So, it doesn’t matter. You build this insane trust with somebody else because you have to do this really hard thing, beating each other up. But you have to do it safely. Because most of my students are not trying to be champions. We have schools littered with somebody who goes to work all day and then has two and a half kids and a white picket fence, right? Like the average American. That’s who we teach. Yeah, we have phenomenal champions as well, but who we teach is, like who we really teach, is you, Ashley. Are you married?


[30:11] Ashley James: Yes.


[30:12] Eliot Marshall: And your husband and your kids. That’s who we teach. You have zero goals of being champion. But for some reason, you keep walking in. You keep doing this really weird thing like Fight Club.


[30:24] Ashley James: You create a community. I loved my martial art family. It was so cool. We’d go out to dinner together after most workouts and hang out and huge amount of bonding. You really, really start to care for these people because you’re right. You’re putting your life in their hands. They’re putting their life in yours. You develop trust really quickly. There’s a great amount of respect. Did you start to notice, like when you dived into this community, that you were getting emotional healing from being part of a community that was so accepting of you and helped you to drop your guard?


[31:08] Eliot Marshall: So, I didn’t notice it until later. You know, I really didn’t notice it until one of my students passed away to be honest with you. He passed away. It was at the end of my stint, of my acute nine months. Let’s say, it was much greater. It was down the road. I didn’t cry yet. I hadn’t cried. I was sad but I didn’t cry. He was poor, his very poor. Their family was poor. They couldn’t afford to like give him a service or anything. So we brought them out to Colorado, because they weren’t from here. We, at the school, we just paid for everything, right. Like plane tickets, we just took care of it. So, I had to say something. I had to give a eulogy. I absolutely lost it standing up there. I was baffling, crying, sobbing buffoon. What I realized was that man, over the last two years that my students saved my life. Because I was like, “Come on man, you got to show up to teach your class. You got to show up. When you go teach that class, it’s got to be the best class possible.” Like every class has to be amazing. That was my goal through the day. That’s how I got through the day. Then just more people showed up for me, more people showed up for me. I was trying to give the most that I could. Just by them coming, they gave me the greatest gift that they could ever give me. So, they saved my life. I didn’t really realize it until like that moment, standing up there. I was sobbing. His mom was there, my students, a bunch of my students. I was a mess. I was a mess. But that’s when I realized that all we have to do is give. If we just give, even in the worst times, even in the hardest times, that’s when you got to give the most. Just give. Give to other people. What comes back to you is going to be so stupidly much better. You can’t, I don’t even know how to explain it. Like I don’t even know how to explain it.


[33:42] Ashley James: Well, you showed up for them. You kept putting, you kept getting up every day, getting out of bed, putting on your clothes. That was your motivation to keep going, right? In the hard times, was making sure that you brought your everything to the lessons that you’re teaching them. But if you didn’t have your students there for you, you weren’t having a reason to live at that point, right?


[34:09] Eliot Marshall: Right, yeah. Look, I had a great wife and kids but like they were like the root of my anxiety. Mine is all around sleep. So, I freak out with the sleep. So I was like, man I’m not going to sleep and then when I don’t sleep I’m going to go crazy. Renee is only going to put up with this for so long and then she’s going to leave me and then she’s going to take the kids. But then I’m going to go more crazy. Then I could just play this circle in my head. It was awful. Like I said, it doesn’t go away. It gets quieter but it doesn’t ever go away from me. So, I couldn’t lean on my family. That sucked, right? Because normally that’s what you do. You lean on your family and I couldn’t do that. Because they were like, the one thing my oldest would do, I think he didn’t understand it. I don’t think he knew at the time. But right when we were tucking them into bed, I would get into bed with him, I would like lay down. Sometimes I’d be like losing it. Maybe he could feel it, he would just like put his hand on my back. That always helped a little. He’s like my mini me, you know. I had to, for the most part, lean on something other than my family, my at home family. I had to really lean on my students. My mom and dad lived and my sister, they lived in New Jersey so I could lean on them a little bit. I wasn’t worried. They weren’t part of the anxiety. A lot of therapy. I go to therapy every week. Still, to this day, every week I go talk to my therapist.


[35:56] Ashley James: That is so healthy. I think e most well-adjusted people go to therapy. The old paradigm is, you know, therapy is for crazy people. It’s just like, you know what, therapy is for people who want to be mentally strong. I have a friend who said this. I guess she’s a millennial, she’s like an older millennial. But she said this on Facebook, she said, so she’s a chef. She’s a personal chef in Seattle so she like caters to people. One customer will be paleo, the next one will be vegan, the next one will be raw vegan, the next one’s like I don’t care, I just want to do delicious, the next one’s calorie restricted, the next one’s allergic to garlic. I mean it’s just like the list goes on and on. So, she has to like balance in her mind.


[36:38] Eliot Marshall: I hate this by the way. Starbucks is who did this to us. Okay.


[36:44] Ashley James: She has to balance in her mind all these different diets and really caters to their taste. Maybe one doesn’t like Indian and the other one does. So, she’s really good at that. She has a daughter who’s about four and a wonderful boyfriend. She also has a horrible commute because Seattle has really bad traffic. She really seems like she got her stuff together. She said this on Facebook the other day, “If you think I’ve got my stuff together, I wouldn’t have my stuff together for the three times a week I go to therapy.” She’s like, “There’s nothing wrong with me mentally and we need to break away in society from this idea that we go to therapy when there’s something wrong.” You go to therapy to make sure that you can keep it together. She says that that’s how she maintains an incredibly successful business and she’s an amazing mom, an amazing girlfriend. She’s got everything together because she goes to therapy three times a week. She says she would’ve exploded and probably killed everyone by now if it wasn’t for the fact that she goes to therapy. So I just, I love that. That idea that you find the type of therapy, you find the type of therapist that really jives with you and you do it because it allows you to stay sane.


[37:55] Eliot Marshall: This is how I like to put therapy. This is my best analogy. You brush your teeth every day, twice a day?


[38:01] Ashley James: I’d hope so.


[38:03] Eliot Marshall: Why?


[38:04] Ashley James: So my teeth don’t rot out of my head.


[38:07] Eliot Marshall: Okay. So if you ever get to the point where your teeth are rotting out of your head, is brushing your teeth going to do anything?


[38:12] Ashley James: No. You got to go to the dentist at the point.


[38:14] Eliot Marshall: You have to go take these drastic measures, right? You have to take these drastic measures. You’re in crisis. How about you just brush your teeth every day and I probably could guarantee you that that won’t happen.


[38:26] Ashley James: Right.


[38:27] Eliot Marshall: I go to therapy like I brush my teeth. So I can stay out of crisis.


[38:33] Ashley James: What kind of therapy because there’s so many different kinds? You know what kind you work with?


[38:38] Eliot Marshall: We did a lot of CBT. Now, cognitive behavioral therapy. Now, look for me, I just need a verbal vomit to be honest with you. Because I have a lot of people that lean on me. We have seven schools. We’re about to open our seventh school. They’re all run by my best friends. Every single one of them. I don’t do –


[39:03] Ashley James: To be the boss of your best friends can be kind of stressful.


[39:07] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. So, I’m not really the boss. I’m kind of the boss but we have like a CEO and CFO. We’re charging, we charge. We don’t do this like most martial arts schools. Like every single one of my students knows that if they need something that I’ll be there. I hope they know. If they don’t know, I hope they listen to this podcast and they know that. Well that pressure, that’s a lot of pressure. So I have go talk about that. I have to go get my feelings, how I’m feeling out. I can’t hold it in because I know what happens when I hold it in. When I hold it in, I can just play this loop in my, I caught myself again, I can play this loop in my head. Just go and go and I’ll be, you know. I can start in the North Pole and I’ll end in the South Pole and that is awful.


[40:03] Ashley James: So when you sit down and you just get to verbal vomit all the stuff that’s in your head out, after you get it all out and while you’re talking, because I bet the therapist doesn’t really say much. Do you start to really hear the patterns and hear your own limiting decision and hear. You’re like, “Oh, wow. That’s where I’m coming from. That’s interesting.” You’re practically doing your own therapy.


[40:31] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. I do a lot of my own therapy. But I need her. I can’t do it, all right, I’m sure I could. But I love her and we only talk once a week. We do not, I don’t get coffee with her. Nothing. I don’t even know when birthday is and she probably doesn’t even remember when mine is. That’s perfect. Right? That is absolutely perfect. I don’t want it differently because it will ruin what we have. Sometimes we’ll be going and then she’ll go like, “Oh, that doesn’t make, can you sake that again please?” I’m like, here we go.


[41:10] Ashley James: That’s awesome. So she’s kind of like a coach in a way?


[41:12] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. She’s a coach. She‘s this 70-year-old lady. I don’t want to talk to a dude. If I need to tale to a dude, I’m going to call one of my friends. I tried a duded and it just didn’t work. I was like, man, I’m not telling you anything. No, no. I’ll sit here and do this hour because I’m paying for it but it’s going to be the last time we talk. I just, for some reason, the book that I wrote, I need a lady. They get it out of me the best. I don’t know what it is.


[41:43] Ashley James: Well, as long as they get it out of you. It sounds like one of the key, so far what I’ve derived is, to find your power, involve community and get therapy. Does that sound about right?


[41:58] Eliot Marshall: Yes. That sounds about right. But we’re going to take a hard left turn here if you want. Everything in my life that happens to me is my fault. You can’t be a victim. Extreme ownership. You can’t be a victim. Extreme ownership. Like Jocko Willink book, Extreme Ownership, is amazing. Everything in my life is my fault and then I have it tattooed in my arm in Greek because it was first said in Greek. The impediment of action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way, Marcus Aurelius. The obstacle is the way. So, if it’s hard, amazing.


[42:40] Ashley James: I was in a lot of landmark education classes. Have you ever heard of them?


[42:48] Eliot Marshall: No.


[42:49] Ashley James: They started back in 60s. They called themselves Est and then they transformed and called themselves landmark. There are personal growth and development classes all around the world. That’s one of the first things they focus on is being a cause in your world, being responsible for your world. Not that it’s your fault. So, this beautiful woman, she’s like 6’ tall. Gorgeous African-American, long hair, always wears these amazing suits that just like, she’s always so beautiful. She stood there. I was at a talk, a landmark education talk in Atlanta, Georgia. She stood there in front of hundreds, hundreds of people and she said, “I take responsibility for the Holocaust. I take responsibility for slavery.” People are like, what? This is charged. What are you talking about? She’s like, “Just hold on. If I am responsible for who I am in the matter, then it does not have power over me.” I get to dictate how my life goes. It has no power over me.


[44:06] Eliot Marshall: Nobody has my day, Ashley. It’s mine and nobody else’s. So, I like to listen to a lot of people. One of the people I like to listen to is ET, Eric Thomas, motivational speaker, black guy. He’s like,  “Man, you’re damn right I’m an African-American man in America. You’re damn right there’s racism.’’ He’s like, “My dad left when I was a kid. I didn’t graduate high school and my mom did everything she can but she was a crack addict. So what? So what? It’s on me man. It’s on me. Of course that’s not fair.” Now, on the flip side of that, those of are who are fortunate has to do everything we can to help the less fortunate. So, I play this dichotomy. It takes, I’m glad you do long podcasts because if I just hit one side of, people are like, “Oh man that guy sucks.” It’s your fault then no. It is my job to sprinkle, I’m going to steal on Obama line here, to sprinkle as much luck dust on as many people as I possibly can. However, when I’m talking to that individual person, my job is to be like, “No, this is on you.”


[45:29] Ashley James: You’re not a victim of your circumstances.


[45:30] Eliot Marshall: You’re not a victim of your circumstances. You can’t control your circumstances. The only thing you’ve got is you. If you want to sit here and mope and cry and everything else and it’s not my fault. Man, if it’s not your fault, if it’s someone else’s fault, you’re screwed because you can’t control other people. I can’t get my wife, could you imagine for you to try to be like, you know what’s your husband’s name Ashley?


[45:59] Ashley James: Duffy.


[46:00] Eliot Marshall: Duffy. It’s amazing. I’m going to try to get Duffy to not be mad at me ever. You would either go to the loony bin, right? You would either go to the loony bin or you’re just screwed. How could you possibly do that? Man, what if Duffy wrecked the car, his mom died, something else happen and you come home and you were supposed to clean the kitchen. The day went to crap. You didn’t know. He didn’t know. The kitchen, the house is destroyed. You’re not home. He walks in. He’s mad at you. Could you imagine? Not of that was your control over that day and you’re going to try to control Duffy? Come on. You’re screwed if you want to deal with other people. It’s on you. It’s on you. You’re not a victim.


[46:56] Ashley James: It’s what we do in that moment. So your husband’s angry, it’s what we do in that moment. Do we play the victim? Because that’s not going to solve any problems at all. Do we divert lame? That’s not going to solve any problems at all. But listening and taking ownership and say, “Okay, now what? Now what can we do to solve this problem. Let’s work on it together.”


[47:20] Eliot Marshall: I was going to say, I don’t love my wife for all the good times I have with her. Like man, do you know how many good times, and I’m not talking about sex, you know how many good times I have with so many people? I have so many good times. You love them for the awful ones. Like the three in the morning, both kids vomiting. Like mad at each other. Nobody’s doing what we want to do. Then the morning comes and everyone’s still sitting there. That’s where like the sword is forged, you know. The love is forged in those moments. It’s not forged when you’re out at the best dinner ever and you’re walking holding hands at the beach and madly in love. Man, no way. I mean, sure that’s great, but that’s not when that. The sword is just molded in this hard, hard steel. In my opinion, that’s not when that happens. If you’re single, for all the single people out there right now, man, if you’re dating somebody for a week and they’re like, “Yo, let’s go to Hawaii on this amazing vacation.” You’re going to say, yes but you don’t love them, right? You don’t love them yet. So why do you love people? You love them for the hard times and that they’re there for you, the community, the connection, right? You know. So I have six rules for my kids. This is my second book, the Six Rules of Life for you and your Kids. The last rule, rule number six is we ride or die. If my brother goes down, then I go down. That’s what real love is.


[49:10] Ashley James: So you don’t let tattle tailing in the house I bet? You get your kids to help each other.


[49:16] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. I don’t listen to it, but obviously they’re children. So, it doesn’t affect the decisions that I’m going to make with what happens next. No way. Their job is to love each other more than they love me and their mom. That’s how I want it. Because they’re going to most likely and hopefully outlive both of us. That relationship has to be stronger than the one that they rely on us for. I know, right now, they rely on us for a lot. But they can’t so hard because they have to take care of each other. They do. It’s really amazing. It’s really sweet, you know. My kids were just at a birthday party, a sleepover. My 6-year-old, I have a 9 and a 6-year-old, my 6-year-old it was his first time that he was sleeping at somebody else’s house and it wasn’t the neighbor right across the street. So he thinks the neighbors across the street I mean. So we have this 1950s relationship with them. We don’t knock on each other’s doors like if I need eggs, I don’t ask for eggs. I just walk in the house, go in their refrigerator, grab some eggs. If they’re not home, I have the code to their door. I’ll unlock it and get the eggs. I won’t even have to tell them. It’s vice versa. Everything’s the same. So this was the first sleepover where it wasn’t that family. So basically his second family. He had a little trouble and his brother was there. The way it went down is he got into bed with his brother and they just slept together. His brother took care of him. All of his brother’s friends were there because it was his brother’s friend’s birthday. So, there were like seven kids there, eight kids. All of my eldest son’s age. The reason my youngest son was there was because the birthday boy has a brother who’s their age and they wanted him to be occupied and not be in his brother’s way. So it worked out perfectly but then come sleep time, he’s never slept anywhere else before especially not away from his mom and dad and especially not where his not very comfortable. They know the rule, rule number six man. They take care of each other. They have to take care of each other.


[51:40] Ashley James: That’s awesome. So we got to take care of each other but we need to take that responsibility. I like that dichotomy again. We’re 100% accountable for everything that happens in our life and we need to help those who are struggling. We need to build community. I was just thinking, I have a friend who was born with intense dyslexia. He wasn’t diagnosed just because of the time of when he was born. I think he’s about 50 now. He went through school as intense dyslexic but he was not diagnosed until two years after graduating high school. His mom is an art teacher. So his mom helped him to pour in his creative outlet into things because he had a hard time reading and writing. Of course, getting through high school not being able to learn to read and write is very, very hurt. I’m just thinking like, someone who, like you use the example of a man who is African-American whose dad left whose mom was a crack person and had a lot of crap happen. It’s like, he’s like his not of a victim of circumstances. Yes, there’s definitely bias against me, the racial bias, bias around my upbringing, right? Then my friend over here who is extreme dyslexic. Both scenarios, they could have said that they’re a victim of education system. They’re a victim of the government. They’re a victim of societies’ bias against them. They could’ve bought in the victim hood and not made a life for themselves. But they both just worked even harder than everyone else in order to grab the joy and the life that they want. You know what? They’re probably happier because it was probably harder for them and it makes it even sweeter. That’s like, where going to come back to that idea that we’re in heaven and hell at the same time. Because when you don’t have to work for something to earn it, that doesn’t actually bring happiness.


[54:06] Eliot Marshall: No, it brings nothing.


[54:06] Ashley James: It brings nothing. But when you have to work your butt off to get something that brings you the most joy ever. So, yeah, we have to work our butts off. No one has it all. It’s like someone might be a certain race but the other person has a learning disability or the other person has a physical disability. Like everyone’s got something going on. Someone has, you know, bipolar. Everyone has something. Everyone has their hell. Everyone does. It doesn’t make racism right. It’s not right. That’s how we as a community need to help.


[54:46] Eliot Marshall: And we don’t. Sorry, go ahead. You go. I just thought about something.


[54:50] Ashley James: I was just saying that we need to, we obviously as individuals need to help as many people as possible, right? Because if we don’t want a world where there’s racism anymore, then we need to be that example as individuals to help that. But everyone is going through their own personal hell. Everyone has their demons they are facing. Everyone has their struggles, right? So, if we own it and then we plug in to community and help other people and other people help us, I love that idea. Taking ownership but at the same time helping other people because we need to help. Everyone has an imbalance that they’re dealing with.


[55:32] Eliot Marshall: We don’t need to compare. Mine doesn’t have to be worse than yours. Yours doesn’t have to be worse than mine. We don’t need to do this. We are where we are. Your hell is hell right now. My hell is, I don’t need to be well, let me tell you. Let me tell you about mine was. That’s unnecessary. The last little part here I think that helps me go through my life with this dichotomy is I don’t believe in the self-made man or that term is something man or a woman. It doesn’t exist.


[56:10] Ashley James: Because it took more than one person?


[56:13] Eliot Marshall: Man. So, I mean, for example this guy Eric Thomas. He’s like the number two. He’s an amazing motivational speaker. Did he invent the internet? Because that’s what made him be able to do it. It’s the internet.


[56:33] Ashley James: Right. So someone who’s a famous author, like he didn’t invent books. Tony Robbins didn’t invent infomercials.


[56:42] Eliot Marshall: No. Did you invent the author? Did you invent the printing press? No. Because that’s what did it. Without the printing press your author, your amazing writing skills, out the window. How many millions of people, billions of people came before you who tell way better stories in a way better way but there is no such this as the printing press? But now, while you‘re alive, there’s this printing. All of a sudden you did it on your own? Come on.


[57:09] Ashley James: I love that because we often will look at these people who have really made it. They made it. Like Tony Robbins has made it. He’s like a billionaire. He has made it. He’s helped so many people. You look at him and you’re like, “I could never do that.” But that’s like the little voice.


[57:26] Eliot Marshall: Yes, yes. That might be right. Hold on. You might not be able to be Tony Robbins. You know what I’m not? I’m not Lebron James. I’m not 6’8”. I am not a physical specimen that Lebron James is. That might be what I am. That’s okay. That’s okay. But there’s something that I could be Lebron Jamesesque at. I could be amazing at something. That’s what we have to realize. We’ve got to stop this comparison. Like, man I want to be like Mike. Yeah, me too. I want to be like Mike my whole life. But it didn’t work out. So what? So what? I’m going to be better than Mike at what I do. I’m going to be amazing at Eliot. That’s what I’m going to do. I hope that my amazing at Eliot shows everyone else who’s a fat Jewish black kid growing up with no friends. I hope everyone that sees that can go, “Oh man, I could be amazing too.” Because I don’t believe personally, I don’t know we might differ here, I don’t believe in free will. I believe we are a product of our chemical makeup and our life experience. We can’t touch our chemical makeup. So, there’s medicines and things that we could do to do that. But that is what it is. However, my job is to touch people’s life experience.


[58:55] Ashley James: I’m curious. Can you explain what do you mean by we don’t have free will?


[59:02] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. So, it comes down to things like choice. We make choices all the time. Every day we make a choice. Am I going to have apple juice or orange juice, bla bla bla? Can you think of a movie for me?


[59:16] Ashley James: The Game Changers.


[59:18] Eliot Marshall: Think of another one.


[59:19] Ashley James: Rambo.


[59:20] Eliot Marshall: Okay. So, why did you think of the Game Changers?


[59:23] Ashley James: Because I was just telling my doctor about it today.


[59:27] Eliot Marshall: Okay. So, you already had that conversation.


[59:28] Ashley James: Yup.


[59:29] Eliot Marshall: Then why did you think about Rambo?


[59:31] Ashley James: I guess because the Game Changer is about a bunch of athletes and Rambo is also a muscular guy.


[59:37] Eliot Marshall: Right. So, all on the same realm.


[59:39] Ashley James: Yup.


[59:39] Eliot Marshall: Why did you make that choice? Did we free to make that choice or did it just pop in your head?


[59:45] Ashley James: I mean, I know a lot of movies. I do. But those two popped in my head.


[59:49] Eliot Marshall: It just popped and you can’t even explain to me why.


[59:51] Ashley James: I can’t, no.


[59:53] Eliot Marshall: Were you free or did it just happen?


[59:55] Ashley James: I think it just happened.


[59:57] Eliot Marshall: So, at what choices that we make in our life do all of a sudden does this innate you take over and start making that choice?


[1:00:06] Ashley James: Well, I think consciously when I catch myself –


[1:00:13] Eliot Marshall: I couldn’t have asked you a simple conscious question.


[1:00:17] Ashley James: When I have to really consciously go, okay, this is a healthier choice for me to make. So, if I’m in the kitchen.


[1:00:25] Eliot Marshall: Sometimes you eat ice cream don’t you? 


[1:00:28] Ashley James: Yeah. Because I go, okay. We’ll just do it. But it’s plant based, there’s no dairy in it because that would hurt. But yeah.


[1:00:40] Eliot Marshall: Are you a Buddhist?


[1:00:43] Ashley James: No. I’m allergic to dairy and I’m plant-based.


[1:00:47] Eliot Marshall: Right. But still, the choice, it’s really this really weird thing. Like I said, we make choices all the time but if you could –


[1:01:02] Ashley James: But who’s making the choice? Who’s making it, right? Like what’s the –


[1:01:06] Eliot Marshall: We are. We definitely are. We definitely are making that choice but we couldn’t make another choice in the moment is what no free will means to me. Because of our chemical makeup and our past experience. That’s what lets me do the whole no blame no credit thing.


[1:01:21] Ashley James: Well, you’re also stopping yourself from shaming yourself or holding on to guilt.


[1:01:29] Eliot Marshall: Shaming myself and/or others. Even like the Murderer. It helps me have a little empathy for the murderer because if I can say, ‘man, if my life was that life, that’s where I’d end up too.’ I’m not better than that guy. Now, it will be really hard for me to get there right now. It will be really hard for me to be poor and broke and homeless right now, currently. That would take some major screw ups. Is screw up a curse word?


[1:01:56] Ashley James: No.


[1:01:58] Eliot Marshall: Okay. Nice. Okay. That would take some major screw ups on my part. This would take me years to bring me to mess this up bad currently. But man, let’s rewind 20 years. Let’s go put myself in the veteran, Vietnam veteran or the Iraq veteran or the whatever war veteran. Let me live his life and let me kill some kids, possibly, and then see where I go. But we don’t like to think like that. We like to think like, no man. This you could probably handle that but we’re not talking about this you. We’re talking about a different you. A totally different you. So, that what allows me to have a lot of empathy and try to be like, “You know what, I’m not better than anyone.” At the same time, no one’s better than me.


[1:02:54] Ashley James: There’s a principle in neurolinguistic programming that everyone is doing the best they can with the resources they have available.


[1:03:06] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. You think anybody wants to be a crack addict? I know what I’m going to do today. I’m going to wake up and become a crack head. No one has ever said that. A lot of people smoke crack unfortunately, right? A lot of people smoke crack and do terrible awful things and make terrible awful decisions. They’re doing the best they can at the moment.


[1:03:40] Ashley James: What’s the advice you have for people who really want to turn their life around for people who have just come to the conclusion that the direction they’re going is not the right one for them? They see themselves going down that really dark path.


[1:03:52] Eliot Marshall: Amazing, good for you. Yes. Amazing. So, now we can start. Now we can actually start to do something. Because you’re saying, I want something different. Until you say that, nothing’s going to change. I mean everyone, probably everyone listening if it’s adults, knows somebody or maybe is that person who is an addict, right? How much talking to an addict can you do to get them to change? Nothing.


[1:04:25] Ashley: They have to be ready.


[1:04:28] Eliot Marshall: They have to want it. I know sometimes they go, ‘oh man, that’s rock bottom,’ and then nope. We don’t l know what rock bottom looks like. But once you see it, once you are lucky enough, and I said lucky enough, to get a glimpse that you want something different for your life. Now we can do it. In my opinion, the way it’s done, is with mindfulness. We have to learn to be in the moment. We have to just be still and be in the moment. The way I do that is with meditation. I meditate every day. That’s where I start. That’s what I recommend for everyone to start when somebody asks me for some help is I say, “Hey, let’s try this mediation thing.”


1:05:15] Ashley James: How did you learn to meditate?


[1:05:17] Eliot Marshall: So, religions never worked for me. It may never. I hope I’m going to come off like I’m going to bash religion here because I don’t want to. The whole sin thing doesn’t make sense in my mind. It doesn’t make sense to me. Like I was born. So you’re telling me I was born terrible? In my opinion, if you tie it back, it always ties back to some even or something that 10,000 years ago, five, whenever you choose the religion and the event that happened. Man why is that messing with me? Why am I paying that price? Do I do things wrong? Of course I do things wrong. So, the traditional Christianity and Judaism and Islam, they just don’t work for me because I can’t rationalize it out. Sometimes, the eastern religions, they go a little better for me in my head. Not so much the religion of them but the practice of them. Because you lose the self especially in Buddhism. How do we lose the self? We start losing the self by realizing literally just one single moment. I’ve been able to realize moments in my life a couple of times like where I’ve had just this, so when you fight professionally, when you walk into that cage and that cage door gets locked, there’s only you and another dude in there. You’re not thinking about anything else. Dinner is not going through that head. Nothing. My children are not going through my head. My wife and my mom, nothing. Then there’s even just more stillness. I can remember the very last fight that I had. My nickname’s the fire marshal. Then my coach, he will just call me as fire marshal. He sat down on the stool. I was probably, it was either I was tired or I was losing one round a piece. He looks at me and he goes, “All right fire marshal, we all know that this could be it for you right here.” I mean we’re in the middle of chaos. It’s chaos. A fight is just chaos. Literally, if that person were to kick my head off, they would do it, right? I just remember this piece came over me. This absolute calmness. I went out and I had the best round of my life against the best opponent I ever fought. [Inaudible] It was just this amazingness. I never got to do it again because that was my last fight. So, those moments. If we can start to realize them a little more, how do we recreate that? You recreate that by focusing on your breath, by realizing that all we have is right now and just digging deeper and deeper into that.


[1:08:43] Ashley James: I love it. That was so cool. One of my best friends is a master create yoga teacher. Create yoga is not the stretchy kind of yoga. It’s the stretch your mind kind of yoga. I’m going to hook you guys up. I’ve had him on the show before. He’s coming on again. His name is Forrest Knutson. He figured out. He lived in a monastery for several years. He was a monk. He’s been meditating since he was a teenager. He grew up in Idaho and he felt like, well everyone was drinking beer and driving trucks, he was meditating. He did not fit in. So he escaped to California and lived in a monastery for many years as a monk. He figured out a way of using biofeedback to go deeper into meditation and to go actually get into those data waves and stuff like that. So he’s all into the science of how to maximize mediation. I think that you guys would really get along. Actually, you might want to have him on your show actually. He’s so, I mean he’s meditating his entire life. What you described is really non-threatening for people who have never meditated. Okay, I’m just going to breathe and focus on the now and get that all that I have is right now. Okay. I’m just going to breathe and be in the now.


[1:10:05] Eliot Marshall: You can’t mess it up. If you sit there for 10 minutes, you did it. Yes, your thoughts go all over here and there, wherever. Yes, sure. Okay. A little stillness in your d ay. I’m reading Ryan Holiday’s new book Stillness. It’s amazing. Just have some stillness every day where you just sit there and breathe. Because our days are chaos. We’ve done this to ourselves. Society has done this. You said you have two kids. How old are your kids.


[1:10:39] Ashley James: Oh, I have one.


[1:10:41] Eliot Marshall: One, I’m sorry.


[1:10:42] Ashley James: She’s four and a half.


[1:10:42] Eliot Marshall: Four and a half. Like you’re here, you’re there, your husband, your job, your podcast, your this, your that, right? Then your phone rings, that damn cellphone. Because it never leaves you alone or did you choose to have it never leave you alone. Because you actually respond. I do the same thing. I’m as guilty as everyone. I choose to respond. One of the best things I ever did was turn that damn thing on silent. I’m not a slave to it as much. Every bit it makes like beep, beep. What’s that. Oh, a notification. Oh, Instagram. Oh, Facebook. Oh, my email. Oh, this. Oh, that. We try to say these stuff in the name of protection and security. The kids are at school so I have to have my phone on. Man, our parents didn’t have cellphone. Somehow, when I got sick at school, they found my parents. My parents came and got me. I was never stuck at school for days upon days. We do all of this in the name of security. It’s just not true. There’s not more child abductions now than there was before. So why do you have to track your kid on the cellphone?


[1:12:11] Ashley James: Did you find that your anxiety went up when you find yourself at the peak of phone notifications?


[1:12:21] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. I had to turn my phone off. Yeah, I had to stop screen time. I get 6 o’clock at night, the phone had to be done. I mean, I can do it now, I do better with it now. It doesn’t bother me as much. I didn’t have my phone on silent so every single time that thing beeped there was something for me to respond to. It’s not true. It’s just not true. Can you imagine 20 years ago? How old are you, Ashley?


[1:13:01] Ashley James: I’m going to be, I’m 39 1/2.


[1:13:03] Eliot Marshall: We’re the same age. When’s your birthday?


[1:13:05] Ashley James: March 7, 1980.


[1:13:05] Eliot Marshall: I’m July 7, 1980. Look it up. We’re like almost exact dates. A 7th. So we’re the same age, right? When you are 15 years old and somebody left the house, where did they go? They just disappeared in the ether, right.


[1:13:26] Ashley James: We just managed to find each other.


[1:13:30] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. But somehow it all works out. Mom came back with groceries and dad put them away.


[1:13:41] Ashley James: Life without cellphones was fantastic. It was weird. Every time we drive somewhere, I’m like, how did we get places without gps? I don’t remember. I don’t remember. But I remember driving to addresses that I’d never been to. How did we get there? How did we know how to get to places?


[1:13:59] Eliot Marshall: I try to do it now. As soon as I drive to a place, so I do a couple times with the gps when I go places. Then I turn the gps off and go, ‘okay, I’m going to try to remember things’ like you remember things. You should be like, okay dude. So you’re going to get to my house. After you take that left you’re going to take the third right. It’s going to be by the Shell station. You had to like do this. That’s exactly how we did it especially when we were kids and we were riding bikes.


[1:14:26] Ashley James: It’s like a whole skill that we don’t have anymore.


[1:14:31] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. It’s a whole skill. That’s important to keep. Look, I don’t want to just hate on social media and cellphones because it gives us the connection that we need. You and I, we couldn’t be doing this or have scheduled this or anything without social media and things like I’ll call. Because I call this social media and email is social media in my opinion. So, it’s not all terrible. But we need to have this balance. There has to be a little ying and yang. No victims but everything is your fault, but you got to help somebody.


[1:15:08] Ashley James: I love it. I love the constant dichotomy is great. It actually, you have to have higher thinking. You have to have developed higher mental thinking to be able to hold two opposing thoughts at once.


[1:15:22] Eliot Marshall: Because they oppose. They definitely oppose. I’m a math major. For me I think this is why getting to the religion a little bit. When it never worked there comes a point where the thought can’t be opposed. That has to just be true. That doesn’t work for me. Because everything in my life is falsifiable


[1:15:49] Ashley James: Question everything.


[1:15:53] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. Question it but you could prove it wrong to me. I wouldn’t die in the single one of my beliefs. I could be so wrong.


[1:16:03] Ashley James: Yes. You’re willing to be wrong. You’re willing to change your mind. I love that. I was so hardcore keto I don’t know three ago. Like this is the best diet in the world. I can’t believe it. A few months later, I’m like, this is really bad. What was I thinking? To be able to go, you know what, there’s some diets are really good for some people at that one point in their lives and then three months later it might be like a poisonous diet for them or a different person. It’s about finding the right diet for the right time for the needs of the person. But not buying into any dogma and so being willing to be wrong. Like I love that you say don’t die for your beliefs. Oh my gosh, people do that all the time.


[1:16:54] Eliot Marshall: Not a single one. Not to get political. I’m not going to judge you at all based on this question but are you pro-life or pro-choice?


[1:17:01] Ashley James: That’s a really, really hard question. It’s something that I’ve grappled with for a really long time. I thought when I was a teenager that I was 100% pro-life. Then I found out after my mom died my dad, the night my mom died my dad sat me down. Why he waited until she died I guess it was her wish. He said, “Do you know that you would have been an abortion? If I wasn’t pro-life…” I was like, what? My dad said to me, your mom never wanted you to know. I said to her, “No. We’re going to get married.” He completely stopped being a bachelor. He lived such a party lifestyle and he said, I love this unborn child in you and I’m going to raise her or him, because they didn’t know. He was just so, he loved life. My dad has passed since but he loved life so much and he loved people so much. He was so firm that life is so precious. That really laid an impact on me. I’m like, yeah. I can’t impose my will on anyone. So for me it’s like my body. Life is precious. I can only say pro-life in my womb because that’s the only womb I control. I wouldn’t impose on anyone else.


[1:18:27] Eliot Marshall: So the only reason I ask is because so many people, let’s just say, ‘okay, I’m pro-life but then I know that you would be pro second amendment. Then you would be pro this or pro that or against this or against that. Because we are so divided.


[1:18:46] Ashley James: Right. The second someone is pro guns. That must mean they’re this, that must mean they’re that.


[1:18:51] Eliot Marshall: That must mean they’re pro-life. If you’re pro-gun you’re pro-life. That is such crap. That is total crap that this is where we are.


[1:19:03] Ashley James: The reason why they created a two-party system, if you look at it, it’s to keep people fighting each other. If you keep the masses fighting each other they will not rise together.


[1:19:14] Eliot Marshall: Right. Because you think the other side is so terrible. If you voted for Donald Trump you are such an awful person. I can’t even be friends with you anymore. If you voted for Hilary, oh my God, her emails. We just hate each other. We just absolutely hate. Man, the day I lose a friend because of who they vote for, I have a huge problem. I have a huge problem. I’m not friends with anybody because of who they vote for.


[1:19:51] Ashley James: There was a time when I was in high school, this was in Canada, so socialized medicine –


[1:19:56] Eliot Marshall: I thought so. I thought so.


[1:20:00] Ashley James: House about. I don’t see anymore. So when I first moved here, my coworkers beat the eh out of me within one week. Every time I said eh they’d go turn on me and go b, c, d. About a week after that, it’s a habit for us to say eh. Anyways, I don’t say eh, I can’t shake the house or the about. So in Canada, I was really proud that I wasn’t afraid of shots, getting any vaccines. So I’d be the first in line. In high school, they didn’t need our parents’ permission, I got like the hep b, hep c whatever. I got a bunch of those vaccines. I got a bunch of whatever. A flu shot weren’t really big then. They were just starting to come in but I was super proud of getting them. I was first in line. I would pull up my sleeve. Yeah. Give me extra. Give me more. Give me three vaccines. Come on. I’m not afraid. I love shots. I was so pro that. Then I started to learn more and more and more about pharmaceuticals. Now, I look back, I was a completely different person than what I am now. My beliefs system, thank God I didn’t hold on to a belief system just for the idea that it was part of my identity because I have the exact opposite beliefs that I did when I was a teenager.


[1:21:24] Eliot Marshall: If I die thinking what I think right now, oh my God. Let’s just say I got to 80, if I die thinking what I think right now in 40 years, what a waste of time. What a waste of time. That means I learned nothing. It means I read no books. It means I did no study. It means I did no self-exploration. I did no growth. If I die like this, if this is where I end. Man, what a waste of time.


[1:21:56] Ashley James: I love that attitude. It’s like, ‘challenge me, challenge my belief system. Let me expand my mind.’


[1:22:04] Eliot Marshall: Please. So jiu-jitsu for me, that’s my rule number one is, me and my kids, have to jiu-jitsu because it’s ever changing. The way that you have to deal with it is ever changing. You get a live response, like in the moment. You get showed how wrong you are all the time. You have to adjust to that person. Oh, did that wrong, oh did that wrong. If you bat, when I say bat if you’re successful at 25% of the moves that you try in jiu-jitsu then you’re amazing, you’re a world champion because you’re just wrong all the time. But you get good at being wrong. You get good at adjusting. You get good at not caring about, who cares because all I do is mess up. It’s what I do better than everything else in the whole world is mess up.


[1:23:01] Ashley James: That is so cool. That concept of like if you’re actually getting it right 25% of the time you’re like a world champion. So there’s a lot of like getting it wrong and that’s okay because that’s actually good because you’re learning from each instance. I know so many people who are afraid to cook in the kitchen, are afraid to really expand their palette because you know, what comes down to it, they were never comfortable failing in the kitchen. They burnt something once, their spouse didn’t like what they cooked or whatever. It’s like this mental block.


[1:23:37] Eliot Marshall: Then they might tie their identity to it.


[1:23:39] Ashley James: Right. I’m not a cook. I’m not good at cooking.


[1:23:41] Eliot Marshall: Then they tie their ego to it. Their ego gets in the way. But if there is no self and there is no ego then how could get in the way? Right? How can it get in the way? So, if we can work on this then we can just be outside of it a little bit then maybe, possibly we can learn how to cook. Because come on, make a meal and you’re telling me you’ve never had a bad meal before. We’ve all eaten at McDonald’s.


[1:24:06] Ashley James: I was never afraid to burn things in the kitchen. I was never afraid to mess up. I was like six or seven years old, my grandmother was teaching me how to cook. She was a German Polish background so she’d perogies and shortbread cookies and this amazing chicken soup. I just loved making things in the kitchen. You know, I burnt so many things. That was just part of the process. My friends love, love eating at my place because I cook really, really healthy delicious food. But I just don’t have a fear of failure because I always am pushing the edge of the limits of what I can do. My husband’s like, “You experiment too much.” Because there’s a potential, there’s always like that fear factor. He’s looking at me, about to put the fork in his mouth, is this going to be bad, is this going to be good? I don’t know. Because when it’s good, it’s really good but I’ll serve anything even if it’s bad. So it’s just he does not know what he’s getting. I experiment. Just last night, we were over at our friend’s house. He was like, “You’re food is always good.” He looks at me. You experiment too much. I’m like, ‘That’s because Naomi only serves you the success stories. She doesn’t serve the failures.” Naomi’s like looks at him and goes, “Yeah.” We fail in the kitchen so we can learn how to make stuff better. That’s just how we succeed. But we don’t see them as failures. It’s like science and it’s an experiment. Then we go, ‘oh, less garlic, less thyme next time.’ I’m going to just do this next time or I need to set the temperature at this. It just becomes this continues ebb and flow of learning and growing the culinary skills.


[1:25:49] Eliot Marshall: There’s a saying in business. Hire slow, fire fast. That’s what you have to do because you have to realize your failure then let it go, right? I hired the wrong person, now am I going to hold on to this? Because now, again it’s going to be me who failed because I hired that person. It’s going to be me who failed because I burnt the food or I did this or I did that. Again, this all comes back to you and your ego and yourself. If we can get rid of this idea, if we can just lose this idea because we know that our ego is the enemy, then, that’s another Ryan Holiday book sorry. I steal everything, nothing is original. Somebody did it better.


[1:26:36] Ashley James: You should. Because you package it better.


[1:26:42] Eliot Marshall: I work on my spiel. I’m even doing it without cursing, look. I’ve never done this before.


[1:26:48] Ashley James: You’re doing amazing. You need to like hit the road. You need a whole show.




[1:26:56] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. We’ll get there. It’s okay. It really is okay that we fail. It’s the most amazing thing that we can do is we can fail because it’s just like courage. Courage is not, not being afraid. Courage, here comes one of my rules again, rule number four is being afraid and still doing it.


[1:27:21] Ashley James: It’s owning your fear.


[1:27:22] Eliot Marshall: It’s saying yes, I’m afraid. But you know what it’s not going to do? It’s not going to stop me. Failure is the same. Of course I’m going to fail. Man, there was this one time we were doing this thing for one of the schools. We spent $26,572.00, I remember the exact amount. It took nine months for them to build it out and then implement it. You know how fast we realized it sucked and wasn’t for us?


[1:27:53] Ashley James: I don’t know.


[1:27:54] Eliot Marshall: One week. One week. They were sitting there looking at each other going, damn it. But it’s not for us. It’s not who we are. It’s not our culture. It was so bad for us that we could see it. We had to let it go. Almost $30,000. But what would’ve been worse is just try to shove that crap down our people’s throats. What would’ve been worse is to put that out into the ether and put that out into the public so people could see that this is what we’re doing and this is how we are. That would’ve been worse because that would’ve compromised my soul.


[1:28:41] Ashley James: Or to have not taken any action in the beginning. If not done it for fear that it wouldn’t work out. Then always sit there wondering, what if I had?


[1:28:54] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. Wish I would have. What if and wish I would have are two words that I won’t say back to back.


[1:29:08] Ashley James: Unless you’re saying I won’t say them.


[1:29:09] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. But I won’t go, ‘what if this happens, what if the sun doesn’t come up tomorrow?’ All the evidence says that it will but there is this possibility. Now, am I going to live my life as what if the sun won’t come up? No, and wish I would have? I’m going to grind until the day I die.


[1:29:29] Ashley James: Awesome. It does take that conscious effort to catch yourself and go, “Oh, there I am shooting myself. Now I’m going to choose a healthier thought process.” It takes time to rewire the brain. The neuroplasticity of rewiring that brain. It does take that repetition of catching ourselves when we’re shooting ourselves and go, ‘all right, new way of being. New way of thinking.’


[1:29:56] Eliot Marshall: So there’s this competition called ADCC. It is the Olympics for grappling, for jiu-jitsu. I’ve been trying to get into this, you have to qualify or get invited, and I’ve been trying to get into this since I was 21 years old. It was the only thing in my professional career that didn’t accomplish. I got into everything else like I said. Man, this year I got in. I got an invite. At this old man age, I was the oldest guy in the whole competition. Look, there was no dreams of winning. The people that win these are 20, right? It’s like the Olympics. They dedicate their whole lives to this that I don’t dedicate. They train like I work. I train like they might actually work. If I get two hours in a day, that’s amazing. I can’t do that every day but they do. Now what got me good enough for me to be able to qualify is peace of mind. Like a different thought of how to compete. So, anyway, I get in and I have a two-time champ in the first round. It’s invite only. It’s 16 people per division. Only happens once every two years. It’s literally the Olympics. I was like, ‘you know what, I’m going to try this move right away. I’m going to sit down and I’m going to boom, I’m going to try to hit this move immediately. It’s a high risk, high reward move. I didn’t do it for the reward of it. I did it for the risk because I knew it was going to get this idea that I had to be perfect in the match out of my head right away. Immediately. I mean, look, I guess if I pulled it off I’d be on a highlight reel for the rest of my life pulling it off. I was also taking this risk that I was going to be on a highlight reel messing it up for the rest of my life. Where we landed was somewhere in the middle, more towards the bad end. It went very poorly for me. Then I’ve had to recover. I had to work my way out. Look, I didn’t win. But it got me out of the idea of I have to be perfect. Because I went into that and I was like, ‘you know what, I’m going to kill or be killed. I’m really going to go for it.’ Because I don’t want to have a boring match. I don’t want to have a match where like – right?


[1:32:32] Ashley James: You didn’t play it safe.


[1:32:33] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. If I get killed, even at the end I was like, ‘I’m losing right now.’ I was down on points. I was like, ‘I could stay right here,’ and you never want to get finished, right? That’s when you always have to tap. That always sucks. It messes with your ego. In the moment, I was like, ’okay, here I go. I’m going to take this risk.’ Because the only way that I could actually possibly still win is to now take this next major risk of possibly getting finished. I happen. I got finished because the guy’s amazing. He’s a multiple, he’s like a 5-time, 6-time world champion. So, it is what it is. I’m 40, right? But I was super proud of myself for keeping the kill or be killed mentality all the way through the match. I blew it immediately. I didn’t go ten seconds without an absolute epic fail. Then it had no bearing in the match. I recovered to the point where it was mutual again. The score still stayed 0-0. So, yeah. Fine.


[1:33:42] Ashley James: That is so sweet. I love recovery stories. I love it.


[1:33:47] Eliot Marshall: That’s what we have to do.


[1:33:48] Ashley James: Shaking it off and like mentally recovering is a skill. Like how quickly can I bounce back? Another landmark forum experience after my mom died¸ I went and retook landmark forum which is like their foundation weekend course. That’s the course where they have you get that I’m the cause of everything in my world. People are fighting it. They’re like, ‘what about rape?’ they’re bringing out all the really, really dark stuff. By the end of the course they get it. That it’s taking responsibility so that nothing else have power over you. Then when you’re in that mentally position, you position yourself as being responsible for everything in your world. Then you are at cause in your moment. Every moment you’re at cause creating your world. So a victim of rape is no longer a victim of rape. They’re being a cause in their world. They get to decide how they move forward with their life and not allow that act that happened to them to continue to affect them years later. They’re going to seek healing.


[1:35:02] Eliot Marshall: How long are you going to take that person rape you?


[1:35:04] Ashley James: Exactly. It’s not condoning it. It’s bad. It’s horrible. It’s wrong. They should all be castrated. Seriously, maximum penalty. The person who had it happened to them, they have the power to become empowered. To find their power, right? So, anyways, that’s like the first step in the forum. So, it’s a freaking heavy weekend. I went. I would drove all the way to Montreal with a few of my friends. One of the oldest forum –


[1:35:37] Eliot Marshall: Where in Canada are you from?


[1:35:38] Ashley James: I’m from Toronto. Yeah. I’m from North York. One of the oldest forum leaders who have been doing it for like 30 years, I asked him. I’m like, ‘You know, I just lost my mom a few months ago and I’m really depressed. I’m grieving really heavily and I want to, I just couldn’t get out of this loop. I want to make sure I’m grieving healthfully.’ He told me a story. He goes, ‘You know, I was leading a landmark forum,’ he was leading this class for hundreds of people. It was a really big class. They only had like 15-minute break. So he comes out and it’s his break and he’s drinking some water or something. He gets a phone call and his brother had just died of a heart attack. His mind just starts going off. He goes, ‘I thought about our last phone call. I can’t remember if I said I love you or not. I didn’t say I love you. We had a fight. It just started vicious cycle over and over again.’ He started feeling guilty and shame and blaming and agree. His mind was just messed up like anyone would be to get the news that their brother had died. He only had 15 minutes to recover and go back on stage because the lives of these people are at stake, right? They’re all there to get a transformation for their life. He can’t just check out mentally. So he had to like seriously have a moment just like you did where it’s like he had to recover. So he caught himself. This is what really hit me is that even the healthiest people in the world, the healthiest people in the world still would catch the cold once in a while. But it’s how fast their body heals. It’s how fast their body gets over it. So they might have a fever, go to bed with sniffles and wake up the next day and be totally fine. Whereas the average person is in bed for a week or two, right? It’s not that we’re invaluable. It’s not that you get so good at personal growth that you never fail or never slip up. It’s how fast you recover. So he share the story of how he was able to recover from that. He said to himself, he just got in touch with what so, with reality. What is real in the now? He said to himself, ‘I miss him. I love him. I’m sad,’ about his brother. I can’t remember his brother’s name. He’s like, “I miss Tom. I love him. I’m sad. I miss him. I love him. I’m sad.’ Any other thought was not what so, it wasn’t real. It was a made up story. He didn’t know I loved him or it’s my fault. I should’ve done this. I should’ve done that. All of that was just tripping him up. But if had just gotten in touch with the what so, what so is I miss him, I love him, I’m sad. That’s what kept him present in the moment. Then he recovered. Then he got back on stage and he led an amazing weekend for those people. Some people might say he wasn’t grieving healthfully or he was like shoving it down. He wasn’t ignoring his feelings. He was owning them. He wasn’t pushing them away. He is in them. He went through them just like you said, go through it. He went through it. He owned. He recovered. He said, eventually the sadness went away. Then he just said, ‘I miss him, I love him.’ He said, ‘he’s gone. I miss him. I love him. I’m sad. He’s gone. I miss him. I love him. I’m sad.’ Then eventually it was, ‘he’s gone. I miss him. I love him.’ That really helped me with my grieving because it’s like, yeah I had so much going on in my head about blaming myself. I mean my mom died of cancer. I was 22 years old and yeti felt like it was my fault or I could’ve done so. If only I had done this. If only I had done that, right? So I had to own what so and then really get all that stuff that’s not so is not real and stop holding it against myself. I love that your story shows that in the most intense situation. You chose to do something completely ballsy and you’re totally okay that it messed up because you recovered really quickly mentally and it’s all mental, right? Because your game is in your head. So you mentally recovered and you physically recovered and then you like shook it off and you kept fighting.


[1:40:06] Eliot Marshall: So for me, we have to practice, right? We have to practice for when the big moments come. Like when your mom dies and your brother dies. Because let me tell you, you know when it’s not a big moment? Who the world champion is. What’s your favorite sport?


[1:40:25] Ashley James: Hockey?


[1:40:27] Eliot Marshall: Hockey, who won the Stanley cup in 2011?


[1:40:30] Ashley James: Oh geez, I have no idea. I’m not great.


[1:40:33] Eliot Marshall: Hold on. I love jiu-jitsu. I love jiu-jitsu. Guess what, I don’t remember who the world champion was either. Okay. Because how can it actually matter? If we don’t know who the very, very, if we have to Google who the very, very best was at said activity in that year, at that moment, then it can’t really actually matter. So what is the point of this? The point of this is for me to go out there and practice being in the moment. So even if I would’ve won that match it still wouldn’t have mattered because what’s going to matter is my kids going to need me at some point. My kids going to need me maybe on my worst day. When my mom dies or something and I’m going to have to show up. I still going to have to show up. So that’s the practice that I’m doing. These tough moments that I choose to put myself in, come on. You think somebody cares who wins a barely legal street night on a Saturday night? No. Nobody cares. Because if they did they would remember them all but we sure do remember the times when we really needed somebody. So those are the moments I’m practicing for. Those are the moments that I’m always practicing for. That’s why I choose to do really hard stuff. I like hard stuff. I like working out really intensely. I know about the physical benefits. Yes. I like the mental benefit.


[1:42:08] Ashley James: I actually got to hang out with Marilu Henner a few times. She’s an actress. She was in Taxi. She was on the Apprentice. I thought she was really good on the Apprentice. She has this crazy ability that she has photographic memory but you can tell her what happened on May 7, 1982. She will tell you everything that happened, or you could say to her if you’ve met her a few times, tell me every date we ever like every period in time we ever met each other. She just remembers dates and what happened on each day. She’s a really cool public speaker. We had an opportunity to hear her a few times. We were actually in Cancun with her at one point. She has this thing where she says, ‘Choose your heart.’ She has a whole spiel obviously that comes with it. But the point is choose your heart. Don’t sit there and worry about stuff and try to stay safe and try to keep comfortable, right? Because the more we try to stay safe and keep comfortable the more uncomfortable and unsafe we’ll be down the road.


[1:43:32] Eliot Marshall: God, it’s so terrible. It’s so terrible what we do though, right? It goes back to our kids. You know, all the stuff we do to make our kids safe.


[1:43:40] Ashley James: Then we’re just making them unsafe because we’re making them so naïve and so sheltered.


[1:43:45] Eliot Marshall: So sheltered. I read this great book. It’s called the Coddling of the American Mind by Jonathan Haidt. It’s got this amazing line in it. ‘Are you preparing your kid for the road or are you preparing it the road for your kid?’ We know we can’t prepare the road for the kid because we don’t know what the road looks like. You can’t prepare it. It’s impossible. So you have to prepare the child. You have to prepare the child and you. Where we blow this is that our kids’ failures are our failures. That their sucking at soccer is us or their bad great at school. So what did we do? We stopped keeping score and we stopped giving them grades. You’re child’s four, I don’t know how many sports she plays yet or if she’s into them. But let me tell you, the no scoreboard thing is terrible. It’s awful. You should see what happens. Because we have to options with the no scoreboard thing. If we don’t want to keep score, then we also have to teach our kid not to count. Because if they can count, they’re going to keep score. Since there’s not a board that says the score, they scream the score out. God forbid it’s a blowout. ‘It’s 42-2.’ Because they’re counting. If the actual 42-2 is just right on the board, they wouldn’t count.


[1:45:22] Ashley James: And rob it in each other’s faces?


[1:45:24] Eliot Marshall: No. it seems like they’re robbing it in each other’s faces when they’re screaming 42-2 but they’re not. They’re just counting. They’re just counting. It seems that they’re bragging but they’re six and they’re five so you practice what you’re learning, right? You’re learning how to count and stuff in school so that’s what you’re doing. Now, look. If you just put the scoreboard up there, they wouldn’t do it. It wouldn’t seem like bragging. They wouldn’t be screaming at each other. None of this would be going on. We could actually talk to our kids about, ‘hey Canan,’ that’s my oldest,  ‘this is how you deal with winning by that much. Hey Canan, when you’re on the other side of 42-2, I know that feels really bad. So now we’ve got some chances that we can make. So we can either quit and give up or we can try to learn how to play basketball better. Now look, I won’t even say quitting and giving up isn’t your thing because maybe you have two left hands and you can’t dribble and athletics is just not right for you. Maybe art is or maybe this is. But let’s go find what you’re great at. That’s okay. I’m find with it. We’re not quitting this season. You chose to play basketball so we’re sticking out. I get it. Not for you man. So, I know I loved basketball but that’s okay that you don’t. What are we going to do for you to be amazing? This has nothing to do with me.’ So all of this prepare your kid for the road stuff it’s all back on us. We just can’t handle our kids sucking.


[1:47:04] Ashley James: It’s robbing them of how learning through failure. It’s robbing them.


[1:47:11] Eliot Marshall: Have you learned any other way?


[1:47:13] Ashley James: No. I do not learn from success. I learn from failure and then I tweak and I go, ‘oh that worked. Okay, keep doing that.’


[1:47:20] Eliot Marshall: How’d your child learn how to walk?


[1:47:21] Ashley James: Right. A lot of wobbly.


[1:47:23] Eliot Marshall: He just failed. A lot of wobbly, right? It does this rock thing. It does shoulder to shoulder, on its back and then it can roll over. That took a couple of months. Then he or she does this thing where they start to get up on their hands and knees and they slip out. Then they do this thing where they get up on their hands and feet and they rock back and forth like they’re getting ready to crawl. They do that for a couple of weeks, right? This was my two anyway. Then they crawl and then they fall over. Then they get back up. Then they start to pick themselves up on objects like on couches. This is where things get really bad because now they’re about to be mobile. You can’t just put them down anymore. They won’t be in the same spot when you get back. Then they start crawling or walking along a couch. Then they get really brave. They get really, really brave. They let go of the couch and then what happens? They fall. It doesn’t stop them. Somewhere along the line we do something to them that stops them with their learning that they think that this doing poorly is really, really bad. It’s just not. It’s just a lesson. Man, sometimes you got to say, ‘Hey Johnny, that wasn’t good.’ You cannot say, ‘Johnny, that wasn’t good,’ and then walk away from them. You have to say, ‘Johnny, that’s not good. I’m going to be here with you until we figure out either how to make it good or how to change directions. But I’m not leaving you. I’ll never leave you. So let’s do this. Which one?’



[1:49:08] Ashley James: I love it. I love it. Own failure. Be excite about it so we can learn it. Learn from it and grow from it and be willing to push ourselves outside of our comfort zones to be okay with the failure. I know it sounds cliché, but it’s like that is the most joy you’re going to get. I played softball and our team came in dead last. I mean I don’t think we won any games. I look back at that so fondly. I had so much fun. We just tried our hardest, you know. We weren’t crying. We weren’t butt hurt. We were hitting the balls as much as we could and running as fast as we could. We just really sucked and that’s okay. I look back on the times I played softball and I had so much fun. I noticed I was a bit better at the end of the season, right? If we probably kept going year after year we would’ve improved. It’s okay. It’s okay to not be perfect. It’s okay to burn something in the kitchen. It’s okay to not be able to run the marathon.


[1:50:27] Eliot Marshall: Then there’s Tiger Woods, right. There’s Tiger Woods who had an overbearing dad who pushed him into this. I’m reading this chapters in Stillness. His dad was intense. There’s a Tiger Woods chapter. I mean his dad in his swing while he was swinging he would through change at him and hit him with things. He called him a little n word. ‘You little n word.’ He made Tiger into this stone cold killer that Tiger Woods became. But it wasn’t enough. It wasn’t enough. Tiger is probably the best golfer that’s ever played. He’s for sure made the most money and what happened? It just fell apart. It fell apart. How did he get it back? Because he just got it back in the masters this year, right. He went a decade without winning a major. What changed? He changed. He started to love people. He started to love the crowd. He used to hate the crowd. Hate them. Hated the other players on tour because that’s what his dad made him into being. Then he saw how wrong it was. He reconciled with his ex-wife. I don’t mean reconciled like they’re back together. They’re not back together. They’re able to co-parent, which is what’s more important than that, right? That’s the biggest thing that that guy has to fix. That relationship with his ex-wife so that they could actually be good parents together. Because there’s going to be times, who’s going to be at the graduation? Mommy or daddy? Man, that’s awful for a child. That’s what he fixed. I mean this story to me is one of the most amazing stories there is. Then he was able to come back. He was able to do what he did at the masters. Look at what it did for us. It’s the first time since September, since 9/11, right? Since 2001 that every single person watching something agreed. On Sunday, everyone wanted Tiger to win. That’s what was amazing. Because damn, we love a success story. We love the success story of Tiger. But man, do we love even more to watch someone fall and then rise again. That’s the Jesus story. We love it. We eat it up. We love to watch it come true, He couldn’t have done that without totally breaking himself down. That’s what he have to do. Then look what it did for us. It was amazing. People that don’t even like golf were sitting in bars watching Tiger Woods cheered like they’ve been cheering for him since 1997. Because it’s amazing. It gave you some hope that as a 40-year-old that you could reinvent yourself. That it’s not over.


[1:53:59] Ashley James: Brilliant. It’s never over.


[1:54:02] Eliot Marshall: It’s over when the dirt comes on top. My eyes closed.


[1:54:08] Ashley James: When they put you in the ground, then it’s over.


[1:54:09] Eliot Marshall: It’s over you know. Until that point, we need to thank the people that came before us and live for the people that our coming with us. For me, I just did something that was really interesting. Like I said, my grandparents survived the holocaust but I’m not religious. If you ask me what I am, I’m Jewish because of them, because of their suffering. Last Wednesday was Yom Kippur and you’re supposed to fast on Yom Kippur. I’ve never fasted before. But man, I felt the need to fast and I’m going to fast every year on Yom Kippur until it ends and it’s for them. It’s to pass on my family’s tradition. I told this to all of my students, I told all my students on Tuesday night because it was Tuesday night to Wednesday night. I said, ‘look guys, I’m going to fast tomorrow because my grandparents survived the camps. What happened to my grandfather while in the camps, he swore that when Hitler came, I know we started with this, that his family was always going to get out. He was going to make it so that we would be okay. His blood would always be okay. That man saw everyone die. Like when the ghettos were raided, that was it. That was the last time he saw any of his family. He had nine brothers and sisters, a mom and dad, everything. That was done. That was the last. It was over. He then saw his wife die before him. His oldest child, my uncle died before he died. Then he died finally. So the blood that he didn’t see die was my mom and me and my sister. I can remember my whole life, he just wanted me to do something like financially secure. Do this, do this, right? Like so that I could be be my own boss. He fought me the whole way in this martial arts thing. I always said I was going to open my own martial arts school. He fought me the whole way. Then, when he was dying, I went and took my oldest son because my oldest son was a baby at the time and I took him to see him. So that he could see him before he died. He got to meet him. My wife took my baby and left. It was super obvious that this was going to be it. This was going to be the last time that I saw my grandfather. We started crying, my mom started crying. He looked to my mom and he said, “Just give him whatever he wants. Give him whatever he wants when he wants it.” So, he died with a little bit of money on him, look, just like a little bit. What it did was that my mom did it. My mom gave me that money and that’s what opened my first school to let me buy into that school. I don’t have anything in my life without that, without his sacrifice. Without his whatever it is that he did. So, I’m going too fast. I’m not fasting every year because I believe in any of that stuff. I’m fasting for them. Again, it comes back to people. Help people and pass it along. Because what he did for me, I can’t pay that back, right? I can’t pay that back. It goes back to everything that we were talking about, right? That terribleness of the concentration camps. What it lead to was this amazingness that I have with my jiu-jitsu schools. That’s what ended up saving my life, right? That’s what saved my life when it went dark for me. The awfulness. So, when we talk about the holocaust and things like that. We’re talking about ownership. He just said, ‘look, of course it’s not his fault.’ He’s going to make it so that nobody, his blood doesn’t ever have to deal with this again. Now I get to have this amazing thing that I have. This community of martial arts. It’s more than a community of martial arts. It’s a community of family where man, I get to employ my best friends. They don’t have jobs, they have careers. They have careers. They’re never going to go do anything else unless they want to. They’re going to be able to take care of their families, you know. That’s all because of this awful thing that was the holocaust. That’s why all of this happens. So, for me a little bit of suffering and a little bit of sitting back, realizing that one day a year, I can handle that.


[1:59:03] Ashley James: You said you can’t pay him back but you can pay it forward


[1:59:06] Eliot Marshall: The only thing I can do is try to make more people be as lucky as I was from that moment. Everyone that comes in contact with me, I just want them to be so lucky. I want them to be like, ‘God man, I’m going to find my power.’ Because look, from the holocaust to here. You can draw the line. You can draw the line of my family from one of the most awful things that’s ever happened in the history of the world to where we are today. To where I am today. It’s a straight line. You don’t even have to make a turn.


[1:59:43] Ashley James: I love it. That’s brilliant. Thank you so much Eliot Marshal for coming on the show today and sharing some sage, sage wisdom with us. It’s been a real pleasure hanging out with you today. You’ve given us a lot to chew on.


[2:00:02] Eliot Marshall: Just hey, you can do it. You can do it. If you’re one of the ones suffering, just know you’re not alone. If you’re not one of the ones suffering, go make someone’s life better. Just watch what happens. Don’t worry about your life. If you’re not suffering, then man, your life’s doing pretty good. So go make someone else’s life better and then now we’re talking. Thank you so much. I mean, I love this two-hour thing because we got to really talk.


[2:00:39] Ashley James: Yes. Awesome. It’s such a pleasure having you on the show Eliot. You’re welcome back anytime. This was great. Of course the links to everything Eliot Marshal does, his books and his podcasts are all going to be in the show notes of today’s podcast, Eliot, is there anything that you’d like to say to wrap up today’s interview? Any final homework that you want to give us.


[2:00:56] Eliot Marshall: I would like you to give me some homework. Is that okay?


[2:01:00] Ashley James: Oh my gosh, I have homework for you. Are you ready it?


[2:01:02] Eliot Marshall: Yeah.


[2:01:03] Ashley James: I was going to do it when we’re done recording. I’m going to hook you up with my friend Forrest Knutson. His website is That Yogi Guy. He has a ton of videos on YouTube. Really entertaining because he wants to obviously people to actually watch them. So, he makes this entertaining videos teaching create yoga, which is again not stretchy yoga but like mind stretchy yoga. So, I’m going to hook you up with Forrest. You should chat with him. He loves teaching people how to make meditation even deeper and fast and even better at it. Then I’m going to put you in touch with some of my content for eliminating anxiety because these tools, these neurolinguistic programming tools are outstanding when it comes to just bending the mind so it focuses on what you want instead of what you don’t want to get to the root cause of anxiety. The last thing I was going to turn you on to, because a lot of people get really good results with this, I’m sure you take supplements and all that. Magnesium is the most important mineral in the body for everything. It has 1,800 processes, enzymatic processes they’ve figured out that the body needs magnesium for. So it’s more important than calcium but when we’re deficient in it, which a lot of people are, we actually can have physical anxiety and be in stress response easier. You talked about sleep. People who use this magnesium noticed better sleep, deeper, more restful sleep. So people who are deficient magnesium, I mean it’s over 200 symptoms of magnesium deficiency but sleep problems is one of them. Anxiety is another. So, it’s really hard to get enough magnesium orally because of how the gut works. It just goes out the other end really quickly. So, IV has been sort of the best way but no one’s going to go into a doctor’s office every week and like go get intravenous magnesium. That’s just not economical. The other way is this concentrated liquid from the Zechstein Sea in Scandinavia that contains not only magnesium in its most absorbable form for the body, but also other co-factors. So, you take this concentrate and you put it in a little water and put your feet in it. You soak for an hour and you could be like doing a podcast right now with your feet soaking. I always do it when I’m doing something else too. I’m in the desk or I soak when I’m in the sauna. It’s not like you’re sitting there going, ‘darn, I have to soak and I have nothing else to do.’ That doesn’t ever have to happen. You could always do it while you’re doing something.


[2:03:47] Eliot Marshall: We don’t live in that world anymore.


[2:03:48] Ashley James: We don’t live in that world, no. People have done, it’s thousands of people, have done the blood test called the magnesium RBC test where they their magnesium before and after 30 days soak challenge. Their magnesium goes up to healthy levels. So they’ve done all kinds of test on it. But it’s really, really cool. So, I’m going to hook you up with the magnesium soak that I love. 3, Bowen, who I’ve had on the show several times, created it after she was 78 pounds, having 30 seizures a day in a wheelchair. She tells her story. It’s really amazing. Magnesium was a major major part of her recovery. That’s why she created the company. The company she was sourcing from, they started their quality went down so she decided to make her own. So, she gets it from the Zechstein Sea. She sells it in liquid form, not in the flake. People go, ‘You could save money by using flakes.’ It’s not the same. They’ve chemically processed it. They’ve taken a lot of the co-factors out. It does not raise magnesium RBC levels the same. So people get a really, really positive difference. So, I’m going to hook you up with Kristen Bowen. Her website is That’s a mouthful.


[2:05:00] Eliot Marshall: Now, it’s okay. I’m stoked too. I’m stoked


[2:05:02] Ashley James: The listeners get a discount, LTH, gets the discount. I’m going to make sure. I’m going to send an email and hook you up with Forrest and hook you up with Kristen Bowen. Then I’ll send you some links for the free you anxiety. I have some interviews where I teach some of my stuff. Anyone listening that wants to know for more information, Forrest Knutson who’s an amazing meditator. He’s The magnesium soak, I’m totally, totally obsessed with. I’ve been doing it over a year. My son for example, they’re hyper. They’re three years old, right. He was three years old at the time. He’d always fight us to go to sleep. He’s an Aries if you know astrology. He’s just like, he’s all about being in the now and being awake 24/7. We put him through the magnesium soak in his bath. It’s not like he knew. It’s a blind test. He didn’t know we put it in his bath. He started to tell us he was ready for bed. He’s like, ‘I’m ready. Could we go read some books? I’m ready for bed.’ We’re like, ‘what?’ So it really, really works. A lot of my listeners said it really helped. So, that’s, coupon code LTH. The third thins is on my website, there’s a tab at the top that says, Anxiety or Free Your Anxiety or you can type anxiety into the search bar. You can get all my episodes where I teach. Then I have a class. It’s only a few hundred dollars where I teach 21 lessons between 30 and 45 minutes long, 21 of them. It’s just like for a few hundred dollars. It’s everything I’ve taught since 2005 with all of my clients who have amazing success with eliminating anxiety. So, those are my three pieces of homework I’m going to send you some emails.


[2:06:53] Eliot Marshall: I appreciate it. I was going to ask for it. I wanted to bring it up that way. Yes, I do take Lexapro. I’m trying to come off of it. We talked about it beforehand. I’m just trying to come off of it just to see what the work that I’ve done over the last three years has been like. Just a test.


[2:07:12] Ashley James: Test yourself and go. How far have I come?


[2:07:15] Eliot Marshall: Maybe the Lexapro allows me to really go far. That’s okay too. I’m okay with going back on in I have to. So I’m kind of in the middle of it. It’s not the most comfortable thing because there are some definite side effects to it. I would like to still keep going for a little bit and keep challenging. We talked about it offline but I think it’s really important for people to know online too. You are not suffering alone. Whatever you do, there’s this huge stigma around SSRIs and things like that. If you need you need it.


[2:07:50] Ashley James: It’s better to be on it and be alive and be thriving than to not be on it and to like go somewhere very dark.


[2:08:00] Eliot Marshall: We only get one chance at this beautiful thing that we call life. Man, to go through it. Yes, I do love suffering, but to go through it truly suffering like fighting everyday just to be alive. That’s not living guys. So, if you need help, get help. Please, in whatever way you need to. Thank you for the homework. I appreciate that.



[2:08:26] Ashley James: Awesome. Well Eliot, it’s going to be fun having you on the show in a year or two. You can let us know the follow up. How has it been? I like doing that with guests where they come back and they share like, ‘all right. Well I got off that med and this is what happened then. Then I wrote my book.’ Whatever. You’re going to share the updates because we’re never done learning.


[2:08:48] Eliot Marshall: Maybe I won’t be off.


[2:08:49] Ashley James: Maybe you won’t be off.


[2:08:51] Eliot Marshall: Maybe I won’t be off. That would be okay too. There’s no attachment to that, right? Everyone’s truth isn’t the same. So it’s going to be okay either way.


[2:09:04] Ashley James: I want to hear the update to your continuous journey because you’re constantly striving to grow. So, that’s always going to be an adventure to have you back.


[2:09:13] Eliot Marshall: Are you on Instagram Ashley?


[2:09:14] Ashley James: @learntruehealth


[2:09:18] Eliot Marshall: @learntruehealth. I’m going to follow you in a second. Oh man, I really enjoyed this. Thank you very much.


[2:09:25] Ashley James: Awesome. Thank you. It’s been such a pleasure having you on the show today and can’t wait to keep in touch with you and have you back on the show and have you share your continuous journey with us.


[2:09:38] Eliot Marshall: Sounds great Ashley. Have a great night.


[2:09:40] Outro: Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition? And how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity. Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business and support people in their success? Do you love helping people?

You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program. And it really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over a hundred dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition. But from a standpoint of how we can help people to shift their life and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health. I definitely recommend you check them out. You can Google Institute for Integrative Nutrition or IIN and give them a call. Or you can go to and you can receive a free module of their training to check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in. Be sure to mention my name Ashley James and the Learn True Health podcast because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program. And I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information.

We need more health coaches. In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctors’ offices, you can work in hospitals. You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help your local schools shift their programs to help children be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success and their health goals. There are so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach.

So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. Mention my name, get the best deal. Give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month. So you’re going to want to call them now and check it out. And if you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.

Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price? For high-quality supplements and to talk to someone about what supplements are best for you, go to and one of our fantastic true health coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are the highest quality and the best price. That’s That’s Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program.

Get Connected With Eliot Marshall!







Book by Eliot Marshall

The Gospel Of Fire

Recommended Reading

The Obstacle Is The Way by Ryan Holiday



Oct 15, 2019

Listen to all past episodes with Eric Thorton:



Microdosing Psilocybin Mushrooms Therapy



  • Microdosing psilocybin mushrooms for healing wounds and trauma unresolved by therapy
  • Where to find a doctor that support psilocybin mushrooms
  • Where to buy psilocybin mushrooms
  • Psilocybin mushrooms is not legal in every state or country
  • Factors to consider in using mushroom
  • Microdosing psilocybin reduces bipolar disorder and schizophrenia
  • Predatory energy
  • Looking at food and nutrients from a different perspective
  • Natural healing starts and will be with you for the rest of your life
  • Corporate thought forms
  • How important food is to our brain


In this episode, Eric Thorton will share with us today about microdosing psilocybin mushrooms and how it helps the body to heal physically, mentally, and emotionally. We will also discuss where to find doctors who support these mushrooms and where to find them.


[0:00] Intro: Hello, true health seekers. And welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health podcast. Today we have back on the show Eric Thorton. He has been a repeat guest. What an interesting, interesting guest he is. If you haven't heard of my episodes with Eric Thorton, I urge you to go back and listen to them. You can find all of them easily by going to and typing in Eric Thornton. And all of the episodes that we've been in will pop up on my website.

You may never have been to my website,, because most people do listen to the podcast through their podcast app. So gives you a lot of resources that you don't have access to when you listen through any of your podcast apps. So you can you can keep listening to your podcast app but be sure to check out because we transcribe our episodes now. We've been doing that for the last few months. Thank you so much to the transcriptionist listening to this right now and typing everything I say. I am truly grateful. It takes a lot of work to transcribe our episodes. But because so many of the listeners kept telling me that they would listen to episodes two or three times and take notes so that they could implement all of the wonderful learnings. I just knew that it would be helpful to you if we transcribed. So please go to and take advantage of the fact that we transcribed the episodes.

Also, there's some great resources there. I created a seven day course, a free course with Naturopaths that I just love. We filmed that here at our house and put those videos together for you. They're wonderful foundations of health videos. And it's all free. It teaches you some great information. And that is right on the front page so sign up for that.  Lots of great goodies on my website so check it out.

And you'll want to get on my email list because some time very soon I'm going to be launching a new program that will support you in your health in such a wonderful way. You're going to love it. And your whole family will love it as well. It's going to be just - I want to tell you more but I'm going to wait until we get closer to launch before I tell you. So this is just a little Easter egg right now letting you know that something really exciting is around the corner. And I can barely contain myself. And since you love this show, you're going to absolutely love it. I'm very excited to launch it for you.

So join the Facebook Group. Come join the Learn True Health Facebook Group for updates. Follow us on Instagram, Learn True Health, @learntruehealth. Follow us on Facebook. And also join the email list, go to and join the email list so that you can get updates when really cool things happen. I will let you know. Including the very exciting program I'm about to launch for you.

Enjoy today's interview. It's such a unique topic. It's so cool to explore these wonderful, unique perspectives. Thank you so much for being a listener. And thank you so much for sharing these episodes. And I have a feeling you're going to be sharing this episode with someone because it's quite interesting and remarkable. This concept of microdosing psilocybin mushrooms to be able to heal mentally and emotionally. And so we explore all that in today's interview.

Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I'm your host, Ashley James. This is Episode 386.

We're back here with Eric Thorton. We were able to figure out the audio issues from the last episode. So today we're sounding so much better than last time.



[3:52] Eric Thorton: Great to be here.



[3:53] Ashley James: Yeah. Great for me to be here, too, in your healing studio here in Cottage Lake, Washington. It is always a pleasure to be here and join you for another very interesting interview. And today is going to be -



[4:06] Eric Thorton: A little out of this world.



[4:10] Ashley James: A little out there, man. A little out there. When you first shared with me that clients of yours are using small doses - microdoses -



[4:19] Eric Thorton: Microdoses, yes.



[4:20] Ashley James: - of the psilocybin mushrooms. Psilocybin mushrooms, the psychedelic or magic mushrooms but microdoses under the care of a physician that they're having outstanding results in healing deep trauma - deep wounds and wounds and trauma that were unable to be resolved in any other therapy.



[4:49] Eric Thorton: Including here.



[4:50] Ashley James: And so your guides shared with you, right?



[4:54] Eric Thorton: Yes, I did.



[4:54] Ashley James: So yeah, I'd love for you to just kind of take us back to that moment when your guides first said, "Hey man. You need to do some shrooms."



[5:03] Eric Thorton: First of all, I've never done shrooms. So I was a little shocked. But I was working with a client who had done shrooms, just sitting talking with the client. And the guide to go, "You need to do that." And I literally - I was like - so they call that gobsmacked. I was speechless. It got me like, "Really?" And they go, "Yes. That will really help you out. You have some deep stuff that you've seen but you can't get to." And I go, "Okay. So if you recommended it." So then I found out the procedures and finding a doctor that did this and went to him. And we did this microdosing. I had five major breakthroughs, major breakthroughs, including one where I got - my little brother died when I was eight and I lost all my memory of that. I stuffed the memory so it was less painful. And so I didn't have any of the memories from eight backward. And they all came back to me. Every single memory. Including down to, literally, the smell of things. And it's all there. I can access any moment at any time. I was - I guess the word I used earlier, I was gobsmacked with that too. So anyway, so then I mentioned it and clients started to go, "Oh, yeah. Done that. Done that." I can find places and do their thing. Some recommended the doctor.



[6:35] Ashley James: When you said find places and do the thing, what do you mean by that?



[6:39] Eric Thorton: There are persons on their own. They can - I recommend the doctor and they've found places to get the doctor recommendation go to them. And then they found other places to buy the psilocybin in microdosing amount.



[6:57] Ashley James: So like Colorado where it's legal now, and Canada. Many of the states and many countries, it's not illegal even in micro doses. So we're having a hypothetical conversation right now because we are talking about a controlled substance for many listeners. We're depending on where they're located.



[7:16]  Eric Thorton: And I can't recommend that. I can recommend the doctor. But I can't recommend illicit activity. 



[7:25] Ashley James: Right. And the doctor you worked with is really going out there on a limb because he's working with a controlled substance.



[7:32] Eric Thorton: Yes. And in Washington State they - and Oregon, I understand, they're trying to pass that it can be used in therapeutic situations. Because as you've read, the FDA is studying them.



[7:45] Ashley James: Right. I have it up on my phone right now. About a year ago, the FDA approves magic mushrooms, the psilocybin therapy trial for treatment resistant depression. And there's tons of trials. That's just one of them that I wanted to quote because if you're doing microdoses, it's not like a street drug where your intention isn't to get high.



[8:05] Eric Thorton: Correct. You do it, actually, it's recommended that you take the microdose right before bed. Not when you're awake. And then the breakthroughs, sometimes they can come to you in a dream. But they usually happen a day or two, a week, or a month later. My last one was three months after I was done with the microdosing.



[8:30] Ashley James: That's amazing.



[8:30] Eric Thorton: It is. It's absolutely phenomenal. But all the things that I've noticed with clients who found their own route with that, it woke up past life for me. And I've done it and I facilitated that. And one client she said, it changed her personality completely. She was an anxious person all the time. Couldn't get out of it. And she's not now.



[9:02] Ashley James: So I did shrooms twice when I was a teenager. Right?



[9:07] Eric Thorton: That's two more times than I did it.



[9:10] Ashley James: For me, I mean, it was the point - it was with a bunch of friends. It was New Year's. The first time, I went over a friend's house and he's like, "Hey, I got these fun things to munch on." And then we watched some scary movies. And then I was super duper afraid. I think it was like [inaudible 00:09:29] was one of the movies. It was really scary. And then I went to bed and I was really grateful the movie was over. And that's it. But the whole point was to get high. And then the second time was we drink mushroom tea at New Year's, like 1996 or something. And that was, again - and that was a really positive experience. We all just hung out and laughed. And for me, that was a much better experience than a bunch of us getting really drunk. Because  I never liked alcohol. So you know, I felt like much more in control. But everything was just very pleasurable. But when you're doing the doses intended to get you high or hallucinate, do they still have the emotional breakthroughs or the emotional breakthroughs only happen in microdoses?



[10:19] Eric Thorton: Well, the emotional breakthroughs - there's several things that come into play here. One, you mentioned you did it when you were a kid. So someone went out and picked mushrooms. Well, that's a fresh mushroom. And it's inconsistent with the amount of psilocybin in it. There's many different types. In fact, all mushrooms have psilocybin in it. And fact is, it's recommended by the people I work with to cook even [inaudible 00:10:49] before you eat them because heat kills the psilocybin. So your psilocybin tea, you hardly have any psilocybin in it because the heat - it was hot water they put on mushroom, kills the psilocybin.



[11:04] Ashley James: And maybe that's why the second time was more enjoyable because it was -



[11:08] Eric Thorton: Because it was a smaller dose. And then there is of the types that you can find in nature. Ones that will kill you. And there's ones that I understand that's been my experience with clients, too, there's ones when you touch them, they give you a purple color. And when you touch them, they give you a black color. Well, they're both used to get high. But the ones that are with the black color are more for medical therapy. From what I was been told and my research online for things like Parkinson's and that type of therapy. Were the ones with the purple color, when they're fresh, are the ones used for psychological therapy. And now, I am not quoting anybody that's just been my experience.



[12:00] Ashley James: Right. Well, there's many kinds of mushrooms.



[12:04] Eric Thorton: And you can die from mushrooms.



[12:05] Ashley James: Oh, absolutely. If you go out and you start picking mushrooms -



[12:09] Eric Thorton: Right. So this is not for any endorsement of going out and picking mushrooms.



[12:13] Ashley James: Right. Unless you know what you're doing.



[12:15] Eric Thorton: Even then, your mushrooms are inconsistent. And so with the microdosing, they test the amount of psilocybin in naturally dried mushrooms. And then they grind it up to get the right amount in it for the medicinal side in the capsule. And so it's scientific. So you get the certain amount of psilocybin with every single dose. And when you go and you just take a fresh one, you don't know how much you're getting. So I have noticed, I have one client who found their way - God only knows - got ones with the black. And that, what I've noticed, causes the brain a lot of problems for a long period of time. And she noticed that too.



[13:05] Ashley James: What do you mean by problems?



[13:06] Eric Thorton: It caused her actually more anxiety.



[13:09] Ashley James: So there are side effects.



[13:10] Eric Thorton: There are side effects, right. And it caused her body feeling neurological problems. And found she got it from some weird source. And I just went, "What did you take?" Because they were showing me she was taking the wrong thing. And it's caused her problems. So we've been working with that.



[13:32] Ashley James: So your guide showed you that she was taking the wrong one.



[13:34] Eric Thorton: Yes. Right. And I didn't know the difference at the time.



[13:39] Ashley James: I wonder if there was mold. Like, if there's some kind of contamination. Was it the mushroom itself that was just not the right one for her? Was it contamination that was harming her?



[13:48] Eric Thorton: That, I can't answer. I have no idea. As the guide just said she took the wrong one. She didn't get microtherapy. She went and she got some from a person who grows them for his Parkinson's disease. And it was like, that's uncontrolled. There's no science in that. There's no measuring the amount. There's no looking for toxins in it. It's just picking it and putting it in your mouth. And that's not really - to me, that's not really a safe practice in any way, shape, or form.



[14:23] Ashley James: Right. My husband, the man sitting beside me right now - he's waving at you guys by the way. He's smiling and waving and nodding at the microphone.



[14:33] Eric Thorton: With a knowing in his eyes.



[14:34] Ashley James: He's very kindly saying hello with his eyes. He's shy. And you were just saying about when you were a kid, you'd go to Marymoor Park with your dad to do cycling and that you'd see all kinds of people picking mushrooms. And this is a big park in Redmond, Washington. And then, Eric, you mentioned that psilocybin -



[15:01] Eric Thorton: Psilocybin mushrooms, as far as the ones that you would use in therapy, grow - my understanding - is they grow where there are people. They don't just grow out in the middle of the woods where there's no people. Now, there could be many factors for that, like, you know, they grow if you have cows. They like cow pies. When there's people and herd of cows. So there could be reasons for that, that they like that type of an environment. And they're usually out in the open. They're not in the deep woods, the type that you would use for that. But I've never picked them. I've just been told and read that they grow where there's people because they're for people. They're designed for people.



[15:46] Ashley James: It's a beautiful metaphor.



[15:44] Eric Thorton: It's a beautiful metaphor, correct.



[15:47] Ashley James: Regardless of whether it's true or not, it's a beautiful metaphor. Because I've heard this from several experts that when you find a poison in the woods - so you come across a plant that would harm you - that nearby is the cure. That nature is in such balance that for animals and humans - us being also animals - that wherever there's a poison, nearby is the cure.



[16:12] Eric Thorton: That's [inaudible 00:16:12].



[16:14] Ashley James: Yeah. So the thought that these mushrooms that can actually help us heal anxiety and heal trauma from our past and allow us to access memories to work through them with a professional that these mushrooms grow near us.



[16:31] Eric Thorton: Right. So my sons found them in the front yard at certain years. I'm going, "Why only certain years?" You know, I don't know enough about the taxonomy of mushrooms to understand when they grow and when they don't.



[16:47] Ashley James: Or they're sensing your stress levels.



[16:50] Eric Thorton: Maybe.



[16:53] Ashley James: "Eric really needs these. Let's grow in the front yard."



[16:58] Eric Thorton: I've never done them recreationally. But mushrooms, from what I've seen with my clients, it gets into places that the conscious and current personality of the individual will not allow them to go. Period. End of subject. as far as normal healing, normal psychotherapy, and things like that. That's why the FDA is doing the research on anxiety. Because it allows the body to go there. And then you go with someone that can help you work through it, do the energetic work with it, and it's amazing what takes place. And I've noticed with the clients I've worked with, that they'll get effect without the work here that we do. But then we go in and get into this amazing spaces for these people to change who they are just almost overnight out of the issues that they have found detrimental.



[18:11] Ashley James: I wonder if the microdosing of the psilocybin affects neuroplasticity. So neuroplasticity being - for those who don't know - it's like if you've done a habit, if you've done a pattern in your life, whether it's an avoidance pattern or whether it's anxiety or depression, you do a pattern. Every time you do a pattern, the neurons in the brain wire in that way deeper and deeper and deeper. And it's harder and harder to break that old habit. Like someone who's smoked cigarettes for 40 years versus someone who just took up smoking can quit. They haven't ingrained the habits into their neurology on a deep level versus someone who smoked for 40 years. It's like part of who they are.



[18:57] Eric Thorton: Well, that's the mechanism. I guess they're trying to find it with the research. But it's got to be something like that. It's never really been looked at. The guys right now are semi-affirming. So you're on the right track.



[19:08] Ashley James: I feel like the word is neuroplasticity. That it's -



[19:12] Eric Thorton: So it allows access. So that would be allowing access to the neuroplasticity to get that to change. And they create a better environment for the changing of those things. That would make sense. It would have to be researched. And that type of thing, you could probably seen SPECT scans and such within the brain.



[19:30] Ashley James: Right. Did the guides have anything they want to share about this therapy or about this topic?



[19:37] Eric Thorton: I don't know how to answer that. Because I asked them questions and they affirmed we're not.



[19:41] Ashley James: Right. I know it's kind of like handing the mic off to the guides, "Here, just talk."



[19:45] Eric Thorton: They don't do that.



[19:46] Ashley James: They don't do that.



[19:47] Eric Thorton: Unless I'm in deep meditation with them then we have conversations. But from this point of view, it's me ask the question. And that's why it's so important for me to be able to verbalize and understand what's going on a little bit with the client so I can ask the correct questions to the guides. And as you know as an interviewer, one question leads deeper and deeper and deeper. And that's how it works with guides.



[20:15] Ashley James: That's very cool.



[20:16] Eric Thorton: But like they said, "Yeah. You're on the right track."



[20:21] Ashley James: With the neuroplasticity.



[20:21] Eric Thorton: With the neuroplasticity.



[20:21] Ashley James: Very cool. Yes.



[20:22] Eric Thorton: So it will be interesting to see what the researchers find.



[20:26] Ashley James: Right. Right. Well, you know, I hope that the drug companies are not just trying to do all this research so they can make an artificial drug they're going to charge $1,000 a pill for.



[20:38] Eric Thorton: You bet they are going to do that.



[20:42] Ashley James: I hope we'll have access to the natural psilocybin in the microdoses. So tell me about it. So you take the one capsule -



[20:51] Eric Thorton: You take one capsule right before bed.



[20:54] Ashley James: And you go to bed. And it's, again, a microdose that they've done in a lab. They've tested it. So it's like a certain milligrams or microgram.



[21:00] Eric Thorton: So it's consistent and there's no poisons with it. There's no fungus with it. There's nothing to - the theory is, there's nothing to give you that minimizes any reaction - adverse reaction you might have. And it's controlled because it will give you the same - the 300 milligram will be consistent, or 200 milligrams or 150 milligram, capsules will be consistent throughout your therapy. Where if you just took a mushroom, put it on its scale, and it said 300 milligrams, well, that's fine. But it's not consistent to the next mushroom and the next one.



[21:37] Ashley James: Well, because you don't know how much the active constituents are in each mushroom. So you do want to have the access to the ones that have been tested and impurity.



[21:48] Eric Thorton: Purity and source. So anyway, you do this every third day, so twice a week.



[21:59] Ashley James: So when you went to bed that night, were you a little nervous?



[22:02] Eric Thorton: Yeah. I've never done - I don't do things like that. I'm just not that kind of person. And it's like, it's fine. I think it's great when people do it. Because like I've worked with people with iowaska, you know, all the other POD and rest of the other ones. I forget. But I've never done them myself. And so I was a little apprehensive. And I just woke up and I didn't even know I took anything. I had no idea.



[22:27] Ashley James: You didn't wake up in the night or have weird dreams or you feel high when you woke up?



[22:32] Eric Thorton: No, no. Not at all. And I understand if you were to, you'd be within an hour of taking the actual dose. But it's -



[22:42] Ashley James: If someone took it during the day, would they felt high or is it certain microdose that you don't?



[22:46] Eric Thorton: I had one person said he felt kind of like he had smoked a little bit of pot. He took it during the day. And that was it. There was no hallucinations. There was no nothing. You just felt a little bit aloof. But that was it. So it was my fourth dose where I actually woke up and was like, "Oh, mushrooms." And I just went back to sleep. But the breakthroughs came the next morning or the next day.



[23:23] Ashley James: So take us back to the next morning. So after the first dose -



[23:27] Eric Thorton: After the first dose -



[23:27] Ashley James: - what was your first breakthrough?



[23:29] Eric Thorton: The first breakthrough was the second dose. And that's the one where the image that was given me was - which I mentioned earlier - the eight year old. But I was in a jar. And this little eight year old was in a jar on a shelf. And he was screaming to get out. And I'm going, "What?" So then I thought - and I heard from - so I heard the instructions to open the jar and let him out.



[23:59] Ashley James: When you hear instructions from your guides.



[24:00] Eric Thorton: From my guides. Right. And I said okay. So out pops this guy and he jumps - this is a vision I'm having. And he wants to come back. So then I did EMDR [inaudible 00:24:16] and talked about it and worked it through and brought him back in with the help of the guides. I couldn't bring him back in without the help of the guides. And when he came back in, doing the therapy, and writing and journaling, and really respecting the gift, that's when all the memories were set on the back.



[24:39] Ashley James: What's EMDR?



[24:41] Eric Thorton: Eye Motor Desensitization And Realization.



[24:43] Ashley James: Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 



[24:44] Eric Thorton: These are both - their hypnotherapies. And that was where then it woke up my working with it from past life. And then I got to see, "Okay. This is what has to be done for people if they're going to do this." And I thought, "Oh, well. That's never going to happen."



[25:07] Ashley James: What? Your clients aren't going to do this?



[25:09] Eric Thorton: They're not going to do this. They're not going to come in. They've already done it, found it themselves, har about it. But people are talking about this stuff now. And then clients are doing this stuff. And all of a sudden they're showing up at my door. And I'm like, "All right. Well, there you go." And I'm just working with the after effects of their decisions. And it's phenomenal breakthroughs. And it's helping people. They're doing it for depression for the study for the government. But my understanding and from what people are telling me, it reduces bipolar and schizophrenia for up to a year so you don't have to take the medication. And it's along the lines of LSD therapy. It's the exact same therapy. And you can also - I don't want to mention this one. But there is - ecstasy is a hallucinogen. And if when it's microdosed, it can do the same thing as LSD psilocybin.



[26:20] Ashley James: Well, they're doing this in Silicon Valley. They're doing this in San Francisco, in the Bay Area. It's big. It's big in the tech world. So I'm sure they're doing it here in Seattle. It's big in the tech world to microdose LSD, microdose ecstasy, microdose mushrooms in order to expand their mental abilities. There's this 19 year old that we follow online, who has made how much millions - millions of dollars now trading cryptocurrency. And he microdosed LSD and overnight was able to understand a whole new level of how the system works and how to trade. And then he teaches it. And that these people who are like -



[27:04] Eric Thorton: He's breakthrough.



[27:05] Ashley James: Well, he had a huge breakthrough. He's a 19 year old. He's never been trained in it formally. And he basically outsmarted all these guys who, like, have PhDs in math, who were able to - they developed this software to watch how the markets work. And he just looked at it on LSD and it was like seeing the matrix. But it was a microdose. It wasn't like full on, you know. I hear these stories all the time that people are using nootropics or using some form of - hopefully naturally derived -



[27:39] Eric Thorton: Hopefully.



[27:40] Ashley James: -- substance to expand that neuroplasticity for the desire to be even better at what they do in the tech world. And be even more creative.



[27:54] Eric Thorton: You have to be part of this. You said "their desire." That's very important, is you just take it recreationally. You're not directing the wisdom of the mushroom, those are the words I've used or I've been told. There's a wisdom. And recreational, well, it's going to give you recreational wisdom. But if you're going after something and you're open to it, and you journal about it, and you set intention before you even do the microdosing, that's when you get the effects. If apparently, the mushroom - or your brain knows, I guess it would be the call to wisdom of the mushrooms, but - okay. But your brain knows what to do with it with you setting the intention. So doing it recreational, like you had done twice, versus the guy you just mentioned, he had a purpose. So he was able to open up the neuroplasticity of that part of his brain. So from my understanding is that does need to be done. There's a procedure that's done. That is being mindful, setting intention, journaling before, journaling after, getting professional feedback. And that's what I've gotten from the doctors. And then we take it a step farther.



[29:21] Ashley James: Yeah, when people come to you -



[29:22] Eric Thorton: When people come to me we can get into that. Get in deeper and change and work with and create, if there's predatory energy, for example. It's not going to allow your brain to change. And if we can get rid of that then we're going to allow it to change. If there's a part of me where we did a little soul retrieval. We had to respect what took place, the severity of why that part of me was jarred or canned, whatever. And work its way back into my life where our normal journey doesn't get there, whether we didn't get rid of the predatory energy, the pain the child had, the trauma, the predatory energy from other people that were around me at the time, et cetera. It was all there in the jar. And when you pull that back out, you have to dissect it and get it down to the exact thing that you're working with.



[30:25] Ashley James: Right. And so that's why it's so important to work with professionals like you and the doctor that - hopefully, the doctor that prescribed is also a therapist so that they're able to help you process things. But it's important for you to have that intention journal and then work with someone like you who can help to work with them on the energetic level and process it.



[30:50] Eric Thorton: Well, at least recommend - because you're setting the intention, if you want psychological changes, you should be getting whether - you should be working with somebody to help you explore those changes so you can get them and access them. So if you're just taking them and not doing anything with it, you're not going to get the depth. Period. I mean, that's the fact of anything. Looking at a book doesn't get the information in your brain from reading the book. So it that same correlation. You've done it, you're looking at the cover, "Is that nice?" Some people might like to get high from it or whatever. But you're just looking at the cover of the book. It can show all sorts of details in the picture but you're not absorbing it. And so that's where the therapist comes in. And I can help people with that or find a therapist that's going to help you explore that.

My therapist, I'm bringing the breakthroughs into therapy to see if I can squeeze out a little more even. I mean, it's a different perspective. And as you know it takes a village. And I am a firm believer in that. So why not bring in to my therapist? And the therapist just went, "Yeah. That's great." So we're bringing a little more out of each thing. Because like the child that popped out that we pulled back, he was a full person. Somebody did some more therapy lately and it was sound therapy. Which might be someone you're interested in interviewing. But he looked at that moment. I brought it to him. And he goes, "Well, there's guilt there." And I go, "Huh. I never thought of that." And he goes, "I just see guilt. I don't know what it's attached to." But he goes, "I see guilt." And he did some music with it and it brought up - because I was born with these gifts on. I looked at it and I asked my guide, I go, "The guilt of this eight year old." And they go, "Well, an eight year old doesn't have guilt." I mean, they can feel guilty but they can't be guilty. They're still innocent.



[3:14] Ashley James: Well, what about survivor's guilt? When a loved one dies, we can feel guilty that we were the ones that lived and they died.



[33:24] Eric Thorton: But an eight year old doesn't have that depth. And I look back at that and there was no guilt. And there was afterward and there was guilt from the experience and the benefits that I got from that time of him passing.



[33:44] Ashley James: You felt guilty for gaining benefit from his passing?



[33:48] Eric Thorton: Yes. But not -



[33:50] Ashley James: As an adult?



[33:50] Eric Thorton: As an adult but not as a child. But of course, other people may have felt guilty because of the situation he drowned. And I took that guilt on. Because I am a healer. And it was from close loved ones. And I saw that and it was like, "Oh." I meditated. I went to my guides. They said - and had kind of conversation. I said, "Yeah. There is guilt. But it's not your guilt. You took it on." And then I looked at that and I felt it in my body. And sure enough, and I came out of this really bad spot I have in my back. And it was like - and then the muscle started to shift and soft it up, because I have muscle spasm in a certain area of my back. And that was just three days ago. And it's like I'm sleeping much better. And bringing this to and being honest and upfront with another practitioner, his point of view allowed access because I have a more verbal connection for me to go, "Okay. What is this?" And I was able to get a yet another benefit from the mushroom therapy. I can't say enough about it as far as for what it's helped me with.



[35:32] Ashley James: But it's not a cure at all. You don't just take it and then go about your business. It opens the door and you have to walk in and you have to got to do the work.



[35:42] Eric Thorton: You have to do the work.



[35:44] Ashley James: And you are like an amazing healer. And you're going to other healers because they're getting different - they're allowing different perspectives. And the guides are just going to do everything for us. You can't just sit there and be like, "Okay. Fix me." We can't give away our free will. We have to go and live and explore and connect with other healers and the therapist and they help us to - they help us to see deeper but we've got to do the work.



[36:14] Eric Thorton: We have to do the work. You mentioned free will and this is one of those pet peeves of mine. People go, "Well, it all has to be done in free will." Of what? People go, free will of the conscious personality, free will of the subconscious personality, free will of the child personality, or free will of the soul's personality. The body wants everything level, kind, sweet, everything. We all want that. But that's not the purpose of life. The free will we're looking at is to stay within the free will of the soul. It's not the free will of the body. And at first I didn't get that until I realized just how weak the body is. The body is a tool. And it keeps going to this place of neutrality trying to achieve that. It is in that process of trying to go there that we have the learning and the wisdom. And as soon as we get there, something else goes. Because if you're in that neutral place, you're in neutral.



[37:27] Ashley James: Homeostasis.



[37:28] Eric Thorton: Homeostasis. You're not growing.



[37:28] Ashley James: It's like purgatory. You're not growing.



[37:30] Eric Thorton: Right. You're not growing. You're sitting there not growing, what's the use? The soul is here to learn. So it's the free will of the soul that we look at. And this seems to - and I promote this in everything I do, it takes a village. And so you have to be able to go and sit there innocently with people and their gifts. And even when people call in, we check to see if I can be used to help there or not within their free will. And if they're not there, I don't know. They're not there or we're not a match. It's not, they're not there. It's just we're not a match.



[38:12] Ashley James: Right. You're not like, "You're not good enough for me."



[38:15] Eric Thorton: No. Sorry. If you implied that, I mean I didn't mean to say that. Butt it's like, "No. It's just we're not a match." My gifts - why spend the money where you're not going to get the most for your buck.



[38:25] Ashley James: I really respect how you work with people. So when my listeners call in before you guys work together because you can work through Skype very effectively.



[38:38] Eric Thorton: And we are doing in person [inaudible 00:38:40].



[38:40] Ashley James: Or people can come in person if they choose to, which is also great. But you're very effective over Skype also. Because it's energy work.



[38:50] Eric Thorton: It's energy work.



[38:50] Ashley James: But it's fun to see you in person. It's fun to be here.



[38:52] Eric Thorton: It is. It's fun to work with people in person. I love it.



[38:55] Ashley James: But when they call in, you meditate and it takes - sometimes it takes a few days. And you talk to their guides. And your guides and their guides have a little [inaudible 00:39:05] with you. And you figure out if it would be in their best interests to work with you.



[39:12] Eric Thorton: Right. And it's their best interest. And remember it's the best interest of the soul. It's not the body. What the body wants is different -



[39:23] Ashley James: Homeostasis.


[39:23] Eric Thorton: -- with homeostasis. It's not what the soul needs. So we see if this perspective can help them or not. Sometimes, I guess, you would call it - they say yes, but it will be limited. And so then I tell the patient that and the client that. And because of tightly held beliefs. So sometimes they say yes. But it may be just one session. Or yes, but maybe two sessions, or no. But it's pretty rare. But once in a while they do say no. And people that call in that just want a magic bullet to make everything better, well, sometimes that happens. But most of the time it's a little work. Yeah. So like you mentioned, a friend that had done the iowaska for a number of times to help her immune system. Well, it helped her. That's terrific. And there's no one in the US that probably would have recommended that as far as a professional doctor or somebody.



[40:40] Ashley James: Right. Yeah. She went all the way to Peru. And I just published that episode. But she went all the way to Peru and had like, I think, 27 doses of iowaska. She's on the mend. And she went for - she wanted to help her body, help her immune system, help her physical body heal. And then she started seeing emotional, spiritual energetic benefits from it as well.



[41:05] Eric Thorton: Right. Well, iowaska, it helps open us up but it's more of the consciousness. Versus I have found iowaska doesn't get in the same way as microtherapy. It has it's -



[41:21] Ashley James: Microdosing.



[41:22] Eric Thorton: Microdosing. Versus the major dosing, which gives you a hallucinogenic and body high and to loosen through all your whole body. You understand. But I worked with people who've done iowaska and they can get in trouble energetically. But we can also repair that and bring it back. And even make iowaska look at those journeys and see what benefit we can pull out of those. And sometimes it's pretty amazing. Sometimes I have ran into it that the person is just a drug addict and they're substituting ayahuasca for heroin. And it's like, "Okay. Well,  that's how deep they are and that's fine." But we're not going to pull anything else out of it. But if they had strong intention when they did it - personal intention - we can pull quite a bit out of the journey that they had in South America. I woke up past life where I've done this before with people, you know, 500, 600 years ago. So it's a different story today.



[42:29] Ashley James: So you were a shaman.



[42:30] Eric Thorton: I was a healer that did iowaska [inaudible 00:42:35].



[42:35] Ashley James: In the Amazon?



[42:36] Eric Thorton: Actually, it was in what would be -



[42:41] Ashley James: Central America.  central



[42:43] Eric Thorton: Kind of central - the Amazon Basin. And I remember the past life. But I didn't - it wasn't woken up as to what I did. And part of it was for people that were bipolar, had mental issues. We did. I [inaudible 00:42:58] journey and followed them through the journey and helped them through the journey. Where today's facilitators, they call them shaman. But they're not. They're facilitators. And so because of that, it can be a bit dangerous. And so I've never recommended it. I've seen people that have done it, then we've taken it and worked with it. But I've known people that have been damaged by it as well. Because the facilitators are trained and then they're given the title shaman. And they're not born a shaman.



[43:42] Ashley James: With their gifts on.



[43:43] Eric Thorton: With their gifts on. They are people that have learned techniques. And techniques don't get in there and can't work with hallucination. They can't work. They don't see what is actually going on in that person's mind to help them. To work with them in the little fine - working with them one-on-one and being there and see what they're seeing and experiencing what they're experiencing and refining it and telling them where to go and what to do and what to reach for. That doesn't happen in South America. Which is what I used to do a long time ago, you know, hundreds of years ago, was I would sit with each individual and work with them and literally be with them in there and experiencing what they're experiencing. But fully aware and conscious. And then we maximize it for them.

That was fascinating to see that. The level I did it in the past life. And then bring that to people after they were done with the experience. Because here, that's what we have to do. It's amazing how the little - the fine tuning that can be done which is very important. And you have to have a very amazing facilitator to do that that you can trust. Because they can fine tune it according to their ego. So they have to listen so that they will hear the other person's guides and say, "Okay. What do we do with this nuance? And what do we do with this nuance?" Because otherwise, they're working out of ego and they're going to install their - and they're going to see the individual who's working their problems as a problem when it's not. It's a beginning of a journey or a breakthrough.

But the person's own experience, the facilitator would say, "Oh. That's an issue. We must get rid of that." Versus the guy goes, "No. Okay. Now, let's take it to this step or this step or this step. So it's a very different experience, that's all I'm saying. When you're working and working with it very specifically and experiencing the same thing the person is experiencing.



[45:57] Ashley James: It's kind of frustrating, many of us can't talk directly to our guides like you can. It's kind of like, "What's the point of having guides if we can't talk to them?" Like, how do they guide us if we can't talk to them?



[46:11] Eric Thorton: Well, the interesting thing is, is my guides don't guide me. They'll tell me, "Okay. Eric, you're in danger" or something like that. Which is a great tool. There's no question about that.



[46:26] Ashley James: Because of life. 



[46:27] Eric Thorton: But with my problems, my personal problems, my human problems, they don't give me the answers. Because it's the journey that you find the answers. If they give me the answers, it's just like going through to the dictionary to learn how to pronounce a word. You try it three weeks later and you can't pronounce it again. Because you've just been given the answer. There's no wisdom with it to hold it in your brain. So that's what most people want, they want to talk to their guide so they can go, "Well, can you take care of this knee pain for me." And they go, "Oh, sure." Bam. And it's done. Well, what was the purpose of the knee pain them? So they've just eliminated the purpose of your knee pain, which was growth. So guides don't do that. Things that aren't guides will, but the guides will not do that.



[47:14] Ashley James: What do you mean by things that aren't guides?



[47:16] Eric Thorton: Predatory energy. They will give you answers to things. Like I had a client that said they went to this local guru. And they met each other at this meeting. And he said, "You and you have to get married." And they went and did it. Because this guru was popular. Oh, it was a marriage made in hell. And they didn't - they just learned how to be miserable. And I was like, "That was not a guide. A guide will not tell people to get married."



[47:55] Ashley James: Right. Because that eliminates total free will of the soul.



[48:00] Eric Thorton: Free will of the soul. And it causes karma. It causes sin. I mean they had a whole bunch - a whole slew of bad experiences. And I look at bad experiences as good because if you can turn them into something good. Well, I guess it did. It taught them that everybody out there who says they're a spiritual person, they're spiritual but who are they connected to? There's no discernment out there in the new age. And that was ego. And that's one of the ways you tell is, if they're making ego based statements when you're in therapy in doing that.



[48:39] Ashley James: I imagine most healers or therapists kind of are coming from ego.



[48:46] Eric Thorton: They are. Well, that's - even I have to go through my ego to do that. So it's a tough statement to make. But something that is trying to control is an ego versus something that is not trying to control is presenting.



[49:09] Ashley James: So presenting information versus trying to control your decisions around it.



[49:13] Eric Thorton: Correct. Taking away just providing miracle after miracle after miracle after miracle. That is pleasant for the human homeostasis. But it's not good for the soul's progression. Because you're taking away the wisdom or the purpose of the pain or suffering. Instead of using it and growing from it. So then the pain and suffering becomes irrelevant. And your body gets rid of it. And it's done. And it takes a little more time but it's the level that the healing took place is permanent at that point. Because nothing's coming back. So like if you go to someone who's healing with predatory energy, they'll make the statement, like we talked about earlier, "Well, if you don't heal it, you're at fault." That's an ego statement. And you're blaming someone and you're making them feel inadequate.



[50:18] Ashley James: This was a healer that was -



[50:20] Eric Thorton: That I worked with.



[50:21] Ashley James: That you worked with that was saying that if their clients didn't heal, it was their fault.



[50:27] Eric Thorton: It was their fault. And you run into a lot of that in new age. It's, "Well, you just weren't ready for it." That's a real common statement. You're not ready yet. And it's like, "Well, that's a cop out." You're not ready yet? Well, we look at that as, "Well, why not? What's blocking it? What do we have to learn first?" If we use the term, "So that they can be ready to fix that." And that's where we're very different, is people will come in with these desires and we find a way to - I'm lead a way to get to them eventually. Sometimes it's time to deal within exactly that versus you have to come around the other way and do the homework to get to the actual thing that originally they came in for. And so it takes effort.



[51:27] Ashley James: So everyone's ready.



[51:29] Eric Thorton: Everybody's ready.



[51:31] Ashley James: Everyone's ready, it's just -



[51:32] Eric Thorton: It's just finding the pathway.



[51:32] Ashley James: Yeah. Exactly. What do you got to work on - first, it's kind of like when a sweater becomes that big ball of yarn not like, you know, whatever. I have this big image in my mind of like this impossible, not of yarn. Like, anytime we've tried to make a sweater and then the cat got into it or something. And it's just this impossible giant. It's like, what string do we pull to unravel this mess?



[51:58] Eric Thorton: What's the right one? There's a word for it, I'm forgetting what it is. But just being able to uncover that key point. And that takes effort to get there. And then once you get there, the healing that takes place is permanent. And if you can't get there, it's not going to happen. Whereas someone with predatory energy might go, "Hit the key point, impress the person, how did you know that?" And then they feel better, they get a placebo effect. And then it comes back. And that's when the new age will often go, "Oh, you weren't ready yet. It's not me. It's you, basically." And the [inaudible 00:52:45].



[52:45] Ashley James: Which is installing guilt and shame.



[52:48] Eric Thorton: Guilt and shame and the theory of original sin, that we're not good enough. And to me, I mentioned earlier, I heard someone say one day that, healers create karma so you don't want to go to a healer.



[53:06] Ashley James: Don't go to a healer because it creates karma for you to go to a healer? 



[53:10] Eric Thorton: Right. And I'm like, well, I suppose if you got some new age point of view and you could cause healer for the karma - karma for the healer or the individual, either way. If you're making statements that make a person feel bad or inadequate.



[53:30] Ashley James: The healer is putting their garbage or emotional - their emotional baggage on to the client. And the client walks away holding on to negative beliefs about themselves that the healer either installed or reinforced. Then that is creating karma. And for listeners who haven't heard Eric in past episodes, Eric has gone deep into what is karma, how to work through it, what's it purpose. And so it's not necessarily the new age version or definition of what you think karma is. It's actually - it's quite different. It's quite interesting. I definitely recommend listeners to go to and search Eric Thornton in the search bar and listen to our past episodes together. Because we've gone into -



[54:18] Eric Thorton: They kind of build on each other.



[54:19] Ashley James: Yeah, they do. They do build - each talk has built on the next one.



[54:22] Eric Thorton: Right. So we're assuming each time that you've listened to the other episodes. Even we were talking about psilocybin therapy. Well, if it's done right, it really helps. If it's done wrong or not complete - I guess wrong is not the right word. Just not a complete - you don't have someone who can really dig in there and see what's going on -



[54:51] Ashley James: So if you're just doing it on your own, you order it from Canada and you start microdosing yourself.



[54:55] Eric Thorton: Right. You start microdosing yourself and you get all these effects and then they do away Then you've just proved yourself that psilocybin doesn't work. Because you didn't do something. That's why I recommend the therapy.


[55:09] Ashley James: Right. It's like saying a key to a host doesn't work because just having the key in your pocket doesn't open the door for you and let you inside magically. So it's opening the neuroplasticity but then you actually have to go in and do the work.



[55:24] Eric Thorton: Do the work. Find the wisdom. Find what it is that happened. It can be from past life. It can be - we've literally done repairs at past life that are depths that are phenomenal. How that past life affects the current life. And we couldn't get out of it before. And we go, it's just because that person's psyche is set up that way. It's not a right or wrong thing. It's just it's set up that way. So we couldn't get in there and now we could. And that being kind and gentle and bringing that up, finessing, listening for the wisdom, listening for the who, what, when, where and why. And so the person can absorb it, experience it, identify the habits. Part of neuroplasticity is identifying those habits and going, "Oh, I'm not there anymore." Giving them an opportunity to bring in another facet of their personality that they just discovered.

So you're replacing - which is what we're doing. It's like if someone has a habit in neuroplasticity, like we talked about, they do things a certain way because they've done it that way for 10,000 times. Well, we can identify that. We can look at it. You can look at the benefits, the non-benefits, et cetera. You can see it. You can roll it around. You can play with it. But until you get in there and actually look at why the habit formed in the beginning.



[57:01] Ashley James: What is it replacing? Or what is compensating for?



[57:05] Eric Thorton: What it's compensating for. Specifically what it's compensating for so you can recognize it inside of you, where are you finding it in your body. Recognize, we actually give you the words. And we go - we've done a little bit with you dusty. It's like we've given you a new place to go with the issue you have so that you can go, "Oh, there's the old issue. And this is the new habit." So it's the same type of thing. You have to dig back to find the old issue. Then you have to find what the guide say would replace it. And then you identify it and then you are in free will. Changing your free will of the body, the consciousness, and the soul.



[57:54] Ashley James: Can you give us an example of someone you've worked with that before they had the psilocybin and then something specific they're working on. Then after the psilocybin. Can you think of a client? Obviously, don't share their name. But think of something like they were able to resolve those habits.



[58:15] Eric Thorton: I had one client that had an issue came up and they called it gluttony. And I've had that for several people. And it's ,like, we saw where it came from, where the habit started. And what specifically triggers that emotional response in that person's brain. Now, we've gone back prior to that experience with them and with that. And we're able to look at it and see it. But we're not able to go there. So we've been -



[58:53] Ashley James: What do you mean by not able to go there?



[58:53] Eric Thorton: Well, we didn't get down to the very, very specific incident combined with this person, combined with a series of instances from past life. When they starved to death in a past life. Another one they were with a - I'm trying to remember here - with an extremely controlling situation where they were rationed food. And then in this life when they were an infant, they were left to be a little more hungry. And so when they were an infant, it triggered the past lives. Not even - they consciously remember it. It triggered the past lives and it formed this subconscious energy which they called gluttony. Because of the reaction to hunger from past lives in this life. Well, prior to that, we could see that mom wasn't really consistent with feeding the baby. And I could see that something from past life was there. But the guides - as I could see the distance. But the guides will say, "No. We're not there yet."



[1:00:18] Ashley James: And then after doing the microdosing psilocybin that person was ready to go there?



[1:00:28] Eric Thorton: And that person went there on their own and saw that experience. And then before they could go, "Yeah. My mom's ADD and blah, blah, blah." But they actually went there and they experienced it.  And it opened that porthole up. So when we came here, we saw the experience again. And then the connection to it and what tripped it for this major thing that happened when they were an infant, what tripped it. And that was the past life experience. And it brought forward frequency that allowed predatory energy into it. And that's when it majorly took on a role in that person's life. And they couldn't control their eating.



[1:01:09] Ashley James: So how long ago did you work with this person, weeks or months ago?



[1:01:15] Eric Thorton: That was four months ago.



[1:01:16]  Ashley James: And so you were able to go there with them, heal that release the predatory energy.



[01:01:22] Eric Thorton: And they're slowly losing weight.



[1:01:25] Ashley James: And do they feel now in control around food? Or has it shifted overnight? Or is it a process?



[1:01:32] Eric Thorton: It shifted overnight in that they felt - their report to me was that they felt even though they were still eating, it was more of a choice now. It's the choice started naturally coming in. And they didn't fear hunger. And they realized it just started coming to them, a lot of hunger is because we're dehydrated. And they just started naturally drinking water. It was a natural healing. And it just slowly started. I mean, they're still working it. But it's slowly started, the body looking at food and nutrients from a different perspective. Instead of panic about it, it's like, "Oh, well, let's look at that."



[1:02:14] Ashley James: And maybe I could drink a glass of water. Or before it was -



[1:02:18] Eric Thorton: But they just go for the glass of water. They sit with it. They said, "Oh, that's the glutton." And now this is a healthy person. So they sit with it. And then the right thing comes to them. And it's slowly - because they're not affirming the old neural pathways. They're now going, "Okay. There's the neural pathway that was set in, that's the glutton." Versus now the neural pathway is, "Okay. Well, we're not a glutton anymore so we got time." And then they just go and get a glass of water. They don't have to think, "Okay. I got to go get a glass of water." They just go and get a glass of water. Or they'll push the food away. And they put smaller servings on their plate. And that's a natural healing.

If you're fighting it all the time, then you're not healed. So that's the amazing thing. It's just a slow shift in their perspective of food. Because they don't have to keep reaffirming the pattern that was set when they were an infant. They could look at it and go, "That's not me. That came from a combination of past life and this life from circumstances that are beyond my control for this body. And now, I can relax about it. And go, 'Okay. So what's up?'" And they slowly just make different choices. And they've lost - I think they're probably up to seven or eight pounds now with no effort at all. Well, that's a completely flip of the situation. So they're now looking at - and they literally said they can push away." Oh, I've had enough of that."



[1:03:56] Ashley James: Well, the first time I worked with you, I mean, it was major. I think we did ,like, 12 different things. It was pretty big. But you removed three pretty intense predatory energies that I had since I was nine and it was blatant for me. It was clearly blatant. I've talked about it in past episodes. But what I noticed more lately, I'm really getting that I can only eat half as much as I used to. Like, I push the plate away or I'm not going for seconds or I'm taking a smaller portion. There's a restaurant I really liked because you can be whole food plant based at this restaurant. And it's a Mongolian grill, no oil, you can say no oil. And I go and I just get an entire bowl of vegetables and then choose if I want the garlic water on it or something. And they have brown rice. And in the past, I was able to eat three bowls and be like, "Okay. Now I'm full." Now I can barely finish. It's like, one and I'm full. I'm like, "Damn. I mean, this is an all you can eat place and I'm -"



[1:05:05] Eric Thorton: I got to get more. I got to get my money's worth.



[1:05:05] Ashley James: I got to get more. I paid for it. Right. I got to get my money's worth. But I eat one bowl and I'm like, "Whoa. Okay. I'm done." That was great. One bowl of vegetables and a little bit of brown rice and I am done. And so I sat there, I was like, "What has changed?" What has changed? And the only thing that working with you and removing those predatory energies. And it's just amazing that -



[1:05:28] Eric Thorton: Well, it was the predatory energies that kept you in fear going for more or thinking that way to set off your natural regulator. And it's like yours didn't require the mushroom therapy to get there. Which I've worked with a lot of people and it doesn't require that. Just that one person that did. But it's like, "Okay. That's a natural healing." It just starts and that will be with you for the rest of your life. And if you make a choice to eat a lot more again, that's still your choice. And in the end, you can undo - you not undo. You can create a new neural pathway if you want.



[1:06:01] Ashley James: I can choose. 



[1:06:02] Eric Thorton: You can choose.



[1:06:03] Ashley James: But if when we have predatory energies, it's like --



[1:06:05] Eric Thorton: You can't choose.



[1:06:07] Ashley James: Yeah. Our choice is being hijacked.



[1:06:09]  Eric Thorton: You're being compelled, I call it.



[1:06:11] Ashley James: Right. Yeah.



[1:06:12] Eric Thorton: It's like, "No, no. You need that. Oh, gosh." You just got to.



[1:06:16] Ashley James: And I think it's funny and I mentioned it in past episodes. But I really knew I had a predatory energy when a voice in my head said, "Go eat McDonald's." I'm like, "I eat whole food based. I have eaten McDonald's in nine years or ten years." And it was like, "Chicken nuggets." I'm like, "This is not me." When there's a voice in your head that doesn't align with your personality and it doesn't align with your choices then you know.



[1:06:45] Eric Thorton: And you have something else.



[1:06:46] Ashley James: But it could mask itself for many years. And I thought it was just me. I thought it was a part of me for many years until I changed so much consciously. And that part didn't change. And that the predatory energy didn't change. But I changed so much. So I went, "Wow, that's really not me anymore." And so why is this part of me still holding on to past me?



[1:07:11] Eric Thorton: Right. And you probably done a lot of therapy around it and nothing got there. But once we removed the predatory energy, then all that therapy you'd already done clicks in. Because it's still there in your subconscious mind. And all that therapy did help also make it so you could look at that and not take three bowls. It wasn't just removing. It was the other therapy you've done as well. And so that's, again, why we call this work inclusive. Is because everything you've done prior to that moment, to work, to gain wisdom for the thing that is bothering you. That's all wisdom you got from all the other therapy. If it's just this roadblock and we remove the roadblock, and it flows.

So for someone with years in the situation similar that hadn't done any work at all, they might have had to, we go in, we'd remove the predatory energy, they'd feel the difference. Then their eating habits would come back. And as they come in again and we take the next step and we start doing the therapy that you'd already done.  We start walking through them. What is this? What is this aspect of your personality? What is this thing that's compelling you? I see you had stress here and you ate here? What did it do? Where do you feel that in your body? Get the person back in touch with their body and get in their body's wisdom. Whether maybe the therapy that you had done had gotten you to realize the body's wisdom. Got all that stuff in place. It just could take effect. So that -- sometimes we have to teach the body new wisdom because they haven't got the therapy somewhere else.



[1:09:05] Ashley James: How many of your clients have done psilocybin or other forms of microdosing? Would you say it's like a really strong percentage of your clients?



[1:09:18] Eric Thorton: No. They're very small. The microdosing is a fairly new concept with it. I've worked with hundreds of clients who've done macrodosing.



[1:09:28] Ashley James: Does the microdosing help at all?  Or like you said, it's because of the intention. Their intention was to have fun, party, get high. The intention doesn't - but the substance, the psilocybin was still there. So does that, on some level, help with neuroplasticity? Or it does only help when its microdosed or only helps when it's microdose and there's [inaudible 01:09:48]?



[1:09:48] Eric Thorton: You don't have the deep breakthroughs where you can actually change overnight major personality conflicts. And sometimes with microdose - and you can also pick up the predatory energy from people when you're in that type of state. I won't even meditate in groups. And that's conscious meditation. You're going there and you're just blowing your psyche open, your soul open.



[1:10:20] Ashley James: What about yoga? What about doing yoga and a class?



[1:10:23] Eric Thorton: Yoga is a different intention. But some yoga people do try to get meditation in with it. And you can all share energy really easy. You're comrades in arms. Any group does that. And I just mentioned comrades. The army does it. It's one big intention. To create strength with their intention.



[1:10:42] Ashley James: Churches.



[1:10:42] Eric Thorton: Churches do that.



[1:10:43]  Ashley James: Yeah. The churches I've gone to, they do a lot of like silent meditation and prayer together.



[1:10:49] Eric Thorton: In Christianity, what is the cross? And it's literally, you know, I've got that thing hanging on the wall here which nobody can see. It's a vortex. The sign of the cross is a vortex. And the Catholic Church knows that. And they even create - at Easter time, they even put the symbol around the center of the cross. The square that's turned sideways with fabric making even a stronger vortex, which is that's a whole another subject. Sorry. We'll have to explore that someday.



[1:11:24] Ashley James: You can see the gears turning in my head like a million questions.



[1:11:28] Eric Thorton: Yeah. It's like, "Okay." But what you are doing is you are blowing open this consciousness and the subconsciousness with the psilocybin uncontrolled macrodosing. And putting the person very vulnerable to the other people around them. There are things - even in my past life when I did this, it was one-on-one. We didn't do it in groups. IT was one on one.



[1:11:54] Ashley James: Right. And just remembering the iowaska interview I just did, most of the time they're doing ayahuasca in groups. And they're all having really big experiences.



[1:12:07] Eric Thorton: They're having big experiences.



[1:12:07] Ashley James: The unconscious mind is blown wide open.



[1:12:09] Eric Thorton: It is. And it's - I don't want to rank on the industry as far as people do get benefits from it. But what is - I experienced that there's a lot more that we could get out - we could wring out of those experiences in the work we do here. And I see that people will take on very predatory energies. I had one young lady and she went with a friend to be safe and they were both raped when they were under the influence. And they don't remember it but they have PTSD from it. And it's like, what are you supposed to do with that? It's become an industry down there.



[1:13:05] Ashley James: Right. Teresa said that when you go to the airport in Peru or Brazil, other places, a restaurant in the Amazon that there are "shamans" standing there at the airport holding a sign. And people will fly down and then hire the shaman right there in the airport. And that she said that they'll put additional things - additional herbs -



[1:13:30] Eric Thorton: Lots of different herbs in it.



[1:13:31] Ashley James: - just to get the person high not to have the healing experience.



[1:13:35] Eric Thorton: Right. And if they want to take advantage of them and rape them, they can put a certain herb in there and they don't remember anything. And that's the risk. There is no regulation down there. It's my understanding the government has caused this. The governments have caused it indirectly because they're requiring these tribes to put in septic systems, put in water systems, and they all cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Instead of being nomadic, they have to not be nomadic in the Amazon forest. And they have to create sanitary conditions and they don't have cash. So they've had to do this to create a cash flow. And that was where it originally started. Where they started taking it away from the masters.

I'm not going to call them shaman. You can be a shaman. Not be a master. But the words are cheap. People can throw those words around anywhere. But not the authentic masters that were born with the gifts on that didn't have to learn anything from another shaman. That's someone born. They get it. Period. And there's very few of those around the world. And so there's two masters that did this but they had to come up with cash. So then they started teaching facilitators and calling them shaman.



[1:15:00] Ashley James: Do you think - and this is getting into a conspiracy theory. But do you think that the countries in the area did it on purpose to disempower the true healings because there's no government that actually wants their citizens to be awake and to be empowered. Those governments are afraid of their citizens so they want to keep them fighting among themselves.



[1:15:29] Eric Thorton: Subdued. Right. And subdued somehow. Distracted.



[1:15:29] Ashley James: Did they do that on purpose to stop people from becoming empowered? Or was it just coincidental that that was the result?



[1:15:40] Eric Thorton: Well, I look at a lot of things with conspiracy theory. And look at it and go, "Well -" it was Dr. Lim that I was talking to. And he said, "Well, it's like with the American Medical Association. There's no one person doing anything that isn't good intention. But their perspectives, their ideas with as good intention to help their clients gets them looked at. And then someone else modifies it again with good intention. And then someone else modifies that with good intention. And then someone else modifies that with good intention. And pretty soon you get a thing that comes up as evil.



[1:16:29] Ashley James: Well, I would say like -



[1:16:30] Eric Thorton: Where it isn't one person that's doing it.



[1:16:32] Ashley James: Well, but there's an organization, let's say the pharmaceutical industry has an intention. And they say "Okay. Lobbyists go. Lobby for this."



[1:16:41] Eric Thorton: But that's a corporate intention. 



[1:16:42] Ashley James: Right. But they affect the AMA all the time.



[1:16:45] Eric Thorton: They do. But the AMA still has to - they're doing it because they want to raise money. Because a corporation is for profit. So they're going there with the idea, "Okay. Let's do the opioid thing." Well, as far as the sales people are taught, "Well, this is good for everybody."



[1:17:07] Ashley James: Oh, so you're saying it's compartmentalized.



[1:17:09] Eric Thorton: It's compartmentalize. It's not one person which creates this whole thing - conspiracy - that is to be looked at as evil. This is what people look at the United States for. It's a corporate system. The corporates are for profit. Anything they can do to make money. There's no consciousness with that. Bu to sum total, we talked about corporate consciousness. There is in the end, a corporate consciousness. We call them thought forms.

When everybody as their thoughts to them, it creates something. It could be looked at as evil or can draw a predatory energy to that consciousness. And then it becomes a thing. And then it would be called an evil at that point. Because it drew predatory energy into controlling the populations. And it works out real well for the government. And the governments can start to create it. But the sales people, the people delivering it to the people, they don't have bad intentions.



[1:18:18] Ashley James: The individuals in the pharmaceutical industry are not bad people. Yeah, I've met the ex-sales people. They've got a spouse and family and kids and their moms and dads and they're not evil. But then they turned around one day and realized that what they were selling was harming people. And then they either chose -



[1:18:39] Eric Thorton: When they become aware of it, they change.



[1:18:42] Ashley James: And they either chose to stay or leave.



[1:18:44] Eric Thorton: Right. Right. If they stayed, then it would be conspiracy. But they chose to leave because they realized it wasn't. So that happens in this too. That's why I mentioned the government required these certain things for their benefit. They needed sanitation. They needed water. Well, that wasn't a bad person coming up with that. Because they couldn't be nomadic anymore because they were using the rainforest for palm oil. Sorry. And so it's not one person but it works for the government in the end.



[1:19:23] Ashley James: Right. Well, I mean if they had designed it in a way that what is more affordable than - right. So just looking at, because I think there's a correlation between what's happening in Central and South America with iowaska and what's going to happen in the United States with microdosing psilocybin mushrooms. And I see this correlation. Because, you know, history will repeat itself.



[1:19:46] Eric Thorton: Oh, definitely.



[1:19:47] Ashley James: Governments like to duplicate what happens? And so we're looking at -



[1:19:49] Eric Thorton: Correct. So does the medical industry.



[1:19:53] Ashley James: So countries look at each other and go, what worked? What didn't work? Let's repeat that. We want to have legal access to microdosing psilocybin mushroom like many people now have access to clean CBD or THC should they want that. And so what we want -



[1:20:20] Eric Thorton: You can go with THC. You can go to a facility that's monitored. And you know, it's not going to be laced with something else. So it's much safer and better for sleep or anxiety and the other. But it's not mixed with something else to get you hooked on it. And so it's just the product. So in that case, it's a good thing.



[1:20:42] Ashley James: Now, does pot - does marijuana have microdosing? Could it have the same neuroplasticity effects? Or is it just two different of a plant?



[1:20:54] Eric Thorton: Well, it's different effects. So you're comparing apples and grapes.



[1:20:59] Ashley James: And motorcars.



[1:21:00] Eric Thorton: Yeah. They're just different. So there are benefits, obviously, to THC and CBD and the different types of CBDs and other things.



[1:21:13] Ashley James: Cannabinoids.



[01:21:14] Eric Thorton: Cannabinoids and the -- I forgot -



[1:21:16] Ashley James: Terpenes.



[1:21:20] Eric Thorton: Terpenes. Terpenes. Yeah. And they're just discovering it in our country. They discovered it in other countries. But we have to rediscover everything in our country. But by allowing that in, then we start getting the benefits of it. And, of course, the corporations don't like that. So they want to take the active ingredients and either duplicate them or refine them and then patent that. Well, that's a corporation. That's not an evil. That's a corporation that -



[1:21:54] Ashley James: Wants to make money.



[1:21:54]  Eric Thorton: -- that is designed to make profit and give money to their people who buy their stock. That's not evil. But you get 50 corporations building on it. And pretty soon you've got something that's not THC anymore or not cannabinoids anymore. And you're creating something else.



[1:22:12] Ashley James: And then they lobby for certain laws. And then you know, if they're - that's the problem, we need corporations that want win-win situations and good for all. But we've talked about that before. I'd like to know, maybe you could ask the guides, are there other substances or other techniques that people could use to increase neuroplasticity likes psilocybin?



[1:22:39] Eric Thorton: Well, I mean, we've already talked about the LSD. We talked about iowaska.



[1:22:44] Ashley James: Right. But I mean, like a household - you know, some things that are legal or techniques.



[1:22:52] Eric Thorton: The guides are good. And I understand this. They're going careful because there are. But psilocybin is a poison. And in too much, it causes the wrong type. And the same with iowaska and things like that. They are little poisons. And if you get the wrong ones, even the wrong mushrooms with psilocybin, will kill you.



[1:23:18] Ashley James: Are there - so I'll reach out. I'll change my question. Are their natural and not poisonous supplements out there that can have the same or similar effects as psilocybin?



[1:23:35] Eric Thorton: Cheese.



[1:23:36] Ashley James: Cheese?



[1:23:37] Eric Thorton: Yeah.



[1:23:39] Ashley James: That's funny.



[1:23:41] Eric Thorton: Yeah. Cheese, fat. We get addicted to fat and it gives us an experience that's not us. It calms us. It makes us feel like we're coming out of euphoria. It changes who you are. It changes your body. And it's an addiction. Now, I don't know if you can microdose cheese and get a benefit from it. But we get addicted to foods the same way. Meat causes the same addiction. So does sugar. And these are stronger reactions. What it does is, it causes your body, the bacteria in your intestine to send a signal to your brain to tell you to get more of that. And it slowly changes your neuroplasticity of your brain. It's a slower product. But it is doing it. And so if you took that - the guys are agreeing with that - and you could slowly - if you gave a person piece of cheese and give them at that right moment, you could technically implant a new idea.



[1:25:01] Ashley James: That's funny.



[1:25:02] Eric Thorton: That's funny. And it is. And I've never been asked that question before. Never. And they're just showing me what food does. They literally show me, everyday stuff that you eat and how it creates these and creates the direction your neuroplasticity is going. Once you get addicted to cheese, cow's milk, the fats, it has changed your whole life. And not necessarily in a good direction.



[1:25:36] Ashley James: I did an episode on cheese. I really recommend listeners to and search. In the search bar, search cheese. Listen to that episode. It is so good. And it's a short one. But it's very impactful. Lots of great information. When I say short, I mean like 45 minutes is short to me. But it's a really good episode because - I want to say it was Dr. Bernard.



[1:26:04] Eric Thorton: So you actually interviewed somebody about -



[1:26:05] Ashley James: About cheese. It was Dr. Bernard. A really great guy in the whole food plant based world. He looks like 40. If you look at his pictures, you're like that is a handsome doctor. He's, like, in his 70s and he looks 40.



[1:26:18] Eric Thorton: That's phenomenal.



[1:26:17] Ashley James: Yeah. And he's whole food plant based, you know, vegan. And he wrote a whole book on cheese. And it's great because when - I mean, I know I'm lactose intolerant. I'm totally allergic to milk and I know I shouldn't eat it. But back when I did eat cheese, Duffy and I would sit and we go to Costco and get a brick of Tillamook and we just sit there and watch TV on like a Sunday afternoon and -



[1:26:44] Eric Thorton: Get high on cheese.



[1:26:46] Ashley James: We would literally get high on cheese. The two of us, we polish off a brick of Tillamook in a weekend. And we'd sit there and we slice off little thin slices at a time. Just like micro dosing one bite at a time. A whole brick of cheese, oh, man. That Tillamook. But it does. It totally affects the brains. So the whole interview was about how cheese - because concentrated addiction. It's those chemicals that affect the brain.

So Dr. Joel Fuhrman said something really funny. Because I've been studying diets. And I think many listeners would agree with me that when you start feeling really good on a diet, you think it's the right diet for you. We're basing it on our symptoms. So if we start feeling good like, "Oh, wow. I feel really good after that meal. This must be the right way to eat." So people don't go ketogenic. Man, after that the three eggs and bacon, I feel so - or whatever -



[1:27:49] Eric Thorton: Right. The fat.



[1:27:50] Ashley James: After that butter on my steak or after that Tillamook cheese, I feel so good. Or after that keto shake, I feel - people will say, I feel really good on fat or on cheese. And Dr. Joel Fuhrman, who I've also interviewed, said -



[1:28:06] Eric Thorton: That's why the keto diet is so popular.



[1:28:08] Ashley James: Right. Because the people feel really - people feel really good. But he says, "Listen. If you judge a diet based on how you feel, cocaine will make you feel amazing. It doesn't mean it's good for you." And I was like, "Oh my gosh." My entire world exploded - imploded at that point. Because I thought, I've been judging diets based on how I feel. And it's actually based on - it had to be based on, obviously, the science and what's going on in the brain and what's going on hormonally, and what's going on in the gut. And we have to look at that.



[1:28:48] Eric Thorton: If you did mushrooms everyday, psilocybin, it would do the same thing that cheese does. Because you lose the ability for the hallucinations with psilocybin. And all you get is a little bit of euphoric feeling from it, which is what cheese does. And at that moment, when you guys were doing those bricks of Tillamook, if you were listening to commercial, they're brainwashing you.



[1:29:15] Ashley James: Very interesting. So when we eat foods like cheese or highly processed hyper -



[1:29:21] Eric Thorton: Anything that's in the book, the Pleasure Trap.



[1:29:24] Ashley James: The Pleasure Trap is a great book. And I recommend getting the audio version of the Pleasure Trap because Chef AJ is the narrator. And I love her. She's great. I also interviewed her. That's a good episode as well. Because she shares how she healed her colon cancer with the whole food plant based diet. But also that she healed her food addiction with it as well. So that's a really good interview. Very interesting. I love how this conversation led to this because we are dosing ourselves daily with foods that are causing our brains to be more susceptible to receiving subconscious messages from marketing.



[1:30:13] Eric Thorton: What is yesterday? What was yesterday? That's a cheeseburger day?



[1:30:18] Ashley James: No.



[1:30:18] Eric Thorton: Yes. And what do they show? The thing you're addicted to in a cheeseburger the most is the cheese. Second is the meat. So they're showing the cheese dripping all over, blah, blah, blah. And it goes back to the feeling that you and Duffy had when you were eating the Tillamook. Just the implant from looking at that, associate it with that, and it goes into, and then you are brainwashed to go get a hamburger, and to have the meat, and to have the blah, blah, blah.



[1:30:51] Ashley James: So I just watched - my husband and I just went to a documentary. They had this one global event where they released this documentary called The Game Changers.



[1:31:01] Eric Thorton: I saw that.



[1:31:01] Ashley James: Did you go see it?



[1:31:02] Eric Thorton: Thursday.



[1:31:03] Ashley James: No. Monday.



[1:31:04] Eric Thorton: No. Monday. Were you there?



[1:31:05] Ashley James: Did you see it? We went to Northgate.



[1:31:07] Eric Thorton: We were at Redmond. Yeah. Phenomenal.



[1:31:08] Ashley James: Yeah. Wasn't it amazing? It was so good.



[1:31:12] Eric Thorton: I mean, I like it better than Forks Over Knives.



[1:31:13] Ashley James: It was the best.



[1:31:13] Eric Thorton: Because it's not convicting or micromanaging. It was just presenting.



[1:31:19] Ashley James: It was just presenting great information. 



[1:31:20] Eric Thorton: Great information.



[1:31:21] Ashley James: My husband I want to - I'm talking about him like a third person like he's not sitting right beside me. Because he doesn't have a microphone on. But we want to get it and get our family to watch it. I mean, it was great. We went with Naomi. Hi, Naomi. She's one of the listeners. And it was outstanding. What I loved the most was seeing that this woman was a cyclist and she went on the whole food plant based diet. And she was getting better.




[1:31:53] Eric Thorton: Olympic cyclist.



[1:31:53] Ashley James: She's an Olympic cyclist. But she was getting better and better times. And so they couldn't kick her off the team even though she was the oldest person who had ever been on the Olympic cycling team, I think ever.



[1:32:05] Eric Thorton: Right. Ever.



[1:32:06] Ashley James: She goes, "Just my times kept getting better and better so they couldn't kick me off. They had to invite me to the Olympics."  And she was 39-and-a-half. The oldest of anyone in her class who had ever cycled in the Olympics. And she won - she brought home the gold at 39-and-a half. There was a heavyweight or weightlifter dude and he was 40, and he brought home the gold, I think. And she talked about that when you drink beet juice before you workout, it increases your endurance something like 33%.



[1:32:43] Eric Thorton: It's a high dose. It's a high thing. Beet juice creates the environment for the most nitrous oxide. And causing the endothelium to shrink more blood flow to your legs, to your muscles, more lubrication to your myofascial so you can run faster and jump higher for longer periods of time. Your oxygen is better because you're getting more blood physically to the muscles you're using. It's phenomenal. And they show that. They show the scientific, the animation of it in that movie. And I've recommended to one person already. But the beet juice is the highest concentrate of what you need to do that. But close behind it are all the greens. And there's so many fruits, vegetables of all sorts. And that's why athletes are changing over.  How about the thing about what does gladiator me?



[1:33:44] Ashley James: Oh, that was hilarious.



[1:33:43] Eric Thorton: Barley and mushroom eaters.



[1:33:45] Ashley James: Yeah, yeah.



[1:33:46] Eric Thorton: Or barley something eater.



[1:33:47] Ashley James: It meant barley and green eaters - or no. Sorry. It was bean and green -



[1:33:54] Eric Thorton: Bean and barley. Bean and barley eaters.



[1:33:55] Ashley James: Bean and barley eaters. That was it. The word gladiator translated into - because the gladiators themselves who we think are -



[1:34:05] Eric Thorton: Meat eaters.



[1:34:05] Ashley James: We think they're meat eaters because they're these elite athletes from thousands of years ago were actually - were predominantly vegetarian.



[1:34:14] Eric Thorton: They could tell by the concentration of their bones.



[1:34:17] Ashley James: Yeah. So I found that the whole movie was fascinating. But how it relates to this discussion is, the neuroplasticity of the brain and our ability to heal. What I've seen over and over again is when people clean up their diet, and you can confirm -



[1:34:39] Eric Thorton: I totally confirm it.



[1:34:40] Ashley James: That when we clean up our diet, we remove the hyper palatable foods that are hijacking the brain and the gut. And the gut affects our brain because the gut produces our serotonin, our neurotransmitters. It also - and I just recently learned this because I'm taking a course through FDN. It's an advanced course through Functional Diagnostic Nutrition for health coaches. And I learned that 25% of the body's T3 is converted in the gut. So when we have this biosis, then you go to an MD and you say, "I'm really tired." Well, you're eating the standard American diet or the standard Canadian or standard Australian diet, whatever. You're eating the standard marketed to us diet. Processed food -



[1:35:20] Eric Thorton: Corporate diets.



[1:35:22] Ashley James: Corporate diet. We're eating the corporate diet, hyperpalatable foods of salt, sugar, and oil, and animal products, and flour. And we go to our MD because we're tired. The MD says, "Oh, well, you know, you're 40 and you're tired. And you have a few pounds on. So it's probably your thyroid that says you're tired." And then he sees your T3 is low and then he puts you on a synthetic T3. Meanwhile, your thyroid is fine. But it was your - I mean, it could just be, for example, your gut or your liver. Your liver plays a huge role in your in your thyroid hormones. But they don't even look.



[1:35:57] Eric Thorton: They don't. They don't because they don't want to undo their treatment system. The medical service system is where they make their money. I have to convince - one of the things that we do here is we look at the individual and what they specifically need. It all comes down to we all need to be whole food plant based. We're talking about that. But some people can get away with some meat. But there's nobody can get away with fat.



[1:36:26] Ashley James: The standard corporate diet.



[1:36:30] Eric Thorton: The standard corporate diet, nobody can. And they go, "Well, I'm not dying." It's hard to convince people that their thyroid will correct. Everything will correct if they give it the right fuel. And it's the same, we're talking about psilocybin therapy. It's the same with your brain. You give it the right fuel and it's going to change. It's going to change the neuroplasticity. That's why cheese affects that. That's why food affects similarly to hallucinogens. When you asked that question the guy just came and just downloading. He looks like, "Oh my gosh.



[1:37:06] Ashley James: Right. It's fascinating. That the brain - we can go out and we can get high off of legal food. But you're saying that the drawback -



[1:37:16] Eric Thorton: You don't get any higher doing microdosing of psilocybin than you do with eating Tillamook cheese. Literally, you don't get any higher. I mean, Tillamook cheese actually gives you this euphoric feeling that's amazing. Tillamook or any cheese. I'm not picking on Tillamook. Sorry.



[1:37:35] Ashley James: Oh, no. It's delicious.



[1:37:37] Eric Thorton: It's a delicious cheese.



[1:37:37] Ashley James: If you're going to do cheese -



[1:37:40] Eric Thorton: You do Tillamook. 



[1:37:43] Ashley James: And we should start thinking about flour, sugar, oil, and animal products like street drugs. Are you doing eggs? Are you doing eggs and cheese? I mean, it's like, are you doing meth? Right?



[1:37:59] Eric Thorton: That's what I do. That's what I do with my kids. So you're still doing me. Okay.



[1:38:04] Ashley James: And not a point of judgment but a point of awakening and recognition that these foods affect the brain. And we can affect that brain -



[01:38:16] Eric Thorton: And that's proven.



[1:38:16] Ashley James: - in a positive way or a negative way. It's proven. But I've seen it so many times with my clients that when they clean up their diet, they're able to do emotional healing work so much easier.  Because the inflammation is gone. The brain isn't hyper-excited from these foods. The brain isn't hijacked from these foods.



[1:38:39] Eric Thorton: Correct. Right. So I've noticed that with my clients that have taken the plunge and switched over to whole food plant based over the long term. We can get into very different spots. And one, the body is healing itself. And so we start taking the things that are preventing the body from healing itself. And we take away - and then they take away the food items that are preventing the body from healing itself or agitating the immune system. And all of a sudden their brain has time for other things. And their body has time for other things. And it's the priority. You're dying by eating the standard American diet, the standard corporate diets. And so your body has to put everything there, your consciousness there, your subconsciousness there to just stay alive. It's amazing what the body will do too. Because it will keep you alive going even though you're sickly for years and years and years and years. But your experience in life isn't good. You're just experiencing one negative situation to another with your health and your mental capacity. All of a sudden you clean up and the brain has time for spiritual growth.

And you were talking about conspiracy theory. And what the governments do and they want us unaware. When you're sick or sickly, you are obsessed with that. You aren't growing spiritually. So you take it and you become dogmatic. "Okay. I'm exhausted. How do I get to heaven? Okay. Do it this way." And there you go. Or you say, because you're tired, you're exhausted, you don't have anytime left to grow that way.



[1:40:19] Ashley James: And that and the food is what's making us exhausted, the corporate foods.



[1:40:22] Eric Thorton: Right. And if you look at the corporate food structure, there is intent with it because the corporation's want to sell you their products. But there's also that enough intent to create the thought forms, which bring predatory energy to it. And then we pick it up. And then we're being compelled. And the corporations love that part of it. Because they're selling more products. And all they care about selling more products. And they don't look at - again, corporations don't have morals.



[1:40:56]  Ashley James: I think we should ask ourselves - and this is the homework I want to give listeners. Ask yourself for the next week every day at every meal, "Am I compelled to buy this food and eat this? Or can I say no to it? Could I choose a giant bowl of steamed vegetables and just eat that?" And then if you're still hungry, eat something else. But if there's something in you that's compelled to drive to the drive through or compelled to go to the restaurant or compelled to buy the packaged food.



[1:41:26] Eric Thorton: Or compelled to not eat those vegetables. And not eat the fruit, not eat the potatoes that don't have everything all over them.



[1:41:34] Ashley James: Just the baked potatoes.



[1:41:36] Eric Thorton: The baked potatoes.



[ 1:41:38] Ashley James: Or the brown rice or whatever. But if there's something in you -



[1:41:41] Eric Thorton: That's going yuck to something is healthy.



[1:41:41] Ashley James: - that's resisting something healthy or that's compelling you to eat something unhealthy.



[1:41:48] Eric Thorton: There's something beyond you.



[1:41:51] Ashley James: It's not you. 



[1:41:52] Eric Thorton: Yeah. Your body wants what's healthy. I'll give an example with my wife and I. Sometimes we want to go out. That's a problem, right? We found the Mongolian grill, the ones that you're talking about. The normal one doesn't do it.



[1:42:06] Ashley James: It's called Iron Grill. We call it an Iron Gut. They only have two locations here, one in Mill Creek one and one -



[1:42:11]  Eric Thorton: Right. It's a privately owned one.



[1:42:13] Ashley James: One in Monroe. But all the other Mongolian girls are just oil and all this gross stuff.



[1:42:17] Eric Thorton: Oil over the place. They don't even use oil at these two.



[1:42:17] Ashley James: They don't even use oil. I love it.



[1:42:19] Eric Thorton: No oil at all. They don't put it on their grill at all. So we want to go out. So we go to PCC, which is a local coop. And we'll get salad again. And we sit down and we put our dressing up that we bring and we're sitting there going, "Okay. A salad." Take one bite and the body lights up. And you just want to eat that damn salad.



[1:42:46] Ashley James: Yeah. But the brain is going - 



[1:42:48] Eric Thorton: The corporate training -



[1:42:48] Ashley James: The corporate training is like, "No. Not salad again."



[1:42:51] Eric Thorton: I don't want salad.



[1:42:53] Ashley James: I don't like vegetables. This isn't fun.



[1:42:54] Eric Thorton: That didn't work for a caveman that needed to eat the vegetables all the time because there was often no meat. And they had to eat it. And they weren't picky.



[1:43:05] Ashley James: Right. Well, here.



[1:43:06] Eric Thorton: They just ate what was in front of them. But there wasn't the thought forms from the corporations. So they just ate it because it was there. You don't got a chimpanzee wanting the ripe banana. They want all the bananas. And because there's nothing compelling them to become picky and have just the right. So then they don't eat them. So it's a buildup of energy that has created - has brought in evil to it. And we call them corporate thought forms. And those influence in every way they can and they use food to enter your brain, the same way psilocybin does. And I just am fascinated by that. Give a whole new world of healing. The guide - your question did. Thank you.



[1:43:58] Ashley James: Well, you're welcome. But this is what I've been exploring on other episodes, it's been building up to this. This understanding of how important food is to our brain.



[1:44:07] Eric Thorton: It's huge. This, I know. It totally controls your brain, your mood, your hormones throughout your whole body.  And you can look at that - I mean that has become a conspiracy. That no one person did it. It's a corporate lack of value system. I have thought in the past that because we're all governed by the corporate laws of the world. And I have thought in the past that the corporate laws need to have a standard of morals that is required for all corporate law. And one of the morals is do no harm. Doctors have it. Now, they've bent out a bit. But they still have it. Corporate law doesn't have that. And if corporate law, if it had just that one sentence added to corporate law, how much would be different?



[1:45:27] Ashley James: Huge. It would take a lot more precautions.



[1:45:31] Eric Thorton: Right. Do no harm. Instead of allowing - they have a law - you know, the laws in our country allow us not to sue the pharmaceuticals individually. So it's okay for them to do harm. Because that's the only way they can do "science." And that's not true. But they just took away the morals from pharmaceuticals.



[1:45:57] Ashley James: Right. This was a while ago, but I interviewed a woman who called herself a water [inaudible 01:46:04]. And she's quite interesting but what she did professionally before she got into nutrition was she was a scientist for - I think it was Pringles or Doritos or one of those -



[1:46:23] Eric Thorton: Isn't that sad. The scientists for a food company.



[1:46:26] Ashley James: Yeah. It was like a Nestle. It was one of those companies. And her and her team had to make some kind of Doritos be hyperpalatable. They had to always invent new - and I don't know if it was actually Doritos. But it was some kind -



[1:46:45] Eric Thorton: Well, Doritos is very much there.



[1:46:47] Ashley James: And they had to figure out what they could do to just make this addictive. And I asked her some questions about that. About what the intention was behind it. Because she left - eventually left that career. Did she feel there was like an evil intention or intention to harm people? And she says not at all. She said the scientists on the team were scientists. And they were just looking at what could they do to make something really excite the brain. And it was cool. It was science. It was neuroscience. What could they do to put a chemical on the tongue and make the brain light up like cocaine? And that was fun for them. And they came up with all kinds of interesting chemicals and interesting fat and carbohydrate mixed with chemical ratios to make the brain light up ten times more than cocaine. So there wasn't a, "Hahaha. We're going to hurt people." It was more just like they were given a task, they're scientists. It was compartmentalize. And they had fun.



[1:47:52] Eric Thorton: [Inaudible 01:47:52] and compartmentalized.



[1:47:54] Ashley James: And they had fun doing it because that was their task as a scientist. And then of course, she saw the big picture and saw how much the food industry was harming people. And so her idea was to then focus on how to make foods delicious in a wholesome way.

But that that was her background. So I just thought that was really interesting that her experience wasn't that she didn't feel like the corporation was looking to harm people. It just wants to make money. But the problem is that they don't have the values or the morals behind it to not want to do harm.



[1:48:34] Eric Thorton: Well, if the confirmation bias - they call that - it's there just to look at the benefits of this. If they also were compelled to do no harm, they would have to look at the whole picture. And then they would discover what she discovered, and she could no longer be there. But instead, their confirmation bias, they're looking for this. This boxed in thing and it's framed in, this is all you're looking for so don't look for anything beyond that frame. Well, if the government said, "Okay. You have to look beyond that frame."



[1:49:06] Ashley James: Here are your constraints as a business.



[1:49:09] Eric Thorton: Here it is. You have to do no harm to the human body. No harm. And that includes anyone who does research on it can say, "Okay. That disodium phosphate that they discovered and Lay's discovered. Instead of monosodium glutamate, they put disodium phosphate in. And [inaudible 01:49:29] the chemical that does that." Well, what does it do to your gut? What does it do to - and there's other chemicals too. But what does it do to your brain? What does it - why is it doing that?



[1:49:38] Ashley James: So what does disodium phosphate do to the body?



[1:49:40] Eric Thorton: It's an addiction. And so they've eliminated monosodium glutamate because it got a bad name.



[1:49:47] Ashley James: Right. MSG is bad. But they just replaced it with something else.



[1:49:49] Eric Thorton: They replaced it with something else to drive you. And that hasn't been investigated yet. Only the benefits of it have been investigated.



[1:49:59] Ashley James: It's so funny because when I make home baked fries - so I don't fry it with oil. I cut up a potato. I bake in the oven. I can put a little nutritional yeast or Bragg's or something on it, you know, make it taste salty. And it's a potato fry or air fry or that kind of thing. You eat one serving, you're full, you're done. But if you were to eat potato chips -



[1:50:28] Eric Thorton: You eat three times as much or five times as much.



[1:50:29] Ashley James: - you can't stop because of the chemicals they put on it.



[1:50:33] Eric Thorton: And the combination of the chemicals. Exactly.



[1:50:36] Ashley James: And that's hijacking the brain.



[1:50:38] Eric Thorton: It's hijacking the brain.



[1:50:40] Ashley James: And bypassing the internal thermostat that says their full.



[1:50:43] Eric Thorton: Therefore they're doing harm. So they couldn't do that if that little law was there.



[1:50:50] Ashley James: Right. So we have to take it upon ourselves that law. We have to really recognize that corporations do not have that law. As individuals we do. Like, you can't go and do harm to your neighbor. You're in a world of hurt if you do. But a corporation can do harm to millions of people and get away with it. So we, as individuals, have to be informed consumers. Everything we put in our mouth, we have to be diligent just like you would with a supplement or the pharmaceutical. We have to choose to look at the side effects. Look at the studies. Look at where it came from. That's why a whole food plant based diet is so easy because it's like, "Here's broccoli."



[1:51:29] Eric Thorton: Yep. There it is.



[1:51:31] Ashley James: Three it is. It's safe.



[1:51:32] Eric Thorton: And if you can get an organic, better.



[1:51:34] Ashley James: Even better.



[1:51:35] Eric Thorton: Even better. And broccoli, some people it's not their favorite thing. But there's ways of dealing with that broccoli that can make it absolutely be whole food plant based and be delicious. I just discovered something last night. I'm going to mention it on your blog here so other people can do it. I was cooking them. I cooked greens. They were Swiss chard. And I put in a pressure cooker for four minutes with some water and some garlic and some smoke. And the Swiss chard -



[1:52:10] Ashley James: When you say smoke -



[1:52:11] Eric Thorton: Liquid smoke.



[1:52:12] Ashley James: Liquid smoke, okay. Tiny bit because that stuff is strong.



[1:52:13] Eric Thorton: A tiny bit. It's very strong. And so I just did that recipe up and I got done. It was a little bit bitter and I like bitter. But I thought, "You know, there's combinations that can do - that the human body likes. And we like sweet-sour, sweet- bitter, sweet- smoky. We like sweet with different combinations" And I thought, "Hm. A little bit of apple juice on this would be amazing." And oh my god -



[1:52:42] Ashley James: It was really good?



[1:52:43] Eric Thorton: It was amazing.



[1:52:44] Ashley James: Swiss chard is a little, too, like stringent for me. But if I did that recipe, I think I'd like it.



[1:52:50] Eric Thorton: I just put it on [inaudible 01:52:51] like you would vinegar on it or something. Abd [inaudible 01:52:55] apples. Well, let's put apple juice on it. It was like, "Oh."

And it's made it worth eating. I mean, it was delicious.



[1:53:06] Ashley James: That's awesome.



[1:53:08] Eric Thorton: I thought, "Oh. I must tell people that." So I'm going to sneak it in on my kids and see how they deal with it.



[1:53:18] Ashley James: Nice. I love taking - I mean when I'm really busy, I add - lots of grocery stores do this now. You can get organic pre-shredded vegetables and they have pre-shredded broccoli. So it's just totally shredded broccoli in a bag. And then I love mixing that with avocado.



[1:53:38] Eric Thorton: Oh, I have never done that.



[1:53:38] Ashley James: And then I just mix with my hands. I mix it all together. So there's no dressing needed. Just half an avocado or something and a bag of this stuff and mix it together. And then I'll throw in whatever greens I want. Because the salad or like a handful of sauerkraut - organic sauerkraut that I get from Costco. And it is an explosion of flavor. It's so good it takes you forever to eat because it's so much fiber. But it's so good.



[1:54:05] Eric Thorton: It fills you up though.



[1:54:07] Ashley James: It fills you up. All it will do is fill you up.



[1:54:07] Eric Thorton: Right. With no calorie or very low calories.



[1:54:09] Ashley James: Very low calories. It's healthy fats. And I love getting broccoli because it's so good for the body.



[1:54:16] Eric Thorton: Well, that makes no profit for a corporation. One of the combinations,people will use any excuse for bad behavior. So when I was walking out of that movie, The Game Changers, and this lady goes, "Oh my God. If everybody does this, there'll be unemployment everywhere." And I just went, "Well, if you're going to base your eating off of global employment, well, then fine. But guess what? If everything would shift -



[1:54:49] Ashley James: Right. Well, they said that if - I can't remember whether it was if America - United States went completely whole food plant based, really vegan, or if it was the whole world. I think it was just America.



[1:55:02] Eric Thorton: Just America.



[1:55:02] Ashley James: If America stops eating meat today, then we would clear up the entire - the size of the continent of Africa in terms of the farming that is required to maintain these animals. So it was something like one third of the world, basically, would be free to be forests.



[1:55:24] Eric Thorton: To grow vegetables and forests.



[1:55:26] Ashley James: Grow vegetables. But that only -



[1:55:28] Eric Thorton: Repairs it.



[1:55:28] Ashley James: That's only 20% of our farmland in the world is used to make non-meat.



[1:55:35] Eric Thorton: I think it's less. It think it's 15%.



[1:55:37] Ashley James: It was crazy. It was just crazy. So the numbers - basically, if we didn't grow meat, then the employment would be to grow vegetables, have local farms. I think there's a lot of benefits too. But that's fine if her first thought was all the unemployment. All those poor people that work in the meat factories, that's just the available job. They don't actually like working there.



[1:55:59] Eric Thorton: No. So anyway, it's a tough - these things that open up our brain for change are not only in our regular diet, but you can also do it, like we say, with microdosing. And we have to be very cautious when you open up our brain in our daily life to any thing. Like, I guess, I won't meditate in groups because we're opening yourself up. Well, that's the same with food -



[1:56:37] Ashley James: Opening ourselves up every day.



[1:56:38] Eric Thorton: Opening ourselves up every day.



[1:56:38] Ashley James: People that go hang out McDonald's together and eat a Big Mac, they're opening themselves up.



[1:56:42] Eric Thorton: So the same thing that cocaine does and things like that. And again, I remember the name of the book, The Pleasure Trap. And it's like, "Read it." You'll understand the chemical reaction going on. And it's very similar to psilocybin. And it's food. Every time you get mushrooms, you got psilocybin. And we all love mushrooms. And it's because it gives you that same non-high level, it gives you the euphoria that cheese and other meats and things like that will give you.



[1:57:16] Ashley James: So we can find in a healthy form, like mushrooms -



[1:57:19] Eric Thorton: Cook them.



[1:57:20] Ashley James: Yeah. Cook mushrooms. But if we ate raw mushrooms, would we get  - I mean raw Portobello, would we get neurological benefits?



[1:57:32] Eric Thorton: Well, it opens you up for suggestion. There's no neurological benefits to it.



[1:57:37] Ashley James: So eat a Portobello raw and then go to your therapist.



[1:57:41] Eric Thorton: Bring your Portobello to the therapists and eat it while you're - that is an interesting thing that would be worth investigating.



[1:57:51] Ashley James: Right. I'm going to eat a pound Crimini or Portobello mushrooms and then I'm going to come see you and see what happens.



[1:57:58] Eric Thorton: So that would be really interesting to investigate that, wouldn't it? But the guides just made that absolute correlation, you are opening up the power of - to opening up to suggestion. And that's what has to be so careful about psilocybin therapy.



[1:58:15] Ashley James: Well, no one wants to be duped. And we're being duped by marketing all the time. The thought forms, the corporate suggestions, we really need to sit back in quiet time. I think we need to reflect without a screen in front of us, without any media pouring into us. We need to sit quietly and journal and think about and contemplate this thought, "What are my beliefs and what are the beliefs that have been implanted in me from corporations -"



[1:58:51] Eric Thorton: Corporate interests.



[1:58:53] Ashley James: Corporate interests.



[1:58:54] Eric Thorton: Right. No morals. And if they do have morals, they've made them.



[1:59:00] Ashley James: And they're not our morals. But they've made them for the purpose of profit and power.



[1:59:07] Ashley James: Yeah. And we don't want to be duped anymore.



[1:59:10] Eric Thorton: We don't want to be duped. We're realizing that it does - how it does chemically, change the body to eat these foods of any sort. And the benefits and the control that can happen with that. And that's why I will work with people that do uncontrolled hallucinogenic stuff. Just like now, I got to look at it from food. That's going to be interesting healing sessions. But the uncontrolled and what's happened to them versus a controlled situation. And the benefits you can get from that.



[1:59:48] Ashley James: Controlled, meaning a microdose psilocybin mushrooms -



[1:59:52] Eric Thorton: With the proper therapy.



[1:59:53] Ashley James: - with the doctor, with therapy, with working with you.



[1:59:58] Eric Thorton: So that's where we need to go with this stuff. And that's where the benefit I've had with my clients.



[2:00:04] Ashley James: Well, it's just fascinating that people with schizophrenia are able to not have schizophrenic episodes. Is it lessened schizophrenic episodes or no schizophrenic episodes with psilocybin?



[2:00:16] Eric Thorton: From what I have read - because I've only had a couple patients that it has gotten rid of them.



[2:00:24] Ashley James: Gotten rid of the schizophrenic episodes.



[2:00:27] Eric Thorton: The schizophrenic episodes for a period of time. And  it's gotten rid of the bipolar behavior for a period of time. Now, if you're just getting the microdose from the doctor but not doing any of the homework -



[2:00:43] Ashley James: On emotional work.



[2:00:43] Eric Thorton:-  on the emotional work and things like that, what's firing up - because schizophrenia is fired off in the brain that can have schizophrenia. It's fired off by an emotional reaction. Well, if you can get to the emotional reactions, you're going to win the psilocybin therapy wears off a year later. You're going to have less things that trip you into the schizophrenic or bipolar episode. So you are healing it but you've got to do the work. Not just go down and get the thing once a year or once every six months, it varies from person to person. And just keep - you can, you can just keep doing that or you can do -



[2:01:20] Ashley James: But there's no growth in that.



[2:01:23] Eric Thorton: There's no growth. If you can find out what it's all about, why, what triggers it, then you are in control. Not the doctors. So that's where we go.



[2:01:34] Ashley James: Very cool. So for those who are interested in learning more about how they can work with you or discover a practitioner that will do psilocybin with them and microdoses in a safe environment and do the therapy, they can contact you, And that it's not legal in every state or country. So that's needs to be taken into account. But can get it.



[2:02:03] Eric Thorton: It's their decision.



[2:02:03] Ashley James: But there are people in different states that even though it's not legal can have access to it with certain doctors that are willing to go against the laws in order to help people. So this is sort of like - I feel like it's, like, ten years ago with marijuana. There's only a matter of time before it's going to be legal. And that people will be able to use it in microdoses for this this type of healing.



[2:02:32] Eric Thorton: For this type. You have to have the following.



[2:02:35] Ashley James: But what we can do now is look at our diet. Because it affects our brain. Every meal, every meal, every -



[2:02:42] Eric Thorton: Every meal, every snack. Everything you put in your body -



[2:02:44] Ashley James: Affects our brain.



[2:02:46] Eric Thorton: And it's different. One last thing here, it's different from one person to the next because of the way your body digests food. And how much damage there is to your digestive system. So you have several factors there. And that's why it's not just a one thing fits all.



[2:03:09] Ashley James: I'm reading a really interesting book right now. It's called The Metabolic Typing Diet. And I'm enjoying the story and the science. I don't necessarily agree with the diet because there's a lot of meat in it. But it's interesting what these doctors, these clinicians found is that we metabolize - people metabolize differently depending on their autonomic nervous system, depending on their oxidative stress, depending on their alkalinity. They found seven different key factors in the metabolism that determine how food affects us.



[2:03:46]  Eric Thorton: Well, and then you have to add in which they're not obviously not looking at yet, the psychology of it. And what we're talking about,  the addicting factors. So like I in the work here, we look at all of that for each individual. Different set of circumstances for everybody that comes in. Because I listen to their guidance. So we can take them through whatever they've chosen to do. If you look at it as an individual instead of a corporate formula, you're going to get far better care.



[2:04:22] Ashley James: Is there anything you'd like to say or share to wrap up today's interview? I think that the guides really want to make sure that we say to clearly package this interview.



[2:04:33] Eric Thorton: Well, let's look at how the things we put in our mouth affect our brain and our body and our digestion. And it affects every single person that is currently alive in the physical body.



[2:04:46] Ashley James: If you have a pulse.



[2:04:47] Eric Thorton: Yes. If you have a pulse, it affects you. Denial will get you nowhere. It keeps you right where you're at, which is fine if you're happy with it.



[2:04:55] Ashley James: I'll share this quick story. I just had a late night phone call with a friend. I called her as we were driving home, our son fell asleep in the car. We picked him up from grandma's after watching the movie The Game Changers, Monday night. Really good movie. It's coming out digitally soon so everyone could watch it. Everyone needs to watch it.



2:05:13 Eric Thorton: I hope so. Everyone needs to watch it.



[2:05:14] Ashley James: It was really well done. James Cameron, who's the guy that directed Avatar.



[2:05:19] Eric Thorton: And directing the new one currently.



[2:05:23] Ashley James: Right. Currently directing Avatar 2. He's the mastermind behind it. So it was really well done. Even people who are totally convinced they'll never give up meat, you should still watch it because it was very entertaining. But it was really funny too. But anyway, we're driving home and I immediately had to call a friend who's a - she lives in Texas. She lives in a hospital with her friend who is quadriplegic. And she's the caregiver for this quadriplegic who has had the same bedsore that Christopher Reeves died from. And the doctors and nurses are telling my friend you know - they keep reminding my friend, "Christopher Reeves, multimillionaire, died from this. Your friend isn't going to make it." April, the person who's experiencing the bedsore, she has been in three different facilities. And she'd be fine with me sharing this, I know that. I know her. And the first facility - so I sent them a blender and I said, "Put vegetables in the blender and feed April smoothies." Because she fell and broke her neck well down in Texas. And she can't really chew food. And so I sent them a blender and I said - because the hospital food is horrible, I said, "Just blend vegetables. Drink it." And so the first month, there was huge healing. And she just didn't allow April to have any of the hospital food. And they got the doctors on board. Just vegetables and smoothies and almond milk or whatever and drink it, and the healing was amazing. Of course, they're doing all their therapies on it.

And then they transferred April to a different hospital who, for one month, did not allow April to have any vegetables. They said no. They only gave her some kind of protein shake with fake nutrients in it. And she got worse. And then transferred to a different hospital, and now starting to get better again. And the whole time ,it's antibiotic after antibiotic. And all these - they're throwing everything they have allopathically. But the diet, she was doing really bad. Then got on the vegetables and the smoothie, started healing amazingly and responding to their therapies. Then was taken off that diet and started getting worse. Then was put back on the diet and started getting better.



2:08:04 Eric Thorton: Right. It's all because of antioxidants. We're the only mammal that doesn't produce antioxidants. We have to eat them. And they only come from fruits and vegetables. They reduce the oxidative stress. The body could heal even while sitting on the wound.



[2:08:20] Ashley James: Right. And it's just amazing that hospitals feed complete crap to people wanting them to get better.



[2:08:26] Eric Thorton: Right. It's just amazing that they do. There's nothing - there's no value to their food.



[2:08:33] Ashley James: So coming back to the original point, because people are interested in the emotional and mental healing that had taken place with microdosing psilocybin or at least curious to learn more about it, which they have today. But what's really interesting is that every single person has the power to shift how their brain heals or shift how their emotions heal through every meal.



[2:08:57] Eric Thorton: Every single one.



[2:08:58] Ashley James: Yeah. Very cool.



[2:08:59] Eric Thorton: It is. It's very cool. And I'm happy to be a part of whatever people want me to help them with.



[2:09:07] Ashley James: Yeah. I definitely recommend listeners work with you. I've had amazing experiences working with you as it has my husband, as it has my friends. It's a pleasure to be here again today, Eric.



[2:09:17] Eric Thorton: Always.



[2:09:18] Ashley James: Thank you so much for coming back on the show.



[2:09:20] Eric Thorton: Thank you for having me.



[2:09:21] Ashley James: Absolutely. And listeners can go to Learn True Health Facebook Group and type any questions you have for Eric because he's a regular on the show. And you guys can ask questions.



[2:09:30] Eric Thorton: I'd love to hear them. That's a great idea. I'd love to hear them. We could do a show just on questions people write in.



[2:09:36] Ashley James: Yeah. Awesome. All right. Terrific. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure being with you again.



[2:09:39] Eric Thorton: Thank you too, also. However you say that.



[2:09:46] Outro: Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition? And how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity. Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business and support people in their success? Do you love helping people?

You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program. And it really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over a hundred dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition. But from a standpoint of how we can help people to shift their life and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health. I definitely recommend you check them out. You can Google Institute for Integrative Nutrition or IIN and give them a call. Or you can go to and you can receive a free module of their training to check it out and see if it's something that you'd be interested in. Be sure to mention my name Ashley James and the Learn True Health podcast because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program. And I'm such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information.

We need more health coaches. In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctors offices, you can work in hospitals. You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help your local schools shift their programs to help children be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success and their health goals. There's so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach.

So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. Mention my name, get the best deal. Give them a call and they'll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month. So you're going to want to call them now and check it out. And if you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.

Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price? For high quality supplements and to talk to someone about what supplements are best for you, go to and one of our fantastic true health coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are the highest quality and the best price. That's That's Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program.


Get Connected With Eric Thorton!

Official Website



Recommended Reading by Eric Thorton

Educating the Souls, Spiritual Healing and our Eternal Psychology


Check out other interviews of Eric Thorton!

Episode 380: Understanding Your Aura

Episode 375: Spiritual Healing In The Real World

Episode 359: Lives Of Discovery

Episode 336: Energetic Boundaries (Part II)

Episode 335: Energetic Boundaries

Episode 327: Spiritual Healing

Oct 11, 2019

Become A Health Coach-Learn More About The Institute for Integrative Nutrition's Health Coaching Certification Program by checking out these four resources:

1) Integrative Nutrition's Curriculum Guide:

2) The IIN Curriculum Syllabus:

3) Module One of the IIN curriculum:

4) Get three free chapters of Joshua Rosenthal's book:

Watch my little video on how to become a Certified Health Coach!


More about Dr. Campbell-McBride:
BOOK: Gut and Psychology Syndrome
BOOK: Vegetarianism Explained
BOOK: Put Your Heart in Your Mouth


The GAPS Diet


  • GAPS or Gut And Psychology Syndrome
  • Diet as a natural cure for many psychiatric and neurological conditions
  • GAPS diet
  • Symptoms of GAPS
  • Normal and abnormal gut flora
  • Antibiotics in food
  • The body’s reaction to undigested food
  • Rebuilding the gut lining, heal and seal the gut wall
  • Sources of toxicity in the body
  • Babies are born with high toxic load and acquire abnormal gut flora
  • FPIES or Food Protein-Induced Enterocolitis Syndrome
  • Recovery by using the GAPS nutritional protocol
  • GAPS diet is for a lifetime
  • Allergies and the GAPS diet
  • The role of cholesterol and fats
  • Vegetarianism and vegan diet – Veganism is not a diet. It is a form of fasting
  • Eat when you are hungry
  • Trust, listen, and work with your body


Have you ever wondered how our guts play a major role in our body? In today’s episode, Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride will share with us GAPS, the normal and abnormal gut flora and how our body reacts to food.


[0:00] Intro: Hello, true health seekers. And welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health Podcast.

I am so, so honored today to have with us Dr. Campbell-McBride. She’s a nutritionist, a medical doctor, neurologist, and neurosurgeon. She’s the creator of the GAPS diet, which stands for Gut And Psychology Syndrome. Her diet heals the gut, eliminates leaky gut syndrome, and thus helps to heal the nervous system. Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride shares that the GAPS diet helped cure her first son of autism. She now widely promotes the diet as a natural cure for many psychiatric and neurological conditions, including autism, asthma, allergies, food sensitivities, ADD and ADHD, dyspraxia, dyslexia, depression, schizophrenia, Tourette’s Syndrome, bipolar disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, eating disorders, gout, and childhood bedwetting.

It is so fascinating to hear the relationship between gut health and our brain and our nervous system and our immune system. And you’re going to love all the things that Dr. Campbell-McBride shares today.

As you’re listening to this episode and if you really geek out on this kind of information, learning about different diets that heal the body in a certain way, and you want to learn more about all the dietary theories out there that helped to heal different issues in the body really using food as medicine, consider becoming a student at IIN, the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. This is the online school that I went to, to become a health coach. It’s a year-long training program designed for busy, busy moms and dads or busy working people that also want to learn this information. So they make it in a way that allows you to do it in your free time. Listen to these great audios and watch these videos that you can fit it into your everyday life.

And in the course of a year, you learn a hundred dietary theories and all the ways in which you can heal the body with food. You also learn how to help others. So whether you want to become a health coach to help others or just have another tool in your tool belt to help your friends and family and help yourself, IIN has an amazing program. It was really life changing for me and I’ve said this before in the podcast, I would have done the program just for myself. Just for the personal growth that it gave me. And then in addition to that, it added more tools in my tool belt to help others. So if you’d like to learn more information, you can go to That’s and it allows you to take one of their modules for free to see if it’s something that interests you.

If you have any questions about IIN or going through it as a student and want to know more about the experience, please feel free to reach out to me. You can reach out to me through Facebook and our Facebook Group, the Learn True Health Facebook Group. Or you can email me, and I’d love to answer any questions you may have about my experience about going through it as a student. There are actually dozens of people, dozens of listeners that have gone through their program and become health coaches that are also in our Facebook Group. So you can just post in our Facebook Group, the Learn True Health Facebook Group, any questions you have, and not only will I answer them, but others will answer it so you’ll get an even deeper picture of what it’s like to go through their program.

Excellent. Thank you so much for being a listener. Thank you so much for sharing this podcast with those you love. Please share this episode with the mothers and fathers in your life who have children who may have some difficulties with development or with ADD or ADHD, with allergies. This is something that is life changing not only for children but also for adults. I have a friend who this diet saved her life. Because those who have autoimmune conditions as well see great benefit from doing this protocol if they have leaky gut syndrome. So as you’re listening, you may also start to think about all the friends and family that would benefit from hearing this information. So please keep sharing and thank you so much for helping me get this information out there to help as many people as possible to learn true health.



[4:47] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is Episode 385.

I am so excited for today’s guest. We have with us – I feel like it’s I’m like in the presence of a Hollywood celebrity in the health realm – Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride. I have been a big fan of yours. Many of our listeners have been a big fan of yours. And one of my friends who is also a listener says that she would be dead right now if it wasn’t for your protocol. You literally saved her life. And she is the biggest fan girl. Her name is Caroline. She just loves you. So I just want you to know there’s a woman in Seattle who loves you so dearly. People around the world have shared that your protocol has changed their lives. I first saw you on Netflix, actually. The season two, episode one of the Paleo Way. And I was really confused because there are all these diets out there that totally contradict each other.

And what I really get about diets is that it’s about figuring out what your body needs right now. And you have such a scientifically sound protocol to help people heal the brain and heal the gut. You’ve created the GAPS diet. Your website is And we have all the links to everything that Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride in the show notes for today’s podcast Learn True Health. It is such a pleasure to have you here today. Welcome to the show.



[6:26] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Thank you for inviting me. I’m delighted to be here.



[6:29] Ashley James: Absolutely. And thank you for taking the time. Isn’t like 6:00 p.m. your time in London right now?



[6:35] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: It is.



[6:36] Ashley James: Excellent. Well, thank you. Good evening. And I’d love to start by hearing the story. What happened that led you to create the GAPS diet?



[6:50] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Well, I guess it was my fate to create it. Because when I was 18 months old, I fell ill myself and nearly died. I had the food poisoning in the crash. And the food was just going in and coming out. And I was losing weight and literally dying. Until my parents contacted my grandmother – my grandparents in the village who had a smallholding in the village. My grandmother took me there and she healed me. And later on I’ve learned what she healed me with was the GAPS diet, basically. That’s exactly what it was.


[7:28] Ashley James: I love it.



[7:29] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: They have their own – yes. They have their own animals. They have their cow and sheep and chickens and garden and bees and all of that and everything was natural. And my grandmother used to make her own fermented milk from her own milk – raw milk. So that’s what healed me. And then when I got married and moved to Britain, my first child was diagnosed with autism at the age of three. And I knew, I knew instinctively at that point that it’s coming from the digestive tract. Because he had severe digestive problems right from the beginning. So I knew that it’s the diet. That the diet has to fix it. That is the most important thing.

And of course, in those days we didn’t have internet. All I could do is go to the local library and ask for books or whatever. And I came across the specific carbohydrate diet. Because I went to a conference where Elaine Gottschall was speaking. And we made a professional relationship. We became professional friends. And I started that protocol. And then I’ve changed it, evolved it, adding what my grandmother would do. Adding the traditional diets to the traditional wisdom to it. And then my own patients have called it the GAPS diet, standing for Gut And Psychology Syndrome. That’s the abbreviation.

Later on, I’ve added another GAPS strip, Gut And Physiology Syndrome. Because initially, obviously, I focused on autism. And as I was working with autistic children, I realized that their siblings are not healthy either. They have digestive symptoms, they have allergies, asthma, eczema, many of them are clingy, many of them are hyperactive, many of them are fussy eaters. Fussy eating just universally present amongst these children. And I realized that these children are just as well as their autistic sibling is just that they’ve had a different pregnancy, different constitution so they’re not autistic, but they have problems which stem from the same place – from the digestive system.

And as I started putting whole families on the GAPS diet, on the GAPS nutritional protocol, the parents started recovering from chronic fatigue syndrome, from fibromyalgia, from multiple sclerosis, from allergies, from migraines, from chronic cystitis, from all kinds of problems. As well as the siblings and the autistic children. So I realized that this is one condition that indeed, as Hippocrates put it all those thousands of years ago, all diseases begin in the gut. Every one of them, chronic diseases. We’re not talking about acute situations, of course. We’re talking about chronic diseases. That they all begin in the gut. And that’s where the treatment has to begin.

What we have with these people, they have abnormal gut flora. Recent research discovered the fact that 90% of all cells in the human body are in our gut flora, 90%. So our human bodies are only 10%. It’s a shell, a habitat for this mass of microbes that live inside us. That’s our gut flora. And it is a highly organized microbial world in a healthy person with all kinds of microbes are present there. From the bacteria viruses, protozoa, archaea, worms, flukes, all kinds of things have to be there. Because they’re all part of the harmonious community of microbes. They plant each other. They harvest each other. They eat each other. They control each other. They don’t allow one another to get out of control and start causing trouble. And normally, when you have that balanced community of microbes in there, then you are able to digest the food properly and benefit from that food. And it protects you from all kinds of illnesses. It protects you from any kind of reactions of the immune system. Because 85% of our immune system is located in the gut wall.

Our digestive system is a major immune organ in our body. It’s the biggest and the most important immune organ in the body. So any kind of immune abnormality, whether it is a chronic inflammation, or allergy, or autoimmune disease, or anything else, or histamine intolerance or anything else. Look in the gut. Don’t look anywhere else. Look in the gut first. Because that’s where the majority of the immune system is. That is where all the commanding echelons of our immune system are. All the generals, admirals, officers, the commanding echelons. And that’s where all the major decisions are made, in the gut.

So what happens in GAPS people, they have abnormal gut flora. Because we live in the world, which is literally set on damaging our gut flora from the moment of birth even before then. Antibiotics, and not only prescription antibiotics but antibiotics in our food because majority of agricultural chemicals used by our industrial agriculture, which grows our plant foods and then feeds them to our animals and feeds cows and pigs and sheep and chickens with antibiotics on a daily basis. Because that makes them increase weight quicker, grow quicker, so it’s more profitable. So all the industrially produced food that you buy in supermarkets is full of antibiotics. Chemicals which are antibiotics in their nature. Every time we put food in our mouths, we eat antibiotics. Antibiotics kill bacteria. That’s all they can kill, bacteria. These bacteria were eating and controlling fungi, viruses, protozoa, archaea, and other things. When you knock them out, all these other creatures suddenly are not controlled anymore. The balance is gone in the digestive tract. As it is on the overgrow and instead of being a beneficial member of a balanced community, they suddenly become pathogenic. They become villains. They start producing toxic substances and they start damaging the integrity of the gut wall.

A gut wall in the GAPS person is like a [inaudible 00:13:51], it’s got holes in it. So food doesn’t get the chance to get digested properly before it absorbs through these holes into your blood and into your lymph. And then your immune system finds this undigested food in your blood, in your lymph. It doesn’t recognize them as food and attacks them. And this attack, first and foremost, manifests itself as a food allergy or intolerance. So that can show itself as any kind of symptoms under the sun. It can be a drop in your blood pressure. It can be a drop in your blood sugar level. It can be a migraine attack. It can be an asthma attack. It can be a skin rash. It can be a panic attack. It can be about cystitis or anything else. It can be a heart palpitations. Anything at all.

And the symptoms can be immediate or it can be delayed. So on any given day, you have no idea what you’re reacting to. You might be reacting at the same time to something you’ve just eaten for lunch plus something you’ve eaten yesterday plus something you’ve eaten several days ago plus something you’ve eaten two weeks ago. All these reactions overlap on top of each other. In effect, you’re reacting to pretty much all food that you’re eating. Because all food is absorbing partially digested, improperly digested. You’re absorbing a lot of food undigested and you’re reacting to it.

There are many laboratories in the world which now can do testing for you on this food allergies and intolerances. And they tell you to remove this food and remove that food. And I’ve lost count of people who have taken that out and they started removing foods and removing and removing, then finish up with virtually nothing left to eat. They’ve got a few, literally, a handful of foods that they’re eating and they’re still reacting. Because as long as you got this like [inaudible 00:15:44], you are absorbing everything undigested. You’re reacting to everything.

So in the GAPS nutritional protocol, I don’t even recommend doing this testing, particularly for people who have limited funds. It’s expensive to do testing. We work on healing and sealing the gut lining. We rebuild the gut lining for the person. Because the beautiful fact is that, human body doesn’t waste effort on healing sick cells or damaged cells. If a cell is damaged, if a cell is sick, it is killed and removed. And then new baby cells are to replace it. In order to give birth to this baby cells, building materials are required. And the whole process is ruled and orchestrated by the bacteria, by the microbes. Not just bacteria but the whole microbial community in the gut. This beautiful process is called cell regeneration. And it goes on in every organ, every tissue in the human body. In the gut lining this process is very fast, very rapid. The cells which line our gut will only live a few days. They have a very short life. And they get replaced all the time. New baby cells are born all the time.

The problem is if a person has abnormal gut flora, and it’s the gut flora that is in charge of this process, these newly born baby cells get damaged immediately as soon as they’re born. Even before they mutate and they’re unable to fulfill proper functions of digestion and absorption of food. So what we want to do, at the same time, we want to change the gut flora. We want to drive out pathogens. Replace them with the beneficial flora. Restore the diversity of gut flora. Restore the whole harmonious microbial community in the gut. So this process goes right and this baby cells do not get damaged. At the same time in order for the gut lining to give birth to trillions of cells every day, we provide concentrated amounts of building materials for the body to make the cells from. And that is what the GAPS diet provides for the person.

So in effect, what we’re doing, we’re building new gut wall for the person. We’re healing and selling it. So that is one aspect of what happens to Gaps people.

The second thing that happens to GAPS people, because their gut flora is abnormal, the food that comes along is digested by this pathogenic abnormal community of microbes. And they have their own metabolism. They convert food into wastes, various products. And these products then absorbed for the damaged gut lining and finish up in the bloodstream. Many of them, thousands of them, are done by poisonous pathogenic. They go into the bloodstream. They get distributed around the body and cause havoc in every organ and every tissue. At the same time, these microbes all of them have their own metabolism. They produce hormones. In fact, now they produce so many hormones in such huge amounts that now researchers in gut flora have pronounced our gut flora to be the biggest and the most important endocrine organ in the human body.

The flow of hormones that comes from the gut flora is enormous. And of course, when these hormones finish up in our bloodstream, they regulate our hormonal balance. They talk to your thyroid gland, to your pancreas, to your dreams, to your sexual hormones. And they upset it. They unbalance it. As a result, usually typically GAPS people develop low thyroid function. Their adrenal hormones all over the place. Cortisol is usually high through the roof. So these people are constantly in a stress response. They can’t sleep well. They can’t cope with their stress. They can’t cope with pressure. And their adrenals are not working very well. They get exhausted in this people. And so sex hormones are all over the place. Some are too high, some are too low, the whole thing is dysregulated. And that will produce perimenstrual syndrome. That will produce polycystic ovaries. That will produce dysmenorrhea and various other problems in that area. In men, it will produce also problems in that area. And infertility is one of those problems as well.

And I would mention another problem that I see because I work with children and have been working for the last, almost, 30 years. So many of these children still stay with me. I observe them for a long, long time. Many of these children with abnormal gut flora, have abnormal sexual development due to this flow of hormones. Hormones from their gut flora. Girls are not sure they’re girls. Boys are not sure they’re boys. There are some secondary sexual characteristics which are not quite right, not quite normal. And they’re abnormalities in this area due to this fact.

Another thing that this community of microbes produces in combination with the gut itself are neurotransmitters. We now know that almost 100% of serotonin is produced in the gut and then transported to the brain to be used. About 70% of dopamine is produced in the gut and then sent to the nervous system to be used. Almost 100% of GABA is produced in the gut. And many other endorphins and neurotransmitters. These are chemicals that our nervous system, the cells in our brain and spine, use to communicate between themselves and between each other.

And when the serotonin is low, if your gut is not functioning well, your gut wall is abnormal, it’s unable to produce enough serotonin. If your serotonin is low then you can’t sleep well, you become negative, and you become depressed. You don’t see any joy in life at all. Because to be positive, to be content, we need serotonin.

When there isn’t enough dopamine, it’s a motivational neurotransmitter, that’s another side of depression. When the person is just apathetic. They don’t want to get out of bed. They don’t want to brush their teeth, brush their hair, change their clothes, to wash themselves. What’s the point? This person has no dopamine. Not enough dopamine is being produced.

When there isn’t enough GABA, the person becomes anxious. That is the cause of anxiety in the person and panic attacks.

And the combination, all of these neurotransmitters are very powerful. They have many, many functions in many different organs, not only on the nervous system. They also affect the immune system. They affect how the muscles work and how many, many other organs in the body work. So it’s a disaster just these three aspects of the activity of the gut flora, abnormal hormonal flow, abnormal neurotransmitter flow, and thousands of poisonous chemicals absorbing. All of this situation turns the digestive system of a person into a major source of toxicity in the body.

While the food is not digesting properly, not absorbing properly, and the person developing multiple nutritional deficiencies. When you have abnormal gut flora, you can be eating the best diet in the world, the best quality food in the world. But you are unable to digest it properly, to absorb it properly. And this food is not really benefiting you as a result. So that’s what happens in the GAPS person.

The more we research gut flora, the more we research microbiome – that’s the new term that science has created – the more we realize that there is nothing sterile in the human body. We have microbes living everywhere. Our blood vessels are populated by microbial community. Our blood has microbes in it. Our heart, our lungs, our brain has microbes in it. Our abdominal cavity has its own microbial flora. The uterus in a woman, the tubes in the woman, the ovaries have their own flora. The flora is everywhere.

But the bulk of it, the headquarters of all these microbial community are in the gut. And I believe that it is from the gut that all the major instructions and data and information goes to the rest of the microbiome in the human body – from the gut. So when we fix the gut, when we turn that gut flora back to normal, and when they heal and seal the gut wall, everything else in my clinical experience just fixes itself in the body.

The person might come to me with rheumatoid arthritis. And when I asked them about their digestive system, they say, “Well, I’m okay in that department. No diarrhea, no constipation, no gas, no bloating, no pain. I’m all right.” But when we test their gut flora, we find that it’s abnormal. When we test the permeability of their gut wall, we find that it’s like a safe, everything absorbs undigested and it’s just the flow of toxicity coming through it. And when we put the person on the GAPS nutritional protocol, the rheumatoid arthritis disappears. The person recovers from this disease which is far away from the digestive system and nobody would connect the two.

The same with the mental illness with the brain. Look how high the brain is in the body and where the digestive system is. That is why for a long time nobody connected the two. And with the GAPS nutritional protocol, what we do – and my book has – the GAPS book came out first in 2004. And when it first came out, I lost count of mainstream medical professionals and professors and so on who were telling me that I’m absolutely crazy. That I’m off my rocker saying things like that. That autism has any connection to the digestive system. Or hyperactivity in children or anything else like that. Now we have a number of scientific studies published which are confirming that fact. So the science eventually caught up with us, which is great.

So what happens in an autistic child? From my point of view and from the point of view of many other holistic doctors that I know, ecological doctors, almost 100% of these poor little darlings, these autistic children in the world – we have an epidemic of autism – we’re born with a perfectly normal brain. These were perfectly normal babies.

But what happened to these babies? They acquired abnormal gut flora from the mother. We now know that the child starts acquiring gut flora during pregnancy in utero. Because the woman has uterine flora. She got the flora in her uterus and her placenta. The placenta is populated richly, apparently, by microbes. And that’s where it all begins. So the baby is born already with some microbes populating the whole digestive system, the skin of the child, the eyes of the child, the mucous membranes. But then a large percent of our gut flora comes in into the baby during the moment of birth if the child is born vaginally, if the child is born normally. Because vagina is richly populated area of the woman’s body. And that flora comes from two sources. It comes from her gut flora. So whatever gut flora she has, it travels out of her rectum, into the groin, and populates the vagina.

The second source is the father. If the father has abnormal gut flora, then he’s groin and all the organs in that area will be populated with that abnormal gut flora. And he shares that flora with the mother a regular basis through sexual conduct. So that’s how Mother Nature designed it. So both mommy and daddy pass their gut flora to the child  at the moment of birth.

If the child was born through C-section, then the flora is impoverished. That’s what research shows. That the diversity of microbes in the flora of these children is much, much lower. It’s impoverished because they didn’t go through the vagina. Therefore, it comes from the hands of people who look after the child, from the bottle, from the nipple of the mother. Because the milk ducts in the breasts of the mother are populated by and enriched microbial flora. So breast milk is a probiotic food. It’s rich in beneficial microbes plus all the necessary food to encourage the right kind of microbes to grow in the digestive tract to the child. So breast is still the best without a doubt. If the child on top of that is not breastfed, is bottle fed, then that’s another source of good gut flora eliminated in this child.

So why is it important to understand and know the parents pass their gut flora? Because that is where we find the source of this epidemic of autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, schizophrenia, diabetes type one, allergies, asthma, eczema, and under problems in our children.

About a third of Western children certainly in the United States of America are now being estimated that they will not outlive their parents. Children who were born in the last ten years or so. Because their constitution is so poor and their health is so poor. They just haven’t got the chance, this children. And unfortunately, that proportion of children is growing every year and the situation is getting worse every year. And the same with autism.

When I started practicing when my own child was born, we were diagnosing one child in 10,000 with autism. Today we’re diagnosing one child in 35. And scientists have already projected that line for them. And by 2025, between 2020 and 2025 in the English speaking countries which are on the forefront of this epidemic, they are predicting that one child in two will become autistic.

Half. The other half of our babies will not be healthy either. They will have ADHD, ADD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, schizophrenia, Oppositional Defiant Disorder. The list of various diagnostic labels is growing all the time. Epilepsy, diabetes type one is an absolute epidemic. Absolute epidemic. It is growing through the roof. Rheumatoid arthritis in our babies. Eczema, asthma, allergies, all kinds of health problems. And the proportion of these children is growing.

So what is happening and while this is happening? Before I talk about the health of the child in my clinic, I always talk about the health of the parents first and our grandparents as well, and all the siblings. And out of that information, a typical scenario has emerged. If the grandmother and grandfather were born, let’s say, after the Second World War, they’ve acquired normal healthy gut flora from their parents. Or maybe during the Second World War, they were born. And then antibiotics came onto the market in the 50s, maybe they had one or two courses of antibiotics which damaged their gut flora slightly. It didn’t have any effect on their own health, you know, because the human body is pretty resilient. And then they passed a slightly damaged gut flora to their children at the moment of birth, both the mother and the father. And then these children grew up in a very different world. They grew up in a world where antibiotics were given to them throughout their childhood and youth as sweets for every cough and sneeze, regular courses of antibiotics.

This was the time when the food industry flourished and appeared on the planet. And industrial agriculture appeared on the planet. And then the increasing number of agricultural chemicals being used, many which antibiotics in their nature. This is the time when junk food came onto the market. So a lot of these kids grow up on junk food, processed foods, full of antibiotics, full of chemicals. And then this is the time the generations where the girls will put on the contraceptive pill at the age of 15 or 16, which they took for quite a few years. Because this is the generation again where people started having children later and later in life. So the woman takes this pill for quite a while, quite a few years, before she is ready to have her first child.

Contraceptive pill has a devastating effect on the gut flora and on the immune system of the woman as well. So by the time this generation of people decides to have their first child, they got fully seriously damaged. And that is what they passed to their child at the moment of birth. So these children start their life from a very poor stand, already acquiring abnormal gut flora, abnormal microbiome of the whole body, from their parents. And what I see that every year, this situation is getting worse and worse, deeper and deeper. Those who had their first baby five years ago, passed a little bit better gut flora than young ladies who are having children this year or last year. And it’s accelerating. The whole thing is just accelerating. This is the epidemic of abnormalities in the gut flora that the GAPS epidemic. That is the root cause of all the other epidemics we have, autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, poor vision in the children, epilepsy, diabetes type one, allergies, and so on. And every year the situation is getting worse.


There’s another factor that joined in the last few decades, particularly recently in the last 20 or 25 years, and that is the toxic load that the baby is born with. It sounds cruel. It sounds unfair. But the way Mother Nature designed a woman’s body is that it uses pregnancy as a chance to clean up by dumping toxins into the fetus, into the baby. Our ladies nowadays grow up in the world, they are born into a world where vanity rules. We now have five year old girls dyeing their hair, doing nails, using makeup, all kinds of personal care products usually targeted at female population as well. All these chemicals, the personal care industry, the makeup, the hair, all of this sort of things. Human skin is not a barrier. It’s a sponge. It absorbs everything you put on it in seconds.

And our chemical industry to date has invented some 80,000 or something of new chemicals which don’t exist in nature. And this list is growing all the time. We haven’t even researched the majority of these chemicals. They are not safe. The human body doesn’t know what to do with them. They accumulate in the human body and the body just tucks them away somewhere so they don’t cause damage.

So by the time the lady is ready to have her first child and women have their children later and later in life, majority of women in the Western world now wouldn’t even think about it until they’re 30, even later sometimes. So the longer the woman waits, the more toxicity her body accumulates. And then as soon as she gets pregnant for the first time, her body thinks great, “I’ll clean up.” And it dumps the whole lot into the baby – into the fetus. If that toxicity is enough to kill the baby then the woman will have a miscarriage or a stillbirth. We have an epidemic of miscarriages. The statistics are also growing. But miscarriage is not a happy event. But it is a chance for the woman’s body to clean up. So for the following pregnancy, she’s cleaner. And she will continue having miscarriages until her body is clean enough to provide an environment for producing a viable body for her baby.

If the woman didn’t have enough toxicity in her body, then her baby will be born with a high toxic load, if it wasn’t enough toxicity to kill a fetus, the fetus has survived, but the baby will be born with a high toxic load. And that means this baby has a compromised constitution. This is not going to be a healthy person. A healthy human being born with a high toxic load. And indeed, if you look at the statistics of autism, of ADHD, and other problems, other health problems in children, the vast majority of them are first born in the family. Because the woman cleaned up on the first pregnancy. And the following pregnancies, she had a cleaner body for those and these children were born with a smaller toxic load. As a result, stronger constitution and stronger health, generally speaking. If a woman was exposed to some toxicity between pregnancies, which can happen in our modern world as well, then following pregnancy will also dump a lot of toxicity into the child.

So this is a double whammy for babies nowadays. They’re born with a high toxic load plus they acquire abnormal gut flora. So there are gaps this children. From my point of view, nobody’s researching this. There are no epidemiological studies done on this yet in the world. How many of our babies are born as GAPS? But from my point of view, a vast majority. A growing majority. It is hard to see healthy babies nowadays. Babies are affected in one way or another.

So what happens in this child? The child begins its life with abnormal gut flora. While the child is exclusively breastfed – breast milk is the best food for the baby for many reasons. First of all, it doesn’t mean digesting. It absorbs – the nutrients are all there ready to be absorbed and to nourish the child. It is perfect. Absolutely perfect. Secondly, the milk ducts in the breast populates a beneficial flora. So this is a probiotic food. So while we are exclusively breastfeeding, we are correcting the gut flora in the child getting it better a little bit.

At the same time whatever abnormal gut flora the mother passed to her child, she had for a while herself. So her immune system has developed some defenses against her own gut flora. She would have antibodies. She will have immune complexes against this microbes. And all of this immune complexes and antibodies will be flowing in her milk. Because milk of any animal is the white blood of the female with red blood cells removed. So everything that is in your blood, in the mother’s blood, will be in her milk. And that means all the immune complexes alive and active, alive and active hormones, neurotransmitters, microbes, nutrients and the right kind of biochemical forms so the breast milk is the best. There’s no doubt about it. So while the woman is breastfeeding, she passed her abnormal gut to the child but at the same time through her breast milk she’s providing protection for her baby. So the baby is protected.

The baby might have colic. Colic is the first symptom that the child has abnormal gut flora. It must not be ignored. It’s very important, Colic has become so universal that health [inaudible 00:39:13] pronounced it as normal. Because they just see so many babies with colic. It is not normal. It means that the gut flora is abnormal in the child and it’s producing too much gas. At the same time, inflammation sets in the walls of the digestive tract of the child. When the bubble of gas accumulates somewhere in the digestive tract, it stretches those sore, inflamed walls, and the child has pain. The child has cramps that is why the child is crying. And until that gas gets released, one way or another, or gas moved into a less painful area of the digestive tract, the child will be screaming. So this should be a signal to the parents that the gut flora is abnormal. We must do something to deal with the situation because if we don’t, later on, that can lead towards autism, towards another learning disability or epilepsy or allergies or [inaudible 00:40:05] or something else disastrous for the child. So that is the first thing that happens.

The child may have colic, the child may be crying, may have eczema. Because eczema is a GAPS condition. What happens? A lot of this toxicity that absorbs from the digestive tract has to be removed from the body somehow. And sweat is a major way to eliminate things out of the body. So when these toxins come out in sweat, they cause irritation on the skin. There is a flora on the skin. The microbes interact with those toxins. They try to initialize them, eat them, or maybe convert them into something even more toxic. That’s a possibility. And of course the immune system is going to join the whole party. When the immune system joins the whole party, that’s when you get the redness, the swelling, the itchy scratchy patches on the skin. Only when the immune system joins in. Because it’s not the toxins and not the microbes that caused the symptoms, It’s the immune system trying to deal with that situation that causes the red, the hot, the itchy, and the painful patches on the skin. So that’s what eczema is. The root of it isn’t the gut. That’s where the toxicity comes from. So when we heal and seal the gut, eczema disappears.

And I have thousands of children who healed from eczema very nicely when they followed the GAPS nutritional protocol. So this baby – let’s come back to this exclusively breastfed baby, the baby might be crying because of colic. The baby might have eczema. But the baby is growing, developing, nobody is particularly concerned. But when solids are introduced or formula is added to the breast milk regimen. And formula, now we have studies to show that even occasional bottle or formula changes the gut flora in the child towards pathogenic end.

So we really need to work on exclusively breastfeeding our babies and avoiding all commercial formulas because they do our babies no good. This is a dead powder made of processed synthetic things, which do nothing good for the baby whatsoever. So breastfeeding, breast is the best.

And many women who do not produce enough milk or have some problems with breastfeeding, they ask me, “What do I do? If I can’t feed formula, what do I do?” What we need to do in our human societies – modern human society is to resurrect thousands of years old practice. Because formula only existed in the world for a few decades. What did women do for thousands of years when a girl can’t produce enough milk for her baby? There will be other women around who are breastfeeding their babies, they will feed her baby for her. And that was called wet nursing. We need to bring that practice back. That is the only viable and the only proper thing to do for our babies. Not to run to the pharmacy and buying formula.

So what I recommend to all pregnant girls who go to antenatal classes, I tell them, “You single out. If you pregnant ladies there who look healthy, speak to them and say let’s form a group.” Because you never know what happens. Giving birth is the most dangerous thing a woman can do in her life. It’s completely unpredictable. You can prepare in the best possible way. You don’t know what’s going to happen. Really, it is from the experience of obstetricians. They will confirm that experience. “So let’s form a group, girls. If one of us cannot breastfeed for whatever reason, we will feed that baby, we will share our milk.”

Many women when they breastfeed produce so much milk, they can feed more than one baby. Definitely. I was one of those women. When I was breastfeeding my two babies, I could breastfeed five, no doubt about it. I had so much milk. And it was very, very rich. I would have been perfectly happy to share. So there are many women like that. And that’s what we need to do. We need to create these communities of wet nursing to support each other and to support our babies. Because no matter how clever and how well the formula is marketed, no formula in the world will ever come close to the quality of the breast milk of a woman. So that’s what we need to be doing.

And what happens to these babies with abnormal gut flora when the solids are introduced? That’s when their pathogenic microbes suddenly get the feast. You know, and usually it’s baby rice or processed powdered milk or anything else processed for these babies. And so they feast on that and they start manufacturing all their toxins and all the abnormal hormones go in and other things go in. And that’s where real problems begin in the child.

And many children nowadays instinctively learn that solids are not good for them. Anything apart from mommy’ breasts, everything else they just diffuse these babies. Because maybe when they were given the first solid or the first formula milk or anything else, the child got a tummy ache or maybe got a headache or maybe got pain in the joints or pain in the muscles. The baby can’t explain this to you. But the baby learns that anything but mommy’s breasts hurts me. I’m not going to have it. They refuse it.

It is rare for a human child to continue thriving exclusively on breast milk past the age of nine months, ten months, maybe on average. That’s when children start losing weight. And the development starts slowing down and everybody gets concerned. And that’s when the child gets diagnosed with failure to thrive in this situation. And the mainstream does all sorts of terrible things. These children have a tube through their nose and fed synthetic formulas through the nose and all sorts of things like that. And if that continues, the child will develop severe profound physical and mental disability.

What we do with these children, we put them on the first stage of the GAPS introduction diet. We start with meat stock for these babies. [Inaudible 00:46:22] boil chicken. We get organic chicken, boil the whole chicken in about two or three liters of water, and we start with that meat stock. The meat stock is warm. It is soothing. It is healing for this baby. So what the mother does when the baby is ready to eat, is not stressed, the baby needs to be happy and calm. There’s no crying, no pain anywhere. And before you give the breast to the child, you give the child one teaspoon of this warm chicken stock. Just put it in the child’s mouth and let the baby swallow it. What we’re doing with teaching the child that the spoon is safe. Because at some point the child learn that spoon is dangerous. That anything coming off the spoon gives me pain. I’m not going to have anything from the spoon or from the beaker or from the bottle or anything else. We’re re-teaching the child that the spoon is safe. And the beaker is safe and the bottle is safe by using this warm soothing healing meat stock.

And we’ll start with a small achievable target, one teaspoon before the breast is given. So before every breastfeeding, we give one teaspoon until one teaspoon is not a problem. Then we move to two teaspoons before every breastfeeding. Then three teaspoons and so on until we start using a bottle, start using a beaker, and the child has a good amount of this meat stock before every breastfeeding. When that’s not a problem, then we’ll take the skin, the fat, a little bit of brown meat of the wings and the legs of that chicken that we made the meat stock and blend into the bouillon into the stock. And this is only for soup. So we’ll make that soup gradually thicker and thicker and thicker. So the child is having the stock and and the chicken itself. And the most valuable parts of the skin of the chicken and the fat of the chicken and a little bit of brown meat. Not the breasts.

And then if that’s not a problem anymore and that has become a normal part of the child’s daily routine, having this little soup, then we start adding some vegetables to the soup. We cook them well. We start with non-starch vegetables. This is described in my book – in my GAPS book, that is part four there, about preconception and new baby. Where there is a diet on new baby. That’s how we deal with that situation.

Learning disabilities and other serious physical problems usually develop when breastfeeding stops in the baby. Because the breast milk was providing protection from these disabilities. Despite the fact that the child has acquired abnormal gut flora. The child has colic, has eczema maybe, has other problems, but as long as the breast milk is provided, it provides protection. Because we can’t live with colic and many parents wouldn’t mind – you know, I’m not so concerned about eczema even compared to autism. Autism was a far more disastrous situation than any of those other situations. So nobody wants that. So what I recommend for these families, if you know that your gut flora is abnormal, if you know that your child already has a colic, has eczema, or has something wrong with the gut flora, breastfeed for as long as you can. Two, three, four years. Even once a day, a little supplement of breast milk will do wonders. It will boost the immune cell status of the child. It will provide the right nutrition. It will provide healing substances for the gut lining. It will provide probiotic microbes for the child. Just don’t stop breastfeeding until you’re sure your child is doing well. And in the meantime, follow the GAPS nutritional protocol to heal the gut, to heal the immune system, to normalize and rebalance the hormonal system in the child, neurotransmitter production, and immune function. Everything in the child will straighten up on the GAPS nutritional protocol.

There’s another very serious situation that is fairly modern. It’s a new diagnostic label called a FPIES. There are now variations of this diagnostic label. And that is a Food Protein-Induced Enterocolitis in the child. Basically, what we have here, we have a child with such damaged gut wall with big holes in the gut wall. So all protein in this child absorbs undigested. And these are the children who are often exclusively breastfed. Breast milk goes in, diarrhea comes out, and the child i’s not putting weight, vomiting, diarrhea, vomiting, diarrhea. Everybody gets concerned. The doctors test this child and find that the child is allergic to all proteins on the planet. So the woman is told to stop breastfeeding. As a result, the child is put on an elemental soy formula, which is terrible. And the parents are told, “You can’t give your child any protein. Just give them some bold carrots or something. And that’s it.” And then, you know, the doctors tell them to look for veganism for the rest of their lives.

So what we do with these babies? I have a growing group of these babies in the world. We have now a support group amongst parents, wonderful mothers, wonderful, just absolute heroes mothers who have healed their own children and now helping hundreds of other babies in the world with this terrible situation.

We start with meat stock with these babies. Lots of protein. But what we’re doing with this meat stock, we’re building a new gut wall for the baby. And until that new gut wall is built, vomiting, diarrhea might continue. The child might continue reacting. But we have to, there is no other path, there is no other way. And this children do recover. They have to stay on the GAPS diet then pretty much for life. For many, many, many years until we’re absolutely sure that the person is healthy and robust. Only then you can try and introduce things which are not allowed on the GAPS diet. But there are now many children in the world who recovered from this condition. This are GAPSters children. And many other health problems. So this is the first year that we talked about.

Now let’s move into the second year of the GAPS children. That is the year when they develop autism, hyperactivity, dyslexia, dyspraxia, diabetes type one, and other learning disabilities and other physical problems. Because that’s usually is the year when the breastfeeding stops and the child is on solids. And the child can digest that food. Their digestive tract is a source of toxicity. How do babies learn? How do children learn how to be a human being in this world? Because they need to learn that sort of thing. They learn through using their senses, their eyes, the ears, their tactile sensitivity, their sense of smell, sense of taste, and other senses. So what does sensory organs do? They collect information from the environment. Just observe babies. They listen to everything. They stare at everybody. They touch everything. They take everything in their mouth. They’re using their sensory organs to collect information from the environment. And then this information is passed to the brain to be processed. And from this processing, the brain learns. Now, “This is mommy. This is daddy. This is a toy. I play with it like this. This is food I eat. These are the children, I copy them.” And that’s how human beings develop. That’s how a baby learns to be a human being.

But in our GAPS children, their brain is clogged with toxicity. That proof of toxicity coming out of the gut gets into the brain of the child and clogs it with toxins. This brain cannot process this information from the sensory organs appropriately. All this information comes into a mush, into a noise in the brain. And depending how much toxicity is in the brain, what kind of toxicity the character with, the child will develop symptoms. If it’s the most severe situation, the child will become autistic. If it’s less severe and there are bits and pieces here and there, the child may become hyperactive or develop attention deficit disorder or dyslexia or dyspraxia or schizophrenia, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, strange fits, strange ticks, and epilepsy.

Epilepsy is a safety valve for the brain. When the brain accumulates too much toxicity and it senses that this toxicity is physically damaging to the tissue of the brain. Remember, these children were born with a perfectly normal brain. This was a perfectly normal brain. But of course, years and years of bombardment of the brain by this toxins will cause physical damage to the brain. And a proportion of these children, the brain develops a cleansing procedure, a safety valve. It sends one electric discharge through or a number of electric charges, and burns the whole lot of toxins out. It cleanses itself. But clinically that manifests itself as an epileptic seizure. We have known that epileptic seizures are cleansing for the brain for the last 200 years from classical psychiatry. There are many descriptions of that and that’s what classical psychiatry understood. So the last thing these children need is another toxin added to the whole load of toxicity in the brain in the form of antibiotic medication. All it does is suppresses the brain activity. So the longer the child is on this medication, the more they are unable to learn and they become – they develop learning disability and they become just couch potatoes. Their personality changes in these children.

What we want is to subtract toxins from the brain. Not to add more. There are dangerous forms of epilepsy. But the child is having several grand mal seizures a day. That’s when the medication is life saving. Because an epileptic seizure can kill a child. But majority of children are not in that category. Majority of children had one seizure and then no seizures for many months. No epileptic activity for many months afterwards. And yet they’re put on medication. My dream is that one day our medical professional will be putting them on the GAPS state. Because I have many, many children around the world who recovered from epilepsy with the GAPS diet. Because what we do with the GAPS diet, the GAPS nutritional protocol will clean the gut, drive out pathogens, reestablish normal harmonious balanced community of microbes in the gut, and we heal and seal the gut wall.

As a result that wave of toxicity coming from the gut stops. And when it stops, the brain cleans itself. Human body has an amazing ability to clean itself. Every cell, every tissue has a cleaner in it, which is very busy and constantly cleaning itself. The headquarters of this cleaning detoxification system is in the liver and departments in every cell of the human body. So the human body and the brain has a beautiful ability to cleanse itself to get rid of toxicity. We just have to stop these toxins from coming in. And in order to do that, we have to heal the gut. Because if your tap in the kitchen is leaking and you have a puddle on the floor ,what do you do first? Do you start mopping the puddle or do you deal with the tap first? It’s a good idea to fix the tap first and then mop the puddle. So by fixing the gut, we’re fixing the tap in the kitchen – the leaky tap. And once the leak stops then we can mop the paddle and be done with the situation.

So as far as the brain is concerned, in my opinion, all mental illness – all of it – schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, addictions, depression, epilepsy, any kind of mental illness, panic attacks, memory problems are GAPS conditions. They’re all coming from the digestive system from my clinical experience, from everything I know, and all learning disabilities and children. So whenever there are any mental symptoms in any person, the first thing we need to do urgently, get on the GAPS diet immediately.

But when this river of toxicity gets to other organs in the body, it will cause disease on those as well. And number one thing that happens in many tissues and organs – and that is a collagen disorder. I call it GAPS collagen disorder. I’m finishing my second GAPS book, the Gut and Physiology book. Hopefully, it will come out next year. If I get enough time to see fit. And I described this condition in there – in that book. What happens? About a third of all protein in the human body is collagen. It’s an elastic protein that holds the human body together, pretty much. It’s made out of fibers, long fibers. The skeleton of your muscle, the skeleton of your bones are made out of collagen. All fissures, all ligaments, capsules of the joints, every joint and all the materials that the joints are made, the cartilage, the synovial fluid, the capsule of the joint, all the ligaments and all the supportive structures are collagen largely. So it is a very, very important part in the human body. The problem with it is that, it is an absolute magnet for toxicity for toxins. This toxic river that is absorbing from the digestive tract of a GAPS person. Many of these toxins are attracted to collagen. They attach themselves to these molecules. And that changes the three dimensional structure of collagen.

Our immune system goes around the body surveying it all the time. What it finds, this change molecules of collagen. It looks at them and says, “You’re not mine. I don’t recognize you as mine. You must be some something foreign that got in.” And initially the immune system would use off the shelf response which is always ready, always there on the shelf, and that is inflammation. It will cause inflammation in that area. What inflammation does, it kills the enemy and cleans the site.  That is its function. It will remove this toxicity. It will clean that place up. So if this influx of toxicity was temporary, and not very heavy, you may get about inflammation somewhere. And inflammation always comes with pain. It’s red, it’s hot, it’s swollen and the function is limited. So that might happen in your knee or your elbow or your thumb or your spine, in your – you’ll get lumbago, you’ll get a backache, back pain. That is a major, major cause of back pain because our spine is a whole collection of tiny little joints. It’s made out of lots and lots of little joints. The spine, lots of collagen.

But if this situation is not temporary, if this toxicity is coming all the time, and the immune system has been using inflammation for many, many days, the immune system will have enough time then to study these changed molecules of collagen and start producing antibodies against them. And you’ve got an autoimmune disease. That’s when your temporary bouts of arthritis turned into rheumatoid arthritis, osteoarthritis, or another form of autoimmune arthritis. If this situation happened in your lungs because the lungs are full of collagen, then you may get asthma, you may get obstructive pulmonary disease, or another problem with your lungs. If the situation happens in your heart, and the heart has lots of collagen in it because heart valves are largely collagen. The strings that are attached to the heart walls, the inside lining of the heart has a lot of collagen in it, and the muscle of the heart itself and the capsule of the heart,. Then you can get palpitations and you can get heart problems. So wherever this sort of situation happens, it becomes chronic and there is an autoimmune component as well as inflammation going on in the body.

Many of our GAPS children have that situation pretty much from birth. That is why these children usually have loose weak joints. They are double jointed. They have flat feet. They stumble on a perfectly level floor and hurt themselves all the time. These children, because their joints are loose because the collagen that is holding the joint together is being destroyed by our own immune system by autoimmunity. The [inaudible 01:03:01] has become loose in this person so these children and adults can develop hernias. All our organs inside our bodies are hanging on big sheets of collagen. These are the things that are holding them hanging in the right place. They all sag down quite often. They hang low and these people. And that can cause the problems with the function of these organs. And because our blood vessels are largely made out of collagen, these people get very weak blood vessel walls and they bruise easily.

There are many people with GAPS who say that, “I bruise so easily. I just pick something up and I’ve got a bruise on my hand.” I just have to bump a little bit into something and they get the great big bruise. The wall of your blood vessels is very weak because you have a collagen disorder. That’s what happens in these patients, they are called GAPS collagen disorder because the toxicity is coming out of the digestive system of the person.

Wherever these toxins get you, they will cause disease, neurological illness, multiple sclerosis, neuropathies, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, DM [inaudible 01:04:11] or any other neurological – chronic neurological disorder. Fibromyalgia can be put into that category as well because these people have neuropathies as well.

The skeleton of every peripheral nerve in our body is collagen. And if that collagen inflamed and under autoimmune attack, of course, there will be symptoms. There will be problems. I have many patients with neuropathies who have recovered on the GAPS nutritional protocol.

Energy production in the body also suffers when people have so much toxicity coming out of the gut. The energy in the human body is produced by organelles in every so-called mitochondria, our little energy factories. They’re very effective mitochondria. They produce a lot of energy per unit of glucose or unit of fat that they burn to produce energy. The problem is the process is dirty. The things that shoot out of these mitochondria into the cell are free radicals. This wild oxygen species which can damage a lot of things in the cell. Because this process was designed by Mother Nature over billions of years, the cell has a way of dealing with that situation. It produces antioxidants to deal with this free radicals immediately. It produces lipoic acid, glutathione, vitamin C, and other things, other antioxidants. And the whole thing is ticking nicely.

The problem is, our mitochondria very vulnerable to toxicity coming out of the gut. They get damaged by toxins. And many cells also die. Many cells in the body not only mitochondria but many cells in the body get damaged in the human body. So the energy production starts reducing. The person starts getting fatigue. The person starts getting tired from ordinary or normal activities. They have to rest and pace themselves. And what happens at a certain point in the body? There is a central command that comes from the brain. When the brain senses that enough cells in the body are dying from this toxicity, enough mitochondria being damaged, a central command descend from the brain to shut all mitochondria down. Why does that happen?

And that is the day when the person can’t get out of bed. They become more chair bound at that point. They can breathe. They can just about, you know, live, but they can’t do anything. They can’t function – these people – because there isn’t enough energy.

What happens in this situation? When many cells are dying in the body because of toxicity get destroyed. The human body has to produce lots of baby cells to replace them. Lots and lots. The body becomes broody. It starts producing lots of babies. In order to produce a baby, a cell has to unwrap its genetic material. Its chromosomes which are hidden inside the nucleus of the cell behind a very thick wall. Why it is hidden behind a thick wall? Because our genes, our chromosomes, are extremely vulnerable to free radical damage. And all these free radicals shooting out the mitochondria inside the cell, they can damage our genetic material. When the cell wants to produce a baby, it has to dissolve that wall, make its chromosomes make it inside the cell, divides them into two, build two nuclei, build a wall around those nuclei to protect them, and then divide and produce a baby – produce a baby cell. So while that process is going on, what the cells do? They shut down their mitochondria. They can’t allow them to work. They can’t allow this production of free radicals in the cell.

And while mitochondria are shut down, the cell uses a very old archaic way of production of energy, which comes from evolution, which will allow the cell to divide, will allow it to breathe, but will not allow it to do anything else. It’s archaic. It’s very old. It producers only a little bit of energy that’s not enough to really function to the full capacity. But because the cells divide quite quickly, it only takes a few minutes. As soon as the baby is produced, mitochondria switched on again. And this process worked for us beautifully for thousands of years, possibly millions of years. But what happens when the person is so toxic and so many cells are dying, and so many babies need to be produced? At a certain point, the brain perceives this situation. It keeps a tab on everything going on in the body. And with the central command, it shuts down all mitochondria. And the body starts functioning on that archaic, old way of producing energy in the cytoplasm of the cell. Which will allow you to breathe, to stay alive, but will not allow you to jump out of bed, to make breakfast for your children, to take them to school, to go and work, or do anything else. And this is chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, myalgic encephalomyelitis, and some other conditions where the person suffers from severe fatigue.


So how do we help these people? What do we need to do? It’s toxicity that’s killing them. And where is that leaky tap where toxicity is coming from? The gut. We need to fix that tap first. We need to fix the gut first. We need to be on the GAPS diet for many, many years. Sometimes for the rest of the person’s life. Because this is a very serious situation. Once we fix the gut and that waive of toxicity stops, the leaky tap is fixed. Then the body moves up the puddle on the floor. Removes the toxicity. And as the toxins are being removed from the body, the body becomes cleaner and cleaner. At a certain point the brain perceives that situation and it takes off that command, it switches on the mitochondria. And that’s a beautiful day usually for the person because they wake up in the morning and they’ve got enough energy to actually get out of bed and maybe go and brush their teeth, you know,  or brush their hair, or have a shower, or something else like that. The next day, a little bit more energy. Next week a bit more energy. And gradually they regain their normal energy production.

But in order to get to that point, to the point of actually producing energy, first we need to spend time on healing the gut. And that can take a year or a couple of years, it can take time, depending how severe the situation is in the human body. Generally speaking, with all of this severe chronic conditions, the disease has been building up and developing in a person in less. It’s like an onion this whole disease. First, the first layer was developed. And then the second layer developed on top of that. And then another layer. And the healing will go in the reverse order. The body will decide what’s the priority number one, then what’s the priority number two, was the priority number three. And the body has to deal with the priority number one first until it’s done. Only then the body can have a little break, a little respite. And that’s the time when the person feels really well. They really feel well. And then the body decides it’s good enough resources. Enough strength now to attack the layer number two, the second priority. And that’s when new symptoms develop. That’s when the person feels ill again.

Don’t be disheartened if you were on the GAPS nutritional protocol for a year and you got better, much, much better. However, not all your health problems are gone yet. And then suddenly you feel worse again. Your body got to the second layer of the onion. It’s dealing with another second priority. And it could not deal with it before because it had to do with the first priority first. And it’s your body that is doing the healing. The human body has a wonderful ability to heal itself. All the healing mechanisms are programmed into our body. All we have to do is allow the body to do that work without us attacking it with clever inventions, pharmaceuticals or anything else.

Just let the body work and give it all the resources. Give it the right food. Give it enough rest. Give it a positive mental attitude. Give it, maybe, meditation. Give it fresh air. Give it a nice gentle walk in the fresh air every day. And loving, nurturing environment. We each live [inaudible 01:12:44]. You need to have love around you. People who are positive and loving and supportive. All those aspects are important for healing for the human body.

The diet is a huge subject. We probably don’t have time for it in this interview. It’s described in great detail in my book, the Gut And Psychology Syndrome Book. And it’s also described in great detail on my website The diet, how to implement it. And GAPS nutritional protocol is not just a diet. It also has some supplements in it. And it has lifestyle changes. So it’s a problem. So the whole program needs to be done by the person.



[1:13:24] Ashley James: When you first did it with your son when he was three years old and he was diagnosed with autism and you started as we’ve started to really like dive into this for him and do this, the GAPS diet with him, what kind of changes did you see?



[01:13:40] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: He’s now an adult. He’s 26 years old now. And he’s fully recovered. He’s leading a normal life. So he was my first teacher. In fact, I believe that children come to us as teachers. We are just teaching them to mind and mundane things you know, how to dress, how to walk, how to drive and so on. While they teach us the most profound universal truths. They make us better human beings. They make us grow and force us to grow. So he was my biggest teacher in my life. And we started the diet when he was three. And by the age of five, he went to the mainstream school with support. About 95% of success we have achieved in the first two years. And then the rest, 5% of the healing, happened over the next five or six years gradually. They were the most difficult bits, obviously, to get rid of.

Apart from the GAPS nutritional protocol, we did the ABA program, Applied Behavior Analysis. And I’m a great advocate of this protocol of this program. Because what happens with autistic children, children learn certain skills at a certain age. That’s how our brain is programmed. From the moment of birth, from the moment of conception, we follow a certain program that has been put in, I don’t know when, I don’t know by who. Because it’s not just genetic. It’s not just genes. Far from it. So it’s a divine extremely complex problem. And as a child is born, they have to learn certain skills at a certain age. That’s when the program that you learn that. A certain window of opportunity. We have to learn to walk around the age of one. We have to learn to speak around the age of two. Then in the following years, we’ll learn syntaxes and grammar. And finally, of the language and social skills and the rest of it. And if the child missed that window of opportunity of learning that skill, they may not learn that skill themselves later on. You have to teach it. And you have to teach it. You have to break that skill into the tiniest possible steps and teach them systematically starting with the simple most fundamental step until that’s mastered. Then build on that. The second step then build on that. The third step. And the only problem that I know that is thorough like that, like a fine tooth comb is the Applied Behavior Analysis. There are other programs out there. But it’s only this protocol that, in my experience, produces the right results with autistic children.

So with these children, it isn’t enough to just fix the body. We have to teach them all the skills that they’ve missed. That is why the younger the child is when we put them on the GAPS nutritional protocol, the quicker they recover and the more fully they recover. Because first of all, the brain wasn’t bombarded that long with toxicity to cause physical damage to it. And secondly, because the child missed less on its development, less windows of opportunity have been missed by the child. It’s easier for them to catch up. Easier for them to fill those gaps. And that usually, you know, children recover fully up to the age of four-and-a-half, maybe maximum five. It’s very individual, obviously, in every child. Older than that, what usually remains? Some percent of it remains. Though I did have some cases where children recovered remarkably well,  95%, 90%, which is most grown. There was just some idiosyncrasies left, some quirks left maybe. But the child could function and live in this world and be a full member of the human society.

So it depends. It’s very individual. But at any age of autism, I will do the GAPS nutritional protocol. I will put these children and adults on the diet for the rest of their life. I used to say that children can come off the diet at some point. Now, with all the experience that I have accumulated I recommend everyone autistic child to stay on the diet strictly for the rest of their life. When they fully recovered occasionally, when you go on holiday, maybe you can cheat a little bit. But then when you’re back home back, back to normal, back to the GAPS diet because that would prevent any illnesses, that will prevent any relapses, that will prevent any regressions and any problems whatsoever. And just make this person very healthy and well and functioning. Functioning on the top of their capacity and developing on the top of their capacity.

So what I recommend to all parents, when something is wrong with your child, don’t wait for the diagnostic label. The label will do nothing for your child. It will not help in any possible way. And doctors can take a very long time – an awful long time to give you a diagnosis. Your parents, in your heart you know something’s wrong. You know something’s not quite right with your child. Start the GAPS nutritional protocol. Start the GAPS diet immediately. And chances are, in a few weeks there will be no need for any diagnostic label. If you’ve got an autistic child who is two or two-and-a-half, a few weeks thereof, you don’t even need to do ABA with them. They’re learning themselves. They’re diverting themselves. They’re off. They’re developing. Maybe we’ll need to work a little bit on some skills but not as intensively as the ABA requires.

So the younger the child is, it’s particularly good to start it when the child is 18 months old. You know, because even at 18 months old with autistic children, you already know something’s wrong. Something’s not quite working. The eye contact is not there. He’s not responding to his name. He’s not pointing. He’s not saying anything. He’s not understanding language. Not understanding commands. It’s clear, something’s not quite right with that child. Start the GAPS diet and chances are you will not needing a diagnostic label and you will not need to do anything else with that child.

Children with hyperactivity, with dyslexia, dyspraxia, and other learning disabilities do very well on the GAPS nutritional protocol with these children. Because there isn’t the same cognitive deficit in the child. He may not need to do any special teaching problem with the child. You just put the physical body right, clean up the brain, allow the brain to function the way it’s supposed to, and the child will be off developing, developing normally the way the child should develop.



[1:20:21] Ashley James: Brilliant. Now, I know in your book you have a chapter dedicated to children that are picky eaters, fussy eaters. Because I know parents are like, “Well, how am I going to get my kids to do this?” So I know that that’s in the book. I definitely encourage listeners to get the book.



[1:20:37] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Absolutely.  Absolutely. Fussy eating is a normal symptom on GAPS. It is a part and parcel of GAPS. What happens with these children? The food that they’re eating is converted into millions of toxic substances by the abnormal gut flora. But this microbes in the gut are clever. Part of that toxicity, they make in the form of endorphins. Chemicals that give the brain the pleasure signal. So the brain wants more. So your little adorable darling is a drug addict. The drug is produced in the gut by the abnormal gut flora for this child. So the child is trapped in the typical drug addiction, vicious cycle, when they love and want and limit their diet to the very foods that hurt them, damage their brain, and damage them, and caused their disorder. So if any of you ever read about how difficult it is to try to treat a drug addict, you would realize just how difficult it is to treat them. Your child is going to fight you every step on the way. Pulling a drug addict out of that vicious cycle is hard work. The parents must be united on this issue. The mommy and daddy, grandparents, grandmothers in particular, need to be united on this issue. It takes two adults in the first week or two to break the child out of that vicious cycle. And the child will fight you every step of the way. Be prepared for that. So you have to be strong. You have to stand there like a rock. And that grandma must be like a rock or a daddy or any other member of the family that is helping you.

So what we do, we sit the child down. We make that beautiful meat stock with the chicken or lamb or beef or anything else. And we sit the child down. One adult is standing behind the chair with a big smile on his face, making sure the child cannot leave the situation. The child cannot jump up and run away from the table. Just hold him down gently, nicely, with a smile. The mother is feeding. I will start with a small achievable target, one teaspoon of this meat stock for a reward.

For any child that is verbal and for whom any nonfood reward works, be it a computer game or a favorite video or a favorite book or a favorite game or horses around the house or peekaboo, whatever, whatever works for this particular child, use that as a reward. To swallow that one meaty little teaspoon of the meat stock. As soon as the child swallowed it, we’ll give the child the reward. But most importantly, this is reward has to come with over exaggerated praise from the parents. The parents to explode in happiness. Then you should give the child a complete circus performance in happiness. Throw him up in the air, kiss him, hug him, tickle him, whatever works and then let them go. Let them leave the situation. Let them wander around, play, whatever he wants for five minutes. After five minutes back to that chair, we sit down again, another teaspoon. And we work like that all day until the teaspoon is not a problem anymore wit the child. Quite often children love the circus from the parents so much. It’s so nice for them to have the circus. They will do just for that without any rules. That’s a reward enough for them. The circus from the parents, they always exaggerated praise.

When one teaspoon is not the problem anymore, the child just swallows it and gets the circus and gets the reward, we want two teaspoons for the same reward. And then three teaspoons. And then push and push and push more and more and more until the child has a whole bowl of this stock. And then we start adding that chicken to that stock. And then we start adding vegetables and the rest is history. We just keep working at it and your fussy eater that wouldn’t be anything but from his biscuits or his sweets or whatever it is, in a in a week will be eating everything including liver, fish soup, you know, anything. Absolutely.



[1:24:37] Ashley James: I love it. Now, what if the child or the adult is allergic to some of the foods on the GAPS diet. My son who – I mean I am absolutely going to put him on the GAPS diet starting today. He has asthma. Definitely induced by what he’s allergic to. He’s allergic to dust mites and there’s about seven foods he’s allergic to. We’re gluten free, dairy free household from birth. And he eats organic and he eats really clean. And so we’ve never – we couldn’t figure out why. And he had colic as a baby. And I couldn’t produce enough breast milk. So I got donated breast milk from as many mothers as I could. And when we ran out, we supplemented with formula but he had colic. Everything you said in this interview is exactly what my son’s been going through. And now here he is, four-and-a-half years old. He has asthma. If he’s a eats avocado or egg or has an exposure to dairy – because we’re allergic – the whole family is allergic to dairy – and garlic, fish, any kind of fish will throw him into an asthmatic attack and his histamines through the roof. So these foods that are very healthy foods, very healing foods, his body’s reacting to. So what do you tell parents when they want to put their child on the GAPS diet but they are allergic to some of these foods?



[1:25:59] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: The only allergy that we truly respect is anaphylactic typology, because that’s life threatening. It’s very, very dangerous. Or other allergies are due to the leaky gut. To that porous leaky gut wall. Obviously, if there is no anaphylactic reaction, let’s say, to dairy. And the only dairy that we use are well-fermented dairy that were ferment at home for 24 hours. When you ferment the milk and the milk is raw, it’s essential [inaudible 01:26:24]. It’s very, very important. When the fermented milk for 24 hours is predigested, the microbes in the milk they eat all the lactose because microbes like eating sugars, so that is a truly lactose free product. All the proteins, casein, the albumins, and other proteins are predigested, broken down in this product. So it is a very different product from milk, from any dairy that you bought or from a yogurt or [inaudible 01:26:53] that you bought in the supermarket, in the shop. When you fermented at home for 24 hours, it’s a very different product.

And with all of this, if there is something that your child reacts to, initially avoid these things. Because there’s enough other foods in the diet to focus upon. But then gradually try them. And first start with the ones which do not cause any anaphylactic reaction. Obviously, anaphylactic reactions need to be respected for quite a bit. But in about a year or so, the immune system will rebalance itself. We will nourish the immune system, nurture it, it will rebalance itself. It will be a completely different immune system in the child. And you may be surprised to find that when you try a tiny, tiny amount of the food that the child had an anaphylactic reaction to, there is no reaction anymore.

I had a number of children who recovered peanut allergy. Yes. Anaphylactic reactions disappear. They can also be healed. Because they obsolete sort of information that the body remembers. But the body recovers and it rebuilds itself and the immune system is very different in this children. So it is possible to recover even from those. But the reactions that non-anaphylactic, they’re all due to the leaky gut. Generally speaking, we ignore them. We ignore them and we focus on healing and rebuilding the gut wall.



[1:28:17] Ashley James: What about collagen powder? This is a big fad right now. Getting powdered bone broth and powdered collagen supplements. What do you think about those?



[1:28:30] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: I don’t. I do not like supplements, particularly. The only supplements we use in the GAPS nutritional protocol, [inaudible 01:28:36]. So described in my book. The supplement industry is a multibillion industry and they will all try to convince you that you need to take the supplement for the rest of your life and you can’t live without it. This meat stock that they’re making with joints and bones of animals will provide you in one bowl of soup with a whole bottle of those capsules of collagen.

Large amounts and it is natural and it is fresh and it is properly digestible. And it will it will do what it’s supposed to do in the body. And it comes with all the cofactors.



[1:29:14] Ashley James: I have a technical question about cooking. The chicken, for example, let’s say people are starting phase one with the whole chicken. Instead of slowly simmering it on the stove for several hours, what about using the Instant Pot? The electric pressure cooker –



[1:29:31] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: No, I don’t recommend that.



[1:29:33] Ashley James: You don’t recommend that. So you recommend just traditional. The old way. We got to do it the way grandma taught us.



[1:29:38] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Exactly. It’s two hours – for a chicken, it’s two hours. It’s not that long. You just put the whole chicken. It’s best to get also the neck, the head, the feet of the chicken. That would be wonderful. The giblets will be great to put in there. The whole chicken and about three liters of water to it, some salt, and simmer it for a couple of hours until the chicken is soft. You can eat that chicken. It’s delicious. And the stock will be clear absolutely delicious. Every child loves it once they’ve tasted it.



[1:30:09] Ashley James: And you don’t add any seasonings when you start. It’s just the chicken?



[1:30:13] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Just the salt. Just the chicken and the salt. And the salt needs to be natural. Himalayan Crystal Salt or Celtic salt, you know, natural unprocessed salt which has all the minerals in it. Nothing has been taken out of that salt. Completely natural. You can add some vegetables to eat at the beginning if you want to. You can add a whole onion, you can add the carrot to it if you want you to, to make that stock richer. Some people do that.



[1:30:46] Ashley James: Have you seen people heal things like diabetes, heart disease or issues of the gut like small intestinal bacterial overgrowth or Candida with this diet?



[1:30:54] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Absolutely. All those gut. I have written a book called Put Your Heart In Your Mouth. What really causes heart disease? What I explain what causes heart disease, because it’s not cholesterol and not animal fats the cause heart disease. That is all based on a faulty hypothesis, which has been proposed in 1953. And since then it was proven to be completely wrong, by solid, honest science. The problem is that, while the science was working on this hypothesis, a very powerful and very wealthy, commercial, and political machine grew based on this hypothesis. And it doesn’t allow it to die. It’s the machine that educates all the public.

So in that book, I explained the role of cholesterol, the role of the fats in the body. Cholesterol is something that we cannot live without. It’s one of the most essential molecules for every tissue, every cell in the human body, particularly for the brain, particularly for our hormonal system, for our adrenal, and for our immune system. It’s an absolutely essential molecule. That is why the human body has wonderful abilities to manufacture its own cholesterol. The headquarters of this is in the liver. The liver has a factory in it which manufactures cholesterol. And it is the liver that maintains the level of cholesterol in the blood of the person. And the liver works in connection with every cell, every tissue in the body. No healing, for example, can happen in the human body without involvement of large amounts of cholesterol and fats. Saturated fats in particular. Because they give stability to the cells of the human body. So the cell membrane, in particular. About 40% of our brain tissue is cholesterol. The other 40% is saturated fat. This structural elements of the human body.

So when there is any damage in the human body, maybe you had an operation or you’ve been to the dentist or you’ve hurt yourself, you have a trauma, something happened to you, healing has to happen. When you just went through a stressful period of time, stress causes a lot of damage in our tissues in the human body. No healing or repair can happen in the body without  large amounts of cholesterol and animal fats and proper fats. So any damaged tissue in the body sends a signal to the liver saying, “I need cholesterol. I need fats.” So the liver starts that factory inside itself. It manufactures cholesterol. It manufacturers triglycerides. These fats, packages them appropriately. Because these are fat soluble things. Our blood is water based. You can’t put fat soluble things into the water without packaging them appropriately. So cholesterol is packaged into LDLs, low density labor, proteins. And fats are packaged also into other [inaudible 01:33:37]. And these shuttles deliver this vital substances to the place of damage to heal it. That’s the healing. This is the most healing substances in the world.

And what do our doctors test? They test for these things in the blood and say, “Well, they’re high” or whatever. There are no really high or low standards of cholesterol. Whatever level of cholesterol is in your blood is the right level for you in that amount. It depends on what your body is doing. Because your body might be healing something, your body might be under stress, every stress hormones in the body is made from cholesterol. So when we’re under stress, stress hormones are required to deal with that stress. Your adrenal will send a signal to the liver, “I need cholesterol.” The liver will get into gear, produce it, package it, put it in the blood. Your blood will be delivering that cholesterol to adrenal and they’ll be converting it into stress hormones for you to cope with the stressful situation. So your blood cholesterol will be high. If you interfere with that, you will not be able to cope with stress. You will have a breakdown without these hormones. And many people finish up in that situation. There is no way of reducing blood cholesterol to a diet. That’s been proven in hundreds of studies. No way that diet has – you know, you can eat no cholesterol or no fat at all, your liver will just have to work harder to manufacture more. You’re not providing any help to your body at all.

And the only way to reduce blood cholesterol is to break that factor in the liver. And that’s what anti cholesterol pills do. That’s what they’re designed to do, to break that factory in your liver so it cannot produce cholesterol. That is why these drugs cause so many serious side effects. The major part of Alzheimer’s epidemic is due to Statin, the cholesterol pills. The hospital infection problem is due to Statin because the immune system cannot function without large amounts of cholesterol. It cannot. And what do hospitals do? Every person over 40, as soon as they arrived to the hospital, they’re put on a Statin. That’s a routine prescription. They don’t even measure blood cholesterol anymore.  They just put people on Statin straightaway. And that impairs their immune function. They’re unable to fight any infections. So people get infections in the hospitals. You get hospital infections as a result. There are many – memory loss is due to ubiquitous description of this medication.

So please read that book to understand what fat and cholesterol do. GAPS diet is very rich in cholesterol and in animal fats. Because when we analyze human fat, about 50% of your dry weight is fat. The other 50% of your dry weight protein in the human body. About 70% water. So we talk about the dry weight. So fat is a structural element of the human body, 50% of you is made out of it. So fats are not optional for humans. And when we analyze human fat in the laboratory, we find that in its biochemical structure, it’s very similar to fats in lamb, beef, pork, goose, duck, butter.

Plants have lots of fats in them but their biochemical structure is very different. It’s inappropriate for our fats for building our fats in our human’s body. They’re polyunsaturated. We need a little bit of polyunsaturated fats for the human body, omega fats, omega 3, 6, 7, 9 and so on. But we need them in tiny, tiny amounts. So when you eat enough, if you eat a fresh salad or you eat ed a handful of fresh nuts or oily seeds, you’ll get enough. Although you don’t need much of them.

The bulk of fat consumption has to come from animal foods. From animal fats for the human body. Because these are the only fats that are appropriate for our human physiology. They are structural. And they are functional for us as well. That is why GAPS nutritional protocol, GAPS diet is rich in animal fats.

The same with protein, when they look at the protein in the human body and analyze it in the laboratory, we’ll find that in its biochemical composition is very similar to proteins in meat, fish, eggs, and dairy. Plants are full of proteins. The most famous one is gluten. And the more research gluten, the more we realize nobody can digest it. No human being on this planet can digest gluten. It damages everybody. It’s just people don’t connect their piece of beloved bread with their arthritis or their migraines or their skin rash or whatever, psoriasis or whatever. People don’t want to connect because bread is addictive.

And this is just one protein that we’ve researched. Well, there are many, many other proteins in plants and all of them are indigestible for the human digestive system. This biochemical structure is very difficult for us to digest. And amino acid composition in this protein is inappropriate for building our protein or human protein. [Inaudible 01:38:37] amino acids are in excess and the amino acids are in deficit.

And that leads us to another subject here on vegetarianism. We live in a world of nutritional propaganda. And the latest fashion and propaganda promoted by all the governments in the West is that we all should become vegetarian and even vegan. This propaganda is political. It comes from the commercial sector of the world, which will gain huge profits if large parts of humanity become vegetarian and vegan. That is the agrochemical complex. And that’s where the propaganda originates from this sort of thing.

Plants are indigestible for the human digestive system. They do not feed us. They’re largely cleanses. The foods that feed the human body are animal foods, meat, fish, eggs, and dairy. And we discussed the protein and the fats in them that only animal protein and only animal fat are appropriate for building our fat and our protein. The very structure, the physical structure of the human body.

But there’s another aspect to it and that is the way the human digestive system has been designed. The scientific fact is that the only thing on our planet that can digest plants – that can truly digest plants, the only things, are microbes. And this is the fun that Mother Nature used in designing the digestive system of herbivorous animals, cows, goats, sheep, antelope, deer, giraffe, and so on. In order for these animals to digest the plants that they live on, it gave them a very special digestive system called rumen. A cow, the big belly of a cow, a large part of it is rumen. It’s a huge four chamber stomach. Four stomachs, really. And these four stomachs are full of microbes. The bulk of our gut flora lives in that rumen. And it’s these microbes which digest the grass for her. The cow herself is unable to digest grass. It’s the microbes that do the work for her. And then once they’ve digested all that grass, it’s passed into the intestines where the bulk of absorption happens. That’s where all these digestive elements then absorb.

We, human beings, do not have a rumen. We have a small stomach which produces hydrochloric acid, pepsin, and some other things. And the only things – the only food that these

stomach juices are able to digest are meat, fish, eggs and dairy. That’s a simple chemical fact. And if a human stomach is healthy because virtually no microbes in it, the microbial population is very, very sparse. Because hydrochloric acid just kills them. It creates a very, very hostile environment for any kind of microbes to survive in there. Because in a healthy stomach and a healthy person, when they’re hungry, the pH can be below one. It’s extremely acidic. It will kill any kind of microbes. Without microbes, we can’t digest bones.

So the only things that truly digest in a human stomach are meat, fish, eggs and dairy. Plants just sit there waiting for their turn. Not much digestion happens in plants. And then the whole thing gets passed into the several meters of intestines where absorption of food happens. And the only things that can be absorbed are the ones that get properly digested higher up in the stomach. And that is meat, fish, eggs and dairy. So in order to build – to feed the human body, the physical structure of our bodies, we need animal foods. The plants go through that whole intestines. They contribute some vitamins. They contribute some minerals. They contribute some phytonutrients. But they cannot contribute the bulk for building our physical structure, the protein and the fat. They cannot contribute those because they’re indigestible and they’re inappropriate for our physiology. And then the plants land in our bowel at the end of our digestive system, which is the equivalent of the rumen in the cow. That’s where the bulk of our gut flora lives.  And these microbes then digest the plant matter, break it down a little bit, give us some support.

But the difference between us and the cow is that her rumen is at the beginning of her digestive system. Where the grass is properly digested before it’s passed into the absorptive part of the digestive tract. In us human beings, our rumen is at the end of our digestive system. It’s too late now. The bulk of absorption already happened higher up. That is why we human beings derive our feeding and building nutrients from animal foods. So what do we eat plants for then? Plants are powerful cleansers, particularly when we eat them raw. They cannot build the human body to any degree but they keep it clean on the inside. They have antioxidants, phenols, phytonutrients, all kinds of things in there, which absorb and which keep us clean on the inside. That is why we eat plants.

Traditional cultures around the world through the research of Wesley Price and some other researchers who traveled around the world and studied traditional cultures, they all knew this fact. That is why they will spend extra effort on obtaining meat and fish and collecting eggs and milking animals. And they learned that plants don’t feed them, really, to any large degree. So they developed methods of making plants a little bit more digestible. And the major way they did it was fermentation.

Nontraditional culture would even dream of eating grains, for example, any kind of grain or beans without fermenting them first – thoroughly fermenting them. What are we doing with fermentation or [inaudible 01:44:36]? You know, some cultures [inaudible 01:44:38]. What do we do? We employ microbes to digest that plant for us before we put it into our digestive system. We’re doing exactly what the cow does in her rumen. It’s just that nature has already programmed that in the cow. Well, we don’t have a rumen. So that needs to be understood.

So it is possible to be a healthy vegetarians long as the person continues eating some animal foods to sustain the physical structure of their body. As long as the person eats plenty of eggs and plenty of high fat and full fat dairy every day, maybe fish occasionally, and maybe meat occasion. In cultures like that, traditional cultures exist in India where people – why do you think the cow is a sacred animal in India? Because they know that without a cow, they will perish, these cultures. She gives them milk, cheese, ghee, butter, cheese, you know, clean. And that sustain them. And also in India, all of these vegetarian cultures, they will have chickens and ducks and they have plenty of eggs. That’s where the feeding comes for them. And they’re not vegetarians by choice these people. The vegetarian is out of necessity, out of poverty. Because they didn’t have access to meat.  There are so many people in India. India has always been very densely populated. If they start eating their animals, they’ll probably eat them all in two weeks or something like that. So they had to – but when they get a chance to eat meat, they don’t say no to it. Or when they get the chance to get fish, they also cherish it and would eat it.

The western style veganism, the religious evangelical veganism, came with the books of Nathan Pritikin in the 1930s to India and created some following in India. But traditional Indians who are vegetarians, they are vegetarians out of necessity, out of poverty. Veganism is not a diet. It is a form of fasting. You’re not feeding your body to any degree. You’re cleansing, cleansing, and cleansing, and cleansing, and cleansing. Many people in our modern world are very toxic. They couldn’t do with a period of cleansing. And these are the people who when they go on a vegan regimen, they start feeling better quite soon. In the first few weeks, they feel so much better. Because a less toxic body feels much better than a toxic one. And also the removal the process junk, they remove the flour and the sugar, the bread, the pasta, and the cakes, and the biscuits, and the sugar. And any person who removes that feels better immediately. Not because of what they’re eating but because of what they’re not eating anymore. They feel better. And this is the time when they usually write the evangelical books and trying to convince everybody to become a leader.

But at a certain point, the body will finish cleansing and it will become hungry. It will give you a signal, “I finished cleansing. Now, feed me.” And the way the body will give that signal is by giving you a desire for a piece of meat, for roasted chicken, for a pot of green, for a piece of cheese, or something else like that. The problem is many vegans in our modern world follow this regimen for emotional reasons, political reasons, religious, ethical reasons and so on. They don’t listen to their body. They override that signal. They force their body to continue cleansing when the body really needs feeding. And that is when the body has no choice but to start cannibalizing less important tissues to feed more important issues, such as muscle. That’s when they start losing muscle, these people. Because the body breaks down muscle to feed the heart, the liver, the lungs, the digestive system, the brain, the more important organs than the muscle. And the person eventually develops [inaudible 01:48:24] degenerative disease. If the person pushes themselves long enough to veganism. So the veganism can be used as a cleansing fast, as a fasting procedure. But it must never be used as a long term lifestyle. We need animal foods as human beings.

I have many anorexic girls in my clinic and some anorexic boys as well. And what I discovered very quickly that more than 90% of these kids became anorexic because of misguided veganism and vegetarianism. Misguided vegetarianism has become a major cause of mental illness amongst our young people. Many youngsters destroy themselves through this propaganda, through this idea. And that spurred me into researching this subject thoroughly. And very quickly, I’ve discovered that there are no scientific studies we can really trust in this area.  All of them have been conducted by pro-vegan and pro-vegetarian [inaudible 01:49:22] manipulates it.

And the data has been specially analyzed. None of them can be trusted. They’re completely untrustworthy, all of these studies. Particularly the China study. The China study has been criticized very heavily already by many people. There are books written about it. Do not trust it. It’s a lie upon lie upon lie. And once I’ve discovered that, I had no choice but to go to basic sciences of biochemistry, of human physiology, of zoology, of animal physiology, anatomy, and clinical experience. My own clinical experience and clinical experience of other doctors. And based on all that research, I have written a book called Vegetarianism Explained. It came out in 2017. So for all those people who are really interested in this subject, please read that book. It will explain to you all the ins and outs of it so that you don’t get into trouble. It is easy to destroy your health and it’s not so easy to rebuild it. I know many recovering vegans and it takes many, many years to get even halfway to healing and rebuilding your body after several years of veganism.



[1:50:34] Ashley James: I’ve recently finished reading a book called the Metabolic Typing Diet. And in the beginning of the book, this doctor shares a story of his mentor who has since passed, was a dentist back in the 50s.



[1:50:51] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Yeah. Donald Kelly. Yeah, I’ve read that.



[1:50:53] Ashley James: Right. He had a really large pancreatic tumor that was sticking out of his gut. Everyone could see it. And the doctor said, “Go home and get ready to die.” And his mom said, “No. You are going to eat vegan.” Well, they did haven’t a word for it back then. “You’re going to eat fruits and vegetables and nuts and seeds and greens and that’s it. We’re going to get you on a vegan diet.” And within months, his pancreatic cancer had shrunk and eventually went away. And so he became a total cheerleader for this diet. And soon, because it was a small town, all the people are coming to him not for dental health but for diet health. And so he put everyone on this diet. Many people saw huge changes, wonderful healings. But there’d be a percentage – a  small percentage of people that would get worse. And he couldn’t figure it out.

Until one day his wife – and this is back in the 50s so, like, they didn’t have many regulations around chemicals. But she was exposed to paint fumes that were toxic and of course disrupted her liver and her mitochondria and everything. And she was bedridden and almost comatose. She was within days of dying, basically. Her body had shut down. And he tried giving her vegetables and fruit and nuts and he was trying to basically put her on the diet that healed her cancer and she got even worse and practically fell into a coma. And so he did the last thing he could possibly think of, “What’s the last thing I haven’t fed my wife is meat.” And he boiled some beef and started feeding her little spoonful’s and she started to get better. And within a day, she was sitting up in bed and he scratched his head and thought, “This is crazy. How come I cured my cancer with no meat? But 100% meat is what helped my wife get better.”

And so he basically sold his practice. Moved to Washington from Texas. And dedicated the rest of his life to studying diets and figuring out why is it that some people can heal eating this way and other people get worse and some people can heal this way. And that’s the big crux of it, is when do we do the GAPS diet? When do we do a vegan cleanse or raw vegan cleanse? When do we do a Paleo diet? When do we do these things to heal certain ailments?



[1:53:20] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Yes, of course. Every human being is unique. One size fits all doesn’t work. Every human being is unique. And depending if your predecessors were Eskimos or from Scandinavia or not somewhere, chances are you don’t need to eat lots of meat and fish and fat. But if your predecessors come maybe from some tropical areas of the world or Mediterranean basin, then you need to eat more carbohydrates. So indeed, every human being is unique. And that’s what this book on metabolic typing tries to assess and has a large questionnaire to help people to assess that.

And what it basically has created, that protein type people, carbohydrate type people. But the majority of people are in the middle somewhere. We’re all mix type. Most of us are mixed type. The only way for us human beings to really know what we need is to get back in touch with human with our body intelligence. Because it is your own body that is keeping lots of checks and balances up in the air every minute of your existence. Depending on what you do and depending on the season, on the weather, on your stress level, your age, and in women depending on the menstrual cycle, wherever you are in the menstrual cycle, depending on all these factors and parameters, your body needs a certain set of nutrients. And it is unique to you.

And the only way the body can let you know what it needs at any particular moment is by giving you desire for a particular food, which you must listen to. And then it’s essential for us human beings to smell before we eat and to taste. And then listen to our insights and our internal organs which will give us a feedback after we’ve eaten it, does this sit well or doesn’t it sit well. And every human being is unique and every day is unique and what satisfied you for breakfast may be repulsive for lunch and vice versa with the dinner. I have a whole – in the book Vegetarianism Explained, I have a whole chapter which is called One Man’s Meat Is Another Man’s Poison. What I explained to people how to get back in touch with your inner body intelligence. So you can feed yourself properly on a daily basis.

Because one day you wake up, depending on the weather, on your hormonal metabolism today, on what you have to do, whether you’re resting on holiday, whether you’ve got an exam coming at lunchtime, or something else, you may devour a full English breakfast. The next day you wake up, you don’t feel like a full English breakfast. You just – a yogurt and an apple will do. But later on – every time your body will give you a signal what it needs right now. And make no mistake, the human body knows the composition of foods on this planet. So if it needs, for example, so much protein, so much fat, so much B12, so much zinc right now, how can your body give you all that information? And even if the body knew how to give you that information, how are you going to go around accomplishing those proportions?

Well, the human body is kind,  nature is kind. It doesn’t ask us to do anything so complicated. It gave us tastes, it gave us senses, the sense of desire for a particular food at a particular moment. So whenever you have a moment to eat and you feel a bit hungry, ask yourself a simple question, “What would I kill for right now?” The answer will pop into your head immediately. And that food will smell divine, taste divine, and it will satisfy you. But after eating that food, you will not be looking for anything else, not snacking, not kind of still feeling unsatisfied. You can forget about the food for a while and go into something else. But if you feed yourself according to some book or some guru or something else, then you are you are likely to be going against your own body and what your body needs at that moment. And as I say, you need change every hour, every minute, all the time. It depends. It’s very, very unique. So no clever doctor and no laboratory and no clever book can ever design what you need to have for breakfast, what do you have for lunch, what you need to have for dinner, what you need to have in between, or whether you should have dinner at all, or whether you should have lunch at all, or not. Only your body knows that. And you need to get back in touch with it. Listen to it. Respect it. And do what it asks you to do. And then you’ll be fine. And I explained that in that article, please read that article.



[1:58:08] Ashley James: I’ll make sure that that is linked in the show notes. You brought up when to eat and sometimes not to eat. That’s an interesting concept because what’s really popular now is the idea of intermittent fasting where we don’t eat until, like, 10:00 a.m. Your book, I believe says, to not eat breakfast until 9:30. That can be very healthy for some people. What about people that wake up first thing in the morning ravished with hunger or maybe they have diabetes and they want to eat earlier, should they listen to their body or should they try to extend that fasting window to 9:30 or 10:00?



[1:58:47] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Intermittent fasting, it’s another fashion. It will pass. There are lots of fashions in nutrition. We have many fashions and now is the fashion for vegetarianism and intermittent fasting. It will pass. There will be other fashions coming in.

Listen to your body. Listen to your body on a daily basis. If you’re not hungry, despite the fact that the member of the family laid a huge dinner on the table, you don’t have to eat now. Listen to your body because you can burn yourself without food. And then it will not digest well and it will only cause disease. It will only cause problems in your body. Eat when you’re hungry. That’s right. Listen to your body. Your body is the expert. Not the book, nothing.

So if you woke up in the morning and you are, obviously, hungry, of course, have a full breakfast and ask yourself what you desire. Because it takes time for people to recover because processed carbohydrates that everybody’s lives on in the world – in the Western world in particular – are addictive. Sugar is the number one addictive substance in the world. The second most addictive substance is wheat flour. Particularly, modern commercial varieties of wheat which are 80 times higher gluten in them. So there’s highly addictive substances. And a lot of humanity is addicted to them. That is why they crave bread and they crave sugar and they drink soft drinks and so on. But if you get back in touch with your body intelligence – with your inner body intelligence, you will need to gradually distinguish is this an addiction or is this what my body really asks for?


[2:00:32] Ashley James: I love it. Yeah, we are addicted to those hyperpalatable foods, the salt, the oil, and the sugar. They mix them together and it becomes this wonderful concoction that makes the brain go crazy for it. So when we first start out asking what do we want, the brain is like, “I want pizza” because the brain wants its crack. It wants its drug. And so we have to heal the gut and start to calm down our senses and think about what is my body say it really wants. Not what do I -what drug of choice do I want? What hyperpalatable highly processed food do I want? It’s what my body really wants to nourish it and start to listen to that. I love it.

I could talk to you for hours. It has been such a pleasure to have you on the show. And I really, really would love to have you back especially after you publish your next book, which I hope that you get lots of time to be able to finish it. Because we’re excited to absorb your latest book. And of course all the links to all your books are going to be in the show notes of today’s podcast at

To wrap up today’s interview, is there anything you’d like to say to the listeners to complete the interview? Anything left unsaid or any homework that you want to impart on us?



[2:01:57] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: I would like to say that the human body is a miraculous creation. It’s a pinnacle of evolution on this planet. It has every mechanism of healing itself and maintaining itself, rejuvenating itself programmed into it. Trust it, and listen to it, and work with it, and never lose hope. I have seen so many miracles happening with the GAPS diet alone. Things that have been classified incurable people recover from. Diseases that have been classified as genetic because we don’t know what else might be causing it. People suddenly recover from them despite the fact that they’ve got the gene that the doctors have tested and found the gene and the person still recovers. So never lose hope. Never give up. If your doctor hasn’t got an answer for you, keep searching because the answer is probably elsewhere. So anything can be healed, I believe. And just trust in the human nature, in the Mother Nature, and in the design of the human body.



[2:03:08] Ashley James: Beautiful. Thank you so much, Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride. It has been such a pleasure having you on the show. You’re welcome back anytime.



[2:03:15] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Thank you very much. Thank you for listening.



[2:03:19] Outro: Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition? And how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity? Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business? Support people in their success? Do you love helping people?

You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program. And it really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over a hundred dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition. But from a standpoint of how we can help people to shift their life and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health. I definitely recommend you check them out.

You can Google Institute for Integrative Nutrition or IIN and give them a call or you can go to and you can receive a free module of their training to check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in. Be sure to mention my name, Ashley James, and the Learn True Health podcast because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out.

It really changed my life to be in their program. And I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information. We need more health coaches. In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctors offices, you can work in hospitals. You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help the your local schools shift their programs to help children be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success and their health goals. There’s so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach.

So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. Mention my name, get the best deal. Give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month. So you’re going to want to call them now and check it out. And if you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.

Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price? For high quality supplements and to talk to someone about what supplements are best for you, go to and one of our fantastic True Health Coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are the highest quality and the best price. That’s That’s Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program.


Get Connected With Dr. Natasha Campbell – McBride!

GAPS Diet Website

Gaps.Me Website



Books by Dr. Natasha Campbell – McBride

Gut and Psychology Syndrome: Natural Treatment for Autism, Dyspraxia, A.D.D., Dyslexia, A.D.H.D., Depression, Schizophrenia


Vegetarianism Explained: Making an Informed Decision



Oct 7, 2019

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Solving Women’s Health Holistically



  • What is Menopause and perimenopause
  • How Vaginal and Vulvar health is very important
  • How to have a healthy vaginal and vulvar health
  • An overall approach to your hormone health is definitely going to help the vaginal tissue, help the vulvar tissues.
  • Change your diet. Eat five cups of vegetables per day. Eat a diet that’s anti-inflammatory for you.


Did you know that having a good and healthy habit in your gut is as important as taking care of your feminine area? That it’s not just important feeling clean “down there” but making sure that it is really clean and free of infections. Today, Dr. Ginger Nash shares her expertise and experiences about feminology in the podcast. Yes, today’s all about us women.



[00:00] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is episode 384. I’m so excited to have back on the show with us Dr. Ginger Nash. She’s a Naturopathic physician and if you’re a long-time listener, you know that my favorite guest is a Naturopath. Dr. Ginger Nash was in episode 317 and she shared about hormone health and her specialty is helping women to balance hormones naturally without using replacements. Like hormone replacements, bioidentical hormones. She doesn’t use that. She helps us to actually help the body get so healthy that it has balanced hormones and today, she’s here to share so much more with us about women’s health. For the male listeners, you might want to listen just because you have a wonderful woman in your life this would be great to pass on the information or maybe to just the whole world going down the rabbit hole you’d never heard of. We’re pretty much going to focus on women’s health but I’m sure there’s some tidbits that men will enjoy. We’re going to let everyone listen. Just know that we’re celebrating women’s health today with Dr. Ginger Nash. Welcome back to the show


[01:21] Dr. Ginger Nash: Thank you, Ashely. I’m so excited to be back. I love your show.


[01:26] Ashley James:  It was such a pleasure having you on episode 317. I know my listeners just loved learning from you. Your website is or you also have another website which is You’ve done a lot of really cool things since we had you on the show. Like you created a course for women around vaginal health. We’ll definitely going to talk about that today. Since you’re on the show last share more with us. What’s happened in your life? What’s going on now?


[01:59] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. I’m a busy gal and I’m an Aries so I tend to take on some project but one of the biggest things is started working out of a another office. One of my offices is in New Haven, Connecticut. I joined another practice. My friend and colleague, Dr. Jaquel Patterson who happens to be the president of our national organization. The Association of Naturopathic Physicians. That’s cool. Jaquel and I have known each other for a number of years. She’s awesome and she bought a practice from a doctor. Dr. Darin Ingles and who really focused in Connecticut as you well know there is a tremendous amount of Lyme and other tech borne diseases and post Lyme syndrome. His practice is very much focused on Lyme and those pathogens which I am also familiar with but Dr. Patterson brought me on as a women’s health expert. I started doing some new therapies down there that I’m excited about and I’d love to share more about with you and your listeners. In two offices now, just making my life that much more complex and fun but it’s really great because as you know Ashley, Naturopathic doctors there’s just never a day where we don’t learn something new. Many days we learn many new things. The body’s so complex and there’s so much to learn and there so much in the world of natural medicine for us to continually investigate.


[03:33] Ashley James: You want to hire a doctor who loves learning and who’s constantly learning and staying up on the science and has their mind open. Wiling to keep looking. If you go to a doctor who’s a know-it-all who kind of goes, “Pft, diet doesn’t matter. Just take this prescription.” Whatever. They close you off. They go, “That doesn’t work. No, that doesn’t do anything. Doesn’t do anything. “ They’re not willing to even investigate or look or learn. Fire that doctor and go find a doctor who loves learning.


[04:07] Dr. Ginger Nash: I love your passion about this Ashley. So true.


[04:09] Ashley James:  Right? I think just like in the last day, I’ve had three listeners either private messaged me or in the Facebook group asked about this. It’s frustrating for me because we have been raised to put doctors on the pedestal and we give up our personal power the moment we walk into their office because we’ve been taught that they have all the answers and we don’t know nothing.


[04:32] Dr. Ginger Nash: Right. I say to people all the time, “You know your body better than I do but this is a journey we’re going to do together.”


[04:39] Ashley James:  Absolutely. You want to go to a doctor who scratches her head but goes, “You know what, I don’t really understand what’s going on in your body but let’s discover it together. I’m going to dive into the research. Let’s figure out how to support your body holistically. Let’s try get to the root cause.” I love that what you do when you work with women you don’t just go, “Oh, your progesterone’s low. Here let’s slap some cream on you and go home.” That doesn’t solve the problem. Why is the progesterone low? What’s going on in the body as a whole. That’s what you love to look at.


[05:07] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes, totally. Sometimes hormonal balances are part of a normal life cycle because as women, we certainly go through puberty and the we go through puberty in reverse which is menopause and perimenopause. Sometimes there’s things that are happening in the body that may be causing uncomfortable symptoms and discomfort but sometimes you have to normalize some of it and that’s a big role for me as a physician sometimes with women going through those big changes and post-partum is another major transitional phase in a woman’s life. For those of us that have had children.


[05:48] Ashley James: Something I hear is, women are going in menopause earlier and earlier in a very unnatural way because of the level of stress. Physical stress, emotional stress but also the stress of the toxicity in our life, the endocrine-disrupting chemicals are constantly exposed to in our air, water, our food. Even just touching a receipt, the bisphenol touching. Every time you pick up a receipt from the grocery store, you’re touching a chemical that is a endocrine disruptor. We’re exposed constantly to these stressors in the body and then with the emotional stress of having to manage our elderly parents for a lot of people, our children, our partner, our job. Having to manage everything and oftentimes putting ourselves last. All the stress is leading us into early menopause. Have you seen that in your practice?


[06:45] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. I really have. It’s amazing that you bring that up because just yesterday, I had a 42-year-old woman who does not have post Lyme syndrome or what I suspect in many others a lot of pathogens be that can sometime disrupt the endocrine system and cause premature ovarian failure. I see more and more women that in their early 40’s they’re really starting to show signs of perimenopause where the whole symphony of the female hormones, starting in the brain of course then affecting the ovaries and the adrenal glands. It’s also out of whack that women are experiencing much more severe types of symptoms at an earlier age. That’s a really good point, Ashley. That I definitely see in my practice. The topics are part of it too. Of course, yes, all the endocrine disruptors. There are over 50,000 chemicals that are in our environment that weren’t around a hundred years ago. Our genetics and our epigenetics can’t keep up. We’re just a lot more toxic obviously.


[07:57] Ashley James:  Recently the World Health Organization said that the world’s average is age 52 for going into menopause.


[08:09] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. I’ve read 51 actually.


[08:12] Ashley James:  Okay. Yes, 51. Women in the United States more and more and then in other industrialized nations. Where we are over toxic, overstressed and undernourished that we are falling into menopause 10 years early.


[08:30] Dr. Ginger Nash: Then sometimes, of course, women with endocrine disruptors, hormonal imbalances, more of inflammatory estrogen stimulation. They’re maybe more prone to fibroids or endometriosis which is more of an inflammatory condition than anything. If they have severe problems with their bleeding patterns. They get hysterectomy. Sometimes that can really throw women into premature menopause or if they’ve been diagnosed with breast cancer and then they’re treated with chemotherapy or these estrogen blockers. There’s all sorts of chemical interventions and surgical interventions that can make a woman, overnight her hormone levels can really plummet. There’s those types of phenomenon that are happening more frequently as well.


[09:26] Ashley James:  Maybe you can help us understand, should we try to stay off menopause as long as possible? Is it part of longevity that we stay in a premenopausal state or a perimenopausal state as much as possible?


[09:44] Dr. Ginger Nash: That’s a really good question. Of course, what happens technically with menopause is you stop ovulating. The role of progesterone, which is only produced after an ovulation once that corpus luteum starts secreting progesterone. The role of progesterone is hugely important women in terms of balancing out the amount of estrogen they have. Of course, if you’re overweight or you do have a lot of endocrine disruptor exposures or you’re toxic etc. You could have a lot more estrogenic activity, your receptors might be extra sensitive, etc. The lack of that progesterone is really what is a big part of the hallmark classic symptoms of menopause as much as the lowering amounts of estrogen and testosterone. It’s an interesting question that you bring up. In some ways, I’m 51 and a half. I’m still menstruating every month and in some ways, just intuitively in my body that feels right. It feels like my youth or my younger tissue levels of hormones and all that is being sustained. I feel like that does contribute to longevity. I agree it’s a probably a good thing, not that you can really stay off menopause naturally, it is a natural process. It is something to be embraced and something that women are really coming to terms within a positive sense. I’m happy to say. I think you know, if these unnatural processes give you a premature perimenopause or menopause then yes, that’s probably going to impact your long term health and your longevity because those hormones are incredibly important. Hormones are so powerful. They do so many things on so many tissues in the body. It’s really fascinating too because human women, I think there’s like a species of whale maybe sperm whales or killer whales. I can’t remember. Are the only species that go through menopause “early” because a lot of species they are able to bear children or offspring much closer to the point of their death. There’s been a lot of interesting conjecture about why that is for humans. We are one of the very few species that does go through menopause early compared to other animals. It’s interesting but we obviously have quite, humans are different in so many ways. We obviously have longer life span than many other animals.


[12:43] Ashley James: I guess my understanding about progesterone is that it’s a youthful hormone. That it helps to make sure that we have strong bones, you can fill in the details. What is it about before menopause these hormone levels that we have what is about these hormone levels that we want to keep as naturally balanced as possible to extend our life and to extend our youth so that tissues doesn’t sag. So that we look when we look younger but also that we have healthier bones. [Crosstalk]


[13:20] Ginger Nash: Yes, definitely. Estrogen is also the queen of female hormones and really important for longevity and youth. A lot of women who are afraid of gynecological cancer, breast cancer, uterine cancer, cervical cancer, they have missed conceived notions about estrogen because healthy levels of estrogen are incredibly important as are healthy levels of progesterone. These two hormones, you really can’t even separate them, Ashley. They’re both so important and they balance the relative balance of estrogen and progesterone is so important. This is why women have a monthly cycle. Where the first two weeks of the cycle is quite different than the 2nd two weeks of the cycle because the first two weeks are really driven by estrogen and 2nd two weeks after you ovulate is driven by progesterone. Progesterone doesn’t have a specific effect on the nervous system so it’s more of the calming hormone where the estrogen is more stimulating and problems of hyper estrogen can maybe even overstimulate the brain sometimes. Of course, if you have low estrogen you can have brain fog and memory issues and all of that. It’s really the relative balance and every tissues that had estrogen receptors also have progesterone receptors. Estrogen makes the uterine lining grow. Estrogen is our main growth hormone. It makes cell turnover in the breast whereas program maintains the uterine lining. Progesterone slows down the cell turnover in the breast. Every part of your body that’s being affected by estrogen it has a balancing effect from progesterone on that same tissue. It’s really critical to understand and like I said earlier, menopause is a natural part of a woman’s life stages just as puberty is when you’re having some cycles where you’re not ovulating in puberty necessarily. Right away, it’s considered normal for young girls up to 2 years to not have regular cycles. At perimenopause the same thing is happening. That’s really where all the symptoms come in at puberty and at menopause it’s because the body has to find and recalibrate that balance point between estrogen and progesterone again. That happens all over including in the vulva and the vaginal tissues, which is another important part of the body that really is affected by both estrogen and progesterone. A lot of women feel uncomfortable talking about this part of their body sadly. The word vagina, classic Eve Ensler. However, many years ago. Must be 20 years ago now.


[16:14] Ashley James:  Vagina monologues?


[16:16] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes, vagina monologues. She has to make a whole Broadway show just so people can say the word vagina. It’s great. I do think women are getting more comfortable. Really being embodied and that’s certainly part of my work in feminology is to help educate women about what normal function is for their body and really learning to listen to the signals from their body including the vaginal area and the vulvar area. One of the things that my college in feminology Dr. Tara Nayek when we did our little vaginal course which I love. She started out with terminology because a lot of women refer to sort of everything down there. Again, I’m doing the air quotes “down there” as the vagina when really the vagina is actually the canal that gets penetrated during sexual intercourse. It’s the vulvar area in the outside of the bodies that we have a lot more symptomatology and a lot more familiarity with. I do want to say just at the outset I think that was so great for Tara to bring that up. There’s a lot of confusion even just about the anatomy of our own bodies which is just so amazing. In 2019 we’re still –


[17:40] Ashley James:  It’s almost 2020. We don’t know our vulva from our vagina. But now we do.


[17:50] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes, totally. Some of the other stuff that we discussed in the course that was really fun to educate women about was how we had this whole, magical vulvar magical vagina because it is this amazing self-cleaning, self-lubricating and it makes it’s own hormones. It really has its own ecosystem. The vaginal canal. Women who have imbalances in hormones and women who have with chronic vaginitis like yeast or BV or chronic herpes conditions etc. they will tell you that when there’s imbalance and symptoms in the area in the body it could be incredibly uncomfortable and distracting making you feel like you can’t really think about anything else. There’s a lot of that going on in my practice certainly. I treat a lot of women with vaginitis and vulvodynia and problems in that area.


[18:54] Ashley James:  We want to get into that. I think it’s very interesting. You mention that when we have low estrogen that we have the brain fog. Interesting symptoms that I’ve have in the last is I’ll forget nouns. We’ll know it the certain time of month. My husband will look at me and be like, “Oh, all right.” Looking at the calendar, “Okay. It’s that time of the month again.” Because I’ll be like, “Can you please put that thing in the thing?” I can’t remember. “That thing, can you put that thing? Can you go get that thing and put the thing in the thing?” he has to guess what I’m saying because I don’t remember.


[19:26] Dr. Ginger Nash: In my house, we call that a Johnny. We just refer to everything as a Johnny when we don’t have the noun. Like, “Put the Johnny in the Johnny.” Over there by the Johnny is where the Johnny is.” [Laughter]


[19:36] Ashley James:  Until now when I learned that it’s actually a hormone thing. Interesting.


[19:41] Dr. Ginger Nash: Does it happen at the very end of your period or just a few days after your period is over –


[19:48] Ashley James:  It’s like sort of beginning of the cycle is when it’s happening the most.


[19:54] Dr. Ginger Nash: That’s when estrogen is the lowest.


[19:56] Ashley James: Right. I don’t find that I do it often in an interview which is great. I’m so thankful my brain doesn’t pay attention to my hormonal levels when I’m doing interviews. I’ll be get off an interview be like, “Honey, could you go get me that thing. The thing, the thing over there.” I do it less and less because I have been balancing my hormones more and more especially just the healthier I get this whole since starting the podcast I’ve lost close to 70 pounds.


[20:35] Dr. Ginger Nash:  Oh my goodness. Good for you. That’s amazing.


[20:37] Ashley James:  I’ve told my story many times but basically I’ve had chronic adrenal fatigue, type II diabetes, polycystic ovarian syndrome, and infertility and chronic infections. All through my 20’s and into the early parts of my 30’s and then I found natural medicine and started shopping the perimeter of the store.


[20:58] Dr. Ginger Nash: On the corner, one day and I bumped right into [Inaudible 21:02] in the corner.


[21:03] Ashley James:  Yes. Exactly. She said, shop the perimeter of the store and stop eating crap food. We ended up seeing Naturopaths and getting on this bandwagon and one thing led to another. My diabetes went away. My polycystic ovarian syndrome slowly got better. Everyone I talked to says, “Well, my doctor says I’m going to have it for life.” I’m like, “Yes, my doctor said I’m going to have it for life too but you know what I was seeing an MD, not an ND.” If you see and ND and you see a good ND, they’re going to say let’s see how much you can heal. Let’s get your body as healthy as you can.” All those problems I had are gone. We conceived our son naturally. I was told by an endocrinologist I was never going to have kids. It was all-natural.


[21:48] Dr. Ginger Nash: I hate when I hear that. That’s so awful.


[21:51] Ashley James:  Yes. For me, I’ve been doing this investing in my health for 10 years. I’m about to be 40 and I feel healthier and younger than I did 10 years ago. It’s worth it.


[22:06] Dr. Ginger Nash: It’s amazing. That’s totally amazing.


[22:07] Ashley James:  It’s worth eating healthy and taking supplements when needed making lifestyle changes and doing all the things we learn from guests like you. It’s worth it because 10 years, for now, you’re going to feel younger than you do now.


[22:18] Dr. Ginger Nash: That’s awesome. That’s so great. It’s really about learning and empowering yourself to take care of yourself and not putting giving your power away to a medical intervention and something that, I can’t believe it hasn’t even come up yet when I was talking about estrogen and progesterone balance and the impotence of those. Certainly any women who has been diagnosed with PCOS. It’s like, “Okay, you’ve have all these problems. What’s the solution from the mainstream medical model is to put you on the birth control pill.” What does that do about suppress all your hormones level? There’s very strong connection in the literature actually about longevity and anti-aging and all of that. Women are on the pill for 20-30 years sometimes. It’s unreal. This is just considered normal way to manage your symptoms but what you’re doing is you’re shutting down that entire endocrine system. That entire symphony of your hormones. That’s going to have huge effect on almost every body system. I’m so happy to hear that you were aware enough to take your health into your hands and really heal. Part of a Naturopath’s training is the patient is part of the journey as we said earlier but also just that we learned from our patients and that we need to empower them to take care of their health. That’s really amazing. I can’t believe you lost 75 pounds, that’s radical. Ashley. That’s so radical. You’ve had how may children?


[24:06] Ashley James:  One. One amazing son. We might have another one. He’s 4 and a half years old. He’s absolutely the light of our life and it was a very healthy, he was a very healthy baby. Everything was great. It’s just our focus is on supporting the body’s ability to maintain health and do that through food. It’s funny that we have this really interesting concept in modern-day society where we don’t see a connection bet what we put in our mouth and the cells that we grow. We were literally made of food. We started out as this 8-pound baby and we just ate and ate and grew but now as adults we just eat whatever we want. We eat the standard American diet and we don’t see that there is consequence to what we put in our mouth. Because we have this false belief that everything is safe. Otherwise, they shouldn’t produce things that aren’t safe.


[25:12] Dr. Ginger Nash: Do you know who Dr. Peter Osborne is? He’s done a lot of work with gluten sensitivity and celiac disease and I just listen to a friend of mine’s podcast. Excellent podcast. He had Peter Osborne on and was talking about the history of enriched grains in this country. How cereals became this huge part of our diet and how they were never really meant to be used in such high quantities but of course, because of monocrops and monoculture, agriculture and the way that it’s presented to us. I never really had made this connection before I don’t know if you have, Ashley but if you buy a loaf of regular bread which you probably don’t, I don’t usually buy regular bread but it’s like it will say enriched with B vitamins, thiamine, etc. that’s because the grains are not naturally nutritious enough. It’s not because these processes took them out it’s like cereals and grains. We need to be eating way more vegetables, way more whole foods. If you eat animal products from healthy raised animals not fed antibiotics and corn from the time they were born just to be slaughtered. That is not a healthy form of meat consumption and talk about endocrine disruption. The amount of hormone that you’re exposed to in commercially raised meat product and dairy is way beyond what you’d ever get in just exposures of lesser intensity. You’re absolutely right. The whole role of food in our health is just not acknowledged by medicine. Which is crazy right? It’s crazy that doctors literally tell people, “Your diet doesn’t have anything to do with your digestive problems. Not to mention your hormone problems.”


[27:21] Ashley James:  Right. In reversing type two diabetes which was – the first thing I reversed was my chronic monthly infections. Every month I was on antibiotics. The first change we made after watching, it was like Forks over Knives. It was in 2008. It was one of the first health documentaries that Netflix ever streamed. Streaming is like brand new. I think it was Fork over Knives or was it Food, Inc.? It was one of those two. I think we saw Food, Inc. in the movie theaters but any as back then we saw both of them. Between 2008-2009 they said, vote with your fork, vote with your fork. If you don’t like something in the industry like don’t put money in something you don’t like put money in the things you do like. Buy organic if you want to support organic. Then they said shop the perimeter of the store. I thought, “Okay, we’re going to give it a shot.” That month my infections went away. I thought, “I just made one change. What else could I change?” I gave my body over to the MD and they just kept giving me drug after drug and never telling me that I could stop the infections by not eating crap food. I wasn’t sitting there with a bunch of Oreos or Lucky Charms or whatever and Twinkies. I wasn’t sitting there with Halloween candy like every day. I was just eating how everyone else ate. That was enough to make my body unable to handle infections. After that then I reversed my type II diabetes and I did it totally with food.


[29:03] Dr. Ginger Nash: That’s amazing. I’m sure that all those antibiotics that you had taken that just makes you overgrow yeast and then if you’re sensitive to yeast then forget it. You’re just going to get inflammatory process after inflammatory process all over your body


[29:19] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes, exactly. Having to fight yeast infection and urinary tract infections at the same time. That made me want to look, “What can I do naturally?” because I didn’t want to have to keep going over and over again to get anti-biotic for this what seemed like that was a wakeup call for me when I saw my vagina’s out of balance. What’s going on? My vulva and vagina, right? Now knowing that there’s both those we should really address the whole thing. we’ve had people in the Learn True Health Facebook group, not people, we’ve had women talk about they have yeast infections and UTIs and what to do about it. There’s so much great holistic information out the. I definitely want to get into how we can create a healthier relationship with our vagina and vulva because you have such a great course that you created talking about microbiome and what we can do on a natural level. The reason why I shared my story is to illustrate that something as simple as food can really shift our health hugely. Traditional doctors like MDs who go to medical school, wonderful people, best of intentions, they’re great to go to when out needed drug, when we needed surgery or procedure but they don’t have any training in how to use diet in healing the body. Oftentimes we’re going to the wrong doctor. Going to a Naturopath to help us to heal the body is the right doctor to go to. There’s my little soapbox and getting off of it.


[31:07] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. Thank you. I appreciate people like you so much that have really taken it to wider audience. It’s not just Naturopaths talking to other Naturopaths and our patients. It really is a much bigger platform that you helped create Ashley. I think that’s great. We need to hear it from more people outside of the profession about what Naturopathic medicine can do for them. Thank you for the support.


[31:35] Ashley James:  Absolutely. I’m the biggest cheerleader, biggest fan of Naturopaths. You’ll ever have. You’ll ever have. Can you tell us in your experience working clinically helping women to balance their hormones? What kind of diet changes have you helped women make? That then you’ve seen in the bloodwork that their hormones became into healthier levels because of those diet changes?


[32:00] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes, that’s a great question. Hormones that we’ve talked about so far, estrogen, progesterone, testosterone are all the reproductive hormones. Of course, we’ve got the stress hormones. Cortisol, DHEA, etc. and then the hormones that food affects first and foremost, of course, is insulin and some of the pancreatic secretions that are immediately affected by your diet and this is why I’m sure Ashley, part of your journey in healing yourself of PCOS had to do with your insulin levels. I think a lot of people are familiar with the term insulin resistance. A lot of my dietary recommendations come from one of my main teachers who is Dr. Peter D’Adamo who is the doctor of blood type diet thing and I know you are familiar with his work as well. Lately, I’ve been thinking a lot more about Peter’s work because there’s this anti-lectin diet that’s out there in the world now. It just drives me a little baddy because the whole point of lectins is that they’re choosy. Some of them are actually beneficial lectins some of them are negative lectins and depending on what your blood type is.

Means there are certain lectins and foods which are basically sugar-loving proteins that can attach to our blood type antigen which is the sugar. Depending on your blood type antigen, different lectin can have different effects in your body. This is not the veal or anything. Some people have dramatic profound changes just from following a blood type diet. Other people need more tweaking and more finesse but the blood type is always someplace I start because it does mean a tremendous amount about who you are as a biochemical individual to know if you’re blood type O, blood type A, blood type B or AB. That’s always where I’m going to start with diet. Even if I don’t give somebody I use Dr. D’Adamo’s software the SWAMI genotyping diet software for people. In the beginning when I’m working with people, men and women I’m trying to address dietary issues. I may just make some broad stroke recommendations. I always start out with some of the very fundamentals of the blood type diet approach. I have just seen clinically over 20 years a tremendous amount of consistency with people who are blood type A cannot really digest red meat as well as people who are blood type O or B. That might be just one thing I start with.

It’s amazing and maybe you heard this a lot yourself because I know you’ve talked to a lot of people. It’s amazing how a lot of times people will say intuitively that they feel better when they’re eating more according to their blood type. That’s always the starting point or the jumping-off point. When it comes to hormones, one of the things that’s important in terms of hormonal imbalance is whether your gut is clearing the hormones properly. That’s phase three detoxification of all of our hormones. Starting with gut health is always a really commonplace and what’s one of the things that you do several time a day as a therapy for your gut is eat food. Food can be medicine. Food can be therapy. It’s not like I’m specifically saying, “Oh, eat this food which is good for your hormone.” but obviously, we want to minimize the amount of the inflammation in the gut. We want to minimize food sensitivity reactions. We want to minimize the destruction of the gut lining which lectins also play a role in the health of the microvilli in the small intestine which is where all your nutrients are absorbed. That’s always the jumping-off point. The real 30 seconds breakdown is type O’s are tend to be more carnivorous. Type A’s tend to do better with less animal proteins in their diet. Type B’s are what we call idiosyncratic omnivore. There’s some idiosyncratic lectin relationships. Then I’m always interested in looking at someone’s metabolic type. Layered on top of the blood type. For someone if I can use you as an example Ashley I don’t know what your blood type is but if you’ve got PCOS you’ve definitely got some thrifty metabolic tendencies. Meaning when your body is restricted from calories or if it’s eating a lot of empty calories, refined sugars and refined carbohydrates, it’s going to suck those calories away as fat for future times of deprivation. If you’re not giving your body good nutrient-dense foods if you have a thrifty metabolic type. You’re actually going to have a very hard time starving yourself into losing weight and you’re going to feel like crap. You’re going to be irritable, you’re going to be hangry, you’re hormone are going to be completely imbalanced. Your mood can be affected etc.

It’s really important to understand if somebody has that thrifty metabolic type to find the foods that are going to stoke the digestive fires and be healthy sources of calories and nutrients for that person. Depending on whether you’re a type O with a thrifty metabolic type or a type A with a thrifty metabolic type layered on top I would make diff kinds of food recommendations. One thing I can say across the board which I think you probably already know, hopefully, a lot of your listeners already know is that, the amount of whole foods, meaning vegetables and fruits and those types of high fiber foods are going to be excellent for keeping your hormones balanced because the fibers really feed the beneficial bacteria that help your body eliminate excess inflammatory estrogens and some of the excess toxins that are in your system that might be having that feedback to your hormonal balance as well. High fiber is sort of a general statement that I can make across the board that’s beneficial for both gut health and inflammation and the therefore hormonal health. Then also foods that are really beneficial to feed the beneficial bacteria. There’s a lot of types of probiotic supplementation out there that some of those things have the prebiotic fiber in them and healthy fibers and then there things like large arabino galectin and supplements but some of those things can actually just amplify the effects of a healthy diet. It’s always got to address the diet and the gut health no matter what the imbalance or chronic problem is.


[39:25] Ashley James:  How much fiber is a good – I mean not like I’m sitting there with Metamucil or flax going, “Well, I got to put another five tablespoons,” not like that but if we were to eat a pound –


[39:39] Dr. Ginger Nash: Five cups.


[39:40] Ashley James:  Five cups of vegetables a day?


[39:43] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. That or fruits because fruits are high in fiber as well. Blueberries are ounce per ounce one of the highest-fiber foods there are. That’s a good rule of thumb. It’s like five cups. Over the summer I lost some weight myself, I was perimenopausal as I’ve mentioned earlier. I’m still cycling but I had put on 10 pounds without really knowing it and then I stepped on the scale and I’m like, “Oh, that’s interesting. My pants feel a little diff.” I did actually start to measure out some of my foods just for a short period of time so I could really get an eyeball. It’s amazing if you start eating five cups of vegetables or fruits per day, your elimination system is going to definitely improve. Last year eating a ton of processed refined flour products which can certainly slow down the bowel movement and create more irritated mucus which can then give you some digestive problems. If you just simply add in foods and I really like to do that as well with my patient base because I like to focus on the things that are beneficial and use food as medicine rather than having people focus on a restrictive mindset all the time. If you just naturally start adding in five cups of veggies that’s going to be so much more filling that you’re just not going to eat as much as the processed refined foods. That’s a good blanket statement that I can make because really all the dietary advice I give is pretty highly individualized.


[41:30] Ashley James: Oh, for sure. Absolutely. Someone with small intestine overgrowth is going to have a totally different diet than someone who has GERD. Right absolutely.


[41:37] Dr. Ginger Nash: Except their vegetables. Yes, totally. Another cool little dietary thing before we leave that topic there is a great carrot salad recipe that I’ve recommend dot a lot of women. If you just grate some organic carrots, of course, they can be heirloom, they can be the regular orange ones whatever you like, a grated carrot with a little tiny bit of lemon juice, little bit of olive oil, sea salt or if you do apple cider vinegar in small amounts. Even some of the other vinegars that can be really excellent for helping balance your estrogens. That’s a little food thing that almost everyone can tolerate carrots. I haven’t met too many patients that are sensitive to carrots. Generally, that’s a rule.


[42:30] Ashley James:  Why is a carrot salad good for balancing hormones?


[42:34] Dr. Ginger Nash: It has a certain amount of fibers in it and it feeds some of those beneficial bacteria. It has an effect on the calcium d-glucarate in the gut which helps your body eliminate inflammatory estrogen. Isn’t that cool?


[42:49] Ashley James:  Yes, it’s very cool. Before we move on to the vaginal health, I definitely want to get to that. You mentioned gut-clearing hormones being phased three. For those who don’t know, can you just explain what that is? We hear that high estrogens really bad for us but we don’t know the difference between the estrogen the body makes and the estrogen the body want to eliminate?


[43:11] Dr. Ginger Nash: Right. Perfect. There’s three different major metabolic pathways or clearance if you will. It’s what happens in your liver to your hormones to help your hormones break down and be eliminated from your body phase one is the first phase of that process. Phase two and I don’t need to go into a big biochemistry lecture. Basically your liver had to go through phase one and phase two and then it kicks into the gut because the blood that circulates from the liver gets emptied into the gut. Then it’s phase three elimination or detoxification is what is related to the health of your microbiome and actually getting those hormone byproducts into your stool so that you can eliminate them. Some of the hormone testing that I use is a urinary metabolite testing. We can actually see how well those liver enzymes are doing in terms of eliminating the various estrogens and which pathway they’re going down because if you got a high – what’s called 4-hydroxy pathway, if you’ve got  a lot of the estrogens going down that pathway you’re going to be a lot more symptomatic.

The 16 pathway also gives you a lot of symptoms like PMS, bloating, the discomfort that a lot of women feel prior to their period and then the 4 pathways is the one that really is more inflammatory and does damage to the DNA. It’s sort of the pre-cancerous pathway. Then the two pathway is the pathway that you would like to see preferentially in a woman. You can do hormone testing through urine metabolites as I’ve said. We can see is your body doing a good job of eliminating these estrogens? Because as we have said from the beginning of the conversation, we don’t want to just have low estrogen that’s not good. Estrogen is really important and it’s especially important after we go through menopause because it is an anti-aging type of hormone in our bodies. Of course, we don’t want to get type of estrogen that’s going to lead to a breast cancer or another type of overgrowth of the cells in an unhealthy way where the DNA is damaged and you’re more likely to have a cancer formation.


[45:43] Ashley James:  Got it. So once a body’s done with the estrogen we need to clear it out


[45:49] Dr. Ginger Nash: That’s phase three.


[45:52] Dr. Ginger Nash: Right. What I hear is that when we have constipation for example or we’re just not having enough healthy bowel movement in the body that the gut reabsorbs and can actually reactivate the estrogen so we can become estrogen dominant because of our gut health, because of poor gut health.


[46:12] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes, we could recirculate the estrogens and if you’re taking hormone replacement even bioidentical hormones they can be problematic in terms of the recirculation and you can get elevated levels of certain hormones if you’re moving your bowels in a regular basis. Absolutely. Hugely important topic of healthy bowel movement. I talked to people about poop every day. [Laughter] “Hi, nice to meet you. Please take off most of your clothes so I can do a whole-body thermography scan and now we’re going to talk about your poop.” People have to get real conformable real quick. Actually you know, the health of the vaginal microbiome is related to this too. I think it’s really fascinating that the vagina which is designed to have something come in from the outside it’s an area that’s exposed. Its’ muscle membranes that are exposed to the outside world. It doesn’t have the diversity that the gut microbiome has. You actually don’t want a great diversity of flora in the vaginal tissue as you do in the gut. The effects of antibiotics or the effects of the birth control pill or a number of drugs event he effects of PPI’s and other things that are used to manage digestive symptoms can have a huge effect on not just the microbiome of your gut but the vaginal microbiome as well. You can get a lot of problem with overgrowth in both systems and you need to address them differently.


[47:56] Ashley James:  How do we address yeast infections or that would be the overgrowth right? We call that a yeast infection?


[48:02] Dr. Ginger Nash: Well, it depends because you can get overgrowth of other things too. Yeast is probably one of the most common organisms that we see overgrowing and not only that Ashley, it doesn’t always – again, it’s like I with everything was a little bit more simple but it’s not. Sometimes for a lot of women it, not a matter of how much yeast they actually have in their bodies. By the way, type O’s definitely have a higher what’s called candida carriage. We just have higher levels of yeast because blood type O antigen is a preferred food source for candida and other yeast. Type O’s might have higher levels of yeast but it’s also a matter of how sensitive the person is to the yeast in their system. This is going down a little bit of a tangent. I’ll get back to answering your question.


[48:58] Ashley James: I love this tangent. Keep going.


[48:59] Dr. Ginger Nash: That’s one of the things that I’m working with these new therapies and the office that I’m working in Fairfield, Connecticut now which is called Fairfield family health is doing LDA and LDI therapy. I don’t know if you’re familiar with these but they’re therapies that have been around basically since the 1950s. They have grown in popularity recently although they’re still pretty new to the world of natural medicine and they were created by medical doctors. What it is it’s immune desensitization or immune tolerance to various substances. You can do the treatment LDA for environmental sensitives for food sensitivities and you give a very small dose. This is why it just made so much sense to me once I started familiarizing myself with this and being educated and now I’ve listened to a tremendous amount of info I’m actually going to my first conference about this on Oct 9th. It just makes so much sense because it’s not a matter of having an infection of having toxins in your system that you can’t get rid of because you’re so overwhelmed with the environmental toxins like food toxins. It’s more a matter of your immune system getting caught in this vicious cycle of creating to something. This is where something like LDA can be really helpful because it gives you infinitesimal doses like homeopathic doses essentially. These substances that give your body a tolerance to various substances. Like I said, the LDAS are more for the environmental and the food sensitivities but the LDI is really the outgrowth from DR. Ty Vincent of LDI therapy and he’s turned it low dose immunotherapy and that’s using more specific pathogens. I’ve used candida and yeast and also I treat a tremendous amount of Lyme disease and co-infection and there’s an entire Lyme next so you can use this specific pathogens to break that cycle of sensitivity. It’s not like you’re using oregano oil or boric acid or diatomaceous earth or all this things that can kill yeast. you’re using something that actually helps your immune system become more tolerant to his thing that’s in our bodies. We all have yeast in our systems. It’s just a matter of have we been antibiotics ten times in the last ten years? Do we have this incredible overgrowth or do we just have a certain sensitivity to the yeast and that’s really what’s driving all of our symptoms.


[52:05] Ashley James:  Got it. If someone doesn’t have a massive overgrowth but if their immune system is mounting this massive response to a small amount of yeast which naturally occurs in all of us then it’s more about dealing with an allergy.


[52:20] Dr. Ginger Nash: Exactly. You can even use, it gets really deep. It’s a beautiful approach really and I love that Dr. Vincent is totally transparent about how we really don’t know like the science is not there. The research has not been done, there’s been advances in this type of therapy but we really don’t know. We think we understand what’s happening is that the substances that’s administered in this very small amount Is up regulating the T-lymphocytes and giving your immune system a chance to recognize if you will. This is something that doesn’t need to go crazy and attack. It’s giving you that tolerance and desensitizing your system to this particular substance. One of the things that I’m really excited about treating using this therapy is Hashimoto’s thyroid because there’s a pretty strong case and literature for a pathogen called Yersinia to stimulate to be the trigger to this autoimmune thyroid disease and we can uses LDI to again create a situation in the body where it’s not making the antibodies. You can see this with follow-ups, with blood tests for antibody levels you can see it with yeast. You can see it with Hashimoto’s. The ATA and the TPO anti-bodies you can see it with all the lime pathogens, abicia, Bartonella and I’ve also been starting to treat some women with herpes simplex virus that have had outbreaks of herpes for many years. When you know the offending trigger what the pathogen is that might be involved in any of these processes and certainly in terms of vaginal health and yeast overgrowth you can absolutely sue this type of therapy to desensitize the person to the yeast that is present.

You may also want to do some yeast killing. It depends that’s based on clinical context of “Did they get a wet prep? The gynecologist said, “You know yes, there’s tremendous amount of yeast.” or there’s BV or there’s others organisms or there’s just a lot of white blood cells which means it’s an immune-mediated inflammation and that can happen with chronic UTIs as well. That’s another thing that a lot of women struggle with this chronic UTIs and the more antibiotics they get put on, what’s going to happen? They’re just going develop more candida overgrowth and then that could potentially stimulate an inflammatory process. There’s a lot of creative ways to address this. I just love the idea of supporting the immune system because that to me is through Naturopathic medicine. That’s what we learned in school and what I was definitely reinforced with by Dr. Jaquel, my main homeopathic teacher was that we’re not born with this specific immune system, we have to learn as babies what is self first. Recognize what our self-tissues look like and antigens look like. Then our immune system has to learn specific defenses. Some of this process this immunological process gets really confused that’s why there’s so much autoimmune disease.

Again, we destroyed our microbiomes. We’ve been exposed to all this toxins. We’ve been exposed to all this antigens and climate change has encouraged the rampant spread of tech borne diseases and mosquito-borne disease and all that. As a population, we’re really dealing with a lot more chronic pathogens but even once we’ve cleared the infection stage, we may still have this immune process that’s continuing like a vicious cycle. It’s a really exciting time for me personally as a doctor because I, for many years used a number of complex homeopathic to support the nonspecific aspect of the immune system. With nutrient and with diet as well. I’ve done a lot with supporting the nonspecific aspects of inflammation and histamine reactions. Cytokines and all those kinds of things. Now I’m starting to use more of the specific antigens with it. It’s really been cool. I’m seeing some really great results already. It’s very exciting.


[57:17] Ashley James:  Yes. You mentioned all the things that have caused our immune system to go haywire in the last 30 years, what about vaccines? Now, by 2015 by the age of six children would receive 49 doses of vaccines. By the age six. A total of about 70 doses of vaccines are recommended by the time they’re like 21 or something like that. Whereas when I was a child, it was maybe 16?


[57:51] Dr. Ginger Nash: Wow. Yes. You know you’re going to drag me into the vaccine conversation.


[57:55] Ashley James:  No. I meant I don’t want to like – because that’s a whole episode onto itself but do you think that – [crosstalk] Yes, many episodes we could spend on that. Could you add that to the list of the things that are causing our immune system to not really understand how to deal with stuff? Like why is the autoimmune in the last 40 years has skyrocketed?


[58:19] Dr. Ginger Nash: That’s really the main thrust of what Dr. Jaquel taught me right when I graduated from Naturopathic medical school all the way back in 1998. My friend and I flew to New York in this French medical doctor came over and just blew our minds. That was the main thing that he would say. It’s not that vaccines cause autism or vaccines cause diarrhea or whatever. It’s that when they’re administered in such high amounts, they can overwhelm in certain individuals. They can overwhelm the immune system and it causes this perturbation in that natural process of what I just said the body’s ability, the baby’s ability really to recognize self from non-self. That’s a lot of information you’re putting into a little child. About from the outside not just the pathogens but all of the adjuvant ingredient and yadah, yadah. We don’t have to go down that rabbit hole. I’m sure you know a lot about it. I’m sure your listeners know a lot about it. Unfortunately, it’s become this insanely polarizing issue in our society and nobody can really even talk to each other about it. It’s really bad.


[59:36] Ashley James:  I’ve got a great interview that’s very balanced. Because people really want to get polarized. People really want to be for or against them. I have a wonderful interview that feels very balanced. Honors both sides. I’ll make sure I’ll link it in the show notes. He’s a pediatrician who has a very busy practice in Portland. I think he has three or four other pediatricians and a Naturopath. Sorry, MDs and a Naturopath and nurses all working with him. They have tens of thousands of patients and in his many years of working there, he has not had one case of full-blown autism because what he says is he does an altered schedule but 50% of his patients choose not to vaccinate because they are attracted to him because he believes in informed consent. Then he has the other 50% chose to do altered schedule. One dose at a time they come in for one and then they monitor and see how the child is. He has a very different altered schedule for those who choose to vaccinate. He wrote a book on it. I think it’s called Safe Vaccines or something like that. The second they see a regression in the child or any kind of reaction they stop. 100% stop vaccines and that’s it. No, this child is not a candidate for them. That’s how he prevents having vaccine injury in his clinic.

Before he started his clinic many years ago he worked as an early pediatrician. He was in a clinic where when children were talking or walking and then they had their vaccine doses and they stopped talking or walking, it was encouraged to keep going. Keep giving the doses. Keep going. He felt so bad because he felt as though he was part of basically causing vaccine injury in children. He would see it and he would argue with other doctors in the clinic because he was such a new doctor they’re like, “Who are you? Don’t question big pharma. Don’t question anything. Keep going.” He made it his mission to look into this. Anyway his whole thing is if you’re going to do vaccines here’s the safest way to do it based on his incredible met clinical experience. I love what you said that from birth we’re putting in this foreign antigens and foreign stuff in the baby and the immune system hasn’t even had the chance to learn who is self and who is not-self.


[01:02:20] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. The only defense that we have is – Dr. Nayek used to say it forces the immune system to try and create this specific antibodies before it’s really mature enough to do so. That’s why for me personally, like with my son, once he was 7 which is when naturally our bodies are able to form specific antibodies, I felt a lot more comfortable thinking about the vaccine question before he was 7. You really only have the non-specific immune defense which is inflammation and fever. That’s why so many people see their children get this incredible inflammatory conditions and of course, fevers after vaccinations. Not to mention what it’s doing to the microbiome. All of that


[01:03:16] Ashley James: I didn’t meant to go there. [Crosstalk] We had to cover that.


[01:03:24] Dr. Ginger Nash: Totally. It’s just one of these things that I don’t want to post on social media about it because you just can’t question anything without being accused of being this rabid anti-science, anti-vaxxer you know like crazy person. It’s awful that that’s where we’re at.


[01:03:43] Dr. Ginger Nash: That’s the problem. They’re using a strawman and a red herring, these linguistic fallacies to throw us off our game. The problem is we need to sit down and have an educated discussion about everything so that we can make a better future for ourselves and for our children. They want us fighting against each other because then we don’t if we’re fighting amongst ourselves we don’t rise up to make them change things. We’re fighting amongst ourselves and then we’re questioned a being like you said, anti-science or whatever. I’m not either side. I’m pro-kid and pro-health. Let’s just focus on supporting our body’s ability to heal itself. I really want to make sure we cover it. You created a course, now is this course available to purchase?


[01:04:38] Dr. Ginger Nash: No. It was actually just like a little – Dr. Nayek and I just decided we were going to do just a little like, “Hey, let’s just see how this goes in terms of giving women some information.” We have a Facebook group. We share a ton of content for free. It’s just part of building our tribe. Helping empower women, there’s always women that will need more specific support, we’re happy to have more patients from that community. Really at this point, I am just committed to sharing this information as much as possible. We created this little mini-course and we did our first one of vaginal health and we want to do another one about breast health coming up. Just get on our lists and you’ll find out about it. Go to our site band, sign up to any one of our free downloads and you’ll be on our email list. We don’t email more than I would say once a month which all of the marketing people say, “Oh, now you’ve got an email every week”. Don’t worry we’re not going to clog up your inbox with tons of emails. Yes, we did this course about vaginal and vulvar health just because as we said earlier, it’s an area of the body that a lot of women are googling about. They’re not actually talking to their doctors or talking to other women because it’s an area that a lot of women have a lot of shame around which is really sad but it’s the truth. We live in a patriarchal society and it’s interesting that we do refer to the area as our vagina because the vagina as I mentioned earlier is really just a canal that is penetrated in sexual intercourse. If you’re having sex with a man but it’s not –


[01:06:27] Ashley James: It’s not the fun part.


[01:06:28] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes, exactly. Even the way we speak about it and talk about it is informed by our culture but we wanted to do this be a lot of women do have vaginitis and we certainly talked about yeast vaginitis and certain natural supplements can be beneficial and sometimes over the counter stuff is fine. It’s not like you have to see a Naturopath if you have a single yeast infection but if you’re getting yeast infection after yeast infection and you can’t clear them and you’ve got another problems. Vulvodynia developing which is painful sex in the vulvar area which is again another thing that a lot of women struggle with. Then yes, you probably need some more focused support. Then of course, if you’ve had imbalances in the vaginal flora. This can lead to a more prone situation to develop bacterial vaginosis and imbalance in the flora can lead to symptoms. Discharge and discharge is normal for women. Vaginal discharge at different points in the month. You obviously discharge more when you’re ovulating. There’s that cervical mucus. Discharge that’s painful or irritating or discharge that’s itchy or causing itching in the vulvar areas then you may want to get checked out or discharge that smells a little off. All these things can be addressed certainly with natural medicine. I’ve had some funny home remedies that are totally safe. One of the things that I love to recommend to women that they can do especially women if you’ve had any kind of chronic yeast can cause almost even features where the tissues is actually splitting and tremendously painful. One of the best things that I’ve found that’s readily available and inexpensive is Ghee clarified butter.


[01:08:39] Ashley James:  Really?


[01:08:40] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. Ghee is super duper rich in butyric acid that where butter gets its name from. Butyric acid is used as enemas. Ulcerative colitis. Butyric acid has an amazing ability to heal up the mucosa of birth the gut and the vaginal tissue and the vulvar tissues. It’s totally safe and it smells nice. You can actually use Ghee topically. I know some women that have used coconut butter or coconut oil. I just tend to like the medicinal aspect of the Ghee a little bit more. Then there’s some other things I recommend like pomegranate oil is an amazing, safe, and natural constituent of some of the – I actually used a particular brand of products that I love that are formulated by a friend of mine and they’re called Curious Intimacy and she makes beautiful product that are all-natural, all organic. One of them, in particular, has a good amount of pomegranate oil. That’s long been known to have these potent antioxidant effects but it also reduces tumor necrosis factor activities. Tumor necrosis factor is a molecule that will damage again epithelial cells throughout the body, in the lining of the gut and the vaginal tract as well. It’s going to reduce inflammation that causes damage to the epithelial cells. You probably aren’t going to get the same effect from drinking pomegranate juice although pomegranate juice is also very medicinal as well. It feeds actually really beneficial bacteria in the gut. Pomegranates are wonderful foods for a variety of women’s health conditions but the oil, in particular, I really like to use for vaginal health.


[01:10:42] Ashley James: Topically?


[01:10:43] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. Topically. Then one of the other things that I like to do topically is cumin seed oil. If you do get it’s found as an essential oil and I believe if you put just one or two drops into a carrier oil like almond oil or even ghee or pomegranate I’ll if you get some pome oil. That can be really beneficial as an anti-yeast as is oregano. Oregano people take oral, encapsulated oregano oil which is wonderful for infections and yeast. That’s another thing that I’ve recommend to women. If you get essential oil just be sure you don’t put straight oregano oil or cumin seed oil on the vaginal tissues. You absolutely have to have a carrier oil. That’s something that I’ve recommended to women as well. It’s great because a little thing of essential oils lasts a long time you only need one or two drops. It’s not a drug. It’s not a pharmaceutical and it’s going to have any other side effects that some of the medicines that are used to treat yeast-like Diflucan which is a very common prescription from your gynecologist. If you’ve got yeast infection take one or two doses of Diflucan. Puts a little bit of stress in your liver if you don’t need to do that I’m sure there’s lots of listeners who would rather try something natural.


[01:12:23] Ashley James:  Absolutely. Then there’s more studies that are coming out. They’re showing that there’s several antibiotics that inhibit the body from producing collagen and that later on they’re seeing that aortic aneurysm and things like the Achilles tendon erupting.


[01:12:42] Dr. Ginger Nash: Oh, you’ve hit on one of my favorite topics, which is fluoroquinolones. Okay. So here’s a little story about Dr. Ginger. I was training for a half marathon and I was a chronic UTI sufferer. For many years I had [inaudible 01:12:57]. I carried myself into [Inaudible 01:12:59]. I tend it’s just one of my weak spots. I tend to get bladder infections. I’m training for this half marathon it’s during the summer that I training and I get totally dehydrated it was a really hot summer. This was a few years ago. A number of years ago actually eight. Anyway, I get a UTI. I do all of my usual stuff and it’s just not working, I can’t keep up and I can feel it. Sort of, I’ve had 2 kidney infections as well. I feel it traveling into my kidney. I’ve been training for this race for several months and I really don’t want to miss this race because I have a UTI or it’s going to my kidney because you feel really crappy when you’ve got  kidney infections. You get a fever and it’s very serious you need antibiotics immediately. I call my medical doctor friend and I say, “Can you call me in a script for an antibiotic? I have a bladder infection that I’m afraid is traveling to my kidney.” He’s a surgeon. That was a bad idea. He was being nice and doing me a favor but this is a lesson in like go to your regular doctors that take care of you and get prescriptions from people that know your comprehensive health history. He called in a script for Cipro.

I didn’t want to bother him and call him back. He’s a really busy surgeon so I took the Cipro and I ran the half marathon. I can’t believe I didn’t blow up my Achilles but I developed tendonitis in every major tendon in my body. I broke out in hives all over my back. All over my chest. I remember I was caught in traffic in 95. For those of you that live on the east coast 95’s middle name is traffic. I was caught in traffic and I’m looking in the rear view mirror and am like, “My face looks kind of weird and I’m itchy.” and I looked up my neck and I’ve got hives in my neck, hives on my back, hives all over my torso. Of course, my doctor wanted to put me on steroids I was like, “No way. I’m not going on steroids.” I developed this Cipro reaction and I’m sure it was because I stressed my body running the 13 miles and had been taking this medication which you are exactly right, it upsets the collagen. It actually disrupts the DNA and it can cause permanent disability in various connective tissues in the body.

That’s why the aortic aneurysm is coming to light. Those drugs are bad news. They should really be, I would be willing to back they’re going to get pulled from the market. I really strongly recommended if you have UTI if you need some antibiotics get some Bactrim. Get some milder antibiotics, Macrobid, etc. stay away from those fluoroquinolones. They’re really hellacious and some people have had permanent disability from them. I feel like managed over time to get over the tendonitis but I got a tremendous amount of neuromuscular work and bodywork. I was taking a tremendous amount of natural anti-inflammatories and it took me a long time and I still have it’s not my Achilles but on the lower right limb I have a tendon on the outside of my leg I think it’s my peroneal tendon or something like that. Not peroneal because that’s your peroneus muscle but the peroneus muscle which is a postural muscle that had a tendon still bothers me like on a daily basis. Those drugs are super-duper scary. A lot of people have reactions to them. 


[01:16:41] Ashley James:  We have to remember that every drug that’s been taken off the market for killing people was first approved safe. When we come back to that vaccine argument, everyone’s yelling it’s safe. We have to remember that every single drug that’s been taken off the market for killing and naming people was first absolutely 100% stamped safe. We need to have a little bit of paranoia to survive in this world. We need to question everything. Do our research. Be willing to go get a second opinion or a third opinion by different kinds of doctors. Be willing to take in different information and weigh it. Weigh the pros and cons and not just go with the flow. I like saying this in the show if you want to be a statistic, if you want to be the one in three people that dies of cancer or one in three people dies of heart disease, the one in three people that has diabetes or pre-diabetes or is obese. If you want to be a statistic, then do what everyone else is doing. If you don’t want to be statistic and you want to live to your genetic potential of 120 years old disease-free and healthy, then you’ve got to go against the grain. We’ve got to be the oddball that says no to gluten and eats organic and goes get put essential oils in vulva and vagina. Those kinds of things. We’ve got to be a little bit out there but were going to make sure if we’re going against the grain that we’re not going to be statistic. Can you share with us what we can do? Let’s say now we recovered from our yeast infection or from everything’s back to normal after using the Ghee or using all the wonderful things you’ve mentioned or maybe adjusted our diet. Maybe looked at some emotional work because I heard that there’s a connection between stress levels emotional levels when women feel betrayed by their partner for example or when they have an affair and they feel guilty or shameful around it that there is an increase in UTIs and yeast infections. Looking at emotional state and emotional stress like the body’s a whole lifestyle, the body’s a whole. Once we come back and we’re no longer infected. How can we support the vagina and vulvar to have a healthy microbiome?


[01:19:10] Dr. Ginger Nash: Actually great question. First of all, stay away from bleached tampons. Stay away from all the chemical that are in most of your run of the mill feminine hygiene products, investigate using more of cups if those are comfortable for you. You know other types of ways of managing your menstrual blood. If you don’t mind using just pads, use pads. Watch out for sex toys that are made from inferior quality materials. Latex is a common allergy but there’s definitely you get what you pay for in terms of anything you’re putting inside your vagina. Buy the high-end sex toys if you’re going to go there. It’s something to invest in. Those are two things. Then something really simple that gets overlooked too is just staying hydrated because the vaginal tissue is a sensitive ecosystem. When you get dehydrated there’s a really strong correlation for dryness and when you get dry, you tend to get more tissue damage and keeping your hormone’s balanced overall is really – our vaginas and our vulvas are obviously connected to our bodies. An overall approach to your hormone health is definitely going to help the vaginal tissue, help the vulvar tissues. Eating a diet that’s anti-inflammatory for you. Some of that I mentioned earlier is pretty individualized but there’s definitely some broad strokes that we’ve touched upon and you touched upon Ashely, which is great. Hydrogenated fats and refined sugars and refined flours are pretty much bad for everybody. High fructose corn syrup is not going to make your body a happy place. No matter who you are, what your blood type is, what your metabolic type is, no matter what. Simple things like diet and hydration also just be careful what you put on your body including your vaginal tissue and your vulvar area. I do tend to use a lot of products and certainly recommend to many women not to use soaps. There’s been a lot about the purel and anti-bacterial hand sanitizers. Same thing applies to anything vaginally. You really don’t want to try and kill the good bacteria there. Staying away from harsh chemicals and perfumes and synthetics on that tissue would be definitely an important thing. Also the classic, peeing after sex if you need to wash after sex. Some women I know definitely like to do a little rinse. The products that I mentioned earlier made by my friend Elizabeth Moriarty, Curious intimacy. They have a wonderful After Play products which you can use which is oils as well with some essential oils with some beautiful natural ingredients, that’s definite a way to be proactive and preventive in terms of getting yeast infections. One of the oils, the After Play has the black cumin seed in it. There’s a number of things to do just to keep things healthy and balanced and lot of that is just some of your basic Naturopathic recommendations. Definitely tampons do not use bleached tampons at all.


[01:22:57] Ashley James:  What about the organic they’re like, they’re white but they say they’re organic. Is that okay or they’re also bleached?


[01:23:01] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. They should say whether they’re bleached I think there are some tampons that are made from organic cotton but they’re still bleached. I wouldn’t like that. Bleach is definitely going to mess up your microbiome and cause pain for some women.


[01:23:22] Ashley James:  What about douching with yogurt? That’s kind of a home remedy I learned from my mom. I haven’t need to do it since I was a teenager I think I did it once because my mom was like, “This is what we do.” Is that helpful?


[01:23:37] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. I mean I wouldn’t call it douching per se because I think of douching as like washing but you could certainly do a yogurt infusion. I’ve actually along with the Ghee there something else I recommend to women that I didn’t mention already for yeast. The Ghee is more soothing and healing up the irritated the mucosal membranes. For yeast, you could actually nick a little clove of garlic and insert that too. You definitely want to be aware that it’s going to burn for a little bit. I wouldn’t necessarily do it many days in a row. I’m a little cautious about saying this in a public forum because I certainly don’t want anybody to hurt themselves but for most women that can be incredibly soothing and anti-infective as well.


[01:24:32] Ashley James:  I’ve totally done the garlic thing. You will smell like garlic. You’re going to walk around being like, “I’m smelling Italian food all the time.” This was back when I was a teenager but it worked.


[01:24:42] Dr. Ginger Nash: You should work up with the oregano essential oil and the garlic. It’ll be like a food fest.


[01:24:43] Ashley James: Right. Mix it with the oregano that’s so funny, yes. Absolutely. It has been such a pleasure having you on the show today. Two more quick things. One, colloidal silver for the vagina, vagina right? The canal. Would you say that that is a good thing to use if we’re looking to combat an overgrowth?


[01:25:08] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes. I’ve never used colloidal silver vaginally. I’ve used it in the sinuses and in net pots and washes. I’ve used colloidal silver spray and I’ve used it orally for viruses and whatnot. I tend to think of the silver as anti-viral so it wouldn’t be the first thing I would think of vaginally but I’m sure it could be beneficial if that’s the main issue. I just tend to think of it more as an anti-viral than an anti-bacterial or anti-yeast.


[01:25:42] Ashley James:  It’s less likely we have a viral infection down there


[01:25:46] Dr. Ginger Nash: Yes, it’s less likely. Usually, if it’s a viral thing, it’s a herpes virus and it’s going to be transmitted through the nerve tissue. That’s why viral infections are so painful because it’s affecting the nerves. Doing something topically in the vaginal canal isn’t going to be as effective as doing some antivirals that would hit the nerve tissue.


[01:26:09] Ashley James:  Yes. Man, I can’t wait to have you back on the show. Just keep coming back. You’ve got so much to share.


[01:26:13] Dr. Ginger Nash: Aww, thanks, Ashley.


[01:26:14] Ashley James: This is so much fun. Now I’m going to make sure all the links to everything that Dr. Ginger Nash does is in the show notes of today’s podcast at and and everything else. Your Facebook group. We’ll put all the information in the show notes today. To wrap up today’s interview, I’d love for you to share some homework. Give us some homework. What do you want us to do? Get us to go out there and do something for our health.


[01:26:41] Dr. Ginger Nash: I think that what I mentioned earlier about that five cups of vegetables a day. If you make one change in your diet. Just start trying to eat five cups of vegetables a day. Like I said earlier, fill you up it’s going to automatically decrease the amount of processed foods you’re going to want to eat because those vegetables are not calorically dense. They’re tremendously beneficial for all the fiber content, all the antioxidant content, all the nutrients, the micro-minerals. I particularly love to recommended seaweed salad to people because so many people are mineral deficient. I know you live in Seattle, you have all the good sushi restaurants around you. That’s a really wonderful source of micro-minerals. That would be a good way to go. Get eating your veggies.


[01:27:34] Ashley James: I love it. Get your veggies in. I start my day with one pound of steamed vegetables because it’s the easiest thing to do. I can throw either fresh or frozen I could just throw a pound that’s about two cups and I throw that in the steamer. Well, I have like this bamboo thing at the Asian market we got this really cool bamboo steamer and you just put it on top of a wok or a big pot. I steam it while I’m getting the family ready to go in the morning. I eat my 1 pound of steamed vegetables and if I start my day that way, I am so satiated and so balanced. When I wait until the end of the day to get my vegetables in it’s just like, oh whatever. I’m like, “Why make an excuse?” So I get my vegetables in as soon as I can. One pound of vegetables and then I get another pound either for lunch or dinner or I split it up. I just found to just steam it and then I could throw stuff on it. I could throw hot sauce on it or some coconut aminos or some Bragg’s amino liquid or nutritional yeast. Whatever or cayenne or smoked paprika and it might be the same. I could have broccoli for entire week if I wanted to if I got lazy but it always tastes different because I put different stuff on it. I do rotate my vegetables and man that has been a life-changer.


[01:28:54] Dr. Ginger Nash: That’s so great. That’s such a good tip. Thank you for teaching me that because I tell people that all the time about exercise if you exercise in the morning you’re much more likely to stick to an exercise regimen and it’s true for vegetables too. I can totally see. We have such a perturbed crazy understanding of what breakfast is in this country. Eat vegetables for breakfast. The five cups of vegetables but try to get at least two cups or a cup there least for breakfast.


[01:29:22] Ashley James:  Get two cups. Oh, come on. One cup is like a snack. One cup I could like – I eat one cup like popcorn. If I have any leftover vegetables because I try to not eat after dinner because it’s I don’t need to fill up on calories to go to bed. It’s not like I’m running a marathon in my sleep but if I feel like a little puckish or carve something I will eat steamed vegetables after dinner as a snack and it’s like, “Yes. You know what? If you’re hungry you’re hungry for vegetables. If you’re hungry and you say no to vegetables then you’re not really hungry.” I have to keep facing that. More and more vegetables. Five cups, that’s our homework. We’re going to go do it.


[01:30:05] Dr. Ginger Nash: Homework, assignment. Next time I’m on I’m going to check in on everybody. Make sure you report back to Ashley that you’re doing this.


[01:30:13] Ashley James:  Awesome. Thank you so much, Dr. Ginger Nash. It was such a pleasure having you on the show today. Can’t wait to have you back.


[01:30:20] Dr. Ginger Nash: Thanks so much, Ashley. Bye.



Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition and how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity? Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business, support people in their success? Do you love helping people? You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrated Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health-coaching sort of vacation program and it really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over a hundred dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition but from the standpoint on how we can help people to shift their life, to shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health. I definitely recommend you check them out. You can google Institute for Integrated Nutrition or IIN, or give them a call or you can go to and you can receive a free module of their training. So check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in. Be sure to mention my name, Ashley James and the Learn True Health podcast because I made a deal with them that they would give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program. I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information. We need more health coaches. In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctor’s offices, you can work in hospitals. You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help with your local schools shift their programs to help children be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them and their success and their health goals. There’s so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach. So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrated Nutrition. Mention my name. Get the best deal. Give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month, so you’re going to want to call them now and check it out. If you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.

Are you looking to optimize your health? Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price? For high-quality supplements and to talk to someone about what supplements are best for you, go to and one of our fantastic true health coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are highest quality and the best price. That’s Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program.


Get Connected With Dr. Ginger Nash!



Recommended Readings:

Our Bodies, Ourselves – Judy Norsigian

Wild Feminine – Tami Lynn Kent

Pussy: A Reclamation – Regina Thomashauer

Oct 2, 2019

The Three Products/Companies Mentioned In Today's Interview and How To Get The Special Listener Discounts:
1) Sunlighten Sauna - Give them a call and mention Learn True Health with Ashley James. They offer financing and have several light therapy systems, including a small handheld device and a portable sauna!

Here is the link to the Sunlighten Handheld Device:

2) The Magnesium Soak! Visit and use coupon code LTH for our listener discount.
3) Energy Bits and Recovery Bits Algae! Visit and use coupon code LTH to get 20% off! Buy the Recovery Bits for the detoxifying chlorella!
Dr. Joel Kahn:
Author 5 books all in the shop at my website


Sauna Therapy and Heart Health with Dr. Joel Kahn


  • Benefits of sauna therapy
  • Benefits of Magnesium soak
  • Benefits of ENERGYbits and RECOVERYbits
  • Plant-based vegan diet is good for heart health
  • Diet and fitness of mind and body are important
  • The science of light therapy for healing
  • Benefits of Infrared sauna
  • Waon therapy of Japan
  • Importance of light for our health
  • Benefits of near infrared sauna
  • Benefits of red light
  • Photobiomodulation
  • Sunlighten lumiNIR
  • Saunas and weight loss
  • Kahn’s three tips: meditation, organic chlorella, HIIT workout
  • Congenital heart conditions in children and adults
  • People should be concerned about their arteries
  • ARVC heart condition
  • Organ meats and processed fat to heal autoimmune diseases
  • Books and doctors that Dr. Kahn follows
  • Kahn’s homework for listeners


In this episode Dr. Joel Khan will share with us his three tips to a good cardiovascular health, the importance of light to our health. Ashley and Dr. Khan will also discuss the science of light therapy for healing and how important diet and fitness for our body is.

[0:00] Intro: Hello, true health seeker.

Welcome to another exciting episode of Learn True Health podcast. You’re going to love today’s interview with cardiologist, Dr. Joel Khan. He’s a very unique cardiologist. He’s been a plant-based vegan for over 42 years. And he has this unique perspective on the body. He believes the body has an amazing ability to heal itself. And we just need to support it with the right diet, nutrients, lifestyle. And that we can support the body’s ability to heal and prevent disease. And isn’t that wonderful? Don’t you want a doctor that believes that you can be healthy?

He shares a lot of great information today. We talked a lot about using heat therapy and the different spectrums of light to help the body heal. And he says so much in such a short period of time. There’s so many details. He opened up so many rabbit holes that I know listeners are going to think to themselves, “Man, I need to get a pen. I got to write that down.”

And I want to let you know that we actually transcribe our interviews. We’ve been doing that for the last few months. We hired two wonderful transcriptionists. And we have been transcribing all of the interviews. So a big shout out, thank you to the transcriptionists, who helped us to transcribe. Because our listeners really love going to And then you can click on the episode. And I know that everyone’s been loving being able to have access to all the transcripts. So that when a guest shares so much wonderful information, like telling us about what books we should read, and what supplements we should try, or what lifestyle habits, tips and tricks we should try, we want all the details. And instead of having to listen to the episode two or three times, you can go the transcript and find exactly what the doctor said, which is really exciting. So that is my gift to you, the listener, so that you can make sure that you take all this information and help to transform your life and the health of your whole family and everyone you love. So make sure that you take advantage of our transcripts by going to www.learntruehealth. com.

Now, in this episode we mention three things. So I want to make sure that I cover it in the intro. A lot of the discussion is about sauna therapy, specifically using sunlight. And Sunlighten is the only company I have found and I have looked that is ultra low EMF that is non-toxic. And it uses the full spectrum near, mid, and far infrared. So they’re absolutely wonderful. I highly recommend calling Sunlighten and in talking to them about their different systems. They have what’s called the Solo System, which is portable. So you don’t need – if you don’t have a lot of space and you can just tuck it away under the bed or tuck it away in the closet when you’re not using it. That’s a really great solution for those who don’t want the bigger sauna. Which I have the big one, the wooden one, and I love it. Basically, two people can fit in it. It’s kind of like having a TARDIS, for those who know Doctor Who. It does not look very big but two people can fit in it which is really cool. And it has the full spectrum of near, mid, and far infrared. And we’ll get a little bit into that in the show today. The benefits of those different spectrums. 

If you want to learn more specifically about Sunlighten, I did two interviews. One with the cofounder and one with their manager, Alicia. So Connie Zack being the founder. You can go to and you can search in the search bar for Sunlighten or for sauna and find those episodes. And enjoy learning more about why I specifically love Sunlighten as a company when it comes to doing sauna therapy versus all the other companies out there. I’m really sold. I’ve really enjoyed my sauna. And I’ve gotten a lot of great health benefits. It’s helped me with my detox tremendously. It’s helped me with my liver. I had liver problems and it really helped me with that, It helped me with my weight loss. So I feel it is high quality and very effective. So that’s Sunlighten. Give them a call. They give our listeners a great deal. They give us free shipping. And they also throw in something else that’s really cool. And the special kind of keeps changing just depending on what’s going on in the office there. But they always give the listeners a really great discount or really great special. So make sure that you mention Learn True Health with Ashley James so that you get our listener special.

Now, we mentioned two other things. One is the magnesium soak. You have heard me rave about it over and over again. And I love soaking in magnesium while in my sauna. You only need a few cups of water in, like, a foot basin. And it is so wonderful. It opens up all the circulation. It really aids in the detoxification and feeding your liver all those wonderful nutrients it needs to help you with detoxification. So it’s a great one-two punch.

And then the third thing, are the ENERGYbits. Actually, specifically, the RECOVERYbits, which is chlorella. Chlorella is an algae that chelates heavy metals. And so it’s wonderful to eat before you get in the sauna because it aids in binding to the heavy metals and releasing them from our body. It also helps with melatonin production so that it actually aids in deeper sleep. And I’ve done about five interviews I think on the ENERGYbits. So you can type algae into the search function in to be able to listen to those episodes where we talk about spirulina and chlorella and all their health benefits. And it’s just wonderful. You can go to and use coupon code LTH to get 20% off. And make sure that you grab a bag of the ENERGYbits for your daytime energy. They’re wonderful. They’re spirulina. They actually taste really good compared to all the other spirulinas out there. They don’t have any of the lead or heavy metals that other companies have been known to have. Because ENERGYbits does very rigorous testing. And they have a pure water source when they grow their algae. So lots of great information that you can learn by going to and typing in algae and listening to those episodes. But just try it and see how you feel. Buy a bag of Energybits, buy a bag of RECOVERYbits. And RECOVERYbits is for the detoxification. ENERGYbits is for energy. And they don’t have any caffeine. It’s just all algae. But it delivers to the body all the nutrients that it needs to make energy and support hormone health. And I could go on and on. So you can check out those interviews.

But those are the three things that we had mentioned in the episode. And I want to let you know that all three of those things you can get a listener discount for. So to get the magnesium soak, you go to and type in the coupon code LTH at checkout. ENERGYbits is and type in the coupon code LTH at checkout. And then for your listener discount for Sunlighten, call them up, talk to one of their wonderful salespeople, and mention Learn True Health with Ashley James for the listener discount. And if you have any questions about any of these because I use them all the time and my whole family actually. We soak in magnesium. We eat the ENERGYbits and the RECOVERYbits. And we sweat in our sauna – in our Sunlighten Sauna. And so if you guys have any questions for me and my experience, please email me, I’d love to hear from you.

Excellent. Enjoy today’s episode and have yourself a wonderful rest of your day.



[8:04] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn true health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is Episode 383.

I am so excited for today’s interview. We have with us Dr. Joel Kahn. He’s an amazing cardiologist. But even more than cardiology. Because I’ve dived into your interviews and some videos, you’re kind of going up against Joe Rogan in a very polite interview. I was waiting for the gloves to come off. It’s very interesting to be a plant-based cardiologist and help people to reverse disease naturally with natural medicine, with food because we can heal the body with food. And that you are surprisingly an expert in so many of these fields. Some of my listeners – so I told them I was interviewing you – said, “I love him. I love his podcasts.” And so I started listening to your podcasts. And it’s amazing just how much you read and how much you share with the listener. So I definitely recommend listeners check out Dr. Joel Kahn’s podcasts. It’s such a pleasure to have you here today.



[9:02] Dr. Joel Kahn: Well, thank you. It’s really a nice and sincere. A little different than the standard credential introduction. And that’s pretty cool. Yeah, I call it a p-cast. A little bit different than yours. I would never have stayed doing podcasts for two-and-a-half years if I was taking long periods to interview people. So I just talk for 20 minutes. I teach on some subject. I call it a p-cast. It’s like a P in the pod, as you know from listening. But anyways, enough about that.

But I do. At age 60, I have this insane hunger to learn and learn what isn’t whoo as opposed to science. And that can be really tough sometime. If we can acknowledge that there’s whoo whoo advice out there all over the place.



[9:45] Ashley James: I like that you brought up your age because if listeners go and check out and saw your videos, they’re going to look at a young man who looks about 40, who is incredibly handsome, has tons of energy, and looks like he could win a boxing match against anyone. Like, you just look so good. And then when you said you’re 60, I’m like, “I really don’t believe it.” So that’s the power of the whole food plant-based diet is we actually become more energetic and look younger and have less disease.



[10:16] Dr. Joel Kahn: Number one, you know, you’re just smothering me with kindness. I just told you before we went on, I’m going to be out in Seattle for a high level medical conference in a few weeks. Now we’re going to have to find a wonderful plant restaurant and go celebrate with your husband and all that. But I actually adopted a plant diet at age 18. It wasn’t a master plan. It was in the time that we had Veggie Grill and Beyond Meat and all the movement that’s going on now, good and bad. It was a college reaction to horrible food and a good salad bar. But that was the last burger chicken piece of turkey I ate was 1977. So you know, every inch of augury and other crucial parts of my body have been bathe in broccoli and cauliflower and rubella for a very long time. And I’m grateful that that was kind of a cork and kind of a twist of fate that in a cardiology career couldn’t have been a better plan if I have had the insight. But it was an insight. It was just a quick little college dorm survival play that I just never went back.



[11:20] Ashley James: And a friend in college who went raw vegan because he didn’t have a fridge. So he just bought a bunch of fruit, like apples and basically lived on it. And it turned out he became – it made him incredibly healthy. That was like, “Whoa. That’s a really interesting survival mechanism.” At what point in your career as a cardiologist did you realize that how you’re eating was the optimal diet for heart health?



[11:44] Dr. Joel Kahn: Yeah, it didn’t take long. I actually got into a quick little program at the University of Michigan [inaudible 00:11:49]. I actually was accepted to med school at 17 or 18. And began some medical courses that early. And I was eating plants. I didn’t talk much about it because there wasn’t really a platform. And I didn’t know it was a therapy. If I had dug a little deeper, but I had no Sherpa to guide me, I could have found Nathan Pritikin in the 60s and 70s. I could have found even a couple older pioneers that I now know and study and respect. But really, I started practicing cardiology. I was like this animal in the cath lab. You’re having a heart attack, you’re having chest pain, I have your balloon, I have your aggressive therapy seven days a week.

And three weeks after that, Dr. Dean Ornish, one of the most eminent and deserving of appreciation lifestyle medicine doctors, published a paper. And I mean, I’m three weeks. And this guy that the answer to heart disease is, you know, procedures and balloons. And he puts out data that says you can actually halt and reverse heart disease with a lifestyle that was centered on whole food plant-based.  And added two things I love, fitness and mind body, and yoga, socialization. And I said, “Wow.”

So I’ve literally taught thousands of patients every month of my career since I begun. And it’s all serendipity. I’m just very fortunate. And I am proud to say I kind of grew up in this movement. But it wasn’t exactly proofed inside. I didn’t have a psychic tell me to do this things. It just played out well. I could have, you know, read a paper about bacon and I would have been just messed up for the rest of my career. But I invested well in the plant-based movement in terms of energy and personal health.



[13:32] Ashley James: Well, and it shows. You’re now – is it 42 or 43 years that you’ve now been vegan? And I mean, I am blown away. But there’s the evidence for you. If we eat a whole food plant-based diet, the way down the road we’re going to look younger and feel younger. And there’s so much science now showing that it prevents and reverses disease. So you love diving into all these different topics. And we have some questions from the listeners that we’ll get to in a little bit.

But I wanted to dive into this topic of saunas and infrared and red light. Because Sunlighten Sauna – actually Alicia at Sunlighten is the one that hooked us up for this interview. And she said that you are an amazing expert at understanding the science. And I’ve been raving about my experience with my Sunlighten. It has really helped me in my health journey. And also using light therapy like red light therapy. But I don’t understand the science. And so I’d love for you to teach us a bit about it. What made you want to dive into learning about sauna therapy and using these kind of light therapies for healing?




[14:36] Dr. Joel Kahn: I took my nutritional knowledge and had my standard cardiology career and did that for a long time. Always offering these patients more than just prescriptions. But about ten years ago, I found a program at a university that you could call Integrative Cardiology. Like some people go back and get an MBA in the weekends at Harvard or whatever. I found the equivalent but it was in my field. But the integrated science based use of food and supplements and stress. And one of the topics was a presentation – several hours – on the science. And I stress, everything I do as odd as it is sometimes, is stimulated when I find that there’s actually science. It’s credible in hopefully multiple studies.

So about 30 plus years ago, and I can’t tell you who was the first that had the spark, but in Japan they started applying infrared saunas. So you’ve got your steam sauna at 180 degrees. A lot of health clubs. Some people have that adapter in their shower and they can make it all steamy. You’ve got kind of the dry Tucson, Arizona sauna with a little box in the corner. Some people have that at home.

And then infrared, it’s a little different. It looks like the wood box of an Arizona sauna. But in the walls are very special panels, infrared emitting panels. We have our – it doesn’t need to be real science-y. I mean, everybody’s sitting in a room right now that probably has a light bulb that’s emitting a spectrum of light. Some are purple, some are greens, some are red, some are blue, yellow wavelengths that make it look white in that combination. But it turns out that there is a slice of light energy called infrared. And we can’t see it. It’s not a visible light.

And these researchers in Japan built infrared saunas. Boxes that have these panels and emit infrared energy. And they would take various – first they did animal studies, which is ultra cool. And the animal study showed a beneficial response to blood vessel function, muscle function, the real basic chemistry. It turns out, we actually have receptors in ourselves. You know, you think we really are more like plants and we think we are like plants. There actually is a very cool science that actually says we’re not so different than the birch tree and the oak tree you might be seeing out a window, perhaps. But anyways, we have receptors in these basic models. And then they started studying sick heart patients in Japan. And these were in academic centers and they published data. You have high blood pressure, you use an infrared sauna. There’s a Japanese word called waon, W-A-O-N. It means healing warmth. And most of the literature anybody could put in their browser, waon, W-A-O-N, therapy and start reading about it. Fifteen minutes in an infrared sauna, usually about 130 hundred or 140 degrees if you give it time to heat up. Then these people would be wrapped up in towels, drink some water, and rest. Because they were not really healthy athletes. They were people with blood pressure and heart damage and heart attacks.

And over the course of 10 or 15 years, they showed that blood pressure responded; congestive heart failure, a really serious diagnosis, responded; artery measures showed improvement. They actually have done some modest sized randomized studies. Sick people got infrared saunas, sick people just got standard therapy, there was an improvement in survival and hospitalization. And in Japan, infrared sauna is used as a first line therapy right there with medication or surgery or whatever else you need. But God knows, until those few hours of lectures, I had never heard in any university -and I’m a professor at a university in Detroit – about any of this. And it’s easy. Now, read the literature, read the literature. It was real. And it’s been reproduced.

So most of us, thank goodness don’t have bad arteries, don’t have congestive heart failure. Most of us aren’t mice in laboratories. But you know, for many ways of supporting our health, I tell my patients, there’s two therapies you don’t know about probably. One a little pricier and one a little less pricey. They both involve using light to accentuate our health and accelerate our energy production and benefit our weight and benefit our skin and benefit our blood pressure. And the higher end one is to research and get a really good infrared sauna like Sunlighten makes. I have one in my bedroom. And their brand called full spectrum. And this is science again. But it’s far infrared, near infrared, and mid infrared in each of those wavelengths. When you turn it on, it’s hot, you can’t see the light waves but they’re there. Each of them has a different effect.

But the near infrared, which is abbreviated in the literature NIR, is really cool because that stuff really works on our muscles. And athletes, if any athletes are listening, many, many professional athletic teams will have various kinds of light therapy and infrared sauna. Because before an athletic event like a football game or after, before basketball or after, recovery pain or they call it delayed onset muscle soreness or DOMs can all be treated. And everything I just said has science and publications. It’s not again to whoo but just not very well known. And I got excited. So many, many of my patients do enjoy it. There may be some other benefits. So you know, we all know it’s the Debbie Downer talk. City water, air, plastics that wrap our burger, whether it’s a Beyond Meat burger or a Black Bean Burger, wherever you’re buying, all these chemicals, these endocrine disrupting chemicals are affecting our fertility and our thyroid and our weight. And one way to get them out – because it’s really hard to keep from having any of them, of course, we want to try and create a lifestyle where we don’t have plastics everywhere and exposure. Air fresheners and perfumes that are all affecting our endocrine system. Infrared sauna does cause you to detoxify and eliminate these better than just gym sweating.

You can imagine somebody did a study, “I’m going to run around a gym and collect sweat droplets from people at an elliptical. And I’m going to go to an infrared sauna room and collect sweat droplets from somebody just sitting still.” And there’s more toxins concentrated in the sweat from an infrared sauna than there are from exercising. And of course both are good. And there are even some gyms now that have put infrared panels in the walls of the gym so you get double whammy. But yeah, very cool stuff for the science of waon therapy and infrared sauna.



[21:24] Ashley James: You mentioned that we have receptors on our cells, is that to receive light? To receive infrared? Can you tell us a bit more about that.



[21:33] Dr. Joel Kah: Yeah. So just switching gears a little. Infrared is there but you can’t see it. Then there’s red light. Red lights, easy. I mean, it looks like the matrix. It’s bright. I mean, it’s the one with the one band of the full spectrum. And a prominent researcher at Harvard by the name of Michael Hamblin, H-A-M-B-L-I-N, PhD or MD – I think a PhD – has spent 30 years and many, many publications and textbooks that costs $700. The official name is Photobiomodulation, photolight bio or biology, and we can change our biology through light. But it’s often called the low level laser or red light therapy. But it turns out every one of us have, I think it’s fair to say, billions and billions of mitochondria in our muscles, heart muscles and skeletal muscles, particularly. They’re making all that energy. If anybody’s had the biology background, the ATP energy that keeps our heart strong and our muscles strong, and the rest.

And there is a receptor in the system that makes energy. It’s an enzyme called cytochrome c oxidase. And that receptor will respond to red light. And when it is exposed to red light, it will accelerate this process of making energy. It also creates more nitric oxide. If you ask an athlete who knew biology or a trainer, if you created more nitric oxide that was free to circulate and help an athlete’s blood vessels and you created more efficiency in making ATP in their muscles, do you think it would benefit an athlete either performance or recovery? And they think, “I got it. I’d pay a fortune for such.” It turns out red light does that. Proven. The science is known. And it’s a little different. When you get an infrared sauna, you’re getting near infrared energy. And it’s a wonderful thing and it will activate this receptor. But you also might want to explore the field of Photobiomodulation using red light.

So Sunlighten has this wonderful little handheld device called lumiNIR. There’s some things that red light does that go beyond near infrared and the combination is the powerhouse. I literally use a red light panel in my near infrared sauna and I get both. Because I wouldn’t be getting red light in my sauna alone.

But for all the listeners who want to keep their skin youthful, there’s an FDA approved. This is science backed by years of analysis. That it may promote collagen production, relieve aging spots, wrinkles in the skin. It’s the vanity part. But who doesn’t. You know, eating healthy is clearly beauty inside out is clearly real and the key. But I’m not against using safe therapies that keep us looking a little more youthful. So in the past 12 months, I’ve added red light therapy for 12 or 15 minutes a day. And it’s not tanning and you’re not going to burn yourself. And just another add on to health. It’s fascinating, you know, fascinating.



[24:38] Ashley James: Yeah. I have one of Sunlighten’s lumiNIRs. It’s a handheld device and they have those different attachments. You can do the blue light or the red light and depending on whether you want to support like a joint pain or you want collagen production. It’s very interesting. And I know Sunlighten and gives our listeners a discount. I’m not sure what it is but I’ll find out for the listeners. So bios photo modulation, you mentioned that it helps the body – helps the mitochondria to produce more ATP and they’ve been able to prove this. Or is it that it helps the production of nitric oxide.



[25:12] Dr. Joel Kahn: It actually does both. So if you really want to go deep – here we go. It’s called uncaging nitric oxide on this enzyme. Here, you got a muscle cell in your pectoral muscles because you like to do bench presses. In that muscle, there are thousands of mitochondria. And in those mitochondria, there’s a pathway to make ATP energy so you can lift those weights. The cytochrome c oxidase, for reasons I don’t understand, it actually takes and traps nitric oxide. And the nitric oxide doesn’t do what it’s supposed to do, which is keep your arteries youthful and prevent plaque. And it kind of clogs up the electron transport chain. So when you’re exposed to red light and infrared light, the nitric oxide gets bumped off and it goes and circulates and it does what it’s supposed to do. Suddenly this little fly in the ointment of making ATP is removed. So you actually get both benefits, which is crazy. I mean, it’s so crazy to think that red light and infrared light can do something that is – you know, I’m still blown away how advanced the science is. We’re talking thousands of research articles and basic science and human science. So there’s even reports – and this is science where I wouldn’t say it.

You know, how many people deal with Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, an autoimmune disease of the thyroid. There are small series that exposing your neck using a red light device like the lumiNIR converts your immune system. It’s called macrophage 1 or macrophage 2. But they stop attacking your own thyroid. And there are reports up substantial 30 or 40% of people no longer needing thyroid replacement after a while. Everybody needs to work with their healthcare team. Of course, their healthcare team won’t have ever heard of this. But if you do look online, Photobiomodulation Hashimoto’s, you can read about it. It’s real science.



[27:07] Ashley James: Oh, that is fascinating. Do you think it has something to do with the fact that it decreases inflammation?



[27:12] Dr. Joel Kah: It decreases inflammation by changing the activity of kind of white blood cell or kind of inflammatory. So I’ll call them back macrophage. Exactly.



[27:22] Ashley James: Because I know that in the 3-in-1 Sunlighten – not the handheld but the big Sunlighten Sauna that has the near, mid, and far infrared – that is incredibly anti-inflammatory to be in. That people notice decreases in pain and inflammation and joint pain. And then I’ve been told the lumiNIR – because I don’t have joint pain – but I’ve been told the lumiNIR has been really helpful for people with joint pain even when it’s like rheumatoid arthritis where there’s an autoimmune component. And you’ve seen the science to back this up.



[27:51] Dr. Joel Kahn: It probably is multiple pathways that lead people with fibromyalgia and more defined autoimmune conditions, like you mentioned, to respond to full spectrum infrared sauna. Because it probably is detoxification. Some will lose weight, which may help. And then finally, this nitric oxide, ATP energy, something like fibromyalgia, some people believe strongly is a mitochondrial energy deficit problem. So if you can safely non-invasively and frankly rather cost effectively deal with it, then you might as well just power up and get rid of the pain.



[28:34] Ashley James: Right. I love it. And you mentioned that saunas help with weight loss. I’ve used the sauna to help with detoxification because I was having problems with weight loss when it came to detoxification. My liver would get all really pissed off. I switched to a plant-based diet and everything’s working a lot better now that I’m doing that and doing the sauna. What can you share with us about, from the standpoint of heart health, cardiovascular health, and how saunas help with that, how does the sauna therapy, this heat therapy, help us with detoxification and weight loss?



[29:10] Dr. Joel Kahn: Yes. Well, it’s actually a very efficient way. It’s interesting. There’s some data that cold therapy is a very efficient way to accelerate your weight loss. So I have adopted this crazy habit I hate that after workout, I jump in the shower. And at least part of it, I douse myself and cold water. It does wake you up like no other. I hate everything about it. Because there’s nothing more comforting than a hot shower but a cold shower.

And on the flip side, the efficiency of burning calories in an infrared sauna is as high as many ellipticals and treadmills. And it might be roughly 500, 600, 700 calories an hour. So you know, it doesn’t replace – number one, if you’re a good athlete and you can really get good workouts, please do it. There’s all kinds of cardiovascular benefits. Some people have reasons that they can’t really get that high level workout. And many people do both. They’ll get the – you know, they CrossFit or the HIIT or yoga or whatever it is and then they’ll add in some saunas on top of it. So it can be very helpful with the calories in, calories out.

The calorie out part of weight loss, I had, unfortunately, in a medical conference, the misfortune of breaking a foot on an escalator two months ago. So I’ve had to give up – it’s recovering very well. But I’ve had to give up the treadmill, elliptical, Concept 2 rower, and all the things I like to do yoga. So I’m spending more time in an infrared sauna and been able to maintain my weight. I mean, a lot of upper body work and such. I shifted. But just a personal example, you know, add that in. And it may be too.

There’s this theory – this gets a little whoo – we really are exposed to a lot of garbage, pesticides, herbicides, these endocrine disrupting chemicals. And a lot of them do get – they’re fat soluble chemicals, particularly PCBs and DDT. And these things are unfortunately highly concentrated in fish. So fish eaters are much more exposed to these things. But you may need to get rid and reduce your burden on some of these chemicals to really lose weight. Because there’s like this battle, if I keep my fat, I dilute these chemicals and they’re less toxic to my physiology. And if I lose weight, and they’re all released in the bloodstream, I may feel bad. Kind of like the Keto flu or the kind of ill feeling that people get the first couple days of some kind of detox. So sweating them out as a real efficient way in a sauna to reduce your burden and accelerate weight loss. Now, everything I just said is a little blurry in terms of, “Do we absolutely know?” But that is a strong theory that people feel reflects life in 2019 and 2020.



[31:57] Ashley James: And it’s been my experience too. I kept hitting a wall. Every time I lose a few pounds, I get really over toxic and my liver would inflame. I went for ultrasounds and blood work and it was sure enough, my liver was really pissed. And my Naturopath didn’t know what was going on. He was trying to throw some supplements at me to support the liver. But I had to basically stop weight loss and then wait for it to calm down then start again. I was just sick of it. And so finally my niche process was like, “You really should get a sauna.” And that’s why I dived into studying all the different types of saunas. And I came across Sunlighten Sauna and discovered that that was my favorite out of all the other companies. Really low EMF, nontoxic. And then when I started using it, it was like a light bulb went off inside me. It was the total difference. I feel happier when I use it. I get better sleep. I don’t have my inflamed liver anymore. The weight loss has been consistent. So I’ve become this raving fan about Sunlighten. But again, I didn’t understand the deep science behind it. And so I love that you’re saying that the receptors in our body, the cells have receptors for light. And I’ve heard from other people that light is like a nutrient. And we are starving our body because of modern day society. We’re actually starving from the full spectrum that we need. So it’s like we’re nutrient deficient and the nutrient is light.



[33:23] Dr. Joel Kahn: So that that circles back to something I said a while about how similar we are to plants, which is a novel idea. But of course plants can take light and use them to stimulate the production of energy. It powers them. They have chlorophyll. There is a report in 2014 and I wrote a little blog about it back then. It was so interesting, it made some headlines. It wasn’t a human study but it was a mammal study. And we do not think that we can be out in the sun and create energy out of that process. We’re not plants. But that did occur in mammalian cells. And there may be a whole spectrum of we know light helps you make vitamin D, which is an important health supporting. Some people say hormone and vitamin. There is some data you can make more nitric oxide by being in the sun. And people that live in lower portions in the United States have lower blood pressure than people who live in northern portions. And it all correlates how many hours a day there’s sunshine. But whether we actually can energize and feel better, of course, intuition says, take a vacation in the sun. And it feels great. And it may be partly that we have still pathways that aren’t completely understood in these cytochrome C oxidase pathways may indeed be part of it. So it’s very cool.

And you know, as I say one of the easiest health blaze is to get more light or get more red light with dedicated products. These used to be extremely expensive. You’d have to spend $10,000 to 30,000 to go to a health spa or a dermatology office. But it’s much different now for way, way under $1,000. You got a great system.



[35:05] Ashley James: Yeah. I really like the lumiNIR and all that you can do with it with all the different attachments. Like you said, you can do the anti-aging. There’s an attachment specifically for helping skin with acne and healing the skin. And I really geek out on helping people with pain and decreasing pain and supporting healthy tissue. So there’s so many different benefits to making sure we’re exposed to light either getting out in the sun or getting in a Sunlighten Sauna. But being able to expose yourself to the different and full – as much as you can full spectrum of light. Now, I know we’re under a time constraint and I definitely want to make sure I get to the listeners questions because I posted on the Learn True Health Facebook Group some questions.



[35:50] Dr. Joel Kahn: Let me just – before we leave the sauna, let me just shout out three – again, I told everybody I already like science. So I’m going to give three very nonscientific tips here.



[36:01] Ashley James: Okay. Great.



[36:01] Dr. Joel Kahn: Well, the first one is okay. I do my meditation. Which isn’t absolutely regular but I do it in the infrared sauna. I call it saunatation. I’m already isolated. I’m already cleansing physiologically my body, why not cleanse some of the stress. So I encourage people that’s just a perfect place to do that. That’s number one. Number two, I actually do take a big handful of organic chlorella about half-an-hour before getting in the sauna. Because I want to be a plant. And I don’t know for sure if that works. But my blood level of chlorophyll is extremely high from taking 25 or 30 little tablets. Like anybody can buy of high quality chlorella. And it just feels good. And the third one, and please don’t do this if you’re not really healthy and know your status. There’s sort of this strategy, go do a HIIT workout for 10 or 15 minutes after you’ve taken a little handful of niacin, a B vitamin that makes you sweat and turn red. And you might feel very poorly on it so be careful. But it’s over the counter. You know, so take your knives and do your workout and pop in a sauna. You want to have a detoxifying sweat, you will have a detoxifying sweat.



[37:17] Ashley James: Very interesting. So you’re inducing the niacin flush. Is that like opening up capillaries around the surface of the skin?



[37:27] Dr. Joel Kahn: That’s exactly what you’re feeling on the surface of the skin. Clearly, if you’re not healthy, if you’ve had a bad reaction to niacin – I mean, it’s not a medical therapy and niacin is an over the counter vitamin. So I don’t think I’ve completely violated my Hippocratic oath. And I’ve done it a thousand times and so far still alive and kicking. But it’s an interesting little play.



[37:51] Ashley James: Now, I’m going to have to try that. I’ve definitely have some niacin here on the shelf. I’m going to have to try that for sure. I usually get the no-flush niacin. But to want to do it on purpose to open up all the blood flow to the surface to increase the sweating and detoxification, that sounds like a really fun experiment.

I’m kind of like — you know, you hear about this term biohacker. I love experimenting on myself in a safe way. You know, try it out. And I feel like my listeners do the same. They love trying different things, especially when they learn from great guests like you and seeing how it works for them. I have two more things to add to your routine – or one more thing for you to add to the routine is trying a magnesium soak while you’re in the sauna. And I’ll make sure I send you some information on it. But it’s transdermal. It’s a liquid. And you just put a few cups of water with a foot basin while you’re in the sauna, and you absorb a ton of magnesium. And so a lot of my listeners, including myself, love doing that in the sauna as well. And that also opens up the blood flow. And then my favorite – and I definitely encourage you to try it out – my favorite chlorella brand – I’ve tried a bunch of them – and I found that ENERGYbits, they make one called –



[39:06] Dr. Joel Kahn: That’s what I just swallowed.



[39:07] Ashley James: Yes. RECOVERYbits are my favorite because it tastes amazing. All the other ones kind of tastes fishy to me or stale. And ENERGYbits has been consistent with their quality and their testing. I’ve had Catharine Arnston, the creator of ENERGYbits on the show many times. And so yeah, we’re on the same page. I’m so excited to introduce you the magnesium soak. I’ll make sure I send you some information because I know that you’ll really enjoy adding that to your sauna routine and seeing how you how you feel about it.

So let me get to the listener questions because I know that we’re under time constraint and I want to respect your time. Daniela, first of all, says that your – she’s the one that said your podcast is absolutely amazing. So I want to shout out to Daniela. She was really looking forward to hearing our interview.

Naomi has a really interesting one. Her dad had a valve replacement surgery recently because of a narrow valve. And the doctor said it was congenital. But none of his symptoms started until he was 70. And they’re like, “Well, you know you were born with it.” But none of his symptoms started until his 70 and now they’re seeing narrowing of the arteries. Of course, that can be – as you and I know – corrected with wonderful whole food plant-based diet with no oil. What do you say to that when people say – when doctor said, “Well, that’s just congenital. You were born with it.” But the disease never occurred until they were much later in life.



[40:28] Dr. Joel Kahn: Go back to Daniela. Thank you, Daniela, for listening to Heart Doc VIP. Okay. I just wanted to say thank you to her because that was kind of you.

But to go to this question. There is a – the number one most common birth condition, congenital heart condition, is actually what her father had. The last valve of the heart when the heart pumps hard to get all the blood out to the body, it goes through a valve called the aortic valve. That looks like a Mercedes Benz or a peace sign, three little parts. They open, they shot. One person people are born where there’s two pieces, not three. It’s called a bicuspid aortic valve. It looks like your rear end. It has two pieces, not three. But we don’t call it a tush valve. It’s a bicuspid valve. Now, you can now call it a tush valve. And because it’s abnormal, 100,000 heartbeats a day. By the time you’re 40 or 45 or 50 or 55, there’s some scarring, some calcification. And the valve may no longer open enough so you start to get shorter breath, tighten the chest, dizzy. And at that point, you may need something done about it.

There’s nothing you can do about being born with it. It’s common. You might ask a doctor. There is some family history. So your listener might ask her doctor, “Are you sure there’s no murmur there when you listen to my heart with the stethoscope?” But there’s really no absolute necessity to make the diagnosis early, early. But they’re just finish it up. Occasionally with that valve – right above the heart is called your aorta. The aorta may be a little enlarged. That’s a little more important of a finding earlier in life. You shouldn’t probably be snapping or catching 300 pound lifts in CrossFit if you knew your aorta was enlarged. So it might be worth pursuing it with what we call an ultrasound of the heart or echocardiogram, if there really was any question your doctor thought they heard something or there really is a strong family history.

I’ll give you one last little tip because your listeners deserve the best of the best. There is a class of antibiotics – I’m totally shifting gears but I’m coming back to your listeners question. They are called fluoroquinolones. But you might know him by Cipro, ciprofloxacin, Levaquin, levofloxacin. These are actually the most commonly prescribed oral and IV antibiotics in the United States. It is now apparent after 30 years of using them, that they weaken our collagen. They cause rupture [inaudible 00:42:57]. Your Achilles can get inflamed or rupture after a seven to ten day course. But now in the last three or four years, your aorta, the most important blood vessel in the body, can get weakened and damaged after just a week or ten days on these antibiotics. And very recently, even heart valves, all of these structures are made of collagen. These antibiotics have – it took years to identify. It’s not common. But when you talk about tens of millions of prescriptions, if it’s only 1% or 1.5% of people, it’s still a lot of people. Which is why somebody like this father – I mean, anybody within a large aorta should now know that there’s FDA warnings about maybe not using this class of antibiotics that are used for prostate and urinary and bronchitis in the hospital and in the office.

I’ll say as I was just on the doctor show being interviewed on this topic, because it is really important and hot. And Drew Ordon, the plastic surgeon with the white hair and wonderful guy said, “I’m Levaquin right now for my prostate and this is scaring me.” And it is being recommended that you ask your doctor maybe shift antibiotics to another one.

So circling back to your question, it’s 1% of people born with an abnormal valve. It might also cause their aorta to be enlarged. If you knew your aorta was enlarged, you do not want to take these classes of antibiotics. And even if your aorta isn’t enlarged, for the sake of your Achilles tendon and other structures, you still might want to ask, ” Can I have a penicillin or sulfa?” Older antibiotic like Macrobid. These drugs have been out for decades. It’s interesting. It’s not the only drug. We’ve learned new things about old drugs that are frankly changing practice and fairly scary. Next question. Next question.



[44:50] Ashley James: Thank you so much for warning us. Kelly asks, “Are there any recommendations he has for children who are born with heart conditions such as ASD, PFO, etc.?



[44:59] Dr. Joel Kahn: These are interesting questions because, again, birth defects are rarely the common questions that are asked. I’m certainly welcome to have them. I mean, so you can -the second most common birth defect after the valve is a little hole in the heart called a PFO, Patent Foramen Ovale. Usually very innocent. And then there’s a larger hole called ASD, Atrial Septal Defect. And then there are more complex where it might be apparent before birth or at birth that this is a child that has serious problems, blue babies and developmental problems.

But you know, just like that listener’s Father, it took decades. There are people that have had this hole in their heart for it 20, 30, 40 years. And then they begin to get shorter breath or then they begin to get fatigue. So there isn’t a diet, there isn’t a lifestyle, there isn’t a sauna treatment for everything in life. You just need, at that point, good medical care. And sometimes ultimately, a procedure that more and more is not surgery. More and more, it’s some kind of procedure where they don’t have to crack your chest open.

But people should be much more concerned about their arteries getting clogged and the risk of heart attack and stroke. Because the frequency of that from age 35, 40, 45, and up is a thousand times more of a concern than finding out unexpectedly at age 70. You’ve got a valve or a hole in your heart issue. They’re all important.



[46:31] Ashley James: Right. That we can prevent heart disease with whole food plant-based diet with no processed foods would be much better for most of the population. And then there’s a small percentage that has a birth defect but could still – even with a birth defect, couldn’t we still optimize our heart health with a really good heart health diet?



[46:50] Dr. Joel Kahn: Yeah. Always. And there’s an insane number of reasons to as early as you can in life learn the clues. Don’t smoke, stay thin, get fitness, get sleep, manage stress, eat more fruits and vegetables, whole grains, and legumes. And anybody around you does. Be the champion of whole real foods from plant sources. Don’t smoke. If I said it twice, it deserves to be said twice.



[47:17] Ashley James: Don’t vape. 



[47:17] Dr. Joel Kahn: If nothing happens during your life, you’ve just probably added a dozen plus years of good health and reduce risk of diabetes, cancer, brain disease and heart disease. If something comes up in your life, you’re showing up in the best shape possible. So yes, we buy life insurance, we wear seatbelts, we wear bicycle helmets, we’re into the mode of taking certain precautions even though they’re relatively unlikely. Whereas, heart disease is incredibly likely and we neither look for it nor do we really work very hard to prevent it.



[47:50] Ashley James: My dad died of heart disease. My mom died of cancer. And that’s one of the biggest reasons why I do this show. I can’t save my parents. I don’t have a time machine. But I can help my listeners save theirs and save themselves. And we can. We can prevent and reverse disease and add years to your life with all the things you’ve talked about.

You know, we’re on a roll. Heidi says, “I have a question as well. My husband has a rare genetic heart condition called ARVC. His arteries are perfectly healthy but it’s electrical part of the heart that’s not. Do you have any advice for anyone with this condition?”



[48:26] Dr. Joel Kahn: Yeah. Again, an important but very unusual birth abnormality, the right side of your heart, it just doesn’t form normally. And it makes people prone to serious fast heartbeats that could cause you to blackout or worse. And you work with certain cardiologists called electrical cardiologists and sometimes you need that fancy pacemaker called a defibrillator. And they can be life saving for certain people.

And the same comment, show up to that challenge in life. You know, why is that gentleman’s arteries clean? And that’s a very complex question of genetics and lifestyle and fitness and all. But if you start eating plant-based at age 18, as I had the good fortune by luck, you probably are going to show up for that procedure with your arteries clean. And I know at age 60 mine are squeaky clean. There’s ways to get a quick CAT scan and confirm that and there.

So it’s always best. The best protection is to stay out of the hospital on as few medicines as you can with as few doctor procedures as you can. The number three cause of death in the United States is medical procedures and medications that go wrong. Number three causes of death are heart disease and cancer. So the best plan is not need to be there. And I run from hospitals even though I am part of them and I will say I’m on staff with them. But in terms of my own health, I do not trust what goes on in hospitals.



[49:56] Ashley James: Thank you. I love this. We have to walk that fine line of understanding when we want to go to allopathic medicine and when we don’t. This show obviously celebrates all the times we don’t want to go to allopathic medicine but allopathic medicine has its place. And if my heart was beating to the point where it’s blocking out, I’d really want to see a good electrical cardiologist. Is that what it’s called? I definitely want to go see a really good one.

But for prevention and for optimizing our health, then we can do it through diet. I interviewed Dr. Esselstyn and he has seen people with even four blockages in the heart, reverse it within months of going on a whole food plant-based diet, as you I’m sure have seen and know. So it’s just amazing what the body can do when we give it the nutrition it needs.

Teresa asks – she says, “Many of the autoimmune neuro disease experts insist on good fats in the diet. Added fats like ghee, tallow, lard and coconut oils, mostly for cooking and to drizzle over vegetables for absorption. I personally have trouble breaking down fats and proteins and I’ve had to take digestive enzymes with every meal. Is it really necessary to add all that extra fat for MS, ALS, and even Hashimoto’s? I followed Dr. John McDougall for years and felt great. But that was before autoimmunity. So she then developed an autoimmune condition.” And she says, “Also, the experts talk about organ meats for autoimmunity. What could replace a nutrient density in a plant-based diet?” So she doesn’t want to have to eat organ meats and all this processed fat but she wants to heal her body. Do you have any advice for her?



[51:37] Dr. Joel Kahn: Yeah. And I think it gets to just a fundamental question. Where do you get your advice? Do they have any conflicts in the advice they’re giving? And are they really trained to give advice? Because every trainer or every dietitian – at least a dietitian has some formal training if they’re an RD, every health coach can get a blog and YouTube and give advice. Go find me data that you need to eat organ meats to heal neurologic or autoimmune disease. And let’s talk about randomized studies that are out there.

And you know, not everything in the world that’s great has to be plant-based. So there’s so many reasons to talk about a whole food plant-base for the environment, for animal rights, and animal cruelty and suffering. And for the gigantic database that it is the best plan to preserve and protect your health in general and for both brain and autoimmune diseases.

I spent the weekend with Dr. Terry Wahls of HLS. And many people will know she’s a medical doctor with a breakout book called The Wahls Protocol a couple years ago. She’s redoing it right now. And she had disabling multiple sclerosis. She was an internist in the University of Iowa at the VA. And kind of created her own plan of hyper nourishment with ten servings a day of organic leafy greens and smoothies and salads and mushrooms and onions and garlic. And a few servings of animal foods during the week. Far less than the typical Paleo diet. Lots of omega-3 rich foods. And I was asking her by and she recovered her own health. She’s helped so many people recover. I mean, I’m not going to argue with her. She’s walking and riding her bike and she was in a wheelchair. I’m going to tell her diet is other than optimal. It worked out optimally for her and a lot of other people.

There is a similar plan that is all plant-based that’s taught by a physician in Houston, Brooke Goldner, G-O-L-D-N-E-R and her book called Goodbye Lupus or Goodbye Autoimmune Disease, her new book. So you can do it super clean whole food plant-based, super clean almost plant-based as Dr. Wahls teaches. But it’s not all that gook you talked about. And what I love about, particularly Dr. Wahls right now, she took her own personal health crisis and recovery. Her broad experience teaching other people within the VA and other medical systems in the University of Iowa. And now she’s actually doing prospective randomized published studies. You can’t jack with somebody who’s done that kind of science.

And I’ll say no disrespect, but it kind of is disrespect. Show me Dr. David Perlmutter’s prospective peer reviewed studies or Dr. Mark Hyman or Dr. Bill Davis. I mean, these are the giants of some of this weird stuff. I mean, bone marrow and bone broth. I know it’s trendy. But let’s talk about where we follow the typical scientific path of you got a hypothesis, you arrange a study, you do it, you publish it. Dr. Wahls sure [inaudible 00:54:32] has.

So my brain favorites are two neurologists by the name of Sherzai, S-H-E-R-Z-A-I. Which is Dean and Ayesha Sherzai, academic neurologists in Long Beach and Loma Linda with a book called The Alzheimer’s Solution. And I would follow their program for brain and neurological health in that book.



[54:56] Ashley James: Thank you so much. That was great. I love the books that you let us know about because those are going to be great guests for the show. I’m definitely going to ask them all to be on the show. And those will be great resources for the listeners as well. It has been such a pleasure having you on the show. I know time just flies. And I know you’ve got to go. Before you do, is there any advice that you’d like to leave listeners with or homework that you’d like to leave the listeners with?



[55:25] Dr. Joel Kahn: That’s an interesting question, homework, because that’s exactly the expression I use with my patients. So, “Here’s your homework. And I can’t do this all for you. And I can guide you to people.” I believe my opinion are credible and we should spend time. I mean, everybody should watch Forks Over Knives on Netflix. Or if there’s anybody left that has a DVD player. It’s still available. I give my patients the option of taking a DVD home or watch it on Netflix.

If you want to upgrade that, you might watch What The Health from 2017. And very soon you’ll be able to watch Game Changers. A new movie that was in the theaters that will be released on iTunes very soon. I mean, I’ve seen all those movies. You know, there are a lot of health movies that I don’t think represent fairly. But surely Forks Over Knives, which is Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn and Dr. Caldwell, I would certainly say, are fair.

Other homework, let’s see. You know, get familiar with It can be a slippery slope. But that’s the national library of medicine and 30 million scientific articles. You can’t get the full article on everyone but you can and a lot. And like, if you don’t believe me on red light therapy or photobiomodulation and Hashimoto’s, that’s where you go. You go there. And you know, it’s a little tough sometimes to read the scientific articles but that’s a good habit. I mean, you could, I will say, also, put it bone broth and health. That’s where you want to look. You’ll find nothing. Actually, you’ll find one article that says it’s dangerous and toxic in terms of lead levels in bone broth causing bones that your cooking to release some of the stored lead that is in them. But you know, these kind of habits is something if you really want to get as credible as you can. You might know learn simple skills to do.



[57:24] Ashley James: Oh, I love it. Yes, PubMed. Let’s advocate for ourselves by looking into the science. Absolutely. I went to the movie theaters and saw the Game Changers in the movies. And I went with actually one of our listeners who’s a friend of mine, Naomi. A big shout out to her. And the whole time we kept looking at each other going, “We have to get this person to watch this. Oh my gosh. We got to get our parents to watch this.” We can’t believe it. Like, I am so excited that October 1st when it comes out on iTunes, I’m going to buy the digital copy and get as many of my friends and family to watch it. And I really love that it just shows – it blows this idea that that [inaudible 00:58:01] totally out of the ballpark. And it shows that if you want to have really great sexual health and great muscle and great strength and endurance and all that, men and women get it from a whole food plant-based diet. That’s such a cool – and it is really a game changer. Dr. Joel Kahn, it has been such a pleasure having you on the show today. You are welcome back anytime you want to come share with our listeners. It was a true pleasure to have you today.



[58:30] Dr. Joel Kahn: Well, it is mutual fan club, mutual Seattle fan club. And yeah, I look forward doing that. I’d be happy to help you contact any of those other people if you want to get them on because I think your listenership would love them.



[58:43] Ashley James: Awesome. That sounds great. Thank you.




Hello true health seeker.

Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition? And how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity? Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business? Support people in their success? Do you love helping people?

You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program. And it really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over 100 dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition. But from a standpoint of how we can help people to shift their life and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health. I definitely recommend you check them out. You can Google Institute for Integrative Nutrition or IIN and give them a call. Or you can go to and you can receive a free module of their training to check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in. Be sure to mention my name, Ashley James and the Learn True Health podcast. Because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program. And I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information.

We need more health coaches. In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctors offices, you can work in hospitals. ,You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help your local schools shift their programs to help children be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success and their health goals.

There’s so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach. So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. Mention my name. Get the best deal. Give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month. So you’re going to want to call them now and check it out. And if you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.


Get Connected With Dr. Joel Kahn!





Books by Dr. Joel Kahn

The Plant Based Solution

The Whole Heart Solution

The No B.S. Diet

Sep 30, 2019

Grounding Mats: Visit and use coupon code MH during the month of October for free shipping within the US. 

My guest today is an actress, author, and holistic health and lifestyle expert, Mariel Hemingway.

At age 14 she was nominated for a Golden Globe for her
breakout role in the 1976 movie lipstick.

She was nominated for several awards for her
performance in the 1979 Woody Allen movie

Through the years she has acted in or produced over 50 movies and TV shows.

She has starred in, and co-produced videos on yoga and holistic
living and she has published several books focusing on mental and emotional health.

Mariel is the granddaughter of the famous author Ernest Hemingway. Having survived seven suicides in her family Mariel has always focused on shining a light on how we can live an emotionally, mentally, and physically healthy life.

More recently, Mariel was in the documentary "The Earthing Movie."
To watch this documentary join the Learn True Health Facebook group and there pinned to the top of the announcements, you will find the full movie there.

In our interview, Mariel shares great mental, emotional, and physical health tips. She also shares her wonderful experience with the grounding mats. If you would like to get one of the grounding mats for your computer, while watching TV or for your bed while sleeping, please visit and use coupon code MH during the month of October for free shipping within the US.

Enjoy today's episode and have a fantastic rest of your day!


Mariel Hemingway Shares Powerful Health Tips For Busy People



  • What is grounding and earthing
  • How do we ground ourselves and the benefit that it gives us when we do it
  • How earthing can help us release the overflow of electrons in the body
  • The importance of having time for yourself, self-care and self-awareness


Once there was our ancestors who were connected with the earth and living the life we are designed to do. However, with the advancement of technology and the world as one, these connectedness with the earth including all the benefits that comes with it all faded away. In today’s podcast, Mariel Hemingway shares the importance of earthing and being grounded literally and well, sometimes figuratively.


Ashley James: Hello, True Health seekers and welcome to another exciting episode of Learn True Health podcast. I’m excited for you to hear my guest today. She’s actress, author, and holistic health and lifestyle expert. Mariel Hemingway. At age 14, she’s nominated for Golden Globe for her breakout role in the 1976 movie, Lipstick. She was nominated for several awards for her performance in the 1979 Woody Allen movie, Manhattan. Through the years, she’s acted or produced in over 50 movies and TV shows. She starred in and co-produced videos on yoga and holistic living. She has published several books focusing on mental and emotional health. Mariel is the granddaughter of the famous author Ernest Hemingway. Having survived seven suicides in her family, Mariel has always focused on shining a light on how we can live emotionally, mentally, and physically healthy lifestyle. More recently, Mariel was in the documentary, The Earthing movie. Now to watch that documentary join the Learn True Health Facebook group. We were given permission to post it in our Facebook group because it hasn’t come out yet for the world to watch because right now, it is going through the festival. The movie documentary independent film festival circuit. It’s in our Facebook group. You just join the Learn True Health Facebook group and right there pinned to the top is the entire documentary. It’s wonderful. Very fascinating documentary on earthing and grounding. In our interview today, Mariel shares great mental, emotional, physical health tips but she also shares her wonderful experiences with grounding and using the grounding mats that Clint Ober created. If you’d like to get one of these grounding mats that we talked about today for your pets or your children, for yourself, for your computer while working on your computer, while watching TV, while cooking in the kitchen, you can stand on one. Or while sleeping in your bed, go to the website, That’s and for the month of October, use coupon code MH at checkout to get free shipping on any of your orders to the US. If you’re within the US, the United States of America, you can get free shipping when you go to the and use the coupon code MH. As in Mariel Hemingway for the month of October. Excellent. Well, join in the Facebook group just so you can join the discussion. Every single episode, we have wonderful discussions. The listeners love to ask question and we all jump in and help each other. It’s a wonderful community if you haven’t join already, I’d love to see you there. Enjoy today’s episode and have a fantastic rest of your day.


[02:45] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is episode 382. I feel so honored to have with us today, Mariel Hemingway. Who is such an inspiration to me. I just finished watching her documentary Running from Crazy. I love her message and I know you will as well. Mariel, it’s such a pleasure having you on the show today.


[03:13] Mariel Hemingway: Thank you for having me. It’s very nice of you to say those things.


[03:18] Ashley James:  Absolutely. Now coming from Canada, I didn’t really know your grandfather a lot. Ernest Hemingway. Other than, I was forced to read his books in high school. Then when I went to Florida, my parents had a condo down there as many Canadians love to do. We love to go down to Florida and be snowbirds when we’re older. I kept seeing six-fingered cats and they’re like, “It’s the Hemingway Cats.” I just thought that was the coolest thing. Other than that, I didn’t know your family until I watched the grounding documentary that is we actually have a copy of it in the Learn True Health Facebook group and everyone’s been loving it. You were in that documentary. That’s when I first saw you. I was just like, ”Wow. I love your mission around helping people with mental health and physical health and you are such an advocate for mental health and that is something that is still sort of taboo to talk about. It’s just amazing. Here we are almost 2020 and it’s still a taboo to talk about mental health. I really want to just blow those doors wide open and allow people to feel healthy and normal to discuss when they’re depressed. When they have suicidal thoughts. When they have emotional issues going on that it’s okay. It’s safe and okay now in this day and age that we can open up the discussion and that it’ll be cathartic for all of us.


[04:47] Mariel Hemingway: 100%. My sort of mission and passion in life as you know because you watched way too many movies now about me but not really about me but my mission really is to give – I tell my story not because I think my story is so great but because I think my story is so actually pretty normal in the sense at we all have one. We all come from something that’s not perfect. People were unhappy and there were issues. There was addiction. There was this and there was that. Because we’re human beings. By telling my story, it sort of gives other people permission to tell their own. I do believe that the journey towards recovery in all kinds of mental health whether it’s addiction, whether it’s anxiety, whatever it is. The journey towards that is the telling our story to make it okay that we’re not okay sometimes. That sharing that with other people enables them to feel like, “Oh, my god. I’m not alone.” because the worst thing about mental health issues is that people feel isolated and alone. That’s very scary.

I’m actually posting and producing a television show about the prevention of suicide for teenagers. [Inaudible 06:17] is my producing partner because I want to create a platform where kids, everybody but starting out with kids because they don’t know. They don’t know that energy changes. Once a problem today, tomorrow actually won’t be. You know what I mean? We don’t live in that world. We live in a world that is very isolating even though we have connections to 8 billion people and all of their problems. We know what’s going on in the Middle East and in Russia and this and that and the other thing. People never felt more lonely and alone, even though they’re connecting in Facebook or Instagram and all those different places. That’s fun but it should be started from what it is. It is not real connection. It is not a place to really share ideas. It’s sort of why I love podcast. Podcasts are so wonderful because you really get to have a real conversation with somebody and exchange ideas and you could hear people of passion. You could feel – you know what I mean?

To me, those things are important. I think sharing our stories is really a first step in finding some sense of recovery. Recovery is different to everybody. It entails everything you do. It’s not just talking. It’s also about eating. It’s also about drinking water. It’s also about meditation. It’s also about something we’re going to talk a lot about today. It’s also about earthing and grounding. There’s so many elements to making real-life balance. It’s everything you do. Nobody knows, not nobody but so many people, sounds like your audience super informed in the health and wellness field and then those are like, “What do I do?” There’s a lot of people out there that absolutely don’t realize that it’s everything. Our life and finding balance, joy, and happiness is about everything you do.


[08:29] Ashley James: I love that you said exactly that because I have a question from one of our listeners and what you just said leads perfectly into her question. I posted in the Learn True Health Facebook group if anyone wanted to ask you a question. Everyone was just like really, “Oh, I’m so excited to hear that interview. I can’t wait for you to publish it.” They didn’t have any questions then Daniela just posted this question right before we got on Skype, I’m like, “This is so perfect.” I think she’s going to be the voice for us, for everyone listening. Her question is so universal but of course, I feel when I read it, I felt her isolation. It’s going to be great.

She says, “I’ve been listening to your podcast for years. As well as many others. I do so while getting the house, family, ready. Driving.” or anytime that she could put earbuds in basically. She says, “Fabulous information and one of a kind access to a variety of topics. I’m struggling to understand how all the recommended healthy home cooking, food shopping, drinking, sleeping routines, exercises and caring for our kids, self, life partners can be practiced in the real world that we live in. Some of us are super busy and stressed stay at home parents or full-time jobs, taking care of kids, homeschooling, etc. while the rest of us have full-time jobs, business, traveling getting home at 7 pm after leaving the house early five days a week. Just with crazy schedules running errands and also trying to spend time enjoying the family. Recently, I’m getting frustrated listening to all lifestyle recommendations.” She’s having this dilemma managing a busy household while working fulltime. Her question is, she says, “How can we make it practical for families living in the real world without the means of having personal chefs and grocery shoppers and house cleaners, staff, and nannies on payroll. How can they if they only have three hours a day to themselves to play with kids, exercise, cooking, cleaning, and shop and make sure to get to bed by 10? How can they do it all?” she also shares that she feels like some of this big purchases like she wants to buy organic mattresses for her whole family but it’s really unaffordable to do these big things and she’s left feeling like she’s not doing enough for her family. In that, she doesn’t say that she’s depressed or anxious but I can hear the anxiety. I can hear the fear that she’s not good enough. The fear that no matter what she does, it’s not enough because we‘re left juggling 500 plates.

Now you are a wonderful mother of two daughters and you have been in over 30 movies, you’ve published books. You are on the go but what I got from watching one of your documentaries is that you always got water in your hand or kombucha in your hand. You’re always doing these little things to make sure you’re taking care of yourself. If you have a minute, you’re in yoga pose. You’re jumping on the trampoline. I would see you do this. You’d be playing with your life partner on the trampoline. It’s like you’re doing exercise, de-stressing fun and you’re also connecting with your partner. It’ll be like this multitasking. I saw that you integrated little things into this really busy life. I’d love for this podcast to be dedicated to Daniela and all the listeners that feel like they’re in her shoes today. How can we best help these listeners who are so busy to be able to feel at the end of this episode, they are good enough. They are absolutely doing an amazing job and how can we help them to some great life strategies as well?


[12:22] Mariel Hemingway: Well, wow. I still remember, my daughter’s  grown up now but I still remember the days. By the way, I just want to say that even though I’m Mariel Hemingway, that’s a very big name and shoes to fill in whatever that means. I understand what it means to be a mom. I never had a chef or a personal trainer or somebody to go out and take care of my house do all that stuff. I was pretty much like everybody else. I was trying to juggle all those things. I’m not saying all for me. I’m just saying the reality is, I do understand that anxiety. I do understand the overwhelm that life presents itself. There’s only so many hours in the day, I remember when the babies were no longer needing me 24/7 and I got those 3 hours, I found somebody that would help me so that I would go out and spend 3 hours to go for a hike and do whatever. I needed to do for myself. It was in those early years when life was incredibly busy. I was doing a television series called Civil Wars and Attorney. It was really hard. I worked way too many hours but it was about really focusing on self-care in a way I had to really schedule everything.

When I said meditation is a big and important thing to me. I hear in Daniel’s kind of reaching out. I hear like I don’t have enough time. I don’t have time to do this things. What I would say to people, I wrote a book called Healthy Living From The Inside Out. In that book I talked about, if you want to change the way that you eat if you want to start eating organic, change your breakfast. Start with one meal. Don’t make your husband do the same thing as you.  Just you start taking care of you. Change one meal. See how you feel. See if that makes you feel differently. You have more energy. Feel differently. You’re just all of a sudden it’s like, “Wait, that makes difference in my life. So maybe I want to try lunch too. Then maybe I want to share with the family.” I think it’s better to instead of looking at life as this big overwhelming thing, take small bites of it. Decide that, “I’m going to create a little corner of our bedroom or the living room that is just dedicated  to my own, I call it sacred space, I created. When I go to hotel room and I’m doing a job, I create a little sacred space in the corner whether for me it’s meditation but it’s kind of my thing because I need that to ground me. Emotional, spiritually ground me.

 It’s about doing small things. When I started grounding for instance, which is one of the most profound and healing things that you can do for your body, mind, and spirit, it’s unreal. I started slow. I went out for 20 minutes and I complained and thought it hurt. Like a pain in the ass about it. But now, we just got back from a 2-hour barefoot hike in the mountains on a trail. I stepped on some huge chunk rock and I was like, “Aah.” It’s changing my life but I didn’t got there overnight. It’s about doing small things. Seeing how they feel and realizing that you got to make the choice if you’re going to extend that into your life more. Also, as a mother we get to choose. We get to choose what our kids eat for the most part. We can make little changes in their lives. Not big ones be sometimes that causes so much panic.

You just start small. Also being the example is huge if you start doing these things all of a sudden your partner goes, “Why do you look so happy? Why do you look so rested?” You just keep showing up. Taking care of yourself and even if it’s only for a couple hours a day. One to three hours are yours to choose what’s going to make you feel full and more of yourself. I get that feeling of overwhelm. Even though I have tons of tools and I’ve worked a long time, I get overwhelmed. I have moments of panic but about things like whatever financial stuff comes up and you’d worry and yet when you stay, somebody sent me this beautiful quote from Rumi about staying in your patience and allowing life to come you. Because what you want is actually coming towards you anyway. When you’re seeking it out, you’re just in this place of frustration and anxiety, I should read the quote instead of bashing out.


[18:09] Ashley James: Oh no, I love it. Because you’re helping us process it. I’m sitting there in it with you going,”Yes, I’m imagining what I want in life is coming towards me but if I’m so anxious and worried, it’s not going to happen.” All that anxiety I’m creating it’s like I’m delaying it from coming to me.


[18:30] Mariel Hemingway: Yes. It’s usually easier said than done but somebody – actually I’m going to be really super honest with you. I was in a massive panic just 3 days ago. A friend of mine, Clint Ober who’s sort of the master behind rediscovering earthing and how important grounding is to every human being. I reached out to him and he sent me that quote and it is, let me read it to you just because I think it’s so important. I think it was so clear and I did it. That was the coolest thing. I could feel it, I read it. First I read it and I didn’t really registered because I was pissed and I panicked. Then I read it again and I went, “Oh.” Let me read it. Okay so it’s, “When I run after what I think I want, my days are a furnace of stress and anxiety. If I sit on my own place of patience, what I need flows through me and without pain. From this I understand that what I want also wants me is looking for me, attracting me. There is a great secret here for anyone who can grasp it. That’s by Rumi.


[19:59] Ashley James: Beautiful.


[20:01] Mariel Hemingway: How beautiful is that and simple and so I got out of my stupid head, I sat down and I couldn’t meditate because my mind was all over the place.  I sat down on my meditation cushion and I just thought, “Where is my patience?” I just took three deep breaths and I thought, “Help me find that place of patience.” and I could feel myself settle into who I am and I got it. The quote made sense to me and I realized that things more coming towards me. So the desperate search or reaching out and frantic anxiety that I was feeling was just a thing. It wasn’t real thing and it really isn’t who I am. I don’t know if that’s at all helpful but just a lot of –


[21:01] Ashley James: It’s so helpful.


[21:02] Mariel Hemingway:  Anyway, I really like it.


[21:03] Ashley James:  Can you read it again? Because you said, it took you reading it twice for it to sink in. Can you read it again so it could sink in for us?


[21:10] Mariel Hemingway:  100% Okay. “When I run after what I think I want, my days are a furnace of stress and anxiety. If I sit in my own place of patience, what I need flows through me and without pain. From this I understand that what I want also wants me is looking for me, attracting me. This is a great secret here for anyone who can grasp it.” That’s Rumi.


[21:39] Ashley James:  Beautiful. I love that Clint Ober gave you that quote. I had Clint on the show that why you’re here because Clint was such an awesome guest. Him and his team were like, “Yes, we’ve got another great guest for you. Are you ready for it?” [Laughter] Clint’s amazing. I love the grounding movie. I’m sitting here in my desk with my grounding mat. The kind that they sell for computers. To work at the computer. I’m sitting with my bare feet at it. For those who can’t have bare feet at work, you can put it on your desk and have your wrists on it. It’s totally low key like no one knows what it is.


[22:20] Mariel Hemingway:  Also putting it underneath your computer kind of illuminates a lot of the EMFs that we get from looking at our computer. That’s powerful tool.


[22:30] Ashley James: It’s wide enough that you could move it in a position where your laptop could be on top of it and your hands could be on it or it could be under the laptop and under your hands. I love it. I really feel the difference when it’s plugged in versus it’s not plugged in. I know. Like someone could get under the desk and say, “Okay. Is it plugged in or not?” Quiz me, I can feel it. That’s really interesting to me.


[23:00] Mariel Hemingway: Isn’t it crazy? It’s crazy. I mean, it’s crazy good because Bobby and I, Bobby’s my partner. He was in the movie with me. He was been grounding for years. He was grounding a long time ago and he was trying to get me and I was like too tense. [Inaudible 23:15] like whatever. It hurts my feet. Then I really got into it. We were saying since really being devoted and dedicated to it for the past year, how more really intuitive you are. You really get the sense, you know you think of animals and you think that they know kind of when the weather’s changing and they sense things and they known when people are coming down the driveway. They just know things. We think of animals having a sixth sense. The reason they have a sixth sense is because they’re connected to the earth. They’re connected to the vibrations of the earth all the time. All day long. Except for indoor cats or something that can never go outside the city but for the most part they’re connected. They’ve got to get that connection to the earth and as human beings when we connect to the earth because we are a lecturable being stuff like those animals, we get that vibration. We start to have more intuitive sense. We have a sense of what going to happen.

Bobby and I were astonished. We kind of know things now. It’s like, “Wow.” We don’t think of ourselves as psychics. It’s just like there’s a knowing that happens when you connect with the earth. It’s incredible. I’m so excited to be on this mission to help that movement move forward because like I was talking about in the beginning, mental health have so much to do with being grounded. Getting rid of the inflammation in the body also gets rid of the inflammation in the brain. Neuroinflammation is probably the largest percent of why people suffer from anxiety and depression. Why there are teens that are committing suicide and all kinds of people committing suicide because there is inflammation in the brain. We can get rid of that by stepping outside in the grass or buying a grounding mat for underneath your computer or at your feet in your desk. It’s not about selling something but buying a grounding sleep mat to sleep on. I’m telling you it changed my sleep. I sleep so deeply. I was also getting to an age where I like, “What’s going on?” I wake up. I’d be hot and I’d be this and I’m like, “What’s going on?” and ever since, yes, I’m not into it. Ever since grounding, I’m using the grounding mat I’m like, “I slept so well.” I sleep so deeply and I don’t wake up all night and I don’t go to the bathroom 28,000 times. I just sleep deeply and I wake up. It gets you connected with your circadian rhythm of the earth. We’re electrical beings that are supposed to be connected to the earth. I just love that we’re rediscovering our birthright. Our birthright is joy and happiness in our lives. The way that we have that is by being more connected to nature, to where we come from. I just think it’s super important. Bobby likes to say, man can see it has become an innovative copulate. He think he’s smarter than nature which is actually moron because we are nature. How can you be smarter than yourself? We have to reconnect to who we are. We realized, “Oh, I’m this. I’m not that. I’m not 3D, although you stay in the world differently.

 As human beings and probably everybody listening here but we’re connected. The more we can connect to nature the more we connect to each other. The more we can make change in our own lives. We can change the world in a good way. I really believe that. I really believe that in the simple things that we do, whether it’s changing your breakfast, taking five minutes to meditate, that’s why I say meditation is important. Start with five minutes. Don’t put lots of pressure on yourself. Don’t say, “Oh god, I have to sit down for an hour.” Well, that’s ridiculous. We don’t live those lives. We’re not monks who lives in Tibet. It’d be nice but we don’t have that kind of time. You make time, you make little amounts of time and you hold them precious. When you hold time preciously in your hands or in your heart, you create time that makes a difference in your lives. I’ve often talk about exercise. If you exercise with intention and it could be any movement. Hiking, biking, swimming, yoga, whatever it is. It could be chi gong, taichi, blah blah. It could be anything that you enjoy. Dancing, if you do 20 minutes with intention it’s like doing an hour of just rambling around listening to all kinds of things on an iPad not that it’s fun since in a while but with intention, you make a difference in your life. Getting back to again, it’s like if you can do 20 minutes of focus, intention of taking care of yourself, it’s going to be like an hour. It’s going to be like an hour and a half. That’s showing self-care and also sells love. That’s huge.


[29:00] Ashley James: I love it. Five minutes of meditation a newbie feels like an hour. It’s like you’re getting an hour of meditation but you’re condensing it into five minutes and you could set an alarm. Here’s what I would do, here’s what I do. Not every day but I’d to it. Get up first thing in the morning. Usually, it’s pretty quiet in the house. I sit on the potty. We call it a potty because I have a 4-year-old and I set alarm on my phone for five minutes and I meditate on the potty. I’m like, it’s mommy time. I got to just get my head grounded. I’m multitasking but I’m going inward and I’m clearing my head and I’m listening to my inner voice. I’m taking deep breaths and I’m just being myself and centering myself and getting a good intention for the day. My life’s chaos too but I grab these little things. I love what you said about starting the day with a healthy breakfast. I’ve been on over 30 diets and I’ve tried everything. Every time I try one, “Am I doing it right? Is this good? Is this the right one for me?” All those doubts come up.

What I really discovered for me, the whole food plant-based diet for me, for my body is the most healing. I had to go through the gauntlet of trying everything to listen to my own intuition and my body and figure out what I needed but I had to go through all those things that weren’t the right way to eat for me to find what was the right way to eat. I just started this habit a week ago and I’m loving it. It’s exactly what you said, I started with breakfast. I steam one pound of vegs which sounds like a lot but then when you’re done you’re like, “I feel full but I don’t feel overfull. I feel really good.” I eat one pound of vegetables that’s it for breakfast and if I’m hungry later, it could be an hour later, it could be four hours later. I’ll have some potatoes, maybe some more vegetables, maybe some lentils. Then I’m like good to dinner. I’m shocked. It’s 6 pm, and I’m starting to get hungry. I’m like, “Oh my gosh. I just ate two pounds of vegetables today and some potatoes and some beans.” My body is buzzing. I actually have more energy now from that one habit of starting just eating a really good breakfast. I kind of compounded. After that breakfast, I’m on a roll. Lets’ do another pound of vegetables. Let’s go. Let’s see how many I can get into me. It was easy. Today was fresh vegetables but the last week has been just frozen vegetables because I want to clear out the freezer. Giant Costco sized bags of organic vegetables. I’m like, “All right. We are steaming vegetables and it takes no prep time at all to throw those vegetables into the steamer and go into the big bamboo steamer. It’s the little things but I love that. Starting with a great breakfast to help set you up for the day.


[31:57] Mariel Hemingway: And then it doesn’t overwhelm you. When you start slow like that. What I love about what you said and you were so mindful about everybody’s body is different and what works for everybody is different. What works for me doesn’t work for you. Like when you said you’ve done every diet, I think I’m probably older than you since you have a 4-year-old. I have done every diet. [Laughter] I’ve been macrobiotic. I was vegetarian. I was vegan for 20 years. I did all fat. I did no fat. I’ve done so many ways of eating. I ate fruit nothing but fruit for an entire year and then I would have a potato at night. It was insanity because I was on this mission to figure myself out and it was a little bit manic. I’ve gotten to a place where the way that I eat now suits is perfect for me. That’s not always perfect. I am much more plant-based than my boyfriend who is an 0 blood type. He actually eats meat but we’re very conscious about the meat that we eat. It has to be humanely treated. We’re just very aware of the world in which we live because it’s a world where you have to be mindful of all these things but one diet does not fit all because one size is not for all. We’re all different sizes. We come from different backgrounds. Everybody finds their sweet spot is right them. Our things is just eat real food. Eat real food. Don’t eat processed food. Don’t eat food that you can’t pronounce. Don’t eat scrubbed white food. Scrubbed with food is probably not good for you unless its [inaudible 33:55] or something. I don’t know. But you know what I mean?



[33:59] Ashley James: Yes. I had Naturopath on the show that said, “You know, it’s like we’re addicted to baby food.” If you think about it, flour, bread, pizza, pasta. It’s all like chewy consistency. We like this mouthfeel. It’s like baby food. This mouthfeel mushy, soft and I thought it hit me I’m like, “You’re so right.” We’re so addicted to that. Like I want that fatty hyper-palatable. Fatty, salty, mushy feel in my mouth like we get from pasta, pizza, and bread. We’re running around addicted to the drug called food or highly processed food but coming back to real food is that nourishing point that then helps our mental health and our mental clarity. I’d love to know a bit about your story in relationship to your health. It seems that when we watched all of your films, you look so healthy on the outside your entire life. Have you struggled with any health issues? Have you overcome any medical or health issues?


[35:09] Mariel Hemingway:  I have overcome not major medical issues. Because I was so concerned about health for – Literally, my mother had cancer when I was growing up. My father had a heart disease. My entire family, they were addicts so my mission in life was to be healthy. Now when I say I did every diet, I was doing every diet because I was so desperate to find something that would actually relieve my brain because I was so scared. I was so scared that I was going to wake up addicted or crazy or have cancer or something or commit suicide. I came from seven suicides. I thought so my mission is I’ve got to be healthy because maybe if I can control my body that would control my mind and I won’t be scared anymore. My issues was much more, I definitely suffered from depression and I think that my extremism in “health” as far as dieting meaning doing all these extreme things. I think what’s part of the reason why I stayed depressed because when I did all fruit all year, I was basically eating sugar and drinking a ton of coffee. But it was organic so I thought I was healthy.

A ton of coffee or tea because that I was depressed. I was depressed because I am eating this imbalanced too much sugar and then I would go into another extreme and eat nothing but air pop – I mean I’ve done so many strange things. I was looking for something that would make me healthy. Anyway, all of those extreme dieting things did shut my thyroid down. I think a lot of women suffer from thyroid issues. That was the only thing that I really have to deal with. Here’s an interesting discovery, since really being dedicated to my grounding and earthing and what have you, I’ve taken Armour Thyroid now for probably 20 years. I am on half a dose. I may be able to get completely off it because of the grounding which is pretty extraordinary. There was that issue and really depression. I was really suffering from depression but a lot of that is coming full circle and because I have a tremendous self-awareness about because I’ve done so many extreme things not because I was a genius actually I was able to learn but because I’m  so – I’ve done so many different things I’ve come to this place where I really know what’s like for me, I mean I’m 57 years old, I know what works for me. I know what makes me feel healthy and well. I know how to make my brain come into a better place. Besides reading that Rumi quote now or whatever it is. I have opened myself up to receiving the messages that I need to learn and also listening to my physical body and listening to what it needs. Whether it’s a little feather and all these things. The microbiome really making sure that I’ve got a healthy gut. I think all of these things that we learned in the last maybe even 10 years have been pretty extraordinary as far as wellness, self-awareness wellness. What we’re taking care of ourselves. Probably, I like to say we all have the ability to be our best doctors, our best teachers, our best guides. It’s about finding that sweet spot for you. The way of eating that works for you but we all know that’s bad for us, we’re not stupid. We know that we shouldn’t drink diet coke. Come on. Somebody who’s like, “Well, what do I have to give up?” Come on. You know what to give up. Like, don’t eat processed food. I’m sorry. You just can’t. Now you could do it once a week. Maybe you get it once a week. Maybe you have a piece of chocolate cake and you need some, whatever. Somebody’s weird thing is but do that once in a while make that a treat. Don’t make that a daily occurrence. You know what I mean.

I travel a lot. I’m sure a lot of you do. You’re in the airport you see these people in the line at Starbucks getting god only knows what those drinks are, but why do we have to have one every day? You can your cup of coffee everyday but do you really need a pumpkin spice latte every day? You know it’s about we have no treats in our life anymore. When I was a kid, we didn’t get dessert every night. We got dessert once a week. It was like a treat. We didn’t go out to dinner every week either. We probably went out to dinner once a month. It was a treat. We don’t have any treats anymore. I think if we can kind of wheel our lives back in so that we create these moments of joy that we can really splurge and if you need to go out to fast food or dinner and have a crazy dessert, that becomes such a treat for you. But f you have it every day it’s really not that exciting. Then it’s not good for you but if you make things special then they don’t hurt you either. If you drink that pumpkin spice latte you’ve got to have it but you only do that once in a while and you really give yourself permission to do it, it doesn’t have a bad effect on you. If you do it all the time and it’s unconscious, then you’ll know what’s going on.



[41:24] Ashley James:  Or you do it all the time and you beat yourself up and feel guilty for it?


[41:28] Mariel Hemingway: Exactly.


[41:29] Ashley James: I like that you said, do it rarely and then when you do it really give yourself permission to enjoy it and do it and that’s your treat because then at least you’re not suffering from the hours of guilt and shame which are so harmful to our bodies as well.


[41:46] Mariel Hemingway: Oh my god. Unbelievable. It’s so hard on us.


[41:50] Ashley James: I have this theory about treats. We’re getting our daily coffee or daily latte, all these we’re choosing foods that are hyper-palatable that make super enjoyable while we’re eating them but we know it’s not the healthiest food. We do these things almost every day or maybe every day or multiple times a day and I have this theory that when we have a big void in our life that joy is missing. That self-care, time for us and a sense of joy when that is really lacking. We try to fill that void with these substances that can be legal over the counter coffees or prescriptions or street drugs, alcohol. We’re filling that void and when we start to look at how to fill our lives with daily joy, true joy. Then we find it’s very easy to shift our habits and not do that daily latte or chocolate cake or wine at night.


[42:54] Mariel Hemingway:  Exactly. Is that real joy? That’s the question. Is that joy or is that a way to – I’ve come from a family of addicts. Brilliant people. Amazing creatives. My grandpa is the greatest writer in the 20th century. My sister is super talented. My father is incredibly brilliant but they were addicts. They were addicts because they’re self-medicating pain. You have to ask yourselves when you’re doing these things. Are you doing it because you really enjoy it or are you doing it so that you can avoid looking at something that needs to be looked at. My thing is we all have things that we have to look at all the time. It’s never going to end until we’re off the planet. It’s never bad as we think it is in our head. We are remembering a memory that is scary or going back into it seems frightening when you think about doing it but when you actually do it, memory can’t hurt you and things that you look at, it empowers you to dig deep. It empowers you and it frees you. I’m a perfect example of a life that had been freed by my ability and sometimes my struggle with not wanting to look but then finally coming through that whatever to really look at who I’ve become and how I got here and the choices I made that are completely my own. It was never as bad as I thought it would be. It was actually freeing. I’m now at a time in my life that I can actually say, I love myself. I could never say that years ago. Never. It was embarrassing. I thought that was arrogant. I thought it was weird to say that. I just didn’t have that knowledge. I didn’t have that self-awareness. Now I realized that self is really just the most beautiful thing. It’s so obvious because you can’t love anybody else until you really love yourself but you don’t know that to really have that moment where you go, “Oh my god, this me. I’m okay. I may make some weird-ass choices sometimes and I sometimes I fall off a wagon of self-awareness sand self-love but pretty much, I really like who I’ve become.” That is a long journey. Probably didn’t happen until my early 50’s really. In my relationship with my partner has helped me, in having really good friends, grounding has brought a profound sense of self-awareness to me. It’s why I want to share all the things that I know.


[46:01] Ashley James: Awesome. I definitely want to dive into that. Did you have Hashimoto’s? Or was it just hypothyroid?


[46:07] Mariel Hemingway:  Hypothyroid. Yes


[46:07] Ashley James: Got it. So it was an autoimmune?


[46:10] Mariel Hemingway:  No, it was not. Now the interesting thing about that is all the autoimmune diseases are inflammatory based that’s why grounding works so well. It’s curious that even though it’s not autoimmune, grounding still helps my thyroid to condition immensely.


[46:30] Ashley James: Exactly. I was going to go there because the grounding documentary which was amazing like just so eye-opening for me and so many of my listeners in our Facebook group. The Learn True Health Facebook group. I’ve talked about how mind-blowing it was. The whole documentary is posted, is pinned at the top in the Facebook group for everyone to watch. In it, they have scientists and they show that by grounding we’re releasing these electrons that we’re supposed to release. We’re not supposed to hold on to them like a battery but we do because we’re living now in this insulated world of carpet and in our car we’re insulated. Wearing shoes, we’re insulated. We’re not barefoot outside anymore all the day long or sleeping in our ground like we were sort of designed to do. We’re designed to be connected to the earth. We’re not connected so we’re actually holding on to this static electricity of electrons and these loose electrons are free radicals that cause major inflammation and trigger a cascade of domino effect in the body on a cellular level of inflammation. So the white blood cells can’t work properly because this inflammation just taking over and they can’t fully heal something because the inflammation is cascading into harming healthy tissue.


[47:48] Mariel Hemingway:  It’s harming healthy tissue and because we’re grounded out by our rubber shoes and our carpet and all the lists that you said, there’s no way to release that overflow of inflammation. It comes all this electricity and the biome there’s no way we’re not releasing it. It hasn’t become a cyclical thing. It’s why the circadian rhythm is set back because we’re grounded and we become what is going into the earth it comes through us, it comes into the spine. We’re meant to be. We’re cyclical. It’s like DNA, it goes in a circle. It moves all the time but we stop the movement that’s why there’s a build-up of inflammation.


[48:33] Ashley James: It’s like a dam. We created a dam to the natural flow of energy and the dam is all the insulation around us, think about it. We’re lying in a bed that’s insulated, that’s not grounded. We wake up we walk on carpet that’s insulated. Every time we move our feet on carpet, we’re actually creating that static electricity inside us and collecting more and more electrons to store inside us which are free radicals. We get our clothes on. Put our shoes on. Now we’re insulated the entire day. We’re on a car we’re insulated. The entire day we’re on an office building or whatever. The only time we actually accidentally ground ourselves, one of my guests once said that we’d all been dead if it weren’t for the fact that we have faucets. Because we actually wash our hands once in a while and that accidentally grounds us for 30 seconds. Whenever we take a shower, we get grounded a little bit because the faucets every time we touch the faucets that’s grounded.


[49:24] Mariel Hemingway: Yes, it’s true.


[49:26] Ashley James: Five seconds of being grounded a day is not enough to release all those electrons. If you’ve any static electricity like you touched something and you get spark that means you have way too much of these electrons in your body. That’s a sure sign you need to go get barefoot out in nature of get a grounding mat.


[49:43] Mariel Hemingway: I travel with mine so when I get to – I’ve got to get to Vegas. God only knows why. Not my field. I mean in general. It was like, “What am I doing here?” I was in the top of this building, 27th floor. Maybe 60th. I put my grounding mat. I plugged it in. I put it in top of the bed. I just lie in the bed for – because there was no place to go because it was all crazy outside and it was super hot or whatever because I was figuring where to go and it was still summery hot. I lay on the bed and I could feel myself just like be okay. When you sleep in a hotel, the rooms on the high floors in hotel rooms, if you live in a New York City apartment, it’s great but being high up there’s more inflammation, there’s less connection. It so important to have a grounding sleep mat or a mat somewhere in your apartment or your hotel room or something. When I travel and I’m on the high floor I’ve got that grounding mat I still sleep very well. I don’t have any jetlag. It goes within I would say within an hour it’s out of my system. I could see that I have no more swelling in my legs from like whatever the flight may make. It’s astonishing how simple it is and yet you just didn’t even realized it until Clint – he was so great and careful about doing 25 scientific studies so that people wouldn’t think he was a total nut job. It’s crazy that we think that people that do simple things like eat real food and put your feet on the ground or get a grounding mat if you can’t do that. That’s crazy. It’s not crazy. We were doing it before the ‘50s whenever the ’20s and ‘30s rubber-soled shoes started to happen. We do it all the time. We’re grounded all the time. Now we’re grounded no times.


[52:00] Ashley James: My mother-in-law who’s in her 70s, she grew up in Altadena, California. Her grandmother was from Germany. Her grandmother came over who was basically her nanny form her childhood. Every morning as the sun rose in Altadena, which is right beside Pasadena, California. Her grandmother would grab her little hand and they’d be in their nightgowns and shed take her outside onto the grass and for about half an hour would walk around the wet grass and the dew. Every morning it was absolutely mandatory and she fondly shares this memories with me of being in the ’40s or ’50s or something. Putting her feet all the time in the grass and that her grandma from Germany is passing on this knowledge of you wake up and you go with the first light of sun. You get out there and now we know the science behind it. Now we know that reconnects us our circadian rhythm. It resets our circadian rhythms to the earth to see the melatonin burns of when sunlight comes through our eyes but that can’t be interrupted by glass we have to go outside. Then going outside and grounding or earthing releasing those electrons. We’re connecting with the earth. We’re seeing now all the science like you said Clint Ober has done all these studies and science has now proving what our great grandparents and great-great grandparents did as a daily habit.


[53:27] Mariel Hemingway: They did it as a daily habit and they didn’t even know – they didn’t have a scientific reason behind it. They just knew intuitively that was the right thing to do. Bobby and I wake up every morning especially when we are in California. We have a little sandbox that we created. It’s outside and it’s grounded. Got sand in it. literally sandbox for us not for kids. We sit there and we watch the sunrise. We open our eyes and we look into the sun because the sun in the morning and at evening at sunset is some actually take into your eyes. That’s how you take most of your vitamin D, it’s through your eyes. People don’t know that. The science behind that is extraordinary. Some of our great leaders in America I want to say, Roosevelt, who was a sun gazer. I want to say, Roosevelt. I hope that’s right. He was someone believed in sun gazing and taking sunlight into the eyes. It’s profound and it helps your eyesight, it helps your memory. It’s so incredible and how simple is that. That doesn’t cost money. It’s still important to do these things. Watching sunrise and sunset people don’t realize why they do it. They do it because it actually makes them feel better. Yet it’s beautiful but there’s this attraction to the beauty and there’s an attraction to the energy that you get from that. I have an interesting story. A friend of mine who lives in Pacific North West like you do, he was in Portland. He was on Instagram and I was posting something and I saw his story and he’s got this new video of him. He was so depressed. It was like near tears. I immediately direct messaged him I’m like, “Are you okay?” I got him on the phone, I was talking to him and he said, “I feel horrible. I’m so depressed.” It was in the winter. I think it was February. He said, “I’m a mess. I don’t know what to do.” And I said, “Oh my god. Well here, Told you I’m not a doctor. I’m just going to make some suggestions.” He said, “Well, actually I would listen to you. I’m not sure why but I will.” I said, “Look, I want you to go outside. I know it’s probably raining there but I could see on my iPhone in the weather that you’ve got a pocket of sun. I want you to go outside. I want you to take your shoes off even if it’s on the sidewalk. If it’s the sidewalk and it’s cement and it’s slightly damp, you can ground. I want you to take your shoes off and get your feet on the ground and I also want you to look up to the sun. I just want you to take some deep breaths and just spend at least half an hour outside in the air grounding and looking at the sun.” I sort of said just because he sounded so depressed I was just hoping he’d be okay. And he contacted me an hour later and he said, “I swear to God. I feel like this is a miracle because I feel like a totally different person.” I didn’t even realized it would be that effective. That’s real to me. I was like, “Oh my god. This is great.” I was super happy for him but I was also like, “Oh, you know. This is real. This is real.”


[57:02] Ashley James: I love it. I’m racking my brain for why would your hypothyroid that’s not caused by an autoimmune condition, why would hypothyroid be helped by grounding? One thing I thought was really interesting, I’m taking an advanced course for health coaching through Functional Diagnostic Nutrition. I interviewed their founder recently and joined their course and it’s fascinating. One thing I learned and just blows me away is that 25% of our T3’s is converted in the gut. When we have dysbiosis or we have inflammation in our gut or we maybe have some leaky gut or we have maybe eating foods we don’t realize that are IGG response like one of our immunoglobulin response is reacting too. Any of these things can put the gut in a state of metabolic chaos and through that then we convert less of our T3. We go to a doctor and tell them we’re tired and they just immediately go, “Oh, let’s check your thyroid. Oh, you have low T3. Let’s just give you some T3.” Meanwhile, they never look where the root cause was. If you had – so you’re not grounded, maybe your body’s weak point is your gut and maybe you ate something you were sensitive to. Like for me, I discovered I was allergic to bananas. Bananas of all things, right? For me, bananas give me huge amounts of inflammation. It’s so sad. I love bananas. When I don’t eat them, I feel amazing. When I do eat them, I should not eat them. It is an allergy.


[58:32] Mariel Hemingway: Yes. I don’t think that I actually absorb the minerals needed in and out of my food or I didn’t for many years. What I think is when you have less of inflammation in the gut, you absorb minerals. You absorb nutrients.


[58:51] Ashley James: There you were. You had inflammation because by grounding, you’re releasing the inflammation and then all of a sudden you were now on half of the mediation you needed and you’re working towards having a totally healthy thyroid which is phenomenal. How quickly did you see results from grounding for your thyroid? Was it like weeks, months or years?


[59:15] Mariel Hemingway: Within six weeks, I realized that I could bring it down. I actually called Clint. I was like, “Wait,” and he was like, “Oh, you’re on thyroid,” I don’t know how it came up. He said, “You’re on thyroid,” I said, “Yes. I’m not on Synthroid. I don’t believe in that.” he said, “Well, why don’t you try just taking it down a little bit. Don’t do it or take it out totally.” I said, “Yes, I could do that.” It was just fine. Within 6 weeks. That’s how quickly the body responds to having no inflammation. It’s crazy.


[01:00:00] Ashley James: I’d love to hear the story of how you met Clint Ober. Obviously, your partner Bobby Williams converted you to grounding. To walking outside barefoot which does sound painful if you’re hiking in the mountains. I’ve got to admit I too do a lot of grounding in my own backyard on the grass. I’ve had some listeners say that they live in metropolitan areas where all the grass is covered in pesticides. I had one listener say that she was so excited to do grounding. Went outside and started running around the grass and she got really sick because her body couldn’t process the toxins of everything that was sprayed on the grass. It was really discouraging, disappointing and thought how many people want to ground but they don’t have access to a clean yard that they know haven’t sprayed. Luckily, you have your sandbox, right? For those who just cannot get out there and for half an hour to an hour a day in the grass on healthy clean pesticide-free yard and grass or out there in the mountains that they could absolutely benefit from grounding through these mats. I’d love to know, can you tell us the story of how you met Clint Ober?


[01:01:09] Mariel Hemingway: My really good friends are Josh and Rebecca Tickell who made the movie. Rebecca’s in the movie and she’s talking about her daughter who was very sick and she’s the one who had the complete transformation lost 90 pounds or something. In the movie, she’s at 270 now 190. Through grounding by laying on the ground naked. That’s a whole new conversation you have to have with her. [Laughter] she’s a really good friend and they called me. I had done a couple of projects and supported projects that really, great environmental filmmakers. Then they did a fictional movie. A scripted movie, excuse me that I was also in. They called me out of the blue and they said, “Oh my god. We’re doing this film, we just realized you and Bobby are the perfect people to be in this. This is about earthing.” That’s how I met Clint. I met him after film in that and we were at a screening of it and I was super honored I met him in Sedona and I was like, “You’re cool. I want to hang out with you. Teach me all you know.” [Laughter]


[01:02:32] Ashley James:  That’s what I feel about him too. We had a great interview and I was a little gobsmacked. He’s very down to earth. No ego. Really cool. He has what a story. I love his story. For any listener who hasn’t listened to that go back and listen to the interview with Clint Ober. Tell us that day, I’d love for you to walk us through the first day they gave you, did Clint hand you a grounded mat? Or like ceremonially like on one knee like, “Ahhh. Here’s your grounding mat.”


[01:03:00] Mariel Hemingway:  Not at all. We all went out to dinner after seeing the movie. They did a panel on the stage and stuff. And then afterward he goes, “Come to my car.” I’m like, “Ohhh.”


[01:03:14] Ashley James: Come check out what’s in my trunk.


[01:03:16] Mariel Hemingway:  Yes. He opened the trunk and he was handing me blankets and grounding mats. I was like, “Oh my god, I’m so excited.” I haven’t sleep grounded yet and I was super excited to do that. I’ve been grounding for quite a while at that point but never sleeping. Boy that was a real shift. The grounding mats are so reasonable. It wasn’t like, “Oh god. Get a grounding mat, it’s at 8 million dollars.” It’s not expensive. It’s 129 dollars for a single grounding sleep mat. I became so excited by his mission in life. It really is a mission. He’s dedicated his life to helping people understand how inflammation is really causing so many problems. Especially women. Women are just more responsive. Women are usually the ones who get their parents help. When you think about older people and the fact that they need grounding so much more than we realize. Grounding will help with you know, just help the things that are inflammatory based. I got so excited I said, “I want to do a magazine for you.” I created a magazine that we’re going to launch pretty soon called MH earthing. MH being Mariel Hemingway. It’s not because I own it but then we got a little pamphlet on the inside that shows all the ailments that are affected and helped by earthing. Of course, we’re not doctors. We’re not saying that it cures anything but if it’s inflammation which pretty much everything is, it would be affected by this. Few people sharing their story with us at the magazine because we want it we turn it into a movement.


[01:05:13] Ashley James: So you’re going to create a grounding magazine like an earthing magazine?


[01:05:17] Mariel Hemingway:  Yes. It’s called MH earthing.


[01:05:19] Ashley James: I love it.


[01:05:20] Mariel Hemingway:  Yes. it’s really cool. It’s so much fun to do. It’s like, “Oh my god. This is great,” I told my friends please write an article about this. I want you to dedicate yourself to earthing for the next. My best friend, Melissa. She wrote an article and she was not okay. She was like, “I don’t know if I’m going to take my shoes off. I’m super scared.” But she goes out into this soccer field in her neighborhood and now she walks every day and she looks forward to it because she’s shifted. She feels differently and she got her whole family doing it. It’s just cool stuff. And it’s easy. It’s just so easy. So simple and when your brain gets it you’re just like, “I can’t go back. I can’t go back to not doing this.”


[01:06:07] Ashley James: I’d love to hear, that night you’re in Sedona. It’s dark outside and it get so dark out there and you can see the stars so beautiful. The crickets are singing and he opens his trunk and hands you everything and he says, “Try it. Try my stuff.” You went back to your hotel room. Tell us about your first experience with grounding mats and blankets and all that.


[01:06:33] Mariel Hemingway: He didn’t have a lot of stuff so bobby and I we’re very competitive and we fight over everything. It was like, “Who was getting the grounding mat?” I’m like, “Well, I think I have my hands on it first.” He got the blanket. I got the grounding mat. Anyway. We plugged in, read everything and plugged them in and I just remember having a very deep and uninterrupted sleep which doesn’t always happen and hadn’t happened in quite some time. It was wonderful. Bobby slept really well. It was just great. It just make sense. Now, I’ve got extra blanket that I put on the dog beds. I have a 19-year old Yorkie who’s amazing. It’s so funny he sleeps in my room and he makes so much noise because he’s old and he sounds like he’s snoring and ever since being on the grounding mat which is now 7 months, he makes no sound when he sleeps. Not a sound and he’s 20 years old, I’m telling you he has so much energy. He hikes with me everyday when we go out and he likes barefoot hiking it slows me down so he can keep up. Put me down a little, downs me too well. Animals during the day you’ll see them all in the grounding mat on top in the kitchen like they’re all sitting there it’s the cutest thing. They get it. They love it. That’s how do I live, that’s what makes animals healthy. The fact that they’re connected to the earth.


[01:08:28] Ashley James: Yes, we had an old cat we plugged in grounding mat for my feet by the computer and he immediately sat on it. He’s got his routine. He’s like five different places. He likes sitting. He immediately sat there and he always comes back to it. I also have a foot leg rest. I kick my feet up sometimes when I’m at the computer, lean back in my chair and I put the mat up on that and he was like, “Where’s my mat?” then he realized it was up on the footrest and so he’d jump up. We do not both fit. It’s a very small footrest. My legs and him don’t fit. He like subtlety just uses his weight to push my legs foo so he can have the mat. I think I need to get another one just for him. But the animals get it. He was hobbling. He’s like 16 I was suspecting he had arthritis because he wasn’t jumping on things anymore. He looks like he was limping as he walks. He also has kidney disease. The vet was like, “Okay. Well, if we take really good care of him, he could live another three or four years but these things can just all of a sudden turn from the worst and he could be gone really soon. We just got to be careful.” We monitor his urinary output and stuff like that obviously because we change his kitty litter.

After he started grounding, I noticed he was running, he was jumping on stuff and he had about this is big for cat, he was 20 pounds but great amount of that was water weight because of the kidney disease. He just had a lot of water weight. He looks like a completely different cat now. He actually like curves, he has lost a significant amount of that water weight and he is jumping, he has so much energy. It’s so cool. I’m looking forward. I’m going to take him back soon and do the blood test and see how his kidney disease is. I bet that it’s actually gotten better. The vet was like, and he’s a holistic vet but “This thing doesn’t get better. You can slow down the progression but doesn’t get better.” I’m thinking with grounding, obviously, he’s eating the healthiest food we could find. We’re like a nontoxic family. We don’t have any toxic cleaners in the house. We’re really cautious about the level of toxicity inside the home. Indoor air pollution can be 20 times worse as outdoor just from having the cleaning products and the off-gassing of the things in our environment so we’re really cautious to that. Like a said, he started grounding and he’s like a new cat. It is amazing. So many people would say, “Oh, a hundred dollars for a mat for my bed? That’s way too expensive.” but then if you’re like, “Well, there’s a grounding mat for your dog.” They’re like, “No problem.” We will always put our pets before us.


[01:11:25] Mariel Hemingway: I know. It’s crazy.


[01:11:28] Ashley James: Do it for your pets.


[01:11:31] Mariel Hemingway: Because we are animals. You remember. They rely on us. They’re so happy. So easy to just make them feel better. Isn’t that crazy? I know. My little 20-year-old Yorkie. He doesn’t make sound when he sleeps in that. I have a border collie who has some problems when he sleeps on those grounding mats, he doesn’t hobble at all. He’s 12 years old.


[01:11:57] Ashley James: That’s awesome. Very cool. You said that a lot of your friends because you’re doing this magazine that a lot of your friends were introduced to grounding, to earthing through you and they got to share their stories of success. Do you have any stories that really stand out in your mind that you’d like to share with us?


[01:12:15] Mariel Hemingway:  I shared the one about the guy in Portland that was really profound for me. How important that was. I love the woman that’s in the documentary. The old woman who’s like 94. Who’s playing tennis now. She blows my mind. I think for most people, it’s just a level of energy, it’s about sleeping. It’s not like profound because I don’t know anybody with MS but the girl in the documentary with MS, every time I see her and she’s in the documentary several times now. She brings tears in my eyes because she just looks forward to living life and I do have a friend with MS that I haven’t seen in quite a few months. I’m going to reconnect. I’ve reconnected with her husband because I really want to get her a mat because I do believe that it will change her life.


[01:13:14] Ashley James: Yes, they showed that woman who’s in a wheelchair and they just put the patches on her so if someone who wants to use the grounding mat they can use the patches.


[01:13:22] Mariel Hemingway: Yes. There’s so many options.


[01:13:25] Ashley James: Right. Some doctors that listen to the show reached out to me we talked to them. One’s a chiropractor in Canada, we talked about this patch kits. You can put them on your patients and plugged into the ground and then you do it for however long you can because people ask you, “How long should I do it?” I’m like, “However long you can. 15 minutes, an hour, 10 hours. However long you can.”


[01:13:46] Mariel Hemingway: I am reminded of a story with my best friend. She came over and we were doing some business. She was also my manager. She was sitting there and she was wiggling her finger and said, “This finger really hurt, it’s been hurting a lot lately.” She was like, “I think I might have arthritis in it.” I went and got a patch kit and I put the sticky patch on her finger and we just sat there talking and she was writing stuff and she looked down 20 minutes later and she said, “It doesn’t hurt at all anymore.” That’s the beauty. You get rid of the inflammation. There is no pain and Clint talking about that all the time. Even if you’re to going to walk in the yard, sitting on the chair you’re going to feel yourself relived of that build-up of electrons. You’re going to feel that inflammation just flowing out of the body. It’s pretty cool.


[01:14:46] Ashley James: It is very cool. This has been so amazing sharing these stories with you today. And your wisdom around how we can implement these strategies even as super busy people. I feel so honored to have you here today and have you share everything. We’re going to make sure that all the links to everything you do, all the links to everything that you do, your book and everything is in the show notes of today podcast at Mariel, do you have any homework you want to pass on to the listeners before wrapping up today’s interview?


[01:15:19] Mariel Hemingway: Well. Yes. First I would say find somebody that you love and that loves you. That you care about, that you feel safe with and tell your story. However, it is. You don’t have to go on a podcast, you don’t have to go do a television show or anything but tell your story. I think for any of you that needs to release any anxiety about worry come from. That’s number one. I would say take some time to be still. I don’t want to call it meditation because that’s scary for people. Take some time. Whether it’s on the potty as you say. Take some time for yourself that you’re in total silence and just honoring yourself and giving yourself permission to be still and not judging that time that you take. Also, drink good water. Drink water. Just drink more water. Also one more thing and probably the most important thing. Go outside. Put your feet on the ground, in the grass, on some soil just do it. Do it once a day if you can. If you can’t buy a grounding mat do something because I’m telling you, it will change your life.


[01:16:32] Ashley James: I love it. Thank you so much, Mariel Hemingway. It has been such an honor having you here today. You’re welcome back on the show any time to come share with us.


[01:16:43] Mariel Hemingway: Thank you so much. It was so much fun, oh my gosh.



Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price? For high-quality supplements and to talk to someone about what supplements are best for you, go to and one of our fantastic true health coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are highest quality and the best price. That’s Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program.

Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition and how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity? Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business, support people in their success? Do you love helping people? You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrated Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health-coaching sort of vacation program and it really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over a hundred dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition but from the standpoint on how we can help people to shift their life, to shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health. I definitely recommend you check them out. You can google Institute for Integrated Nutrition or IIN, or give them a call or you can go to and you can receive a free module of their training. So check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in. Be sure to mention my name, Ashley James and the Learn True Health podcast because I made a deal with them that they would give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program. I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information. We need more health coaches. In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctor’s offices, you can work in hospitals. You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help with your local schools shift their programs to help children be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them and their success and their health goals. There’s so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach. So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrated Nutrition. Mention my name. Get the best deal. Give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month, so you’re going to want to call them now and check it out. If you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.

Get Connected with Mariel Hemingway!





Books by Mariel Hemingway

Out Came The Sun

Invisible Girl

Healthy Living From The Inside Out

Mariel’s Kitchen

Running With Nature

Sep 25, 2019

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Magnesium Soak



  • Magnesium soak helps in digestion.
  • Magnesium and detoxification.
  • How to get rid of parasites.
  • Natural law of the body and the circadian rhythm.
  • Hormone health using magnesium and salt.
  • The science behind absorption of magnesium.
  • Is magnesium soak safe for pregnant women?
  • Magnesium soak for swelling, cramps, and pain.
  • What to add in magnesium soak? Jojoba oil, Epsom salt, baking soda, boron, hydrogen peroxide?
  • Omega-3 deficiency, chia seeds, and flax seeds.
  • Thyroid and health.
  • Don’t use magnesium in jetted bathtubs.


In this episode, you will discover the benefits of magnesium to our body. Kristen Bowen shares with us today the science behind the absorption of magnesium in our body, how it aids in detoxification, and her magnesium soak.


[0:00] Intro: Hello, true health seekers. And welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health podcast. I’m so excited for today’s interview. We have Kristen Bowen back on the show to answer your questions about magnesium. We cover a variety of topics. And even though this episode is quite long, the time will just fly by as you’re listening. So I hope you’re doing something really mundane like driving or working out or cleaning the house because we’re going to make it feel like five minutes have gone by in a flash. I love today’s interview because Kristen brings so much experience and so many wonderful stories. I want to let you know that at the end of the interview, I kept recording because Kristen, even though we thought we were done, we started chatting and we realized that we weren’t done. So there’s some –

Hey, sweetie.



[0:58] Brave: What?



[0:58] Ashley James: I’m recording right now.



[1:00] Brave: Oh.



[1:00] Ashley James: Okay. You want to come say hi? Put your face in the microphone. Say hi to everyone.



[1:04] Brave: Hi, everyone.



[1:06] Ashley James: Yeah. Okay. Now go play.

As I was saying, at the end of the interview, I kept recording because Kristen shared with me that she really wants to do a giveaway for the listeners. So three lucky listeners are going to win a jug of the magnesium soak, the magnesium muscle cream, and a jar of acerola cherry powder. Each person, all three of those winners, are going to receive each of those three products that Kristen sells on her website, To participate and possibly be one of the winners, please join the Facebook Group, the Learn True Health Facebook Group. Just search learn True Health in Facebook or go to, that will immediately direct you to the group. I’ll be posting a post that’s going to be an announcement in the group that’s going to be pinned to the top for the next week or so and then we’ll pick a winner – pick three winners. And, yeah, it’s going to be great.

And for those who would like to purchase the magnesium soak, the muscle cream, or the acerola cherry powder from Kristen Bowen, her website is She gives the listeners a discount, so use the coupon code LTH to get the wonderful listener discount.

And then later after I did this interview, she emailed me and let me know that she was running an experiment on our website right now where she’s offering free shipping in addition to our discount code on orders that are over $75. So that would look like if you bought the jug of magnesium to soak in, it’s a month supply for one person if you did a 30-day challenge. And the jar of magnesium cream which has lasted me months. So that jar lasts a very long time. My husband and I use it all the time. It feels so good and so soothing. If we ever have an ache or a pain or a headache, it takes it away immediately. It’s just wonderful. I love, love that cream. So if you bought those two together, you’d get free shipping. And you’d also get the listener discount with the coupon code LTH. Excellent. Thank you so much for being a listener.

Oh, you’re going to love, love today’s interview and Friday’s interview that I’m publishing. I am so excited for you to hear it. I have on the show the granddaughter of Ernest Hemingway, who is a Hollywood star and an activist in health, both mentally and physically. And she shared some wonderful information. So that’s going to be Friday’s show. Enjoy today’s episode.

Thank you so much for being a listener. And have yourself a fantastic rest of your day. Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is Episode 381.



[3:58] Ashley James: I am so excited to have back on the show Kristen Bowen. The magnesium soap lady. Kristen, welcome back to the show.



[4:08] Kristen Bowen: Oh, Ashley, it is so good to be here. So good to be here.



[4:12] Ashley James: Absolutely. Now you were featured in Episode 294. That was your first episode with us. And then again, you came back for an encore, 341. I encourage listeners to go back and listen to Episode 294 and 341 because Kristen shares her story. That is – I mean, within five minutes of meeting a complete stranger, I tell them your story. I just – anytime someone comes over to my house, I have them soak in magnesium and tell them your story. It’s just your story is probably one of my favorite stories of recovering and inspiring people who are sick right now.

Because when I say to someone, “I have a friend over the other day who died twice after giving birth.” And the doctor said that she would never live. She’d be a vegetable. She has brain damage. But she is, like – she’s up and at it. And you can tell, because when you talk to her sometimes she can’t grasp at words. But she’s doing amazing, you know, raising her two kids.



[5:18] Kristen Bowen: That’s incredible.



[5:19] Ashley James: And I told her – I got her to soak in magnesium and told her your story. And it really inspired her. And just the idea that I just paint this picture, I’m like, “Kristen was 78 pounds in a wheelchair having 30 seizures a day and unable to barely talk. And couldn’t advocate for herself.” And that’s your lowest point. Right? And so when I paint that picture and then I show them what you look like now and it’s just like, “Oh my gosh.” And she was able to do it with natural medicine recover after – I won’t get into your story because I want listeners to go back and hear the whole story, Episode 294. But you recovered. And you found – you discovered that magnesium was the biggest key to your healing. And that’s why you started your company to help everyone to soak in magnesium so their body could absorb the right amount of magnesium for their body.

And I’ve had lots of experts on the show share that magnesium is the most important nutrient the body needs. And I love that through soaking, we bypass digestion. So even those who have poor digestion don’t have to worry about it. You just soak in it and your body absorbs grams of magnesium. So we get into the details of why to soak and how to soak and all of the healing benefits. And even testimonials, we’ve had dozens and dozens of listeners. Actually there’s over a thousand listeners that have used your magnesium soak and continued to use it and shared their stories in the Facebook Group Learn True Health Facebook Group. And we talked about that in Episode 294 and 341. So definitely go back and listen to those.

But today Kristen is here to answer some of your questions. Because in the Facebook Group there’s a lot of questions so Kristen is going to answer them. And also, Kristen wants to teach once we’ve achieved our full cell saturation of magnesium, how do we maintain it. And looking at how to hold on to the magnesium because that actually will also help the body properly balance and hold on to its other minerals. And then, also, how to discover your burn rate. How quickly or slowly you burn through magnesium. Because once we do the 30-day challenge where we’re soaking in magnesium for 30 days, most people reach full cell saturation. And then the question is, “Well, how often do I soak to maintain it? Once a week, once a month? What’s the answer?” So Kristen, I’m really excited for you to answer all these questions for us today. And it’s just a pleasure to have you back on the show.



[8:04] Kristen Bowen: Oh, thank you, Ashley. But before we go any further, may I just have a moment to say something to you?



[8:14] Ashley James: Sure. You have the whole hour.



[8:18] Kristen Bowen: Okay. No. First of all, we, your listeners, Ashley, I feel like I can be their voice for them right now. We would like to thank you for the person that you are and the way that you handle and share your gift on your podcast. You make it so easy. I have been invited now since your show, because of your show, I have been invited on numerous podcasts. And sometimes they’re a little rough. And you just make it so easy. The questions that you ask and the way that you communicate.

And I realized one of the podcasts – and I can say this because I’ve asked the person not to even air it. It was such It was such an experience of transactional elitism. And the communication style, they were very transactional. And it was very reminiscent of what many of us have experienced in the doctor’s office that if we have questions or we have a different idea that they immediately put that down and talk over our heads. And I just want to thank you for the way that you do your podcast because you make it so easy. And listening back to your podcasts, it’s easier for us, the listener. Like, the guest you make it easy for but you also make it so easy for us, the listener, to go on this journey with you. Because you allow your guests to take that journey instead of making them step to only what they think should be talked about. And I know you call it ego. We call it the rabbit hole. “Okay, Ashley. Where are we going today?”



[10:17] Ashley James: Parasites. Parasites.



[10:18] Kristen Bowen: “Shoot the rifle.” And I just – I want you to experience and just take a moment and just experience our collective gratitude for your podcast and who you are and the way that you communicate on your podcast. It just makes it so easy. So for all of your listeners, I would like to say thank you, Ashley. And a little hand front. A round of applause for Ashley and everything that she does.



[10:47] Ashley James: You are very welcome. Everyone, everyone, you are all very welcome. This is my pleasure. And I get messages all the time from listeners. And I get, like, Facebook messages and emails all the time from listeners sharing that the podcast has really helped them. And I feel honored to be part of your health journey and be part of your advocating for yourself, to educate yourself, to grow. And the fact that you are in the driver’s seat. That you’re taking control and that you’re educating yourself so you can improve your health, your life, and the health of those you love. You are in charge. And that is the best place to be, being at cause. Not sitting around waiting for a drug or waiting for a doctor but you are at cause. And it’s okay that we don’t know all the answers. But the fact that we’re seeking them is empowerment. So I love being a part of this journey with everyone. And we’re never done, right? We’re never like, “Okay. I got to the top of Mount Everest of health. I’m done.” We’re always getting better, right? We’re always learning and growing. And I’ve got my health goals too. So we’re all doing it together.



[12:00] Kristen Bowen: You know, Ashley, I love what you said. Taking that power back and literally stepping into that 100% accountability. And not laying the responsibility on a doctor or a Naturopath or a medication or a supplement. That’s the most important step that people can take is to step up and take responsibility for what goes in their mouth, what products go on their skin, what thoughts go through their head, and what supplements they’re choosing to utilize. It’s the most important thing that can happen. And sometimes it can be overwhelming. Because 100% accountability means you are taking some consequences for some choices that we have all made. And so sometimes that can be a little bit overwhelming. But it’s crucial that you stop chasing symptoms and you start building that strong foundation.



[13:01] Ashley James: Very cool. I love it. Well, your magnesium soak has been quite impactful on my life. And my son and my husband, we’ve all seen a difference. And, of course, when listeners go back and listen to Episode 294 and 341, they’ll hear me share more about that.

But I’ve been having problems with detoxing. My liver gets really congested very quickly. I’ve had inflamed liver. I’ve gone for ultrasounds and blood tests. And in the last four years, I’ve had these flare ups when I go to lose certain amount of weight. The liver just gets really congested, really upset, and it sticks out — actually, it pushes my ribs out. And I could feel my liver pushes out of me. It’s so inflamed. And I would taste heavy metals. I would smell burning rubber like coming out of my body. The smell of like a tire fire, basically.

And I, of course, feel really bad. And we couldn’t figure out what was going on with all kinds of, you know, experts. And it just hit me and this was a few – about two or three years ago, it hit me. Because the doctors were like, “Well, let’s  just — here take these vitamins. Take these herbs. Let’s keep supporting the liver.” But what’s going on? Like, what’s really going on? What’s the root? And I’ve realized that it was the heavy metals stored – my body was having problems processing heavy metals, basically. And that I needed to do something to support heavy metal

Chelation or detox on a very gentle level. I wasn’t willing to do pharmaceutical chelation just yet. But I wanted to try new natural things. And so I got a sauna, Sunlighten Sauna which I love and I’ve talked about several times. I started sweating which is a way to eliminate fat soluble toxins through sweat. And so I was doing that. I was eating the chlorella from ENERGYbits and have talked about that many times. Because that helps to remove the heavy metals.

And I feel like I hit a wall in terms of detoxification. My liver with numbers were still up.  All my, you know, liver enzymes were still up. I was doing all these things. I was getting some results from all of them. Everything I was doing, you know, going for walks, drinking lots of water, like absolutely everything that you could think of to support lymph and support drainage and support detoxification. But I was still hitting this wall. Anytime I’d lose a few pounds of fat, my liver would just really be upset.

And then I discovered your magnesium soak. And I remember the first time soaking and it was with you. You’re giving a health lecture in downtown Seattle. And as I was soaking, I started tasting heavy metals in my mouth. And I told you and you said, “Oh, that means you should probably throttle. And instead of doing it, you know, seven days a week. Do it like three days a week.” I did not listen to that advice.



[16:05] Kristen Bowen: [Inaudible 16:05].



[16:03] Ashley James: Yeah. No, I wanted – I started getting results. I mean, that day I started getting results. And so I just soaked pretty much every day. And within three or four days, the heavy metal taste went away. My liver inflammation went down. And of course, I was doing everything else to support the liver. I’m not saying that the only thing I was doing was the magnesium soak. But I felt like it hit a wall. And the magnesium soak helped me to get to the other side. And I have not had any – since I’ve been smoking for over a year, I have not had any liver inflammation or had any of those issues come up again. And I really feel that that was, for me, the missing key also. Like  in your story, the missing biggest key for you is the magnesium soak. In mine, I feel it was definitely the missing nutrient.

And I’ve been taking oral magnesium for years. But I hadn’t been able to get to that full cell saturation. And I noticed a big shift in my detox. And I noticed that sauna sessions are better. And I followed your advice and I soaked my feet in magnesium in my sauna.



[17:15] Kristen Bowen: That’s – me, I’m Sunlighten Sauna girl also. And to me, that is the ultimate of self-care when I’m in the sauna and I’m soaking in magnesium. That’s my favorite. But we have, literally, thousands of emails and notes that people – and private messages that people have shared with us that the magnesium has helped their detoxification process. And I just like to think of it – and I know this is a complete oversimplification- I love the visual though.  That the magnesium opens up the road. And your detoxification pathway goes from a one lane country road to a freeway. And it opens it up so that your body can do what it knows how to do. It just needed some magnesium to help process it.



[18:10] Ashley James: Absolutely. Like I said, I’ve had doctors on the show talking about the importance of magnesium just the other day. I had a doctor – a Naturopath that specializes in neurology saying the most important – one of the most important nutrients for the brain or the most important mineral, at least, is magnesium. You know, I’ve had a nootropics expert on recently talk about that magnesium is probably the most important mineral for the brain as well. And then and then other experts talk about detoxification.

Again, we go on and on in those other two episodes. So I really want to get to answering their questions. But I wanted to paint that picture that it has, in the last year of soaking with your magnesium soak, it has definitely helped me. And then for our son, it really helps him. It helps him calm down. He’s had some histamine issues because he’s allergic to certain foods. And if he is exposed to them or exposed to dust mites, he gets asthma and histamine issue. And the magnesium soak has really helped him. It helps his body calm down. It helps his neurology calm down. It helps the histamine calm down. So we noticed a big difference when he has the magnesium soak in his bath. And of course, he’s sleeping better at night.

And I’ve had a lot of parents buy the magnesium soak just for their kids to help them have better transitions for bedtime. When we’re deficient in magnesium, we have anxiety. Our nervous system is in a state of stress. We have problems falling asleep. We have restless legs. There’s over 200 symptoms of magnesium deficiency. So when people – it’s like when people ask, “Well, what is it good for?” It’s kind of like, “It’s good for everything.”



[19:55] Kristen Bowen: Sometimes when I’m doing classes, do you remember that late night Ron Popeil – I think he was one of the first infomercial guys. Because people will say, “Well, tell us what it’s good for.” Then I’ll say, “Well, how about you tell me what you’re working on and then let’s talk about how magnesium supports it.” And I do want to be really careful. Magnesium is not a cure all. It is the first place to start building for anything that went off in your body. Because it’s so important to trigger those enzymes and trigger those reactions that are happening in your body. And if you don’t have enough magnesium, those processes are not happening. You can have everything else in place. But if you don’t have the magnesium to act like the spark plug, it’s not going to happen. And so it’s so crucial that we not only soak in magnesium but that we understand our own personal burn rate. Because mine is going to be different than yours, Ashley.



[21:00] Ashley James: Yes. We’re going to get into that. I want you to teach us how to maintain our magnesium, how to discover burn rate, and the best ways we can hold on to it.

But first, I’d love to dive into the questions that the listeners have that they’ve posted in the Learn Through Health Facebook Group.


[21:14] Kristen Bowen: Oh, let’s do it.



[21:16] Ashley James: Yeah, let’s do it. Okay. Let’s see here. I have here Stephanie asks, “I’d like to hear more about getting rid of the parasites. Last time Kristen talked about the cherry powder – the acerola cherry powder helping with parasites as well as celery juice. I have the acerola cherry powder but I’d like to know more about getting rid of those nasty parasites. Like, how to do it? And what’s the best protocol?”

So you did touch on this in Episode 341. We talked about how you rid your body of parasites. Do you want to give Stephanie a bit more information?



[21:55] Kristen Bowen: Let’s see. Stephanie, let’s start here. Let’s make sure that you are not leaking your power. The power of your voice determines the power of your digestion. I cannot tell you how many times that as women will claim the power of their voice that their digestion improves. And it is such a strong pattern. And so really watch where you are not using your voice. Or even for some women, it’s over using their voice. And for some women, it’s under using their voice. So really start watching that pattern.

Another thing that you can do is, obviously, soaking in the magnesium and making sure that you are keeping that cortisol in check. Cortisol, we need some cortisol but many of us are cortisol addicted. And that’s what we’re using to run on for energy. And if you’re doing that you will never, no matter the parasite protocol that you choose to use, you will never get rid of parasites. Because that cortisol – that excess cortisol, that stress level, is creating a beautiful environment for them to thrive on. And so watching those stressful moments.

So for example, for me, one of mine is technology. I am a technical immigrant. I know there is a beautiful language out there that will make my life better. And sometimes I hand my power over to that technology when it’s not working for me. And that’s where I really have to watch losing my power, getting frustrated. And so being able to identify, Stephanie, these are the things that my stress levels go up. And writing those down and identifying those areas and then coming up with an action plan, what will I do?

So for example, right before Ashley and I got on, Microsoft locked me out of Skype and they text me the number and I’d enter it and then it would lock me out again. And I felt my cortisol levels going up. And so I had to take a deep breath and ask myself, “Is this going to matter in five minutes?” And the answer was no. It was not. And that helped decrease those stress levels. And so really watching your cortisol, and knowing where your triggers are, and being able to bring them into the light, because if we keep those triggers in the dark and we pretend they’re not there, we feed them. So bring them into the light. Acknowledge this is an area that I get stressed out on. And then come up with some viable options to walk away from that response is one of the most important things you can do to get rid of parasites.



[25:01] Ashley James: I love that answer. Because from the physiological standpoint, when you are cortisol addicted or when you’re running on cortisol, you’re on your way to burn out. But there’s a compensatory phase. It’s phase two of — phase one and phase two, acute and compensatory phase of adrenal burnout. Acute is you are almost always elevated in the morning, in the afternoon, in the evening. You have trouble falling asleep because you’re just go go, go, go, go, go go.

And then at some point, the compensatory phase is – probably most people listening are in compensatory phase right now. Because the compensatory phase, you’ll maybe wake up with low cortisol but then you have a huge spike at noon or you’ll start like having a spike near dinner. And so you still have sleep problems but you’ll feel exhausted half the day and, like, wired the other half of the day. And you’ll start to self medicate. So extra Starbucks or extra vitamins or looking to the doctor for pharmaceuticals. That’s when people really start to self- medicate and start to listen to podcasts for answers.

And then the third one is complete exhaustion. And that’s where cortisols are low every single moment of the day. And they’re absolutely 100% doing something to self-medicate, whether it’s natural, caffeinated tea, or some kind of prescription medication. But, absolutely, they’re feeling so out of it from adrenal exhaustion that their cortisol levels cannot rise to normal.

And I was there. I was in complete burnout. Over ten years ago, I did the saliva test and I was diagnosed with absolute cortisol burnout, adrenal fatigue. So I know how it feels to be in all three stages. But when you describe being addicted to cortisol, so those first two stages, the body is out of the healing response and it’s in the fight or flight response. And when that happens, the body is shunting blood away from the core, away from the organs, and away from the digestive system towards the limbs so that we can run, run, run.

But the problem with that is, now, we have oxygen starved, nutrient starved digestive system and organs. And that’s, like you said, the perfect breeding ground for the parasites. So no matter how many herbs we take to kill the parasites, if we’re in that state of stress and addicted to cortisol, like you said, and that all starts with the mindset, then the body cannot go into healing mode. So I love that you pointed that out. Because that’s so great. Instead of just trying to sell us some – like sell us the next great parasite cleanse, you’re telling us the root. The root of it is that we need to get in touch with our stress response. And make sure that we’re in the healing mode. Because in that state is when the protocols will actually work.



[27:59] Kristen Bowen: You know, I had a client – I’m so grateful for the people that I get to work with, Ashley. She came to me and, actually, someone else was paying for her. And she didn’t have the money. Their family had just hit really hard times. And she said, “Look, you can’t tell me go buy this and go buy that. It’s too expensive to be healthy.” And I told her, “No. That is a lie. It is not too expensive to be healthy. We can start with the basics.” And I said, “If you promise me that you will work on the basics, I promise we can get you feeling better.” And so that’s what we focused on. We focused on her sleeping patterns, getting to bed on time, waking up in the morning. Getting that beautiful sunshine in through her eyes so that her body could produce the melatonin because your body’s pulling it in the morning to produce it at night.

Got her going to bed on time, staying hydrated, and those little pieces of, what I call, grandma wisdom.

She did more in that six weeks than clients that I’ve been working with for a year that could afford all the supplements. Because they were using that ability to go be able to buy everything to walk away from that personal accountability. She didn’t have that. She didn’t have the freedom. Her family was literally destitute. You know, they had been through incredible financial loss. And because of that, what she viewed then as a hardship that now she looks back and she says, “That’s the greatest gift I ever received because I learned how powerful I am in those choices.” And she was able to create better health in six weeks than women who had all the money, chasing all the protocols, chasing all the supplements, going to all the naturopaths, doing all those things, because she didn’t have any other options.

And I think it’s so important that our listeners understand that. You can’t expect to be healthy if you’re breaking natural law. There are some natural laws that you will pay the price if you break them. If you’re going to bed super late, lower your expectations for how healthy you can become. There is a natural law and your body has a circadian rhythm. And the more we respect that circadian rhythm and the more we feed it darkness at night and light in the morning, the better we feel.



[30:46] Ashley James: I’m having the come to Jesus talk with Kristen.



[30:50] Kristen Bowen: Oh, are you a late night person, Ashley?



[30:52] Ashley James: Oh, yeah. I actually just set reminders on my phone to go to bed.



[31:00] Kristen Bowen: [Inaudible 30:59] text you tonight.



[31:01] Ashley James: Yeah. No, my phone reminds me every night, “Go to bed.” And I’m like, “Really? It’s that time already? “Go to bed.”



[31:07] Kristen Bowen: I know.  And it’s interesting because it gets – the deeper we’ve been in adrenal fatigue, the harder the body fights to obey that natural law. And I will have people come to me and there’s some studies out there that say, “Oh, there’s a certain percentage of people that are night owls.” And I have seen those night owls – professed night owls turn their body around and turn their health around when they respect natural law. And they give their body darkness at night and light in the morning. And when you do that, that cell that mitochondria, it starts to function and set itself. And it triggers other things happening. And it’s a beautiful thing.

And it’s grandma wisdom. It’s things are grandma, “Are you eating enough vegetables? Are you going to bed on time? Are you drinking water? Are you hydrated? Are you managing your stress?” It’s that grandma wisdom. And sometimes, you know, it’s easy to go chase down a perfect supplement or a perfect diet, eating protocol. But in reality, it’s those foundational pieces that we must put into place if we want to claim the ultimate help to really lift and serve and love on those people around us.



[32:33] Ashley James: Beautiful. And then you talked about the protocol that you did in Episode 341. You talked about the turpentine and the acerola cherry powder, and of course, soaking in magnesium.



[32:47] Kristen Bowen: My husband when I brought home turpentine, he looked at me and he said, “Kristen, I have supported you in all of the things that you have tried.” Because I’ve always got some concoction bubbling or brewing. And on that one, he was like, “I just can’t watch you do this. And have you done the research? And what if this makes you sicker?” And once I shared with them and showed him we’re not talking turpentine like what I grew up with my dad. The synthetic turpentine that my dad used to clean paint brushes with. I’m not talking that type of turpentine. But when you get the right type of turpentine, it can end. And once you’ve set some things in place – you don’t start with turpentine. If you start with turpentine, you are not going to feel well. But once you’ve set some things in place and then if you still feel like you’ve got some hookworms going on that turpentine, boom, they’re gone.



[33:51] Ashley James: Right. And it’s a natural extract from, like, pine, pine trees or something.



[33:56] Kristen Bowen: Yes. Turpentine. And I think, Ashley, I’ll send you that link. Don’t you do show notes?



[34:00] Ashley James: Yes.  Please send the link. 



[34:01] Kristen Bowen: Okay.  I will send you the link to that so you can throw it in the show notes. I just grabbed mine off of Amazon. But there’s only one company that tested something that I would put in my body and it’s from pine. And it’s not the synthetic version. But boy, I couldn’t get rid of hookworms. I get half of them. But that’s a disgusting experience to get half of the hookworm because you know where the other half is. It’s still inside you. And so that turpentine just annihilated it. And it was just a huge – it created this experience for me of,  “This is easy to be healthy.” Where I have worked it and worked it and worked it and worked it, like many of your listeners have.

And once – personally, for me, once I got on top of that parasite issue, my health became so much easier to manage. And to have that really optimal where I woke up this morning just ready to go, excited, had the energy to follow through on the ideas that I experienced this morning. And it’s just is easier and easier to experience that once I got on top of my parasites.



[35:24] Ashley James: Very cool. And was there anything else you wanted to add that you didn’t tell us about just for Stephanie’s question? Because you told us that you done, like, a lot of different things to get rid of the parasites. And that magnesium plays a really big role. You talked about the celery juice because celery juice helps to increase hydrochloric acid production. Magnesium, a variety of reasons why that’ll actually help to remove the parasites. And that’s not drinking it. That’s just soaking in it. And the acerola cherry powder, which is really high in vitamin C. A whole food plant based source of vitamin C. And then you did the turpentine. Is there anything else that was really important about –



[36:06] Kristen Bowen: There are two other layers, Ashley, that I really love. And one of those is a product called My Miracle Tea. And it’s a herbal blend. And when I received the product – people send me products to try. And they know if I love it, I’ll talk about it. And it’s to the point now that I have to create pockets of time to try all the products that people send me. And I’ve had this one for quite some time over a year. And you know, I looked at the back and I thought, “Okay. That’s something I’m willing to put in my body.” But I’m not super impressed. Like, you know, I’ve tried all those herbs before. And then I finally tried it. And his quality of herbs that he has, he still grows them himself. And he stresses them because for an herb that increases the healing quality of the herb. And the My Miracle Tea was very, very beneficial in releasing the microscopic parasites.

And I’m a huge believer, if you play a pattern anywhere, you play that pattern everywhere. And the My Miracle Tea didn’t get rid of the big parasites. But it does start the microscopic parasites leaving. And it’s like once that exodus starts, then it’s a step to start releasing the bigger parasites. So you start with the small ones and then go to the big ones. So that was super beneficial.

And then the other one – and I don’t know – if I can’t remember if we’ve talked about this on your show. I don’t know. Maybe should I text it to you to see if you’re okay.



[37:48] Ashley James: It’s okay. Go ahead. I’ll edit it out if it’s a problem.



[37:54] Kristen Bowen: Okay.  I should – anyway, I’m a huge coffee bum club.



[37:58] Ashley James: Okay. Yes. Coffee enemas. Don’t worry about it. You’re in good company. Many listener regularly does a coffee enema.



[38:09] Kristen Bowen: My clients would be like, “Are you in the coffee bum club?” I am a huge – I love coffee enemas. And I know that there are some people that will say, “Oh. They don’t work. They don’t -” and I just say, “You know what? Try it yourself. See if they work for you” Because they are one of the most healing modalities for my husband and I. And there’s something that’s very simple, very inexpensive. You can do them at home. And you just feel better after. And they were a huge part of helping me to get rid of the mucus. I got a lot – I had a lot of mucus. And so I love, love the coffee enemas.



[38:57] Ashley James: Got it. And there’s a right way and any wrong ways to do it. It’s not regular coffee. It’s not roasted. So it’s like a blonde – it’s almost like a green coffee. It’s not roasted. It’s organic. You take about one to two tablespoons for about three to four cups of water and you, basically, boil it and then let it cool to body temperature. And then you can

also add – some people choose to add one drop of essential oils. You can do that. There’s specific ones for liver. The reason why people do coffee – and I found this fascinating. Of course you can Google it and watch YouTube videos about it. It’s that there’s a vein – near the veins. It’s escaping me. It’s like the portal vein. And it’s it goes from the rectum that goes around the rectum and then goes up to the liver really quickly. And this vein takes blood from the colon, from three other organs, and brings the liver to process all the toxins out of.

And so by placing – you don’t have to fill your entire colon with coffee. It’s just the rectum. You just need like one or two cups, really. You don’t need a whole bunch of it. It’s not like the American philosophy of more is better. You just need a little bit and hold it in the rectum for 15 minutes. And when we do that, the blood is taking a little bit of the caffeine so it’s best to do it in the morning. Not right at night. A little bit of the caffeine but this type of coffee, because it’s not roasted, doesn’t have the oxidative damage from roasting. So it takes the caffeine, delivers it to the liver, and actually agitates the liver to produce something like 10 times more glutathione which is the master antioxidant in the body. And that’s just one of the benefits. It does many other things.

But just the fact that it has this huge simulation to the liver –



[41:08] Kristen Bowen: It’s amazing.



[41:09] Ashley James: How many times a week did you do coffee enemas?



[41:11] Kristen Bowen: You know, it varies. It depends on what my goals are. When I was in the thick of that parasite protocol, I was doing them every day. Because my stomach would become so bloated and painful. And doing the coffee enema would release the parasites and I would feel better. And so I do them now, probably – I don’t know – four to six times a month. Back in the day, I sometimes would do two or three a day. And one of the things on the internet, they’ll say, “Oh, you don’t really watch for your electrolytes. You can wash out your electrolytes.” And I’ve never seen anyone have an electrolyte issue doing coffee enemas.



[42:00] Ashley James: Yeah. I’ve never had – I’ve never heard of that problem either. But I guess if people get really overzealous –



[42:07] Kristen Bowen: Yeah. They could get overzealous. So you want to – you know, you want to be smart and you want to make sure that you’re hydrated. But they were one of the most healing parts of that protocol and brought me incredible relief. I love coffee enemas.



[42:24] Ashley James: This miracle tea, I just looked it up, it looks really delicious and very gentle.



[42:30] Kristen Bowen: It is very gentle.



[42:31] Ashley James: You’d think it would have senna or something in it to force sort of the bowels to evacuate. But it doesn’t. It has very gentle herbs in it. Persimmon leaf – persimmon leaf – yeah – persimmon leaf, Malva leaf, holy thistle, marshmallow leaf, ginger, and chamomile. So it’s gentle, really nice on the gut, and it helps to remove – like you said, begin to remove those – but in a very gentle way – begin to remove those microscopic unwanted bugs from our body. I’m going to make sure to link to that in the show notes to the podcast. As well as everything else that you that you recommend people do to support their gut health during a parasite cleanse.

So that was Stephanie’s question. I’m sure other people had those questions because we did get into talking about your parasite experience as you were on your way to healing your body from, basically, your deathbed. And you found that killing – removing the parasites was one step closer to optimal health.



[43:45] Kristen Bowen: Yeah. And please, for those that are listening, don’t jump into a parasite protocol and tell you have worked on the cortisol issue. If you are being run by cortisol, it doesn’t matter what you buy to get rid of the parasites. You will just reproduce another breeding ground for them to grow again. And it’s crucial that the mindset work is done first. You cannot be a cortisol addict and expect a parasite protocol to work. You just have to do that mind work first. And sometimes it’s easy to jump into, “Okay. I’ll buy this and this and I’ll take it and then I’ll get better.” But this one is absolutely crucial that you are on top of managing that stress cortisol before you jump into taking care of parasites.



[44:39] Ashley James: And one of the most helpful things I have found for managing my cortisol is taking the time to do the self-care with my magnesium soak. So I’ll soak my feet while reading a book or listening to music or being in the sauna. Or I’ll get in the big bathtub and soak in the bathtub. And that is my me time to make sure that I’m de-stressing. And so we got to do things to bring the cortisol down. And self-care is really important throughout the day.

But like you said, in those times of stress, we need to switch gears. We need to mentally switch gears. I love that question you ask yourself, “Is this going to matter of five minutes?” And maybe, “Is this going to matter in five years?” You know, if we’re really stressing about something, is this going to matter in one month? Like, just get that in the grand scheme of things. The freaking out about something is actually not helping us. Because once we’re in stress mode, our body shunts blood away from logic centers of the brain. So now we can’t think clearly anyway. So the more you’re stressed about something, the less we can actually think clearly. So it’s best to take that breather. Get that it’s in the long term not going to matter. And then come back to center. So we can lower the cortisol, lower that adrenaline response, and then get our brain back.


[45:59] Kristen Bowen: You know, Ashley, when people will come to me and say, “Kristen, I have tried everything.” At that point I know that the probability that we have a cortisol addiction is incredibly high. That’s why things aren’t working because that cortisol is holding them hostage. It literally is holding them back from experiencing the very thing they say they’ve wanted. So if that thought has ever crossed your mind, “I’ve tried everything. Nothing is working for me.” Let’s look at that mindset issue and managing that cortisol.

And, Ashley, Sunlighten — I think you have a coupon code for Sunlighten don’t you, Ashley?



[46:40] Ashley James: Yes. When I got mine – I got my Sunlighten, I said to my listeners are going to be hearing about this. So I talked to the company and they give free shipping. So that’s like $500 off. And then they give – they call me up periodically and tell me some specials that they’re going to give our listeners. But on the regular, they always also give $100 off accessories. And my favorite accessory if you get the wooden sauna is the bamboo pad, because it just makes me more comfortable, and the bamboo pillows. But if you get like the solo system, which isn’t the wooden sauna but it’s actually a portable system you can just put in your closet when you’re done using it. Then you might want their – they actually have a cream that you can rub on your body that makes you sweat more. And then they have bamboo towels and that kind of thing. So that’s really neat that they give us the free shipping and they give us these other specials for their accessories. Awesome.

In the thread we have in the Facebook Group you asked our listeners if they would be interested in learning about hormone health. And seven listeners jumped in and said, “Heck, yes.” Of course, we definitely want to learn more about hormone health. So there’s seven different comments there about how to support women’s balanced hormones in any stage in their life. Did you have some advice you wanted to share with us in the interview today?



[48:17] Kristen Bowen: I would love to. Hormones are something that can make or break our relationships with those people that we love. And if we’re letting those hormones run out of control, they really start to disintegrate those connections that we have with people. And I’m always telling my clients, healthy women are connected women. And they’re connected to other people deeply around them. They’re not women that sit around and scroll on the phone while there’s 20 people around them that they could be interacting with. They’re connected in the moment with where they’re at. And hormones can make or break that connection. And so it’s something I think that’s so important.

And it comes back to some more of that grandma wisdom. Because our hormones are very connected to that circadian rhythm. And we need light in the morning and dark at night. And if we’re giving our body, the quality of our hormone balance will be better.

So for example, in the morning, I love being up as the sun is coming up. It’s one of the most peaceful inspiring parts of my day. That early morning, watching that sun come up, collecting sunshine for that pineal gland, and just standing there in that beautiful sunlight. And then what happens is that early morning light, our body uses that to produce melatonin to produce in the dark. As it gets darker, our body kicks in melatonin production. And when we have strong light in the morning and strong darkness at night, we find a better hormone balance.

So when you go to sleep at night – so many women are sleeping in rooms that have little slivers of light that are disturbing that natural balance. So for example, I sleep with a little eye mask on. Because we’ve got one window that my husband needs right now for where he’s at but I don’t need that light. And so I just put an eye mask on. I make sure that I am not on computers or screens with that blue light two to three hours before I go to bed. And if I am, I have on some blue light blocking glasses to cut that blue light because that will cut that darkness and that melatonin production that we need at night. And just doing those two simple things can make the biggest difference in how we’re holding on to that magnesium.

When we have a strong morning light and a strong darkness at night, we actually hold our magnesium better. And magnesium is crucial in balancing those hormones. But it’s about our patterns and our self-care if we’re giving those things to ourselves and to our body.



[51:38] Ashley James: And not just sex hormones like estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, but all hormones. Even thyroid, even the cortisol, all hormones are affected by the circadian rhythm. The circadian rhythm can determine what your stress levels are. Your stress levels determine what your digestion – the health of your digestion.

I’m in the middle of taking a course through FDN, Functional Diagnostic Nutrition. I interviewed the founder, Reed Davis, recently and joined his course. And when I’m finished – but it’s going to be in one or two months because it’s self-lead. When I finish the course, I’m going to be certified to be able to run labs. Really interesting labs, not like the kind you get when you go see your primary care physician once a year but, like, really interesting labs. And one thing I’ve learned through the course is that 25% of our T3 is activated in the gut. So if you go to the doctor and your T3 is down, way, way, way down, they might want to put you on some kind of synthetic hormone to bring your T3 up. Meanwhile, they didn’t even look to see why. And it could be totally gut related. It could be because your stress levels are out of balance. Your sleep is – you know, when you go to sleep and, like you said the routine of going to bed, not watching the blue light, which affects the pineal glands, which affects the body’s ability to bring us down into that state of relaxation for sleep. All of that can throw off digestion and can throw off the gut. And then the gut doesn’t convert the 25% of our T3 properly. And then we have T3. So the doctor – you go to the doctor, and you say, “I’m tired all the time.” And they’re like, “Oh. It must be the thyroid.” And they test the thyroid. “See, yup. You’re T3 is down. Let’s give you some synthetic T3.” Meanwhile, it was all that other stuff that actually created it.



[53:39] Kristen Bowen: I just got an email yesterday from Sharon. And Sharon have thyroid problems. She had no sex drive. And she had really started putting weight on in her belly, you know, cortisol weight. And about three weeks into working with her. She emailed me and she said, “I cannot believe it was this easy. I just needed to be in the sunshine in the morning and go to bed on time at night in a dark room.” Her thyroid had gotten better. She had dropped a couple of pounds. She still has some – you know, I’m not saying, “Oh. It all went away overnight.” But the scale started going down. Her mood was better. And it was just respecting that circadian rhythm with light and dark.



[54:26] Ashley James: I love it.



[54:28] Kristen Bowen: And [inaudible 54:29] numbers went up. Because she started holding her magnesium better.



[54:35] Ashley James: And we’re going to get into that. That’s something we’re going to talk about today after we get through these questions. So I’m excited for you to teach that.

Is there anything else you wanted to touch on about balancing hormones before we move on to the next question?



[54:48] Kristen Bowen: Balancing hormones, salt. I think salt is really crucial. I kicked into some hot flashes. We had a little bit of recent stress in our home. And I wasn’t able to do – during that external stress, I wasn’t able to get the sleep that I normally got. And it kicked in some hot flashes for me. And it’s amazing to me what a glass of salt water can do to reduce hot flashes. It’s your body crying out for minerals when you have a hot flash. And so I had salt in my purse, I put it in some water and I drink it. Now, for someone who’s been in full on hot flashes for a while, salt water isn’t going to be enough. But if you’re just starting into them, giving your body that little shot of minerals can actually reduce that hot flash. And it was just incredible. And so making sure that your voltage is strong and salt water is a part of that, salt is a part of that, and so drinking that and water can be super beneficial on hot flashes.



[56:00] Ashley James: I can see – so if someone had that – if someone had a deficiency in salt or someone didn’t have enough, it can definitely be beneficial because – and I’ve heard this from other doctors that when our cortisol center, adrenal are going to attack. So you went through – and I know what happened in your personal life. You went through something that was ultimately a good thing but it was very stressful for the family to go through. And it was just something you had to take in stride but there was a lot of restless – sleepless nights as you helped a family member through health event. And in recovery afterwards.


And so you were – you’re still being her caregiver but you are a caregiver and you were a caregiver. And so you were like a nurse, you had to stay up at night and –



[56:50] Kristen Bowen: And sleep was really – you know, I did that when my kids were little. But it had been a long time since I’ve had that interrupted sleep where you’re up every two hours. And it really took a toll. And I could see a difference in my hormones. And so adding those minerals and really bumping up those minerals brought me back into balance.



[57:12] Ashley James: Right. And when the body – when we’re also in a state of higher stress and the body goes from – you know, you’ve been very responsible with managing your cortisol and then all of a sudden, boom, your body’s need for cortisol go through the roof. Because we need to have the high cortisol if we’re going to pull all nighters if we’re going to be a caregiver for someone who’s sick then we’re going to – or someone who’s in recovery, we need that cortisol. But that your body then exhausted your mineral supply faster, your magnesium faster, your salt faster. And so just drinking that glass of salt water every morning, in that instance, would be beneficial. So some people may not notice the benefit because that’s not what they were deficient in. But for those who are all of a sudden in a more stressful event will notice a positive benefit.

And I like that you intuitively listen to your body and made a little glass of salt water. How much salt would you put in this glass? Because I’ve done this before and I gagged because I probably put way too much. So is this like a teaspoon? Is this a tablespoon?



[58:20] Kristen Bowen: I use the Selina Naturally. That’s my favorite salt. And I use the coarse grain that they have. Because when – the type of salt that is, the color – not all salts the color will indicate the level of minerals. But on this type of salt it does. And the course salt has more minerals than the fine grained. And so on the coarse salt, I would use about a quarter of a teaspoon and about four to six ounces of water. And the interesting thing is, it depends on your cortisol need and your salt needs.


So I was in a higher cortisol state of being. And so sometimes I would do that two or three times a day. Sometimes I just did that once a day. It just depended on where those stress levels were. And that hot flash would kick in, I would drink that. And by about the fifth day, the hot flashes quit kicking in.



[59:22] Ashley James: Nice. Very cool. And you recognize what was going on and you probably started doing more self-care even though you were in a situation where you had to put yourself second, temporarily.



[59:35] Kristen Bowen: Yeah, there were – like this morning I woke up and I had time set aside. And when you’re in that – when you’re a caretaker and in that crisis situation of life or death, you don’t say, “Oh, excuse me. I’m going to sit in my sauna for an hour.” And there were a lot of times that that self-care – boom – went out the window. And I wanted it going out the window because it was my husband and he is my – you know, he was the priority and helping him and lifting him and making a difference. And so there were some times that self-care wishes, boom, gone. But salt water was easy. And it was so beneficial to me and it really helped keep my adrenals nourished during that really intense time for him and I.



[1:00:24]  Ashley James: And he’s doing amazing.



[1:00:25] Kristen Bowen: He is. [Inaudible 00:28].



[1:00:28] Ashley James: He is doing fantastic.



[1:00:30] Kristen Bowen: Really, really well. And learned a lot. We’ve learned, we were really able to lean in. And one of our goals was that we observed the intense emotions that we experienced with the loss. And for those of you that aren’t aware, my husband he was born with vascular issues. He doesn’t have enough veins. And so we had double amputation below the knees. And so we were really – as we went through that loss together – and he went through it definitely differently than I did. We were really able – and this comes into that mindset issue. We decided beforehand we would start focusing on observing our emotions instead of leaning in and experiencing them. And it really made a difference for us and we rode less of a roller coaster. Because we would – the emotion would happen but we would observe it instead of embracing it and riding that wave of up and down, and sadness and loss, and all of those things. And so learning how to observe that emotion really helped him and I stay in a better place during that whole experience that is still happening. But the day we’re recording this podcast in three days, he gets a second leg. So boom, we’re having a second leg party in our house.



[1:01:58] Ashley James: That’s awesome. Yeah. The prosthetic. You’re getting the prosthetic in three days. It’s very exciting.



[1:02:03] Kristen Bowen: Yes. We are very excited. He tried it on and they took it away. And I think it was the saddest look I’ve ever seen on his face. But they still had to do some fitting. And so they’re just finishing up that second fitting. And then he’ll go in and he’ll get to take it home and start practicing and reworking his body and teaching his body how to walk on his new legs.



[1:02:29] Ashley James: What I thought was really interesting when you first told me he was getting his legs amputated, I immediately went, “Well, what can we do to prevent this?” And, you know, ” We’ll do some research together. Let’s figure this out. You know, we got lots of experts we can lean on.” And what I thought was really interesting is you said the doctors really wanted to amputate his legs 20 years ago. And that’s when you kicked in and said, “I am going to help you get as healthy as possible.” Because he was born with less veins than his

body needs. So it’s baked into the cake. Right? But you were able to extend it 20 years. You were able to give him 20 years with both of his legs because of all the natural medicine and the magnesium soak and supporting his health for 20 years. So kudos to you and your husband for leaning into natural medicine for that long. I think that was cool.



[1:03:25] Kristen Bowen: It was so interesting, we were at Stanford and they were doing some procedures to help increase the blood flow and trying to save the legs. And the doctor walked out and she looked at us and she said, “If I wouldn’t have seen that with my own eyes, I would not have believed it.” And we were like, “Well, what did you see?” And she said, “His body has created thousands of little teeny tiny micro arteries trying to get blood flow to his legs.” And she said, “They have kept him going for years.”

And it was – our bodies are amazing. And so a lot of people look at it like, “Oh. He lost his legs.” But we look at it like, “Wow. He kept his legs so much longer than what he should have been able to because of his body and his ability to try different things and try to give his body what he needed to build up that blood flow to his legs.”



[1:04:32] Ashley James: Very cool. Awesome. Well, I love following you on Facebook and following you and your husband’s journey. And it’s really inspirational what you guys have done and what you guys are doing.

Naomi says, “Yes. I love liquid magnesium. And just ordering my second bottle,” in the thread where I’m asking for questions.

Lina asks, “One, when taking a bath, does it matter if I use a quarter cup or half cup of magnesium?” Your liquid magnesium, obviously. “I mean, does it make a significant difference in uptake in the magnesium?” So she wants to basically know should she make the bath more concentrated or is a quarter cup enough?



[1:05:16] Kristen Bowen: So here’s what we found when we did the thermal imaging, your body can’t uptake more than a quarter of a cup. So it’s just wasting the magnesium. And you want to make every drop count toward uptake in what your body is utilizing. So adding half a cup isn’t going to get you to cell saturation any faster. So I, personally, wouldn’t do it. And I make sure that my family has a measuring cup. I have attached it to the magnesium jug so that they’ll measure it out. Because your body just doesn’t have the ability to uptake more than a quarter of a cup of magnesium.



[1:05:54] Ashley James: Got it. And for small children, it’s an eighth of a cup.



[1:05:57] Kristen Bowen: An eighth of a cup. And I always say, waist and below is an eighth of a cup. Waist and above, even if there is still a child, if they’re above your waist, then it’s a quarter of a cup.



[1:06:10] Ashley James: So if the child is shorter than below your waist, they’re an eighth of a cup?



[1:06:14] Kristen Bowen: Yeah. I have a nephew that both of his parents – one is 6’3″ and the other, I think, is 6’4″ or 6’5″ and he’s six or seven and already – I mean he is tall. And so even though he’s “a child,” he is so tall, he does need that adult dose. And so really looking at their body size. But just a ballpark, just below the waist, an eighth of a cup. Above the waist, quarter of a cup.



[1:06:44] Ashley James: Got it. She says, “If my toddler throws a bunch of plastic toys in the tub, does it decrease the uptake? You mentioned not to use a plastic foot tub for foot soaking. So I was wondering if this would decrease the uptake too. I’m dying to know because my toddler threw about 20 plastic animals in the tub last week while I had magnesium in there.”



[1:07:05] Kristen Bowen: I wish I knew. We did not even think to put plastic toys in the tub when we did the thermal imaging testing to see if it made a difference. So I don’t know. I don’t have anything to pull from on this one.



[1:07:21] Ashley James: So I have an intuition. And that is the reason why – just for listeners who don’t know, listen to Episode 294 and 341. You instruct people when they’re doing the foot soak, so just get a basin put five or six cups of warm water and it could be cold water too. I had a friend says, “I’m not going to soak during the summer because it’s too hot.” I said, “You could use cold water.” The temperature doesn’t matter. In fact, it’s really nice because we don’t have air conditioning. So in the summertime, I’d soak with cold water and I’d still get the same great results. But you, basically, get a few cups of water and then you get the fourth of a cup of magnesium – the liquid magnesium, put it in there and then soak for 40 minutes to an hour.

I like to do the full hour because I want to really make sure I caught every drop into my body that my body is going to absorb. But you said, “Don’t use a plastic basin because we noticed that in the thermal imaging people wouldn’t uptake the magnesium when they use plastic versus ceramic, glass, or metal.” And my intuition is, it has to do with grounding. That plastic insulator does not allow for the electrons to flow. But all those other materials would conduct on some level. And so I think it has to do with conductivity. Because you said that in the bath – because a bath isn’t necessarily made of metal or glass.



[1:08:52] Kristen Bowen: Oh, right. Most of them have plastics, right, that have been put on them. And that’s why I thought, “Oh no. This is affecting – ” because I soak in the bath and so I thought, “Oh my goodness.” But in the bath, it was up taking just like it was in the foot soak. And so it’s that moldable plastic that they’re using for bowls that just stops the uptake.



[1:09:17] Ashley James: Right. But a plastic – these tubs that are made from some kind of material that isn’t glass, you know, ceramic or metal, it’s still going to conduct because the bathtub is attached to the faucet which is grounded.



[1:09:36] Kristen Bowen: Right? I think that it would but I don’t – I just never done anything to make sure. But I would think that it would still update.



[1:09:45] Ashley James: Yeah. And one thing to test is to see does your toddler get really calm and sleepy after a bath with magnesium in it. And if they do, do they have the same calmness after a bath with 20 plastic toys in it or with no plastic toys in it. So that would be my thing. But I really think it has to do with conductivity. So that would be really cool to go back and do the thermal imaging and experiment with being grounded or materials that are conducting versus insulated.

Her third question is, “So much number two above, does it matter if I use plastic cup to rinse my body in the tub? I have been using a glass mason jar just in case.”



[1:10:25] Kristen Bowen: And again, I don’t think so. But I didn’t do any thermal imaging on that. But I wouldn’t think that it would affect the uptake.



[1:10:35] Ashley James: Her next question, what are your thoughts on using soap to wash the body while doing a magnesium soak? Does soap decrease the uptake of magnesium?”



[1:10:46] Kristen Bowen: We had – we use body wash and we use a natural handmade soap. And we did notice a slower start when people used just a typical off-the-counter body wash – a more chemical access body wash. And we did notice a slower uptake but it did still uptake but it just started a little bit slower.



[1:11:13] Ashley James: So it kind of like, at the beginning, coded the skin. And then stopped the body from absorbing it but then it kind of washed off.



[1:11:20] Kristen Bowen: Yeah. So it definitely – it made it for a slower start. But once it got started, the uptake was the same.



[1:11:28] Ashley James: Okay. I love this next question she has. “Does pee decrease the uptake of the magnesium? My toddler pees right when I set him in the bath.” My son does the same thing. I’m like, “Why didn’t you -” he’s four-and-a-half. He’s potty trained. “Why didn’t you go in the potty? The potty is right there.” The second you put them in hot water, they’re just – they get -you know. Yeah. But she wants to know –



[1:11:50] Kristen Bowen: Okay. So on this one, I do have some feedback on. We grabbed a bunch of little kids. I wanted to know if you put two kids in the tub – and because I know when my kids were home and young, I popped everybody in the tub. I wanted to make sure, is everybody getting magnesium? Like let’s say, you put two kids in the tub and a quarter cup for you and eighth of a cup for you, eighth of a cup for you, quarter cup total. Are both of them pulling up the magnesium? And so a couple things that we – and the kids when we were testing them did the same thing. They all peed and it would make any difference whatsoever. We saw no difference in the thermal imaging.

What we did see is when you have multiple kids in that bathtub, the one with the weakest levels of magnesium will pull more than the other one. And that was really interesting to me. So it doesn’t divide itself exactly. Like, “Okay. You got this eighth of a cup. And you got this eighth of a cup.” And so one of the children would get more of the magnesium than the other one when there was more than one in the tub.



[1:13:04] Ashley James: Right. That’s very cool. And so if you have multiple children, should they just put a bit of extra magnesium just in case one is absorbing more than the others?



[1:13:16] Kristen Bowen: You know, I wouldn’t. It wasn’t enough that it I felt like it was something that we need to even address with parents. There was a small difference. And so I would still just do that quarter of a cup for each and celebrate the fact you got them in the tub, you got the magnesium in, and they soaked. And as you continually do that, both of their levels are going to go up.



[1:13:39] Ashley James: Lina’s last question which I think you’ve already answered. “How much should I use in the tub for a one-and-a-half year old?” And a one-and-a-half year old is not going to be waist high unless they’re my husband who was six-foot-seven by the time he was 14.



[1:13:54] Kristen Bowen: [Inaudible 1:13:54].



[1:13:53] Ashley James: Yeah. Yeah. He was towering over – I think when he was like six years old, he could, you know, basically could buy alcohol because people – he was just so tall. When he was one-and-a-half, he was so tall. So unless your child is like really, really, really tall and above waist height, you’re giving them an eighth of a cup in a bath.

Now, does it matter how much water is in that bath? Like, I’ve got one of these three person –  like, this triangular three person bath? It’s huge.



[1:14:23] Kristen Bowen: No, it doesn’t. It doesn’t matter.



[1:14:25] Ashley James: So concentration of water, the magnesium doesn’t matter. The body is going to uptake it.



[1:14:29] Kristen Bowen: I’m sure at a certain point if the tub – you know, if the container that they were sitting in got bigger and bigger, it would make a difference. But we did the thermal imaging on just regular, what I would call, [inaudible 1:14:43], you know, a small bathtub. And then we did some in large, very spacious, jetted tubs. And we didn’t see a difference from the size. I’m sure, eventually, if the size got large enough, it would dilute how much you are actually coming in contact with. But the size of the tubs that we used, it didn’t.



[1:15:05] Ashley James: Got it. Great. Cindy says, “I’d like to know the science behind the absorption levels.”



[1:15:12] Kristen Bowen: So absorption levels, so back in the 50s the FDA thought and assumed and everything was based off of our skin is like an armadillo pad and nothing goes through it. And we know now that that was bad science because, you know, nicotine patches and all sorts of – hormone patches and all sorts of things that we put on our skin. We know our skin is our largest organ. And so we’re just utilizing that largest organ to get that magnesium in. Because think about it, if synthetic – oral magnesium is synthetic. It’s been heated. It’s been put into a powder. No matter which kind it is, it’s still synthetic magnesium. If synthetic magnesium got you healthy, we could all eat cold cereal and get enough magnesium from our cold cereal. Synthetic magnesium doesn’t move your cell saturation levels. And that is always my goal to get to cell saturation. And so taking it in through your skin is a way that we can bypass the gut, which is beautiful because so many people have compromised digestive systems. And that’s an issue. And so we’re just using our largest organ to get that mineral in and move those numbers.



[1:16:44] Ashley James: Awesome. Very cool. And you notice the difference when you start soaking in it. I’ve had magnesium intravenously before at a Naturopath’s office. They called it the Myer’s push. It’s a concoction of big, huge syringe, maybe four ounces full of different vitamins and minerals. And the biggest mineral being magnesium. And they warn you, don’t stand up right away. Like, just sit for a few minutes after having it. So they take maybe five minutes or, maybe ten minutes to slowly push it in into your vein. And while it’s happening, you begin to taste the B vitamins. And then you start feeling high and that’s the magnesium. You start feeling out of it. You start feeling warmth in your whole body. Because magnesium opens up all the blood vessels and then if you stand up too quickly – because your blood pressure goes down because all your blood vessels open which lowers the blood pressure. And if you stand up too quickly, you’d get dizzy. And so I’d always have to sit there for a few minutes. Just enjoy the feeling. And then go home

But that’s not realistic for people to get their magnesium levels up. Because not many doctors do it. You’d have to find a doctor that does it. And you have to pay and go every week to have magnesium put into your vein. So it’s definitely not sustainable. But when I first soaked in your magnesium, I felt the same effects. And I thought, this is really neat that I know I’m absorbing it because my body is showing me – is demonstrating to me the same feelings as if I had an intravenous magnesium.



[1:18:32] Kristen Bowen: And there’s two reasons for that, Ashley. One is, our magnesium chloride is not synthetically manufactured in the lab. It’s pulled from the sea. And the other reason is, we don’t water it down for profitability. I want you getting healthy. I want people experiencing health. I do have to keep a profit going in my company to make payroll and keep the lights on. But that’s not what drives me is profitability. What drives me is when I connect with people like you and they look at me and say, “That magnesium made a difference in my life.” And so our magnesium will never be watered down and we will never go with a lab version of magnesium. Because that synthetic liquid magnesium does not move your red blood cell numbers like a magnesium chloride that comes from the sea brine.



[1:19:27] Ashley James: I love it. Yes. The Zechstein Sea that you also test it to make sure there’s no metals. I love that you do that.



[1:19:35] Kristen Bowen: I’ve been burned too many times by companies. They’ll send you a test but it’s for five years previous. It’s not from the current batch. So I realized, “Okay. Their standard and my standards are different.” Because I had so many chemicals after those seizures and I had so many chemical sensitivities and my body had to react. And I needed to know what was going on and so I really started testing. And so we always run our own test before it goes on the shelf.



[1:20:12] Ashley James: Love it. Rachel asks, “I have been wondering about the benefits of soaking while pregnant. I’ve been doing the foot soak and I was curious about any stories Kristen has, if any.”



[1:20:24] Kristen Bowen: Oh, Rachel. I love it when a pregnant mama soak. Because when I was having – and this will date me. I have six children. They’re all launched. They’re adults and they’re launched out of my home. And when I was having babies, acid reflux was not something that was common among newborns. And now when you’re with a group of young moms and they’ve got their new babies, many of those babies are already on a prescription medication for acid reflux as newborns.

And the reason for that is magnesium deficiency in the mama. Because a mama can only give her baby as much magnesium as she has. And that magnesium is crucial to close that sphincter valve for that baby. I cannot tell you how many moms have come to us and said my first two babies were so fussy and so high maintenance and spit up so much. And we have them on medication for acid reflux. This baby that I soaked in magnesium during the entire pregnancy has been my easiest delivery and my easiest baby. Magnesium makes a difference. We want not only that mama to experience cell saturation but we want that baby to experience cell saturation.  Because we know how crucial magnesium is for the liver. And we want that liver strong. And being born with as much magnesium to kick in all of those processes that need to happen to give him or her a viable strong functional liver.



[1:22:21] Ashley James: Love it. Excellent. Oh, yes. So magnesium is so helpful during pregnancy and so helpful for the aches and pains that come with being pregnant.



[1:22:34] Kristen Bowen: You know, your family and you get excited about something, and as my business grows and more and more people will – you know, seeing the benefit of magnesium. And sometimes your family doesn’t get as excited. And sometimes it’s this pull. It’s like, “Oh, listen to me. All these other people listen to me. Why won’t you?” And my kids were teenagers. And I realized the more that I tried to get them to, the more they pushed away. And so I just thought, “Okay. When they are ready. I’m backing off. This is not a fight. I will fight with them when they’re ready. And when they’re leaning in, I’m here.”

So one of my daughters during her pregnancies was experiencing swelling. And so she reached out to me, she leaned in, and she said, “Mom, do you have anything that will help my feet? I’m swelling and my shoes don’t even fit by the end of the day.” I said, “Oh. I do have something. Could I bring you some magnesium?” And she goes, “All that stuff you always talk about?” I said, “Yes. I’d love to bring you some.” And so they used it. And, literally, feet went in the water. Little puffy, swollen toes and feet, and the tops. And you could tell she was just miserable. And the swelling so visibly went down that her husband called me and said, “Could we make sure we have a couple jugs of that stuff?”

And so sometimes when it’s family, you have to be really patient and you have to wait for a very long time for them to catch the vision of what your passion is. But during that pregnancy, magnesium is so critical. And if you’re retaining water and swelling, the magnesium, literally the first soak, you will see the difference.



[1:24:42] Ashley James: I love it. That reminds me – you know, I told you at the beginning that everyone that comes to my house to visit gets a soak of magnesium. And I am not kidding. Everyone does. A friend of ours who lives in Texas flew up here and was going to drive her car down from Seattle to Texas. And flying – she has some health issues and she’s gotten worlds better – worlds better. She was practically unable to get out of bed and very sick. And now, she is worlds better. But she still is working on some things. And one thing is edema. She lost 80 pounds of water weight. I mean, that’s how bad it was. But she would blow up like a balloon. She was poisoned by an old building that had PCBs and all these different chemicals, I can’t remember the names of, that was poisoning people. And now there’s a big class action lawsuit because hundreds of people were poisoned by this building. Her body just could not detoxify. She, like I said, blow up like a balloon. Gained 80 pounds of water weight. So she was on diuretics. Is doing much better the last two years.

But flying triggers a lot of that. So she flew here and her legs swelled up. She was wearing compression socks, but it was still very bad. And I got her in the magnesium soak every day while she was visiting. And she could not believe it. She’s never seen something. I mean, water pills weren’t even working. She could not believe it that after soaking for an hour, she pulled her feet out and said, “Look. Do you remember what my feet looked like? Like, look.” And it went from like elephant, where it’s just like there’s no difference between the knee and the ankle, basically, down to where you could see her toes and you could see the joints, you could see her ankle move. And then she drove so she had to sit. She drove all the way back to Texas and didn’t have the edema because she had soaked every day in magnesium while she was here. And she could not believe it. And she’s in the Facebook Group now and then raving about it. When people ask, “What do you think about that magnesium soak stuff?” So I love seeing that that people have that their body – it helps equalize the edema and helps equalize the water retention.



[1:27:14] Kristen Bowen: If I wouldn’t have seen the difference and if I would have just seen my daughter’s feet and not knowing it was my daughter, and if I would have just seen that online, I would have been like, “Oh. They doctored that.” That’s how drastic the difference was.


And flying is hard on people. And so one of the things that I do to help my body recover because I’m on the road a lot teaching classes and giving presentations, one of the things that I do is I’ll ship magnesium to wherever I’m going to be so that I can soak when I get there. Because I just feel better. It puts me back in my game. And for me, it decreases inflammation which decreases that achy joint kind of thing. And so I just send some. And then that way if I land, it it’s at the Airbnb or a hotel, it’s waiting for me and I can soak.



[1:28:08] Ashley James: Very cool. Now, why not – you know what? That makes me think of something. I’ve been meaning to ask you this off air so I’ll just ask you on air Have you ever thought about coming out with travel sized sample bottles? Because, you know, when we travel, we have to have – what is it? – like two ounces or less per container?



[1:28:30] Kristen Bowen: Two or three?



[1:28:31] Ashley James: Yeah. Maybe it’s three. I don’t know. But it’s these small little – and so I have a bunch of these little size bottles, like reusable, for when I travel. So I put my shampoo in one, conditioner on the other, body cream, whatever. And I was just – the other day, I looked at my travel – my empty reusable travel bottles and I thought, “I’m going to fill these up with magnesium.”



[1:28:56] Kristen Bowen: We actually had some that we sold for that very reason. Because I’m on the road a lot and said, “Okay. I’m wanting to take my magnesium with me. Let’s do a three ounce” At that time it was three ounce. It may have gone to two. But the problem that we had was they were leaking. And so we’ve haven’t been able to find a source. Like, we source some and they were really good and they weren’t leaking. And then we lost that source. And so we had about 6,000 bottles was all. And we blew through those really fast. So we’re always on the lookout for sourcing a bottle that doesn’t leak with them. But I would love to.



[1:29:39] Ashley James: Yeah. You guys are great about – I’ve never had a bottle from you guys leak. Do you guys – the way you package it is wonderful. So I’m always very grateful.



[1:29:50] Kristen Bowen: Every once in a while we do have issues. But it’s interesting to me, Ashley, it’s always from about October until the end of the year. Because mail – shipping goes up with holiday things. And sometimes those boxes are just annihilated. It looks like a Mack Truck run over the top. But I have to say, our shipping department is actually run by my daughter and she does such a good job. And if someone ever does have a problem that they’re magnesium leaked, all they have to do is send us a picture of the problem and we will send out a replacement. Because we want to take 100% responsibility that it did not get to you how it should have.



[1:30:33] Ashley James: Yeah. Well, I’ve had just 100% great experiences with your shipping. And you know, other companies I’ve had problems where I’ve had liquid shipped to me and it’s just exploded. And other companies are just, you know, the same thing. Send them a picture and they will refund me or they send me a new bottle. And it happens. We have to be forgiving to these companies.



[1:30:53] Kristen Bowen: Every once in a while. We don’t – it’s less than a half of a percent.



[1:30:58] Ashley James: Oh, that’s cool.



[1:31:00] Kristen Bowen: So it happened often. But man, when it does and you’re that person, it can be frustrating. So if a listener has that happen, please know, you send us a picture of what happened and we will send out that replacement.



[1:31:12] Ashley James: Awesome. Gretchen asks, “My husband wakes up in the middle of the night crying out in pain because he has a cramp in the back of his thigh or calf. What do you recommend for him? And then he does take supplements that are really high quality.” She mentions them but he has this problem. So he is on a multi-mineral and multivitamin and everything.



[1:31:38] Kristen Bowen: Right. Soaking in magnesium. We can’t get enough of that orally. And the type of magnesium that we have to take orally is not going to move the dial on getting to cell saturation. And so soaking in that magnesium is going to be crucial. And we just have hundreds of emails and messages and maybe even thousands now – probably thousands of messages saying, “My cramping has gone away.” For some people, it goes away with the first soak and it never comes back. Other people, it takes longer. And so it really depends on some things that are happening in your body how long it will take. But we can always get that to clear up.



[1:32:24] Ashley James: And for those who don’t know the physiology, the two major minerals in the body are calcium and magnesium. Calcium is used in the muscle to contract. Magnesium is used to relax. So when we have a problem with cramps, the muscle isn’t relaxing. There’s a magnesium deficit or an imbalance in the calcium to magnesium ratio because they should be two to one in the body – in the soft tissue.

But it’s so important. Magnesium and calcium are so important that when we’re deficient in it, our parathyroid will tell the bones – will create a hormone to tell the bones to release magnesium into the bloodstream and release calcium and other minerals into the bloodstream. So if you get – and this is something I want to talk about because you had posted recently about this. If you get certain blood tests, the doctors will be like, “Oh, your calcium-magnesium levels are fine.” But what they’re testing is the serum level. And that is always going to be high – or always going to be on healthy levels because the parathyroid will leach these metals from your bones causing osteopenia and eventually osteoporosis in order to compensate for the soft tissue. And so the blood test you recommend is the magnesium RBC test. Can you can you go into that just a little bit for those who didn’t hear about it in the other episodes?



[1:33:54] Kristen Bowen: I love the magnesium RBC test red blood cell because Magnesium so crucial for your body that it’s going to do everything it can to keep your serum at 1%. And so it just doesn’t give us an accurate picture of what’s really happening.



[1:34:14] Ashley James: When you get the serum test.



[1:34:16] Kristen Bowen: Yes. And so that magnesium RBC, we want ultimately to be between 6.3 and 7. And that’s where we want to stay. And that’s where that burn rate comes in, Ashley. Because, let’s say, you do the 30-day challenge and you get your magnesium RBC and you’re at 6.4. That’s awesome. But how do you stay there? And that will be different for you than it will be for me. How you manage cortisol, how much sugar you eat, how much sleep you get, all of those things will play a role in how you burn through your magnesium.

So for example, my husband’s amputations, fighting the insurance, they kicked him out, they denied a double amputee rehabilitation time. And it was incredibly stressful. Like, just every time I turned around, I was having to fight another battle. Plus, make sure I was taking care of him in the best way possible. So I knew I needed to soak every day again because I was just burning through that magnesium. Now, we’re out of that intense and we’re just in that learning curve. Normally, I have to soak one to two times a week to keep my magnesium levels where they need to be. But because we’re still – we have lots of extra doctor’s appointments, we have lots of people in our home, occupational therapists, physical therapists, and it’s just – we’re still in that learning curve of just one leg, getting them showered, and that kind of thing. I’m having to soak three times a week – three to four times a week to keep my levels where they need to be.

And so not only does that magnesium red blood cell test show you where your numbers are. It can show you how you’re burning through your magnesium. And so I’ve taken that a couple of times. And so I know how much I need to soak in really stressful times, how much I need to soak during holiday times, and how much I need to soak in the summertime. And so it can really give you personal feedback on what your body needs.

Because, Ashley, you and I have very similar goals, what we want. And we have very similar businesses. We’re both in the same industry but our burn rate is very different. And so that RBC test can help you and give you feedback for your own personal burn rate.



[1:37:01] Ashley James: Awesome. Since we’re on the subject, let’s cover it and then get back to the rest of the questions. The website and we’ll have a link to it is, And I think it’s, like, $50 for the blood test.



[1:37:18] Kristen Bowen: Forty-nine. And they run sales. Anytime you go to do that, if you don’t have – I’ve got a little thing on my laptop that scans for coupon codes. But search for coupon codes for Walk-in Labs, because there’s almost always a coupon code you can use to bring that cost down a little bit.



[1:37:39] Ashley James: And so we can go – and I don’t know about Canada or any other country. I just know that this website specifically is for labs in the US. But you buy the lab online and then they direct you to a local lab. You just bring the printout. And then they draw your blood, send it in, and then they’ll send you the results. So you don’t need to go see a doctor to have this blood test. And then, basically, for $49 or less, you have now received the results of where your magnesium is and where your levels are.

You said that when the first month when you do a 30-day challenge, you want to reach 5 – 5.0. But that is an optimal. That’s just kind of getting us in the ballpark. Can you talk about the ballpark versus optimal?



[1:38:26] Kristen Bowen: Absolutely. So one thing I want to throw in about the labs, I have a really good friend who lives in South Dakota, who actually teaches magnesium classes and will do magnesium classes. And so she went on and got the lab and then went to see where she needed to go. And her lab was six hours away because she’s in a very rural area.

So for example, I live in Morro Bay, California and I have 30 labs within 15 minutes of me. And so please make sure, before you buy that test that you’re in an area that there’s a lab that’s within drive-able distance. Like, where my warehouse and retail are in Logan, Utah, I have to drive about 30 minutes. So it will really vary depending on where you live in the United States.



[1:39:15] Ashley James: Sure. And you might –



[1:39:16] Kristen Bowen: So just [inaudible 1:39:17] throw that out.



[1:39:18] Ashley James: Right. Right. And you might be able to talk to a local doctor’s office into doing it or your PCP might be willing to draw the blood if they draw your blood normally. So you might be able to figure something out if it’s, like you said, within like, six hours drive away.



[1:39:35] Kristen Bowen: Doctors didn’t even have access to that lab. But more and more I’m hearing back from people, “Hey, my doctor was able to pull that lab and my insurance paid for it.”



[1:39:46] Ashley James: Oh, cool.



[1:39:46] Kristen Bowen: Yeah. So there’s a real shift coming that way. And three years ago, there wasn’t a doctor that had even heard of that. And now I’m getting feedback from more and more people, “Hey, my doctor had that lab available on his list of what he could ask to be done for me.” So always ask, you know, the worst thing that will happen is, they say, “No. We don’t have access to that lab.” But if you don’t have that you can always go to



[1:40:14] Ashley James: Got it. And it’s not walking labs. Don’t put the S in. Because it’ll just be -it’s just a broken site if you put the S in. It’s I learned that the hard way.

And yeah, I love your recommendation of ask. Worst case scenario, we’re stuck back where we were at the beginning but at least we could ask. You’re really on the cutting edge. You know, it’s like you said three years ago, people hadn’t even heard of this blood test. And now, doctors are starting to get connected. So you are on the cutting edge.



[1:40:47] Kristen Bowen: I love the relationships that I’ve been able to build within the western community – western medical community, especially those that are really into collaborative communication. And because I think western has some things to offer us and I think we have some things to offer Western. And I think a lot of doctors and nurses, we have some amazing doctors and nurses, and they recognize they are working within a very broken system. And the breakdown of that system is creating an opportunity for them to look somewhere else. And the benefit of that is, they’re starting to look at better solutions. It’s happening but very slowly. I do want that to happen faster, but it is happening and that’s a good thing.



[1:41:40] Ashley James: Excellent. So yeah, let’s get into just understanding – getting to cell saturation. So you’re getting to 5.0. In the first month of soaking, you’re getting to 5.0. If you were to do the blood test, you’re getting a 5.0. And then the next step is getting to optimal Can you explain why 5.0 is sort of – it’s in the range of good but not optimal? And what is optimal?



[1:42:04] Kristen Bowen: Okay. So we used to – when we started, we used to have what we call the 21-day challenge. And in 21 days, we wanted people soaking, you know, every day to get their numbers up. And that worked. And then we started noticing 21 days was not enough for some people to really move the dial on that magnesium RBC number. Because as a society, we’re getting more stressed and sicker. And so we realized we needed to make it a 30-day challenge because we wanted people seeing that dial – that RBC number move. So within a 30-day challenge, we want to come to a 5. But you’re right, 5 is not optimal.

But the thousands of magnesium RBC tests that I have looked at with people that they have taken, when they’re at a 5 we know that their magnesium numbers will move up as they soak. Because sometimes people will soak and nothing happens. They’re moving very, very little. And that percentage, we don’t want that. We want them testing to make sure that their numbers are moving fast enough. So if they test after doing a 30-day challenge and their number is 4.2, we know we have a crack in their foundation. And I cannot tell you how many women have soaked for years and they finally go get tested. And they’re like, “Kristen, I’ve had benefit from the magnesium. But I just did a 30-day challenge and I only tested at 4.7.”

Just think if they would have known that four years ago when they started testing, we could have addressed the crack in their foundation versus them soaking for four years thinking they were doing optimal health magnesium soaking for their body. So in my opinion, it’s really crucial. Because if your numbers aren’t moving, we need to look and find out what crack is happening in your foundation. And how can we go in and support that so we can get those numbers moving?



[1:44:30] Ashley James: Right. So it’s part of the discussion about maintaining your optimal levels once you reached it. But if you’ve never reached optimal, if you’ve never got to 7 – 7.0, for example, no matter how much you soak, then you’re burning faster than your body can absorb. And magnesium being a major nutrient the body needs, It’s easier to identify. Right? Like, “Oh, wow. It’s really – no matter what we do, we can’t reach optimal.” Just think of the 59 other minerals, what’s happening to them? What’s happening to your levels of the other nutrients in your body? Because if your body’s burning through magnesium quickly, it’s burning through those other ones as well. And there’s so many symptoms that arise from mineral deficiency that people brush off as normal aging. Right? But they’re not.

I’ve seen people have a reversal in gray hair because they were copper deficient. They didn’t know that copper deficiency can cause early gray hair and premature lines and wrinkles. For example, I don’t recommend people go out and get a copper supplement. It’s more of a hole – you want all the minerals together. But if we’re burning through our minerals quickly, and like you said, how we have cracks in the foundation of our health, we’re going to start to see our body degrades faster, sooner. So we want to be able to reverse that and discover those cracks.

Can you give some examples of cracks in our foundation? I know we’ve already talked about not going to sleep on time and not managing our cortisol, not managing our stress. What other cracks in the foundation are really common?



[1:46:24] Kristen Bowen: So one crack is about lifestyle. And in that lifestyle, we would put their eating habits, their sugar intake, their sleeping habits, and their mindset. Are they always looking at the glass half full? And so that’s a lifestyle crack. On the nutrient crack, it can be an alkaline acidity issue and if they’re just too acidic. And so one thing that we can do to very quickly course correct that is have them drink some baking soda. But you have to be really careful because drinking that baking soda, if you are low in hydrochloric acid, it can drop you even lower. And so we don’t want that to be a long term solution that you’re doing that every day. But it can jumpstart your body up taking that magnesium and get your numbers moving.

Another thing that it can be is a boron deficiency. More and more people are experiencing a boron deficiency. And so adding a boron supplement can help. Minerals need buddies. And boron is a buddy to magnesium. And so adding a boron supplement can help you uptake and hold that magnesium longer in yourself. And another nutritional deficiency it can be is B vitamins. And so taking a good whole food B vitamin or – I’m a bee pollen girl. I want that natural. And so I do a combination of both. I take bee pollen and a whole food B vitamin, and that can be another crack also.



[1:48:09] Ashley James: Very cool. Yeah. I got my boron concoction right here on my desk. And listening to and following your advice on how to prepare it – and that’s in Episode 341. I believe we get into.



[1:48:27] Kristen Bowen: The second one we did, we talked about that one.



[1:48:27] Ashley James: Yeah. The second one. Right. Yeah. And boron is also just like vitamin K2. For example, it’s necessary in laying of healthy new bone tissue. So the body – obviously, the body is always creating bone tissue. Every seven years we have a new skeleton. And we want to as we age – especially as we’re aging, we want to maintain healthy, strong mineral foundation in our bone tissue. And boron helps to do that. People who have bone spurs like in their wrists or in their feet, that is – or some kind of arthritis where there’s bone spurs, that is a symptom where the – showing that the body’s minerals are out of balance, especially the boron, vitamin K, and the calcium-magnesium because the body is unable to lay bone correctly.

And I’ve seen people who had bone spurs after they corrected it. So they started taking boron. They started getting calcium-magnesium in their body. They started eating healthier. They were correcting that issue. Their body reabsorbed the bone spurs. So the bone spurs went away and the body started laying healthy strong bone tissue afterwards.



[1:49:54] Kristen Bowen: My bone spurs are gone. I can [inaudible 1:49:54] sandals. And it is something that is so doable for people. It’s not out of reach to get rid of those bone spurs.



[1:50:05] Ashley James: Very cool. And the boron that we talked about in Episode 341 is very affordable.



[1:50:12] Kristen Bowen: A little outside of the box.



[1:50:15] Ashley James: You know what? I looked into it more after we talked about it and started discovering other people in the health space doing exactly what you recommend. And there’s articles on it. And there’s lots of episodes of other podcasts talking about it. And there’s lots of health people doing it. So it might be out of the box for some people. It’s very normal for others. But people are getting really great results. And that’s a point.



[1:50:39] Kristen Bowen: I think one shout out people with PCOS, it is not a good fit for them. Because it will increase their body converting estrogen to testosterone. So it is not a good fit for those people with PCOS.



[1:50:56] Ashley James: Would there ever be a time when it is? So once they have corrected the PCOS.



[1:51:00] Kristen Bowen: Yes. Absolutely. But it’s not where they start. Because it will make that testosterone conversion worse. And we don’t want to make that worse. And so it’s a game changer for me. It keeps my arthritis, just my symptoms, my pain down. I love it. But it is not a good fit for those with PCOS.



[1:51:25] Ashley James: Got it. Very cool. Now, Lori asked a similar question to Gretchen, “Does magnesium stop leg and foot cramps? What are the possible causes of leg cramps?” And we did talk about it, that magnesium being the most important thing. But sometimes there are other things like potassium. Can you touch on that?



[1:51:44] Kristen Bowen: Yeah. That voltage issue. We want to make sure that voltage is really strong and potassium is a part of that voltage. And so a lot of people don’t realize we need 4,700 milligrams a day of potassium. And you need to be getting that from your foods, your diet. And so a lot of times that cramping will go away with magnesium. But when it doesn’t, or when it becomes more severe, we know we have a potassium issue. And so getting that potassium from potassium rich foods, coconut water, lentils, avocados, eating 4,700 milligrams a day is crucial. And you’ll see it in your skin. You can tell when someone has that potassium voltage in their skin because their skin just glows.



[1:52:38] Ashley James: Now, most minerals we can’t get from food adequately because of the farming practices. But potassium is one of those minerals we can get from food because farmers will put NPK, nitrogen potassium -and I am totally blanking right now on the other one.  I’m going to kick myself in a second if I can remember. But we put potassium in the soil as part of fertilization. And so I wish they put all 60 minerals in the soil. Sixty minerals and elements, I wish farmers did that. But unfortunately, we don’t. We stopped doing that about 100 years ago. Farmers used to put ash – wood ash in the soil. They burn a forest and put that in the soil. Or we’d all have our own gardens. A-hundred-and-fifty years ago, everyone had their own garden. It was very common. And of course, we heated our house and we cooked food on a wood stove. And we’d always take the wood ash and put it out into the garden and mix it in our soil. And wood ash, the minerals is minerals from the tree that’s leftover. And so we would always remineralize our soil. Up until electricity, we stopped needing wood stoves. And then we started – instead of having these little tiny farms and putting wood ash in soil, now it’s big industrial.

Unfortunately, how we farm now and, unfortunately, with the chemicals, they spray, these chemicals on the soil chelate minerals. So we’re not getting our minerals from the food, unfortunately. And we’re seeing more and more nutrient deficiency and, thus, people getting great results with your magnesium. Now your soak also has other minerals in it. So we’re actually getting other nutrients as well. Is that correct?



[1:54:29] Kristen Bowen: So when you pull – when you’re using a magnesium that comes from the sea that’s made from brine, depending on what nutrients – and they really shift and they vary, and so when you’re using that brine, you’re getting the cofactors that help support the uptake of that magnesium. The reason that we don’t list those is they change every single – every single time, they’re changing. But that brine does have other nutrients that will help you to uptake that magnesium.



[1:55:06] Ashley James: So there’s some co-factors to magnesium in there naturally? Yes. Now Gord says, “I don’t remember this being covered in the last show. I’m cheap. So instead of soaking, I’m applying 20 sprays a day directly to my skin. It stung too much using it straight. So I mixed it with jojoba oil and now it’s good. Is this an acceptable –



[1:55:28] Kristen Bowen: [Inaudible 1:55:29].



[1:55:31] Ashley James: You love jojoba oil?



[1:55:33] Kristen Bowen: I’m loving that she asked this question so that I can help people understand.



[1:55:38] Ashley James: So yeah, so I mixed – he says, “I mixed the jojoba oil and now it’s good. Is this an acceptable way of using the oil? If so, how do you dose it?” I’m assuming it’s a guy asking because his name’s Gord. But it might be the his wife on his account. So either way, this person is taking some of your magnesium mixing with jojoba oil then spraying it on their skin. And they’re wondering Is that enough to absorb the magnesium and get to full cell saturation?



[1:56:06] Kristen Bowen: Right. So the first question I have for them is, what are your goals with magnesium? If your goal is getting to cell saturation, that will not do it. So 20 sprays a day will give you some magnesium and that’s great. But it won’t move your RBC numbers. And the fact that it stung when you sprayed it on, that is a sign that you are very deficient and so your body pulled it in really fast – too fast and that’s why you get that stinging. And we find 100% of the time, when people soak in magnesium that stinging factor, that tingling ,some people call it, always goes away. Now when you take the magnesium spray and you add the jojoba, you incredibly huge amounts slow down the absorption factor because of the oil.

So for example, our magnesium lotion is formulated for babies. It has oil in it and it slows down how much magnesium can go in through the skin. The oil does. And it will never get them to cell saturation. It will help to relieve muscle aches and that kind of thing. But it will not get them to cell saturation. And it’s the slowest way to get magnesium in the body. So adding that oil is actually really negating if your goal is to get to cell saturation.



[1:57:38] Ashley James: Very cool. So he should use a quarter cup and soak and do it every day. Or he could spread it out. He could try doing it every two or every three days to see because he wants to save money. So you are frugal. I know that you don’t like to have people waste the money. You don’t like to waste money.



[1:58:02] Kristen Bowen: I don’t. I don’t want – it kills me when I see – like, a little piece of my soul dies when someone comes in the shop and they were in two weeks before buying magnesium. And I’m like, “What are you doing here? I just talked to you two weeks ago.” Because I know that families are budgeting and there’s a lot of places for that money to go. And I just – I don’t want them to use half a cup thinking I’m getting more benefit. You’re just wasting half of your magnesium. And so I just want to help people maximize their dosage and use the least amount possible for the maximum benefit. And that’s my goal.



[1:58:49] Ashley James: Right. And that’s how I figured out that the optimal level for adults is a quarter cup. And that we don’t actually absorb much more than that. And I believe when we talked about the numbers – and you can you can clarify later. I know you’ll go back and look at all your science data that you have in your Google Doc. But you had told me in the last episode that it was about 24 grams of magnesium in a quarter cup. And then when you test the water – because they’ll send the water to the lab – after someone soaked that four grams are left. And so we’re absorbing about 20 grams of magnesium per soak. And that the body will only absorb as much as it needs so you can’t overdose.

But when I looked at the tingling – because you’re right, I have it on all my skin directly concentrated. I’ve had that happen. Like, it splashes on my skin, it doesn’t burn, it doesn’t tingle. But I remember when I first started using it, it did. So that’s really interesting that the tingling –



[1:59:57] Kristen Bowen: It always goes away, Ashley. That is a sign of magnesium deficiency.



[2:00:02] Ashley James: So interesting.



[2:00:03] Kristen Bowen: Extreme magnesium deficiency. Not just we’re low in magnesium. But when you go and get those people their RBC tested, they’re coming in between two and three usually when it’s tingling on their skin like that. They’re the ones who need it the very, very most.



[2:00:23] Ashley James: Really cool. So that would be a great experiment for people to try. To put it directly on their skin – on a patch of skin and see do they have burning or tingling or none at all. And if they do have that sensation that their body is sucking it in really quickly.


Letty says, “I have a question. I finally ordered my magnesium foot soak. And the first time I did it, I had an ache in my calf and skipped the day. The next day I got a major pain on my side for at least four minutes. Not sure what the deal was with that. Any ideas?”



[2:01:00] Kristen Bowen: Usually, that’s a hydration issue. When we see the pain moving, like one time it was in their foot then it was their side, then it was their shoulder. Typically – not always but typically that’s a hydration issue. And so we’ve got to really increase her hydration when she soaks in the magnesium.



[2:01:18] Ashley James: Got it. And that’s something that I found really interesting that those who are dehydrated will have some pretty negative effects after soaking. Because magnesium – when we increase the magnesium in our body, magnesium actually uses some of our water inside of us making us more dehydrated. So we need to –



[2:01:42] Kristen Bowen: Right. I always say magnesium shines the light on the problem that you’re experiencing. So if it makes you tired, Ashley, it’s shining the light that you are low in potassium. If it makes you cramp, it just shines the light on what’s happening in your body. If we understand the communication and the language that it’s talking in.



[2:02:06] Ashley James: So if they soak in magnesium and they’re wired, they’re just like – and they were expecting to calm down and go to sleep. But now they’re just totally wired. What’s it shining a light on?



[2:02:16] Kristen Bowen: Really tired and wired adrenals. And their adrenals went crazy pulling up the magnesium and didn’t know what to do with it.



[2:02:27] Ashley James: And so when they’re really exhausted after doing – like, they just fall asleep after they soak, you’re saying that’s a potassium deficiency?



[2:02:36] Kristen Bowen: Potassium and tired adrenal. So they’ve got two things going on. Super tired adrenals and not enough potassium in their diets.



[2:02:44] Ashley James: And if they get cramps, you’re saying aches or pains or cramps that are moving in their body.



[2:02:52] Kristen Bowen: [Inaudible 2:02:51] that are moving. What I do is I just keep it, like, a Google Sheet where we transfer it all over to a Google Sheet. And we’re just keeping all of people’s experiences so that we can recognize the patterns. What are the patterns? What are happening for people? And those pains that move when we went back to them and said, “Okay. Let’s try water.” Almost all of them went away when they would increase their water and continue soaking.



[2:03:20] Ashley James: You mean water intake. Like they would drink eight ounces of water a day.



[2:03:24] Kristen Bowen: Yes. Yes. Water intake, not just the water and they’re soaking.



[2:03:26] Ashley James: Right. Right. So they had to really hydrate their body and then you notice that the aches and pains went away. What if they start soaking and then they just get leg cramps or calf cramps? And it’s not like moving pain but it’s calf cramps. Would you say that that is a –



[2:03:41] Kristen Bowen: That’s usually a synthetic calcium issue. So they’ve taken synthetic calcium before and it’s breaking up.


[2:03:50] Ashley James: And what’s the solution then?



[2:03:52] Kristen Bowen: That one, they need to really keep their magnesium levels up to break up that synthetic calcium and really keep their hydration up. And then they need to determine how much of the cramping they can handle. I am someone who just wants to barrel through. Once I understand, it’s like okay. If I know that that’s what’s happening, I just want to barrel through and get it done. Some people are like, “Ah. I don’t want to do that every day.” Well, determine how often you’ll do it because it’s going to be a process to get that done. And then I love having them add some chia seeds that have been soaked in water. And that seems to really help that cramping. Chia seeds are so loaded and usable calcium. And when you soak them in water, the polysaccharides that happen along with the soaking really benefit that calcium cramping from synthetic.



[2:04:48] Ashley James: So when you say chia seeds, you’re ingesting it. You’re not putting it in your foot soak. 



[2:04:52] Kristen Bowen: Yes. Yes. Ingesting. Thank you for helping me clarify.



[2:04:53] Ashley James: Sure. Sure. I just imagined, I was like, “Oh, yeah. Put chia seeds in my foot soak. It be like a day at the spa.


[2:05:00] Kristen Bowen: No. No. Ingesting. Yeah, ingesting.



[2:05:03] Ashley James: How much chia seeds you say? Like one tablespoon a day, ground –



[2:05:09] Kristen Bowen: I use about a tablespoon in about eight ounces of water. And they want that to sit for about 20 minutes. Because when we’re doing that, we’re really increasing the polysaccharides and the benefits of the chia. And it just gives our body more benefit. And so drinking at that point at 20 minutes out seems to really be when that helps with that synthetic calcium cramping.



[2:05:36] Ashley James: Awesome.



[2:05:36] Kristen Bowen: Oh, and then there’s one more. Sometimes people when they soak, the heels of their feet will just crack like crazy. There’s just cracks. And that shines the light on an omega-3 deficiency.


[2:05:53] Ashley James: Very interesting. I had that happen to me. Ha, ha, ha. So what would you do for the omega-3 deficiency? Or what have you seen help? Would you see that adding flax and chia seeds?



[2:06:08] Kristen Bowen: I do – I know a lot of people will do flax and chia seed for that. My body has never been able to uptake omega-3s from flax and chia. And so a good fit for me is cod liver oil.



[2:06:24] Ashley James: Yeah. You know, some people really respond well to the plant based healthy fats. And some people need to step it up a notch with fish. And we need to be willing to experiment with our body. And also know that the source is clean, whatever we’re taking.



[2:06:44] Kristen Bowen: I fought that one for four years. Because I wanted to get it from plants. And I just kept trying and trying and trying. And it just – I don’t understand why, but my body just does not uptake from the flax and chia. I love flax and chia. They’re super foods. And I get other benefits from them that I’ve never been able to personally convert that into an omega-3 change. And so for me, the Rosita Cod Liver Oil within three days, my body – that went away. And that omega-3 started really making a difference.



[2:07:22] Ashley James: Oh, very cool. And so the cracks went away really quickly. But you must have also noticed other benefits like hormonally as well.



[2:07:30] Kristen Bowen: Oh, definitely. Because your hormones need – and I think omega-3 is like a bridge. And they create a bridge in your body. And you can have all the hormones that you need. But if you don’t have a strong omega-3 fatty acid bridge, the hormones can’t walk on it to get to each other. And so that omega fatty acid profile connects your hormones. And so there was an incredible hormone balance that I experienced also.



[2:08:00] Ashley James: Very cool. All right. Getting to the end of the questions. Bonnie says, “If your thyroid was removed, what can you do for improved health? This might be off topic but please go over the benefits of her enzyme and cherry powder.”



[2:08:15] Kristen Bowen: Okay. So when the thyroid is gone, you really need to be working with someone who is helping you to re-balance your body with those thyroid hormones. And testing the complete picture. Not just part of it. And so that’s something that you have just got to find someone that’s helping you do that. The reason that I love enzymes is enzymes help your body to uptake and utilize more of what you’re taking in and make it think of like smaller pieces. And so it’s easier for your body to utilize the goodness of things and it’s increasing that energy factor.

And then the acerola cherry powder, I love because it’s a whole food that has a strong copper core. And that helps to re-balance that copper issue that so many of us have.



[2:09:12] Ashley James: Yes. That’s right. I remember that you said that he has the copper, which is so needed in the production of elastin and collagen. And that copper deficiency can lead to aortic aneurysms. So just some – we don’t want to take it synthetically just copper on its own. We want it a whole food source.



[2:09:36] Kristen Bowen: No. No, no, no. You know, some people will say, “Oh, magnesium is overwhelming.” And I definitely want to listen to that and understand why they’re getting overwhelmed so we can cross that bridge. But when you think about it, you soak in magnesium and we get those numbers moving. Copper is the one that – you can’t just take copper and move your numbers. It’s a much more layered process. And so getting it in foods is crucial.

So many of us are not eating because copper in the soil and there’s just lots of details. And so getting it from whole foods is crucial. And the acerola cherry that we import, it’s grown in a permaculture system. And that permaculture system means that they’re focused on the land and rebuilding the minerals and nutrients. And so because of that, it has a strong copper core. And I just love it. I love what I see it do for people. It helps convert from T4 to T3 because of that copper. It helps with the collagen. You can see a difference in people’s skin. You can see a difference in their immune system. If people’s hair is breaking because of a thyroid issue, you see that change in the first couple weeks of using it. And it’s not only valuable as a vitamin C but when you combine that copper core it has because of the way it’s grown and because of the way it’s processed, it just makes for a super food.



[2:11:13] Ashley James: And it tastes really good. I like it. I like it.



[2:11:18] Kristen Bowen: [Inaudible 2:11:18].



[2:11:19] Ashley James: Sorry?



[2:11:20] Kristen Bowen: Do you think it tastes good?



[2:11:22] Ashley James: I do think – I like it. I like the flavor.



[2:11:23] Kristen Bowen: It’s not one of my favorites. I take it and I’ve figured out a way to take it that I enjoy it. But it took me a little bit to get to that point. But some people love the taste of it.



[2:11:34] Ashley James: It’s not strong. It’s not strong. I really like the flavor. But you know, I drink a lot of water so, I guess, I dilute it. I don’t drink it super concentrated. But I really – I like the flavor. You know, compared to vitamin C powders out there, which are just so tart. It’s not tart. Anyways, I find it enjoyable. Maybe my body craves it because it knows it’s really good

Now you give us a discount and I’m so thankful. So listeners who want to try your acerola cherry powder or the magnesium soak can use coupon code LTH. Get a discount on those. And I love that you do that for us.



[2:12:12] Kristen Bowen: One last thing, can I throw out on the acerola cherry powder, Ashley? And we get a lot of questions on this one. They’ll say, “Kristen, it’s a different color than that was the last bottle I purchased.” We test our acerola cherry powder because they can actually add fillers, and they’re called stabilizers. And because they’re non-food intended, they don’t have to tell you what’s in the food. What it does is it makes the color consistent. I don’t want a non-food stabilizer added to my food to make the color consistent. And so a spring berry is going to be different than a fall berry in color. And so to me, when I see the variance, that’s the variance of nature. And I celebrate that. That means there’s not a stabilizer and the non-food additive put in my food to make it look consistently the same every single time. But we’re so used to that, that when we see something that does have variants we kind of worry. But that’s because we make sure that that non-food additive and stabilizer is never a part of the acerola cherry powder.



[2:13:22] Ashley James: Very cool. That’s such a great explanation. But the spring berry and the fall berry being different colors maybe they have a different phytonutrient profile.



[2:13:33] Kristen Bowen: Absolutely.



[2:13:35] Ashley James: But they offer the – they still are – like, you’re testing it to make sure that there’s vitamin C, and copper, and no heavy metals, and no pesticides or whatever. So you’re testing it for purity.



[2:13:47] Kristen Bowen: Yes. But the rainfall can make a difference. You know, how much rainfall that season got. And so there’s variances in nature and I want to see those in my food because that means I’m eating real food. Not food that’s been covered up and marketed to me that is one thing that it’s not.



[2:14:10] Ashley James: Very cool. Awesome. Well, thank you for that explanation.

Now Jennifer asked – and I love this question – “I’ve been doing the soaks for almost a year. I love them!!! I would like info again and why each of the ingredients needs to be added. How they work in the soak? Epsom salt, baking soda, and boron. Thanks.”



[2:14:31] Kristen Bowen: That’s a great one. So Epsom salts add sulfates. Magnesium chloride does not have sulfates. So Epsom salts – and I think it – was it the first one, Ashley, or the second one in our podcast interview that we went deeper into the Epsom salt?



[2:14:48] Ashley James: I feel like we did it in the second one, 341. But I just really want to clarify because so many people keep asking. “I’ve soaked in Epsom salts for years. Isn’t that enough? Don’t I get enough magnesium for soaking in Epsom salts?”



[2:15:00] Kristen Bowen: No, they don’t. They do not. Epsom salts are great for sulfates. And those are good for your liver. Magnesium chloride does not have sulfates. But Epsom salts cannot get your body to cell saturation. There’s not enough magnesium. So I add them and I just add a cup into my soak. Now I soak in the bathtub. So if you’re soaking in a foot bath, you may want to do a half a cup. And so that’s how much I add of the Epsom salts to make sure that I’m getting those good sulfates.


And then the boron, I just add a pinch, whether it’s in a foot bath or whether it’s in a bathtub. And then the baking soda, you can add anywhere from a quarter a cup to a half a cup in your foot soak. And then in my bathtub, I like to add more than that. I like the charge that I feel in the water. And so I’ll add a couple of cups in my water in the bathtub.



[2:16:03] Ashley James: Now, I didn’t do any of that.



[2:16:05] Kristen Bowen: And you don’t have to.



[2:16:07] Ashley James: I didn’t do any of that. I just soaked with the magnesium.



[2:16:10] Kristen Bowen: Keep it simple and just soak in magnesium. And that’s what I did for the first 15 years. It’s just recently we’ve learned different benefits that people have experienced. And so absolutely you can keep it simple, soak in magnesium. But if you do want to add some extra things – and please note to those people listening, I do not add them every single time. The most common soaking for me is straight magnesium. If you want to though, make sure that – like let’s say your numbers are not moving, add some baking soda in that water. It’s going to help the uptake. Add some boron in that water, it’s going to help the uptake.



[2:16:51] Ashley James: But if their numbers aren’t moving, it might be that their body’s burning. And this is we’re going to get to next. The body is burning through it quicker than it can absorb it.



[2:17:02] Kristen Bowen: Right.



[2:17:03] Ashley James: Right. I’ve also added – so I played around since learning from you about adding some stuff. I’ve added some Epsom salts sometimes because my whole thing is to support my liver. I haven’t done the baking soda yet. I’m going to try that. And then I’ve added hydrogen peroxide. Have you ever done that?



[2:17:21] Kristen Bowen: Oh, I haven’t. How has that gone?



[2:17:24] Ashley James: Well, so I heard from some people that adding hydrogen peroxide to your bath or foot soak actually will help your body increase the oxygen in your body. And I don’t know if I noticed a really big difference. Maybe a little bit of a difference. But I mean, you know, it was just a few times I tried it and just as an experiment. So I was trying that out.



[2:17:47] Kristen Bowen: [Inaudible 2:17:48] hydrogen peroxide in our – not sauna – in our jacuzzi to absorb more oxygen. But I have never even thought of doing that in my foot soak.



[2:18:00] Ashley James: Yeah. And seeing what would happen. So I played around with that. And I have put a little bit of boron in it. My friend, she uses a metal basin – and she’s a huge fan of yours, Naomi, one of the listeners. I’m doing a shout out to Naomi. The extra stuff she was adding like the baking soda and the boron or whatever, it changed the color of her basin. And so her family thought that the magnesium was going to harm the plumbing of the house because it affected the base – the metal basin. And she’s like, “No. No. It’s because I kept adding this baking soda to it.” And so for whatever reason, the metal changed color, basically.



[2:18:44] Kristen Bowen: That’s why one of the reasons that we changed so many of the metal bowls – the stainless steel bowls now are really inexpensive powder coat. And so that’s why we now recommend just soak in ceramic, stoneware, like a crock pot insert, or glass. Because so many people were having issues with the newer bowls that are just a powder coat. Not at that higher quality stainless steel from years ago. We’ve had plumbers, because I don’t want to sell something to people that’s going to harm their plumbing. And they have absolutely no concern whatsoever about magnesium causing a plumbing issue. I would not use it in jetted bathtubs.



[2:19:34] Ashley James: Don’t use magnesium in jetted bathtubs.



[2:19:36] Kristen Bowen: I wouldn’t. Because we have had some manufacturers have a concern that it would cause issues. I’ve never had anybody have feedback that it has. But where the manufacturer had concerns about the plumbing within the jetted bathtub. And so that would be a concern to me. We’ve never had that feedback. But I always want to be conservative on what I’m telling people because we don’t want to cause issues.



[2:20:06] Ashley James: Oh, sure. That makes sense. Very cool. Excellent. So to wrap up the interview, we definitely want to make sure that we fully covered how to maximize –

how to maintain. Once we’ve got – so let’s say we’ve done a 30-day soak – the 30-day challenge. We’ve gotten to 5.0 in the magnesium RBC blood test. Now, we want to get to optimal. Now, we want to get to between, like, 6 and 7. Right? And then we want to hold on to it. So we need to discover burn rate and then we need to figure out where our cracks are. And then we need to know how many times a week or a month do we soak just to maintain it. Because our bodies are constantly using up our magnesium. So walk us through that.



[2:20:52] Kristen Bowen: So what I like to have people do, if they’re interested in understanding their burn rate and how often they need to soak. After they do the 30-day challenge and they get their first number back. So let’s say, they came back at 5.4. Then soak three times a week for another 30 days. And then get tested again. And then if you went down, you know that three soaks a week was not holding your magnesium levels. If you went up, you know that that three soaks a week is going to move you to that 6.3 to 7 that we want you to be at. And so that’s going to help you determine.

And then, you know, I’ve done it for years. And so I even know -okay. In the holiday time, I know that my burn rate increases by about 20%. And so if you’re really into tracking, you can actually track during the holiday time how much you need to soak and determine during different times of your life. Because our stress levels change. Like, for example, we talked earlier with my husband and his amputations, I went back to soaking every day. I did a 30-day challenge just so that I would stay up and at my very best for him. And so understanding that burn rate and that second test of whether you go down or whether you go up.

Now, let’s say, you came in at 6 on your very first magnesium RBC test. Then only soak twice a week and see are you going to hold those numbers? Are they going down? Are they going up? And then depending on that second test, you’ll have a better idea of where you need to soak.



[2:22:44] Ashley James: How long would you wait – how many months would you wait between testing?



[2:22:48] Kristen Bowen: I like to do the first 30 -day and then do the second 30-day. So you’re doing both of those tests within a 60-day period.



[2:22:57] Ashley James: Great. And then after that, how often would you test?



[2:23:02] Kristen Bowen: You know, it just really varies. I do it because I geek out on the numbers now. And I like to have feedback loop to tell people. So that’s why I do it now as often as I do. And I only test probably about four times a year, but that’s a little excessive. I’m doing that to give people feedback and to give them that experience. I would say maybe once a year after that to be tested. After you’ve got that feel for your feedback, just to make sure that you’re maintaining. But definitely, if you wanted to do it more often or if you’re in a high crisis help situation, you definitely are going to want to do that more often.



[2:23:46] Ashley James: Now, you’ve had hundreds of customers report back to you their magnesium RBC numbers, right?



[2:23:53] Kristen Bowen: Right. Thousands now. We’re in the thousands.



[2:23:55] Ashley James: Because you’ve been collecting. You’ve been doing experiments, basically. Like clinical trials, clinical experiments with your customers, where you have them in cohorts and groups together and you do testing after the 30-day challenge. And so that’s how you were able to come to the number. I believe you shared with me 76% of people just off the street. Seventy-six percent of people after doing a 30-day challenge reached 5.0.



[2:24:22] Kristen Bowen: Yes. Most people will reach 5.0. We will have that small percentage that doesn’t. But that showing we’ve got a crack in that foundation and we need to get that figured out.



[2:24:35] Ashley James: And that’s great. It’s actually really good news to get that information. Because then we start looking where’s the crack.



[2:24:41] Kristen Bowen: And so many people will have soaked for four years and they get the benefit, which is great. But then they realize, “If I would have gotten this test four years ago, I could have dug in and really fixed this foundation.” And so I think that testing is crucial to get that.



[2:25:01] Ashley James: So that also answers Gord’s question of being frugal. The best thing to do is to go for go for the 30-day Challenge then get the blood test, see where you are. And then like you said, soak depending on where you are. If you’re still really low, we’ve got to look at the crack in the foundation. But if you’ve got to 5.0, then soak twice a week for another month and then test it. And see did it go up? Did it go down? And then adjust from there. But always look for the crack in the foundation. Because it is free to go to bed earlier. It’s free to drink more water . Like, you want to be frugal. A lot of this –



[2:25:38] Kristen Bowen: Grandma wisdom. It is grandma wisdom, baby.



[2:25:41] Ashley James: It is very affordable to eat more vegetables and eat less crap and eat less sugar. It’s free to eat less sugar or no sugar. So we can save money and save our health by looking at those –



[2:25:54] Kristen Bowen: And, Ashley, I know that my experience is really filtered by my husband’s amputation. So recognize that filter that I’m coming from. But think about it, the car that is sitting out in your driveway, you change the oil on it. You wouldn’t think of not changing the oil because of the expense of the car. Our bodies are worth so much more than that car sitting in our driveway. So much more. They’re irreplaceable. My home right now is shoved full of contraptions trying to offset that this man does not have legs. And they don’t work as well as what those beautifully design Blake’s did for him.

And so I do want to be conservative and I do want to know where every penny of my money goes. And I want to put it in the most powerful places. And building a foundation works. You stop chasing symptoms. Building a foundation reduces everything else. And so putting your money where it will build a strong foundation and taking care of my machine, that’s my body, is important and crucial to me. And coming up with and finding ways to support that, it’s where you put your importance.

You know, I was talking to a lady the other day and she said, “I just can’t afford to go get tested.” And she said, “Kristen, what do I do?” And I said, “Do you really want to know my opinion on this? Or you’re just throwing words at me?” She goes, “No. I really want to know.” I said, “Okay. As I’m looking at you, I can tell that you have very expensive hair upkeep and nail upkeep. And there are places that you’re putting your money that you’re saying this is what I value. You’re saying you want to be healthy but you’re not putting your money where you are saying you want your growth to be. And so you’ve got to determine. And maybe you’ll miss a salon day or two, take that money and put it on building that strong foundation for your body.” And because she was a good friend, she put her arms around me and said, “You’re right. I’ll of think about it.”

But you know, we put our money on what we value. Those cars, we value and we change their oil and we upkeep them. And I value my body and it took a complete health crash on my end before I really understood the value that I’d been given with my body. And so to me, I don’t see it as expensive. I see it as investing in the gift that I was given for my body.



[2:28:48] Ashley James: I’ll give you a good one. I loved it when I heard this one. I just loved it. I have a $200,000 Lamborghini brand new for sale for you. You’re thinking to yourself, “I don’t have $200,000 o put into a Lamborghini right now.” Not many listeners have $200,000 sitting in the bank account ready to hand to me for this gorgeous Lamborghini. Okay. And it’s a total deal. It’s only $200,000 for this Lamborghini. I’m selling it to you. But Kristen, if I were to say that I will sell to you for $70. Can you come up with $70?



[2:29:29] Kristen Bowen: Yeah, I can.



[2:29:30] Ashley James: To buy that Lamborghini?



[2:29:32] Kristen Bowen: Yeah.



[2:29:33] Ashley James: And I mean, I could – if people aren’t into cars, I could say, “I have $1 million house for you and Seattle. Gorgeous million dollar house. But I’m going to sell two for $70. No strings attached. No catch. It’s just $70.” So everyone listening goes, “I can come up with $70.” Because the value is this huge like, “Oh my gosh. I’m going to get a $200, whatever, big car. I’m going to get a million dollar home for $70.” Right?

But when you say do this blood test that’s $50 or $49 and it’s going to help you to dial in and figure out what’s going on. All of a sudden it’s, “I can’t afford that.” And then the next day they go to a restaurant and spend $50 on food at a restaurant. So it’s really about mindset. If we can figure out and put our priorities, like you said, in order. And I’m not saying you have to spend like millions or thousands and thousands of dollars to get healthy. There’s tons of, like you said, free things because most of the foundation –



[2:30:32] Kristen Bowen: Grandma wisdom.



[2:30:34] Ashley James: Grandma wisdom. Most of the foundation of health –



[2:30:35] Kristen Bowen: [Inaudible 2:30:35].



[2:30:35] Ashley James: Right. But that when we hear about something like a magnesium soak or sauna, whatever, it has a price tag. Or acerola cherry powder has – everything has a price tag. Mentally, if we go, “I can’t afford that. That sounds too expensive.” Because I am talking from my experiences what I used to do. “I can’t do that. That’s too expensive.” It was this little voice in my head. And that would raise my cortisol and raise my stress levels. And then inside my head I’d go, “I could never get healthy because I could never afford that.” And this little voice would just sit there on my shoulder and tell me, “I can’t do it because of this. I can’t do it because of this.”

And yet I’ll spend the money, like you said, on the oil change or on a restaurant or on these other things. And it’s like, “Wait a second. I can afford it but some little voice in my head said I can’t.” And so I figured out how to get to Sunlighten Sauna. I didn’t pay all at once. They have a payment plan system and I got on it. And it was like the cost of a credit card payment every month. And I’m paying off my sauna. But for me, it was worth it. Absolutely worth it because of the results I was getting. So we have to prioritize and figure out what is worth it for us. But just make sure that that little voice in our head that says, “I can’t afford that,” that that little voice isn’t increasing our cortisol and stopping us from taking action. Because there’s lots of free things that are really, really affordable things we can do. Like go out and put our feet in the ground every day and ground ourselves.



[2:32:06] Kristen Bowen: That light in the morning. Sleep in a dark room. That doesn’t cost anything. And literally, the emails, since I really started pressing this end to a group of women that I work with, the emails, “Kristen, of all the things we’ve talked about, this has made the biggest difference.” And so there are so many things that we can do to create that help and build that strong foundation.



[2:32:34] Ashley James: Absolutely. I love it. Thank you so much. I can’t believe it’s been two and a half hours. It feels like five minutes.



[2:32:44] Kristen Bowen: Oh my gosh. Ashley, we did it again.



[2:32:45] Ashley James: We did it again. This has been wonderful having you back. And really answering a lot of questions that a bunch of listeners have been asking. And you are so active in our Facebook Group. Thank you so much for coming into the Learn True Health Facebook Group for the last year.

It’s been over a year. I think it’s been about almost a-year-and-a-half that we’ve been working together. I’d have to go back and look when we published the first episode. But it’s definitely been over a year. And it’s been wonderful working with you. You are so loving and compassionate and authentic. And you really – you’re hurt. You truly want people to be healthy.

And please, listeners, go back and listen to Kristen’s first interview if you haven’t already, Episode 294. Because her story just moved me to tears. And it also allows us to illustrate that wherever we are, no matter how sick or unhealthy or wherever we are in our healing journey right now that there is hope. That we can heal. That the body has the amazing ability to heal itself and we can get better.

I healed my chronic adrenal fatigue, my type 2 diabetes, and my polycystic ovarian syndrome, and my infertility. I no longer have those issues. So you can heal your body too, right? It takes time. It takes that dedication. Like you said, it takes grandma wisdom. But we’re going to get there. So thank you, Kristen.



[2:34:10] Kristen Bowen: And action. Taking action.



[2:34:12] Ashley James: Yes. Right. Taking action. Knowing the grandma wisdom and taking action.

But thank you, Kristen, for coming today and answering all those questions, teaching us what we can do to hold on to our magnesium, and discover our burn rate, and maximize everything.

And listeners can go to Use coupon code LTH to get the discount that Kristen gives us. And once in a while Kristen gives us some really great specials as well and we announce those in the Facebook Group. So come join the Learn True Health Facebook Group because we always have something awesome going on there. And Kristen, whenever she holds a special just for Learn True Health listeners, she lets me know and then I post it in the Facebook Group. It’s been such a pleasure having you back, Kristen. Thank you so much.



[2:35:00] Kristen Bowen: The feeling is mutual. Ashley, thank you.



[2:35:01] Ashley James: This has been wonderful. And I can’t believe two-and-a-half hours went by. But you know, we will just talk all day long if I wasn’t looking at the clock. So it’s been great. And I know listeners are going to jump in the Facebook Group and ask you more questions after having you on. So everyone who’s still has questions for Kristen, come in the Facebook Group and ask them and we will continue this discussion there. Thanks so much. And go enjoy the rest of your day with your wonderful husband.



[2:35:29] Kristen Bowen: Oh, thank you.



[2:35:34] Ashley James: Awesome, that’s a wrap. How do you feel it went?



[2:35:36] Kristen Bowen: Oh, great. Hey, should we do a giveaway in the Facebook Group?



[2:35:42] Ashley James: Sure. Yes.



[2:35:44] Kristen Bowen: Okay. Let’s do a giveaway in the Facebook Group. Let’s do a magnesium soak and the muscle cream and the acerola cherry powder.



[2:35:55] Ashley James: Oh. Oh, that’s wonderful. Thank you. 



[2:35:57] Kristen Bowen: And we’ll do that to people.



[2:36:00] Ashley James: So three different winners?



[2:36:02] Kristen Bowen: Yeah.



[2:36:04] Ashley James: Okay, great. Thank you so much.



[2:36:07] Kristen Bowen: Yeah. Just to jumpstart people listening to this episode. Or I don’t know. However you want to run that. But let’s do that for three people that they’ll get the muscle cream, the jug, and the acerola.